Michael, please explain to me where it says in the Bible, or indicate that we will be taken to heaven during the Rapture? Also explain to me the Tribulation? You said something about Prophetic timelines, can you elaborate on that from scripture?

Pat, will you please explain the scripture at hand to me, so that I can understand from your point of view, what it might mean?

United Faith, would you also, if you don't mind, give me your views on this scripture?

The English term rapture comes from the Latin verb rapere, "to sieze" or "to snatch." It pictures the "snatching up" of believers to meet their Lord in the clouds. The rapture will include both living and departed saints  and involves a transformation from earthly bodies to heavenly bodies. Here are some other verses:

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Also:

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Hi Christ, thank you for your input. Just a question or two to clarify things:

Are we going to meet the Lord in the clouds, like you said?

Can you please explain to me more what the teaching of the Rapture is, from the scripture in discussion, I can only gather that we are going to meet Jesus in the AIR, what happens after that, and can you please use scripture to explain it the way you see it.

You say the "the Bible is very clear on the Rapture", please explain in more depth if possible from the Bible. Forgive me if I push the point, but I don't want to be in error just accepting what other people say, I would rather have scriptural proof for what I should believe. Thank you.

I see you also mentioned something like the tribulation, but maybe we can discuss this at a later stage of this discussion or a next one.

God bless you in your efforts to help me see the Light. I thank you for your time.

In Christ's Love

Hannes 

Yes, I believe we are going to meet the Lord in the air(as much as I believe Jonah was swallowed by a huge fish!), just like the Bible says.

There are many schools of thought on what happens after this meeting in the clouds.  I personally believe we will be in heaven during the tribulation, but let's deal with one issue at a time.

The Bible says that we will meet Him in the air and that should settle it. The rapture is the meeting in the air (regardless of when it happens). 

In the Old Testament (Zach, I think), the return of Messiah (Jesus) is described with the Mt of Olives splitting when Jesus touches the earth. In the 1st Thess passage you used above, there is no mention of Him coming to the Earth. We meet Him in the clouds.

What happens next is purely conjecture, no matter what anyone tells you! Let's deal with what happens next in another post.

Bro Chris

Thanks again Chris,

Would it be correct to say that like you said, that the scripture at hand doesn't indicate "there is no mention of Him coming to the Earth, neither is there mention of Him taking us to Heaven?

Is it possible for you to give a Biblical perspective as to the "clouds" indicated in the scripture at hand, from other passages in the Bible perhaps?

Please give me your thoughts on the following passage of scripture, if you don't mind?

Mat 13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36  Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Maybe, if you have the time, also read Psalm 37, and Zech.1

Let me know your interpretation or conclusions, thank you.

B Blessed 

You wrote, "neither is there mention of Him taking us to Heaven." Look at the last part of the verse again:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word clouds in the original Greek is not the same word used for clouds in other places. This word carries a conotation of in the atmosphere.

Revelation chapter 4 begins to deal with numbers of people who are in Heaven. Chapter 5, and Chapter 6 do the same. I believe the rapture has happened, and the judgements begin to roll out beginning the time we call the Tribulation.

As to the verses from Matthew, look at the explanation Christ gives. v. 41- His kingdom will be on this Earth after the renovation by fire. But notice what the angels gather- only the things that offend and do iniquity. Another place where the Bible mentions the angels gathering (harvest) is in Revelation:

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The last part of v. 40 can also read: Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. ESV

As I read it, these events don't all happen at the same time, but during the end times, the end of the age. I believe that v. 41 and 42 addresses the Great White throne Judgement. Also known as the Sheep-Goat Judgement, the wicked unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire.

I will look at the other passages also.

Praying for you,

Brother Chris

Hi Chris,

To me it seems like 1 Thess.4:17, looking at the last part (and so shall we ever be with the Lord.) it only indicates that we will be forever with the Lord, still no mention of heaven. We can assume it will be in heaven, but that would not be according to that scripture though, would you agree?

I have looked at your statement of the clouds. According to the Strong's Concordance, I don't find any other explanation for clouds than this one:

G3507 (cloud/clouds)

νεφέλη
nephelē
nef-el'-ay
From G3509; properly cloudiness, that is, (concretely) a cloud: - cloud.
 

