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| A(nother) Modest Proposal |
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With a struggling economy, a war in Iraq, immigration issues, unemployment, Darfur, healthcare concerns, Iran, . . . (you fill in the blank), is our main issue in the 2008 election really gay people?! Do we buy into the propaganda that if we are Christians, we should choose our next president on that issue above all others? Some apparently hope we will believe that.
Yesterday the California-based Campaign for Children and Families (their name is the beginning of the propaganda), posted the following GOP voting guide:
REPORT CARD ON THE NATURAL FAMILY
YES = Position in support of the natural family
NO = Position against the natural family
? = unknown or unclear position | | Giuliani | Huckabee | McCain | Paul | Romney | Thompson | | SCORE (8 possible points in support of the natural family) | 1 | 7 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 3 | | Protecting Civil Marriage Rights for One Man and One Woman | | | | | | | | Protected marriage and marriage rights | NO | YES | ? | ? | NO | ? | | Opposed marriage counterfeits such as domestic partnerships | NO | YES | ? | YES | NO | ? | | Adoption by Both a Father and a Mother | | | | | | | | Opposed homosexual couples adopting children | ? | YES | ? | YES | NO | ? | | Protecting the Natural Family | | | | | | | | Opposed forcing private business owners to support homosexuality | NO | YES | YES | YES | NO | YES | | Opposed establishing or expanding pro-homosexuality "hate crime" laws | NO | YES | YES | YES | ? | YES | | Refused to support "Gay Pride Day" | NO | YES | YES | YES | NO | YES | | Protecting the Boy Scouts | | | | | | | | Opposed to having homosexuals in the Boy Scouts | ? | ? | ? | YES | NO | ? | | Protecting Schoolchildren | | | | | | | | Opposed teaching schoolchildren to support homosexuality | YES | YES | YES | YES | NO | ? |
Click here for 24-page original report
Look carefully at this rubric. Under the Christian-sounding guise of "protecting the family," this entire list is about homosexuals. Besides the question of how homosexuality is damaging our families, the big question here is "Is this the main issue on which we want to choose the next president of the United States?" If so, please humor me by considering a few quick questions: 1) How many children of the state or children's home residents have you spent hours getting to know? Listening to their stories of being moved from family to family, or wanting "a real family" more than anything in the world. How many of your Christian friends are willing to adopt, love, and take care of the hard-to-place children with physical defects or chronic diseases? Is it really so important to you to stop them from being placed in a loving home because the parent might be homosexual? We are not even talking here about a choice between a 2-parent family and a homosexual person. The choice is a loving parent or no one. (The fear that homosexuals are child-molesters is no more founded than that of heterosexuals. It's a given that everyone should be properly screened before being allowed to adopt children.) 2) Can you explain in your own words how passing laws against homosexuals protects the American family? Will it make them heterosexual? Are we more secure when the homosexual man is marrying our daughter to keep from being labeled an outcast of society? He may love her and provide for her, and she may never know why she feels unable to bring him happiness, but she always knows something is missing. This seems to me the bigger threat to the family. If we stop treating gay people as outcasts, they will no longer feel the need to marry for appearances. 3) How many gay people do you know personally? How many of their stories have you listened to face to face? How many do you work with everyday without knowing it? How many are in your family and would never consider telling you? What would your reaction be if they did? How many grew up in your church but stopped attending when they were old enough to make that choice, having gleaned the understanding that God does not love them? (This is the saddest part of all!) 4) Before adopting this as your top 2008 campaign issue, how much time have you spent researching the subject of homosexuality, not just from your own viewpoint, but from the opposing one as well, to get a fuller picture? 5) If "protecting the family" is really our nation's number one issue, how can we best do that? By attending church together regularly? By regularly spending quality time with our children? By modeling our faith for them, and our love for all of God's children, even those we don't understand? Or by picketing and signing petitions against homosexuals?  In 1729 Jonathan Swift wrote the classic example of satire in his A Modest Proposal. His proposal was for how to deal with the problems of poverty and the overpopulation of children in Ireland. (If you've never read it, it's a great read.) Following is my own much shorter Modest Proposal for how to deal with this number one national issue: A law. That's what we need. Let's pass a law that all homosexual persons, male and female, must register as such in a national registry, at which time they will be branded on the right forearm with an identifying triangle for life and enlisted in a special "no need to ask or tell" military and sent to Iraq. All heterosexual soldiers can then return home to their families, and when we hear of soldiers being killed in the war, there will no reason for grief. They will all be gay.
