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| Assurance of salvation...got it? |
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The following is a very thought-provoking quote I came across in a book about baptism I recently read...
"Faith severed from obedience is presumption, just as formal obedience severed from faith is self-righteousness." (John Murray, Christian Baptism, Baker Book House, 1974)
This quote spells out a truth I finally realized after years of going around and around on the issue of eternal security. Without obedience to God's word, there really isn't any assurance of salvation.
The funny thing is, during the years of my life when the topic of eternal security was of greatest concern to me, obedience to God was among the least of my priorities. However, when the seeking of God's will and obedience to scripture eventually became a top priority, eternal security completely disappeared from my radar screen as a topic of study.
One of the latest memory verses to make it into our new index card system is a treatment of this security in Scripture...
6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. Apparently the last thing the apostolic writer wanted the Hebrew Christians to become was complacent, or presumptious. His recipe for assurance of receiving the ultimate reward was diligence, i.e. keep working! This would be the only way that their salvation (and ours) would be completely assured.
Assurance of salvation is something no Christian should be without. At the same time, we should beware of false assurance. There really is only one way to be sure, absolutely sure, isn't there? To fully embrace Jesus as "Lord" is to know with every fibre of our being that we are secure in the hand of Christ for eternity! Perhaps the best way to resolve the issue of assurance is to turn it into a non-issue by making God's will preeminent in our life.
Rather than categorize people as either saved or unsaved, C.S. Lewis looked at it this way, "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' "
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Great blog Mike!
I would agree that as we walk with God, our assurance of salvation is established and secure. This blog should give us a great opportunity for some fruitful discussions regarding eternal security. I look forward to the responses.
PT |
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Thanks Pastor Tim! Yes I too look forward to the discussion. Having read a few books on the topic, sweating it out for a few years, finally just putting the issue behind me and doing what I should have done from the start....following Christ!
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Amen. For me, the issue is very confusing. I much rather it be a cut and dry issue, but unfortunately it is not. There are many issues that I have become totally convined . However, eternal security and eschatology are two issues I am still not sure about.
I love the statement you made when you said, "finally just putting the issue behind me and doing what I should have done from the start....following Christ! I totally agree!
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Procyon |
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February 25, 2008 at 12:16am |
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"Perhaps the best way to resolve the issue of assurance is to turn it into a non-issue by making God's will preeminent in our life." It takes many years before we make God's will pre-eminent in our life. Many are the wasted years when we followed our own will, our own desire, our own reasoning & imagination. Good post. |
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I have to agree with Procyon and Pastor Tim, therefore by the mathematical tranformative property, I agree with you Mike...
Anyways, I am bewildered by the fact that devout men (and of course women) of the faith have crossed swords over this matter to the point of damaging personal relationships concerning individuals who for some reason have identified with the cross but refuse to carry it. My question is why aren't we aiming those crosshairs (if I can use that word) towards those who have denied the faith and taken God's grace in vain. Why aren't we saying to them openly "what part of dying to self and being born in Christ therefore it is not you who lives but Christ in you don't you understand?" instead of trying to be kind and gentle in fear of "driving them farther away" yet we aourselves argue to the point of breaking unity behind close doors about them...
Am I on a rampage? No. But this is really a subject that should be addressed by God's people. Pastor Tim, I have to agree (again) this is not a cut and dry...there is good justification for both sides of the argument...my thing is, why test it?
Add to the point of the post, in all of my years I have yet to meet "backslider" who "walked away from the cross" that really actually picked it up to begin with. Many people identify with Christ and are touched by His sacrifice even to the point of convincing them and all around them that they have received salvation...but that is not so. Admitting being a sinner and receiving Christ for who He is and what He will do in us is a universe apart from identifying with Him.
In the church world we like ot use the phrase "fall from grace" in reference to a "believer" who has by some standard that is not written yet people decide for themselves fallen into a some level of sin that they no longer are in fellowship...but the defintion of grace as I understand it means that as a believer, the farther we stray, the harder He pulls. Perhaps those who have fallen from an unlimited grace were those never in it. I have done some pretty dumb things...attrocious(spelling?) even but God has never let me go...I have never fallen from it just fallen deeper in it.
Mike, your statement "Without obedience to God's word, there really isn't any assurance of salvation." really is the key here in my most humble (if that were possible) of opinions. Only in His Word are we ever able to find the road map to His will for us and begin to realize that we can never comprehend His infinite love for us |
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Good words Patrick! Pressed for time at the moment, but I deeply appreciate your post, especially these two lines...
there is good justification for both sides of the argument...my thing is, why test it?
and
Perhaps those who have fallen from an unlimited grace were those never in it. |
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Megan |
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February 25, 2008 at 4:13am |
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| Awesome work..Will have to keep an eye out for that book. |
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5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Good post mike! |
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Robin |
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February 25, 2008 at 5:00am |
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Mike, As always you bring a great point of discussion. I believe the statement you quoted fully. I also believe that we need to put obedience with our faith to have fulfilled and meaning life with Jesus.
