A day? Where is that in the New Testament please? In the Old Testament people were commanded to take a particular day each week for bodily rest. However, that did not solve the dilemma of rest for the soul. Mental, emotional and spiritual rest can certainly be aided by bodily rest, but that is not the whole answer.

There is only one command in the entire New Testament regarding rest. Neither Jesus nor his disciples commanded any particular day of the week, Saturday or Sunday. Instead, Jesus said, come to me all you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. What kind of rest was he talking about. He spoke of the kind of rest that a physical day off or even meticulous religious regulations (such as strict Sabbath observance) cannot give, rest for our souls. Rest for our souls is not available in a day and certainly not in burdensome man-made religious rules. It is only available in a person. If we want rest for our souls, we must come to Jesus!

The New Testament mentions no Sabbath day in the form of a "thou shalt" or command at all. It matter of factly reports Jesus or Paul going into a Synagogue on that day, but never commands it for Christians. It also matter of factly reports certain activities that could be related to Sunday worship, but never commands that day for Christians either.

Is bodily rest good? Absolutely! Is it mandated in order to maintain your status as a saved Christian? Nowhere! The only Sabbath that is mandated in the entirety of the New Testament is our rest in Christ now and for eternity (Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4).

Grant,

Paul teaches that we are saved by grace, not by following Moses Law,  and James expounds on this by stating that our relationship with the Lord is more than faith, he states that faith without works (fruits) is dead. Basically if you "say" you have faith, but your fruits are rotten, then you are a liar.

So if you want to throw out the book of James, as by your tone.......because you don't understand his principles, is a mistake.

as to the chapters in Hebrews, I see what you mean, if you take it out of context, as to an era, this is a theology of error, for it is not in the Word of the Lord, but is in dis-obedience to His Word. He is the Lord of the Sabbath. This saying of Christ never states that we no longer observe the Sabbath, but He stated that the ruling Jews were white-washing their own lives, while their hearts were on their power over people by intimidation, instead of on the Lord in service. When He died on the cross, He fulfilled all of the LAW of Moses, but the Commandments are still in force. 

The Commandments were never to be a list of do's and don'ts, but rather a guide line of our love, just as in a marriage, if you loved your wife, you would WANT to do the do's and don'ts

I WANT to not have any other gods beside my G-D

I WANT to not bow down before any idol, or have any graven image.

I WANT to  not use my Lord's name in vain.

I WANT to a day of rest and dedicate my self to Him on that day. 

I WANT to honor my mother and father.

I WANT to not murder, or even hate my brother.

I WANT to not have an affair, or even look on another woman with lust.

I WANT to not steal.

I WANT  to not tell a lie about my neighbor.

Will I fail these, of course I will, I am born in sin, but by His grace, I have been forgiven. All I have to do is ask for His forgiveness, and turn from doing it again.  

It is when we continue in our sins, and get a calloused heart, and refuse to listed to the Holy Ghost working on our consciousness, that He will turn us to our reprobate minds, and thus allowing Satan have is work in us, unto death (physical and spiritual) 

No as to your comment at the beginning, why do you allow the enemy to work through you in such condescending language. 

Gary,

You just did what I always do.  I'm glad it's not just me :)

You replied to my reply and not to Grant's.  Grant's post is much less abrasive.  He's a pretty great guy - I'm a little less so.

Regarding "throwing out the book of James": I think that would be unfortunate.  Martin Luther wanted to throw it out because it is such a faithless tome but I think it's good to have both sides represented.

Where did God say, "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil".  God is all about choices.  So I think it's healthy to have the book of James in the bible.  It's a true representation of James' Nazarite theology.

Be that as it may...

In your reply (above) you said, "This saying of Christ never states that we no longer observe the Sabbath..."  I agree.

In my reply (above) I said, "The people who believe that [Jesus' perfect sacrifice saved us from 'works righteousness'] are the only ones who are 'keeping the Sabbath'".  Keeping the Sabbath is the goal.  Which one is doing it?

According to the book of Hebrews, this "Sabbath rest for the people of God" is reserved for only those who believe that Jesus blotted out that handwriting of ordinances, nailed it to the cross, and took it out of the way.  We don't have to "celebrate the Sabbath Day" as a day of the week anymore because, thanks to Jesus, the Sabbath Day is EVERYDAY, bless God!   But only if you believe it.  If you don't believe it, then for you it is not a reality and you must revert back to the old code.  It's that simple.  I can't state it any clearer than that.

Jesus gives us whatever we wish (John 15:7).  If you wish to observe the Law then go, go, go.  If, on the other hand, you believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law (Torah or whatever they're calling it) then that's a valid lifestyle as well.  The question is, which lifestyle is "of faith" and which is "of works"?

That's a judgment call that each individual has to make for him/herself.

Or so it seems to me,
Rob

In the same chapter, just a few verses down, He also says:

Notice how when Moses was describing the beginning of everything he carefully punctuated his account with the repeated phrase, "and the evening and the morning were the -----day"

However, nothing marks the end or the conclusion of the seventh day! The Sabbath has never ended.

God created all the provisions necessary for mankind before He placed man on the earth. All Adam had to do was walk in those provisions. Everything he needed was readily available to, and created specifically for him. Adam entered into the seventh day with nothing to do but rest.

God's invitation to enter into the Sabbath rest did not end with creation, nor was it intended for Israel alone.

The Sabbath is not a day. It's a relationship!

Is there a scriptural basis for for this though, or is this an interpretation?

All through the Bible, they are instructed to rest the 7th day, including the New Testament.  He says it was to be perpetual (everlasting).

I understand that it is a shadow of things to come, but the last part, you said is now come, this scripture does not say that. It just says: Which are a shadow of things to come

I am still studying this, so I am still trying to figure this out myself, just trying to apply scripture to my life. I "think" we should, but myself have not fully committed to it yet. 

I know in scripture, Israel was punished repeatedly for not following the Sabbath, including being exiled to Babylon.

Gary,

Until you come to the understanding that the sacrifice and person of Jesus changed everything you will continue to have these kinds of questions.  Here it is, more than a year later and you're still halting between two opinions.

When Jesus died on the cross, His last will and testament kicked in.  You cannot read the book of Hebrews and still have a question in your mind whether the Old Testament has come to an end.  Now, while the Old Testament is not binding on us today, every word of the Law are still in place.