This solution seems perfect. It will bring home the troops, provide military protection for the nation, rid the nation of homosexuals, and clear our dark alleys. OK, Campaign for Children and Families, define Christianity however you wish. I will choose, however, to define it in terms of love, not hate. I will continue to think through issues for myself, by examining the life and teachings of Jesus the Christ. I will be a safe person to whom any homosexual friends and family can come. I will share with them the truth, that God loves them, and I love them. And I will have more important issues on which to base my vote for the next president.
3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Disclaimer: I am a registered Independent, and this blog is not meant to be an endorsement for any particular candidate or party.
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Kathy, Thank you for bringing this matter "out of the closet." A very wise man that I used to know, who happened to live a homosexual lifestyle at one point in his life, said there is no scale of sin. None are higher, or lower than others; all sin is equal in the eyes of God because it all separates us from Him. I have known many gay people in my life and they have all been wonderful people. By the way, none were chld molesters and none were drawn toward abnormally younger partners. They were all hard working people trying to get through life just like the rest of us. I'm with you and will chose to define my life in terms of love, not hate. Blessings, Melinda |
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Boy ! Have you done it now and I love you for it (LOL)...
I have pondered the question of Homo vs Hetero for so long, I just finally gave up. I have listened to the pros and cons, the why it should or should not be from both sides of the human fence.
I have come to the realization that god LOVES ALL OF HIS CHILDREN. He loved us so much that he gave US FREE WILL. In giving us this gift he gave US the right to choose the course we would take in life. We follow his word or we folllow whatever!!! BUT HE ALONE GAVE US THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE.
He also gave us his SON, who gave his LIFE for his children.
3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
We are to CONFESS our sins and believe in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. It is up to him to pass judgement.
I have Heterosexual friends and Homosexual friends. I was not put on this earth to judge and cast stones. I was put here to LOVE and spread the GOSPEL of my SAVIOR.
MUCH LOVE
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| As a Christian well into the "Golden Years", having lived a life of public service as teacher, community volunteer, international missions team leader, etc. - I have known and worked with many people of different races, political beliefs, religions, and gender orientations. I know without a shadow of a doubt that God lives every one of them, and that Jesus died for everyone. Of all people, Christians are the ones who should be on the cutting edge of inclusion, not exclusion. |
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Kathy, there you go again...calling a spade a spade!
While I totally agree with you - that this topic is not worthy of a national agenda, it is indeed an issue. Since people have strong feelings about the issue, it can't be ignored - some, as you have pointed out, have gone to great lengths to show their "opinions".
You and I have talked publicly and privately about the homosexual issue overall. As you know, I have walked with some. I have known some individuals who were evil and lurking to find "young flesh". I also have known individuals who have happily left the lifestyle as well as some who continue in it happily.
What I find exceptionally sad is that we, as a church, do not know how to treat people who are outside what we consider the norm. I believe, in this, you and I are in violent agreement. People should stop their complaining and walk with them, talk with them, learn with them, listen to them...by the way "them" is anybody that is different.
BTW, your "law" is a hoot.
Let's get on to things that really matter... |
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I'll have to tell you Kathy that this is one of the hardest issues I have had to face. I have had family and friends who have chosen that lifestyle. I went through a period of time where literally every woman I had a crush on turned out to be lesbian. I watched, and not specifically singleing them out, but it is the thrust of the conversation, people coming out of the closet destroy families, friendships, and even groups of people. I've also watched people in the closet diea slow death hiding their sin. I've watched as "modern free thinking" society has destroyed the ability of many young men and women to have healthy friendships with members of the same sex, they force them into thinking that they must be gay when they have those close feelings. So while I agree that this is not a single issue the radical intrusion of a select group of the homosexual community has caused this (in the same way as the Christian right on the other extreme) to become an out front issue. I guess that we, as the Church, have become so complacent to sin, in general, that these issues have become focal points where we can hang our hats and say we're being looking out for morality.
