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LorenDP |
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December 05, 2007 at 6:12pm |
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I believe that it's a subject that can cause division in the body of Christ and must be approached with a spirit of humility. The phrase that best applies in this situation is "by their fruits ye shall know them"....and it's how I approach the discussion. We no longer live under the law, but under grace. Christians still have the ability to sin. What our elders and pastors need to do is to preach repentance and forgiveness. We should no longer continue in sin, that grace may abound. Paul tells us that. But we as Christians need to know and understand that Gods forgiveness is available..."If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins"...
I don't know if you can ever lose your salvation. I'm not sure in the big picture that the answer to that question really matters. What matters is that we should love each other, uplift each other, encourage one another. What also matters is that God will forgive. If someone is doubting their enternal destiny....then repent...ask forgiveness...and make a conscious effort to be spirit filled and live a new life. |
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Here comes the can of worms! LOL
I don't believe God does "spiritual abortions"
There are punishments for walking astray, but if you are referring to hell as in 'eternal lake of fire'
that's based on acceptance or rejection of Christ, and then based upon the revelation you've received.
There are twelve Greek words for judgment relating to time and place, and this would be the ultimate. |
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Jen |
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December 05, 2007 at 7:38pm |
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| Good comment, Tropical Dennis. |
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JessIAm |
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December 05, 2007 at 7:46pm |
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I have to believe that the obedient son, walked in obedience, but never really knew the true heart of his father. Was he really walking in obedience, then? I tend to think both of the sons deserted their dad. One of them did so by leaving, the other deserted his dad even though he stayed. |
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| We need to know, for sure! |
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| No, do you want all of the dozens of Scripture references I have floating around here somewhere....if I can find them? I always tell ppl though; why risk it? Live to serve Him, love Him and walk in obedience, and you don't need to worry about it. I was raised to believe I could do whatever I wanted, and still get to heaven, but even as a small child, I remember it not sitting well with me. But you know a lot of Calvinists don't necessarly believe "do what you want." Many of them just believe if someone is living a sinful life, they were never saved to begin with. I don't get into anyone's face about it UNLESS they are living wickedly, thinking they are headed to Heaven. That would not be real love if I kept my mouth shut. |
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| P.S. I love ALL OF YOU. I really don't care if you believe once saved always saved or not. So long as you love Jesus....why should I care about much else? That is the tie that binds. I am tired of arguements. I just told what I believe. I do honestly believe it, though, from what I myself have gotten out of the Scriptures, not because someone told me. |
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The reason that this topic is so important is because souls are on the line. Paul, Peter, and John all addressed this issue. Either you can or can't loose your salvation. Someone is write and someone is wrong. For all you weak of stomach, it must be settled and all the above writers strongly refuted false doctrine. That is what this is about. False Doctrine that always hurts people.
8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Clearly you can believe for a while(believers are really saved) and then fall away! |
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| Oh there are LOTS more Scriptures.....like even the Apostle Paul spoke saying "Lest I myself be disqualified" when he was likening the Christian walk to a race....don't you have to be running a race in the first place to be disqualified? And how about in Revelations? Those who endure to the end shall be saved. And many more in that book, as He addresses the churches, and pretty much every book in the NT except I think it's Philemon and one other...can't remember which, has Scriptures about walking out your faith, and enduring to the end and all that stuff..........look what you started in me?????? lol But like I say, if I am going to believe something, I need lotsa Scriptural proof, not a couple of loose Scriptures here and there. And the ten virgins? Five foolish, five wise? No one in the world would be considered a virgin...no, the bride of Christ would though.....yet five of those virgins didn't keep their oil lamps full....and didn't make it into the wedding feast......want some more??? I stink at telling you where, but give me a Concordance and it's doable. |
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Hey Jeff,
Rather than debate the issue (and believe me I've done that), I've decided to simply remove any doubts and encourage, exhort, plead, and beg folks who profess faith in Jesus to live it. God bless, ~mike |
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Mike-
Unfortunately this one doctrine has watered down much of the apostolic doctrines of holiness, fear of the Lord, etc.. it must be corrected, and I have read your view and completely disagreee. I believe false teachers biblically are people that try to ease the body into sin or believing in another gospel. So I am going to publically correct, rebuke, and exhort in all authority. This baby is going to be exposed and brought down setting many free to live holy and stand for sound biblical doctrine. Paul called out false teachers to protect the flock and so will I.
