I refer you to Romans 8:38-39:

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I answer your question with a question.  Are you part of creation?  I'd say so.  Therefore, if you're part of creation, and nothing in all creation can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, then even you can't do that.

I've often heard that if one claims to accept Christ, and then turns away, then in reality, they were never truly with Christ.  Romans 8:38-39 seems to confirm this.

Hope that's helpful,
Justin

I would argue that salvation can be lost...but I don't think it is done for minor trnagressions, but more of willful rejection of God.  I am not 100% sure this verse is appropriate, but it seems to say to me that in Rom 11:22  "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." might suggest that there is a possibility of being cut off from God.

Rom 11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Would someone who is truly saved turn from Christ?

I believe the above verse is pretty clear.

Brother Chris

Hello Freinds I also agree to thee point that Our salvation is secured in Christ. It is not our grip on HIM but it is His grip on what matters. and He will not loose us. His Promise will not fail. He is the good Shephered no sheep can go away from HIM, if lost, or misguided, He will, as a Good Shephered, go and find his sheep out.

 Raj

Answer to #1- I do what's right out of appreciation for what Christ has done for me. I do what's right because when I became a believer, God gave me a whole new kind of "want to!" I no longer had a desire to do the things I was doing. If I had to answer your question in one word, I would have to say -conviction.

Answer to number 2- We cannot look at the writings of very Jewish men with very Jewish customs and project our modern, Christological conjectures onto them. We are in a covenant that was sealed in blood. If we accept the covenant that God has offered, no matter what we do, the covenant is always in force. We think of a contract and how there is a way out of most (usually with a price). It's different with covenant. Neither party gets out.

Josh, regarding your first of these two questions, I feel like it would be hard pressed to say it any better than Paul does in Romans 6.  Check it out here.

 
I think your second question is really interesting for those that believe you can lose your salvation.  The question would then be, what must you do to continue to maintain your salvation?  If one thinks they could lose their salvation, it would seem then that their motivation for following God would be out of fear of losing their salvation, and not out of a thankful response to God's grace.  This would seem to run counter to the gospel.

"whats to stop people from doing what they want after they get saved?"

This would not call into question whether they are still saved, but rather it would call into question whether they were ever saved. Salvation undoubtedly cannot be lost, nor given away. All the words that describe the salvation experience (born again, new creation, etc.) are words of permanence. ~mike

The Bible gives us two clues:

By their fruits you shall know them...

By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one for another...

I have no way of knowing if you are saved of not, only God knows that. But I can have some idea by applying the two verses alluded to above.

Haha, that depends on whether you're Armenian or Calvinistic.

 I've thought this through enough to make my head hurt.  I've heard good views, good views based on scripture.  Somehow, people have managed to make conflicting views based on scripture.  I'm not really sure how.  You also get goofy cycles.  It's hard to believe that a) you know when you're saved and b) people who lose salvation never really had it, though that's the best reasoning I've came to on the doctrine, because then some people begin to worry they might be one of the ones who never really had it and then that takes away their knowledge of eternal security and then all sorts of crazy things start happening -- and they lose focus.  There are ways of understanding it, all sorts of ways, and people debate them for ages.  Sometimes the debates stop being about the Truth and start being about who's the better, louder, smarter, more eloquent speaker.

I came to the conclusion once, I think, that I was going to stop worrying about "once saved, always saved," whether it's true or not, because it sounds like one of those things that we are going fatally wrong if we disagree so sincerely.  Or maybe we actually agree at the very core of things, but we're getting to that conclusion an odd way.  I hate not worrying about things because I want to be a missionary, and I want to be able to teach these things.  Then again, maybe there's a greater message to be taught, here.

Rather than worrying about it, I think I'm just going to live out my relationship to God, because when you really accept Christ and really see Him for what He's said and done, you ... I don't know, you change.  It stops mattering how many sins you can get away with.  You don't want to sin.  You may be tempted into some sins at times, but at the core of things, your desires for your life are driven by God's heart, not a selfish one.  Sin begins to hurt even before the reprocussions get to you.  It begins to hurt the moment it enters your thought.  You're embracing God's Spirit in yourself so much that sin actually hurts.