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| Sorry, this posted before I was finished with my thought. Here's the problem I end up with, I have very strong feelings about the wrong nature of homosexuality, but I find myself often in a position of friendship, and occasionally in close friendships with people of the lifestyle. I end up with this intense burden that borders on painful for these ones. I most often find that I work very hard at affirming them and jealously guard the secret of their preferences, especially if their in the closet. So I believe I've probably answered my own question, but if nothing else I love them severly, and pray strongly for their salvation and healing. Often I also find ,my own sin revealed and brought into God's grace, but I never, ever, ever look down on them, I know all too well that my sin is lurking in the wings to overtake me! |
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| Personally I find this difficult to deal with, but our politically correct openminded views may be why we are struggling. But we have to start drawing the line some where and hopefully drawing the line with Love. |
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Kathy, I couldn't agree with you more. We've become so adept at communicating by framing and spinning, but so mindless when it comes to personally understanding and digging into the real issues at heart. My answers to your questions would be too humorous to post.. thank you for shedding light on that. And wasn't there something about orphans and widows... ? |
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God is the Judge not man love one another as God loved us God Bless you all Amen |
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| Aren't the folks in California struggling with S777, and trying to be able to teach some traditional values in high school. How did we get to the point that we even had to discuss the idea that we need a amendment to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. |
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Kathy |
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January 04, 2008 at 3:52am |
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Melinda, Carebear, Bestemor and Mstovall, thank you for your supportive responses! It takes courage to stand up against the crowd, even, perhaps especially, when that crowd is claiming to represent Christianity.
Voice, Dennis, mstovall, and Dave, I can appreciate your thoughtfulness. You are so right that this is a complex issue, not a black and white one, and your desire to examine it from all sides is, imo, a sign of your spiritual maturity. Although I presented in this blog only one side, I did so in response to a side we are all familiar with. Had I written this blog to gay people or to gay activists, the blog would read quite differently.
Let's examine a few specific responses: Melinda mentions that there is no hierarchy of sin, meaning if we have sinned we are lost without Jesus' grace. Dennis similarly makes mention of his own sin. I suspect we are all in agreement here, at least in words. But does that translate into our personal beliefs on the homosexual issue, or do we automatically fall into a different set of memorized responses? If we truly believe that there is no hierarchy of sin, and that we have all sinned, then why do we continue to place all homosexual people outside of Christianity. Are we "other sinners" outside Christianity? If homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive, are not also lying and Christianity, and lustful thoughts and Christianity mutually exclusive? Is it reasonable that Christians have made homosexuality the unpardonable sin? Google "gay" and "Christian" together, and see what comes up.
Voice, I always enjoy our discussions, as I have the greatest respect for your opinions, whether they are exactly like mine or not. I appreciate and understand your personal questions, and you are right that we agree on how to treat homosexuals. You said "I have known some individuals who were evil and lurking to find "young flesh". I also have known individuals who have happily left the lifestyle as well as some who continue in it happily." I suspect we both have known some heterosexuals that fit all these categories as well, haven't we? Surely, promiscuity, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is outside of God's plan for us, but homosexuality doesn't exclusively own promiscuity, and not all homosexuals are promiscuous.
Dave mentioned the need to "draw the line" somewhere. We have all used that term, and I am not arguing against the statement. However, let's examine it for a second. We know that God draws lines. That's a given. As Rimosmob reminded us, we will each stand alone before Him for judgment, and He will have lines. But when we "draw the line," what does that look like? Do we draw lines that exclude people from God's grace? That exclude them from our churches? That build hierarchies of which sins are greater than others? (I do believe some sins are greater than others, btw, as long as we are living here on earth, although from God's perspective any sin equally separates us from Him.) My questions here are not specifically to Dave, but to anyone who can respond. What does it look like when we "draw the line"?
Mrs. Annette, I cannot tell from your comment what your position is on this issue, but your comment is very well stated: "God, Help us all!" Regardless of our convictions on any issue, ALL of us are in equal need of God's mercy, loving kindness, and grace!
Thank you all for such a respectful discussion. |
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Kathy, if I may...some additional thoughts on a cold Maryland morning...
I agree with you that the homosexual community does not "own" promiscuity. God knows, and we should, too, that, as a society, we are very promiscuous. On the other hand, I do believe that as a society we have forced the homosexual community into a place where promiscuity flourishes. Let's face it, if we had no ability to marry as heterosexuals, what incentive would there be for us not to be promiscuous? I hope this makes sense. The point I am trying to make here is that sexuality, as God intended it, is far from what we practice today - any of us. We practice sexuality in a fallen world and every now and then we get a glimpse of what God intended. To state it another way, if we have such a hard time keeping commitments (let your yea be yea), honoring our parents, fleeing from idolatry, communicating properly, coveting the latest electronic gadget, etc, etc, what makes us think that we have sexuality down properly?
