Once we are believers, then we are called as 'saints' 

Rom 1:7  To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul dealt with 'sinners' positively. Similarly we need to take note of that. Once we become a believer our tendency should go towards becoming a saint and not remain as a sinner. By obedience this will be a reality. We should not remain a sinner and call ourselves a saint.

Jess, great blog.  You are clear here and I think you have been clear in other blogs as well. 

I like what Paul says in Romans 6 that we are dead to sin which means it doesn't own us anymore. 

When people say they are sinners saved by Grace, I think people are trying to say that it was not works but grace as in Eph 2:8,9. You point out that we should state we are saved by grace rather than saying we are a sinner.  The sin was bought and paid for and is no longer how we are identified.

So positionally, God views us as perfect/sinless with Jesus' shed blood making us clean.  Practically on a daily basis, we need to choose to take up our cross and die to ourselves as we deal with temptation every day. 

I have been guilty of saying I am a sinner before and I thank you for the reminder that this is incorrect.  Have a great week! 

Thanks All!

Thanks Paul.  I'm trying to understand.  I don't see the difference between my viewpoint and yours.  Are we agreeing and don't know it?

Thanks Suzanne.  I agree with Abbas_Daughter's comment, too.

Thanks Brent.  I'm glad to know I clear to someone =D  I think you are right about why many people say they are sinners saved by grace.  For me, I only saw myself as a "SINNER saved by grace", if that makes sense.

Thanks Golden2100.  I don't see Paul using the term saint that way.  I his letters, he writes to the saints at such and such a church, referring to all believers.  I realize not all denominations define saint the same way.  Let's just agree to disagree on this.

Thanks Gene.  I totally agree.  I hope my original blog post showed that.  A friend of mine went to a Baptist university in Oregon.  During their history classes onthe Reformation, he or one of his friends shouted out "Atta Boy, Luther!"  I guess I join that chorus too.

Thanks SeekerSA.  I also agree to that.  Since I'm posting this to clarify myself, I'd appreciate your help.  Did my original post seem to say something different?

Thanks Brad.  I totally agree.  For me, the proof of the identity stuff above, is that we can approach God's throne boldly.  Adam and Eve were the first people to feel shame, and it made them run from God.  He sees us through Jesus (I'll never wrap my mind around that, but I can accept it).

Your in ministry so you can keep the change ;) 

Jess wrote, "Are we sinners?  I don't think Paul says that."  I like a challenge ;)  Try 1 Timothy 1:15 on for size ;)

Jess wrote, "Do I define myself by my weaknesses? I can't find an example where Paul does this."  Another challenge!  Try Romans 7:14 -- "I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."  Gal 2:17 is a bit of a stretch.  1 Tim 1:16 might be better.  Nevertheless, I think your statement holds.  I thought a bit on this one.  I have a suggestion that might not be right:  The people Paul spoke to understood was sin was.  The people we speak to today do not know what sin is, so require some "pre-evangelism," and me calling myself a sinner, describing my old life, and what I've been saved from might be a good thing to do in this generation.

Also, confessing current sins is a way of "keepin' it real."  We're not Jesus.  We still screw up (Rom 6-7 as many pointed out).  But ultimately, I agree with Gene, our identity is in Jesus.  On the third hand...that's just the end of the story.  What about the beginning?  Heh, I dunno what to say, Jess!  Good comments all around here.

Gary R. Thomas, you describe the "seven deadly sins" well, but they are more than what you've said.  In Catholic tradition, these sins can cause you to lose your salvation.  The "deadly" refers to spiritual death.

Howdy Eric!  Thanks for the challenge =D

 I hope it comes across that I agree with Gene.  I mean to go into a bit more detail about why I identify with Jesus.  My walk with Christ included a time when I did not.

BTW, I typed all of this before I realized you were agreeing with me.  I decided to post it anyway because I don't want my fingers to ache for no reason:

I'm going to put these scriptures first and then discuss them:

1 Tim 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

1 Tim 1:12-17
12  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
13  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;
14  and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.
15  It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16  Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
17  Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

I realize Paul admits to being the world's greatest sinner in this passage.  Look at verse 13, though.  He says he was "formerly a blasphemer....".  This is all from a book that starts "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...".
While Paul admits to being the world's greatest sinner, he doesn't seem to be defining his self concept as that.  He doesn't introduce himself as "Paul, the world biggest sinner...".
I see more of my sin than I see in anyone else.  By God's grace, I'm honest enough to admit to being the biggest sinner I know.  I see myself as Christ's beloved brother.

Thanks Don,

I am, in this life, not absolutely holy.

