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| THOSE OUTSIDE THE CAMP |
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Can a Christian in our society today survive and not go to church? I used to believe it would be impossible for a Christian to maintain his walk and testimony with the Lord in this world outside the denominational walls of this “modern church system.” I’m talking about our normal well known (large or small) liturgical, fundamental, conservative, liberal, Pentecostal/Charismatic denominational/non-un-denominational churches we see on every city street corner ( I hope I didn’t leave any out). I first learned about blogs several years ago when I was invited to one where the question had arisen: how does anyone who called themselves a Christian could survive and not go to church? The friend who invited me (a church-goer), knew I didn’t go to church. I very much enjoyed being a part of that discussion and we all left remaining friends and learning a lot about ourselves and others. This is NOT intended to “bash” churches, people or what we believe. The only reason I bring this up is to open up some discussion and perhaps introduce one another to some people, lives, experiences, thoughts that we may not have considered or ever been exposed to (I’ve learned a lot just reading blog comments here on mychurch). My desire in presenting this blog is to provide us an opportunity to openly, honestly, and kindly share with one another and discover that we are really not as different as we may think and we don’t all have to think or agree (it’s rare to find anyone who does). Foremost in this is: for each of us to come away with an enlarged and elucidated vision of God’s heart and plan and allow His Spirit to touch us and draw us closer to Him and to one another. Our oneness is not in what we believe but in Who we believe. So we already have some common ground. 
Who is willing to break the ice? Charlie |
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| To add a comment to "THOSE OUTSIDE THE CAMP" |
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| February 15, 2007 |
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| Hi Charlie!
I just posted a comment this morning on another blog along these same lines. A nice lady here on MyChurch thinks it's not God's will that she become a member or even attend a local church. I think that's a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Due to my limited time I can't go all out on this, but I'm sure others in the community will pick up the slack. Here's a couple of thoughts though.
1.) The work of the church involves people working together in cooperation. Ministry in isolation tends not to be very effective.
2.) People in need of ministry often end up at a church, the most visible sign of Christ's body on earth. While it may be good for YOU to stay away, does it do these poor folks any good when committed Christians choose not to share themselves and their time?
3.) Christians in isolation tend to form wacky opinions and interpretations on a lot of issues, both Biblical and extra-Biblical, because they tend not to have anyone to dialogue with, to exchange ideas with, for accountability, etc.
4.) Christians who remain isolated do little if anything to strengthen Christ's body. What if all of us followed a policy of division rather than union?
There's a few off the top of my head. I may contribute more later. Here are a couple of other relevant blogs on this topic:
Why Go to Church?"
Why I don't "belong to a Church.
How important is it??
~mike |
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| February 15, 2007 |
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| Mike, thanks for writing. I followed each of the blogs you listed. I do want to touch on each of your 4 points later, but I've gotta leave for a bit.
For now, let me just say that I fully understand your position. I do agree to some extent on all you listed, BUT..I also have something to add to each. I'm not advocating everyone needs to get out of church. It's really not about church at all.
More later,
Charlie |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Mike's list disadvantages of NOT attending a local church
1.) The work of the church involves people working together in cooperation. Ministry in isolation tends not to be very effective.
Charlie's comment: 1.) I suppose that would depend upon your target and size of invlovement. I think more about a one-on-one with an individual or family. Can you imagine the impact we could have if everyone found just one at a time to shepherd? I would imagine that was how the gospel was spread in the 1st century.
We never know who or where the Lord will start with someone. The first step is to see if a relationship will develop, if it doesn't that's ok. We look for those with a seeking heart, although they may not realize they are seeking God yet. You can start with inviting them to dinner. Later do an activity together. Be a friend first. Let them open up.
Also we have many Christian friends. We find opportunities as often as possible to get together for what I call the 3Fs. Fun, Food and Fellership. It can happen at a park, activity, home or group gathering. That keeps us pretty busy. That's not counting the e-mail/internet fellership (and fun) and phone calls during the week.
Charlie - you've gotta want fellership and keep your eyes and heart open..it can happen anytime, anywhere with just about anyone.
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Not to contradict you, Charlie, but I meet lots of folks who'd welcome the chance to shepherd someone. It really is necesary and besides, being "a guide to the blind" dovetales nicely with my fleshly self-image.
But what about submitting myself to spiritual direction? You know, finding someone who's even slightly ahead of me on the Way and tagging along so I can learn from them and considering it no small thing to deviate from their example. The line's ever so much shorter over there. |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I have lived this "outside the camp" life for close to 30 years now. I have been blessed to be surrounded by saints of all ages and stages. I spent 10 years or more single (separated) and I fully gave myself as best I could to make myself available to the saints and seek out others I could submit to. My job involved extensive travel, and with help of the I-net, I found many a"outer-campers" all over the country and got to visit and stay with them as I passed through. It was a wonderful learning and eye-opening experience. I do have several that I consider my accountability partners. My wife also does a good job :). Are you volunteering brother Dan? I would be honored.
Michael, I could share many tragic and abusive situations I have experienced and seen. That is just human nature whether in or out of church unfortunately. I agree with you, small groups are very conducive to growth and life-changing relationship. I think the risk outweighs the chance of being despitefully used/abused.
Charlie |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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Michael, the Intelligence Community is famous for developing structures to maintain accountability and yet an Aldrich Ames or John Walker still manages to slip through from time to time. The human factor will always be the weak link and the best we can ask of our structures is to limit an individual's ability to do real harm. I took a couple of runs at recounting what I've seen and experienced under various models but I keep deleting it as neither glorifying to God nor edifying. Let's just say that no structure seems immune.
The way many of us have learned Scripture means that while we're familiar with verse-length soundbites we don't know our Bible. That makes us susceptible to anyone who can cleverly string things together.
And we dishonor that "great cloud of witnesses" by pretending that either they don't exist or that they don't have anything to teach us. So even though "there's nothing new under the sun", we greet every sunrise as an unprecedented event.
Is it any surprise then that, having no grounding in God, these cultural, Biblical, and historical presumptions have cut us loose from our moorings and set us adrift?
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| This is an amazing line of questioning b/c for so many people in this world, regular church attendance is impossible. Why then does Christianity flourish in a region that cannot regularly receive tithes and offerings...b/c the church was supposed to be much deeper than we americans understand. Take this war that is now existing between traditional churches demanding weekly services and the "arrival" (they have been around forever) of cell structures...here an idea, the two are supposed to co-exist. Corporate worship is supposed to be a culmination of all the fellowship, accountability, and discipleship that is occuring EVERYDAY. When I was overseas, we starved for eachothers ministry...every opportunity to be with another believer was golden. When we all found out we were all in the same region, we would hold spontanious services, bring food, and worship together before the Lord until we were exhausted...and we saw awesome miracles take place. So to answer your question, I will say again as I have stated so much...sin is rarely found in action but instantly seen when considering intent. If you are demanding to not be a part of God's body and walk in the manner of Jesus Christ Himself b/c of personal grievance, you my friend are dealing with an apparant past hurt and bitterness is an issue that must be dealt with. If instead you are part of various Bible study groups...I would only urge you that every so often, all of the people involved with these different groups should come together as a corporate body...a relationship should and can exist. Our church is formed on this premise. I feel that personal ministry will never be successfully employed in a congregational setting, but is almost a guarantee over dinner and a good cup of coffee. Charlie, you have been around on this earth much longer than I have and have been a Christian much longer it seems as well...how strong the Christians in america would be if people realized that church doesn't make Christians...but how powerful the church would be if people realize that Christians make the church |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I just praise God for what He is doing in the little valley I live in. Our thur. night bible study has turned into what we call a seekers meeting. Pastor teaches first then we spend the rest of the time worshipping and praying and being in God's presence. What is really neat is that for the past couple of months people from other congregations have been coming out on thur. I became friends with some women from other congregations and we get together throughout the month just to fellowship. Our valley also has all church meeting once a month and different congregations host. Before I got to know these women I was almost afraid to get to know them. Would they believe the same as I do? Well of course no does all the time,but that didn't matter as long as Christ was our focus. If He was the center. I have been encouraged and have learned so much by our fellowship. And have truly come to understand that we,the church, are the body of Christ. That is why I wrote different congregations instead of different churches. Holli |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| This is what I love, hearing from the saints and learning more about what God is doing in their lives. I don't know how long I will be able to keep this up, but for now..I'd like to address each one individually. It's not easy for me to limit my thoughts and words, but I'm gonna try :).