 Life stops being about selfish things.  It starts to be about serving Him and knowing Him, and it's the beautiful sort of thing that inspires songs of praise and good works.

Maybe it's better to ask if that can be lost?  I hope not, but all kinds of crazy things happen.  I think we lose that spiritual vigour, at least, when we forget that we're doing it for God and because of God -- not for and because of ourselves.

 I certainly believe I am saved, perhaps by pure process of "overkill."  I've accepted Christ, but I'm going to go fifty steps further and completely give my life over to God, live for Him, make it about Him, love Him, and do good things for Him because of this love.  At what point did I cross the "line"?  At what point did God's saving grace touch my soul?  I'm going to venture to say that it was when I accepted Christ with my heart, not just my tongue, and that all of this is the simply the confirming result of the slow transformation that took place as I began to learn to turn away on my sinful nature and pour out the spirit.

But it's important, I think, to do these things out of our love for God, in response to our relationship with Him -- not so that we can "do things to get saved."  We all know the problem in that philosophy. 

  Can you lose that by turning away, denying God, turning back to sinful nature?  I don't know.  Who would want to?  That's what I want to know.  There is so much freedom in not having to worry about my life anymore because I've put it in God's hands -- so much freedom in being able to focus on Him, where I know I'm really getting somewhere in life, rather than trying and failing to find my own happiness. When you've experienced even a taste of God's mercy and glory and grace and love, it becomes a drug of the soul for which we are willing to give everything we have to have more.  It's not easy and it's not always an overnight process for many of us, but what is in our hearts, it's undeniably changed.  I'd venture to say that this experience--though it touches all of us differently--is a sign that God has blessed us with His saving grace, and that we can find our security in that.    When we turn away from God's ways after knowing them, it undeniably causes us to question salvation.  It causes the Spirit in us to convict us.  There's nothing that strikes a soul with greater fear, I think, than God's conviction.  What does that say about salvation, itself?  I don't know.  God knows.  If we want to know, maybe we should set our hearts back on Him so that he can let us know.  I think that's what He wants from us, to begin with.

My quick 2 cents worth...

1. If you could NOT do anything to EARN your salvation, what then can you possibly do to KEEP it?

2. You're born only ONCE physically, and born ONLY ONCE spiritually... if you can become "UN-born" spiritually, can you also become UN-born physically?

3. How many sins is TOO many, to the point where a believer "crosses the line" and is somehow "lost" again? Is it "ONE and you're done"? "TWO and you're through?" "THREE strikes and you're out?" "FOUR and no more?" Is this mysterious number a generic sum, applicable to all, or is each believer allowed a certain number on a case-by-case basis?

4. If you do lose your salvation, as some believe is possible, does that mean you have to be
"born again-AGAIN" or "saved again" or "re-saved?" How about if you "backslide" countless times? Do you just keep adding "RE" to saved, or "AGAIN" to the prior "agains"? ( IN the NT, I see NO reference or USE of the term "backslider/backsliding"...)

5. If you are now "not your own, but are bought with a price" then is your own "free will" able to undo your salvation, negating the saving and keeping power of Christ? Do you honestly have the power to UNSEAL what God's Spirit has SEALED UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION?

6. In the infamous story of the "prodical son", did the "prodical son" lose his sonship during his season of prodical living? Is this NOT a story of restoration, rather than of salvation or being "saved again"? Was the younger son's "sonship" restored, or was the FELLOWSHIP actually restored, since the son remained a son thru all of his time away? Did the father EVER refer to his youngest son in any other term besides "son?"

7. If Jesus is our Good Shepherd, and His statement in John 10:28-29 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand" says that NOONE can snatch us out of His grip, then does NOONE exclude the individual "sheep" himself/herself?