From what it says in Col 1:21-23, I'd put this as "Christs death has made me holy in God's sight.  God and I are working on my actions to make them holy, too."

Col 1:21-23
21  And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22  yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23  if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Thanks Jen.

Thanks Other Gene!

I love these two points you make: 

I've never been able to explain why this idea of identity is so important to me, until I read your statements.  For me, I saw myself as a washed out Christian, who was always going struggle with sin.   Then I realized the Bible says my identity is in Jesus, and what He did for me.  I realized God could change my behavior, since He changed who I was when I accepted Him.

I think you are right.  The Church has lost the notion that we are utterly dependant on Jesus for everything.  Jesus gave that parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.  I didn't improve in my life until I realized I have nothing to bring to the table, other than someone for God to fix.

Thanks Gene,

That's a lot of my point, but not all of it.  It also comes down to this - the way I think about myself leads to my expectations for God and myself.  Here's a Biblical example from King Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4 - If I think I'm a cow, and graze like a cow, that's all I will ever act like.

When I see myself as a sinner, that's all I'll ever aspire to.  When I see myself as a redeemed follower of Jesus, I'll have a better goal, which I know I can reach, because the Jesus who redeemed me in the first place will also work in me to bring about a redeemed lifestyle.

THAT is the great paradox of Christianity - saint and sinner, at the same time.  Christian life is full of those paradoxes. 

I agree with you Jess.  My only point is to be cautious in that the temptation is to then move over to the other extreme of being happy all the time without responsibility.  I know you don't think that (you can tell by reading your blogs) but I wanted to make the point for anyone who may just be dropping in on the conversation.

Thanks Mark Scott,

Someone else had pointed out that scripture earlier in the blog.  I wrote a response to it.  I invite your comments on my response.

Paul had just given a list of the things that qualified him as a sinner:

Paul said that he did these things and God saved him from them (verse 15).  That means he doesn't do them anymore.  He does not blaspheme, persecute, or injure anymore.  Since he does not engage in those things, it would be difficult to call him a blasphemer, persecutor, or injurious.  Paul was not calling himself a "present sinner" but a "past sinner" who was saved from those things.

If you know anything about Paul's theology, you would know that he considered the Law the power of sin (see 1 Cor. 15:56 - "...the strength of sin is the Law")  The gospel according to Paul says we are not under law because we are righteous.  Those who are under law are not righteous.  This is evident earlier in First Timothy when Paul wrote:

If Paul were calling himself a present sinner in 1 Tim. 1:15, we could assume that he believed he was under law.  If that were the case, we could throw away the books of Romans and Galatians (if not more).

Jess is correct: we are not sinners.  The reality that Paul teaches is that in Jesus, we are righteous, holy, sanctified, redeemed, etc.  When we sell out to that reality, we have the power to walk it out.  But we cannot be double-minded about this stuff.

If you're wavering between the belief that you're a saint who is a sinner, you cannot receive anything from God.  Such wavering is what the bible calls "double-mindedness".  It's better known as doubt or unbelief.

Gene the Christian life is not "full of those paradoxes" as long as the Christian believes what God says about him.  Such "paradox" comes from doubting that, in Christ, you are righteous.  If Jesus is the source of my righteousness then I can be "happy all the time without responsibility" of making myself righteous.

Rob

Christ IS our life not just a part or even a big part of our lives.  He is our life and in Him is no sin.

These scriptures are God's reality.  We don't score any points when we disagree with Him.

Also, Jesus told us that we will have whatever we say (see Mark 11:23).  Constantly repeating the mantra, "I'm supposed to struggle against personal sin", is a self-fulfilling (and self-defeating) prophesy.  On the other hand, if we agree with God - that we are free from sin - then that becomes our reality.  You have what you say and you receive everything you believe - for better or for worse.

This is how the Kingdom of God works.  Blessings and curses arise out of whichever we believe to be our reality.  The bible says that Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13).  But 30-years ago, nobody taught me that (because they didn't know it themselves).  Therefore, I missed out on a huge part of what Jesus came to do.  What we don't know can hurt us.

Insisting on our own opinion over the opinion of God is called rebellion and it's frowned upon in the scriptures.  Stop struggling with sin and start believing God - or as Paul put it:

Notice he did not say, "stop sinning and awake to righteousness".  It's very easy to get the cart before the horse in this thing.  We have to, first, understand that, in Christ, we are righteous and that is precisely how we can successfully stop sinning.  When we "awake to righteousness" our view and opinion lines up with the view and opinion of God (i.e we have the same knowledge that God has about us.  This is "the knowledge of God" referred to in the above text).  Some have not the knowledge that, in Christ they are righteous, therefore they are asleep to God's righteousness.