PastorDan wrote:"The way many of us have learned Scripture means that while we're familiar with verse-length soundbites we don't know our Bible. That makes us susceptible to anyone who can cleverly string things together.
C: I couldn't agree with you more! We must be intimately connected with God's book, cuz that's His love letter to us to show us His heart. David saw that and he was able to go deeper than the written code and see God's heart behind His words and law. We need the LIVING word, that cuts all the way down into the thoughts and intents (motives) - our heart.
Michael:"Charlie: I find that business travel, which I do much more of lately, really disrupts the rhythm I've developed. I don't like that. I'm impressed you found a way to make it work.
C: All I can tell you bro is to use the I-net and get to know folks cyberly. You will be surprised how God can arrange things (in fact, I think it's already started). I had a web site up where I would let folks know my schedule and I would be amazed at how so many would contact me and it just "so happened" I would be near them and our schedules would mesh (not always..but enough). If God set you in that job Michael, He has something in mind, more than your work. Let Him lead you..we both know He wants to ;-).
Web: "When I was overseas, we starved for each others ministry...every opportunity to be with another believer was golden. When we all found out we were all in the same region, we would hold spontanious services, bring food, and worship together before the Lord until we were exhausted
C: Brother I believe that's how it should be. I used to think that the only way that would happen in America would be under persecution. My travels have shown me there is already that heart and "underground" network being prepared. There may come a time here where we all will be tested just how badly we want to come together when the "convenience" is removed.
Web: "If you are demanding to not be a part of God's body and walk in the manner of Jesus Christ Himself b/c of personal grievance, you my friend are dealing with an apparant past hurt and bitterness is an issue that must be dealt with. If instead you are part of various Bible study groups...I would only urge you that every so often, all of the people involved with these different groups should come together as a corporate body...a relationship should and can exist.
C: There have been many hurts and some bitterness in me along the way, but I believe that today I can say I'm not aware of any. I will admit that I have certain "issues" with a few individuals, but God is continually working on that too. I'm not demanding anything or trying to start anything. I just enjoy fellership in the body of Christ and try not to limit it to one location, group or "same mind" thinking. For Alice and I, this is how God is teaching us "poor in spirit" - by learning from others.
We find at this time our I-net fellership has been very helpful. We live out in the country and so it's about an hour drive in any direction for us to get with saints physically. Computers and phones are wonderful! We also have gatherings and attend gatherings, and the Lord surprises us with impromtu get togethers, but you are right, we do need eyeball to eyeball fellership with others.
Holli: "Our valley also has all church meeting once a month and different congregations host. Before I got to know these women I was almost afraid to get to know them. Would they believe the same as I do? Well of course no does all the time,but that didn't matter as long as Christ was our focus. If He was the center. I have been encouraged and have learned so much by our fellowship.
C: Holli, that is wonderful! I love to hear these kinds of stories. You hit the nail on the head..Christ is the focus, the center. All Christians can do this. The Spirit is our oneness, yes we will have differences, but if we keep that focus you mentioned we can learn so much from others, bless them and best of all glorify God! What a testimony to the world and unseen realm that people with so many different backgrounds, strong convictions, and equally strong opinions can let the presence of the Lord overshadow all that and be glorified. Unity in diversity and diversity in unity manifested that Christ be preeminent! I am so glad you are getting to experience that now..cherish it!
Charlie - thanks for the fellership :) |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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Following Jesus is a WAY of LIFE. I love the example of Jesus who walked the streets and whoever He encountered each would have a very individual way He touched them so phenomenally.
One other thing i love about Him is He would even sit and eat with the pharisee's , he would eat with sinners.. those of ill reputation. He blew the religious rules off the doors and fellowshipped with women nobody would be seen with, He came close and touched those required to yell" UNCLEAN!",and He taught people to love their enemies. All very peculiar to the world.
I often wonder how we could of come so far away from the simplicity of His message. The synagogues run by rulers of the religious sect tossed Him out as they also did His followers for simply speaking TRUTH. I pray HE would be recognized as we continue to grow up in HIM, and the unrecognizable would no longer be part of our example.
bless u saints! Gail |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| What is church? Is church something we do or something we are? Acts gives a good picture of what church should be. Maybe we should try to do what the early Christians did. |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Hi Gail, your so right, Jesus left us lots of examples, although He rarely spoke directly about "church" or how to organize it. I wonder why?
Now that's a novel idea Z&J. How do you think we can bring that to pass in the 21st century? I agree.."we BE da church." What's the next step?
Charlie |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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Ummm lemme see..........Be led by the Spirit of God?
gail |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I just viewed Charlie's pictures of the "Fellership" that goes on in their community. I see alot of good things going on in the pictures. Lots of saints, prayer, Bible Study, worship (Charlie, is that you playing the guitar? :), and let's not forget lot's of food. I would hardly call this "isolation" as we understand it today. Please take the time to look at the pictures before you pre-judge our brother. I do understand that you are all just commenting on the blog, I am not criticizing anyone, just contributing my thoughts. |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Charlie, you and Alice certainly do not sound like "lone ranger" Christians. You have "fellership"...you are meeting together with other brothers and sisters. You are not isolating. I think what you have is "church" :-)
Sue, I'm with you on this one sister. Love you... |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Hey Charlie, HAPPY BIRTH DAY!!! May God bless you and may this be your best year yet!
your sis,
Mary Ann |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I was hoping we could keep that quiet :). But thank you everyone for helping me remember I'm a year older..I really needed that!
Charlie |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| It's True! Happy Birthday, Charlie! |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I was thinking along the lines of living our lives together. What some would call having "fellowship" on a daily basis. Living and working and hanging out together. |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| I'm wondering, as I read other comments, why we have to be exclusive in our thoght about fellowship/church or house churches vs congregations. I've seen the most impact when the church embraces small groups. To me part of the struggle comes in when you look at what happens after the fellowship has been there for a length of time. In general small groups can begat communities which then go through cycles and either continue, or fail. If I remember S. Clark wrote a book years ago about the seasons, or stages of community. I;ve seen group after group rise and fall. To give a point to my thinking...I think, when we chose the lone ranger , or "outside the box" lifestyle we can be very selfish. I've done both, and find that if I'm talking about me as a sing;e person, it doesn't matter very much, but when I include my kids, and then look towards that next generation, and next generation..how do we create foundations that can carry them through. To me this can only be done in an organised setting. One where you either adopt someone elses vision, or grow up your own vision. This means creating foundations, and in particular the ability to reproduce, and grow to maturity. That means that as a group you have to create a catechism, a liturgy of some kind, your own structure of theology, and a safe place for all these things to exist. Do I make sense? If we don't do these things we are only creating a spiritual hedonism that's there to feed our senses and sensibilities. We aren't building upon rocks, but upon shifting sand. That's not to say we might not have a wonderfully spiritual time, but it's lost ot another generation to try to recreate what they saw in us, kinda like having to reinvent the wheel each and every generation.
Sounds tedious to me...... |
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| February 17, 2007 |
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| Alice, Dennis, Charlie, I can see godly wisdom in all the perspectives shared here. I used to think there was only one way to worship; only one way acceptable to the Lord. That is what the Catholic Church taught (I think they've started to loosen things up a bit...recently). Then I started reading the bible and asking the Holy Spirit to help me understand scripture. I joined a non-denomination church and started thinking their way was the only way.
Then I took this course "Perspectives on the World Christian Movement." WOW, this was mind altering for me. I learned that God desires worship from all peoples, tribes, and nations, all cultures all ethnicities (pant ta ethne). He wants to be glorified, praised, honored, worshiped in a multitude of ways.
This was truly liberating for me. I am a bit reserved in my style of worship (most likely from my upbringing in the Catholic Church). Many people have observed over the years that this “reserved” form of worship is dead, not spirit filled, unauthentic, etc. I still did not feel moved to raise my arms in the air, dance in the isles or yell “amen brother, preach”. Now, I know that my relationship with the Lord is not based on outward manifestation to other believers. I am free to worship “reverently” and they are free to worship “enthusiastically”.
The burden and guilt of “doing it like those people” was a hindrance to my walk and I believe it was from Satan. God doesn’t expect or want us to be clones.
Anyhow, as David the Beloved would say, “that’s my 10 cents” ;-)
peace, grace, love,
Mary Ann |
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| February 17, 2007 |
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| Can you imagine how God feels when He sees His children fighting and bickering and refusing to accept one another as family members cuz they do things so different, talk funny or go to the wrong "church?"
