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| Denominations are good!! |
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I gotta tell you, I love denominational Christianity!
(Uh oh, the masses pick up the stones, ready to pass judgment for such an unpopular view.)
Really, I love the fact that they are bastions of tradition and orthodox theology. I love the structure, and most of all I love the variety!!! So many different flavors of Christianity to choose from! My view on denominational differences isn't that they all have contradicting views, all of which are partially wrong in some way, but that since God is infinite, each denomination emphasizes a little something different about God's infinite truth. Yet no denomination can possibly capture ALL that is true about God! So since none of them can possibly have it all right, we are given the opportunity to pick which subset of "rightness" most resonates with our personality. Yes, that's right, personality. After all, since when did personality NOT come into play in a relationship?
Where do denominations go wrong? I would say when folks start to see their own denomination as the body of truth rather than just another subset of truth. When people start to esteem and worship their denominational traditions rather than the Lord, major problems arise. When people see their denomination as their identity, the unity of the universal church begins to fragment.
We humans have the anti-Midas touch. Everything we touch becomes tainted with sin! Denominations themselves are a good thing, but when sinners get a hold of them, that's when the troubles begin. The trouble with denominations isn't the denominations themselves, it's the people in them!!
One of the most beautiful sights I've seen is when folks get together across denominational lines in order to worship the Lord together. After all, that's what heaven is going to be like, isn't it? Don't think for a second that heaven is entirely populated with Methodists, or Eastern Orthodox, or Church of God, or Pentacostals, or whatever. Our weekly services at the assisted living center are like that too, a mixture of believers from many backgrounds. I'll ask, "What church did you used to go to?" They'll tell me Baptist, Catholic, or whatever, and I'll tell them I grew Presbyterian. And then we'll lose ourselves (and our denominations) in pure worship of the Lord, in spirit and in truth! That's real unity!
So no, I don't agree with the popular (and growing?) anti-denominationalism sentiment. I say the more denominations the better! Give us one for every believer, in fact. Then the diversity of believers will truly be represented! Just as long as we don't lose sight of the fact that there is one God who reigns over all of our different denominations! |
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Bubbles |
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February 27, 2008 at 5:30am |
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| AMEN! We are believers. Period. |
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| Here's a question. Have you recently worshiped at a church other than your own, in a denomination other than your own? (yes I consider non-denominational to be a denomination) Were you embraced or rejected? And better yet, did YOU embrace or reject?? |
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God is infinite, each denomination emphasizes a little something different about God's infinite truth.
and being true believers the truth will come out (LOVE) for all regardless of denomination. I agree with the personality fit of the denominations. But the truth shines thru for the true believer regardless of which church he/she may attend. The truth in the scriptures is the same regardless of the building that house you... It is not the denomination or the building, but the WORD OF GOD. |
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This is Great I have been to many denominational and non-denomination and never had a problem I go there to be with my brother and sisters in Christ and our Heavenly Father. Just like children in a family we all are different but belong to the same family and in Heaven we will just be children of God.
God Bless Your Brother in Christ,
Doyle |
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Cheryl |
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February 27, 2008 at 5:53am |
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Mike this is beautiful!!~ So true!! I was thinking about this last night as I washed dishes and how God loves variety. He is not a God of plain and boring things. Well look at all that He created!!! Look at the many faces in the world~wow, how beautiful (not in a worldly he is cute and she is hot way) in a way that God sees his creation, pure and lovingly. I too see denominations as such. What a blessing!