When we awake to who God says we are then we can live the kind of lives we always wanted to live and we never again have to struggle against personal sin.  This is what makes Paul's message so unique in the Christian world.  Almost no one believes it can be that simple.  We'd rather believe that God wants us to struggle, strive, and strain to keep from being consumed by our lusts.  Indeed, we'd rather believe the promises of our preacher than the clear promises of God.

Rob

Howdy Rob,

Here's what I base my statement on: In Romans 8:13 (AMP) it says:

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.

Notice it says "putting to death".  We will struggle with sinful habits in our lives as Christians.  I don't think we should identify with them, but we will struggle with them.

I have to disagree with you on this one:
"This concept that "life is hard" and "we have sin in our lives" is not of God but of the devil.  If I have sin in my life then Jesus does too because... "

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

When it comes to adversity and struggling in our lives, I think Jesus and James both have good things to say:
Jesus:
John 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

James 1:2-3
2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

It seems to me Jesus and James both refer to difficulties in life, and that they are part of God's plan to help us grow.

Just a Note:
My goal in blogging is to get people to connect with Jesus in a deeper way, and to entrust their issues to Him so He can heal them.  I invite you to discuss the topics I bring up, and I think we can have a fruitful discussion.  Please keep your reponses oriented to what God is teaching you (not what God should be teaching other people).

And again:

If John were telling his audience that they should live their lives with an expectation to sin, then he certainly would not have given them the recipe for living a sin free life, would he???

John's theology called it being "born of God".  The apostle Paul called it "walking in the Spirit".

Both of these apostles had the formula for victory.  One called it being "born of God", the other "walking in the Spirit".  Here's another interesting statement from a person who allegedly thinks he's going to sin all the time:

If John were convinced that he had to sin all the time then the syntax of 1 John 2:1 is all wrong.  I asked a preacher what he thought that meant, one time, and he said, "It says 'if' but it means 'when'".  I have yet to find a reliable version of the bible that translates that word "when".  John said "if any man sin...".

Keeping my response oriented to what God has taught me is as follwos: After I'd appreciated the gravity of my crime (read "my sin"), I absolutely had to be saved from it.  I could not be merely "forgiven".  In fact, screw forgiveness!  Forgiveness is NOT what I came back to Jesus for.  My focus was not on forgiveness; I needed salvation.

Salvation from sin, to me therefore, means that I don't have to do those things that destroy lives anymore.  I NEED SALVATION FROM SIN!!!  If Jesus cannot save me from my sins then He's a liar and I need to find someone who can.  If all I've got is "virtual salvation" (i.e. forgiveness) then you can cram that junk.  I don't want it.

Here's where I'm at, okay?  You're doing fine with your little Internet porn sin.  Your sin involves yourself and a digital picture.  You have the luxury of defining "salvation" as mere "forgiveness".  Although, in the depths of my sinfulness, I did engage in more than my share of Internet porn, my sin was a little more diverse.  My sin involved a teenage girl from my neighborhood.  To me, salvation HAS to be more than mere forgiveness because I absolutely cannot do that again.  So when the bible says "...he cannot sin because he's born of God" then it's speaking my language.  It's telling me exactly what I want to hear.

We get the things from God that we absolutely need.  We cannot be healed of a physical illness if we can live with it.  We cannot be prosperous if poverty is good enough for us.  We cannot be delivered from evil if evil can be tolerated.

Jesus has the power to break the pattern of sin in our lives but we have to believe it's possible.  Keeping my response personally oriented, I needed salvation from evil behavior.  I could not continue in that mode.  Sexual sin had dogged me all my life.  I could not let God get away with being a "forgiveness only" god.  I had to hold His feet to the fire on this salvation stuff.  That's why He opened my eyes to these truths.

People have tried to talk me out of this theology but I don't know why.  Do they want a convicted sex offender to not be absolutely sold out to victory???  What possible advantage could that give them?

1 John 1:8 means this: If we say we have no sin then we don't need salvation [complete and total victory - not mere forgiveness] from sin.  If we don't need salvation from sin then Jesus is unnecessary.  Obviously, this is a lie.

This interpretation is consistent with the verse that follows (1 John 1:9).  "If we confess our sins (sexual immorality, drunkenness, stealing, etc.) then we are owning our depravity.  We recognize our need for a savior (one who saves to the uttermost) and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness".

In my life, Jesus is the one who keeps me cleansed from all sin - not my own efforts.  All I do is give Him thanks for completely saving me from my sin.

Jesus is the Lamb of God who not only forgives but he also takes away the sin of the world.  That's what I need Jesus for - the "take away" part.  The forgiveness thing is of less importance - at least to me.

Rob