The book of Hebrews told us why there could be no deviation from the commandments of God.

For mankind to recognize who Jesus was and what He was up to, we had to have this "schoolmaster" to teach us what to look for.

If you cannot bring yourself to draw a thick black line between to Old and the New Covenants then no amount of studying, debating, or praying about it is going to resolve the issue.

Hebrews 3 forever interprets Psalm 95.

Verse 10 says, "Forty years long was I grieved with this generation..."  Remember that God wanted to kill them all because they didn't believe Him for success against their enemy in Canaan.  As a compromise, God repented of the evil thing He wanted to do and even provided for them while they wandered the wilderness.  But the bible says He was grieved with them the whole time. (As an aside, the New American Standard Bible translates verse 10 as follows:  "For forty years I loathed that generation...")

You kinda have to know the story about Caleb, Joshua, and the ten other spies that Moses sent into the Promised Land.  Joshua and Caleb were the only two spies who believed God and who said, "We can take 'em!"  The rest of the spies said that the Israelites were like grasshoppers compared to the giants who lived in that land.  Instead of believing God for success, the Israelite nation turned back in fear - fear being the opposite of faith.  Joshua and Caleb considered the value of the reward.  The others considered the strength of the enemy.  Both considerations were true.  Both were real.  God loved one but loathed the other.

David, hundreds of years later, reveals that God kept them in the wilderness because they did not believe Him when He said that He would give them the Promised Land of rest.  This is key because the Hebrew writer is coming to the same conclusion Paul came to.  God is pleased when we believe Him and displeased when we don't.

If you recall the story, some of the Israelites repented, formed an army and went up against the Canaanites and were all killed.  The Israelites wanted to believe God and they paid the ultimate price to prove they believed Him but God was not pleased with them either.  They thought that if they worked real hard, they could obtain the rest God promised.  This has such HUGE application to us today it ain't funny.

So, each of us has to decide where we stand.  Joshua and Caleb were excited that God had given such a great prize to them.  The majority of the other spies were intimidated by the opposition.  Joshua and Caleb believed God and entered into God's rest (the Promised Land) - forty years later.  The rest died in the wilderness.

People who are wondering whether we should keep the Sabbath Day have not entered into the Sabbath rest of God.  Most Christians are not disciples of Jesus, they are disciples of Moses.  Sabbath keeping is the keeping of carnal commandments.  Most Christians are carnal - not because they openly give themselves to gross sin but because they think God is served through carnal means.

Read Hebrews and when you're done, read it again.  If you still have this question then take a vacation.  Leave church for awhile.  Do not do anything because you have to.  Take your relationship with God to an easy place.  Have a beer with Him or whatever you have to do to break this spell, Gary.

Dude, you got the Holy Ghost.  Your a babbling Pentecostal.  Kick back with God and chill out.  Go with Him to the mall and just walk around together.  For about a week, try this on: God wants your heart more than He wants your works.  Become convinced that God is more concerned with what He can do in you than what He can do through you.

Sincerely,
Rob

So, if I go down to the local Budda shop, pick up a Budda, and start praying to it, the Lord won't mind, because I trust Him?

If I curse my mom and dad, and have no respect for them, the Lord will not mind, because I beleive in Him too?

If I curse the Lord, He won't mind?

 If I come into your house and kill your family, the Lord will not care?

If I go out and have sex with another man's wife, the Lord will still be happy with me?

If I cheat my customers out of their money, the Lord is pleased with me?

If I tell other people that you are a closet homosexual , the Father is ok with that?

 If Imake plans to take your home and other possession from you, because you have more than me, the Lord would be so happy with me.

If I don't rest on the Sabbath, and take the day to rest in Him, He is happy with me? 

ok, but you did not answer the other question: inless your answer is :

Do whatever blows your hair back

in that case, you are saying God is now lawless, in Chaos?

ok, I was re-reading you post more closly, I see what you are saying about the other issues....kind of....

here is what I am trying to say ....I think.......??

Is it wrong to murder, in the Lord's eyes? 

but then you say that the Jesus is lord of the sabbath.... I have read that over and over..... but what does that mean to you.... being Lird of the Sabbath? 

I thought the Sabbath was designed by the Lord to be a day of rest, to stop doing for our selves, to dedicate the day to Him, because we are so busy throughout the week, that He wanted  us to take one day out for Him.

I may be putting my own thoughts in here... but I thought that He had to make all the rules for Israel at Mt. Siani because they had just come out of bondage to Egypt, living as slaves with no days of rest, and being so conditioned to not resting, that He had to mandate rules to make them stop....

My thinking here again.... I see the Laws of the commandments as a guide to let us know when we are walking off of the straight and narrow path.

He hates sin, always has, and always will hate sin, just because Christ died on the cross, does not mean that He quit hating sin. The punishment for sinning is still death.

but as a beleiver in Christ, my sins were paid for, so do I continue in my sin, and spit in my Lord face by doing so?

Being born again, should mean that my desires have changed, I should desire not to offend my Lord, because I know what price He paid for me, and if my desires have not changed, then maybe I should re-examine my walk with Him.

There is no warning in the New Testament for Sabbath breakers.  In fact, Jesus (the Lord of the Sabbath) broke the Sabbath.

Jesus "broke" the Sabbath when He healed people and once when He and His guys were hungry.  The "Lord of the Sabbath" wasn't very careful about observing this particular Law.  If violation of the Law is sin then Jesus sinned because it is clearly reported that He broke the Sabbath.  If Jesus sinned then He was not the unblemished Lamb and we've all got a very BIG problem.

For about 2000 years, Christians have had to wink at Jesus' violation.  People were stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath under the Law.  Jesus lived under the Law.  Jesus broke the Sabbath - yet without sin...  Go figure.

Paul, the big Pharisee and Hebrew of Hebrews, trivialized Sabbath day observance (along with holy days, and festivals).  The Jerusalem church was still down with the LOM but Paul had forged a different life for the non-Jerusalem Christians (us).

Rob

He broke the Sanhedrin's ideas and teachings of what the Sabbath is. They, the Sanhedrin, were putting laws upon laws upon the people, in order to intimidate the people.

Telling them that following the law is not required for salvation, but notice they do still have rules, and also states that from all of the cities that the followers have come from, Moses has been preached in the synagogues every sabbath.

