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What do you consider the "structures of the church" to be?
Just a couple of observations. Spirituality is not the same as Christianity, and religion is not the same as legalism. Not that you've conveyed this in any way. But it seems to me that if you put the two terms to the focus groups, spirituality would fare much better than religion.
Simply, a spiritual person is one who is spiritually aware (as opposed to living sensually -- by the 5 senses), whereas a religious person exalts something above themselves. I knew a guy once who watched The Simpsons religiously, forsaking all else the nights that it was on tv.
Both terms denote a very good thing when Christ is the object. One who pursues a spiritual relationship w/Jesus religiously is on the right track! ~mike |
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You have presented some good questions. Here's my thought Steve: spiritual has to do with spirit. God is spirit. If we want to relate to God, commune with Him, serve Him, it must be done in a spiritual way, via God's Spirit in us.
Religion at its very best is "visit the windows and orphans and keep oneself unstained from the world." That is good and needful. However, that can be done by atheists, outside of God.
Government has many programs to care for widows and orphans. That same government may someday remove "In God We Trust" from our currency (but never from our hearts).
Charlie |
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James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
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Ooops, I just realized I left out these last two paragraphs..sorry.
Organized religion operates much the same as government or a corporation. Religion can proclaim God's name, even teach ABOUT Jesus, cast out evil spirits, etc. but lacks the living relationship with a living God.
The body of Christ is spiritual, our oneness is in the Spirit and Christ's body is alive, comprised of living stones housing within us a living God.
Charlie |
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Charlie Charlie Charlie... I used to belong to a Presbyterian church (can't get much more "organized" than that!) that excelled in every good work, and whose vision statement was "Moving People Towards Christ." Really an excellent church in almost every way. You seem to accuse them of lacking a living relationship in God, lumping them in with government and corporations.
And although the young church I belong to now is fairly organized, and will surely become more so as they mature, I'd hate to think that they too fall into this category you've decribed!
I am pretty sure you didn't intend to do this, maybe just hasty typing, like I often do? Wanna clarify? :) (your friend in Christ... ~mike) |
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Mike - I understand the "structures of the church" to be the church board and its related committees. This also extends to higher governing bodies that exist in most mainline churches. Of course, I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with structure. In fact I believe it is necessary to have some structure in order to keep the church focused on its vision and mission. The problem occurs when boards and committees loose their focus and energy is wasted to maintain a structure that is no longer bearing fruit.
I have been reading a lot about team based ministry in an attempt to find a structure that is centered around peoples' spiritual desire to serve God and less focused on "forming a committee" to get the job done.
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Well Mike, you may be right..I let my fingers get ahead of my brain. I like the way Steve 'splained it better :). I think what you liked at the churches you've been involved with is the people and relationships, not so much the organization.
If we're not careful, the organization and it's agenda to perpetuate itself can smother the life function of body ministry and prevent the equipping of the saints toward mutuality and encouragement. I know we all know this, but it's the saints that are the church, not the organization, corporation, or name.
Charlie |
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"I think what you liked at the churches you've been involved with is the people and relationships"
>>> Right on, Charlie!
"not so much the organization"
>>> Correct again, although w/o the organization, the people would all have been scattered off in their own little circles. At some point as a local body increases in size, we have to admit that some organizational structure is needed.
"If we're not careful, the organization and it's agenda to perpetuate itself can smother the life function of body ministry "
>>> Yes, although even disorganized little groups can have the same effect. I've seen that too!!
"it's the saints that are the church"
>>> I agree w/you (and Nelta and Alice). But Scripture also supports (encourages?) organization of believers into formal structures to accomplish ministry purposes, and for worship, teaching, equipping, and many other purposes.
Charlie, thank you for your clarification, brother. This has been an enjoyable dialogue! ~mike |
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Steve,
Check out the Practically Speaking podcasts if you haven't (search on itunes), particularly the first one - clarify the win. It's about defining at all levels of the organization what success looks like, keeping people focused on the objective, and creating an environment in which people throughout the organization actively prune the dead, ineffective branches in pursuit of the fruit.