I do wonder about the following: Salvation is a gift, given by the heavenly Father through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. Once a gift is given...is it ever taken back??? Does God take back a gift He paid such a great price for...because we don't move beyond just accepting it?
Who is responsible for the person who didn't move beyond just accepting? I would venture to say perhaps that person (who led them to Jesus) will be held accountable for not making a disciple?
Do I believe is eternal security?? What I do believe is once God gave the gift and it was accepted He doesn't take it back. That, in my opinion, would go against the very nature of God.
Thanks for the thought provoking topic. ~Robin |
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| When I was a baby in Christ my security in my salvation was safe as a baby in his/her mother's arms. As I began to grow fears would sometimes ease in, "am I truly saved then why do it mess up." As my walk with the Lord has matured I stand firm on my salvation. I am a child of God and satan can not make me doubt that. Sweet Sweet Peace. |
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Is it possible to believe, without lasting benefit? Once having received the gift, is it possible to change one's mind? to later refuse the gift? see.......... 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; the done deal ! 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. or not? I think "that is the question".......... Mike, I agree with you..........When... "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want....." not, When I say the Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. Next to "never having believed"..........is the tragedy, "having believed in vain". God Bless You All |
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Great Post Mike, I just have to tell you this now,
Yesterday Pastor Mark really had me thinking when I left church, and I had a really deep and meaningful discussion with my two girls about the most recent elephant in the church. My oldest daughter asked me this:
"Mom, once we're saved ....we're saved right? No matter what else we might do in life, God doesn't forget us if we still keep on sinning right?" She seemed a little afraid of the possible answer, and at first I wanted to immediately just say "yes", but instead I told her this: "Yes, and No, honey, I believe once we are saved, God holds on to us and does not let us go, we however struggle sometimes to keep holding on to him, I know once we have accepted the Lord as our savior, and repented of our sins, "yes" we are saved,
But....., we need to live in a state of continuous repentence, and we have to be diligent to obey the Lord everyday and make a true effort not to live in the same sin he has delivered us from.
Your words have only confirmed what I already believed, and what perfect timing. I cant wait to show your blog to my girls tonight. They are already "oohhed & aaahhhhed" when I am able to show them ways that God has answers questions and prayers, I know they will enjoy hearing your words with the scripture you provided, especially since we just had this conversation last night... very very cool Mike. thanks again.... "Everything Always in His perfect time" |
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Steve |
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February 25, 2008 at 5:56am |
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Mike, I also have struggled with this concept but recently have thought of it more in relational terms. If my life is about being as close to God as possible, being the best friend of God's I can be----then its a nonissue. |
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| Just because we sometimes "mess up", does not mean we are not "truly saved". Jesus is the ONLY Child of God, who has never messed up ! |
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Thanks Megan, Keith, and Jairah!! I'm blessed to know this spoke to you on some level!
Robin, a most thoughtful response, thank you!! What did you think of Patrick's post just a little further up? He is clearly another brother who has wrestled with this topic.