Don't get me wrong...I am not looking for excuses for sin here. I am merely pointing out that we live in a fallen world, and we have developed a set of mores that are based on our incomplete understanding (seeing through the glass dimly). We find our own comfort zone and fight it when people try to push us out. BTW, that "we" is all of us - homosexual and heterosexual.
Final thought...we need to draw a line...ummmm, not sure I can agree with that. I think Jesus drew the line in the dirt and said that whoever among us is without sin can throw the first stone. I stand behind the line already drawn. |
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Glenn |
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January 04, 2008 at 6:27am |
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Kathy you are so good at finding difficult topics to discuss. Thanks for bring them to this form.
As to using this single issue to determine a political choice, that seems a little preposterous to me. There are for more important issues to examine than homosexual unions when it comes to governing our country as you have well said above.
I have struggled with this topic for some time, having a sibling who lived the lifestyle and died of AIDS in 1994. I like Melinda above learned that a sin is a sin in God's eyes and none is more or less offensive to God. I also agree that we within the "Church" tend to draw lines that God may not draw. It is human nature to draw those lines. I guess the old "Love the sinner hate the sin" response comes in at this point, but what does loving the sinner look like? Do we force them into some mold that they are not comfortable in? Do we confront their lifestyle on a regular basis? What exactly is our responsibility towards confronting sin in our brother or sister? We are all guilty of sin, but we are not responsible to convict anyone of their sin, that is the job of the Holy Spirit, so I suggest that we love each other and give grace to one another as Jesus loves us.
I work with many homosexual folks in my current employment and find many of them serve the children of Buffalo far more compassionately than most of the churches in my community. Sometimes our fear or revulsion of what we believe others might do clouds our judgment and allows us to believe they are not truly human or possibly subhuman. If we can look past lifestyle and see God's grace for another person and love them with His grace, that will allow us to serve people around us in a more effective manor.
I have learned that God's love covers a multitude of sins, including mine!
peace |
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Kathy,
I would say no, of course homosexuality isn't (or shouldn't be) the main issue in the national election. Is anyone else claiming it is?
I noticed that the web address for the organization you highlighted is http://www.savecalifornia.com/index.php, so I suspect they are focusing on issues of particular interest to their state (California). Maybe that issue is of particular concern to them, whereas it is far less of an issue elsewhere in the country. We also know that both of the major parties use emotionally incendiary language to mobilize their voter base. None of this phases me, as it doesn't seem to be a problem in our neck o' the woods. BTW, I too am registered as an independent. Maybe we think alike politically? |
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Helen |
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January 04, 2008 at 7:29am |
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Thanks for sharing. Everyone had great responses. True Christians who seek after God righteousness can't help but love all souls. The love of God is part of the "true" Christian experience who is sensitive to the Holy Spirit. If this has to be explained, then those who don't understand may be in need of a true born-again experience or need restoration to their spiritual life. A true Christian realizes that it is not about "me" anymore but about Christ.
Most eastern religions in our country win many people over just because of demonstrating "love" and acceptance to all. Can you imagine what would happen if "Christian" churches received all sinners showing God's love, regardless of sexual orientation, social status, ethnicticity, or politics? I am not saying we should compromise the word but rather be patient and in showing how real love looks like! It looks merciful, thankful, not looking down on others but seeking to connect with their soul through the Holy Spirit and willing to spend time seeking the word together in hopes they are led to Christ. The bottom line is that the people we see are someone's mother, brother, sister, father.... Let's love as if they were our family. God loves so much that he is a God of justice. If they are not reached, we know the sinner's consequence!
I know many who are homosexual, including family. Those that I know happen to be wonderful people. But the reality is, like any sin, there is a spirit of bondage. Yes, I am concerned if homosexuals become parents of foster children, simply because of what they model to children. The word of God points out that this sin is the result of our people rejecting God to the point that it opened the door to a perverse spirit, This perveserve spirit spread more and more, eventually leading many to a reprobate mind.
This is serious! We are to love all with God's righteousness unto salvation. Our love should be for God first and foremost in order to share to others. We should not compromise. Our children need someone to protect them from this spirit of deception. Although the laws will never ban gays from fostering, this is my personal concern being exposed to deception without a biblical standard. Home is where truth and safety should be.
