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| Easter Inactivity - Please Look at the videos at the bottom of the comments |
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If God is in complete control of the believer why aren't we doing more? The people that I have met who are strong supporters of this doctrine, do nothing against some of the greatest needs in society. Why? ...and are they placing the blame on God? I remember this story from James 2, "if a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" Where in this example does it say, God has to move you to do it? Give you a special sign or something before you can do it? It doesn't. You and I can move against any evil we see, without some special sign from God. The Spirit is in us and He should give us discernment about what is evil and what is not. And when it is evil, let's do something about it. Many of us might be in for a shock (myself included), when we get to Heaven and God asks, why didn't you do something about x,y and z? "Well Lord, I was waiting for You to give me a sign." |
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| To add a comment to "Easter Inactivity - Please Look at the videos at the bottom of the comments" |
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| March 16, 2008 |
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R,
Let me start out by saying a big Amen to that, okay?
God has given us desires to do different things. Here's what I mean: Not every ministry is EVERYBODY'S ministry. For example, I was going to a mission church where real sinners were being really saved from their sin. I thought to myself, "At last! I'm home! I found my peeps!"
What I failed to notice was the extreme control the pastor had over his flock. I wanted to go there and fellowship with them on occasion (2- or 3-times a week) but the assistant pastor let me know in no uncertain terms that I should not go to any other "church" activity that was not associated with the mission.
Needless to say, I left there and never came back. I enjoy studying the bible with my friends in another city - close by. According to the "By-Laws of the Church" if I attended any other church function, I was not acting "under authority" (whatever that means).
Simply put, if I wanted to go to that church, I had to adopt their mission 100% (i.e. to the exclusion of what I felt otherwise called to do). I don't know much about the bible, but I know about the psychology of control.
Jesus told us that in the kingdom of God, we were not to try and exercise authority (control) over one another yet some churches use control as a matter of course.
My ministry is not your ministry is not Gene's ministry. For we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph 2:10). God works within us to to give us the will and then to do, according to his good pleasure (see Php 2:13).
Certainly inaction is not optimal all the time but sometimes we should wait and NOT act. Look at all the nice trouble Abraham and Sarah caused by "taking action" to help out God. Thanks to their "taking action" we are out a couple of skyscrapers in New York. If God needs us to chill for awhile, we need to chill.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob |
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| March 17, 2008 |
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Here's another saying that I'm reminded of:
God isn't as concerned about what He can do through you as He is about what He can do in you and with you. God just wants to have fun. If you were a loving God, wouldn't you too?
http://www.hasanyonetoldyou.com/
We're not of value because we do God's will. We do God's will because are of value to Him.
We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
Rob |
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| March 17, 2008 |
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Hey Robert! I have to say Amen brother! I don't need a sign...If I see a need, I try to take care of it or I try to find someone that can. Sometimes I am not able to do it myself for different reasons, but I will try to find some way to see to it that the need is met. God will put those things on your heart. It's a tug, it's a pull, the Christian will feel that feeling inside. How can that be ignored? I've seen it ignored, that's for sure....but I don't understand how it can be.
Good post! |
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| March 17, 2008 |
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Rob: The Lord makes different ministries for different needs, I know a lot of people that had come in to the fold, that HAD to have control over them, because of where their lives came from, for example a lot of the drug addicts and alcoholics that the Lord has redeemed, had to have a strict control over their lives to keep them from sliding back into their old lives.
So amen to "Not every ministry is EVERYBODY'S ministry" |
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| March 17, 2008 |
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Exactly. And I, myself have had to observe certain "forced restrictions" as a result of a criminal conviction. It definitely has its place.
The "mission" had loads of people getting radically saved and I wanted to talk to them about how good God is but all they were getting from the pulpit is what they had to do to make God happy with them - or whatever. I know God better than that.
Obviously God wants us to live "the good life". He doesn't want us ruining our health, relationships, self-image, etc. with sex, drugs, and alcohol. He wants us to live the good life. To me, it seemed counter productive to talk about how austere and difficult God wanted your life to be - but I wasn't battling heroine addiction. To me, being saved from my sins means, I don't have to do those things that used to destroy my life anymore. To others, being saved from your sins means a rigorously following of the rules in order to stay in God's good graces. Both belief systems result in a "cleaned up life". One is grateful for his freedom the other is under the condemnation of law.