8. When Christ died on Calvary's cross, did His sacrifice pay IN FULL mankind's sin debt for all past, present and future sin? By placing your faith in Him, doesn't that also mean that ALL of your sins - past, present & future - are forgiven as well? Doesn't that mean that your salvation of your soul is complete/finished upon conversion? Isn't that what the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" in regards to the COMPLETE salvation of the believer's soul?

I rest my case FOR eternal security with I John 3:7-9 "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

WHEN YOU'RE "BORN AGAIN" INTO THE KINGDOM, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE AGENT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN YOUR SALVATION. WHEN GOD'S SEED (HIS SPIRIT) REGENERATES THE BELIEVER, THE BELIEVER'S CAPACITY TO GO BACK INTO, AND REMAIN IN WILLFULL SIN IS NULLIFIED! Not that we're perfect or teach perfection, but that sin is NO LONGER our nature! When you're His child, you are NOT exempt from sin, but rather your life is NOT characterized by sin! In other words, a believer might fall down, but WILL NOT fall away... I John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

I John 2:19-22 " They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.^[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

I could go on and on with more reasoning and scriptural references, but I leave off with this. I'm so thankful that the same God Who saved me from sin is able to KEEP me from sin, and my soul is TOTALLY SAVED! I'm saved, sealed, and delivered!

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Hey Joel, that was refreshing. Finally someone put some Scripture together!

Thank you! 

Might I recommend an OUTSTANDING book on this subject... it's called Totally Saved, by Tony Evans. It is an AWESOME summary of ALL that your salvation entails, and is biblically based, and NOT tainted by denominational dogma. This book would be well worth the read.

Let me also say that MANY in the pentecostal/charismatic/full gospel circles openly decry and vehemently denounce the doctrine of Eternal Security. I am an Ordained Bishop with the Church of God (Cleveland TN), and an unashamed "pentecostal" believer. I was taught the idea of "Conditional Salvation" and the concept of "keeping yourself SAVED"... it NEVER set well with me, and really didn't make good sense. I was quoted scriptures from the Book of Hebrews (of course, taken out of context) to "prove" this point. As I grew in grace, I came to understand that God gave us "horizontal" relationships (natural relationships) that mirror "vertical" relationships (spiritual relationships). Just as Christ loved the church and died for it, husbands are commanded to love and honor their wives in a marital relationship. Well, the case for Eternal Security is mirrored by a parent's relationship with a child. Just as my sons or daughters could NEVER do anything to make me love them any MORE or LESS, the same can be said of God and His children. Yes, you can be more "blessed" than others thru total obedience and submission to His will, but God's love for His children NEVER fluctuates! Disobedient children are just as loved as obedient ones... they just require more disciplinary actions! Whether you're an obedient son or a prodical son; an obedient daughter or a wayward daughter; His love is indiscriminatory! The SAME principle applies to your relationship with God! Just as there is NOTHING that my children can do to change the legal, scientific, or biological facts that they're mine, nor could I ever change these facts (or would I, for that matter)! Your child will ALWAYS be your child! They can change their name, their appearance, even alter their gender... but their DNA will ALWAYS state that they are your child! The SAME applies spiritually with our being adopted into His family! Once you're His, you're His for eternity!

John 1:12-13 " But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Amazingly, everyone answered the question according to their positional belief!  LOL.  Calvinist answered according to the Calvinist thinking and Armenian will answer according to the Armenian thinking.  The problem isn't with your doctrinal upbringing or position, the problem is with the actual question which invites such a response.  Respectfully, I would submit to all of you that "triangulation" of both doctrines would create a realistic perspective to consider regarding this question.  Hence, are you telling me that once "I choose" to serve God, I have lost my "free will" to unchoose (this is for the Calvinist-line thinkers")?  Are you going to unfairly brandish me as not being "truly" saved?  Which, by the way, that adjective is a human attempt to regulate "real salvation" from "unreal salvation."  Friends, you are either saved or not... let's leave the weak "truly" saved label off.