I hear so many say, "well, I just happen to believe the Word of God!" Hmmm? So do I. How can we base our "fellowship" or acceptance of one another as part of God's family on what we have been taught the Word of God says? What WE believe is the INTERPRETATION of what WE believe the Bible says or teaches. We might have been taught wrong, or misunderstood, or blindly accepted what so and so taught. Our Christian life is a journey and it's a growth process. The better/deeper we get to know the Lord the more we should see things in a deeper more and meaningful way. We might change our thinking or just not be as dead sure as we once were (that's what shelves are for, right Sue?).
Our oneness is not based on agreement. When we are born again, we are born into a NEW family. Our core DNA is God's holy Spirit that He has implanted into us. God is spirit. Our direct link to Him and one another is now His Spirit dwelling in us. His Spirit, that ONE Spirit IS our oneness.
I'm so glad MyChurch.org is here. May our eyes and hearts continue to open to the Lord and one another so we can see our family from God's perspective and not the labels and badges man has put upon us.
I love God's family and I'm so glad to meet some of my brothers and sisters for the first time. Howdy, I'm Charlie, your long lost brother, we have the same Dad :).
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| February 18, 2007 |
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| When I first became a Christian I attended traditional churches. A friend played some upbeat "git down funky like monkey" style music and I found that I really liked it. Back at the church I was told that this was all Satan's music. I felt guilty for liking the upbeat, praise music and decided to try and be content with the funeral style of worship that I was told was the true way we honor and worship God.
One day I was given The International Inductive Study Bible, and I decided to read it through, and answer all the questions, from cover to cover. When I read Psalm 150 it hit me like a ton of bricks--the music I really liked and was told it was Satan's music is the kind of music the Bible stated that God desires in His sanctuary. Well, you could've knocked me over with a bulldozer. Upon further study I've learned that much of what traditional churches do are just that; the traditions of men. It's not that these traditions are wrong or evil in and of themselves; but they are not the standards by which we judge the way others worship God. We call the style of worship that I really enjoy participating in "Contemporary Worship", but it seems to be as old as King David, if not older.
I find it very sad that churches split over these issues. The pride of man blinds the eyes of man and this limits his ability to truly worship God in a powerful way.
'at's me 10 cents worth; and when you consider the devaluing of the dollar, the increases in sales taxes, this is a bargain. |
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| February 19, 2007 |
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| Larry Norman (an old Jesus People guy who was greatly used to bring about "contemporary Christian music) once said David was the original "rock 'n roller." He picked up a ROCK and ROLLED the giant :).
Charlie |
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| February 19, 2007 |
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| David even got up his wife's nose with his, to quote Martha Reeves, "Dancing in the streets"! When I go to a traditional church now I feel like the midevil monks; I want a small whip to whip my back and cry "WOE IS ME! WOE IS ME!" Mind you, the traditional churches are really good for funeral services, they're very sombre. But for worship services I want a good contemporary "Gittin' down funky like a monkey in pu'lic if you will" church.
Always remember, a penny saved is a congressional oversight. |
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| February 23, 2007 |
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| What I have to say here, is in no way said by means of condemnation to those who still gather in organized churches. There are many wonderful and wise saints in the traditional church system, so this is in no way directed towards individuals, but towards an institution.
Back about fifteen years ago, the Lord spoke to me and showed me very clearly that He is not pleased with the "thing" that most Christians view as church. More specifically, He is not pleased with the division between clergy and laity, each son of God has been gifted by the Holy Spirit and God has in many ways been stifled, in that the laity have been silenced. This is NOT what God intended and finds it's roots in ancient Rome, not in the scriptures and not in the mind of God. At first, I was offended by this and doubted that it was the Lord that I had heard, but over the next few weeks and months, He confirmed His word to me until I was absolutely convinced.
The truth is, that we ARE the church, and God desires for His people to sit in informality and for the Holy Spirit to move as He sees fit, and not to be pressed into a predictable Sunday morning servive at 11am. To be honest, I view each and every day as a Sunday, not just one day per week. No one man was meant to elevated to a place pof prominence, whilst others sit passively in rows, taking on board what one man says with all the error and particular bent of this one man.
He desires for brothers and sisters to be able to use their giftings, share their hearts, bring questions, cry with each other, rejoice with each other, in a place of spontinaeity.
Now, I realize that churches are not totally devoid of this, and that truth can be found in a church building, but there is also a stifling there that is in no way, plesing to the Lord.
I know this will probably ruffle a few feathers but I'm used to that.
All I am is a messenger, so I ask you this. Instead of lashing out, take what I have said before the Lord. I'm not asking you to believe me, I am asking you to believe Him.
If He will not confirm this to you, then you may call me a liar, but if He DOES confirm it to you, what will you do about it?
As for me, I left the churches because I didn't want to be involved in something that displeases the Lord.
I will leave this then, between you and our God.
Blessings
Cameron. |
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| February 23, 2007 |
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| Thank you Cam for your thoughts and admonishments. I'd like to address briefly this comment you made:"He desires for brothers and sisters to be able to use their giftings, share their hearts, bring questions, cry with each other, rejoice with each other, in a place of spontinaeity."
I truly agree with this. I believe I Cor. 12 is speaking of this very thing. God has placed EACH member in the body as it pleased HIM. Also the body is designed to function according to the gifting of EACH body member by allowing the Spirit to flow and operate as HE (the Spirit) wills.
The way most (not all) churches are structured, it is not possible to allow this to happen. As you pointed out, just having rows of chairs, pews and a podium/stage sets the stage (no pun intended) for how the saints will percieve their place, basically as the audience. Is that not laity?
I'd like to pose a question and get some dialogue going - someone may even want to open up a new blog for this discussion. My question is this: what if next Sunday morning while the sermon is being preached, someone stood up and asked a question? How would that be handled? If enough saints did that or were allowed to, do you think a change in structure might be in order? OK..I asked more than one..sorry.
So, what say you dear saints? (oops another one)
Charlie
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| February 23, 2007 |
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| Charlie, love this blog! I think our pastor would be cool with asking a question here and there! (Right, Mark?)
Cameron, I personally am always very careful about applying the messages I receive from the Lord to other people. It reminds me of the whole Romans 14 thing, concerning personal convictions.
Also, Paul acknowledges the spiritual gift of teaching more than once in his letters, which is basically what a pastor does. Yes, some people become teachers/preachers who don't have this gift, and that is typically unfortunate. But when you find someone who is authentically gifted (like our pastor!), the Lord has a way of opening up the Scriptures and speaking right to your heart in a life-changing way. It isn't a bad thing when it goes right.
Amen that you don't restrict your worship of our King to just Sundays too, bro. ~blessings, mike |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| Charlie, you are a genius with a tactful big mouth (that is a compliment). I was once part of a church that was led by the elders of the church and the qualifications of what elder meant was as outlined in Timothy and Titus. There were three services on Sunday. The first service was open...meaning that if any elder in the church wished to pray, read a scripture, lead the fellowship in a song, etc...it was open ground only everything was to be done in order. In two years there I never saw one interuption amazingly. The second sevice was an hour of intimate fellowship where the adults would gather in the assembly hall and eat together while they would pray with eachother and seek/give personal counsel. The third service was a time of teaching (Q&A). This fellowship had something every night...it was unbelievable. I think those things are dependant upon the people that are congregating. It is common in our church plant to have questions in services...we view it as involvement. Why preach the Word of God and not allow questions...it would be like teaching Calculus and not allowing questions. I believe that if every body of believers would review all of their traditions and ask themselves why they are doing what they are doing, I fear they would find three dominant answers.
