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| Worship Leader-Fivefold Minister?? |
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Why is it that most churches have a full time paid worship leader but not a full time paid Evangelist? What is that saying about our churches? Is a worship leader a five fold minister?
4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
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| To add a comment to "Worship Leader-Fivefold Minister??" |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Interested in comments? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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I couldn't agree more. I'm not saying having a worship leader isn't a good idea - Israel had them during the time of the kings. However, when so many churches pour money into worship that in truth is often about our tastes and our ideals and how we want to worship rather than how God wants to be worshipped we have a problem. So we pour our money into this and we don't pour our money into a command given by our Lord."Go and make disciples". |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Pastor Tom-
You bring up some good points that starts to ask where is our money going? Buildings, etc... I am interested in hearing from people there thoughts on have a full time worship leader vs. a full time evangelist? I wonder if the leadership feels without a worship leader, no one would come to church? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Jeff,
My take is... a worship leader (or choir director/organist) is key to leading the assembled in worship as a body. However, evangelism is not the job of a leader but is regarded as something individuals do on their own. Jesus told several people he healed to simply "go and tell what God has done for you."
I'm not at all saying you don't make a good point though. There is a church near us that takes evangelism very so seriously that they have created a training program to instruct their congregation how to do it. I like that idea. Though in reality you shouldn't need to be trained in order to express what Jesus means to you and how he motivates you, if he means a lot to you! |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Mike-
Interesting. Jesus said he would make us fisher of men. I believe yes we should be able to share our love for Jesus(testimony) but to effective fish, I think that is one reason Jesus hung out with his disciples for 3 1/2 years. Training. I wonder if our worship to God could just be spontaneous instead of lead by a leader? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Spontaneous worship is awesome! But it's also something best done alone or in very small groups -- practically speaking. ;-) The job of worship leader usually (hopefully) is done by someone with a deep relationship w/God, a love for worshiping him, and good musical talents (and no major fear of leading people). At least, we all hope that our worship leader is actually leading us in worship rather than merely performing.... |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Mike-
I dont see that model in the new testament. My point is that the money is going to wrong places and not getting the job done. You see the Bible talks much about how ministers are to be supported by the gospel.(1 Corinthians 9:14) I think that if the money is going to a pay a staff worship leader and not letting that money support a full time evangelist we are missing it! So let's say for 50k a year you could have Wally the worship leader doing what ever he would do all week to get ready for his set maybe 2 times a week or it could go to Ed the evangelist who could be winning souls and training others to do the same? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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I don't believe we have to strictly follow an NT model, it seems God gives us the freedom to structure our worship in a way that is meaningful to us (yet gives him the glory). The NT does not give us a specific model to follow, at least not to my knowledge. Thank you once again Lord for freedom!
Like I said though, good points Jeff. Especially about the money! |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Mike-the main point that I am looking at is the money but I am curious when you say we don't have to follow strictly a NT model in regards to worship leaders and money, what do you mean? Don't you think we should see how they handled the money and follow? The Holy Spirit did write the Bible to us! |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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I didn't mean "strictly a NT model in regards to worship leaders and money", I meant that no where in the NT do I find a model for how churches must conduct a worship service.
I definitely see God giving us priorities to follow in scripture! That's why I appreciate the point you're making about the money! |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Mike-thanks for your input. You always add great value to a discussion. Take a look at 1 Corinthians. 14:26-39. I think that gives some insight to their gatherings. My main point of discussion is shoud a worship leader get paid instead of an evangelist and in regards to a five fold minister, how do people see worship leaders? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Paul- a whole other can of worms but your right? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Jeff--Speaking of cans of worms...Here's my bit. First, I don't think most folks understand worship in any kind of biblical sense. But that may be my own bias, as I am wired as a worshipper. Addicted to the Presence of God. Intimacy. I love the stuff in where Moses would go down to the 'other' tent of meeting to get with God and the Presence would leave the Tabernacle and follow him to the place of intimacy. And his assistant, Joshua, was so smoked by it all that he would just hang out there for hours after Moses and the Cloud had departed. Intimacy with God!!! Being in the very PRESENCE!!! And when David brought the ark back to Jerusalem, he put it in a tent with NO VEIL, and filled the tent with prophets and worshippers and the GLORY fell and abided...24/7/365 for thirty years. Columbanus and the Valley of the Angels...non-stop prayer and intercession for 300 years. The Moravians at Hernhut...non-stop prayer and worship for 100 years. (And we get antsy if Wed nite has two minutes of silence or runs past 8:00?) Worship and intercession and seeing and hearing and being in the Presence and ministering unto the Lord...We say we want to see the GLORY of God explode in the streets. We want to evangelize under an open heaven. We want signs and wonders. We want whole cities transformed. We claim (some of us) to believe that there are apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints. But what does our handling of our 'treasure' reveal about the true state of our hearts? What do we really give to and what do we give ourselves to? Maybe the question should be why don't we really worship MORE! AND why don't we sow generously and without stint into the lives of our brothers and sisters who are our LORD's ascension gifts to US. Why do we place so little value on those gifts and on ministering to our God, who has done so much to open the way for us to enter in and KNOW Him intimately? (And finally, sorry this 'comment' is so long, but this is my heart, bro...) |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Don-
