Thanks, Mike, for your thoughtful response!  You are a very clear communicator. I think I fixed the formatting.  (I had forgotten to activate the html.)  Grace and Peace to you!

Hey Kathy, great blog. I look forward to following the thread. It's 12:30AM here in Columbia, Maryland...so I'd better call it a "night" and hit the hay. I'll catch up with you later.

God bless you sister,

Mary Ann

Kathy,

Well written. I am in your camp on this one. I have been all around the world and have seen women in leadership and women in bondage. The world does not give respect to what God created and said was "very good".  I have often wondered where we would be today if we treated the creation like the Creator intended. 

I also contend that Titus 2:4 is telling us that the men shouldn't be teaching the younger women about love...it becomes too tempting...

...but that view is not well accepted either...I will say this, where it happens, the teaching is best.

I wouldn't be in agreement with you, but I reserve the right to be wrong. :) I'd really have more of a problem with the PC USA being considered conservative. That's more of a stretch for me.

May God bless your efforts for Him. 

Thanks, Voice!  Travel is one of the best means of education of mind-broadening!  If every American had the opportunity to see the world, the U.S. would be much improved!  I appreciate your comment!

Dave, thanks for your comment.  Fortunately agreeing about details is not a prerequisite to being brother and sister in Christ!  (And - lol - About the Presby thing,  that was just an illustration, not my own denomination.  I doubt you would find it hard to consider the SBC conservative!)

God's blessings to you both!

In essentials unity, in non essentials charity, and in all things love.

 Love wins.

Blessings,

David 

Hello Sis. Kathy,

I too am part of the "the most popular view in Christian circles". i must side with Chris, on this one. not because it is a popular view, but because this is what the Scripture teaches. we do have deaconesses in our church...but only because their husband is a deacon. i still have a slight problem with this because the title Deaconess is never used in the scriptures(KJV). we simply use deaconess the same way we use Prophetess. a woman becomes a prophetess only if her husband is a prophet. if you notice Phillips daughters were never called Prophetess because they where never married. they only prophesied. Joel 2 gives them the authority to do this. the 11 chapter of Cor. explains this further. we must also take note; as far as i can see, never is there anywhere in the scriptures were a woman ever prophesied in the sanctuary or to a man. i stand to be corrected if need be. notice Phillips daughters; they prophsied but when a message had to be given to Paul, Agabus the Prophet gave him the word. to prophecy is to build up and edify the church...but through out the scriptures when God had to discipline the church he sent the Prophet, which was always a man. there are 5 misiterial offices for the church as outlined in Ephesians 4:11...these offices were always given to men...never do we see a woman in the scriptures holding one of these offices.

now with all this being said, i believe that women play an awsome role in the scriptures. i most certainly believe that they can take a leadership role within the church structure...but only where God or at the least God's Word allows them to be. Titus instructs them to teach the young women...Timothy teaches them not teach or usurp authority over the man.

Sis. Kathy, i beleive your role as a woman in the church is a whole lot more than baby making. at the bare minimum...the role of the virtuous woman is befitting. i applaude strong women in the church...but it takes a strong woman to submit to the man for it was God who made man the head and not the tale...the head of the house and the church.

respectfuly submitted, Bro. terry

Kathy,

I read over everything you said. When Paul talk about women being silent in the church, he was addressing a problem in the church at the time. Since women where not allow to be educated they would ask question by shouting to their husbands during service when they had a question. This cause a problem since women sit on one side of the room and the men on the other facing each other. Paul said this to keep order in the church. Speaking out in a church service unless it is open for questions, this still apply to all today both men and women. Women are well inform on the Word and I have learn from many women who have minister the Word. Man as head of the house does apply today, I do not thing many men understand this position and it will only work in a christian home. Men and Women are equal in the eyes of God. Men is not over the spiritual being of women. The Spirit part of a women is between her and God. I see alot of things concerning women I do not thing have been interpered right but it hard to bet organized religion.

Do not be discouraged. Just keep your eyes on the Lord and keep praying. God will answer all your question in due time.  Mike 

Brother Chris, Please read again. I did state that man is the head of the house but most men DO NOT understand their position and this will only work in a christian home.