1) It's what we have always done
2) Every one else does it
3) It makes it easier for me
All three answers are the reason "church" is losing its relevancy. I see a lot of hurt and aggrivation and frustration as I read the various responses of the readers. Brothers and sisters, this horse is sick, not dead. Look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. We were commanded in the old testament to congregate once a week. Jesus did not negate that as He was found in the temple on every sabbath. Jesus did state He was Lord of the Sabbath, which He is...but He also said He did not come to undo the Law, but to fulfill it. He led us in baptism. He led us in our responsibility to congregate. Be very careful on what you say God told you to do because it is very easy to rationalize the voice of God as your motivation to act in frustration. I will promise You He will never lead you to break His commandments. We are responsible for the direction of the body...the church. And I say that much of the problems we are facing within the church are because we ourselves gave the pastoral position a superhuman recognition and voluntarily gave up over the last 100 years any and all resposibility to keep the "church" moving to those who stand behind the pulpit and are now dealing with the results of generations of mistakes and spiritual laziness. Don't kill this horse...revolutionize it. I agree that traditional church (pews/pulpits) may not be the thing to do...and that spontaneous assemblies could work and should...but we need to be doing something. I sought the Lord for years to be a part of a body of believers that wanted to experience a deeper relationship with the Lord and were willing to sacrifice all personal ideas about what they felt church should be and were willing to go back to the Bible and apply it...and I have. They are all over. One thing to remember in closing...not to dissagree with the elders of the church I first mentioned...but the letters to Timothy and Titus concerning the qualifications of elders and deacons we written to the heads of those churches, the pastors (Timothy and Titus were both pastors) Guys, every body must have a head. God set that up. If you fight against accountability, you are fighting God and accountability can never be applied with instability. Plain and simple. |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| David, ahh the devils music remark has reached these ears on many occasions. I was once solicited (that's what I call it) by an unamed church to come on staff as their worship pastor. He "wanted to see a more contemporary service) and told me that he had been referred to me and felt as if God was saying I was the one. Then he proceeded to say he didn't want all that rock and roll guitar stuff...that stuff was wordly. I am not there. I hate that remark. Funny enough, when the old hymns were written, they were not received b/c they were also written in the contemporary music of their day...and that was satanic. Like I said, our problems are our fault |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| Well, it is not my intention to make points or even to place scriptures here to back what may appear to be my stance, which always tends to end up in argy bargy, but when the Lord spoke to me fifteen years ago, it was quite a turning point in my life. Before that time, I had been an avid church goer, you might say in many ways, the model disciple.
It was the institution of the church that the Lord spoke to me about, not the people. Throughout the last fifteen years, I have talked to many Christians and Pastors about this, most have agreed, but have done nothing because they are happy with the familiar. Many feel threatened, Pastors are afraid of losing their positions, salaries etc. One Pastor I spoke with did see the truth but his wife persuaded him to break into cell groups, thereby maintaining his control.
I really had hoped that you would take what I spoke before the Lord, in stillness and in prayer, to see what He has to say about it. After all, it is the living Word of God that the scriptures witness to.
I realize that many, maybe most will remain in their churches, I have found that to be a given, but this message is for those who are seeking something far deeper, a walk of faith that will lead them out of the familiar where their dependency will be on God and not man.
It is a path fraught with dangers, disappointments, humiliation and all manner of trials, but it is also a wonderful path of faith, joy and nearness to God like I personally have never known prior to leaving the traditional church system.
Remember that the first century church met in homes and there were elders appointed and deacons. Do you honestly think that they erected a platform and pulpit in the house and all others remained silent? Of course not.
Paul says in 1 Cor: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
A Pastor or Elder, Deacon etc, is just a simple believer the same as you or I. Their calling is not a title or a position and certainly not a position of power. What are they then? They are called to a certain function, which is to edify the body of Christ but they are not called to dominate a gathering of the saints. What is preaching?
Preaching is prophecy, expounding the Word of God for the building up of the saints in order to facilitate their giftings and encourage them to also function, to apply and use the talent/s that God has also given to them, which is primarily for the house of faith.
Prophecy is edification and edification is prophecy. It is like an architechtural term. So, the Pastor or elder is saying "I will architecture you" Now, they are to be given double honour because they labour in the word and doctrine and should be given the place to bring forth their teachings, but they are accountable to both, the head, which is Christ, and also to the witness of the body.
I have been in many gatherings where I have seen this happen and one is not allowed to just sit comfortably but is encouraged to function and to share their hearts, struggles, victories, or sing a psalm or song, or give a teaching or testimony or offer up a prayer, and it is the most wonderful thing to behold! Then the scriptures come to life and sing to that very experience and the experience itself sings (harmonizes" with the scriptures.
I won't say any more at this point, but if you want to know where most of our modern day church practices come from, there is a book I can recommend, which is: The Open Church by James Rutz.
I do however still ask of you, that you take this to the Lord (Pastors included). Don't take my word for it, but will you take His?
Blessings to you all and have a fine day in our Lord
Cameron. |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| One last thing, somebody mentioned opening up their church more. Well, this would certainly be a step in the right direction but I personally have never seen it work. I think you would end up with, a hybrid. However, it is worth a try if your Pastor is agreeable.
Cameron. |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| Cameron, you say that it is not your intention to make points, then you make them...it is your intention. We can take scripture and do anything we want to with it to justify a point...by the way, the exact phrasing is prophecy is FOR edification, it is not itself edification and it is much deeper than the recital of scripture...it is a direct word from God that strikes an intimate chord in the heart of those to whom it is directed. That is why the lost will say surely God is among you. Also, to whom were most of Paul's letter written, the ORGANIZED new testament churches. Cameron, these were organized bodies of believers who met regularly. Timothy pastored a church with 10000+ members. You keep claiming the Lord told you...that puts you in a bad position when attempting to get involved in a conversation. Because I can tell you that the the Lord miraculously open doors for me to get where I am today in the position I am in...read my blog on this story must be told. If we go that route, we start having God-told-me fights. I know this, God will not lead us against His word. It is God who ordained the priesthood, the Holy Spirit who led the apostles to choose the early church leaders, and they led churches. The 5-fold ministry is clearly spelled out in the Bible and you cannot say that God has told you the Bible is wrong. That is what the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses say...and they are cults. In every fiber of you message, there are strains of frustration and bitterness...the word you say the Lord gave you seems more of a rationalization for a deep wound...that I do not blame you for...but one cannot claim that the word of God led Him to violate even the path Jesus laid down for us and the Holy-unalterable scripture He has left for us to follow. It is His Word. And I agree that many churches do not themselves follow the instructions left for us (one will have a word, a hymn, etc) and many believers turn over their responsibilities to one single man...but that is not all bodies of believers. I am part of a church that is reflection of the New Testament church as presented in the Bible. Remember this as well in your thoughts, Paul was the ONLY apostle who did not make his living preaching the Gospel and he did that by choice because of those he was trying to reach...yet stated he should have every right to...you cannot invalidate "a laborer is worthy of his wages and double honor for those who labor in Word and Doctrine"...I have no doubt that the Lord could have revealed to you in your heart things the church is screwing up...but you need to go back to that moment and check that you didn't allow your hurt to decide what were the steps from there and pack that in the message as well. |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| I'm loving this, but I'm no genius. I'm a coward (like Gideon) and cautious of what I say :). I want to see God come in to all this, and I believe He has.
I'm not trying to change anything, but I see need for change first in me, then in how we can best glorify God and relate to one another and those "outside" (believers and UNbelievers) to encourage one another. I don't believe there is any "RIGHT" structure, program or method. I still say you can't beat a one-on-one.
Speaking of that, we are having some friends over, so y'all continue to fellership and I'll be here in spirit and check it when I can.
Thank you for all your input and even the lurkers. Y'all have a great weekend.
Charlie |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| Webyouthpastor, Sounds like he was telling you he wanted the music to be different but without really changing any of it. I read in several places that the old hymns were written with the bar music of the time in mind. According to their "traditions" we all have to dress up to look like cold, inanimate maniquins in a store front window display. It's that man made tradition, "You owe God your best so you have to wear your best." No wonder God told Isaiah, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways." |
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| February 24, 2007 |
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| Aigh!!! Nuff said on that one David...you are so right. Well I guess I will just give God everything I've got. |
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| February 25, 2007 |
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| Webyouthpastor
I read your post carefully and it is a temptation on these blogs to just fire off an answer in defense of one's position. I was tempted to do that last night. I realized though, that if I had done that, it would have been devoid of love for you and others, so here is what I'll do instead.
I will take what you have said before the Lord and meditate on those things. I don't take what a brother says to me, lightly. I'd like to know if there is truth in what you say before I come back to you, ok?
Once I am able to do so in the right heart, I'll come back to you but I'm not sure when that will be. Thank you for your input.
In the meantime, have a good day in our Lord
Sincerely
Cameron. |
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| February 25, 2007 |
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| Cameron, well said. In your defense, if the Lord has spoken then all who follow Him will in turn follow your words IF that is the road the Lord has for them to walk. Prophecy is interesting because it is not always for everybody. There were prophets in Israel whose prophesies had no effect on Judah, and vica versa. Something to think of...