I would agree that once God has given a gift, he will never take it back. But the argument always becomes, does God take it back or can we give it back. Another variant is, if it can't be given back or taken away, was it ever really received in the first place. But rather than debate the old tired "once saved always saved" yet again, I believe it is far better to talk about true assurance of salvation, and the Bible only gives this assurance to one group of people ..... those who are actively following Jesus. For these there is no doubt! Follow him well, or follow him in struggle, just follow him! |
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| Steve...AMEN brother! That's what I call assurance! |
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| Cheryl, we all mess up! But here's an interesting point.... we have to actually be doing something to mess it up, don't we? If you aren't doing anything (for your Savior), what is there to mess up? Go ahead my friend and make a mess, just do it for the Lord!!!!!! LOL |
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Wow Tammy, a million thank you's for that comment!!! I am seriously getting those "glory goosebumps" again...you know, the ones you get when something just couldn't be a mere coincidence!! :-)
I had a similar talk with my own children yesterday - on the way to church! (not even realizing what Pastor Mark was going to preach on!) |
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| Paul....thanks for jumping in, those are great points...sounds like we're singing the same tune brother! |
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| ok, Mike your gonna just give me the heepy geebies! ( in a good way of course) Isn't God amazing how he just reveals himself through a message, and then even goes on to let conversations evolve into revalations! So very cool, I love when a Sunday message carries further into the week, and effects more people on a deeper level. God is good.... All the time. |
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| Amen Tammy! Now the difficult part.......remembering what God has done! |
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You just reminded me of a great author who wrote:
Without a constant and prayerful remembrance of God's gracious acts in the scheme of redemption, we soon lose touch with our Creator. But those who are able to parade before their mind's eye the glorious ways of God will never be found complaining in their own spiritual wilderness, wondering if God has forsaken them.- Curt W. Nordhielm
At the heart of our response to God is "remembrance" remembering helps us be sensitive to God and others remembering helps us to stifle doubts about God's love and power remembering helps us fight temptation |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 6:36am |
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| Mike, as usual brother you have a great blog! I was just thinking of this yesterday also, not to doubt my salvation, hence more to do a study on it. So, I will just watch this blog!!! LOL!! I agree with Keith's verse. Also, I know I will not be moved from the palm of God, I rest assured in my salvation. I know due to hearing the still small voice. It comes in and is sweet and soft and strong and mighty like the waves on a ocean tide. WOW!! Praise God! Okay back to my coffee... |
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Cheryl... a) thank you so much, dear sister!! b) I am so glad you have such an assurance! I think that I know you well enough to know you are a follower (active tense) c) to hear the still small voice, you have to be listening (again, active tense!)
ps... aren't bulleted lists awesome? |
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| If I might add...............I have heard both sides of this issue preached, shared, talked about by Godly men and women I love, admire, and respect. What I believe about this issue is the result of much personal prayer and personal study of God's Word. I believe goodness and mercy follow us as we follow Him ! |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 7:29am |
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Mike, okay...I studied some...LOL! I came across these verses which were part of a Salvation study I took a hundred years age {when I was 9 yrs old~see my profile page! lol!} I couldn't find the one about...... It is a free gift from God, lest any man boast. We are not saved by works but by His grace and mercy. Does anyone know where that is located?
10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus `as' Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same `Lord' is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Paul - yes, I too have heard both sides. There are much smarter and more Godly men on BOTH sides than me! So admitting that, I won't presume to be smarter than anyone and take a side! In fact, that's one thing this blog has not done is take a side in that old debate. But then, my point is if you are actively following Christ, you don't really need to take a side....the point of the debate is fully moot! :-)
Chafas (apodemeo)...ah, thanks brother! (for the comment and stars!) Good illustration with the drawings on the frig. If they don't improve with maturity, that shows lack of growth, and possibly lack of care too!
Cheryl...you've provided one of the classic proof texts for "easy salvation". I'm not arguing with you (really, I'm not), but just to show you how NOT cut and dried the debate is, how do you interpret what you've provided in light of Jesus' own words...
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt 25:45-46)
The other passage you are looking for is Eph 2:8-9, which says we are not saved by our works, let we should boast. But then, in the passage I just quoted, Jesus demands works! |
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| to Cheryl from Ga. I'm with you, I too am a Child of God and satan cannot make me doubt that ! I thank God for this "know so" salvation !! |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 8:16am |
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Mike~I don't think you have anything argumentative in you!
Our works {after salvation, for believers only} exemplify the Fruit of the Spirit. i am looking for the verse about chaff and wheat and they were burned up..be back...
Also, what about in light of this verse:
4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work. 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and `then' cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white already unto harvest. 4:36 He that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal; that he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 4:37 For herein is the saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye have not labored: others have labored, and ye are entered into their labor.
All verb tenses?? |
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shane |
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February 25, 2008 at 8:28am |
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Cheryl: It's located in Ephesians 2:8-9.
I find this topic fascinating for the responses I've heard over the years. so many of the responses are mere theory, with no practical implications; for instance, the classic phrase "Once saved, always saved." It sounds great and takes into account God's power but it doesn't call for our response, which all of Scripture does.
There is obviously verses supporting both sides and because of this it only makes sense that both sides are true. We are often sure about our Biblical beliefs because we have Scripture to back it up, and on this issue it is very easy to argue from either vantage point with a very adequate defense. Our struggle lies in the fact that God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than ours. To understand how it works, He must reveal it.
It is my belief that we can't lose our salvation and God doesn't ever take it back; however, Scripture makes it clear that it is our choice, along with examples of those who or can walk away from the faith (Ps. 125, Alexander & Hymaneus, in one of the epistles talking specifically to Christians it mentions how our actions can lead to the same fate as Satan himself. If our theology doesn't change our actions and promote living for God then we ought to throw that theology away. It's better to believe the truth which may be harder to accept because of it's implications on our lives, but it's better than letting Satan use the same trick he used in the garden by twisting god's words to make Adam and Eve believe they were okay.