Another great one from our Father!~ |
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| Can't disagree w/you at all Mary...THANKS for sharing your thoughts!! I appreciate our unity! (btw, are you a Presbyterian too? ...lol just kidding!) |
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| I have actually enjoyed visiting churches of other denominations....I get a deep sense of unity with people who are different than me. It also gives me an opportunity to extend beyond myself (if that makes sense)...to get away from being "me", experiencing someone else's perspective...trouble describing it, but I would encourage us all not to shy away from doing it! |
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JayKTX |
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February 27, 2008 at 6:05am |
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Another example of your ability to think positively rather than negatively - which is not only a good thing - but a God thing! Jer. 29:11: all his thoughts toward us are good. I'm not sure nondenomination is a denomination for this reason: there's as much variety among the "nondenoms" as there is among the "denoms." Lots of different "streams" there. |
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| Thanks Janell! And in a way I agree w/you about the nondenoms. In our area, the "community churches" (of which we belong to one) have banded together rather loosely. The beginnings of yet another "denom"? |
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Doyle, great comment! Children are generally not the same (unless twins of course lol). Yet God loves them all, even celebrating their uniqueness. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. (1 Cor 12:4-6) |
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Hey Mike&Laura, Having worshpped in almost all possible denominations (I grew up as an anglican, accepted the Lord in a pentecostal church, grew in faith in brethern/evangelical churches. Now attending a charismatic church!! I have to agree with you that we are all unique, we are all special, we are all God's children. All denominations have their own biases and even attitudes etc. which can be termed 'unchristian' at times, they still form part of His Bride. I have enjoyed and learnt to worship the Lord in all kinds of worship services, from the loudest (heavy rock, grunge, metal worship) to a brethern worship (where the only instrument you hear is your vocal chords!). I can worship the Lord in Spirit in each of these places. It proves to me as you mentioned that it is the SAME Spirit. Amen! We serve a God who loves variety and loves in when His children worship in all the possible ways :) He is a creative GOd, we are called to be Creative children. :) Thanks for the blog! |
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| I agree there is a need for denominations and I agree that personality is involved in knowing where God wants you to worship. I believe that denominations also help us to identify what a particular church believes. There is false teaching and as a young Christian you need to know what an individual church represents and believes. Until you are grounded in the Word of God false teaching can easily mislead you. My prayer is that we as denominational people will unite together and stand for the teachings of Jesus Chist. |
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| We are in total agreement here! I actually think of the different denominations as different parts of Christ's body. Like Baptist I find are really strong in preaching the Gospel and meat and potatoes. Then there are denominations more into sending out missionaires, some into outreach. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. The problem with the whole thing is that we may think we are better than another denomination cuz we believe this and they don't, or they believe this, and we don't. I like the different flavors--that isn't what bothers God--what bothers God is our divisions due to our differences. Is Christ divided? There is one faith, one baptism, one Father who is in all and above all.....and I forget the rest, but you get the gist of it. GREAT blog, and I totally agree! I am happy in my church, and some aren't my 'flavor', but they are someone elses. we are all different. |
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| One Father AND God...I was just rereading that verse...lol |
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Hello Johns, wow that's quite a variety of experiences you've had. How excellent that you've witnessed unity through it all! Great observation too, God is spirit, the SAME spirit, wherever you worship!! Cheryl (from Ga) - I'm glad you mentioned that we need to be aware of specific doctrinal stances. While variety is good, false doctrines should never be accepted under the guise of variety. So we should all work towards being able to analyze doctrines and spot divergences from Scripture! Great points Lara! I really like your allusion to the body of Christ. How useless would Christ's body be if it was just a bunch of arms (no legs etc.). Thank you for sharing your valuable insights! |
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Donna S |
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February 27, 2008 at 9:18am |
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Amen!!>>>>The trouble with denominations isn't the denominations themselves, it's the people in them!!
I now go to a non denominational church. I Prayed on where to go onceI moved, being I have not been to church in like forever......
It is a Bible church, the pastor is from Baptist background.
I was rasied presbyterian, it was the people in the church i was rasied in and the one i went to when i got married, it was the people in the church that chased me away....
I was very welcomed to the church I attend now and I am going to speak with my pastor in a little while. I love tha it is bible based and open , yes I see the people who come who turn the other cheek....I am not there for them I am there to learn to grow and I love how the pastor gets the message across, as we studie out the bible.
Just my input and loved the post!!! thanks mike
God Bless
Donna |
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Deb |
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February 27, 2008 at 10:40am |
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We should love everyone, even those belonging to a different denomination. We will all be standing before the same God when our life here is over. In Heaven we will be one big denomination! |
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Gene |
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February 27, 2008 at 12:47pm |
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I was raised in one style of Lutheran church, joined a Christian commune while in college, moved to a non-denominational church, moved and joined another non-denominational church, attended an Assembly of God church, joined a charismatic Methodist church, house churched, and now attend a different style Lutheran church. Variety? yes! They are all unique and all fit specific needs in the Body. Paul says that whether we are of Apollos or Paul doesn't matter. Great blog, Mike, buddy.
