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| Can Christians Argue |
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I am amazed at how well we act as family when we are all on equal sides...but that family bond should not be broken by dissagreement. If we say we are family, should we not be able to passionately dissagree, state our discourse, and even reprove? Even in our bodies, growth is only made possible by death. Cells die for more cells to grow. In our church body, the same must happen...sometimes people need conflict to grow. Should we then accuse eachother or be surprised when a passionate discourse occurs? |
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| I don't have any brothers or sisters. I do, however, have two sons. My heart's desire is for them get along and love one another at all times. Reality is that they LOOK more like brothers when they are fighting! As long as when the bickering is over, there is still love, the bond remains. Always truth...but only in love. |
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| Interesting fact that if we are not allowed to hold bitterness and we recognize that we are not eachother's enemy...then only good can happen. I have got into many fights with the people I love...b/c conflict is unavoidable b/w two people who choose to be around eachother (we all have different opinions) and we are grow closer through it...respect grows. |
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| The Apostle Paul makes this clear with his debate against the church in Jerusalem as Apostle Peter began directing the followers in Jerusalem back into the Old Covenant law. However, debate just for the sake of it is an empty practice, as one should regard his words carefully and speak only when it's beneficial to do so. |
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Sue |
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March 01, 2007 at 11:47am |
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| Thanks for posting this issue. I think discussion is a very good thing. I think if we remain humble and teachable this can be very beneficial. We should definately be able to have mature conversations about the Bible with other believers. I think pride gets in the way sometimes, when people think "if you don't believe what I believe then you are wrong or maybe even going to hell"...give me a break! Hey, there's an idea....why don't we all cut each other some slack and realize that none of us have cornered the truth? Pride is the only thing that would suggest otherwise. I have said this before, when we get to heaven I think we will all be very humbled at how wrong we were on so many issues. |
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| Jonathan, well said. Arguement for argument's sake is...weird...but at times can be fun when in the right environment (friends).
Sue, right on. Of course no one likes to say "hey I am not sure but..."
For all, I think the only way we can truly find the truth is for us to bounce off of eachother in love until we find the center (if we all have the right heart) The fact is, we will not have all the answers until we become one with the writer. |
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R |
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March 01, 2007 at 12:23pm |
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| Hello webyouthpa..,
A timely article, one that begs the question, "do we have the right to enforce, that the argument cease, after many attempts to reconcile?
I for one, believe we do, and had to post this on my own blog this morning (An analogy: What's In Your File? (stop sinning issue).
Sometimes enforcing that the thing stop, is also necessary. I sometimes think the word that could be written over most everything, we do and say, is the word balance.
Robert... |
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| I think so many churches split and Christians allow division to grow in their relationships b/c they don't apply three basic scriptures in their relationships with other believers
1) For we do not wrestle with flesh and blood...
2) For the weapons of our warfare are not of this world
3) Forgive...
If we will apply them, then we never see the person asthe source of the problem so the relationship cannot be damaged through discourse...even heated
If we do not strike out with worldly weapons, or better yet call ourselves down when we realize we have got carried away, then we can show the grace of God alive in our own lives
If we will walk in forgiveness, then we can hold no grudges.
I recognize this is ideal, but my closest friends and i are in conflict regularly about something. It should be seen as a comfort to know that there are people who will stick around and contend with you
2 Positive things occur
1) you prove to the enemy and yourselves that your relationship is not based on feeling and emotion but pure love thus the relationship is strenthened
2) you learn...maybe one side was wrong, maybe both sides, but people will not just change their view...it takes, time, love, patience, and persistance |
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| The blog question is CAN Christians argue? I say, shoot yeah they can! They are some of the best! Maybe the question is SHOULD they argue? I say no..but then like Mike and Robert are asking, who's gonna determine the definitions and boundaries?