And THAT'S why church is so destructive.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob |
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| March 18, 2008 |
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Hey, I haven’t read all of these. So in advance if you took the time to write me, I will try and comment to you, but it might be a bit. The one I did read was by Rob so I do want to make a comment about that. At Denver Bible Church the Pastor and many in the congregation are pro-life activists. Being around them has lead my wife and I to be more active also. Now did they do what you shared? Strict laws saying you must do this? No. Am I saying this? No. Let me take off with one thing you wrote, “God works within us to give us the will and then to do, according to his good pleasure (see Phil 2:13).” Give us the will? To some this may have many meanings, but any way that I try to read it... it comes down to this, it still seems to place the blame on God for inactivity? This is what it makes me think about and to pose this question, “just how strong does this mental or physical thing need to be, before the person will act?” Here is maybe something new to think about, but could any of us do anything we wanted against any known evil with God’s blessing? I think yes. Yet many are waiting for some kind of extra physical or mental thing to happen before they do, and the teaching and belief is widespread, so many do nothing but wait. Does God need to give us some special will in our will-er or could we just go against any known evil? Me? Yes. |
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| March 18, 2008 |
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Obviously, if anyone desires to do something - ANYTHING for God, I'm in no position to "judge another man's servant". But neither are you - or anybody else.
Personal motivation to do or not to do is none of our business. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans one way or another. One's relationship with God will have its results. If that means I should campaign for Hillary Clinton or spend my days in prayer for the saints is not anybody's business but mine and God's. Minding our own business is something we're encouraged to do (see 1 Thes 4:11 NIV).
I may judge one man's observance as anemic or insincere but that's all it is - my judgment. When I judge another man's servant like that, it doesn't serve me well. In fact, it actually damages me. Jesus was no fool. Judging one another - or even ourselves - ultimately hurts us.
Now, if I'm not "performing" because I want to blame God, which, after all, is the topic of your post, then my lack of performance is the least of my problems. The real problem is my blaming God. If I'm blaming God, I have to ask, "Where is that coming from?"
The bible doesn't say that God "needs" to give us some special will in our will-er, it just says He does (see Php 2:13, Gal 5:17, et al).
Rob |
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| March 18, 2008 |
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Can I be frank, R?
It sounds like you have someone specific in mind. It might be someone from work or someone from church but it's evident that you're a little miffed because someone will not do what you have judged they should be doing.
There is a GREAT book called "Boundaries". Pick it up at the Christian Bookstore (or Amazon). It will help you have value for people because they are people and not because they do what you think they should be doing. You'll feel better about yourself and them too.
Just an observation,
Rob |
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| March 19, 2008 |
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Hi Valarie and Mike & Laura,
Thank you for your star and thank you Valarie for the comment.
====================================================
Here's to Rob. Hey Rob, I'm not sure why you are reading more into what I'm writing, but let me try again. Primary point: People don't need to wait on God to give them a special feeling to do something against known evils. Primary observation: People are waiting on God and part of the reason they do is they think God will give them some special feeling. That's the thrust of this article with no person in mind, but it is directed toward all believers. And what does Paul tell Timothy to tell the people who are basking in thier riches (taking it easy)? "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; and that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate... (1 Tim.6:17,18)." What has happened is people don't focus on doing, that's to negative, that's works, that's legalistic. So they focus on not doing because that's easier, it's less costly (money-wise), and it is certainly less confrontational. Now here is a new question, "will you hear this message in the Church?" No. Why? If I am the Pastor and/or under the authority of the ruling members, this message they believe will drive people away from the Church and you don't want that to happen because you will not be able to pay the bills, so they avoid this like the plague. And while they do? The public and lay people are condtioned to do nothing, against known evils in their communities. But at this point here is my stance: I would rather have a pile of wood, hay and stubble on the day we stand before our God and King, than I would to have nothing. I'd rather risk trying to do something and then have God show me, I should not be involved, than to do nothing and find out He couldn't do enough to get me going. |
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| March 19, 2008 |
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To your point, the public and laity are conditioned to do nothing against known evils, not only in their communities but in their own lives as well. How many flat-broke Christians need to hear a message of hope and prosperity in Jesus? How many sick and dying Christians need to hear that Jesus physically as well as spiritually healed all our diseases? You and I are singing different songs out of the same hymnal.
It seems like you're convinced that a message of power is purposely suppressed because there's too much money at risk of being lost by taking a stand for what is right. I'm convinced of a different truth; you can't teach what you don't know.