On the other hand, are you telling me that I am responsible for my own eternity (this is for the Armenian positioned Christian)?  My goodness, I can't even keep my own promise when I start a diet!!!!  Haaaaaaaaa... let alone, trust in myself for salvation!  I have a problem with folks who "get saved again" every day of the week.  This position weakens the power of the cross and leaves me "alone" to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling."  I don't want to live a paranoid life thinking that every minute of every hour I am going to slip off the Titanic and no one will know that I am drowning in a sea of sin heading to hell!

 Well, as you can already see, my answer is quite different than the postional answers already mentioned above.  I say this respectfully and humbly to all of my brothers and sisters in the Christian arena.  You are not going to simply ignore, downplay, or brutally put down the other's position and satisfy the answer fully.  Can you marry both and realize that we are secure in Christ and that we are responsible to choose to "walk in the Spirit"?  Maintain it ourselves... No!   Live wreckless lives because we are saved no matter what... No!  Read carefully throughout that Old Testament and the New Testament... especially Pauline theology and you will have to honestly weigh my position.  If you can't bring both into one... then how do you then explain the Trinity... is he three or one... or is he one in three?  Which by the way, is another controversial question we must consider in a different blog. Or how about Jesus... was he 100% God or was he 100% man? How can he be both without violating the essence of the other?  Hmmm... I guess my point is becoming a little clearer on triangulation...

In closing, this is not whether you are are "democrat" or a "republican" type of question... this is honestly looking at the entire scope of scripture and re-evalutating our traditional responses.  I respectfully submit this perspective for your consideration and welcome proper dialogue! 

Hey all, I think I'm going to cut out from this dialogue as I'm not sure how much more fruitful its going to be.  Just wanted to say sorry if any of my wording came across in the wrong way. Dr. Wilson, I think your "truly" comment was aimed at me, but in my defense, I was using the term to only refer to people who don't believe in Christ, not people who do.  Nonetheless, I know these issues are really sensitive so I should have been more careful with my language.

Johnathan Thomas, I understand your position for wanting more scripture references.  I think that's wise.  You now seem satisfied, so that's good.

I agree with the all the comments about this being the wrong question.  I pray that no one who follows Christ would ever reject Him.  We could spend tons of time discussing this issue, but I'd rather spend the time encouraging you all, building you up, and working together to advance God's Kingdom and making Him known.

In closing, I'd just like to make Paul's prayer for the Phillippians my prayer for you all:

"..That your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ - to the glory and praise of God."

Amen,
Justin

For me, two things wrap this one up:

1. What Wyatt said...if I can't do anything to earn it, then how can I do anything to unearn it.

2. The fact that God gives me the choice to live life more abundantly, if I want to. This scripture drives the point him;

Johnathan, This is one topic that I have studied intently.  You might want to consider a study for yourself.  I wish I had the time some have to gather all of the scriptures and lay it out in a nice format.  For lack of time, I simply paraphase my thoughts referring to certain scriptures.  I assume most of you know which ones I am referring to. 

Wyatt, Preach it Bro!  Right on my brother :)  If salvation was based on us, ie: our works, I would have lost mine a long time ago.  I would not want to walk around wondering if I lost my salvation based on my actions.  What freedom to KNOW we are secure in Him.

Thanks be to God that we are saved by grace alone, through faith and that is a gift from God, so that no man should boast!  When He gives his Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our salvation, it is a guarantee!  Give the credit and glory where it belongs!  To Him alone! 

Wow, this certainly gives us all alot to ponder...

What I have taken away from this is that the bottomline about the scripture that we can all agree on is this...Jesus will judge whether or not we are worthy of salvation when we kneel before him.  And though I feel I am one of the worst sinners and am completely unsure of my salvation becasue I sin more "unintentionally" than I would like to admit. When I am being judged I would understand completely if he did not give me salvation because I am truly not worthy of the honor and glory that will come in Heaven... But still I hope and pray that my faith in Jesus Christ and my works will be sufficent for him to grace me with the gift of his salvation.   To me the bottomline answer to this question is that no one really knows for sure, but we should act and live as though we could lose it...