I just thought of this..maybe the reason most churches today are structured for mainly one-way (preacher/pulpit to people/pew) communication is cuz Christians CAN argue! That definitely cuts down on arguing. :-P
Is dispute a little milder?
Charlie |
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| Argue, dispute, conflict, disagree...how about Christians will argue
I love my brothers...but we fight like cats and dogs when we have been with eachother for a time...b/c we have different opinions.
Consider this, the family you are born with consists of people who at certain times in your life you would have chosen otherwise...it is the truth but your blood forms an unpenetratable bond (supposed to) that will carry for life.
If you don't like someone, you walk away and never speak to that person again. You don't get huffy and puffy b/c it is not worth you time
The fact that husbands and wives have probably the sharpest conflicts with eachother is actually a compliment of the fact they choose not to walk away...and this is usually overlooked by both sides. But it takes a level of trust to intimitely disagree and not consider other options (walk away).
I think God gives us families to prepare us to operate in His family. His blood is unbreakable...but we have to learn to conflict...it must come |
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| Dissension isn't such a bad thing, is it??? As our pastor has said, unity does not require uniformity.
In my mind, "argument" refers more to the tone, style, etc. than to the actual fact there are differences. ~mike |
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| So if the tone gets bad, is that bad or is it an opportunity to really grow?
Also, remind me if you will of the blog (I commented but cannot remember whose it was) concerning the issue on the sinless Christians. I cannot remember who posted it b/c I forgot to check the box |
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| If the tone gets bad, it is both BAD and an opportunity to grow as well. However, I don't think we need to create our own opportunities to grow, God will certainly supply plenty of those externally!
Blog on sinless perfection (1 of 3):
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/11144/He-will-show-Now-Mike-Cannot-Make-Fun-Of-MeHe-He |
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| yeah, I found it...and I agree. Like I said earlier, if we look for conflict, I think that is weird...and not what God wants.
Regardless of where this goes, let this be understood...nowhere does the Bible say blessed are the troublemakers.
It does say let there be no division among you...nothing here should take away from that. |
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| So what does "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" look like in this context? |
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| We are not speaking on leadership terms, nor from a standpoint of during a congregational setting...but life in general. There are times when any form of difference of opinion must be set aside and those who are responsible to make the decisions must make them for the time at hand...
But then there are times where that is not so...and if you are referring to 1 Pet 5:5...that is speaking subjecting to those in authority...wouldn't you agree that Peter is not saying just blindly follow. I think he is saying what my first paragraph says...times and places. Honestly, I am not sure what scripture you are quoting.
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It closes out Paul's life lessons in Ephesians 5:
1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
It all pretty much applies to this topic but that last verse really stood out to me. |
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| Yes, it does doesn't it...and I should have recongnized that but hey. PastorDan, you seem to always have pretty good solid insight. Would you agree that this scripture could be applied to this subject perfectly by saying that when we "conflict" we subject ourselves to either meeting in the middle, realizing one side is mistaken, or agreeing to disagree, but in all things remember what family we are apart of.
I don't see that scripture as a command that we cannot disagree...instead that in our disagreements we should first remember what we do agree on, and considering the environment we find ourselves in, make the right choices. Jesus prayed that we would have unity but unity doesn't necessarily mean we agree nor that we cannot voice our disagreements.
Most church "splits" I have witnessed have happened b/c it is apparant that many Christians can only stand beside eachother when they are in perfect agreement...but let there come a decision that they are on opposite sides of, they can't stand the sight of heachother. I believe that is what Paul is speaking about. CHoosing to continue the walk together regardless of difference. But Paul himself was involved with quite a few arguments in his day...
I don't ever find scripture contradicting itself...unless we apply an idealogical viewpoint (ie name it claim it). Agree or disagree? |
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| I'll go with your fourth option--we must always remember what family we're a part of.