You clearly can believe for a while and then fall away. You must endure to the end to be saved! |
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The doctrine "once saved, ALWAYS saved is false and those who follow such will remain in bondage and loose all opportunity of spending eternity with Christ. Here are my reasons for stating this:
In order for one to TRULY accept the free gift of salvation and eternal life THROUGH Christ Jesus, one must FIRST repent of their sins for confession alone is not enough.
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" (Acts 3:19)
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth ALL men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31)
One cannot be "born again" and still living the same old sinful life: "Therefore if any many be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (II Cor 5:17)
FIRST an individual must determine exactly what it means to be saved and how salvation is even received for there are so many whom feel that all that is needed is to repeat what is called a "sinner's prayer" and from that they are SEALED for eternal life despite the manner they may live their lives. This is simply untrue.
Now, when one understands the "way to salvation", and they know the truth and yet turn from this truth back to their old ways and begin living their lives accordingly, 2 nd Peter says this: "For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them NOT to have known the way of righteousness, than AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2nd Pet 2:20-22)
And the book of Hebrews says this about the importance of following Christ example, and a warning for those who once knew the truth and rejected it: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly light, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; SEEING AS THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers IS rejected, and IS nigh unto cursing: whose end IS to be burned." (Heb 6:1-8)
I do not believe we can continue in willful sin, living for the flesh and not for God, and yet STILL claim that because we have confessed Christ through what is called a "sinner's prayer", we will still spend eternity with him. This is just not scriptural. The word of God says: "Be ye Holy For I am Holy...." |
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shane |
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December 05, 2007 at 11:39pm |
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I think we make to big of a deal over the word saved. Most people think they know what it means while a very few do. It simply means healed and it is used throughout the NT in many different ways most of which are not referring to eternal salvation though in a very out of context way tend to do since it is the Christian cultural norm.
I believe a person can't lose what he doesn't have. Paul said he had a hope of salvation but it wasn't something he had yet attained. Paul's thinking on the issue contradicts both sides of the the debate.
Shane ><> |
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Amen Lara and Job. Don't let people fool you or your friends with false doctrine especially that which involves the souls of men, women, and children. We must rebuke false doctrines and those that teach it are false teachers. Expose it boldly in hopes that people will repent in order to protect God's people. We need a revival in our land and I this bad teaching must be brought down and the proponents of it exposed as well.
That teaching tells people that they could committ adultery, have homosexual relationships, get drunk, lie, steal and still go to heaven. They will either say the people weren't really saved or you cant know the difference between God's children and the children of devil.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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Proponents may say that they don't teach people to sin, but their teaching says you could murder, committ adultery, have idols, lie, cheat and steal and still be saved because you didn't earn it so you can't keep it. Their teaching opens the door for believers to think they could committ servering sin, and still be saved and go to heaven whether they are teaching that outrightly or not, that's is what they are saying. |
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Ragland |
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December 06, 2007 at 3:00am |
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I agree once saved you are always saved. After you are saved you can not go back to your old ways. That is back sliding. Consider this verse by Paul the apostle 2Co 5:10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Judge ment comes after we repent, and are saved and are born again. If we dont keep the status of being saved through out the life, we need to pay for what we have done. I dont think any one can question that. |
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Good Blog Bro Jeff,
2:6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Two Issues here Deeds and Doctrine of the Nicolaitians, Their doctrine (teaching) was similar to that of balaam "who taught balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication.
A little History: The problem underlying the Nicolaitan controversy, though so little direct mention is made of it in Scripture, was in reality most important, and concerned the whole relation of Christianity to paganism and its usages.The Nicolaitans disobeyed the command issued to the Gentile Churches, By the true Apostolic Council held in Jerusalem in 49-50 AD, that they should refrain from eating of " things sacrificed to idols"(Acts 15:29). Such a restriction, though seemingly hard, in that it prevented the Christian communities from joining public festivals, and so brought upon them suspicion and dislike, was yet necessary to prevent a return to a pagan laxity of morals. To this danger the Nicolaitans were themselves a glaring witness, and therefore John was justified in condemning them. ( International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
These men not only lived immoral but they taught others to do the same and Jesus said he hated the deeds and he hated the doctrine that you can live any kind of way and be saved. I think that is a pretty strong indicator that it is not O.K and in the end you loose if the lord hates how you live and what you teach. In a nut shell the Nicolaitanes taught that you could live immoral and still be saved. Sounds like once save always save to me.