Christ Jesus came into my heart at my most sinful state, when I needed Him most - when I humbly turned to Him for help. I most certainly was not saved due to any merit of my own - all I did was turn away from my sin and turn to Jesus Christ for help! 

There is no doubt in my mind that my salvation is not based on any good works of my own, but upon the merits of Jesus Christ alone. As long as I humbly keep my face turned to Jesus Christ for help, He will never turn away!  His grace is sufficient!

"The one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out."  (John 6:37)

JJ, you can be assured of salvation. You are indeed correct that when you stand before the judgment seat, if you (or I, or anyone) were measured on their own works or merits, it would not be enough, but those who are saved, when God looks upon us, He sees his son and says "enter in".

Karl, I would contend that His grace is so sufficient that even when we don't keep our face turned toward Him, he still never turns away.  He let's us walk the walk we choose and suffer the consequences of our actions in this world, but the beauty, the glory, the mercy of it all is that absolutely nothing can separate us.  Makes me ask, "Who am I?"

I think that this debate will continue until the end of the Age, and I can see why some "on the other side ofthe aisle" ( a little political terminology for ya' ) hold their views. The ABUSE of grace has led to the need to add our own attempts at WORKS in the issue of salvation. Folks who have NO inhibitions about sin, no conviction when they do wrong, yet show up in church and play the role of a Sunday morning saint week after week... This hypocrtitcal living fueled the drive to "add to" salvation with the unintended consequence of taking a FAITH-based salvation and putting our own "spin" and certain "works" in the equation. Jesus sums up the delema when He spoke of the "wheat & tares" growing up together until harvest time, then separating the two. Grace IS NOT a license for loose living or sin - it is the REASON NOT to do so! That's the jist of Paul's text in his writings on the subject in Romans. He nails it in his Book of Ephesians!

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who^[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

That's why I hold to the BIBLICAL doctrine of Eternal Security! My deal is SEALED!

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Frankly Jonathan, I don't believe one needs to do "an exhaustive systematic study" to come to the truth concerning the statement "once saved always saved."  God's Word does not contradict itself (how can truth contradict truth!), therefore it is really a matter of reading the appropriate passages, not ALL the passages of ALL of Scripture, to find the answer.  Joel has obviously done the research, and I believe he addressed the heart of the matter.  The question was resolved for me a long time ago too, but as I continue to read Scripture daily I find God continually confirming Joel's conclusion with everything I read.

As I said previously, the question may actually be more one of "were they ever really saved in the first place."  Which is why Peter says, "my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."  If we have it, we can't lose it, but let's just make sure we have it!!

~sealed with you (I believe!), mike

It is there, but not as clearly as it is presented in the NT. I've heard our pastors refer to the OT as the NT concealed, and the NT as the OT revealed. Jesus was discussed in great detail throughout the OT, yet not so clearly that every Jewish person knew exactly when to watch for Him and what to expect. ~mike

So, with all sincerity, what do we do with the following Scripture? What does it mean?

"Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children.

Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do.

Suppose wicked people stop sinning and start obeying my laws and doing right. They won't be put to death. All their sins will be forgiven, and they will live because they did right. I, the LORD God, don't like to see wicked people die. I enjoy seeing them turn from their sins and live.

But when good people start sinning and doing disgusting things, will they live? No! All their good deeds will be forgotten, and they will be put to death because of their sins.

You people of Israel accuse me of being unfair! But listen--I'm not unfair; you are!

If good people start doing evil, they must be put to death, because they have sinned.

And if wicked people start doing right, they will save themselves from punishment.

They will think about what they've done and stop sinning, and so they won't be put to death.

But you still say that I am unfair. You are the ones who have done wrong and are unfair!

I will judge each of you for what you've done.

So stop sinning, or else you will certainly be punished.

Give up your evil ways and start thinking pure thoughts. And be faithful to me!