Maybe you have the greek to explain what other clouds are mentioned. Here are the scriptures related to the above explanation in the greek. (Matt.24:30, Matt.26:64, Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62, 1 Thess.4:17, 2 Pet.2:17, Jude 1:12, Rev. 1:7 / Matt.17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:34,35, Luke 12:54, Luke 21:27, Luke 1:9, 1 Cor. 10:1,2, Heb. 12:1, Rev.10:1, Rev. 11:12, Rev.14:14-16.) 

As to the verses from Matthew, you said "look at the explanation Christ gives.v.41 - His kingdom will be on this Earth after the renovation by fire." while the scripture says "Matt. 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" To me it seems like the kingdom is already established when the angels gather out all the things that offend? Or am I missing something?

Just note, that again I don't see any taking away to heaven or anywhere else.

Thanks again for your time and effort.

B Blessed

Hannes 

Well said Chris, we agree again...and Hannes I will let the man with the plan continue.  Let me ask you this...and be honest.  What is it you are trying to find out specifically?  You have asked about the rapture...and Chris's response is Biblical and accurate...to be quickened up or taken up".  You are asking where we will be taken.  Biblically heaven has been referred as a place in the sky from Genesis to Revelation.

Also be careful in your greek translations...one cannot translate greek as if in english (word for word)  The meanings of the individual words change based upon what other words they are connected to along with roots and prefixes, etc.  The Bible is specific in that Jesus is coming back...Chris has quoted the verses...Jesus Himself promised to come back...said He was preparing a Kingdom for us. 

I will sit back and let Chris continue but in your questioning, receive the Word as it is.  The NKJV, NASB, NES, and KJV are the most accurate translations of the original greek documents.  Their text is what the greek said...plain and simple

Hannes,

God gave you an intellect. What do you think Jesus is going to do with all of us when we meet Him in the air? Think about the number- the righteous dead and those that alive and have remained. The Earth is not large enoush for such a meeting. So, we meet Him in the air. What is Jesus going to do with us then?

Jesus told His disciples that He was going away so He could prepare a place for us, that where He was we might be also. This incident we are talking about is the first time anyone has seen the risen Christ since the time of the Apostles. He has come for His bride to take us to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Now, look at the Strong's definition you pasted above. Notice it says from G3509. Look at what G3509 is according to Thayer:

Hannes,

Quoted from above: "As to the verses from Matthew, you said "look at the explanation Christ gives.v.41 - His kingdom will be on this Earth after the renovation by fire." while the scripture says "Matt. 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" To me it seems like the kingdom is already established when the angels gather out all the things that offend? Or am I missing something?"

Keep in mind Jesus is King of all. Even if we are in Heaven, the angels are seperating the righteous from the unrighteous. Everything would be His kingdom. He will rule from Earth in the future.

Bro Chris

Blessings to all with Love that can never fade.

Firstly: webyouthpastor - You said:

"What is it you are trying to find out specifically?"

I guess the question at the biginning of the blog explains what I am trying to find out.

You have asked about the rapture...and Chris's response is Biblical and accurate...

Please understand, like I stated earlier, I'm not going to believe something simply because somebody told me so, I need scriptural proof, as to what my beliefs should be. I know what the "traditional" views are for the rapture, but I simply don't find scripture to validate that view. If Chris's response is Biblical, then why interchange words like "air" and "clouds" as if it is the same word, while gathering from the original language, Greek, that it is not the same word? I say again, to me it is not good enough if you try to explain away your interpretation by using different words to mean the same thing, they are not the same. If they are then proof it, generalisation isn't cutting it for me.

to be quickened up or taken up".

Maybe I am not with you on this one, does "quickened up" and "taken up" mean the same thing, are you referring to "harpazō"?

You are asking where we will be taken.  Biblically heaven has been referred as a place in the sky from Genesis to Revelation."

Is heaven your answer for where we will be taken? Is the air and heaven the same thing or clouds and heaven? Are you seated in the sky right now, according to Eph.1:3,20; Eph. 2:6?

B Blessed and I thank you for your time.