Let's go deeper:
10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Here is an example that Paul gives in the New Testament about Israel who came out of Egypt The (World) on their way to the promise land Canaan (Heaven) many of them died and never got to enter in to Canaan (Heaven). Now why does the Holy Spirit have Paul write this for our admonition( to point out something forgotten) if it happened to them it could happen to us.
Finally
11:7What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 11:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. 11:9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them: 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always. 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation `is come' unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy `them that are' my flesh, and may save some of them. 11:15 For if the casting away of them `is' the reconciling of the world, what `shall' the receiving `of them be', but life from the dead? 11:16And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; 11:18glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2:3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;) 2:9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: After reading all scripture my spirit tells me that I should practice holiness and not take a chance that I can't loose my salvation no matter what.God still commands holiness and if he kicked out angels who were in Heaven because of sin what makes anyone think that he will let you in with sin? No you will be eternally Lost all because you listened to some false teacher who likes to live
immoral and teaches you to do the same. And if the blind lead the blind they all fall in the ditch.
You will be Eternally Secure IN HELL. |
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Folks, it is a fallacy to say that all people who hold to "OSAS" (once saved always saved, or perseverance of the saints as John Calvin called it) promote sin, or even undermine holiness. As in, false. While it is certainly true that some downplay holy living, it is not only illogical to use a small group of knowns to classify the universe of unknowns, it's downright uncharitable.
Jeff, your blog started out with the appearance of asking an unbiased question for the sake of discussion. I think it's unfortunate that you withheld your strong language against the position of OSAS until opinions on it started rolling in. ("This baby is going to be exposed and brought down...") This reeks of baiting. Not saying that's what you intended, but the appearance is strong.
I don't much care what people believe concerning OSAS. But it would be nice to see beliefs on both sides at least respected, given the abundance of support for both positions. To deny this is to reveal how little one really knows about the issue! |
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Mike-
As I said, if you teach people that they can't fall away, you have not only clearly taught the opposite of the Apostles Paul, John, and Peter but have said this without saying it.
You can lie,murder,committ adultery and the like and still go to heaven.
Let me ask you this one question! Can a Christian have the free will to committ adultery? Is that Christian an adulterer?
As an example the Bible warns believers that adulterers won't inherit the kingdom.
6:8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren. 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
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T_G you're doing the name calling thing again (Smile),
The wild olive branch Paul is referring to the Gentile nation at this time.The natural branches (Israel) the wild olive branch (Gentile and non Jewish believers).
As far as My beliefs I do not believe in the trinity but not because of the Oneness Pentecostalism
I don't believe it because I can't find it in scripture. Also History tells me that this doctrine was not declared until 325 A.D It is sad because this has been a heated argument every since those Pagans hijacked the church and started teaching something that the early Apostles did not teach.Anyone who will do a true study of church history has to at least acknowledge that truth.
Spinning scripture is not what I attempt to do. I only share what I have found in my studies on the Bible. If you can't see the truth in scripture then say that but don't be calling no names (Smile)
I would not call a Christians who (referring to 1 John)were conforming to the world's standard, failing to stand up for Christ and compromising their faith Gnostic's. Backsliders maybe but certainly not Gnostic's. Yes T_G we all make mistakes But what the writer was telling us the New Covenant
folks was if God did not spare them he won't spare us either if we choose to do what they did and not repent of our sins. Grace is not a straight jacket you can choose to enact freewill but it will cost you if the rapture takes place. |  |
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Jeff, again you make my point. Who said everyone who holds to OSAS teaches that a person can't fall away from the faith??? Mischaracterizations of opposing positions do nothing to encourage a healthy discussion.
Here's one explanation of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, with some scriptures to support it. Also included is a direct refutation of the allegation that holiness is ignored (cheap grace) by those who hold to this doctrine. You should at least get to know the other view before you try to debate it. (I don't mean to belittle anyone, I'm simply stating this matter of factly.)
God bless you, brothers. ~mike |
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Eternal security affirms that all who are truly regenerated will undoubtedly go to heaven.