If we make people angry because of our stand, that is going to happen anyway...no matter how kind and loving we may be. God's standard should be displayed, even if it offends. Why aren't the Christians rising up to what the world does and say? We need to make it clear that God is able to deliver anyone under bondage to any sin.
I also don't think we need laws to protect homosexuals because they are citizens. We should have citizens laws. The definition of marriage should not change, rather, change the word for those of the same sex who unite legally. What are we telling our children who are our future when we allow special laws for gays. What message will transcend? The next generation is being taught morals and biblical values less and less. Even "christians" are marrying and divorcing at an astronomical rate, affecting and infecting the home! There is so much compromise in the churches today that many are not being taught and therefore, much decay. Who is going to be accountable?? Am I my brother's keeper? Why aren't people humbling themselves, repenting, and praying? The answer will never be in our government but in God, first! |
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Gene |
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January 04, 2008 at 7:54am |
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Kathy,
I'm sorry for jumping in late. Apparently all the really good ideas have already been taken said. It would indeed be sad if we allow a single issue to define an election. Unfortunately, there are those who not only do that but solicit their views as the only "righteous" one.
The overarching thread in the comments above is that Christ's love shoudl be our first and foremost thought. I fully agree. We need to take that same attitude when we view the political candidates and the ballot issues. If we are to be the light of the World, we must shine in every corner on all issues - not on one item only. |
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Kathy, great blog !
Helen, great question ! 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
National issues are one thing. Eternal issues another ! |
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Excellent point Kathy. I have to wonder why so many Christians consider it their job to conform the world to Christ's image. When I was deluded enough to do this, I was only trying to force people around me to conform to my distorted view of what I thought Christ's image was (which I found out was totally off base - thanks Jesus). I wrote this song because of this sort of issue. Let me know if you would rather I not post it, and I can repost my above statement. We Could
Could we change the World we live in,
Through politic means?
Have every vote be Church approved,
And live corruption free.
Can’t you see?
Oh can’t you see?
Could we change how people live,
Enforce morality?
Make every thought and word and deed,
Match our propriety?
Can’t you see?
Oh can’t you see?
Chorus:
Our God is great, He's got a plan, to bring His love to every one.
The kind of love that changes you, that sets the captives free.
God please take this heart of mine, fill it with Your love divine.
Use this broken heart to share Your love to all I see.
Could we change our Church’s culture
To what it “should” be?
Ev’ry word, in proper style,
Sung so righteously!
Can’t you see?
Oh can’t you see?
Chorus
Could we just let our God heal us,
Truly set us free?
We’d show His love to ev’ryone
As Christ meant it to be!
Can you see?
Oh can you see?
Chorus
Copyright Jess Stuart 2007 |
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Kathy |
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January 04, 2008 at 12:18pm |
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Glenn, I am so sorry to hear about your sibling. It is unfortunate that for most Christians, it takes such a personal struggle as yours to force us to deal with the tough issues and come out as wise as have become. Answers are so easy when they are just words, but when the issues become someone we love, we realize the black and white answers are lacking. A hug for your loss and your grace.
Mike, you are right that this organization is probably primarily concerned about CA. I was not familiar with the organization and did not research it before posting this, other than to do a quick google and scan some of headlines. I think maybe this group was instrumental in stopping gay marriage in CA. They seem to be a conservative "family" watchdog kind of organization. If anyone knows more, or can correct me, please do! So you're an Independent! Can Independents vote in the primary in MD? We can in NC, but someone told me that's not the case in all states.
Helen, you said a lot! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this issue. You bring up some good points. I appreciate that your main concern in adoption is adoption is for the children's well-being, and I would also agree that given everything else equal, I would rather place a child with a mother and father than with a homosexual parent, but for a different reason. My concern is that the child will have to deal with insensitive teasing from closed-minded people like some of us. However, that said, many kids have to deal with teasing for a variety of reasons, and most survive it if they are surrounded by people who love them. I would question the morality issue, not that I think it unimportant, but that I believe it to be based on stereotype. I too would hate to see a child placed in a home where a parent, homosexual or heterosexual was going to live promiscuously. I wonder though, how many gay people who are trying to adopt are living simple settled lives like us - going to work, volunteering in the community, wanting to invest in children who need love. As for the "laws to protect homosexuals", do you have a specific law in mind? I agree that our laws chould protect everyone equally, although I see no harm in specifying, for example, that a certain organization will not discriminate based on gender, race, sexual preference, etc. These thoughts are not directed specifically to Helen. They are just thoughts that her well presented comments provoked in me! Thanks, Helen!