Bro Chris: You said:

God gave you an intellect. What do you think Jesus is going to do with all of us when we meet Him in the air? Think about the number- the righteous dead and those that alive and have remained. The Earth is not large enough for such a meeting. So, we meet Him in the air.

God did give me an intellect, and that is why I am using it. Even though I don't rely on my intellect, but rather on the Spirit to lead and guide me through all this (not that I indicate towards you the contrary). Meeting Him in the air instead of on the planet makes sense the way you think about it. I wouldn't know if that be the reason, but I can accept that from a logical point of view.

What is Jesus going to do with us then?

Jesus told His disciples that He was going away so He could prepare a place for us, that where He was we might be also. This incident we are talking about is the first time anyone has seen the risen Christ since the time of the Apostles. He has come for His bride to take us to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I assume you are referring to Joh 14:2-3  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. If that is the scripture, would you mind telling me from scripture if possible, where that place is? And what is the relation to what we are discussing in 1 Thess.4:16,17 ? "This incident we are talking about is the first time anyone has seen the risen Christ since the time of the Apostles." What is this incident you are talking about?

The word for cloud in the Thess passage is a feminine noun and not the same word used everywhere a cloud is mentioned.

Can you show where you got this statement you made from, a reference perhaps? Thanx. And can you explain to me what those clouds are? Use scripture if possible. Thanx again.

I wouldn't want to go into the marriage supper of the Lamb as yet if you don't mind, maybe on another blog some other time.

I don't know if you forgot about this one, would you care to answer?

As to the verses from Matthew, you said "look at the explanation Christ gives.v.41 - His kingdom will be on this Earth after the renovation by fire." while the scripture says "Matt. 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" To me it seems like the kingdom is already established when the angels gather out all the things that offend? Or am I missing something?

May our eyes be opened and may we experience what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; Eph.3:18.

Grow in Love and Grace.

Hannes 

Unfortunately, I do not have the time to deeply enter into this discussion. But, perhaps I can contribute a little bit. I am a Lutheran, and as such I hold to Amillennialism. Perhaps this study (commissioned by the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) on various eschatological views and the relevant Scriptures may be of use (note that there are additional pages in the study that can be reached by clicking at the bottom of the page):

The "End Times": A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism

Allow me to clarify...I can read what your blog is but your responses to undeniable scripture is what I am referring to.  Jesus said Himself He would be coming back to get us...  Paul specifically stated "like a thief in the night...like a twinkling in the eye...Jesus would raise the dead to life and we who remain would meet Him in the air..." that the word rapture, though never spoken in the Bible is the word that defines the action Jesus and Paul spoke about...

Again, you are translating greek words as if they are english...you cannot accurately translate greek in that manner.  Words take on different meanings depending on what they are connected to.  This is where so many good intending people go astray trying to validate their "revelations".  You said you don't want to take anyone's word for this yet all you are being offered are sriptures that are very clear.  Jesus is coming back for us at a time we do not know...those who are not His will be left behind. 

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

These are not vague scriptures that need interpretation...they are quite clear...speaking of greek, decifer this please...not trying to be arrogant but making a point...

Hi there, and blessings to all, may God's Love be our drive to ever increasing knowledge of Him.

To Jam137, thank you for your comment and link, I have looked at it. With this blog however, we are trying to not address different viewpoints but try and get to the root of the matter from looking at different scriptures to explain the topic at hand. Your input is valued and appreciated, thank you for your effort. Bless you.

To webyouthpastor: As you can see we haven't heard back from Brother Chris as yet, but I believe he will grace us with his presence as soon as time permits. Let's get on with it, shall we?

You said:

Allow me to clarify...I can read what your blog is but your responses to undeniable scripture is what I am referring to.

Just to clarify, I'm not denying scripture, but your interpretation of scripture. And somehow you have been very selective in answering the questions posted to you of statements you made "apparently from scripture". Here is the questions you didn't care to answer again:

 Would you care to answer?

You Said:

the word rapture, though never spoken in the Bible is the word that defines the action Jesus and Paul spoke about...

I've been asking, what that action is suppose to be that Jesus and Paul spoke about. Could you explain from scripture with your own interpretation what that "action" / rapture is? 

