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| Desiring To Be Teachers... |
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2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I think we all come to a place at some point when we are standing in a group of people who we feel are ALL not in agreement with something we feel right...yet we rarely consider that maybe it is us who have it wrong. Even some, with self-discipline will first evaluate their personal belief to see if by chance they are out of whack but...it does happen.
So what does a true Christian do when he or she feels like the rest are missing the mark. According to many of the responses I see on mychurch blogs, they bash the others into pieces and mock their belief system and tell the poor souls how obvious their stupidity is...and when asked why they are so inclined to be so harsh they respond with "Jesus and Paul did it." Interesting theological standpoint.
Yet it would seem to me obvious that Jesus and Paul also stated to speak with compassion, to render evil with good, to walk in humility...etc. Furthur more, it seems to me that their real agenda is to force their own doctrine on other believers...even though it starts as just a loving comment...b/c in the end the tone is simply anger and rage. Jesus was rough at times. He had limited time and the pharisees new better. But His love was never in question b/c they KNEW Him. He had relationships, He performed miracles...He knew He was going to die. Not to place Paul near Jesus but Paul preached gentileness. His harshness was towards people he knew and had relationships with. The previous verse to the ones at the start of this blog is:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. The word used for reprove means to convince of wrong, to admonish...so the rebuke is sandwhiched in a loving relationship...one that the screamers don't have.
It furthurmore seems to me that those of us...and I say us...who feel the need to disagree on someone elses blog should do so very carefully...not deliberately causing offense and should first consider if commenting is necessary at all...I do apologize but there seems to be a great many self-proclaimed subject matter experts who are forcing their opinions on issues of great importance and then mock those of that belief.
That is as ridiculous as being a baptist, going to a united pentecostal church, and openly rebuking the members for speaking in tongues. Now will the Holy Spirit lead one to challenge another? Yes He will...but the path for such is laid out in the Bible and the fruit of the Spirit will be on you tongue. The rebuke is sandwiched in a relationship and followed up in patience and the Word.
We must all look at ourselves and see ourselves for who we really are. I have in my Christian youth stated the very words "Jesus did it..." and learned hard lessons.
I value an opinion that is stated in love...but I could care less for the opinions of the self proclaimed teachers who feel the need to bash the path so that they can validate their own weaknesses and dissobedience b/c in the end that is what is actually going on.
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Kathy |
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December 13, 2007 at 4:29am |
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| Good post, Patrick! Why do Christians struggle so with the "love" thing? If we truly love someone (not just say the word) we will not harshly attack each other's views, but will reason together in humility. |
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R |
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December 13, 2007 at 4:46am |
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Hey Patrick, At the airlines (as a reservation clerk), my wife was trained to let the customer climb the anger mountain so that at some point they could enter a stable altitude. It's difficult to understand another person's reason for being so unkept, without letting them get there. What's more difficult is to withstand our own emotions from getting involved while it is reaching that plateu. Healings happen when people will allow people like the ones you are talking about to go further than they have been able to go before. Anger stems from fear. What is causing it, that's the question. In the body of Christ there are some very wounded members that are seeking for acceptance. And in my opinion, they need to climb that anger mountian without rejection but with the patience of Christ, so they can reach that point when fear is not the issue so that healing can begin. We can't put everybody into these pretty little boxes. Some people have some pretty ugly injuries. Injuries that require special techniques. Another question is, are we mature enough? R. |
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Patrick, this is a very constructive message. What I've seen time and time again are folks who refuse to even make the attempt to analyze an opposing point of view, or where the other person is coming from....in an argument or debate, that is. My response triggers your response, which triggers my followup response, triggering your followup.... I guess that would be what happens when two who desire to be teachers encounter each other?
I've learned another great technique of love. It's called "walk away". This isn't necessarily how to express love for the one I'm debating, but it certainly is a great way to express love towards other readers or those I could be helping instead of occupying my time in fruitless debates! I'm pretty sure this is why Jesus said there would be a time for shaking the dust off your feet and leaving.