God will call people to their own death to reach those who are lost...ask Nate Saint (End of the Spear) so understand that God will also call people to organized religion to reach those trapped in religion. I say all the time, if being in a church makes one a Christian, then being in a garage makes one a car. Rarely is a person who is unable to attend regular church services but knows the Lord uncertain or better yet unwaivered in their walk...but I can't even begin to count the examples of people who attend every service possible who can't maintain their walk when the wind blows the wrong direction.
The Lord has many times showed me things...some are for me, some are for individuals, some are for groups, and some are for all. Weigh that carefully because there are many of us who love the Lord who are walking the path He has put us on. Read my blog "This story must be told"...it is a minor account of what the Lord has done to bring me to the church I am at...and I was done with churches. I have been lied to, lied about, cheated, and undersold at almost every church I have been called to. And to clarify, I will not take a position unless the Lord personally speaks to me about it.
That sounds wishy washy but when it concerns His people, I want to know I am sent. The Lord spoke directly to me about the place I am at and the places I have been. Consider that.
In no way was my comment to call you a liar or false prophet and in rereading it it seems...harsh. To that extent, you are my family and you have my apology...but in this gift there is an extreme responsibility...
By the way, I am on my way to church. And to maybe give a litte hope, we are a body consisting of people who are sick of religious tradition for the sake of meing traditional. We evaluate weekly what we are doing, why we are doing it, and if it is working. We have an open floor for comments, crits, and suggestions. We meet regularly during the week (every night almost) and are in contant communication. We only have one formal service a week where questions are viewed as involvement, everything else is over dinner or at someones jobsite...so it's possible. Very difficult, but possible. |
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| February 25, 2007 |
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| Cameron, to expand on my initial comment, it is obvious that there is a wound somewhere concerning the church (frustration at a minimum) so do be careful with you direction...it's prophecy 101. If a person who claims to be a prophet refuses to be questioned, he is not a prophet b/c the Bible teaches us to test a prophet. In ourselves we must be sure not to cross the line between what God has revealed to us and what we feel we should do with it. And I will restate, when we say "God said" than we have taken all forms of conversing off of the table. If a person in any way dissagrees with you, by saying God says you have placed them in a corner where they can either say you are a false prophet or they are a disobedient Christian...it is a no-win situation.
Repeating what I said before...if God has spoken, it will come to pass for those who are following Him and are called to walk your path in this life.
I have been in many places in my life where I knew the Lord had led me into an intersection and I had to choose which way He wanted me to go. I lost sleep and health trying to make sure I did not step out of His will (a common misconception)...looking back in my life all I see is a set of train tracks...only one. The funny thing is that He knew the whole time where I would turn and had the plan laid. Proverbs says in a mans heart he plans the way he will go but the Lord directs his steps.
Walk the path the Lord has told you to walk...speak to whom He brings you to speak to...carefully weigh that prophecy is personal and should probably be done in person...not over a comp b/c you never know who is reading. |
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| February 25, 2007 |
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| webyouthpaster,
Your gentle attitude is wonderful, and I like your points too. I thought I responded to Cameron earlier as well, but I can't find my comment (maybe in another blog?).
Cameron,
We all receive messages from the Holy Spirit, and many times what He tells me conflicts with what my fellow believers receive. This reminds me of Romans 14 (the whole chapter), where Paul talks about personal convictions:
v.14 - "I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean."
v.22 - "So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God."
v.23 - "everything that does not come from faith is sin."
Like wyp and many others, I am convinced God called me to thte particular church we are attending, and virtually every Sunday I clearly hear God's voice of conviction and clarification, the Light of Truth itself. That isn't to say your message isn't valid, I believe for you it is. ~God bless, mike |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Well said Mike |
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| February 27, 2007 |
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| Hello wyp and Mike and all
This is just to let you know that I have not skipped town but I am honestly meditating and praying concerning the points you have both made, but I'm not ready yet to address them until I do business with the Lord concerning the matter. I am not suprised at your reaction, when I heard this, I was hugely offended.
I was in leadership in a Pentecostal church, where I was fully involved in preaching, playing bass guitar in the worship band, in the choir and involved in regular street dramas and outreaches prior to the Lord speaking this to me. I had been sent back to the UK to help raise up a church in Liverpool. The Lord had opened many doors, miraculously, for me to do this.
I have to smile a bit, because if somebody like me had walked in and said what I had said here, I don't know that I would have been as understanding as you. I think I would probably have booted him out and labelled him, a heretic, or at least, a troublemaker.
Something though, that I have discovered about God, over the years, well two things really.
1) He is absolutely 100% faithful (even when we are not) What He says He will do, He will do.
2) He is totally unpredictable
I'll leave you with that for now but will return once I can address your points etc, in the light of Christ and in love. I ask you to be patient.
Blessings
Cameron.
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| February 27, 2007 |
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| Oh, one other thing. If you would, please pray for me, that the Lord would guide me and reveal to me, His mind as I open my heart.
I thank you
Cameron.
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| February 27, 2007 |
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| Sounds good Cameron |
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| March 01, 2007 |
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| WYP
You said:
By the way, I am on my way to church. And to maybe give a litte hope, we are a body consisting of people who are sick of religious tradition for the sake of meing traditional. We evaluate weekly what we are doing, why we are doing it, and if it is working. We have an open floor for comments, crits, and suggestions. We meet regularly during the week (every night almost) and are in contant communication. We only have one formal service a week where questions are viewed as involvement, everything else is over dinner or at someones jobsite...so it's possible. Very difficult, but possible.
I applaud that, I think that any moves by a church to include the congregation can only be good.
Now, as for my comments and the points you and Mike have made. I think that my approach on this was heavy handed and badly timed. I certainly didn't mean to confuse or harm any little ones and I sincerely apologize if this has been the case, I hope not.
Although I can't step away from what I heard all those years ago, I take what you said wyp as wisdom in that it should be more on a one to one basis.
You had asked if I have been wounded by the church in the past. Yes, many times over, but my most recent wound came from a house church. The truth is that far too many have been wounded in churches where one man or one group of men have gained far too much power.
However, I can say that this was not spoken from that place, but more as just a response to Charlie's thread, not blaming Charlie though :)
The cool thing in this, is that through looking at all the pertinent points you have made, the Lord gave me a love for you. I don't know how it happened, but God's ways are many times, a mystery.
I don't want my comments to plug up any further dialogue on this thread though, because I do believe that there will be wisdom to be gained from all on this subject.
Anyways, sorry for the hand grenade and looing forward to seeing you on the blogs. My thanks to you all and my apologies.
Cameron. |
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| March 01, 2007 |
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| Cameron, a well stated response. Again, follow the path...and you are so right...the church is an amazing entity...its like we are a human video of Jesus parable about the good samaritan...I am sorry...we also have been deeply wounded by this thing but you just keep going in the direction He calls us.
Conflict always bring people closer if it is well handled |
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| March 02, 2007 |
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| I really don't want to see dialogue come to a grinding halt on this. It's not an us vs them sort of thing, as in house church vs traditional church. I think it would be better to look at some of the things that we, as Christians all agree on.
I think that all would agree that a building or a house, is not the church. We hear so often, "I'm going to church, or down at the church" but I think we would all agree that the church (ekklesia) is the Bride of Christ and that the Groom desires to be intimate with His Bride and visa versa. (See Song of Songs)
I'd like to testify of something that I experienced in the very first church I attended, which was a non denominational pentecostal church in the state of Oregon. When I first went there, I didn't have a clue what I had gotten myself into, especially coming from the UK.
It was very lively, with people speaking in tongues and waving their hands and shouting etc, and I thought "blimey" what is all this?
However, the people were very friendly and over time I got used to things, but one thing impressed me the most and I was just a mere babe in Christ at the time.
About once per month, on a Sunday evening, after the worship service, the Pastor would go and sit down and leave an open microphone for people to come up and share something with us.
Somebody may have written a song from his heart, to the Lord and would sing it, which was very uplifting, somebody else would come up and in tears, confess some sin or other and the congregation would minister forgiveness to him/her, another would share something from the scriptures that touched their heart, and so on.
This was my favorite time in that church because I could see the hearts of the others and I also didn't feel like I was the only sinner there. They became very human to me and this very often convicted me and witnessed to me of Christ and people's love for Him and to see Him as a God of great mercy and love.