Rom 2:26-29

Here Paul is saying that if the  un-circumcised keep the ordinances of the law, it becomes circumcision, and thus becomes a Jew inwardly.

Re-read Matt. 23.

Gary,

First, if the Lord of the Sabbath says it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath then guess what.  If He says it's okay to harvest on the Sabbath then that's okay too.

Secondly, in Acts 15, his reasoning for imposing Mosaic Law on the Christian Gentiles is a little spurious, don't you think?  What was James thinking?  What difference does it make that Moses had been read in every synagogue.  He could have said that because the sky is blue they should include these Jewish kosher restrictions.  Paul put the final nail in the coffin of the "meat sacrificed to idols" controversy (for most, that is).  See Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8.  Is Paul saying that they should absolutely not eat meat sacrificed to idols?  No.  Paul's theology and James' theology were diametrically opposed to each other.  James is of works, Paul is of faith.

And that's what we're talking about here.  Romans 2:26 is not saying that if the Gentile Christians keep the "ordinances of the Law" then they're as good as circumcised.  The King James Version says it best:

The "righteousness of the law" is does not mean "keeping the Sabbath" or "keeping kosher".  To Paul, the righteousness of God is not in keeping the law, righteousness is by faith.

Listen to your reasoning:
Here Paul is saying that if the  un-circumcised keep the ordinances of the law, it becomes circumcision, and thus becomes a Jew inwardly.

Since when does outward actions result in inward grace?  Psychologically, this does not hold up.  Mechanical actions do not make the man.  Actions are the result of something inside not vise versa.  Even a sincere desire to make God happy by performance certain actions is in itself an affront to God.

You've completely missed the gospel, Gary.  This is a big problem.

Please understand that the gospel is good news because of how it defines "righteousness".  There are (and have always been) two opinions regarding righteousness.  One says righteousness is of works (the church of James) and the other says it is of faith (the church of Paul).

Keeping the "righteousness of the law" cannot mean keeping kosher or Sabbath day observance - not in Paul's theology, that is.

It would be inconsistent for Paul, on the one hand to promote keeping the "ordinances of the Law" (in Romans 2:26) and on the other hand, trivialize these very ordinances (Col 2:16).  Just before Paul told the Colossians not to let any man judge you he said:

Paul's opinion regarding the ordanances of God was that they were against us.

Galatians is a VERY angry book.  Paul had had it with the Judaizing scum that had seeped out of the church in Jerusalem headed up by none other than the very flesh and blood brother of Jesus Himself, James the Just.  In Galatians, Paul forever put to an end this concept that he preached Law.

You would have to close your eyes when you read the bible to conclude that Paul promoted these things.  Paul was adamant in his theology regarding law.  Paul knew what keeping the Law of God does to us psychologically (read spiritually).  To Paul, Law and sin were very closely related.  Like the image of the beast, in Revelation, Law gives power to sin.

You have to go with a preponderance of evidence.  We use the bible to interpret the bible.  We cannot take one verse of scripture, which seems to say one thing, and ignore the vast number of scriptures that say just the opposite.  Not only that, the other scriptures give logical reason for saying what they say.

Paul knew his contemporaries considered him a heretic.  However, he was compelled by a higher power.  He refused to preach the same "gospel" that was being spread by the Jerusalem church.  Paul's message was different.  It was unique.  Trying to reconcile Paul's gospel with whatever else was written in the first century is difficult at best and completely impossible at worst.

Rob

Listen to your reasoning:
Here Paul is saying that if the  un-circumcised keep the ordinances of the law, it becomes circumcision, and thus becomes a Jew inwardly.    not my words, this is Paul's words  Romans 2:29, speaking about the believers that had not been circumcised.

As to law and sin. The Lord hates sin, so much so that it brings the death sentence. The law is our executioner. We are deserving of death, because of sin. When Christ died on the Cross, He paid our price for sin. But that does not change the fact the He still hates sin.

When we become "born-again", He puts a new heart within us, one that desires to follow Him, and desires to obey Him. If we continue in our sin, we crucify Him anew. We spit in His face.

Every time He healed someone, He told them to go and sin no more. He places this desire to follow Him, to quit following the lusts of the flesh.

He tells us that we must crucify our flesh daily, to deny our selves the things our flesh desires.  He puts the desire to please Him, in all that we do. (He does not make us into robots, that have to follow Him, He gives us the choice)

If we slip, (which we will) His grace steps in, and stands between us and the death sentence. But if we refuse to follow Him, we have stepped out of His grace, if we willingly continue down a road of self destruction, He will allow it, but we are told that those that do, are chaff and will burned away.

Grace is not a license to sin!

The gospel (good news) is knowing that there is forgiveness, IF we repent (turn from) our sin. What did Christ die on the cross for? 

Here is another word from Paul in Romans,

The works are not works of flesh, trying to be good, or having to go out and bring in the harvest, the works are the fruit He produces in us, when we stay grafted into His vine.

To think that the Lord has abolished all rules and laws is saying the He has changed His nature, for from the beginning He has operated in harmony, not chaos, for a kingdom to have no laws is nothing but anarchy.

He puts His laws within our hearts, and being born-again with the power of the Holy Spirit gives us the ability and the desire to follow them. 

But as said above, when we do slip, his grace keeps us from being seperated from His love.

He gives us the desire to have no other gods before Him, to not make to yourselves any graven image, not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, to honor your father and your mother, to not kill, to not commit adultery, not steal, not bear false witness against your neighbor, not covet your neighbor's house. 

And who would I be if I tried to talk you out of that belief.  If that's the way you read it then that's the way you read it.

For those of us who read it differently, however, we are not sinning.  This is not some perverse "self-justification" because there is a basis in scripture to support this belief.  In fact, to our warped sensibilities, we would actually be sinning if we thought that keeping a special day would make us more acceptable to God than if we did not.  Equating this with murder is a bit overboard, in my opinion - God's too, I believe.

I keep the Sabbath every day.  How about you?  In fact, I live in the age of Sabbath rest.  Am I more accepted by God because I rest in His kingdom more than you?  Certainly not.  My point is that the Sabbath was never meant to be a single day of the week but a state of being after God finished creation (ala MichaelATL43's post, above).