That is the problem, men are not stepping up to the plate. Most churches today are mostly women and they want to do the will of God. God has not ordained it but He will use those who are willing.

Mike

Hi Kathy,

I have no desire to rule over anyone (man or woman). I believe in doing the will of God. I believe in the spirit of the law. Thank God we don't live under the letter of it. We have many strong Christian men in my church...I just bet Chris does too :-) We are blessed. There is, however, a void out there. God will fill it how He sees fit. If that is with a woman, AMEN!!!

I watched a movie about Mother Teresa’s life yesterday. What an AWESOME servant leader she was. She did not "rule" over any man...but, WOW did she serve His kingdom!!!

God bless you Kathy.

Love,

Thank you, Terry and Mike, for sharing your views.  You have both added richness this discussion! 

We're seeing from the responses here that this issue is not primarily about women's roles, but about interpretation of Scripture.  There is no such thing as reading without interpretation.  We all interpret, based on experience, education, age, maturity, and probably more than anything else, the interpretations of our past leaders.  Biblical interpretation means something different to everyone.  Some see the Bible (or perhaps one particular version of it) as primarily a  rule book for daily life in 2007 America.  This can be quite problematic, unless a large percentage of the Scripture is ignored.  The OT is filled with incredible stories and laws that will likely never be spoken from any pulpit, or taught in any Bible Study, and with good reason! 

I believe Biblical interpretation includes more than this.  Considerations like:  Where and when was it written?  What is the genre?  What was the author's original intent?  Why was he writing it?  Who was his intended audience?  What would their understanding of the passage  have been?  What was the cultural setting?   How does this fit with the rest of what the Bible teaches?  How would God want me to respond to it?  With a more thorough look at Scripture, we can get a much fuller picture and deeper appreciation for the God we worship and serve, and for how to respond to His Word in our own lives. 

The bottom line, though, in controversial discussions like this one is that we are not saved according to our theologies or how many verses of Scripture we can quote about issues, or even who is right or wrong.  We are all, regardless of our differences in belief, saved only by the amazing grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, not by works or by doctrines, lest any man should boast.  Thank you for stepping aside after presenting your view and for allowing others to present theirs.  This shows our respect for all believers.        

Mary Ann, I have the Mother Teresa  movie!  She was an amazing woman of God, focused solely on serving her Lord and Savior, despite all obstacles, and what a difference her one life made in the world!  She is one of my heroes of the faith!  And you are so right:  Any woman or man whose ambition is to "rule over" would do well to reexamine the life of Jesus.   In His love, Mary Ann!     

Kathy,

 You hit the nail on the head in section two of your above comment when you said considerations like, We must consideration all of these to understand the scripture. We can all agree to disagree and I respect the opinion of all my brothers and sisters in Christ and know we will not all agree on everything. Gentiles and Jews didn't and God loves them both. If we where under the old law now we would all be standing on the outside.

Mike

Kathy, this is an excellent post, bringing attention to an issue that has divided the curch and oppressed women for too long. 

My wife and I read a wonderful book several years ago by J. Lee Grady titled "10 Lies the Church Tells Women". I came across the following article based on his book, while doing a search only moments ago:

FOR CENTURIES, A PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM OF CONTROL HAS KEPT WOMEN IN SPIRITUAL CAPTIVITY THROUGH DISTORTION OF THE SCRIPTURES.  IT'S TIME TO DEBUNK THE MYTHS. 

By J. Lee Grady

We live in the 21st century, but if we're honest we have to admit that in some ways the church is still in the Dark Ages--especially when we look at the way we treat women.

Even though the Scriptures never portray women as secondary to men, our male-dominated religious system still promotes a warped view of female inferiority.  Women are tired of this, and as a man, so am I--because such demeaning attitudes don't reflect God's heart. 

Jesus challenged gender prejudice at its core when He directed so much of His ministry toward women.  In a Middle Eastern culture that considered women mere property, He healed women, discipled them and commissioned them to minister.  Yet today we spend much of our energy denying them opportunities--and using the Bible to defend our prohibitions. 