In so many churches in our day and age, this sort of intimacy is lacking at the expense of ritual.
Do you see what I mean?
Cameron. |
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| March 02, 2007 |
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| Definitely. I have stated repeatedly that, although full time ministry is needed (missionaries...even home based pastoralships) many ministers b/c powerful b/c the congregations have turned over all their responsibilities to them...it is a constant fight to get peope to understand that the leader (God ordained) is not the king.
Someone in all groups must have the last say...that is how it is but everything I read Biblically says things were done democratically...nothing was ordered individually. It is definitely easier to see the hand of God when a large group of God fearing individuals all feel the same way about something rather than a single person telling the group "God told me so you will..."
But for all this to function, so many current philosophies must be broken. Our church struggles with this as well. Trying to remove all space, power, and height b/w the "pulpit and the pew." People are so used to the tradition that "the collared does it all" that they have long forgotten (or never known) that the whole purpose for congregational worship was for all to come together in unity praising God for what He is doing in their lives since they last met (one will have a hymn...)
Most people think you go to church to learn about God...or to grow closer to Him. I cannot find that to be true...most people can't remember what the Pastor spoke about 3 hours after the service. Hence your frustration and mine. People don't learn about God in public settings (in depth) they grow closer to God at home by spending time in prayer and in the word. They grow closer to God being involved in a Bible study where all are involved...if a Bible study has a leader who is responsible for anything more than keeping the discussion on track...what is the difference between church service? I could go on for hours.
We grow closer to God by living for Him and loving eachother. I almost hesitate to allow new believers to come to church until they have been discipled for some time...I cannot force that but being a part of a congregation has responsibilities for everyone. Until congregations get back to that, the "church" will continue to lose ground. People are tired of doing things because they have always been done.
The pastors who have built the megachurches are falling left and right b/c the people have given them a position man does not deserve. The pastoralship has lost its trust and people are leaving. Again, this horse is sick, not dead. God will not say to us, ok I understand. He will say, why didn't you do something. I believe that is where people like you (and I) come in.
Our fellowship started for that reason. Our congregational vision is simply this: Seeing people come into an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ following Him and growing in their giftings to maximize their ability to serve Him...if we do that, we will go in the direction the Lord has for us.
Typically, if you are going to be intimate...you won't get large. There will be alot of turnover b/c ad people are prepared, they will be sent...
Follow the path the Lord had placed you on and lets get this horse healthy again. |
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| March 02, 2007 |
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| Hi everyone, I'm glad I ran across this blog, it's an opportunity for me to share what's going on in our little effort.
While my position is that of Pastor, it is a function, not a title, and I reserve the use of the title for legal affairs.
Behind the scenes, my pastoral duties are clear: pray, fast, work, teach, support, encourage, edify, equip.
In front of the church my pastoral duties take a drastic turn from traditional church. My role is more in facilitator than lecturer, because our services are interactive.
People comprise the church, and people will go where there is spiritual growth and power. This is not being found in most traditional churches. And the suprise should not be surprising: the power is in the people! So we encourage active participation in the service, including small children and non-christians.
We are the church. And we can be church in Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Barnes-N-Noble, or anywhere else. As long as we are meeting to strive toward holy living as a group it is being the Church. Because wherever there is 2 there are 3. |
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| March 02, 2007 |
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| Go ahead Jonathan |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| Hi WYP
Again, you make some pertinent points and your particular church may afford certain freedoms that many many others do not. This I applaud but I am looking out over the entirety of Christendom, where in the past I have seen and experienced it for myself.
The facts are, that a Pastor, although scriptural, usually reigns supreme over his/her congregation. In orthodox churches especially, there is no place to really speak to another until after the service (which is predictable as can be) over coffee where everybody stands around in suits and the women are dressed to the nines. Hardly conducive to intimacy!
The thing is, that many/most believers are not in a place of thinking or even knowing that they have been given a gift and sink back in the chair or pew and ride along on the pastor's coat tails. I submit to you, that this is not a church, the lost aren't interested in going there and many time, the congregants are bored to tears as they go through this robotic like Sunday morning 11am ritual.
So then, what constitutes a church? In its rawest and most basic form, it is "wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them".
Am I called to "fix" things, no. However, being fair, I have seen shades and elements of the church WITHIN some of those churches, in spite of the form of proceedings, not because of, because Christ remains true to Himself, in His children.
Some churches have seen this and have established cell groups, but they very often tend to be a miniture copy of the larger one.
In your particular church, WYP, it looks like you have taken some healthy steps towards fellowship and intimacy in the Spirit, but I wonder, would you consider going a step further?
Cameron.
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| Jonathan
Welcome to the blog and in particular, to this discussion. I enjoyed very much what you had to say. A Pastor being a facilitator, that's great! You are absolutely right, we ARE the church, whether in a car, a living room or out by a lake.
Welcome and the Lord bless you as you and those you meet with, seek Him out.
Cameron. |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| Cameron, if you're over that way we used to greatly enjoy worshipping with the folks at Kirriemuir Christian Fellowship. I was part of their work at HMP Noranside where we met in a way that I think you'd have approved of.
Also, we'd appreciate all your prayers as starting this Sunday evening the Church is being extended to a room off the kitchen at our local horse racing track. |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| That's very interesting, Dan. We live in Aberfeldy which is roughly about an hour's drive from here. I know Kirriemuir quite well and may just go pay them a visit. Btw, if you are ever over in our neck of the woods again, let me know and you would be most welcome to come and sit with us. It would be nice to meet you and share our portions together :)
Wow, Christians on horseback, now there's one I hadn't thought of! You have our prayers.
Thanks Dan. |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| What I say, I must say carefully...but I am always yearning to draw closer and nearer to what God has designed His Church to be...unified in Word and action...corporate in Worship. Will that day ever come? Will Christians ever again take full responsibility for the directions of their local body...I don't know.
I can't change them...only me and keep myself plyable. That is difficult...but I understand you more as I talk to you...I spent alot of time in Bosnia and Germany...as well as Haiti, Mexico and other places. Church has a totally different meaning here...and I will never bow to it.
We have compartmentalized everything...I know I am heading back to the mission field and I desperately cannot wait...what you are describing is the Church that the Apostles built.
Jonathan, PastorDan...you will probably agree that every body must have a head...but there is a line between leadership and dictatorship, submission and laziness. I keep saying this horse is sick, not dead. We (the collective body) are responsible for where we are...I would like to have been in the services that took place during the Pilgrim years, the reformation years, and especially the early years.
In missionary churches, people will bring their food with them...b/c the service may go all day. Women will nurse their children during the service...and the glory of God is so rich you can cut it.
Cameron, would I love to go back there...it is a dream but I know the hand of God and where He leads I follow, what He feeds me, I eat...and the sheep He sends me, I will tend...and the field He puts me in, I will stay.
In a man's heart he plans the way he will go but the Lord directs his steps.
I know that I still have a lot to learn... |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| I spent six years posted with the Forces in the UK. We stayed in Montrose and Inverbervie for three years back in the mid-90's. In fact, I may still hold the course record for the most balls lost in a single round on the Montrose links. We miss the butteries, oatcakes, and Irn Bru but most of all we miss our brothers and sisters. Moved house to a place outside Lincoln after that for the next three years. Our first daughter was born in the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary and is proud of her Scottish birth. The next was born in Lincoln. So far there've been only the faintest rumblings of border conflict. The last time I was in Scotland was to see Paul Lawrie win the Open at Carnoustie so we'd love to get back there. |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| WYP, the real test is whether that leader is serving or looking to be served.
And you mention compartmentalization--I think that's where the biggest breakdown has occurred. If we're only the Body between 10:30 and noon on Sunday morning then we'll always fall short but if we're the Body whenever two or more gather for any activity then there's no limit.
For us who are called as pastors...we have to decide whether we want to be important or are we committed to do important things. John Wesley said, "You have nothing to do but to save souls. Therefore spend and be spent in this work. ... Observe: It is not your business to preach so many times, and to take care merely of this or that Society, but to save as many souls as you can; to bring as many sinners as you possibly can to repentance; and, with all your power, to build them up in that holiness, without which they cannot see the Lord."
This isn't a glamorous task and very little of it can be done from a stage. This also speaks to one of Cameron's earlier points--All human relationships have their rituals, it's just that empty and meaningless are up to the participants. The worship "ritual" isn't so empty if the guy leading it has been living it out alongside you all week. |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| You have mirrored what I have been saying for years
1) pulpit ministry is least of concern for a pastor...that is not a pastor's major responsibility...I hear so many people judge a pastor by his ability to keep them excited on Sunday...and that is ridiculous...