Gene, it is never late to hear from you! Your wisdom is much appreciated! :)
Paul said" "National issues are one thing. Eternal issues another !" I agree, Paul. They are different. I'm not sure exactly how you are applying it, and would welcome more of your thoughts.
Jess, the song is great, and I gave it a star! Thanks!
Voice said: "I do believe that as a society we have forced the homosexual community into a place where promiscuity flourishes. Let's face it, if we had no ability to marry as heterosexuals, what incentive would there be for us not to be promiscuous? I hope this makes sense. The point I am trying to make here is that sexuality, as God intended it, is far from what we practice today - any of us." Preach on, Voice! :) |
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Deb |
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January 04, 2008 at 12:22pm |
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| Great blog Kathy, and Amen! |
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Great Blog all I can say AMEN to you and GOD BLESS YOU! |
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Hello Kathy,
Wow!! I have struggled with "what to do" about this issue concerning my friends. I cannot hate them...or judge them. I am NO better than them. I, thankfully, happen to be Forgiven and Saved. God draws us all. If I reject my friends who live this lifestyle...then who will show them love? Who will show them that someone cares and is there for them? I learned that one cannot pound the message of Jesus Christ into a lost soul! It just turns people away. It is just so artificial! John 6:44 says that the father draws us! Salvation is this miraculous gift that we cannot attain on our own! Building relationships with people...no matter who they are...will portray compassion, and caring. People are really looking for someone who cares, someone to trust. It's getting so rare in the world these days.
My homosexual friend, M., picked up a necklace that I wear around my neck. he turned it over and read it. There is a dove on the front. The verse on the back reads: "By this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit He has given us." John 3:24, I believe. Now, I have known this young man for around five years. He is like one of my kids. He read this verse and looked at me kind of puzzled. (I have been praying for him. He is a special person that I know God loves too.) I told him that the necklace and the verse was very special to me. This is only a start. I did not attack him his lifestyle sins! He knows what I believe but he also knows that I care about him and that I will not reject him.
I am rambling...but when will people understand that people are looking for someone they can trust, and for someone to stick it out with them...no matter how bad or how ugly it gets!!!! This is what Jesus did for me. I did not deserve it either!
Cathy is... Forgiven! |
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Grant |
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January 04, 2008 at 11:40pm |
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Good one Kath! If a poofdah wants to save the planet from extinction and every right wing legalistic Christian out there is running for office, but doesn't give a hoot for the poor, a dying planet, or any other REAL issues out there, I'm voting for the sinner. OT Israel rarely criticized for their sexual sins, but quite often for their treatment of widows and the poor.
BTW. Do you know what they call Q3 in poker? A San Francisco bus boy - a queen with a trey - LOL. |
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| Kathy, To answer your question---------- I don't think we should elect anyone because of their stand on any one issue. Changed lifestyles are the result of changed hearts. Only God can change the heart. |
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Kathy |
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January 05, 2008 at 7:09am |
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lol Grant! That reminds me of Spain's name for black beans and rice. They call them "Moors and Christians" (because the Spanish Christians were historically white and the Moorish invasion of 711AD came from Africa). Makes for a strange menu item!
I agree with you 100%! I too would vote for a non-Christian president over a Christian who is inexperienced to handle world affairs. Being Christian doesn't automatically qualify any of us to be president of the United States. Those who vote for such a high office based on any one "pet issue" are playing dangerously, and unfortunately Christians often fall into that category, as we tend to blindly travel in a large herd. And your point about OT sins is so true!
Cathy, I love your caring heart! You made some great statements that I want to reiterate: "Building relationships with people...no matter who they are...will portray compassion, and caring. People are really looking for someone who cares, someone to trust." and "when will people understand that people are looking for someone they can trust, and for someone to stick it out with them...no matter how bad or how ugly it gets!!!! This is what Jesus did for me. I did not deserve it either!" Amen, Cathy! You are a caring friend!
Thank you, Deb and Doyle for your kindness! I love to see you both!