You said:

Again, you are translating greek words as if they are english...

If you were to examine this blog closely, you will find that I haven't made a statement as yet concerning translations from the greek to english, I simply quoted the Strongs and asked your verivication on the understanding of certain words, like "air" and "clouds", of which I am still awaiting answers. I only asked that you back your statements up with scripture and references. You either have answers or you believe the lie, it is as simple as that. And yes, "you cannot accurately translate greek in that manner.  Words take on different meanings depending on what they are connected to." I totally agree with that. It is the same in any language when translated to another. All I am asking is that you give proof for your statements.

You said:

speaking of greek, decifer this please...not trying to be arrogant but making a point...

δέ θέλω, ἐθέλω οὐ ὑμᾶς ἀγνοέω ἀδελφός περί κοιμάω ἵνα λυπέω μή καί καθώς λοιποί ἔχω μή ἐλπίς

Now, what would that point be exactly? That I don't understand Greek, or that I am not using my mental faculties, or am too simple to understand? Please make it plain that I can understand your point and not accept that you are trying to be arrogant. 

You Said:

Your question about "air" or "sky" is nullifying the scripture in question...

What question was that?

I do find Thayer's (Greek Scholar) comment that "clouds" may mean different things, but nothing you proposed so far.

G3509

The page I linked to is the first of a 4 page discussion. On Page 3, it says:

The English word rapture is derived from the Latin translation of the verb "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 (rapiemur). It refers to the event described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, namely that all Christians, both dead and living, will be caught up by the Lord to meet Him in the air at His second advent. Paul mentions the "rapture" in response to a specific problem in the church at Thessalonica. The Thessalonians apparently had grieved over the death of some members of the church because they feared that these dead were excluded from the future salvation associated with Christ's second advent (1 Thess. 4:13).

Paul corrects the Thessalonians' distorted view of the end by informing them that the "dead in Christ will rise" and actually precede the living in being caught up in the air to meet Jesus. As a result, both groups of believers--the dead who will be raised and the living Christians who will be transformed (1 Cor. 15:51-52)--will "always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17; 5:10). The purpose of the "rapture" which Paul describes in 1 Thess. 4:17 is evident from the language he employs in this verse. The word translated "to meet" is a technical term used in the New Testament period to describe a public welcome given by a city to a visiting dignitary. The leading citizens of the city would ordinarily leave the city "to meet" the distinguished visitor and then accompany him into the city (cf. Acts 28:15). Paul seems to be saying, therefore, that Christians will meet the Lord in the air to accompany Him in honor to the earth for Judgment Day. Christians will be included in His glorious company of angels as He descends to the earth.

The "End Times": A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism (Page 3)

In other words, Paul is not saying that Christians will meet Christ in the air (roughly a few miles above the surface of the planet) and then go into heaven (wherever that is) for some period of time before returning with Him in judgment (as pre-trib and mid-trib rapture premillennialists believe), but rather he is saying that Christians will meet Christ in the air as He descends to judge the earth.

Amillenialists hold that this event takes place on the "Last Day" (John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54, 11:24, 12:48), when all of the dead---both believers and unbelievers---will be raised (see John 5:28-29) and the Final Judgment takes place (see the "close of the age" parables of Matthew 13 and the "sheep and the goats" discussion of Matthew 25:31-46). See the study I linked for more info.

Ok Hannes...again, just to be understood from the get-go, b/c as I re-read, I want to make sure you understand that (this would be so much better if we could be in person) I am not lunging at ou or anything like that...a person reading this could see it that way...I just want to make sure that is covered first...

Yes, the "rapture" comes from the passage of scripture with harpazo in it...but...in line with the text what Paul is saying is that we will be instantly taken from this physical earth as we know it...that is not a personal translation...that is his use of the language.  Now could it mean a cloud of people...as said before the word itself alone means cloudiness but how and where it is used means the clouds found in the sky.  In other words we will be taken up into our sky...but the world will never see...so it is the sky that the angels "appeared" in to the shepherds, and to jacob, etc.  The angels didn't just "show up" the shepherds eyes were opened.

The Bible makes specific that angels are walking among us and we never see them.