People will fight against what they perceive to be evil. We judge what's good and what's evil by how it makes us feel. We stole this "gift" from the Garden of Eden, remember? That little "godlike" ability has haunted all of us from day one.
So you rail against inactivity in the church. I rail against unbelief in the church. We're both in good company. James the Just railed against inactivity and Saul of Tarsus railed against unbelief. We're not far from the kingdom of heaven ;)
We both wear our offense as a badge too, R. Admit it. Why can't people be as holy as I am? Why am I the only one "doing" or "believing" what God wants? We're SO disgustingly self-righteous, aren't we? But... what're ya gonna do, ya know?
We are not justified by what we do BUT we do lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven by making investments in good works. The Judgment Seat of Christ doesn't determine whether we are saved - that's already a done deal, but it will determine who receives what reward in heaven. You quoted a great scripture verse in 1 Timothy.
Another point I want to make for you is this: Anyone who is waiting for God to give them something that He hasn't already given them in Jesus is in unbelief - not inactivity. If you get the heart straightened out in the "belief department" the works will follow. It's the old cart-before-the-horse scenario.
People can do (i.e. take action) based on fear or they can do based on love. On the outside, action is being taken but what's going on inside? The Lord loveth a cheerful giver. I can give out of duty or compulsion but what have I gained? Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but... You know the rest.
By the same token, people can be inactive out of fear too. They might be afraid of how they'll look. They may "love God" but they don't want to show it because it might look like they're "bringing attention to themselves". Fear is very "Me" based.
So, in this sense, "waiting on the Lord" could be just laziness or, depending on the person, it could be genuine. Only God can judge the heart. Action or inaction can be based on love or it can be based on fear.
Now here's a little dig for you, okay? This post may be an attempt to call attention to all the "good things" you are doing for God or it could be coming from a different motivation. I'll leave that between you and God :)
Sorry. I couldn't help myself...
Love,
Rob |
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| March 19, 2008 |
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Hey paul deluc...
I'm not sure I understand your comment, but I do have a question. From the efforts primarily by members of Denver Bible Church, they have saved and helped 100 children a year from being murdered since abortion began -(it began in Denver).
Now, did God do that (save the hundred a year), or did the people from Denver Bible have something to do with it? - If there would have been fewer people, going daily to Planned Parenthood, would fewer children been saved? Probably. So is this God's doing or His people?
Why ask this? My answer: it is reasonable to assume that if we had more people on the frontlines, there would be more saved. It has little to do with God, it has to do with His people. His people obeying Him "to go into all the world, to occupy until I come and to resist evil.
God has given mankind free-will and He is not going to take that away until the end. Why doesn't He stop abortion, because He is waiting for His people to do that.
One hundred a year for 30 years is okay, but 40 million dead is a long way from victory, and it's up to His people. So, I was inspired to write and tell people they don't have to wait for some special feeling they can get up right now and stand against any known evil there is and God will bless them for it. And if they don't get up, like they are doing? How can He bless that? |
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| March 19, 2008 |
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Hey Guys... Tamara T.
Newcomer to the conversation. Here's my take on the whole "to help or not to help" enigma. Whatever instruction or wisdom we need to help us decide whether or not to lend a helping hand or stand stagnate in selfishness rests in these words. "In as much as you have done this to the least of these you have done it to me." These are the words of the Lord and master we claim to give our loyalty to. You want to know if we should leave the safety of our lives and reach out beyond the narrow scope of our exisistence....There's your answer.
While I'm at...let's tackle the "controlling pastor's" issue. Do you mind? No? Great!
I don't know you Rob or what your ministry is but it seems to me that your view of the pastorate at the Mission could possibly be a bit skewed. Has it ever occured to you that the Mission sees itself as a place of protection for the people that come in? Think about. You yourself said that these were "real sinners"...(as opposed to the faux sinner wannabes) If they are addicts and abusers, they need structure and boundaries as well as an uncompromising leader, who makes it there personally mission to make sure that the sin that once enslaved them enslaves them no more. That takes dedication, committment, and loyalty to the cause of Christ. They have to make sure that the people that come to them have a place to be ROOTED and GROUNDED. (Since wandering about aimlessly in life is probably what got the "real sinners" into their "real sin" in the first place.) Sometimes a stringent lifestyle is the best therapy for someone who lacks self-control...You know...like an addict.