Misconceptions:
Critics of Perseverance of the Saints believe that Perseverance of the Saints will cause the body of Christ to become filled with carnality because Perseverance of the Saints teaches “free grace.” Perseverance of the Saints does not teach free grace, that is, that a person can ask for forgiveness and then live however he or she wants! People think that Perseverance of the Saints doesn’t care about sanctification but only justification. This couldn’t be further from the truth! Perseverance of the Saints teaches that those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the holy image of Christ. When a person becomes a genuine Christian we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God who grieves within us at our sin.
So then we have those who are truly save and those who are pretending to be saved only problem is with so many different views on who is really saved you almost have to wait until the rapture to see. and mike you are right we need to have healthy discussions.
3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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Mike-
I have studied this topic for years. I'm not saying that OSAS teachers always openly promote it is OK to sin, but the teaching as I have seen countless times not only is unbiblical but inoculates christians from working out their salvation with fear and trembling. I believe a christian can be and is very secure in their salvation but must be watchful and alert in the schemes of satan, temptations, and not to sow to the sinful nature. I do know about the 5 points of Calvinism called the Persevering of the Saints which is nothing more than predestination. God predestines some to go to hell?
Do you believe we have free will to accept or reject Christ?
Also, you haven't answered my question above?
Can a Christian have the free will to committ adultery? Is that Christian an adulterer?
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Michael-
I once heard Andrew Wommack teach that adultery is permissable but not beneficial using 1 Corinthians 10:23 as a support scripture. Run for the hills. False teaching and false teacher. |
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I have listened to every message Andrew Wommack has and I have never heard him say anything like that. A lot of people misunderstand Andrew because they do not listen to him long enough for him to make his point. Apparently, you are one of those, evidenced by the fact that you deleted my comment! |
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Michael-
I listened to him for months as he taught from his book Body, Soul, and Spirit. False teaching, false teacher. |
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Spirit, Soul & Body is a great lesson. Do you have some problem believing that our Spirt has been made as pure and Holy as Jesus? |
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| Michael-Do you believe it is permissable but not beneficial for you to committ adultery meaning it won't effect your recreated Spirit-man? |
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The Circus On a tightrope I inch along
Careful not to do any wrong
One misstep and I will fall
As the rope wavers I stall
How did I ever get to this place
Far from GOD's mercy and grace
The roar of the lion terrifies
So many questions so many whys
A whip in one hand in the other a chair
The lion senses my fear and despair
How did I ever get to this place
Far from GOD's mercy and grace
Painted face with a painted smile
Amusing others I clown for awhile
Pretending to enjoy when really I'm sad
Saying life is good when really it's bad
How did I ever get to this place
Far from GOD's mercy and grace
Play my game and you will win
Carnies entice again and again
For just a little you will get a lot
Surely it is worth at least one shot
How did I ever get to this place
Far from GOD's mercy and grace
Beyond the festivity of the circus tent
Are people living life as it was meant
People who walk on solid ground
People who never clown around
How can I ever get to this place
Near to GOD's mercy and grace
Leaving the trappings of the show
Getting away from the spotlight's glow
As I distance myself from expectation
In His presence is peaceful relaxation
All my works had kept me from this place
Where I feel His love and see His face
Faith is not what we do but who we are
Faith never performs or is a superstar
It simply believes in GOD's mercy and grace
It finds comfort in looking into Father's face
Faith is a small child who has a big trust
Knowing that GOD will do what He must
My Father's home is a wondrous place
I will live daily in His mercy and grace
.....peace.....
Duet. 4:4 But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your GOD are alive everyone of you this day.
Cleave means to hold on to no matter what.
This is indisputable eternal security.
.....peace..... |
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| Steve-What's up? So are you saying we are not to expose false teaching? Read 2 Peter, 1st John, and Paul's letter to many of the new test. churches? If your goal is to just all get along, satan will just jump right in bed with ya. This is not Summer Love and Woodstock. Paul , Peter, and John all called people out specifically that were false teachers. That's one reason they were persecuted! |
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Jeff -
I am through with this blog. I also resent the fact that you call Andrew Wommack a false teacher. Like, I said, I have listened to every message he has. Never has he said it is permissible to commit adultery.
Maybe you just have a hard time believeing that God is no longer imputing our sins against us.