Now I keep bringing up the greek b/c you keep bringing up harpazo...which is the greek word for "to sieze".  Rapture is merely like one saying "Christmas" or "Easter."  It is a word that describes a lengthy detailed event that Biblically will happen.  Does the use of Christmas and Easter bother you as well, b/c they are also not in the Bible?  Not being redundant...but serious.

You said "Just to clarify, I'm not denying scripture, but your interpretation of scripture. And somehow you have been very selective in answering the questions posted to you of statements you made "apparently from scripture". Here is the questions you didn't care to answer again..."...as well as other stuff

It is not an attempt to jump aside from the point rather just to get straight to it...the whole meaning of the greek was to attempt to illustrate the fact that one should not go beyond the NKJV, NASB, NESB and try to re-interpret the greek b/c unless you are formally trained in greek, one can have no accurate clue of its meaning...hense the Jehovah Witnesses... it was NOT to be in any way a show of arrogance to you...but I hear people all the time try to redefine the greek it should not be so

Now as far as my "misuse" of scripture...please provide details...b/c I have merely stated them straight from the BIBLE...and I have to ask are you reading them...do you believe that the BIBLE is the infallible word of God...b/c you said "apparantly from scripture" and elsewhere you said that you disagreed with the translation...I never translated that scripture, I just stated that it was undeniably certain in its translation.

You said you want scripture, you were given it...so I am trying to understand what the difficulty to understand is.  My way of getting to the point might be alien to you but as a teacher, you kind of see when someone is confusing themselves and steer clear of the dust that is being raised...this is so simple...really...take the scriptures as they are.  We will be taken in to the sky, and then from there we will go be with the Lord.

What a great and awesome day...truth is I don't care where we go from that point...

Again someone said, the problem here is we are trying to describe the powers of an infinite God with finite words

Hi webyouthpastor, thanks for the comment. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I hope you are well and truely blessed. May God's grace increase on your life and ministry.

Let me make a few statements and then see if I understand correctly:

There is a rapture in the Bible (It might not be the correct word used, but nevetheless). It talks about a meeting in the air (not heaven) of the saints with the Lord on His return one day.

Jesus is coming with the clouds from heaven. These clouds are people and not physical clouds (those white stuff floating in the air).

We will also be "clouds" meeting Jesus in the air.

We will then be always like that (in glorified physical form) with the Lord. The passage at hand does not say if we will go to heaven or to earth after we have met in the air. For that we have to view other scriptures.

What will happen when we meet Jesus in the air and after that? Let's look at the following passages:

Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

Psa 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

Psa 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

Psa 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

Psa 37:8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

Psa 37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Psa 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psa 37:21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Psa 37:26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

Psa 37:27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psa 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Psa 37:32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

Psa 37:33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psa 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Psa 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Psa 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

also

Zep 1:2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.

also

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Howzit Nico Dude, he he he, I just had to do that. Blessings Brother, may God's favour and grace bring you into the best God has to offer you. May God's love reign between us and we grow to maturity in Him.

I would very much like to focus your attention on a couple of scriptures if you don't mind. Hope it blesses you. By the way it was an awesome picture you painted there with Jesus taking everything on Himself while He was on the Cross, especially if you take in consideration that he became sin (2 Cor.5:21) and took the punishment for all humankind on the Cross (Rev.14:19-Rev.16:17). What an awesome Master we serve. Here are some scriptures to clarify a thought or two relating to "If God wanted us to know...":

Thanks Nico, I don't agree with your statement that we should not know everything, but believe that we should come to the full knowledge (Eph.4). That does not include knowing everyting about Satan (Rev.2:24). We should know the good not the evil. But I think we are thinking on the same line here, I understand what you mean and I think you do me. Thanks for the encouragement and I love you my brother. Grace to you and your loved ones. Peace.

Hannes

Hey Hannes, I actually responded a long time to your last deal there but it apparantly fell through the cracks in hyperspace...seems to be a reoccurance.  Anyways...the word cloud is not referenced to a group of people here..it isn't...it means the smokey looking things up in the sky.  Jesus ascended on a cloud...not on people and the Bible says He wil return in the same manner.  Heaven is in the sky...that is Biblical and Jesus Himself said He was leaving to prepare for us a place and He would return to take us there. 