In short... get off it, get over it, and Move On. So it's not a place for you. We get it. Let's not bash the mission for doing what they do |
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| March 20, 2008 |
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Honestly, R, the mission was a brief interlude in my foray back into churchianity. I agree that addicts and prostitutes and sinners may need artificial restrictions on them. On the other hand, the only artificial boundaries Jesus ever gave them were grace to overcome and "Go and sin no more. Thy faith has healed thee". Jesus wasn't much for "aftercare".
Be that as it may...
I've got no argument with the mission. They are doing a great work. I've always said that. But before one can erect one's own boundary, you have to know where you stop and the other person begins. The mission wasn't real good at doing that. I was unsuitable for the brand of "gospel" they were teaching.
In a previous life, I had been in a very controlling ministry (I think they call it a cult). So when the associate pastor at the mission told me that I was not permitted to go to my bible study in Middletown or the Baptist church for Wednesday Night bible study / prayer meeting, I got the same feeling in my gut.
Healthy boundaries are appropriate. Controllers are controllers. I don't care whether they call it "walking in authority" or what they call it, Jesus said, "but among you it shall not be so" (see Mt 20:26, Mk 10:43, Lk 22:26). I don't have anything against the mission's ministry but I do have issues with controllers. I love saved sinners because they have such a rich testimony but I love myself more. We shouldn't have to comply with the whim of a co-dependent controller in order to have fellowship, wouldn't you agree?
Different controllers, however, use different tactics. The method of control that I'm used to was not as overt as the mission - it was much more subtle. The method of control I'm used to is the one that makes you feel guilty for not performing:
"How many people did you invite to church this week?"
"I read my bible and prayed for an hour this morning but I need to start waking up an hour earlier so I can spend two hours"
"We missed you on Sunday night. Don't you think it's important to fellowship with the saints?"
And now, when I read this blog, all I see is,
"Why aren't more Christians out there on the front-lines like me?"
"See how much good I'm doing?"
"God isn't leading me to do this emotionally, I'm just good enough and smart enough and ambitious enough to 'Just Do It'!"
"So what's wrong with these other slugs?"
That's not entirely what you wrote but it's pretty close.
So you see, I have "moved on". There was a time when I was deceived by pious braggarts. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I thought as a child, and I had my boundaries violated like an ignorant child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Rob |
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| March 20, 2008 |
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Hey Tamara Tucker, That was a great reply. You articulated that excelently. Thank you for commenting over here.
+++++++++++++
...and hey Rob, I'm sending you a note, quite a bit off topic, but look at your messages anyways. Thanks. |
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| March 20, 2008 |
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Oops! Wow! My bad! Is MY face red!
That reply was from Tamara and I thought it was from R. I apologize, R. I should learn to read before I start typing. Should I delete that stuff or what? Tell me and I will (or you can).
I'd like an opportunity to make amends. What do you say? You wanna come over to my blog and rag on me for awhile? It's cool. I can take it.
Sorry,
Rob |
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| March 21, 2008 |
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Happy Easter again! Here is another video that I think of at this Eastertide. The lady in the lean-to (am I spelling that right?), reminds me of Mary in the manger. All I know is, "Thank you God for sending your Son and Thank you Mary for not aborting Him." Like some of the people in this video, that child might be a burden on their back, but that child makes their life just a little bit more worth living. Life is the right choice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuJz4k43Zy4 |
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| March 28, 2008 |
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| To add to what I commented on your comment in my blog, as I have read some of the comments here, here is mine :) Could it be that some people don't obey God when He tells them to do something? I said in my blog that common sense should stimulate us to step in when there is evil...the fact of the matter is that many people are afraid, and maybe God is telling them to DO and they DO NOT. Obedience to what we should do, what God calls us to do in the bible, is not easy to follow, and some just don't want to put forth the effort. That is my two cents worth, and that is about all it is worth. |
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| April 13, 2008 |
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Hey Deb,
And I would add, fear is a big obstacle, for most people (me sometimes too). Maybe if we all had a mentor, someone who would take us by the hand and show us the ropes, we would probably be more willing to go. However, some heros have admitted, "I'm not a brave person really. But when I realized no one else would do what needed to be done, I just jumped in."
Maybe that's all it takes? Just realizing no one else is going to do it and caring enough that it needs to be done, that will prompt us to act. If it were our own child, if it were our own house, if it were my own family... maybe then I'd do something. |
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