R, the "anger moutain" analogy cracked me up. |
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Coreena |
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December 13, 2007 at 7:25am |
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| Patrick, great blog. I have not known what to say to some of these people that come off as so sure they are right--to the hurt of others in the body of Christ. So I have done the "walk away" thing as Mike spoke of above. I don't want to involve myself in fruitless disagreements. It grieves my spirit to see Christians treat each other so poorly, even if we disagree. Thank you for making a constructive suggestion as to how to approach disagreements---The rebuke is sandwiched in a relationship and followed up in patience and the Word. The way of love always works better than our own self-righteous ways. Again, great blog! |
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Gene |
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December 13, 2007 at 11:29am |
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Thanks for the post, Patrick.
My problem is that I empathize too much and become emotionally engaged. It's good to "feel" the other person's pain but I need to learn to let it go at times and not either feel sorry for them or feel anger toward them - just love. |
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Kimmy |
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December 13, 2007 at 1:35pm |
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| We are supposed to admonish others in love. Without love we have nothing. Pray for the opening up of their understanding. this was a very good post. thanks for sharing it. |
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Kimmy |
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December 13, 2007 at 1:38pm |
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| I also wanted to add, that there is a time when God gives us a holy boldness to preach, teach, and correct others in the word without reserve, and when these times come we must do it unapologetically. Yet keep in mind, God will let you know when it is time to use this tactic. |
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Paul |
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December 13, 2007 at 5:39pm |
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| I agree Pat, especially when the disagreements are of doctrinal issues that are not of the "essentials", no need for bickering. However we can sometimes take this to the extreme and get to the point where everyone's "theology" is valid. I believe in the essentials, doctrinal purity is a must! But still, those debates should be in love not to prove you are right! |
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R |
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December 13, 2007 at 5:50pm |
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Hey...
After the shootings here in Colorado, knowing that this kid was at one time a part of the Church group… some people ask themselves, “was I patient enough… could I have been the soothing balm to defuse this kid… who listened to him?” If Jesus hadn’t been with Simon Peter… how many more ears and heads would he have attempted to cut off? Is the better choice to exit stage left? Maybe sometimes. But how much are we willing to ride the storm out with people who really aren’t our brothers and sisters (same parents)? Just makes me wonder, that’s all. Just makes me wonder. R… |
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Well...let me try this. Kathy, without love, we are nothing...I read that somewhere...thanky for your comment...always enjoy them.
R and Kim...please understand...I am not afraid of confrontation. And there is a place to let people vent...and that happens within and outside of a relationship and sometimes you are confronted with a person who will not refute...but this blog is not about how we should deal with those individuals but actually in reference to those who refuse to deal with their issues and choose to attack. I agree that there is a time for a rebuke...but it is to be done in love and within the confines of privacy with all longsuffering...furthermore...if you have not convinced the one in question of the err of their ways, the rebuke is meaningless and really probably nothing more than one done in reaction...which is never cool.
But at some point, those dealing with hurts must put the gun down and allow healing. I can speak from my own history...this guy has been hurt...if I choose, I can find many reasons to walk away from all of this and blame all of you for the actions of a few individuals...but that is wrong. And my topic is geared towards the person taking the offensive, not the defensive. Should you allow a person to blow up on you...that is a difficult call and each situation is different. But the question I am asking is why one feels it is ok to blow up on someone else and how it is rationalized incorrectly as if we have not only justification in doing it but the right to do it and that somehow acting in rage is godly...bull--og--knee (ancient greek for bologne)
And R, healings do not necessarily happen when we let people act in rage...venting and rage are two different entities...venting yields a release of pressure by definition...rage is cancerous...it grows everytime it is used. What you say sounds good, but must be applied with great care. And dissernment is vital in knowing the difference. Typically in an airline people are frustrated with good cause...maybe in the church too. But venting crosses a line when attacks begin. Proper venting is done on the side...and in here it is cool too, but to cross the line...call the ball. Much of what I see is plain rage. Does ministry need to take place...for sure...but sometimes ministry is held at bay b/c God is revealing an attitude of sin that first must be dealt with...
Mike...walk away is a tough one b/c as Gene said, you get engaged and want to see a person to freedom...but to walk in freedom is a choice we must each make for ourselves. Thank you for the comment...as always, Gene you too.
Coreena, thank you for your comment. It is difficult for me to see a controversial blog and not comment, but I have yet to see a good response...and thankfully due to my time restraints, I just can't take the time anymore. Walk away. I would not personally advise anyone to sit there and let someone scream at them...it seems noble enough but that does nothing for edification...shall we let a husband sontinue to scream at his wife b/c he has issues...or visa versa. Certainly not. Everything in love and we pick our battles with extreme care. If I am not sure if I should speak, I say nothing now. It is my fail safe. If the Lord wills me to speak, I will have no choice...He will give me no peace.