Deb's right. In heaven we'll all be in the same church. |
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Steve |
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February 27, 2008 at 1:42pm |
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| A question: If one church cannot possibly have it all right, then why did God say there is only one body, spirit, hope, Lord, faith, baptism, God and Father? Eph. 4:4-6 Jesus himself prayed that all would be one. Doesn't it then stand to reason that all of us can believe the same way and worship God the same way? Can we all get to heaven by different paths? Very confusing. |
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Have only read down to this part: Here's a question. Have you recently worshiped at a church other than your own, in a denomination other than your own? (yes I consider non-denominational to be a denomination) Were you embraced or rejected? And better yet, did YOU embrace or reject??
Yes... I have recently worshipped at a church not my own... through obedience we do not go to church unless we are specifically led (it seems to be our calling) ... Not too long ago as a representative of those who work along side one another as a community of believers from various backgrounds, I was asked to speak about what Father is doing, at one of the local churches... "Feed My Sheep" The Spirit of the Lord Reaching Out through the Family of God
Was I embraced? To the glory of God... for the first time in the life of the one who invited me... a devoted member of 30 odd years, her Methodist Congregation clapped. The message was not about me... it was about what HE is doing... they did not know whether I went to church or not... nor did anyone take the time to ask, when we visited after. (I have a copy on tape.)
Yes I embraced them... having visited/read writings of ect, just about every type of denomination/non denomination there is, seeking discernment, His truth as I followed His leading, in my journey/desire to be a part of HIS true church/body who seek HIM as our head.... I have observed/experienced most of the truths you speak above. (further testimony of this can be found at www.EnterIntoGodsRest.com ).
The Spirit of the Lord revealed to us there is no one denomination who has the whole truth ... we each are a part of the whole walking in varying degrees of light and pollinate one another in spirit and in truth, according to His unfolding plan and the present truth needed. We each receive what is needed most in the moment... hense why one can reread/listen to a spiritual message and receive additional light... it is ever increasing... causing us to continually grow.
The Spirit of the Lord told my hubby and myself to go with HIS flow for our lives moment to moment ... mychurch.org for now, is one of the many places we see where we have the potential of spiritual fellowship... Koinonia. It seems to be a place where there are opportunities to meet the body and seekers of His truth and His love... and experience the reality of His Spirit and Kingdom living, in our now. Through His eyes of eternity... (something HE told me to receive) it seems to be I have been given eyes to see mychurch.org as one living example of Ekkessia... a spiritual gathering for HIS purpose and present truth of the moments for all sent here.
If I may offer: I don't pay any attention to what church someone comes from or not. Ones background does not offend me... I understand and hope to offer grace, what it is to struggle with the flesh and lose until His power overcomes ... I understand what it is to come out of darkness into HIS ever increasing light through HIS power alone... the more I come to know, the more I recognize I did not know; and how marvelous are His truths and ways, how great HE is.... and Who we are becoming as heirs of God through Christ.
4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Father thank You as One body... of One Spirit we can trust You to separate the lies from the truth... that we can face fear with the overcoming faith of Your Son.... knowing it is YOU who brings us through in unity, with the will to surrender to YOU and Your revealed truth. Thank You Jesus, as Your bride we have all we need... through grace we let go of all which would deceive and attempt to draw us away; and come to You with a trusting heart to harvest seeds of Father's love and truth and the power You offer, according to Father's eternal purpose moment to moment. Thank You for calling us.... for choosing us... for separating/sanctifying/reconciling us to receive Your love and truth as our reality, Father. Bless You for the gift of faith and miracles ... abiding love and wisdom with understanding! Bless You for causing us to be a body united through Your indwelling Spirit and the rising up of Your Kingdom; One through whom Your light shines .... Bless You for the grace which keeps us humble, through an inner awareness all is according to Your unfolding plan and astonishing love and truth. Bless You for the unity of faith and the knowledge of Your which is being poured out, in this fresh season with YOU... one which is perfecting us... bringing us to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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Amen Bren - great comment! I appreciated your writing this - "there is no one denomination who has the whole truth ... we each are a part of the whole walking in varying degrees of light"... I agree, in fact may have stated much the same in the blog.