I've identified 10 erroneous views about women that for too long have been circulated in the church, preached from pulpits and written in the study notes of popular Bible translations.  I believe we must debunk these lies if we want to see the church fully released to fulfill the Great Commission. 

LIE #1.  GOD'S ULTIMATE PLAN FOR WOMEN IS THAT THEY SERVE THEIR HUSBANDS.

How sad that so many Christian men view women from a selfish perspective.  This view is often promoted by misreading the account of Eve's creation in Genesis 2:18-25, in which Adam is provided a "helpmate."   The Hebrew word used here often is translated "companion," denoting intimacy and partnership.  But through the centuries it has been used to imply that Eve was some type of domestic appendage. 

We men have assumed that God gave Eve to fulfill Adam's sexual needs as well as to serve as his cook, laundress and maid.  But the Genesis account does not say this. 

After Eve's creation, God did not tell her: "You are Adam's helper; I command you to serve him well."   She was not created for servitude; she was fashioned to be a co-laborer with Adam so that they might rule together over creation as God commissioned them to do (see Gen. 1:28). 

LIE #2.  WOMEN CAN'T BE FULFILLED OR SPIRITUALLY EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A HUSBAND.

From the time she was released from a German death camp in 1944 until her death in 1983, Corrie Ten Boom taught the world about a Savior who could forgive the cruelest Nazi.  Yet she never married.  Did the fact that she did not have a husband make her less "complete"?  Some Christians would say yes. 

We have spent so much energy defending the concept of the biblical family that we are guilty of idolizing it.   We've preached that a woman's primary responsibility is to find a godly husband, have lots of babies and stay home to raise them for Christ.  

But marital status is not a qualifier for ministry.  The Bible does not even state whether certain key followers of Jesus, such as the 12 disciples, were married or not. 

The highest calling of all believers--married or unmarried--is to develop a relationship with Jesus.  Any other earthly relationship is secondary, and Christ Himself warned us never to allow people we love to become idols that distract us from Him. 

LIE #3.  WOMEN SHOULDN'T WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME.

Many evangelical churches have preached that women who work outside the home are breaking a scriptural commandment, but this conclusion can be reached only by distorting the biblical record.  The woman described in Proverbs 31 is often used to bolster a traditional view of the June Cleaver-style matron who spends her day baking casseroles while her husband is at the office.  But a careful reading reveals that the Proverbs 31 woman, in her ancient Middle Eastern context, functioned as a real estate agent and ran a textile business. 

Titus 2:5 instructs women to "take care of their homes" (New Living Translation).  But most scholars would agree that this passage simply exhorts married women not to forsake their children. 

It is true that, because of ambition or materialism, some Christian women neglect their children even though the Holy Spirit has urged them to put their career objectives on hold.  But rather than placing a legalistic burden on women by telling them that having a career is ungodly, we should tell both men and women to submit their career plans to the Holy Spirit's direction. 

LIE #4.  WOMEN MUST OBEDIENTLY SUBMIT TO THEIR HUSBANDS IN ALL SITUATIONS.

A distraught Christian woman who was regularly beaten by her husband finally gained the courage to seek counsel from her pastor.  After she told him about her husband's fits of rage, the pastor responded, "If your husband kills you, it will be to the glory of God."

The pastor reached this irresponsible conclusion because of a distorted view of "male headship." We often portray marriage as a hierarchy, with husbands on the throne and wives at the footstool, and we use Scripture to justify this view: "Wives...submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord" (Eph. 5:22).

We assume this verse means women have no say in family matters or that their opinion is second-rate.  In extreme cases, women have been told to submit to abuse in order to honor male headship.  But this is not a Christian view. 

Paul also told the Ephesians, "submit to one another" (5:21, emphasis added).  I have heard teachings by male clergy on the subject of male headship, but I've never heard a pastor encourage men to submit to their wives! Yet in a loving marriage, a man and woman will defer to one another as they make decisions. 

In my 16 years of marriage, my wife and I have had plenty of disagreements.  But when we reach an impasse, I don't announce, "I am the head of this house, so what I say goes."   Rather, Deborah and I either agree to pray about the matter, or we choose to defer to one another. 