4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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Michael-
Past repented for sins. Not all your future sins. They are paid for by the blood of Jesus but not forgiven until we repent and confess them. You never answered my question? Bye! |
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Steve-
My point is that this is not just about all just getting along. You didn't answer my question. So are you saying we are not to expose false teaching and false teachers? |
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LorenDP |
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December 06, 2007 at 10:55am |
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It's been an interesting discussion. The back and forth discussion got a little tense. That's why I commented that any discussion such as this must be done in a spirit of humility. We must always speak the truth in love. Even if it is a rebuke.
Jeff - exposing false doctrine is a difficult task to do biblically. One mans false doctrine is another mans true doctrine. I think that if we focus on the Gospel...the good news of Christ crucified for us and risen again victorious over sin and death....that everything else is secondary. Some of this discussion has been fruitful....but some has not.
I would encourage all to prayerfully consider your words before putting them down. We must not allow Satan to get hold of issues like this and cause divisiveness in the body of Christ. If we must separate fellowship over an issue or disagreement....do so in love and prayer. Look at the story of Paul and John Mark in the New Testament....Paul couldn't stand John Mark early on...and had very little use for the young man...but by some later letters John Mark was considered a friend...and had fruitful works for Christ. We're not always going to agree on everything...but if we must disagree we must strive to do so without causing harm....and we must still show love to the brother or sister that we disagree with...
I'm rambling....I just have been in circles where all that was focused on was the negative and gossip and hurtful words....it just doesn't benefit anyone.
May God bless and strengthen all who have taken part in this discussion and may His Truth and Love be revealed to those who seek it. |
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| Thanks for your input LorenDP. |
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| I do have to add, though, that like i said before, and it one of my blogs, the only way I will "debate" such things is if that person's salvation is on the line. I know many "Calvinists" living righteously, loving and serving the Lord more so than many of us who are not Calvinists. Why shake up someone who already has a genuine love for God? I know what I believe and why, and I will push it to save ppl, not to argue with my righteous brother or sister. This, I believe, is how God wants me to approach it. |
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| Even many "Calvinist" teachers are, I believe, God-ordained. Charles Stanley. Honestly, I do flinch when he straight out says you can't lose your salvation, but you eat the meat and spit out the bones. And Smith Wigglesworth! Like, he was baptised in the Holy Ghost, and he walked in love (most important thing) and he was a Calvinist. My husband is softening some, but he is very strongly opposed to this doctrine too, but I told him, so far as ppl like Wigglesworth go, how do we know that, due to his strong passion for Jesus, that in that, he just believed once saved always saved, because he couldn't imagine anyone in their right mind walking away from such a wonderful thing? So I like to give them the benefit of the doubt. Jesus simply said you would know them by their fruits. I am not copping out either. This is my own personal approach towards it, that I feel is right. When I have to confront it, I do. |
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Lara-thanks. The power of teaching Jesus says was like leven. Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees. I have met many people who have believed this and it kept them petting their sin. It's the teaching that is hurtful. The may be walking with close with the Lord but the teaching hurts others just like some teach that Jesus doesn't heal today. Hurts people. that is why Paul taught Timothy to watch his doctrine closely. He told Titus;
1:9 he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.
Pretty straight forward. |
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| Yes, some ppl will take advantage of it. Teaching it can be a very dangerous thing when given to the wrong person, but if someone loves Jesus, they will naturally do what pleases Him. I just think it stinks when it causes division. |
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Sometimes division is good when you divide the truth from error. Paul talks about that. The ones that are causing divisions are the ones with false teaching. Listen to Paul.
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
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Yep, the can of worms are out!
I look at things from an eternal point of view, so when I see those who God has predestined and He knows will be there and who will not, He will lose none of His He has called, chosen and come into agreement.
But I believe the reason for this blog is to find scriptures and reasoning to a common issue for the benefit of conversion with true repentance.
Although the bible is fact and not an opinion (and note to Pastor Elam, before any kind of 'tampering' was done we still have the 2nd century Peshitta in Aramaic; a great read) we see as through a glass, prophesying in part and knowing in part with different parts of the body in Christ, whetere we are a Wigglesworth or not. When coming against a saved or unsaved attitude of "I can do what I want and still make it" ," I just want a get-out-of-hell-free-card" true deliverance or salvation is the freedom from your own mind of "what-about-me" attitude. A new creature that has accepted the love of self-sacrifice (we love Him because He first loved us) and what about my neighbor. The great commission tells us to teach to observe my commandments, which many people are multi-leveled in the flesh and need to renew their mind to have the mind of Christ.