When Jesus finished the work the Father gave Him to do, He sat down.  God finished the work of creation 2000 years ago.  Up until then the world was not complete.  Jesus, the Lamb of God was "slain from the foundation (or creation) of the world".  Furthermore, until He was slain, the world was only a work in progress.  This is the New Testament doctrine on the Sabbath.  It is not a day, it is an age, an era, an epoch.  People who miss this concept miss one of the biggest blessings of the kingdom of God.  Why?  Because they're so busy making sure they rest on Saturday so God won't be upset with them.  Honestly, Gary, calling it sin is NOT helpful.

Regarding being judged by our works:  When I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, I will be judged by my works.  This is not a judgement to determine whether I'm saved.  I've already accepted Jesus as my righteousness thus I am saved.  Where I fit in the "here-after", however, is another story.

The apostle Paul is still accruing interest on the investment he made 20-centuries ago.  We won't know where Paul fits in the pecking order until it's all over.  If earth lasts another 5000-years, the position Paul holds in the next life will be paid for by what he did in this life.  This kinda runs contrary to the parable about the people who were hired in the morning, the afternoon, and the evening but it's about the only way we can reconcile the "judged by works" and "righteous by faith" theologies.

This does not negate Jesus.  Those who have accepted His sacrifice have already died.  Whether we breath after our conversion has little to do with whether we're going to heaven.  Accepting Jesus' sacrifice gets us there.  Where we live after we get there is up to us.  Breaking the Sabbath Day is not going to be one of the determining factors, I'm convinced.

To your credit, you never once said that people who do not observe the Sabbath Day are unrighteous.  Very good.  It shows that you do know how we are declared righteous by God.

Rob

True, I never said that not following that Sabbath as a day makes one unrighteous.

 you wrote: My point is that the Sabbath was never meant to be a single day of the week but a state of being after God finished creation I think you are referring to after the Lord created the earth, during Adams time. But He said it was done, not that He was still creating, a work in progress, there is no scriptural evidence of this that I have read.

 Jesus, the Lamb of God was "slain from the foundation (or creation) of the world". -- this is referring to the creation over 6000 yrs ago, not 2000 yrs, saying in fact that He new Adam would fall, not that He was still creating the earth.

 Furthermore, until He was slain, the world was only a work in progress.  This is the New Testament doctrine on the Sabbath.  It is not a day, it is an age, an era, an epoch. --- again I can not find any scriptural evidence in this thought.

 Because they're so busy making sure they rest on Saturday so God won't be upset with them. I never said I have to follow the Sabbath so He would not be upset with me, but rather He puts the desire in me, 

 Regarding being judged by our works:  When I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, I will be judged by my works.  This is not a judgement to determine whether I'm saved.  I never said this, but rather it is the evidence of our salvation, it is the fruit He produces in us.

For repentance, (turning from our sins, confessing to Him that we are unable to follow the Law in ourselves, realizing that the Law has condemned us, asking forgiveness of our failings) and believing that He is God, born of flesh, lived a perfect life, died for our sins, and was resurrected. Dwelling now in Heaven.

If we continue in our sin, and do not repent, then there is no salvation, because He never setup residence in the heart, self is still on the thrown, living for what self wants, and not what Christ wants.

golden, Paul did not say The passover, or sabbath ended with our Savior on the cross in this verse, but read on to the next verse.

yes, I know the doctrine and the theology, but there is no scriptural basis that I have found that states this, that the Sabbath is no longer kept. I was raised on the same teachings, but I have not read where Paul tells us to no longer rest, that the Lord took the Sabbath away, sure there is a reference that says  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: this just states let no man judge you........ but if you read the whole chapter, he keeps referring to the ordinances of man, not of the Lord. 

Is it so hard, to take one day out for the Lord, to dedicate it to Him, I understand the premise behind what you are saying, that we are to do this every day...... but how many of us do? I have a job, I work, and while working I try to keep focused on the Lord, but my mind is distracted by life. Why is it so difficult to stop and take 1 day, give it to Him, doing things for Him, spending true quality time with Him. I am not saying to make it a ritual, but truly give Him a full day.

We are raised with and live the other nine, why is this one so difficult?

That's it.  There is no other passage that says it like this.  Hebrews is an awesome work and nobody knows who wrote it.  Some say it was written in the middle of the second century because of its sophisticated handling of the subject matter.

Hebrews is also where I get the idea that Jesus finished the work of creation.  And even the apostle Paul said that things happen first "in the natural" (my words not his) and then in the spiritual (see 1 Cor. 15).  If that's true then that would explain this dual-creation theology suggested by the scriptures.  And it would also account for the statement that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.  (Given that no such event is recorded in Genesis.)

Obviously the Hebrews writer was not talking about the physical end of the world, rather he was talking about the end of the physical world and the beginning of the new spiritual world.

The cessation of physical work is not important in this new world order.  The important lesson to learn is that we are no longer bound to any physical observances in our worship of God.  Under the old world order, there were physical forms of worship that the people of God were obliged to do.  In addition to temple worship, special holy days and festivals were common - even commanded - under the old world order.

Dead Works: The book of Hebrews also talks about something it calls "dead works".  Contrary to what the New International Version (NIV) of the bible would have you believe, the expression "dead works" does NOT mean, "works that lead to death" - necessarily.  The NIV is a VERY loose translation and is actually more of an interpretation of the scriptures than a translation, without being a paraphrase.

God's law (either Old or New) deals with two distinct relationships: how we are to relate with each other and how we are to relate to God.  One horizontal and one vertical.

Under the Old Covenant, the Holy Spirit was not generally available and even those upon whom He came, it was temporary (as in the expression, "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" Ps. 51:11).  Under the New Covenant, we are complete in Jesus.  If any man be in Christ he is a new creature.  He's a new creature because he's received a new Spirit - the Holy Spirit.

Because I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, my relationship with God is at a new level - a level that no one under the Old Covenant ever had.  I have the mind of Christ.  Because as He is, so are we in this world.  Therefore, my relationship to mankind is the same - thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. but my relationship to God has changed.  Because I'm in Christ, I have the same quality of life God has.  God's not looking at His watch waiting for Saturday to come so He can rest, He's resting right now.  Today.  While it is called Today, He is resting because His work is finished.  And if we are in Christ, we too are resting in our relationship to God.  We have been saved from ritualistic observances because God has changed how we relate to Him.  He made it better and more intimate.  The Holy Spirit is AWESOME!