Something to ponder: Are the terms "homosexual" and "lost soul" interchangeable? To expand on Voice's point, we as a society (especially Christians) have driven the gay people out of the church. Yet we want to "pray for their salvation." Does anyone else see a disconnect here? There are certainly many homosexual people who are unsaved, probably (I'm just guessing here) a larger percentage than the unsaved among heterosexuals, due to being unwelcome in our churches. There are, however, many homosexual people who are Christian. Imperfect, yes, as are all of us.
Another question about which I'd be interested to hear your thoughts: We mimic the term "homosexual lifestyle" and hear it often in Christian circles. What exactly is that? Is every homosexual not as unique an individual as every heterosexual? Do all heterosexuals share a "lifestyle"? Just as there are many heterosexual people who live promiscuous lives, there are many homosexual people who live monogamous, and even celibate, lives. Perhaps it's a shame we call each other homoSEXuals and heteroSEXuals, because this capitalizes on something that may not even be there. If a nun lives her entire life celibately, can she still be labeled a heterosexual? Yes, because natural attraction is not about sexual experience. We can choose to be monogamous, promiscuous, or celibate, but despite the choice, we cannot control that we are drawn to (the opposite) gender. Perhaps sex is not the real issue? |
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Kathy |
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January 05, 2008 at 7:11am |
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| Amen, Paul! |
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Ok Kathy,
Here's where I start to differ in my perspective. "we cannot control that we are drawn to (the opposite) gender. " I am not able to buy into gender preference as a non choice. I cannot see that this is an issue of how we're wired. If so, then what's the difference between DNA linkage and perversion, are there then no lines anywhere? Do we then throw away our perspective on holiness for one specific group? I am so strongly opposed to nature instead of person and this area can easliy slide into that perspective. I myself come from a family with very strong addictive tendancies, almost everyone has minor variations on OCD and ADHD, yet almost none of us give in to those tendancies. Sin, and I do believe homosexuality is sin, is still sin, I may give room for people to recover and/or struggle with their sin, but there does reach a point where that sinner needs to be turned over to God, and the two of them get to work it out. Regardless of how nicely we want to sugar coat the issue, a large number of families with "gender issue" create those same issues in their children, and yes I know similar issues exist in the straight community, I don;t condone them their either. Also, lest you think these are issues I am unaware of, I've struggled with many of the potentials of these lifestyles. I was abused as a young man and it clouds my thinking, even today. Please also don't want you to stop being kind or loving to homosexuals, it just turns out to be such a difficult are to understand how to love. We need to encourage people to struggle against their sin, but in this area, the struggle strikes into the core of our person, this is an area of sin where the sin is so strongly against the person. Well any way, probably should move on.... |
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Kathy, I have real concerns about the election (s) coming up. I have concerns about the direction our nation is headed. But, my greatest concern is more in the eternal realm. My heart cries for all those caught up in things God calls sinful. We are to help the orphans, widows, etc. with physical and emotional needs. But I am also reminded from time to time about the scripture.... 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
we all hope to escape this "perishing" Jesus spoke of. Amen?? |
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Dear Kathy, I live in California and I'm not familiar with this group. They don't talk like any church I know. It's a big state, of course. Thank you very much for this blog. This morning I was listening to NPR and heard an editorial about how much progress the US has made in the area of tolerance. For example, 50 years ago it would be unthinkable to vote for a black candidate, a woman candidate or even an Italian-American. Jews and Catholics also were pretty thoroughly left out of the process. I hope this web site can be a place to build tolerance and understanding. |
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Is it me, or do are a lot of believers known by what they stand against, instead of what they stand for?
I just want to stand for Jesus, and His sacrifice for all of us.
1 Corinthians 2:2 (Amplified Bible)
For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified. |
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Off topic slightly from the original issue (homosexuality as a key issue in a national election), but you asked, Kathy. "Are the terms "homosexual" and "lost soul" interchangeable?" Certainly not, and I'm sure 99% here would agree. But my sense is, most homosexual people voluntarily continue to engage in a certain behavior that the Bible uses strong words against. This behavior repulses many people. So in order to avoid the strange looks, or to be around others who condone/accept/embrace this behavior, many openly homosexual people either bypass churches altogether or go to churches that accept the behavior as ok.
I do not see all homosexual people as victims. They are often portrayed in the media as such, but they are not. There is an organized effort to redefine "normal" sexual behavior in the US right now, and the victim portrayal seems to be part of the strategy.