You also said "I don't pay any attention to what church someone comes from". I DO, in fact one of the first questions I always ask someone when I discover they are a believer is "where do you go to church". It is a great conversation starter, and also gives me insight into their personality! Thanks for commenting, good to hear your perspective.
prstn496- Thanks for sharing your perspective too! You asked "Doesn't it then stand to reason that all of us can believe the same way and worship God the same way?" I would say no way! Quite apparently, there are Spirit-led believers in many different denominations, yet each expresses their belief in slightly different ways. I believe denominations merely emphasize different aspects of the same truth. This is not the same as different religions, however! Muslims, Budhists, Hindus do not acknowledge the same core beliefs as Christians - Christ as the risen Son of God, etc. So no, I'm not talking about different paths to heaven. Definitely not! |
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Deb, we will indeed be standing before the same God one day. And I definitely see folks in many different denominations worshiping that same God, the Lord Almighty! Gene, right on, thanks for sharing! You clearly have experienced a wide variety of expressions of the same faith! I like your point about "fitting specific needs in the Body".
Donna, I can't tell you how overjoyed I am seeing you find a "good fit". Praise God! I hope the Lord gives you the opportunities there to meet Body needs as well as your own personal needs. Sounds like you are definitely in the right place! |
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| I suppose your right; I'm not much of a universalist though. Some separations are small, but we do need to watch for tares. |
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Wait Dave! No one's asking anybody to become a universalist!!! And this isn't my attempt at ecumenism either! But it's a fact that there are more similarities of belief than differences when you compare the denominations of Christianity. Don't you tire of hearing people say "if Christianity is true, then how do we know who has it right...Methodists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal, etc....." THEY ALL HAVE IT RIGHT! But the key is each only has it partially right! Half a truth is not a lie! We shall only see him as he really is when we get to heaven!! We aren't there yet, so each of us is doing the best we can....if we're doing at all. 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. |
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Mike
I travel a lot, so when ever I get the opportunity to worship at other churches I do. It doesn't matter to me what denomination it is. I take Jesus every where I go... so I'm never at a lost in that respect. I love to experience the different forms of worship... and I often think, wow how would these people feel in my church.... we make a lot of noise... yadder, yadder.
The Lord our God is the God of denominations aka diversity.... don't ya just love it!
Pastor Aminata |
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I see your point, I'm just sort of cautious sometimes. My home Church is interdenominational. I kind of wish I had more time to visit my friends Churches. I'm only now learning how to listen to the Lord's voice and he's telling me to bloom where I'm planted. Personally I suspect the church landscape could change quickly, as we are being tempted to conform in certain areas.
I was sort of teasing you on my earlier comment. But I am cautious as a lot of New Age stuff tries to creep into our churches.
Blessings,
David |
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On the 8th day God created denominations and said that it was good. Right? Seriously though, I agree with you, that they have their place. They are not perfect, but Jesus said "I will build my church." and He uses all of us who love the Lord inspite of ourselves.
I can think of other kinds of denominations that are good too. 10s, 20s, and 100s. :) |
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Hey Dave, amen to both points of yours. Don't we all have to bloom where planted? Well, most of us anyway. I see it as difficult for church hoppers to bloom, b/c they're always seeking their own needs be met, at least that is how I see it (true or not). Also, right on about New Age influences. We can't be too careful about that.
Brother To.... lol. Seriously, I agree w/you too, they aren't perfect. But only God is, right? |
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Often, denominations are born in revival. Sadly, too often, they slide into survival.
I remember the early days of my christianity in an inter-city church that was denominational. Being a part of the Jesus Movement. Loving the mix of cultural, social, racial, and economic backgrounds. We were the Church. All of us.
And then GOD moved me from the inter-city and put me in rural Missouri. The phrase, the fields being white for the harvest, took on a whole new meaning. In the city many did not believe in GOD. Here, everybody "believed" in GOD. That really tripped me up for a while witnessing. But eventually I figured out that if someone said they believed in GOD that if I asked what GOD was doing in their lives it quickly became obvious those who believed in GOD and those who "believed".