I would love to hear you expound on worship and itimacy. It seems like you have great revelation on it. Come on bro bring us in deeper. I feel his Presence even as I am typing this. I will read this again but please do some writing in terms we can understand on this topic and lead us closer! Love ya bro. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Don-
What's your thoughts on the money? Worship leader or evangelist? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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both |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| If you had to choose with finances? My point. We have full time worship leaders and then evangelists, prophets, etc... struggling to support their family. Biblical? My question is should a worship leader get paid or supported before an evangelist? Obviously, I love people who lead us into the Secret Place. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| I think each local body should have the 5 fold in operation. I do not believe a worship leader is part of the 5 fold but the person doing the worship leading may be operating in one of those five fold gifts. For example, the worship leader at CCF is defiantly a pastor. He does not lead the church but he definalty has the pastoral gifting. Daniel Kolenda the leader of the CCF Apostlic team is more of an evangelist or aposlte than pastor but he leads the movement. We pay some of our staff and some we do not. Each situation is carefully examined as if they have a job already, some want to keep secular job, some support themselves through thier traveling ministry, and some comes from the church. I agree that if there are evangelist in the congrregation and they feel called to full time ministry there should be a strong effort to support them financially. I would like to see CCF get to the place where we have a five fold that is all full time in operation.We are close:) Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the american church structure is so completely messed up. I think there is a restoration coming and the role of the five fold especially evangelist has a great role to play in it. On with the revolution! |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Love it Pastor Russ. Amen. Good insight. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Jeff--As a marketplace guy, I think like a business person. I see a congregation with 500 families and an average household income after taxes of $50K, that tells me that the giving should be a MINIMUM of $2.5M. That's the 'tithe' part. Then comes the 'offerings'. Say, $1.25M...??? Total of $3.75M/yr??? Now I realize that encouraging/expecting this level of giving in most churches requires pastors and teachers to venture out of preaching in into meddling, but that's my point. For some reason, congregations can be motivated to support a massive brick and mortar project, but support for the men and women of God is too often just plain stingy (sp?). I don't believe that the question should be evangelist OR worship leader. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, and even some teachers, may be serving in ministry to several congregations simultaneously, or may itinerate and receive support from several or many. Some congregations may be called to provide sole support for folks in these roles. And some, like Paul and many in the NT, just might be called to play out their roles IN the MARKETPLACE, financially beholden to none and giving themselves away in the places where real people in need of the Gospel spend most of their waking hours. Back to the numbers: with that kind of cash available to one congregation, is there really an issue of either/or? |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Good point but let me ask you this. How many churches have a worship leader on staff but no evangelist, prophet, etc... Something has to change. So in theory your math works but getting decision makers to change the way we think is the issue. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Jeff--Again, I would resist the need for an either/or choice. That said, your question is crucial. As I indicated in my first post, the condition of our hearts is revealed by the handling of our treasure. Churches that do not fund evangelistic outreach reveal much about their commitment to spreading the Gospel. Many have fooled themselves into believing that a 'seeker' orientation in their services fulfills the call to reach out to the community. And a slick, professional worship team is critical to the production that keeps folks coming back week after week. For the record, many of these 'worship leaders' are more entertainers than worshippers, and when thrust into contexts where real worship breaks out, either can't or won't handle it. They simply have no grid for processing true ongoing worship with no spirit of entertainment. This may not be their fault, as it's not a concept that is taught or experience that is imparted in the broader church. Still, this kind of 'worship' is more a part of the problem than the solution, and this type of worship leadership will be down the road when the GLORY of God falls in the church. We need leaders who will demonstrate what it means to have a radical hunger for intimacy with God...a hunger to see and move in His FIRE...and to draw people in the Spirit up to the place of His Presence. It is in the context of a community addicted to the Presence that the Spirit transforms our hearts, our hungers and desires, and resets our priorities. Then people will hunger for an authentic word from the Lord and will hunger for holiness and will hunger for the bringing of good news to the lost and broken. Because as their priorities fall away and they cease to be spectators, His heart will become their heart. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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| Lord, do you work in the church because we need a Reformation. thanks Don. |
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| December 03, 2007 |
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Shannon-
I lost your comment. Can you repost? Sorry. |
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