2) to serve and not be served...excellent. I had a close friend who said the other day that we have got this priorities thing all screwed up. If we gave our life in ministry like so many do in mission fields and through history, our wives would leave us...it is the business we have allowed that keeps us from being able to focus...as a whole.
3) I keep asking people why they go to church and how convenient of a thing it is? How a pastor can feel that in one service he can preach a message that feeds all levels of growing Christians w/in the body, while convicting the lost of their need for Christ bewilders me...it has been since I left Bosia until where I am now that I have been with a people who understands that this whole "fast food church" thing doesn't work.
4) The worship ritual...awesome statement...I hope the rest of the church picks up on the fact that music does not equal worship...even good slow music...I am an iron worker by trade and remember an agnostic friend who after confessing Christ telling me he would never listen to a guy preach to him who he doesn't see work and that the only reason he listened to me is b/c I was out there with him
I myself will never buy a product from a man who must read his sale. If we say we have the gift of eternal life, why are we so afraid of losing ours? |
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| ( 2 Cor 6:4 ) AS SERVANTS OF GOD WE COMMEND OURSELVES IN EVERY WAY: IN GREAT ENDURANCE, IN TROUBLES, HARDSHIPS AND DISTRESSES.
( 2 Cor 4:17 )FOR OUR LIGHT AND MOMENTARY TROUBLES ARE ACHIEVING FOR US AN ETERNAL GLORY THAT FAR OUTWEIGHS THEM ALL.
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| March 03, 2007 |
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| Dan
I know those places well, in fact we were up camping at Johnshaven last summer, between Montrose and Inverbervie. Its a nice part of the East coast. I know Lincolnshire too, I did my basic training in the RAF at Swinderby in 1970 which sits between Lincoln and Newark.
When you were here, we were living in Blairgowrie, so you weren't far from us at all. You miss the butteries and oatcakes, ha! I noticed you didn't mention the other fine local produce, namely, Whisky!
Small world eh
Cameron. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| WYP
I understand what you mean about churches in other countries, esp third world countries where community still exists and a high tech society seems like another planet. A friend of mine has been to Albania, to a new church there which has left an indelible impression in his heart. He was particularly impressed with the sisters, who upon their arrival, were so glad to see them that they asked him and the other brothers with him to come into the center of the floor and they sang to them and showered them with flowers.
Roddy said that this was so real and refreshing that it just cut him to the heart and he wept with joy! They didn't try in any way to make them into a western style church, but just fellowshipped and taught and testified, as they did the same. He speaks of going back again., I think I may join him on the next trip.
You said:
What I say, I must say carefully...but I am always yearning to draw closer and nearer to what God has designed His Church to be...unified in Word and action...corporate in Worship. Will that day ever come? Will Christians ever again take full responsibility for the directions of their local body...I don't know
I don't either, but I have seen it happen. Whether it will happen across the board, I don't know but I do know that whether the Pastor is present or not, the church should still go on functioning. I also hate to see the heavy load that Pastors have to bear, sometimes to the detriment of their own walk. I can't believe that God intended for this to happen to this degree, a servant, yes, but a pack horse, no.
I'm getting to know you a bit better now too and I can see your heart and when you say that you desire to draw nearer and closer to God's heart for His church, I believe you. That is my desire too, so we are not so far apart here.
That book I mentioned "The Open Church by James Rutz, is worth a read. He doesn't actually advocate house churches, but addresses the traditional church, but not in a harsh way, more helpful and informative, even comical in places.
I think it's out of print now but one could probably acquire it through Amazon.com.
I don't want it to seem that I am going around with an agenda, either.
Really, my ultimate aim is to know fellowship in the spirit with all who believe, either in or out of churches. My brethren are to be found in both places, actually, sometimes in the strangest of places!
I went up to the local Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) here in town a few times. I sat through the service, tried the evening service too, then asked about the Bible studies and the house group, only to find that absolutely everything is formatted. My heart sank because I wanted to get to know the people there (without any agenda) I haven't been for a while, but I haven't totally written it off as a lost cause either.
So, I am just basically remaining still right now and seeking the Lord's heart.
Anyways, to answer Charlie's main question on the thread, Can a Christian survive outside the traditional churches? My answer is unequivocally, yes. It is not easy though and it leads to the cross, but then anything of any worth in Christ, must come in the resurrection.
I've enjoyed talking to you WYP and if you are ever across the pond, look me up, you'd be most welcome :)
Cameron. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| I have a saying that fully details the character of my Pastorship.
A leader is merely a professional follower.
I do not walk in front, I walk in back. I do not sit at the head of the table, I wait to be invited. I do not presume to be proffered anything, so I work diligently to earn. I am the first to wash toilets, answer phones, and take out trash. Or wash feet.
Leadership is learned under the tutelage of a harsh dictator, where services are demanded with no reward, because we learn to serve with gladness as unto God, not unto man. The finer aspects of leadership become clear when your hand is in the dirty toilet.
We are not men. We are slaves. And we have been purchased for a price. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| Dan
I take your point about all human relationships being ritualistic, that is true. We are creatures of habit. However, I think some times we need to take a look at that ritual and evaluate, is it working? Are people growing? Are they maturing and functioning in their giftings? Is the Holy Spirit allowed to move as He pleases within our rituals?
If the answer is no to any of those, perhaps we need to take a long hard look at that ritual.
What say you?
Cameron. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| Good way of expressing things. I don't remember which textbook I ran across this in but I once heard ritual explained this way:
-- The first generation has their way of expressing their common experiences and beliefs. For practical reasons, they use a common language, etc. to do this.
-- The second generation inherits the ritual, is intellectually aware of the beliefs and experiences behind it, and maintains the language. It's questionable whether they share the beliefs and especially the experiences that are being expressed.
-- The third generation continues the ritual although they don't know why and they retain the language even though they don't understand it.
The author argued that for these reasons we should always be examining what we say and do for the sake of continuing to communicate the truth of the Gospel. Sometimes that takes the form of teaching--"Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”--and sometimes it means we scrap (culturally-formed) things that are no longer meaningful such as particular musical genres or archaic language that no longer communicates the Biblical truth behind it. (I see more pointless arguments based in a misunderstanding of Elizabethan english...but that's another story.) The bottom line is that we need to be more concerned with meeting God than we are of maintaining our forms that once led us to Him. When the Pillars of Fire and Smoke move on so should we. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| Yes Dan
I agreeth! The bottom line IS meeting with God. I was a Christian for a long time before God really bagan to teach me about reverence and fear. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. At that point, I was almost afraid to say anything because it hit me like a ton of bricks, that these are the things of a real living God who is hugely powerful, Holy and knows all things. It was almost like the Job scenario "Where were you when I formed the heavens, etc" This led me into repentance, which I am careful to still walk in. Then, after a while, He began to teach me about liberty and liberty is where Christ is.
We, as Christians, not just pastors and leaders need to learn this. It is pleasing to God and He is pleased to sit with those who have the heart of a lamb and as Charlie would say, those who are poor in spirit, otherwise we are just blind leaders of the blind.
You are right though, it is not about creating models, I've been down that road and God made sure it failed, thankfully! He has and is, still teaching me to be still, to seek His mind and His heart, in humility and in complete dependency. He has never failed me though.
I think there are a lot of lessons and refreshment to be had from those churches in poorer countries, at least before westerners get in there and start building platforms and pulpits.
Yes, let us seek Him out together, desiring His mind for us all.
Blessings to you Dan
Cameron. |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| Dan, I don't know what "text book" you have, but what you described there reminds me of a book I read recently, Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell. He uses the velvet Elvis to convey the same thing you related, that after several generations, that velvet Elvis painting gathering dust in the basement has totally lost it's meaning and the emotional (perhaps even spiritual) connection it had when purchased.
I'm sure y'all have heard of the "emergent church." I don't know how that is viewed amongst everyone, but it is becoming a "popular movement" for the newer generations today. Personally, I don't get excited about "movements" unless it's the moving of the Spirit of God.
One of our own, Dave, posted this blog: http://www.mychurch.org/blog/12839/The-Emerging-Church
Here's a quote from Dave Apel:
"I do realize that what I call the Emerging Church is different than what most call the Emerging Church. Rather than it being the youth or a generation or a style of church, I believe it is best described as 'A Fullness of Time'. God does not operate in 'Time'. God lives in Eternity. 'Time' is a commodity that will some day run out. God moves when everything is set in place for something to happen."