Do you really want to be put to death for your sins? I, the LORD God, don't want to see that happen to anyone. So stop sinning and live!"   (Ezekiel 18:20-32)

I don't know about others, but I have gone through times in my Christian walk where I have been living in open rebellion to Him - either because of giving in to temptation or from being angry with God. I was especially angry with God after my nervous breakdown. I know though, that all through these times, the Holy Spirit was working overtime to draw me away from my rebellion.  Conviction always won out - the Holy Spirit has always succeeded in drawing me back.

But what if I had resisted the work of the Holy Spirit? What if I had continued in my rebellion?  What if I had died in my state of rebellion?

Well, I see God's preservation during those times of rebellion as just one more evidence of His amazing grace!  He did not let me die in my state of rebellion! 

But, the question begs to be asked... does He ever let a Christian die in a state of rebellion?  And if He does, doesn't Ezekiel 18:20-32 lead us to believe that such people will perish?

We know that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  We know that as long as we have life and breath we have the opportunity to repent.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

But is the converse true? If we refuse/fail to confess our sins will we remain unforgiven and uncleansed?

In those times when I was in open rebellion to God the Holy Spirit definitely convicted me that I was treading on dangerous ground. I had the definite sense that I had better get back on the right track - or else. Or else what? I had the definite sense that the salvation of my soul was at stake if I didn't turn back to God.  It was a loving God calling me to return to the salvation of my soul. 

But why would the Holy Spirit warn me if there was nothing to fear?  If I could not lose my salvation, why should I have been concerned about my rebellion?

Perhaps this Scripture from Hebrews addressing believers holds the answer:

"See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."And this word, "Yet once more," signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, so that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, for also, "Our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:25-29)

So, I said I was gone, but now I'm back.  I don't have the time to write answers to several of the questions above, but since I don't have the time, I wanted to point you all to a pretty great resource to help with some of the above topics (but definitely not all). 

At my church several months ago, Tim Keller gave a talk on "Does God Control Everything?".  I thought it was really good and hopefully it will be thought provoking for a lot of you as well.  Check it out here. You can get the mp3 for $2.50.  It touches on a lot of the above topics way better than I ever could.

One other quick resource which deals with the topic of election can be found here.  I'm not trying to push it, just providing some more food for thought.

Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:29-32 
 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Luke tells us in verse 29  that blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is not forgiveable, thus this is the unpardonable sin as defined by the Bible Scripture .

 In verse 30 Luke also defines what the unpardonable blaspheming sin is.  Timothy tells us that only those that do this in unbelief can ,obtain mercy.

Therefore, an unbelieving sinner or one that has not accepted Jesu Christ as it were and is not aware of what he has done in blaspheme agaisnt the Holy Ghost is not subject to unforgiveness.

 Logic would then dictate that only a saved person could commit the unpardonable sin, and that the saved person would have to know what he has done. This is obiviously a possible occurrence  for a saved person,  if not, for what other purpose could there be for even mentioning, or warning about the possibibilty of committing that sin?

All Holy Scripture is for reproof and correction....

The beauty of "blogging" is found in the exchange of thoughts and perspective without the pre-emptiveness of judgmental thinking.  I honestly enjoy reading the various predictable positions and the open ended ones too.  Awesome dialogue folks... this is what makes the body of Christ so incredibly united and so incredibly diverse.

I do wish to state that I whole heartedly agree with Jonathan Thomas that it is imperative to view doctrinal positions from a wholistic view (Old and New Testament).  The reason that this is important can be found in the "intertwining" of thought within the Old and New Testament.  Many times, one can find in Matthew the phrase, "that it might be fulfilled"... which in turn reveals Old Testament roots in that given passage.  On the other hand, one can find that in Genesis 3:15 there is mention of an awesome truth that later can be found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.  Hence, as Jonathan adamently purports, it is sound doctrine to attempt a wholistic view of given doctrines by approaching them from an Old/New Testament understanding.