Anyways, soon after getting here I was blessed with poverty. Living in a home without electricity for at least a year. Without electricity there wasn't anything to do out in the middle of nowhere at night except sleep...or hitchhike to revivals. I kept a journal during this time. In one year I visited over fifty different churches. It was a wonderful experience as I came to know the Church in this area. Sure, there were differences in worship styles. And doctrines. But what impressed me the most during this time was the same Jesus was at each of these places.
Eventually, I did join a church (denomination) after my second attempt to do so. The first, when I expressed my desire to join the church, I was told that if I joined I would have to quit visiting other churches. I could not do what GOD did not ask me to do. I continued to fellowship and love the brethren there until GOD placed me elsewhere.
I have found that if we look for fault with one another we will find it. If we look for ways to build one another up we will find that, too. I respect the beliefs of denominations. When I fellowship in a denomination different from mine I never push what I believe that may be different. How does that glorify Jesus? Or my brother or sister?
A stranger knocks on my door. I invite him in. We visit. He seems to be quite pleasant for awhile. But then he begins to tell me that my house is not as good as his house. That I need to make changes to my house so mine would look more like his. I listen politely. I sure was glad when he left.
Denominations are not the evidence that something is wrong with the Church but rather that something is right. It is not division but diversity. GOD loves diversity. If He did not, we would all look the same, feel the same, believe the same. But we do not by GOD's design.
GOD's design is not always painless. But it is always perfect.
.....peace.....
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| What is difference between denomination and anti ? Seem like if enough of the anti's band together they are a denomination all in thier own. Like Emo kid saying he does it just to be different, but then I look and see all his friends do the same... so he really not different. |
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Gordon, as always, your comments are very insightful and most appreciated. I enjoyed the tale of the "stranger", nice analogy.
"I have found that if we look for fault with one another we will find it. If we look for ways to build one another up we will find that, too." Great point! Too many of us see our differences as faults. I wonder if our differences will disappear when we reach heaven? I have the funniest feeling they won't!
Juan, funny. So eventually the majority is going around saying "we're different". lol |
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| Loved it! When we first got into the the ministry, it was in a Southern Baptist Church. Very traditional. I remember a little ole lady (bless her soul) She came up to me when we first started going there and asked me about if I was Baptist. I told her that I was raised Methodist. She said, well, we will make a Baptist out of you yet! We serve in a Non-Denominational church now, but whenever people ask me that little question...you know the one...Are you a Baptist, Methodist, etc...I just politely say, well, I am a Christian, I serve in a Non-Denominational Church. Thanks for asking! |
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Wow, a lot of good input here! It shows that God is moving us all to the mindset of "one body"
Anytime I move (which has been a lot) I start visiting Churches. My goal is to find the one that is truly seeking after the Father and the leading of the Spirit and to join them. I have called many denominations home. And yes, we have to watch out for those wolves in sheep's clothing always. One of my homes had some new age teaching creep in and I watched the Church crumble. It broke my heart. At the start of it I questioned them about it but was told that obviously I was not in touch with God's Spirit. |
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Ruth, that is indeed very sad. The fruit of the devil should be quite obvious, it seems the leadership there was completely taken in.
Nice to hear about your varied church experiences. I find it exciting to visit new churches (while traveling or whatever) and find the Spirit at work, in different ways than I'm accustomed to. Shows that the same Spirit is Lord of all... Variety and differences don't scare me, but they do make me think. Thanks for your comment!