Mike |
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Mike,
Thanks for the heads up on the Practically Speaking podcast. I found it on itunes and listened to a little bit before being bombarded by the end of the week requests. What I heard was very helpful (as were all the comments.) and I will listen to the rest of it over the weekend.
This was my very first public blog and I thank you all for making it such a positive experience. |
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Kathy |
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April 23, 2007 at 5:31pm |
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Hi Steve, I wasn't on MyChurch in February, so I'm just finding your blog. Neither Spirituality nor Religion is necessarily Christian. A person who claims to be spiritual means he.she is interested in the spiritual realm, as someone else said, outside what can be expereinced through the senses. Those who are involved in New Age, Wicca, and Paganism rightly consider themselves spiritual. Religion is defined as man's attempt to reach God. Religions include Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, cults, etc. So to call ourselves spiritual or religious does not denote that we are followers of Christ. As someone already said, it is good to be both, if both are centered around Christ Jesus, but the best term to identify ourselves with is Christian. Good conversation starter! God's blessings! |
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Kathy,
Since I posted this blog I read an excellent article (the source of which I have already forgotten) which noted that the division of spirituality and religion is uniquely American. I have not traveled enough to either agree or disagree with that statement but it is an interesting question to explore. |
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As Paul mentions in 1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseach you, brethen, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions amoung you; but that ye be perfectliy joined togethr in the same mind and in the same judgement. This word "division" is, in the prim, sood-say-teh'-o in the Greek. Which is basically, dispute. Christianity is not a religion. It is a "reality". Religion is the traditions of men often spoken of in the Bible. Check it out-please!! God bless, Ronnie |
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II do believe we are strugling with symantics concerning our terms. The biblical concept of "spiritual" refers to God (who IS spirit - not A spirit). I would say the majority of I Cor. deals with this contrast of spiritual vs. carnal or natural. The natural man is the "soulish man" and the spiritual man is a man/woman who is seeking, and longing for God's heart and walking in/by God's Spirit. Both are in Christ, but their choice of nourishment and sustenance is different. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. 3:2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able `to bear it': nay, not even now are ye able; 3:3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men? Like Ronnie mentioned, religion is based upon man's traditions and concepts; it will engender strife and division, because our oneness is not in soul, but spirit. Our spirit is our direct link to God, which is a spiritual connection.6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Religion has a unity of a sort, but it is not (biblically) spiritual. Religion attempts to unify by bonding in men's traditions and manipulations. True unity is in the Spirit and is achieved through sacrificial love which is bonded in peace (oneness). 4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 4:3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. This is the oneness Jesus prayed for in the garden, and the oneness He obtained and has given to us via His Spirit. 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Religion can never achieve this nor can any other "spiritual" movement. It is ours today, paid for by the sacrifice and obedience of our Savior and now encapsulated within God's Spirit joined or united with our spirit, becoming ONE spirit!! PTL! |
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Hi Steve,
The spiritual / Christian distinction is not purely American. I'm Australian, and live in Australia, and people make the same sort of comments here - probably learned from American TV. I think it's a distinctly first world thing though.
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PARoss |
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June 27, 2008 at 2:17pm |
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 You all might be interested in Informal Christianity -- Refining Christ's Church, by Phillip A. Ross, 2007, 126 pages.
Informal Christianity reviews the personal and informal realities involved in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that provide the foundation of Christianity. Where the internal and subjective realities of regeneration are absent from the lives of church members, churches find themselves on a foundation of sand. Such churches turn away from the heart of Christianity -- doctrine and theology -- to focus on peripheral concerns of administration and maintenance. Christians and churches that do not enthusiastically embrace biblical doctrine and theology as the life-blood of faithfulness, tend to spend their time and energy polishing the outside of the cup (Matthew 23:25). Such efforts concern themselves with church growth -- noses and nickels -- ather than Christian maturity (Ephesians 4:13). |
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