Paul, from the perspective of flawed doctrines, I do feel compelled to speak up within my echelon of influence. If I am not attached to a group that seems to be holding a gun to their heads, I will try to warn them of the impending danger...of course if the Lord leads I will follow...but sometimes the best lesson learned comes at the cost of great loss...especially within ourselves. Not to be taken out of context...but sometimes we must lose ourselves to find ourselves...and when God is disciplining His children by turning them over to their passions and we choose to get in the way...we are the person standing up in the line of fire. God doesn't ask us to always rescue His lost children...sometimes a little water needs to get in the lungs for the kid to learn to stay away from the pool???
But within the echelon...it is on.
I think dealing the rebuke is and always will be an issue of personal agenda, love for the person, and responsibility to the person as well as obedience to God. If we keep all in check...cool...and again the fruit of the spirit will be on our tongue. If not, we are ranting and raving. |
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| And Paul, right on with the theology valid thing...that is an outright lie. We sometimes desire to keep "peace" within the body at the cost of everything we stand for. Only valid theologies are valid...outstanding |
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R |
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December 14, 2007 at 5:34am |
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Hey Reader, Uh oh... now I'm going to comment back, to what Patrick said to me. Patrick said, "and R, healings do not necessarily happen when we let people act in rage..." Maybe... but I do think it worked for the centurion who watched as Jesus was crucified, and Paul at the stoning of Stephen. Another that comes to mind is Helen Keller. How could this deaf blind woman reached usefulness, if her nurse/helper/teacher would have shut her down and walked off, because she vented or raged? Answer: she probably couldn't have. Again, if Jesus would had shut down on Peter and walked off, how many ears and heads would he have tried to cut off? Someone needed to be Peter's doormat and punching bag. Anger/fear must be exhausted. We don't take up our cross with the hopes that we will be dealt with gently. We take it up knowing that we are to be the sacrifice on God's behalf for others. What would have been helpful is, if God would have put an upset meter in the center of our foreheads. Can you visulize that? A meter with a pointer that goes from 1-10. If we had that, maybe we would try a little harder and longer with people to see if the thing would move toward zero, after it went up to 10. Just my two cents, R... P.S. The reason people rage here (in my opinion), is because they can let out what they haven't been able to do in person/public. Time however is the enemy, to deal with them. If they can be dealt with through writing (just my opinion). |
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R...I hope you understand that I am not saying you are wrong...the key is dissernment. We are as sheep LED to the slaughter...not sheep looking for it. Will the Lord expect us to "bear up the burdens of the weak" yes and yes. But the key is to walk in love...love bears and endures and believes...so in that I agree...but I stress a limitation
your cents are priceless |
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And R, I stand by what I said...healings happen where love abounds...sometimes one plants, another waters. But to just let someone act in rage...would you let me attack you...or our family moreover hoping that I find my peace...definitely not. A simple rant is much different than an all out attack. Both seem to begin close to the same but are fueled from two different sources...again dissernment and obedience to God and love... |
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What an excellent piece of writing!
I believe it is better to voice a simple opinion than to argue, or perhaps ask a question. Nothing is accomplished for God by arguing and bickering over differences of opinion.
Are we not all Children of God? If so, isn't God the common denominator, not us? |
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| Yes Joey, but then one has to ask if the arguing continues is God even in the denominator. That is an unfortunate truth. But for all who believe, we should find something to stand together for in Jesus Christ. Thanks for the comment. |
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Brandy |
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March 17, 2008 at 6:46pm |
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| This is a great topic. I look forward to reading more of your thought provoking blogs. |
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| Well...thanks! I lood forward to hearing what you have to say...thanks for popping in |
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Gene |
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March 18, 2008 at 7:16am |
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Patrick, I once heard a person give an excellent example of the difference between venting and rage. "Venting is when you open the top and let the steam out. Rage is when you direct that steam at somebody's face."
Release. We release our sin and receive forgiveness. We release our frustrations and receive healing. We have to let go in order to receive. |
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| Gene I agree with that...a person should have an environment in which he or she can release and blw off the steam...but there is a time and place |
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| And in these cases, that is not what is happening. |
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