In closing, as this blog may continue for quite some time, I would like to say that it was my fifteen year old son that began this blog.  He will be leaving on a mission trip to Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary in the Fall... praise the Lord!  I am honestly proud of him and his willingness to launch out on "risky blogs" in order to grasp a better understanding of how the body of Christ responds to such questions.

I have taught both my boys the importance of leading with open hearts and minds when it comes to the scripture.  I do warn them that there are those who claim Calvinism as a cloak for sin.  Hence, such persons can live like the devil, behave like the devil, and even look like him; but, since they are saved, Grace covers it all.  Some how, I find it dangerours to have grace without holiness as part of our "salvation package."

On the other hand, I have also taught my sons that many who claim the Armenian form of thinking live paranoid spiritual lives wondering whether they "maintained" it well that day or "lost" their salvation because of some pet sin. Such individuals live in fear and tend to judge everyone who fails or comes short of their standard.  How sad! 

An honest evaluation of scripture reveals that you can "biblically" argue both sides quite well (as can be seen with some of the blogs above).  Hence, just for the sake of argument, how can one "merge" or "converge" or "triangulate" these two opposing positions and still maintain a biblical perspective?  Please, if you are going to argue one or the other, I already know your position.  Nonetheless, I would invite an honest response to this request...

I think JReed has a very good point, here.

Before we look at whether salvation can be lost or not, lets remember what salvation is and what the Christian life calls for.

I personally believe that there is a level of truth to all perspectives, and the fact that most perspectives attempt to come to their conclusions by seeing God in the best way they can, is a good thing.  Because while our heads may be getting things wrong, at least our hearts are on the right track.  That said, I don't think any of us will ever get it completely right; God is not a high school subject, he is GOD!  So, whatever you believe, believe it to glorify God as best your human mind can glorify anything--which probably isn't much--and make sure that He's the God of your life and that His heart comes before yours.  He's what's important here.  The rest is just details!

Clyde-

Jesus was speaking of the heart of the Pharisees when they directly attributed His miracles to the working of the devil. This was NOT out of ignorance, for they knew the scriptures concerning the coming Messiah and they were coherent of His fullfilling the scriptures in there presence. It was a total rejection of Him, and the Spirit who worked thru Him. The ultimate insult is to call the Holy Spirit (ie: God the Spirit) a satanic force. Their condition was of a cold, hardened heart... Not a closed mind. Some say that this unpardonable sin was only applied to them and their day - I disagree. Can a born-again believer "blaspheme the Holy Spirit?" No... can a believer quench the Spirit? Yes...

You also say "Logic would then dictate that only a saved person could commit the unpardonable sin, and that the saved person would have to know what he has done. This is obiviously a possible occurrence  for a saved person"... your assumption then implies that the Pharisees were actually saved/born-again! We all can agree that this was NOT the case!

Karl K-

your quotes from Hebrews are often used to promote a "staying saved" doctrine. To understand the passages and this book, you must first look at the audience to whom it was originally written. You also should be reminded of the two audiences that EVERY minister preaches to in a church setting - the "Saints & the 'Ain't's'"... the wheat & tares... the sheep & goats... saved and lost... I've NEVER seen a "trans-species" in the natural or spiritual realm.... you either ARE or you're NOT a born-again believer! The writer warns those who contemplate "turning back" towards Judaism, or away from faith (those who have a mind concept of Christ, but NO heart change or conversion). The writer then EXHORTS and ENCOURAGES the believers in this same assembly or congregation that they're NOT going back, but forward; that this is NOT you when you continue forward. Read Hebrews 6, for example, and let's look at this concept of rebuking ONE group while EXHORTING another group in the same assembly.

Hebrews 6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,^[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." (To the unsure, uncertain, unregenerated listeners or attendees of the assembly)

Hebrews 6:9-12 "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of^[c] love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. ( A word of encouragement and exhortation to the converted, born-again saint)

Look at the entire view of the Gospel writers and NT writers. Look at the words and parables of Jesus (Matthew 13 "The Parable of the Sower & Seed) and put the pieces of this answer together and you'll see the CASE FOR ETERNAL SECURITY!

Joel