The church of Christ has taken the Lord's Supper and made it a ritualistic form of relating to God.  They have taken baptism and called it the only way God can give His Spirit to people.  Religion takes the personal relationship out of our walk with God and tends to reduce it to special times or special rituals.  The Catholic Church is the grossest offender in this regard.

So you will NEVER find a verse of scripture that says, "The Sabbath is no longer kept".  First of all, if you're doing this thing right, everyday is a day of sabbath rest and secondly, we're not supposed to relate to God in a ritualistic fashion.

Each of the Ten Commandments can be violated in this dispensation.  You talk about worshiping idols.  That's a vertical commandment.  Nobody in our culture goes out, cuts down a tree, carves an image and says, "That's god".  But the apostle Paul referred to greed as a form of idolatry.  Honor your father and mother is a horizontal commandment and it still stands.  Keeping the Sabbath is another vertical commandment but is only applied spiritually (like idolatry).  We violate this law when we treat our relationship with God as though we are still under to Old Covenant.

Gary, I have never thought of the commandments of God this way before but our discussion has sparked in me a new way of looking at things.  I am going to re-read the bible with this vertical / horizontal relationship concept in mind.  Maybe I've hit on something great and maybe I'm full of beans.

Thanks for your help,
Rob

Rob, I too have greatly enjoyed our bible studies, I am digging in so much lately, thank you for being a part of the Lord's plan to re-kindle the fire within me.As to what you wrote, I will be pondering it tonight, but I have to finish getting ready to take my son to Boy Scouts.

In Christ.

Gary...

I did an in-depth study on Hebrews, here is what I understand of it:

 This rest as the author wrote, was not GIVEN, but must be obtained. 

Hebrews 9, the author  is making a statement about sacrifices, it is a negative statement. Stating that Christ is not sacrificed over and over as was done by Moses and the priests.

Remember that to the writter, the end was near, they had no idea that it would be read 2000 years later.

 you wrote: And if we are in Christ, we too are resting in our relationship to God.

See 1 Corinthians 9:21....  (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)  ...

also in the same chapter, verse 24: ....  So run, that ye may obtain. ...

and verse 27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 

It is an on-going struggle, 

Paul also writes in Romans: 

7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 

See also Romans 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

and 21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

so don't boast because just as the Jews were broken off, so may we, because of un-belief, or pride.

 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
 

If you look at the context, however, he's not talking about God rejecting him, he's talking about the people he's preaching to rejecting him (and, by association, his message).  Paul is talking about establishing rapport with the people you're preaching to.  At one point, he said, "I have become all things to all men".  Why did he want to become all things to all men?

The context of 1 Cor. 9 is evangelism - not "staying saved".  He reinforced this thought in 2 Cor. 6:3.

Honestly, I have been beaten over the head with 1 Cor. 9:27.  Why do people want to make this thing difficult?  Jesus promised light and easy and He also promised that He would never cast us away.

The apostle Paul was "ate up" with spreading the gospel and was a master at establishing rapport - to the end that some would be saved.  This talent for establishing rapport did not come naturally.  Paul had to work very hard at it.  He wasn't working to stay saved (as most will lead you to believe) but it was to receive a reward.  What did Paul say, in 1 Cor. 9, that his reward was?

To Paul, it was reward enough to not receive compensation for his efforts in the gospel.  How many preachers would still preach if they were not being paid?  He considered taking a paycheck "gospel abuse".  Paul was awesome.

In 1 Cor. 8, Paul said he would never eat meat sacrificed to idols - not because he thought it was wrong but for the sake of the weak conscience of the other.  1 Cor. 9 is a continuation of that discussion. 

All of us are under whatever function God has prepared in advance for us to do.  Each of us are equally "ate up" with our work.  I love to read and study the word of God.  I also love writing about and discussing what I've learned.  I do these things to the exclusion of other things.  In a sense, I "put under my body" in order to continue doing the thing I love to do.  We're all like that to some degree.  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might (Ec. 9:10).

Our relationship with God couldn't be easier, however.  Our life in Christ is not supposed to be a difficult struggle and people who teach that it is have not learned of Jesus.

Gary, the first time I tried this "Jesus thing", they told me my life was supposed to be hard and you know what?  I received the goal of my faith.  As a man thiniketh in his heart so is he.  My life conformed to the belief of my heart.  Unfortunately, I was not as strong as they were.  My difficult life along with my difficult relationship with God did not serve me well.  People tend to disassociate from the source of their pain.  I fled to Satan who promised me peace, rest, and fun.  To my warped thinking, Satan's yoke was easier than Jesus' yoke.  Why?  Because I had not learned of Jesus.

This time, I'm convinced of better things.  So far, it's a better strategy.  I'll let you know in eternity whether I chose the right path this time.

Rob

If Romans is read in it entirety, Paul keeps referring to the curse of the Law, but he does also keep saying that the law is good, and that he does follow the law in his mind, but it is the flesh that wars against the law. The flesh hates the law, the spirit wants to follow it.

It is the law that makes sin exceeding sinful, the law is what tells us that we are not in fellowship with the Lord, because it is a standard, a goal to reach as it were.

Paul also writes that grace is not a license to sin.

It is the curse of the law, because of sin, we are dead, and now able to marry another (Christ). In the eyes of the law, we are dead, and freed from sin (our old marriage partner).

As to the gentiles, any time a gentile came into the camp of the Hebrews, they did have to follow the law, whether they came in as a free person, or as a slave, they were required to follow the laws, 

and in Romans, Paul writes that the gentiles because of Faith in Christ, are grafted into the family of Abraham, no longer a gentile. He changes our nature, no longer a wild olive branch, but grafted in, partaking of the root.

And we should never be high minded, or boastful, because He is able to cut us off, because of unbelief.

note Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

goodness here is  usefulness, that is, moral excellence (in character or demeanor):

There is no moral excellence without the desire to following the law.

The author here in Hebrews 8, is speaking about the old contract with Israel, in the new contract, He will write His LAWS in our hearts and in our minds.

If you read the whole chapter here, notice it is all in future tense.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:(this is from Jer. 31:31-40) speaking about New Jerusalem.