As to your agree or disagree... I'm not sure how to break it down that simply. Imposing our ideology on God's Word (eisegesis) sure doesn't help. I think it'd help if we always kept in mind that we're dealing with finite language that's trying to help us make sense out of an infinite God. Someone once pointed out that if we really could totally sort him out then he wouldn't be God, would he?
That said, he's the Father and I'm not. I don't get to choose my brothers and, heresy aside, I need to keep in mind that I'm addressing one of my Father's children--in public, no less! |
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| You can address me in public...in a blog, you kind of relinquish your claim for not being challenged publically. Please, continue... |
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| I was stating a principle not avoiding a confrontation! |
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| Then I guess the answer to the original question is...yes. Correct? |
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| Then...what is your answer. From your last response, it would seem that you just stated you would prefer not to answer...it that is not what you are saying...then expound.
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| Actually, I think we should not be surprised and we should not run from those instances but instead look at them from a different perspective: The chance to grow together
Conflict b/w different people will result positively if all parties involved will handle it responsibly. The church should perhaps view conflict as the proof we are growing and our relationships are developing |
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| Hmmm, somehow I think this is what Alice was trying to say in her "Heresy" blog. There must be division (heresy=differing opinions) in order that those approved will be manifested/stand out (amongst the devisive ones). Most keyed in on the word "heresy" and took off. |
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| Heresy = different opinion? I am not trying to go there...I am speaking about a group of Christians who all love the Lord and are in a disagreement. My distress is not concering people who are not right with God or operating in division...I am talking about when a group of believers who are all attempting to follow God's Word come into strict disagreement over a matter...
I think we should be free to shut ourselves in a room and get though it...with the understanding that someone will have to compromise their opinion in order to come into agreement over the matter. A body can only go one direction |
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| Oops this is webyouthpastor (Patrick Hazard) I accidentally entered my wife's mychurch... |
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| WYP,
Sometimes (maybe most?) even if we shut ourselves in a room and tossed the key, we would never "get through it." Before registering for MyChurch I might not have believed that, but this has been an eye opening experience...
~mike |
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| It's a good question, wyp. I don't think it's a matter of "can" Christians argue, but more a matter of they ARE going to argue!
I can't count the amount of Christians I have argued with over the years, but something very cool is emerging from that, one thing is that the truth can emerge from it, but more importantly, love for each other can also emerge. I don't think that the arguing itself is pleasing to the Lord, nor will we always get our doctrine right, but if love and relationship emerges, I think that God is very pleased with this. As in Romans 8:28, All things work for good.......
One a bond of love has been established between brothers/sisters, then one is more inclined to have love at the foundation of their discussion, then, much more can be achieved.
Cam. |
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| If folks can't handle a dispute (or an argument) wouldn't it be fair to say that they don't so much have a relationship as they do a truce? |
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| Well, Dan
I think, both, if it is handled correctly. Christians may agree on more that they disagree on, but if love enters the equation, then people, through humility can receive correction or visa versa.
The problem is, when people take things too personally and walk away, just blowing the other party off. We've seen plenty of that! Arguments can also become carnal, which is not good.
However, just some thoughts
We could always argue it out, Dan! Ha!
Cam. |
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| Hey Cam...the idea was more along the lines of "Hey, Christians can argue...and will...get ready...let peace guide your tongue and heart and realize that it is what must happen when people who are different walk the same path..
Dan, do you get those sayings from a book...that was excellent. I think many people w/in the walls of the church are actually in a truce that is so fragile that simple things...stupid things cause the eruption. This goes back to another blog from Charlie about the idea that the fellowship of Christians has been reduced to coffee before service on Sunday morning...
As a DS in the army it was amazing to see how quickly soldiers from different areas of the country who new nothing about eachother just became best friends (seemingly) as a coping method to the new environment they found themselves...but it was only a matter of time before they were fighting over stuff like how one puts too much toothpaste on or the method one lays out his clothes before putting them away...seriously some of the pettiest stuff one can imagine...and why? Dan you said it well: a truce. They knew nothing of eachother...nothing...yet got along b/c it was the thing to do. Grudges were held silently for the case of "getting along" then the explosions began when relationships were actually beginning to get formed. It is something we prepare for in the military...