Although evangelism is my "thing" it is of great importance to continue to grow "baby Christians" and not to leave them abandoned on the doorstep. Although "healing" and "miracles" are my thing, there is nothing like having a relationship with God on a moment to moment basis.
Bottom line for me is the lifetime of a person which includes lifestyle, empowerment and purpose... |
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Ken |
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December 06, 2007 at 3:42pm |
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Wow! To quote Ron Burgundy, "Boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast." I think the deception that needs to be confronted squarely is not whether you believe you have eternal security, but whether you believe that eternal security provides free access to allow patterns of sin to continue in your life. If someone believes that (or teaches that), that would be a belief and teaching that needs to be confronted and exposed in love and humility with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I have a spiritual mentor that is the most balanced pentecostal I have ever met. He also happens to lean more towards Calvinist teachings, including Calvin's beliefs on eternal security. I also happen to know that he would never believe or teach that eternal security in Christ means that anyone has a free pass to allow sin to thrive in their lives.
Personally, I have always struggled with eternal security teachings, mostly because I have known so many Christians that believed this way and wanted to live a holy life, but struggled with habitual sin in their lives. I have always believed and still believe that what Christians need more than anything is to have their self-image of being "In Christ" reformed, renewed and brought to life. If that happens, I tend to think this whole debate would be rendered moot to the Christian living fully the life they were intended to live as someone "In Christ".
Well, I think I've said enough...I'll step down off the soapbox for now and let someone else have the microphone.
Much love to all of you. |
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to all... I'd love to jump in here, but - I think Mike would agree - we've BEAT this horse to death already on 2 other blogs... here's the link to one of them, if you care to see where I stand, along with countless others. I do happen to believe in Eternal Security, and well stated my case for it there.
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/30669/Arguments-Against-Once-Saved-Always-Saved
Semper Fidelis! |
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a clip from another blog on this subject...
My quick 2 cents worth... 1. If you could NOT do anything to EARN your salvation, what then can you possibly do to KEEP it? 2. You're born only ONCE physically, and born ONLY ONCE spiritually... if you can become "UN-born" spiritually, can you also become UN-born physically? 3. How many sins is TOO many, to the point where a believer "crosses the line" and is somehow "lost" again? Is it "ONE and you're done"? "TWO and you're through?" "THREE strikes and you're out?" "FOUR and no more?" Is this mysterious number a generic sum, applicable to all, or is each believer allowed a certain number on a case-by-case basis? 4. If you do lose your salvation, as some believe is possible, does that mean you have to be
"born again-AGAIN" or "saved again" or "re-saved?" How about if you "backslide" countless times? Do you just keep adding "RE" to saved, or "AGAIN" to the prior "agains"? ( IN the NT, I see NO reference or USE of the term "backslider/backsliding"...) 5. If you are now "not your own, but are bought with a price" then is your own "free will" able to undo your salvation, negating the saving and keeping power of Christ? Do you honestly have the power to UNSEAL what God's Spirit has SEALED UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION? 6. In the infamous story of the "prodical son", did the "prodical son" lose his sonship during his season of prodical living? Is this NOT a story of restoration, rather than of salvation or being "saved again"? Was the younger son's "sonship" restored, or was the FELLOWSHIP actually restored, since the son remained a son thru all of his time away? Did the father EVER refer to his youngest son in any other term besides "son?" 7. If Jesus is our Good Shepherd, and His statement in John 10:28-29 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand" says that NOONE can snatch us out of His grip, then does NOONE exclude the individual "sheep" himself/herself? 8. When Christ died on Calvary's cross, did His sacrifice pay IN FULL mankind's sin debt for all past, present and future sin? By placing your faith in Him, doesn't that also mean that ALL of your sins - past, present & future - are forgiven as well? Doesn't that mean that your salvation of your soul is complete/finished upon conversion? Isn't that what the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" in regards to the COMPLETE salvation of the believer's soul? I rest my case FOR eternal security with I John 3:7-9 "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." WHEN YOU'RE "BORN AGAIN" INTO THE KINGDOM, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE AGENT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN YOUR SALVATION. WHEN GOD'S SEED (HIS SPIRIT) REGENERATES THE BELIEVER, THE BELIEVER'S CAPACITY TO GO BACK INTO, AND REMAIN IN WILLFULL SIN IS NULLIFIED! Not that we're perfect or teach perfection, but that sin is NO LONGER our nature! When you're His child, you are NOT exempt from sin, but rather your life is NOT characterized by sin! In other words, a believer might fall down, but WILL NOT fall away... I John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." I John 2:19-22 " They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." I could go on and on with more reasoning and scriptural references, but I leave off with this. I'm so thankful that the same God Who saved me from sin is able to KEEP me from sin, and my soul is TOTALLY SAVED! I'm saved, sealed, and delivered! Semper Fidelis! Joel |
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link to the "blog that started it all" on this subject... at least for me here on MyChurch... it gets heated, but both sides make GREAT, well researched and thought-out points! It would be worth the read for you, or review for those of us who posted there.