 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (again, this is speaking of the New Jerusalem, for we are a LONG way from this point)

The old contract is almost ready to expire:  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.   future tense...notice the author did-not write, is vanished away.

 as to the covenant nailed to the cross, where does it say this?

it says in Col. 2:14 ordinances of commandments and doctrines of man, this is not the Law.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

This is speaking about the many rules and doctrines that the priest kept piling onto the people, the ordinances is not the covenant.

We are justified by our faith in what Christ did,  by asking for forgiveness for breaking His laws, and turning from sin.

What was nailed to the cross, was our sins, and our sins are manifested by the Law, for without the law, sin has no teeth.

Our sins that Christ forgave us of, was breaking His law.

So if there is no law, because it is dead, then there is nothing to forgive us of, and Christ died for nothing!

The expression "sold under sin" means "sold into slavery to sin".  "Carnal" simply means "natural or fleshly".  It does not (necessarily) mean sinful.  Our carnalness (i.e flesh) was sold as a slave to sin.  (Who sold us?)

The flesh is the slave of sin and the Law give power to sin.

Flesh, in order to serve his master, needs law.  Any good slave serves to make his master stronger.

If you were righteous, Gary, you would not need law.  This dovetails nicely into point #2 ("There is no moral excellence without the desire to following the law.")

Moral excellence might beachieved by rigorous adherence to law but not righteousness.  Righteousness does not come about by "desiring to follow the law".  If it did then righteousness could be commanded.  Given the choice between being righteous and being morally excellent, I'll choose righteousness every day because I don't know if I can be "morally excellent" enough.

Look, Gary, let me give you a real-time example.  Every week, I attend Group Therapy for sex offenders.  I'm the only born again person in my Group.  I can say with a pretty high degree of confidence that the guys in my Group will never reoffend.  But just because they don't reoffend doesn't make them righteous.  Today, my Group members and I have a higher degree of moral excellence than we had when we first started therapy, but I'm the only one who is righteous.  The goal of the gospel is NOT necessarily moral excellence.  In fact, it can be shown that "moral excellence" is merely a by-product.  The goal of the gospel is righteousness.

That deals with points 1 and 2.  I'll give you time to respond and then speak to other points.

Rob

Rob:

1) The flesh hates the law, the spirit wants to follow it.

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

1Co 9:21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

2) There is no moral excellence without the desire to following the law.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (goodness in Greek, is moral excellence. (without the fruit, the evidence of salvation) {but I will conceed, this is my words, not scripture}
3) In the eyes of the law, we are dead, and freed from sin (our old marriage partner).

Rom 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (To the law, we are dead)

(4) Behold, the days come...:(this is from Jer. 31:31-40) speaking about New Jerusalem.

Read verse 34, this scripture has not been fulfilled, we are still waiting for this, verse 38 is speaking about the new city (new Jerusalem)

5) The old contract is almost ready to expire:...notice the author did-not write, is vanished away.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.  (a covenent is a contract)

6) This is speaking about the many rules and doctrines that the priest kept piling onto the people, the ordinances is not the covenant.

Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

7) without the law, sin has no teeth.

I parafrased a bit here, sorry... Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

8) Our sins that Christ forgave us of, was breaking His law.

What is sin, but breaking the Law.   Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

9) So if there is no law, because it is dead, then there is nothing to forgive us of, and Christ died for nothing! 

This is a question, I keep hearing that the Law is dead, and if dead, then there is nothing for the Lord to forgive us of. Repentance is asking forgivness for breaking the law, else what are we asking forgiveness from. without repentance, there is no forgiveness. Because in this mind set, there is nothing to be forgiven, so Christ died for nothing.

When the New Covenant came in, there was a change in the law.  This is the source of the statement, "the law changed" and is not "mixing up a covenant with law".  Jesus changed EVERYTHING - law and covenant.

Rob

True, about Him changing the priesthood to Melchizedek,

but something that gets lost in translation is that there were 2 laws. One was the Law (10 commandments) written by the Lord, the other was the cerimonial law. 

The LAW dwelt with sin, the cerimonial dwelt with sacrifice, or payment required for the breaking of the LAW.

While the word ceremonial is spoken frequently of in scripture the term Ceremonial Law is not. In the KJV Bible, it is normally translated to ordinances which Strong’s dictionary translates to as being a law of ordinances or ceremonial law.

As it was a system of commandments given by God to Israel, there can be no doubt that it was a law which involved ceremonies so it will be frequently called the Ceremonial Law. Since this law ended at the cross it was only observed by the children of Israel.

The key to understanding Colossians 2:16 is found two verses earlier in Colossians 2:14.

The keywords are, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.” The Greek word for blotting is “exaleipho”, pronounced “ex-al-i'-fo”. Strong's dictionary gives the definition; “to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.”

The next keyword in this verse is “handwriting” and the Greek word is “cheirographon”, pronounced “khi-rog'-raf-on” and the definition is, “something handwritten (”chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.”

And the last and final very important word we need to look at is “ordinances”, Greek word is “dogma”, pronounced “dog'-mah” and the Strong's definition is “a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.”

So the verse you mentioned earlier in Hebrews, if read along with the other verses of this chapter, deals with the priesthood of Levi, and how Christ came out of Juda. The cerimonial law was changed, else Christ could not have been our High Priest.

So what was nailed to the cross as Paul explains in verse 14? The “Law of Moses,” which is also called the “Mosaic Law”, the “Book of the Law” and as we have just seen by the definition given by the KJV Bible, the “Ordinances.”

There should be no doubt that the ceremonial law is not the Moral law and that Paul has said that we no longer need to observe the feasts days that were associated with the ordinances as some teach in ignorance.

This was the whole problem that Paul was addressing as some Jews were still doing this.

The ceremonial law was for Israel alone as the Gospel did not go to the Gentiles for 3.5 years after Jesus died on the cross.

This is why there is so much confusion between the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandments. That one and final perfect sacrifice of Jesus ended this whole sacrificial system, thankfully giving us no requirement to obey this law.

Since Jesus replaced this law, He has become the remedy for sin, which is the breaking of God's Ten Commandment law.

Colossians 2:16  “Let no man therefore judge you in meat (offering), or in drink (offering), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:” and so the belief of some is the fourth Commandment (Sabbath) was deleted from stone. What was actually done away with here was the ordinances (Ceremonial Law).

see also :

then if you re-read Hebrews Chapter 9, you will see the author is talking about the outer and inner sanctuary.