Great to hear about your experiences too, Valarie. I love showing people whose identity is Baptist, or Catholic, or non-denominational, etc. that a former Presbyterian can adore and worship God every bit as joyously and live every bit as victoriously as they do! |
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Now I beseech you , brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement. Cor. 1:10
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chole, that there are contentions among you. Cor. 1:11.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul? (this requires a negative answer) Cor. 1:13
I thank God I was baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Cor. 1:14
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Cor 1:19
Where are the wise? where are the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? Cor. 1:20
Who is your scribe? Is it you? Do you know better than God? The Father says not to be divided. But you say it is good! A little lack of knowledge will get you nowhere. I hope you readjust with this truth. You may choose to rearrange God's Holy word all you want. But he is watching. take heed and learn. Do it God's way. Not the way you like it. Check it out in God's word. Not man's. Or yours! I write to help. Yet, many will say I want to seam right. No, it is only God who is right. I am not him. But, I happen to know it!! |
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| Golden, unless every Christian in the world could meet under one roof, we'll always be "divided", until we get to heaven that is. Now we can each sit in our own house, picking apart all the other believers who aren't in our "house", or we can celebrate the real unity we share (worldwide), that of the Holy Spirit. I will choose to overlook our minor differences, will you? |
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| I have no differances with those who love the Lord. If I am outspoken at times. It is because of my pashion for His Word. This can be mistaken in many ways. But I mean well to all. God bless!! |
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| I have been baptized so many times, I don't know if the wrinkles will ever come out (lol). When we were young, my mom moved around alot, and whenever she found a church she liked, they always wanted to baptize ya into their church, I do too like the diversity of the body, but demon-nations (oops sorry) denominations, always upset me with saying their way was the way to get to heaven, although I have to say, I have seen a shift of a more tolerant and welcoming spirit as of late. We stayed out of the religious groups for about 11 years, as the Lord worked all of the different theologies and traditions out of us. Just recently have we started going back. |
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| Gary, thanks for sharing your perspective. I enjoyed reading it!! |
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Cheryl |
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April 01, 2008 at 8:09am |
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What a blessing....just popping my head in to catch-up on the read....diversity in denominations is wonderful; division in the body of believers as Christians is not of God. Unity is of God. As Deb said, we will all be together in heaven...can't wait! How Wonderful!
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Gene |
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April 01, 2008 at 4:36pm |
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Gary points out a major wrinkle (pun intended) in the differences in denominations. while many denominations accept people from other backgrounds and recognize their faith and belief in Christ, they differ on the amount of "extras" that are needed to be "right" by that denomination. Some require certain words to be uttered at baptism and some consider infant baptism to be worthless. Some condone same-sex relationships and others condemn it.
Moving from one group to another to be identified with it is not the same as being recognized by it as a fellow worker in the Kingdom of God. There are differences because we are imperfect and we each like things a certain way. There are on the other hand certain aspects of the act of idenitifaction with Christ taht are universal ("catholic" - to use the Latin coined term). It means that there are aspects to Christianity that go beyond individual groups and collectives. THAT is the Body of Christ.
I'm sure Dennis and I will disagree on certain things. It's the same with Gary and the same with you, Mike. (You too Cheryl) I still consider each a brother (or sister) in Christ! But that isn't the point.
What denominations do that is good is bring a richness to our understanding about aspects of Christian life. We are not all the same. We do not all think alike. We do not even all use the same words for the Lord's Prayer. But I learn a great deal from listening and hearing what others have to say and how they practice the Christian faith. My spiritual walk is improved in being able to think about what God brings to us in different ways. he is marvelous in variety and diversity and we should be thankful for it.
OK, soap box - down. . . |
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Gene, that's a marvelous summation of how our differences, apparent when you consider our denominational backgrounds, do not matter one bit at the foot of the cross. There is incredible diversity in the kingdom of God, and it takes a mature believer to accept that and actually feel comfortable with it. It also takes a mature believer to recognize that their denomination (or independent congregation, if non-denominational) does NOT have all the answers!! (ooh, this is a hard one!)
Again, great comment Gene! Thanks for hangin around! |
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| I wonder when we get to Heaven if there are going to be neighborhoods of denominations? That would be funny wouldn't it? I thank God for Martin Luther because the church has been reforming itself through the ages. But the important thing to remember is that there is 1 Lord, 1 Faith, 1 baptism. & 1 million denominations! |
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| Amen! Exceelent post, Mike! |
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Rob |
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April 05, 2008 at 3:58pm |
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Mike,
What do you do with denominations that deny the finished work of Jesus? What fellowship should I have with these people?