Recently some friends of mine invited a homosexual man to their men's Bible study, in an effort to reach out. On his third visit the homosexual man brought a "friend", and the two behaved very affectionately towards one another at the meeting -- holding hands, running hands through each other's hair, leaning on ea other, hand on the other's thigh, etc. After the meeting, they were told that although they are welcome to continue coming, they must refrain from that sort of behavior. Was this the proper course of action? I think so, but most homosexual people would probably say they were treated unfairly. What do you think?
Add one more complicating factor. The host of the Bible study has two young children. Does he have a right to shape what his children learn as "normal" sexual behavior/roles?
This comment has gotten very long already, so I won't go into my own efforts to befriend our homosexual neighbors as people who are loved by their Creator. If confronted, I will gently and lovingly stand for holiness, a different standard of behavior than what the world sees as acceptable. But God doesn't seek to change the behavior before he changes the person either. |
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Gene |
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January 05, 2008 at 11:55am |
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I agree with you Mike on this issue and we could probably spend much more time on it. BUT, to answer your question.
Yes, the host was right to make this comment. I would consider it bad behavior to allow ANY couples to engage in that sort of behavior in a Bible study, especially where there are children. It isn't wrong to support an attitude of proper behavior. |
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JessIAm |
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January 05, 2008 at 12:29pm |
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Howdy Mike, about the Bible study situation: if I was running a co-ed Bible study, and a couple was petting each other, I'd ask them to refrain.
Everyone is responsible for the affect their behavior has on others (within reason of course). Concerning this couple: if they are coming to a Bible study, expecting them to respect the sensitivities of the people who are there isn't out of line at all. Frankly, I'm not sure the other men at the study were treated fairly by this couple.
I'm not a father, but my Dad was. The question isn't about rights, but about responsibilities. I think it's a father's responsibility to provide an environment conducive to the development of the child. What that environment looks like is the father's decision. He only answers to God for that decision. |
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Kathy |
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January 05, 2008 at 5:53pm |
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Dennis, your story broke my heart. I mentioned before that I believe in a hierarchy of sin on earth. From salvation's perspective, any sin separates us from God. Thus, in that way, all sin is equal. For life on this earth, however, there are levels of sin, and imo there is none greater than that of molesting a child. I am crying as I type this, both in grief and in an anger that any human being could do such a thing! Dennis, child abuse is worse than perverse, and it is neither a symptom of homosexuality nor heterosexuality, although sadly we hear of it in both camps. Behavior is always a choice. Some other time I would deal with the nature vs. nurture question, but at the moment it seems so very unimportant. Please accept a hug instead.
Paul, how do you perceive that God wants you to respond to this concern on your heart?
June said "I hope this web site can be a place to build tolerance and understanding. " Amen, June! The culture of a nation is slow to change, and the Christian culture even slower, but when we look at 50 years of history at a time, we can see progress. My denomination just recently apologized for the role it played in slavery, and about 18 years ago I witnessed a gun pulled on a black friend on the steps of a white church. Slavery is accepted in the Bible, but we know today that it is abominable. Will our children be apologizing to gay people for our attitudes?
Jess, I think many nonbelievers see us that way. Maybe that's what they most often hear from us. A list of don'ts. The Gospel message is a Person, not a list, and if we introduce others to the Person, we can leave the conviction and identification of everyone else's sin to the Almighty God who can handle it much better than we can. If I listen to His convictions of my own sin, I have plenty to work on!
Mike said "in order to avoid the strange looks, or to be around others who condone/accept/embrace this behavior, many openly homosexual people either bypass churches altogether or go to churches that accept the behavior as ok." Mike, I agree that most homosexual people are bypassing the church. However, I think the reason is that the church does not welcome them. For this reason a small percentage of them do attend their own churches. Having never been inside one of these churches, I cannot make any judgments about them, but I can understand their need to worship corporately, as I have the same need.
I agree with Gene and Jess about the Bible Study incident. Whether 2 men or a man and a woman, adults shouldn't behave that way in a Bible Study group where others can be offended. At the very least, these 2 gay men were a large distraction to any attempt at discussing the Bible that evening!
A funny thought concerning homosexuality "repulsing" people. I wonder why it is that we have to imagine what 2 gay people do intimately. Do we imagine what our co-workers do? Our siblings? I know I don't! I heard someone say once that if the "icky" factor was what we should base our laws on, there would be a law against any parents having sex, because all of us think the thought of our parents having sex is "icky"! |
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