The truth is where their is no obedience there is no faith, and faith is what justifies us. You can't have faith without obedience. I think of how I couldn't sleep on Christmas Eve as a child because I couldn't wait to see what Santa brought me. I would listen to see if I could hear him, it was a lot of fun. My belief in Santa motivated expectant actions, and faith in God will always bring about relational closeness with Him and others.
I John 5:13 was quoted up a bit, and it sounds dogmatic, but to truly understand it you need to read chapter 4 and 5. John says we know the salvation we have because of how we behave basically, and the way we behave if it pleases god comes from God's grace. It all works together, you can't have one without the other. Arguments for or against each side are true but only partially always to the exclusion of many passages.
Paul said of himself toward the latter part of his life, the he had the hope of salvation and it wasn't something that he had already attained. Everywhere we see the word saved it seems our culture assumes it means eternal life, but the word saved simply means healed. Salvation is aprocess that we classify into 3 different parts: justification, sanctification and glorification because of our theology, but the word simply means healed. It seems to me that as we accept God's offer of grace and healing we are saved little by little, and right on into eternal life if that is our practice in this life.
I'll be quiet on this note, my belief is that our man-made formulated doctrines have done irreparable damage to the narrow, graceful way of Christ, and it should all be thought about and viewed discerningly, but not used as I springboard for our decisions, not these man-made doctrines (eternal security or you can lose it). The Bible can easily dismantle both arguments.
Hopefully hepful not offensive, but helpful. |
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Cheryl, I am still weak and easily drawn into arguments, no doubt!! Probably the only reason I don't venture into a debate on this topic is b/c I've already done that plenty of times to no avail...people don't generally make up their minds as a result of debates. And people almost never switch sides as a result of the debate, since there is so much material to support both points of view!
That passage you posted contains Jesus' admonition to share the Gospel...we never know in what condition we might find someone...they may be teetering on the verge of belief, having already received the word from others before us, so that our "labor" on their behalf is really unnecessary...their believe is actually the result of the work of those who labored before us, but our brief efforts can be enough to nudge them over the edge! |
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Shane, thanks for sharing your viewpoint! Very interesting. Hopefully you'll continue to weigh in as the Lord leads you!
Of all that you shared, one thing really got me thinking... You used the phrase "to the exclusion of many passages". So true! Typically when the subject of assurance is debated, both sides bring forward much supporting Scripture while ignoring that which doesn't support or even contradicts their own view. I agree with you, when we come face to face w/God, we are all in for many surprises, particularly on this issue! |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 8:44am |
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| Amen brother!!! I agree, He knows, Love~ |
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Glenn |
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February 25, 2008 at 9:26am |
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Mike you sure know how to spark a conversation. I would once again (seems like always) agree with your point of view here. I love this quote of C.S. Lewis "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' "
If we are not living by God's will, and following his direction for our lives we are not truly His children. Not that we will be perfect, becasue we know no one but Jesus is, yet we seek to be Holy because He is Holy. When we are following in His footsteps we can't go astray. Just walk in the way Jesus did. peace my friend. |
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| If we truly believe a friend, or loved one, or stranger is in danger of getting run over by an unseen train, should we not say something? Is that not love? |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 9:41am |
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| Mike, my tv pic brother, I never see arguing~I only see learning. I have learned from your wisdom and the wisdom of others.~ Love ya~ |
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..."my tv pic friend", lol! That's cute, my chucky cheez pic friend!
Paul, you are one of the great lovers on MyChurch!
Glenn...thanks! You make an interesting point... God's children know him. They recognize his leading, and they value it! What is every small child's greatest fear? To be left alone by their parents! I think the analogy applies. |
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Lourdes |
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February 25, 2008 at 11:17am |
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GREEEEEAAAT blog!!!!
We have a serious responsibility when it comes to our salvation and we should not take it lightly.
2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
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I missed knowing that if I died, I would be with Him....because I was walking with Him in obedience to the best of my ability. I was doing the things He asked of me...and now we begin again....and I am saved by grace through faith.....but faith without works is dead. My love for Jesus will activate and motivate my actions and lifestyle. You wrote this very "wisely" I would say. I am not a once saved always saved person, but for those who are, I just say, "Well, why risk it? Just live for the Lord, and no worries." And that is kinda what this is saying. Make your calling sure. :D |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 11:29am |
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| There is an old saying.....Salvation is not a license to sin. May we bear His fruit. |
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Deb |
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February 25, 2008 at 12:02pm |
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| My goal in life is to become more and more focused on God, rather than myself. Each day I try to do a little better, but I still fail. Maybe by the end of my life I will have it down. Great blog! |
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JoshMo |
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February 25, 2008 at 5:12pm |
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Thanks Mike!