Remember this, we only see in the natural...but when we have been perfected, we will see EVERYTHING...The Bible specifically says we are surrounded by angels at all times.  Jacob's eyes were opened to see the angels going up and down from heaven as if on a ladder.  The shepherds eyes were opened to see the angels in the sky.  Heaven exists in a dimension that we just can't see.  But that is where He is taking us.  The world will see nothing but a vanishing...which will cause utter chaos and set up the need for a "savior"...which is why many believe that the "rapture" will occur before the tribulation.

The Scriptures you listed above fully support what is going to happen.  Revelations is clear that before the New Jerusalem is built the whole world will be destroyed...the WHOLE world...and then we will live here on earth...a perfect earth...with God forever.  The Bible makes many promises but the timelines can at times be unclear.  That is why ALL of scripture must be used so to make sure there are no contradictions.

The meek shall inherit the earth...that is correct but Jesus never said WHEN so we should not assume anything else...unless we are specifically told and Revelations tells us so.  Many people have incorrectly translated those scriptures for self-gain and ended up homeless and landless...The Bible was not written as one writes a novel...and it cannot be read that way...I am sure you know that.  Now... in respons to your last message...again (this one better not erase)

Let me make a few statements and then see if I understand correctly:

There is a rapture in the Bible (It might not be the correct word used, but nevetheless). It talks about a meeting in the air (not heaven) of the saints with the Lord on His return one day.  Actually the "air" is the heavens.  Remember, we can only see in the flesh right now...but every reference we have to heaven is in the sky...We will not be seen by men...but we will be taken in the direction of "up" with a transformed body that no longer is held to any laws of this world in a dimension that cannot be seen by this world.  Right now we only see in part...

Jesus is coming with the clouds from heaven. These clouds are people and not physical clouds (those white stuff floating in the air).  These clouds are the clouds in the sky.  As He ascended, so shall He descend.  He did not ascend on a cloud of people.  We have to take this as it is.  The ascension "on a cloud" was more of a descriptive use of words but that is what they ALL saw it as...

We will also be "clouds" meeting Jesus in the air.  The Bible does make reference to "a great cloud of witnesses" but that is not the case here.  We will not be the clouds referenced by the passage we are dealing with...the clouds here, again, are clouds. 

We will then be always like that (in glorified physical form) with the Lord. The passage at hand does not say if we will go to heaven or to earth after we have met in the air. For that we have to view other scriptures.  Actually it says we will be with the Lord...and Jesus Himself already told us what He would do when He came back...take us to HEAVEN.  Paul did not need to repeat that, Jesus Himself said it.  The Earth will have to go through a huge change before His perfect Kingdom is established here.

What will happen when we meet Jesus in the air and after that? Let's look at the following passages:  The Passages you chose support what I am saying...you have to apply them to the whole deal here.  Jesus said it plain and simple, were He is going, He will return and take us to when the time is right.

Take it easy dude

Hazard

Those cracks in Hyperspace happens to me a lot. The people in the know says "my session timed out". He he he. Blessings man happy to see you back. Back to our topic at hand.

You said: Actually the "air" is the heavens. (This was one of my earlier question, remember?)

I would rather state it as the heavens are in the air. How else will Jesus descend from heaven and we meet Him in the air. Why use two words with different meanings to describe the same thing even in the same sentence? Doesn't make sense.

You said: These clouds are the clouds in the sky.  As He ascended, so shall He descend.  He did not ascend on a cloud of people.  We have to take this as it is.  The ascension "on a cloud" was more of a descriptive use of words but that is what they ALL saw it as...

You are right Jesus did not ascend on a cloud of people, but rather a cloud of people received Him. Well taking the whole of scripture and the meaning of the word "cloud" which we established could mean cloud = white fluffy thing or cloud = bunch of people. And especially looking at Acts 1:9 (thank you for referring to this passage), we can see it was a cloud who was receiving Jesus out of sight. Taking in consideration Acts 1:9 and Heb.12:1 it seems to me very rational and scriptural to refer to clouds as people.

You said: Actually it sa