I like that..now that's the movement I'm talking about!
Thanks Cameron for your input. As always your words and spirit tug at my heart.
My purpose for putting this blog on has been fulfilled to overflowing. I'd love to hear from others with experiences "outside the camp."
Thanks to all that have shared. Let the fellership flow...
Charlie
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| Many will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not..."
It is scary to think that most people who find themselves within a church on Sunday have no clue about what is going on or why...they just do it because. It is quite funny b/c in language games...semantics are everything. How you say things is much important that why we say them. I could say "You wore that shirt" and just by moving a couple expressive syllables around, the whole meaning changes. I do have a point here...
If we meet up in a store and all I have to say to you is "so how's the job?" that is code for "I do not know you, have really nothing to ask you or talk about with you...and/or quite honestly do not care to get deeper in conversation with you than this..." UNLESS I specifically know there is an issue of concern there, and then those same words have meaning...the same is with God. Redundancy, regardless of the hype, has no value in relationship...and regardless of the style of church (traditional/charismatic/emergent/home-based/missionary/etc) is the trap so many fall into...lets be honest, it feels good to do your part...
That is where Martha got into trouble concerning her jealosy of Mary with Jesus...Martha got caught up in working while Mary was just thrilled with being around. Pharisees (who are often regarded negatively) got into trouble b/c they forgot that just b/c one works like a dog to keep the temple looking awesome from the outside and has the ability to recall scripture on demand doesn't mean that they are now deserving of some status...in today's society they would still be well received...it feels and looks good to be always busy serving the Lord...
The problem with that is that the gift has already been given. It is kind of weird for one to work to receive a check after it is in their position. I do not work for God...I serve Him...I know Him...I seek Him...I need Him. As a "worship leader" I do not practice my skill so that I can create "moments of worship"...I practice my skill to give the gift I have been given back...to say "thanks"...and b/c I like it.
Cameron I wonder if when the Lord brings the vision He's given you to fullness, even in that will you have to fight against people who are still going through the motions...and the answer is yes. Until we grasp that freedom is ours not so we can do stuff, but so that we can serve Him freely knowing in our hearts that He is pleased with our service. (1 Pet 2:15) |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| The point that I am making is that when we keep people doing stuff b/c its the thing to do...we are not leading them to the Lord and I wonder how many people we (the collective church) will allow to slip into eternity never once actually looking at the cross and choosing to carry it. By allowing blind tradition, many of us may end up guilty (perhaps) of "loving" the lost to hell. I say that cautiously...not to be condemning...I did say "we" and "us"...but I do my best to keep tradition in its place (traditions are not bad in themselves) but letting seeking Jesus go forward.
Dan you said follow the fire and cloud where they lead...I agree. If tradition keeps us from following the freedom to grow in Christ...what in the world are we doing? |
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| March 04, 2007 |
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| WYP
I don't think at any point, I have advocated keeping people doing stuff. I am just speaking of openness and relationship. People have been gifted to edify the body. In most churches, they are retricted or in some churches, banned from doing that. I am just speaking of allowing the Holy Spirit to spontaneously move as He wills. As for leading people to Christ, on many occasions I have sat at the feet of young children as they have shared their hearts, and boy, I was led to Christ. the ground was holy.
I am not advocating either, that we should take a D2 Cat to all church buildings. Many, maybe most are quite content with tradition and order of service etc and will probably stay in that situation until they die.
At the end of the day, I am not advocating someting new, or something old, I am advocating that we all need Christ, now, today!
If one man is running everything, is he not saying, I am the head, I have no need of the foot, or the toe, or the ear, etc. Has he not (albeit unwittingly) become the whole body?
The only problem is, if he has, then the head has been decapitated from the rest of the body. That is why I say, that in a traditional church, the more the Pastor can do to involve participation from those sitting in pews or rows, the better.
In fact, God desires it and expects it of us. Sometimes too, if someone is new or is hurting, a church pew can be the lonliest place in the world. Next thing is, you'll most probably find that person down at the local pub.
Cameron. |
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| March 05, 2007 |
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| WYP
You said: Cameron I wonder if when the Lord brings the vision He's given you to fullness, even in that will you have to fight against people who are still going through the motions...and the answer is yes. Until we grasp that freedom is ours not so we can do stuff, but so that we can serve Him freely knowing in our hearts that He is pleased with our service. (1 Pet 2:15)
Well, I'm not saying that a house church is a cure all for some who may not know the Lord or are over functioning or underfunctioning, etc. It isn't. It can be fraught with all sorts of problems to work through but the service you speak of wyp. Is not functioning in a gift and giving it freely and with joy, to the Liord and to the body of Christ, not service to the Lord? I mean, isn't that what you are doing with your music? Then why should others not be able to do the same as you?
Cameron. |
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| March 05, 2007 |
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| Hi Cameron,
I understand your concerns, but I wonder if some of your concern is more an expression of your personality than your theology. Let me explain what I mean.
=========================
You said:
If one man is running everything, is he not saying, I am the head, I have no need of the foot, or the toe, or the ear, etc. Has he not (albeit unwittingly) become the whole body? The only problem is, if he has, then the head has been decapitated from the rest of the body. That is why I say, that in a traditional church, the more the Pastor can do to involve participation from those sitting in pews or rows, the better.
You may be addressing the lack of leadership talent in a Pastor who may not have developed the motivational skills necessary to activate the congregation, but please do not confuse this with Dictatorship. I would wager that 99% of the Pastors you are using as examples would probably all agree that they are trying to fill their calling to honor God with their lives and cause 'cooperative effort' in the people, not dominate them.
So the real issue is your personal preference for interactive small-group style service. This is a good thing and I whole-heartily encourage it. In fact, this is the style we use in our home church. But not at the expense of many great traditional Pastors who do an outstanding service to the people in their congregation.
Just because we are different in our personality, doesn't mean it has to be either or when it comes to style of worship. The traditional style works great for many people. Just not me. I'm different and I need something lively and interactive and more challenging. |
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| March 05, 2007 |
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| Hi Jonathan
I understand completely what you say regarding differentiating between a loving and accomodating pastor and a dictatorship.
Nor am I trying to change the world and get everybody to agree with me, in fact, the mere thought of that scares me half to death!
The fact though, is that there ARE far too many dictators out there and the traditional concept which is prmarily Roman, is conducive to tempting mere men to take on power. It has happened over and over.
Whilst a home church may suit my personality, I am also looking over the entire landscape of Christendom and I am trying to see what it is, that God desires.
Really, what I hope to do, is not to introduce something new or try to change anybody, but more to plant seeds for thought because I have been down both roads, that of the traditional one and the house church route. Also to let folks know that if they are frustrated with the traditional church, that there is an alternative out there.
I've just been reading a book Charlie recommended called "Velvit Elvis" and I really like this guy, his thoughts, most of them anyway, resonate with mine, but he is a pastor of a large church in Michigan.
Now, there's a church I wouldn't mind visiting!
Thanks for your input Jonathan, your thoughts are noted :)
Cameron. |
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| March 05, 2007 |
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| Cam, I wasn't disagreeing with you in any form...just reflecting on the fact that until God's children grasp hold of true freedom in Christ and are willing to stand in their responsibilities in the body...we will be scratching our heads...
I recognize all that you said and agree that we must do as we are called. I was merely reflecting outward on an inward thought. I have been involved in some interesting blogs here of late (that I have now backed out of) and am just dissappointed I guess...not surprised...in the gospel (little g on purpose) of bondage that so many preach and so many follow (more surprising)
Well said about the loneliness in the pew...even more lonely can be the pulpit... |
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| March 06, 2007 |
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| Hi WYP
Sorry mate
I did misunderstand you and I agree with your comments above. As for me, I've been riding this Stallion quite a bit now and I'm gettin bow legged here. So, I'll leave it open for others to comment if they wish to.
I must say though, that I've gotten to know you a bit and some other dear brothers too, through this interaction and God has been placing love in my heart for you all. Can't be a bad thing, eh?
I'll look forward to seeing you on other threads though.
Just one thing though, you gotta work on that Scots accent a bit. Seems Pastor Dan could probably give some lessons!
See ya soon, WYP
Love ya
Cheers for now
Cam. |
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