This is pretty much my take on this issue. If you remember my older OSAS blog, which i bet you do :), that was never really a big issue. Diligence in your faith is such a good way to put it. Mistakes are one thing but constant wrongdoing is something else. This is a post that I have been waiting for. Thank again Mike! |
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| Mike, don't mean to get off the wonderful blog but, remember my new name "Cheryl from Ga" that way I don't get confused! lol |
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Hello Josh! Yes I remember that blog - stirred up a pretty heated conversation, the first on that topic on this site as I recall. I thought with this post I might go for a balance, something we could all agree on. :-)
Hi Cheryl from Ga! Nobody could ever confuse you, you're a very unique individual even w/o the "from Ga"... in a good way! |
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Cheryl |
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February 25, 2008 at 6:30pm |
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| CherylnotinGa thinks CherylinGa is the best! Love you~ |
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I think people want to think once saved always saved, therefore they feel they have a safe base to slide into. But if we're not totaly following Gods word wouldn't that put us at risk as being on the fence. You know either be Hot or Cold..hmmm then again we all sin and ask forgiveness with hopes we make it into heaven. And isn't that what it's about to be with our loving Father. The best choice I think would be strive to live a Godly life, God knows we fall short but why keep falling over the same mistakes. You get burned once you learn to leave the thing that burned you alone. |
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| The age old question... but it happens. |
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Gene |
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February 26, 2008 at 3:13am |
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Mike, I'm right there with you. It's that whole "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" thing.
Salvation can never be taken from us by anyone or anything. But we can let go.
So the decision to follow Christ is something that happens several times a week, not just once in a lifetime.
Gene |
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Striving to live a "Godly life"...sounds like that should do it...but then, couldn't that turn out to be very subjective? Maybe we should try to follow Jesus a little closer each day than we did the day before......Paul says "...by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." (Gal 5:16)...How do I do that?? Well, I'm trying to learn a little more each day, and put it into practice more and more as well. Thanks for the comment, Trish!!
More on what you said, JoshMo... Regarding the old "once saved always saved" arguments. They are so pointless! Why? Because people basically argue over what happens to folks who do not do the will of God nor care to!! Is that any of us? Really??? Man I sure hope not! Like I said above, there really is no assurance of salvation for people whose lives show no leading of the Holy Spirit, and that's the real issue. Paul never tried to comfort people in that boat, nor did Peter, or any of the other NT writers either, nor even Jesus! Faith and deeds indeed appear to go hand in hand. We can argue over the exact nature of that relationship, but the fact remains, they are inextricably intertwined. |
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| Gene....I couldn't agree more w/your basic point! |
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I am trying to get caught up on yesterday's comments, I got home late from work yesterday and the rest of the evening was devoted to family time!! (until I collpased in bed exhausted, a tad earlier than usual I might add!)
Deb...wonderful goal you have in life, my friend! That was precisely my point in the comment I just posted (at 6:26am) in response to Trish (lilsassy....ps- I don't think you're all that sassy, Trish!). "to follow Jesus a little closer each day than we did the day before"... at least I know I'm almost always headed in the right direction, even if I stumble backwards a bit - which I do!
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Lara...right on! I say with you, "My love for Jesus will activate and motivate my actions and lifestyle." You also quoted James, "faith w/o works is dead." Guess what? If we live with a faith/works mentality, letting our love for our Savior motivate us to do, then for us (and us only) "once saved always saved" is true! Right? That is assurance of salvation!
Lourdes, thank you so much. I couldn't agree more, our salvation is our responsibility, no one else's, and woe to us if we take such an important matter lightly. Yet Satan does all he can to have us do exactly that. Never before have there been so many things to distract us from God, and therefore eternal life with/in him. We're playing with fire, eternal fire! |
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Glenn |
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February 26, 2008 at 5:56am |
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Mike you said "Faith and deeds indeed appear to go hand in hand. We can argue over the exact nature of that relationship, but the fact remains, they are inextricably intertwined. " (sorry about the color change) I could not agree more. We recieve our faith through the gift of God, yet we need to work the works that we see Jesus do. As Jesus worked the works that he saw His Father in heaven do. Again it comes back to following in the steps of Jesus. peace |
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| This is so important ! It's not like we have a choice between Heaven or some other nice place................ |
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JayKTX |
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February 26, 2008 at 7:06am |
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| You handled an old argument in a fresh balanced way. Good job! |
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