Fr_Vazken
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||February 15, 2008 at 1:35am|email it|788 reads
 

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Suzie
February 15, 2008 at 2:20am

Aman Voznee.  Why do I refer to it with such fondess?  I think Voznee brings back childhood memories, maybe something I read in 1st grade :)  Anyway, rodents are only cute in children books and cartoons, otherwise they give me the creeps.  I think rodents, I think rats!!  Eeeewwwwww.

Why do these pagan rituals persist, but always in the shadow of an event on the church calendar?  Or maybe I have it backwards since people remember the pagan rituals but not the church holiday.  

Anyone participated in Vijag? I remember when I was a teenager, on Ascension Day we'd get together with girls, fill a pail with water, cover the water with flower petals, and each girl would throw a personal item, usually a ring, into the pail of water.  And then we'd recite verses from a poetry book and reach into the water to pick out an item.  The item matching the verse would be that girls lot. Crazy, huh?  How this is related to Ascension is really beyond me.  None of us actually recalled the church feast on that day - we were busy casting lots!

It might be interesting to see how many other extra-ecclesiatical rituals we can come up with... 

 

 

 

Ani
February 15, 2008 at 10:48am

Skunks are a good description, though I don't think that many will catch on to that ;)

But like you were saying, these rituals did make sense to people at some point. It's like we were discussing in Bible Study a few months ago - we had Pedro? Pablo? The early cave man. He sees lightning that strikes and causes fire. If we went back in time and told him how lightning works, it wouldn't make sense. So they came up with expalinations that did make sense - something must be up in the sky and it wanted to start a fire, maybe because the 'thing" in the sky didn't like something.

So a lot of early thinking was making a scenario that could make sense of the situation.  Maybe these rituals were brought about in the same way - trying to make sense of something. Or in times of religious supression, it was something that could be done in honor of a religious holiday, that was distant enough from the actual religious act that it wouldn't be suspected??

Ludwig
February 15, 2008 at 12:15pm

I see the fire jumping ritual as just a part of a cultural phenomenon and a part of the ancient heritage that the Armenians have. I find no religious significance, in this day and age, of the ancient tradition that we had as a nation. The ceremony is just a witness to what the Armenians were and did before Christ. What is interesting is how Saint Nerses prayers approached and converted the followers of the ancient pagan religion, who use to jump over fires as a purification ceremony.

 

Christ, who are the Living Fire, inflame my

soul with the fire of Your love, which You did

send forth upon the earth, that it may burn the

stains of my soul, sanctify my conscience, purge

the sins of my body, and kindle in my heart the

light of Your knowledge. Have mercy upon Your

Creatures and upon me, a great sinner.

Vartan
February 15, 2008 at 1:01pm
Ludwig, that was a great piece from St. Nerses. Thanks for sharing.

Linda, perhaps the reason why some Armenian churches do these old rituals while others do not is because some are more Armo-centric and see the Christianity as just another part of their Armenian identity rather than a lived out faith, while a church like ours is Christo-centric and old pagan Armenian rituals are secondary and trivial to our primary concern and allegiance to Jesus Christ and His Church.
Fr_Vazken
February 15, 2008 at 8:37pm
This is great. Let's make a list of these extras:
- Diaruntarch - fire jumping
- Holy Thursday - tying the string per gospel reading
- Ascension (Hampartzoom) - vijag (fortunes)
- Vartavar (Transfiguration) - water sprinkling or drenching!
- Asdvadzadzin (Assumption) - grapeblessing (though this is arguable)
- Holy Cross - Sweet basil which is tied to the finding of the Cross
- Easter/Theophany Eve - "tataghoom" - a mini-communion in the homes
Any others?

I wouldn't necessarily relegate these to "Armocentric" congregations. We do many of these in our church, and I think we maintain a nice balance between religion and nation. Agree: more than a difference in mission. Its an important discussion here.
Suzie
February 15, 2008 at 11:13pm

I think there's something to be said about continuing rituals, even if they are not traditions of the church, they are still things our ancestors did.  What I mean is this:  doing something that your grandparents did, and their grandparents, and those before them, and on and on creates a connection between us and those who came before us even if we live centuries removed.

In the same way, when I approach to receive Communion, I not only think about becoming one body with the congregants of our parish in the present time, but I also think about how this connects me with the billions of Christians who've received this very same Communion for the past two thousand years!  

 

 

 

Suzie
February 15, 2008 at 11:32pm
Oh, I remembered another old Armenian tradition.  How about the tradition of eating "salt bread" on St. Sarkis in hopes of dreaming of one's future spouse who would bring a glass of water during a very thirsty night!  Lusine's sitting next to me as I type this and I'm cracking up now.  I just recalled one night in college we baked salty bread on St. Sarkis and poured so much salt into the bread dough we couldn't even swallow the bread!!  That was our first and only attempt at keeping that tradition. 
Vartan
February 16, 2008 at 1:56pm
We know one of the ways Christianity took root and destroyed the pagan beliefs of the past was to take whatever tradition/ritual the people of the land had and show it in light of Christ or to show how certain beliefs they had were foreshadowings of Christ. As long as we do this consistently in our Church, remembering those ancient ways is fine.
Suzie
February 16, 2008 at 3:26pm

Linda, you bring up something very important: learning about Saints.  I have to say that until I came to St. Peter in Glendale, my knowledge of the lives of our Saints was very limited.  I didn't even understand what the importance was.  I think it's so important to study their lives, use them as our examples, and try to emulate their ways.  After all, they were fully human like the rest of us and yet were so steadfast in their faith that nothing could shake them. 

I agree, keep the rituals, but maintain the focus, understand why we do the things we do so we're not lost in 'performing' a ritual, rather, seeing it through the light of Christ, as Vartan points out.

koko
February 16, 2008 at 9:48pm
Hey guys, I was late to comment yesterday. And now I only have a little time. anyways It seems that we al think alike. I agree with Vartans explanation, but he seems to take it a bit lighter. Lindas last comment was perfect. And Suzie emphasizing on the Saints lives is a little part of what Ill talk about this wednesday. 2nd Peter 1:5-8 (knowledge). It looks like Suzie has a sixth sense or is it sheer coincidence?
Susan
February 17, 2008 at 8:05pm
Koko, I don't know about the sixth sense thing, but I do like how Suzie laid out the significance of balance and understanding of why we do the things we do. I agree with Vartan as long as those rituals focus and shine the Light rather than shadow, it is fine. However, I am not sure that all those rituals reach the masses, not because they were not intended to, but because maybe many don't have the patients or time for what is required to learn and know them. They may not necessarily be the only route or path to know your faith and your Creator. This however, is not the only tool or necessary tool to get on the path. It can be a part of your tools used. I think anyone who comes to know and understand them may become richer in education, history, culture and yes religious knowledge. It seems, yes it can be a very viable tool to growing closer to an understanding of our faith.  These tools of patterning & understanding the exemplery lives of our church saints are most valuable (and bear with me, as now I am just thinking on the keys) because of what is happening right now. Studying, dialoguing, trying to gain a greater understanding of the whys. They were held high on the pedistol for a huge reason. This is really causing me to wonder about the future generations after we are long gone-and this train of thought and topic requires a whole other  blog or questions in faith session.

I really appreciated how beautifully Suzie, you shared your approach to receiving communion. I think about that too, that whole connection with very, very much (past present near and far).
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