The point is never who is in charge.  I view my wife as an equal.  I am not "over her."   We function as one. 

LIE #5.  A MAN NEEDS TO "COVER" A WOMAN IN HER MINISTRY ACTIVITIES.

This idea came from a distorted interpretation of the apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 11:3, "the head of woman is man" (NKJV).  People have used these words to bolster the idea that women are subservient to men or that they cannot approach God without a male authority figure in their lives. 

Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 about head coverings is a difficult passage, and Bible scholars don't agree on its meaning.  However, most teach that Paul is addressing specific cultural concerns in first-century Corinth and that he is calling for propriety and order in a society where immorality and paganism had blurred gender distinctions. 

Paul was not placing men in a position of generic rulership over women.  Because there is "no male or female in Christ" (see Gal. 3:28), women can pray, worship, study the Bible or minister without a man present.  How silly to think that a man, because of his gender, could add credibility to prayer or Spirit-empowered ministry! To believe this would be to trust in the flesh. 

LIE #6. A WOMAN SHOULD VIEW HER HUSBAND AS THE "PRIEST OF THE HOME."

Search your concordance.  Scripture never describes men as "priests of the home."   This man-made concept was popularized in evangelical churches in the last century.  We have one priest, Jesus Christ, whose blood atoned for our sins.  It is a mockery of the gospel to suggest that any human being needs an additional priest apart from the Son of God.

The Bible says all believers are priests (see 1 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 1:6); there is no gender restriction.  Husbands function as priests when they pray for their families or when they minister the Word of God to them, and wives also function in this role. 

My experience in marriage has been that God speaks both to me and to my wife.  He doesn't say to me, "Since you are the head of this house, I'll tell you my plans for your family, and you can tell the others what I said."   Often God has revealed His plans to my wife before I heard anything!

Christian men need to stop being defensive and recognize that God has called us to function in unity with our wives.  We need to listen to their counsel, consider their opinions, and pray together for the mind of the Lord rather than putting our foot down and shouting, "I am the leader of this family, and what I say goes!"  

LIE #7.  WOMEN ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO ASSUME LEADERSHIP ROLES.

The most common mistake we make in biblical interpretation occurs when we take one isolated verse and build a doctrine around it--even if the verse seems to contradict other passages.  This is often what we do with 1 Tim. 2:12, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man" (NASB).

Most theologians believe that this passage was addressing an isolated situation in Ephesus.  They came to this conclusion after studying the myriad of references in the Bible to women in spiritual authority.  The Old Testament records that Deborah was a judge over Israel--and God blessed her leadership in battle (see Judg. 4-5).  Other women who held authority over men include Miriam, Huldah and Noadiah. 

Jesus issued His first gospel commission to women (see Matt. 28:1-10), and both men and women were empowered to preach on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).  Priscilla, Chloe and Phoebe were leaders in the early church, and one woman, Junia, is called an apostle by Paul (Rom. 16:7).

The promise of the prophet Joel was that "sons and daughters" would prophesy after the Holy Spirit was given to the church (Joel 2:28, emphasis added).  Yet we have taken one misunderstood verse from Paul's writings and used it to negate hundreds of other passages that support the full release of women into ministry.

LIE #8: WOMEN MUST NOT TEACH OR PREACH TO MEN IN A CHURCH SETTING.

Since 1 Timothy 2:12 obviously contradicts the overall biblical endorsement of women in authority, how are we to understand it? What is Paul actually saying in this passage?

In their book I Suffer Not a Woman, Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger explain that certain cultic worship practices involving female priestesses of Diana had invaded the first-century church.  These priestesses promoted blasphemous ideas about sex and spirituality, and they sometimes performed rituals in which they pronounced curses on men and declared female superiority.

What Paul was most likely saying to the Ephesians was this: "I do not allow a woman to teach these cultic heresies, nor do I allow them to usurp authority from men by performing pagan rituals."   He was not saying, as some Christians have assumed, "I do not allow godly Christian women to teach the Bible."   In his day, Paul would have been thrilled to have had more skilled women who could teach the truth!