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/15834/Once-saved-always-saved |
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1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? There has always been division in the body of Christ and hardly anyone agree on one issue. but the bible says there is One Lord,One Faith, One Baptism that means there is an absolute truth and then there is truth and error mixed. We would never know unless we had dialogue like this
This also causing us to dig deeper into the scripture to see if it is true or false about what different
ppl have said on this blog. al'l I can say is if you run across something in studing that you did see before don't be afraid to let the lord open you're understanding to his truth his word is true.
4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 4:13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: Whatever we do let us do it in love.The question rings true today as in Paul's day. I am of Paul: and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas: and I of Christ. Let me update I am of Baptist: and I of Methodist: and I of Calvinists: and I of Oneness Pentecostalism. Is Christ divided? NO are we divided? Yes after disagreeing do I still love my brother or sister??????? You better.
To all of my MyChurch Family; We got to love one another like sisters and brothers we got to be real kind till the end of time. Treat everybody right make sure your heart is right. What you do to other will come back to you. Man I love all of ya |
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Amen, Ken. This is something of what I was looking for on another blog re Holiness that went this same direction. There is a quality of life that the Spirit IMPARTS to us that enables us to begin living and moving in that fresh direction. A quality of God-life that is pure and powerful and totally other than the 'life' around us in the world. But people being what we are, live up to or down to the expectations we and others have. And people without a vision, people perish. They simply never enter into that level of life in the Spirit because they don't know it's there or worse, have been taught that it's not available anymore. If we were consistently taught and moved into a walk with God that was intimate and pure and powerful and full of joyous passion and overcoming, the question of continuing to wallow in patterns of unrepentant sin would be for the most part moot. No? I mean, who in their right mind would want to? (Or right heart) |
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Wyatt-
Can you believe for a while(saved) and then fall away(unsaved)? 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
yes or no?
What about laying hands to ordain too early and allow a young person to get filled with pride and fall under the condemnation of the devil?
3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
What is the condemnation of the devil? This is a believer and he can fall under the condemnation of the devil?
Paul taught Timothy that good doctrine could save both Timothy's listener and himself. So Paul warned Timothy to watch his life and doctrine closely.
4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
So in conclusion with the clear scriptural references above, you can believe for a while and fall away. You can fall into pride and then fall into the condemnation of the devil. And you must watch your life and doctrine closely so by doing so you will save yourself and your hearers. Yes a believer can end up in hell! |
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Jeff-
I respect your views, as I used to hold similar ones until 1999 or so, when I prayed and sought both the Word and the Lord's guidance on this. I defended my views on those other blogs and I welcome you to take a look at them. I must respectfully disagree with you on this one, my brother. Do I constantly preach my convictions on this particular issue from the pulpit and try to shove it down someone's throat? No. But if the matter does come up, whether in a sermon or when questioned away from the pulpit, I am not ashamed to state my position. Grace is NOT a license to sin, but the FREEDOM from sin. I'll leave it at that for now. Please... I'd be honored if you did read those other blog posts that I made, and then look at both sides of the issue in an objective as way possible. That's how my views beagn to change. |
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Wyatt-
I have read your blogs and have studied the topic on both sides in depth. How long since you changed your views on this topic?
You have not answered my questions above? Please do. |
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