The same thing is what I fear happens in the church...even here on mychurch. I have had people friend me then pull it b/c I disagree with them and go a couple rounds...so I disagree? If you are willing to respond to me (even in disagreement) I see a person who is interested...not someone who hates me...maybe it's just me. Someone once said that even getting mad at God is an act of faith b/c you can't get mad at something you don't believe in... |
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Although you're right, Cameron, WYP gets what I meant--folks living with no true sense of relationahip just a tacit agreement to "not go there." I've lived under the same circumstances and witnessed the same dynamics. The thing is that in the military, frequently those explosions actually serve to break down the barriers between our folks. In the Church, we're all taught to be "nice", which means that stuff gets bottled up with no outlet while it grows into a festering grudge. Well, no outlet except to become a serial church-hopper, or a vicious gossip, or backbiter...
(And to answer WYP's question, this stuff just pops into my head--and then I do a lot of filtering!)
Back on topic... One of the biggest obstacles I encounter in "reasoned debate" is our unwillingness to ask one another, "What do you mean by that term?" We have some extremely broad theological and doctrinal terminology and even some carried-over Biblical words that mean differenct things in different traditions or contexts.
Look at some of the threads around here. As a relatively disinterested third party, you can see that if folks would dial it back a few notches and genuinely listen to one another ("listen to understand") they'd probably discover they're not all that far apart.
The (useless kind of) argument often starts when one reactively insists on using their definitions without establishing that we're all talking about the same thing. We forget the Matthew 16 concept of winning our brother in the name of scoring points in a public forum. |
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| "dial it back a few notches"
>> ha ha ain't that the truth sometimes!
"probably discover they're not all that far apart"
>> yep said that before, problem is the differences become more obvious and easier to dwell on than all the things on which we agree
Dan, congrats, you've scored! ~mike |
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| I have a saying that I came across long ago that I use frequently...for some diseases, time and hard lessons are the only cures. I myself have been guilty of violating that...emphasising diction rather than intention. As of late, I have had to really checl myself b/c of that. I use phrases and jargon that are taken as offensive...but if you were with me in person you would see a smile on my face...and I have taken phrases as offensive at the same time from others without considering the previous.
Interesting...they say the first step to begin the process of getting out of the whole you are digging is to actually stop digging...2nd is to get rid of the shovel.
Dan, you are correct about the military statement...usually good bonds form after the pieces are picked up. That is my point here...how strong and unified a church we would be if we would stop viewing disagreements as "God's directing us to seperate" and instead be able to form relationships that disagreements won't damage. |
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| Looks like I misunderstood again, sheesh. Anyways, good points from you both, Dan and wyp. You are right about the "polite" thing Dan. Many are afraid of conflict, I can't say I'm a great lover of it but at times it is necessary.
I also understand what you say WYP about text on a screen, it isn't the best form of communication, but in our case it is all we have. Many times, seeing a person's face, body language and tone of voice can take the perceived sting out of conflict but not always.
At the end of the day, if it is a matter of faith, a man must be persuaded by God. Sometimes through the use of suffering and the school of hard knocks, as you say.
It has been that way for me many times over.
Cameron. |
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| Funny, that is the only school I have graduated from that I keep registering back again every semester. By the time I am dead...I will have like 80phd's. |
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| School colors are black and blue; motto is "Ouch!"; song is "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen" |
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| I really wish you could understand how much I am laughing...school supplies include Tylenol, bandaids, ice, and codeine. |
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| The school uniform never completely ties closed at the back! |
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| Ha Ha... and the seats all open up into beds with lights, oxygen, and an automatic nurse pager |
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Thanks Sue, hopefully soon I will be picking things back up...please pray for us...we need it over here. |
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