I'm not just grinding my gears here. I must agree with Golden's initial comment. This is an important question. Each denomination differs in its formula for "getting right with God". The majority of the New Testament is dedicated to keeping the simple gospel of faith righteousness just that - simple.
Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, believe in Jesus but they believe He was an angel. Jesus said, "If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins." (Jn. 8:24) Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus is the great I AM (lit. Jehovah).
Some of the ancients believed that Jesus did not really come in the flesh. They believed He was an angel in the form of a man. The apostle John said:
1:7For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, `even' they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. How much fellowship should we have with the antichrist? Lifting holy hands with antichrists... I don't know...
How much religious gobblety-gook should we endure in the name of diversity? Unity for unity's sake seems a little foolish. But maybe that's not what you're espousing. You did seem to draw the line at "New Age" - whatever that is. Could "New Age" be defined as anything that I find religiously objectionable?
It seems to me that the apostle Paul tried to "patch things up" with the apostle James in Acts 21+. That didn't turn out so well. Paul's ministry had been financially supporting the socialist church in Jerusalem and all he got for his efforts was a flogging or two, a few years in prison, and a death-defying trip to Rome. After spending two years under house arrest in Rome, the story abruptly stops and nothing more is said about what Paul did after that. Maybe he went back to Jerusalem and made nice-nice with James again - wuddya think?
Somehow, in my warped world-view, I can't see Paul and James ever quite reconciling after that little stunt. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.
There is diversity within the church (the bride of Christ) but you can't lump everybody who wears Jesus' name into the same batch. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. According to the word I read, that's not a good thing.
Rob |
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Rob, I would agree, not everyone who claims the name of Jesus is necessarily saved. Most (including me) would differentiate between the so-called mainline denominations and cults. You and I both know the JWs are considered a denomination by....no one. I would also be hesitant to agree with this: Each denomination differs in its formula for "getting right with God". The differences between Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentacostals (etc.), though important, is likely cosmetic. The basic formula for "getting right with God" is still the same between them: believe with your heart and confess w/your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Rob, I respect your opinion and thank you for your comments! |
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Rob |
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April 05, 2008 at 5:40pm |
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Oh, come on, Mike. If you throw out the Jo-ho's because they don't pass your denominational smell test then I'd like to discard the Roman Catholic Church as well. Do you think anybody considers Catholics a denom?
Catholics venerate Mary as much as (and sometimes more than) Jesus Christ Himself. Trust me on this, I was raised Catholic. And if we throw away Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics as worthy contenders for our denominational love affair (Don't you just hate me?) then we could probably lump a few Messianics in there too. Messianics (at least all the one's I've listened to) are caught up in keeping all kinds of kosher (dietary) laws, festivals, new moons, and sabbath days. They're doing it to make God happy with them (presumably so He doesn't get mad at them).
You want to include Pentecostals but some of them are really scary. I was part of an Assembly of God that had some Spiritual Warfare folks in it. They talked about "multi-tenticaled leviathans" - spiritual beings - that lived in the Ohio River. We had a prayer meeting one Friday to pray that thing out of there. What a waste of time!
I know; let's all make a list, shall we? Let's name all the demoninations that are worthy of inclusion in our fellowship. Mike thinks Methodists, Presbyterians, and Pentecostals are good enough. I'd like to include Lutherans and Baptists as well. Keep those church of Christ people away from me, though.
Just teasing,
Rob |
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Rob, I don't "throw out" anyone, nor do I include anyone. I have no power over who constitutes the Church. I have no desire to decide on who constitutes the Church, either. Smarter men than I have wrestled with that over the ages. For the sake of my blog, I'll use the Nicene Creed as a determinant of what is a "Christian denomination" vs. what may be considered a cult. The website "Creeds of Christendom" stated this, which I found interesting: The Nicene Creed is the most ecumenical of creeds. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) joins with Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and most Protestant churches in affirming it.
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Rob |
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April 06, 2008 at 9:45am |
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Alright, sir. Let's start with the Nicene Creed. I copied this text from www.creeds.net:
"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth..."
The Father is the creator? What does the scripture say?
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Is the "him" in the above passage referring to God the Father or God the Son? 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: All things were made by him and for him. Are you sure we should go by the Nicene Creed? My bible t | |
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