The outer sanctuary was the ceremonial sacrifices, touch not, taste not, while the inner sanctuary is a representation of the sanctuary not built by hands.

 anyways, have an open heart, see where the Lord leads you on this.

The statement, "for to will is present with me" is the same frustration that is in every one of us who tries to do this thing by law (and not necessarily the Law of Moses - any law), in the flesh.  This is why he can say in the latter verse that I delight in God's law after the thing that dwells within every one of us - the flesh.

Rather that disprove my statement, you made my point for me.  The flesh NEEDS constraint.  Law holds out the promise of constraint but it fails miserably.  The flesh loves law because sin is its master but law, unfortunately, gives power to sin.  Law empowers sin.  The flesh cannot control itself.  The more law that is applied as a means to control the flesh, the more power sin has.  The more you sin, the more law you need in order to control the flesh.  The more law you apply the more sin dominates you.  It's a vicious cycle and everyone has lived it.  Law serves sin - but only in the context of the flesh.

The "compound interest" of sin is the expectation of judgment.  This expectation is what Paul referred to as "condemnation".  The frustration of Romans 7 is so bitter as to be called condemnation in Romans 8:1.  The law, the power of sin, has to be taken out of the equation for us to survive.

Now, you can take law away two different ways (maybe more).  First, you can just pretend God never said, "Thou shalt not covet" and, in a sense, you'd be free from that law.  This is abject denial.  This was pretty much my lifestyle when I backslid 20+ years ago.  Or you can say, "All things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient".

This is the Christian attitude.  We don't abstain from sin because it's against the Law (although it is indeed against the Law) but we abstain from sin because we are free from it.  To get bogged down with sin again after we've been saved from it is complete madness.  Why would anybody want to do that to themselves again?

Not that some don't.  But I'm convinced that the ones that do go back into sin is not because they're not trying hard enough.  I don't even think it's because they especially want to go back into that lifestyle.  I think the biggest reason that people go back into sin is because it's a better deal than what they think God is offering them.  I know I did.

Gary, I hated my life.  Here I was a twenty-something year old guy who was addicted to sexual immorality and I "did" every girl in church who would let me.  Did you ever pray this prayer, "Please God, forgive me.  Don't let her be pregnant.  I promise I'll never do that again."

Three weeks or a month later I'm praying the same prayer - with just as much remorse.  Jesus said, "Swear not at all..." but when you're a slave to one sin, you tend to violate in other areas of your walk.  "I swear, I'll never do that again".  I didn't want to be, but I was such a liar.  And I was completely and totally in the flesh.

I was sincere.  I wasn't trying to put one over on God.  I meant EVERY word of that unrighteous prayer.  For I delighted in the law of God, after the inward man, but I was completely incapable of breaking the bonds of sexual sin.

I went to church, I recommitted and rededicated, I pushed all the right buttons.  Heck, I even got re-baptized because I knew I'd lost something.  I was not experiencing the victory that I used to experience - before I let them put me back under law.  But, at the time, I didn't know what I was doing wrong.  All I knew was that I absolutely had to stop "sleeping" with my sisters in Christ.  I was beginning to develop a reputation.

So I bid God, Jesus, the church and everything else adieu.  This did NOT happen over night.  Condemnation is a process that starts with our believing that we can be pleasing to God by obeying His commandments.

My goal, this time through, is to be pleasing to God.

The law is not  of faith.

Is the law sin?  Not quite, but almost because:

These are unrelated scriptures but I think you can see my point.

My opinion is that your blog asks the wrong question:  "What is the Sabbath?" is irrelevant.  The right question would have been, "What is Righteousness?"

Don't worry about what the Sabbath is or it isn't.  If righteousness is your aim then who cares what the Sabbath is?  God's law has got nothing to do with God's righteousness because the gospel reveals the righteousness of God from faith to faith.  Righteousness apart from law:

Splitting hairs over what's law and what's ordinance is going way beyond what is written and is a vain attempt at hiding the fact that folks who espouse such theology are in the flesh and not in the spirit.  I'll address that issue on my next comment.

I REALLY love this Gary!

Thanks,
Rob

Rob, what I "see" is what happened in Corinth,

you wrote: Now, you can take law away two different ways (maybe more).  First, you can just pretend God never said, "Thou shalt not covet" and, in a sense, you'd be free from that law.  This is abject denial.  This was pretty much my lifestyle when I backslid 20+ years ago.  Or you can say, "All things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient". Below is what Paul wrote.....

here you said:

 but if you read again in 1 Cor. 8:7-13, this is dealing with Ceremonial law, touch not, taste not.... I know you said that you think I am splitting hairs on the law vs the LAW, but it does tie together...

Look also at 1 Cor. 15:34, Paul says.. Awake to righteousness, and sin not;....

again, I will ask what is sin? Is sin not the breaking of the 10 Commandments, so if Paul says this... then what...

He also says many times, that he dies daily, why would he need to die daily, and why would he have to crucify the flesh.... but because of sin. 

 look at what he says....for to will is present with me.... the will to do what?

 If you read further in Romans 7, Paul says: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. in verse 31.

It is not possible to keep the law, for if we break even ONE, we are dead, but it is Christ in us, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that we can, flesh is unable to, but the spirit can. It is this DESIRE, that makes the difference.

 Paul wrote:  that grace is not a license to sin. (again I ask what is SIN)?

Paul also writes in Romans: 

7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 

As to what you went through, backsliding because of sin, Paul wrote the Corinthians about that to:

1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 

 So glad the Lord is our redeemer, and has brought you back to fold, out of the cold.

ok, finally found what I was searching for:

and here;

here is the kicker though!!

But Rob, how can the priesthood change, unless He change the law. Remember that only a Levi could be the High Priest.

Before the law, Melchizedek was the priest,

Gen 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

When the law came into effect, the annointing passed to the Levi's, they were the only ones that were allowed to minister before the Lord, they were the only ones allowed into the Holy of Holies.

ah, I see..you are correct...

Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
The law was changed (ceremonial) because the priesthood changed.

Now here is the rub though... was the priesthood changed before or after the Crucifixion and Resurrection?

The Hebrews writer is speaking in regard to the perspective of the prophet Jeremiah - not from our or even his perspective.  In other words,

"Because Jeremiah said, 'a new covenant', he declares the one that he was living under old.  Now anything that decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

The Hebrews writer was NOT saying that we are still living under the Old Covenant.  Dude, there is NO WAY you can get that theology out of the book of Hebrews.  You'd have to completely lose your ability to comprehend a sentence to get that out out of Hebrews.

Rob

If there is no sin, or need to NOT worry about sin, then why would John write what I put above,

and here;

here is the kicker though!!

 And if Paul was so adamant against the law, why would he say;

 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 

Why would Paul say to put out the leaven from among you as quoted above also?

I am not saying we are UNDER the law, but that it is a guide, it is the narrow path, it is what tells us we have gotten off of the path, imagine a narrow path with no edges, how are you to know if you are still on the path.

 As to sin and law. I think we are putting emphases on different parts of the sentence.

your emphases is here:

Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become (dead to the law) by the body of Christ; that ye should be 

mine is here

Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, (ye also are become dead) to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be 

 notice what the chapter is talking about. he is talking about marriage between two people, and how if the husband dies, the law no longer sees her as married, so she is free to re-marry.

Rom 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. she is freed not from the law, but from the contract of marriage because the husband has died.
 

he also says that the law is NOT sin.

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

but because sin is a deceiver:

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
 Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Not just toothless, completely dead.

Rob

As to the gentiles, any time a gentile came into the camp of the Hebrews, they did have to follow the law, whether they came in as a free person, or as a slave, they were required to follow the laws,

Look at Romans  11, he is writing about being grafted into the olive tree, and the natural branches were cut off (the Jews) because of unbelief, we were granted in among them (believing Jews)

But the above quote was in response to a post by golden.

Ok, point given, I concede, I got my quote mixed up, I think what I was thinking was from

Rom 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. But I do see what you say,

I think what I am trying to say here about:

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

This is why Paul says he has to crucify his body daily. It is the law that kills, BECAUSE of sin. And sin is breaking the law, so repentance is asking for forgivness for breaking the law, and turning from that sin (breaking the law)

Not just a crippling effect, it has the affect of Crucifixion!

It is the reason Christ died on the cross, because of sin, breaking of the law. In us we can NEVER keep the law, but through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can make it our goal, our desire to please the Lord.

I WANT to not have any other gods beside my GOD

I WANT to not bow down before any idol, or have any graven image.

I WANT to  not use my Lord's name in vain.

I WANT to a day of rest and dedicate my self to Him on that day. 

I WANT to honor my mother and father.

I WANT to not murder, or even hate my brother.

I WANT to not have an affair, or even look on another woman with lust.

I WANT to not steal.

I WANT  to not tell a lie about my neighbor.

His Spirit puts within us the desire to please the Lord.

Christ's blood upon us, is our grace. His desire is for us not to sin. But because of the flesh, He has forgiven us of our sins (breaking the law) IF we repent ( think differently, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction)). But it can not be done by us, only through the power of the Holy Ghost within us.

He changes our minds from carnal mind to spiritual minds, our flesh will always fail us, but it is our changed minds (hearts) that the Lord loves. (sorry...rambling)

I think we are about to be able to fit into that car.... you know... the accord... lol.....

Act 1:14  These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
 

Sin is alive.  The law is alive.  I am dead to them both but I live unto God.  Your point is well taken.

Absolutly... we are dead! and now it is Christ who lives in us!!!

Sin no longer sees me, nor does the law.

It is the power of Christ than now enables us to walk upright and boldly unto the throne of the Lord.

Because we are no longer bound by the restrictions of this life, He has given us a new mind, one that desires to please Him. 

It is the old dead body that has been crucified with Christ, and now it is Christ risen in us, that gives us the power to live a life pleasing to Him.

What pleases the Lord.... it is not sacrifice, it is obedience.

Heb 10:6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE LORD?

What is the will of God?  Well, we know that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

We know that the letter killeth but the Spirit brings life.

We can conclude, therefore, that God is not willing that we should be under "the letter" but under the Spirit.

How do you like dem apples?

Rob

yes, we are grafted into the vine, or the olive tree as stated here, but what is the vine, or olive tree, it is the seed of Abraham. We are grafted into and in place of the Jews that do not believe, for notice also Paul says that if we are not to be boastful, because He can cut us off of the same branch for unbelief.

As to the will of the Lord, it is for us to be righteous just as He is righteous,

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

anyway, will write more later... have to go pick my son up.... 

the commandment of Christ.

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 

now you will really like this though...

remember your mention of vertical and horizontal commandments.

most definitly a Christ follower.But also of the Hebrew seed.

Christ is more than a prophet, He is our passover lamb. 

The perfect sacrifice. 

unposted from 4/23/09

to be righteous,

equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

Mat 6:31  Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

4/24/09

I was reading TinaCoen's blog this morning, and I read this:

 14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 

I think that maybe this is why we see things differently.

The Lord called me as a prophet, so I see things in a different light, and from what I read, of your posts, you seem to be called an evangelist, so you see him differently.

 While studying this all out with, I saw something anew.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
 

you wrote:

We're going to have to wait for the call from the officiator on this one.  If we are under Law then I'm a complete idiot.  If we're under grace then, in the words of Ricky Ricardo, "You got some 'splainin' to do".

We are under grace, Grace is said to be free, in the sense that we do not have to have the wherewithal to pay for it. It is a gift of God. However grace is not unconditional. It requires belief in God's promises and obedience to his commandments. Whilst neither faith nor obedience merit salvation, they are necessary in order to receive salvation by grace. Rom 1:5

 Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 16:19  For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 

1Co 14:34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 

2Co 7:15  And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 

But I will let it go at that, seeing that as you say We live in two separate worlds.

I think that our love of the Lord is identical, but our founding doctrines differ.

used with permission by Craig; (eathenvessel)

1) We will look into the law to see Christ so that we can know him and trust him and love him more. 2) We will look into this law to test ourselves to see if we do know and trust and love Christ as we ought. God's law reveals Christ in many ways, and we may use it to know him and stir up our love for him. And the law is a litmus paper to test the genuineness of our love to Christ. Christ is the key to unlocking the meaning of the law; and then the law displays Christ for our heart's satisfaction – and transformation (see John 5:39; Luke 24:27).