LIE #9.  WOMEN ARE MORE EASILY DECEIVED THAN MEN.

This idea has been taught by twisting the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:14, which says, "It was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (NLT).  Some have suggested that because Eve was tricked by the devil, women have a stronger propensity toward deception.  Others have gone so far as to insist that women are to blame for all the evil in the world and are therefore under a greater curse than men. 

No respectable Bible scholar in the church today would promote such a view.  The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were both held guilty by God for their disobedience, and they were both punished.  In 1 Timothy, Paul cited the creation account not to place extra blame on Eve but to refute a bizarre teaching that was circulating in Asia Minor. 

In the first century, Gnostic heretics were mixing Christianity with paganism.  One of their teachings stated that Eve actually liberated the world when she disobeyed God and gained secret knowledge from the devil. 

Paul was not teaching that women are more prone to deception.  He was explaining that what Eve did was not right, and that the Christian view of the creation was that Adam and Eve sinned when they listened to the serpent. 

Women are certainly capable of spreading deception because they have a fallen nature as men do, but there is no evidence that they have greater gullibility.  That view is rooted in demeaning stereotypes and prejudice. 

LIE #10: WOMEN WHO EXHIBIT STRONG LEADERSHIP QUALITIES HAVE A "SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL."

Once I was listening to Bible teacher Cindy Jacobs speak at a prayer conference in Colorado.  When she approached the pulpit, two men who were sitting in front of me turned to each other and began to pray softly. 

"Lord, we bind the power of the devil from bewitching this audience," one man said, adding, "We bind the power of Jezebel in the name of Jesus."   These men believed that the crowd would automatically come under a spirit of deception when Jacobs taught them--simply because she was a woman. 

How absurd! Was Barak "deceived" when he took orders from Deborah? (See Judg. 4:14.) Did baby Jesus come under a harmful influence when Anna prophesied over Him? (See Luke 2:36-38.) Was Apollos spiritually emasculated when he submitted to the teaching of Priscilla? (See Acts 18:26.) Of course not!

To associate godly women with Jezebel, a wicked Old Testament despot, is unfair and offensive, yet men in the church today often pin Jezebel's label on strong, anointed women because they feel threatened by them. 

Let's stop the insults.  If a woman is using manipulation to usurp authority or if she is spreading heresies, then she certainly deserves the Jezebel label--as do men who do such things.  But women who walk in spiritual integrity and preach the Word of God with power deserve our respect. 

________________________
J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine, has enlarged on this topic in his book, Ten Lies the Church Tells Women.  It is excellent.

Illustration: David L. Clemons for "SpiritLed Woman."

In Gheezon comment the key word is "Western" We in the western part of the world are disconnected in the understanding of the Word by our mind set. The book Karl K. is talking about is very good.  The book brings alot of issues to the front.

Mary Ann, Where do you get all that wisdon girl? 

Mike 

Joel, you never cease to amaze me :-) You are definitely no stereotype...you are your own man...a man of God.

I noticed we lost Pastor Chris... ?

Karl, I ordered that book you are quoting from. thebrokenvessel recommended it on my brother Michael's blog too (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/11772/Male-and-Female-He-created-them----what-difference-does-it-make).

Faithrock...what wisdom? Were you addressing the bloger Kathy? :-)

love to you all,

Mary Ann

Dan, Karl, Mike, and Joel, Thank you all for adding such richness to this blog!  I am so honored to have met you!  Mary Ann, yes, it appears we lost Chris' comments, and somehow, when he  deleted them, we also lost one of yours, to which I think Faithrock was referring!  Fortunately your wisdom is intact without the comment!  :)   Maybe Chris will come back and repost!   Blessings to all of you!

I am a woman and the founder of united faith ministries i have studied for many years before deciding to become ordained. i went over those same verses over and over in my mind and i prayed on it all the time. then some one explained it to me, that in those times the customs of what ever people they were talking to had to be respected. I started U.F.M because i could not find a church that i was comfortable in the ones i had visited were to busy slandering one another and placing judgement on people to study the word of god. i do not have a denomination when im asked i simple say I'm a believer. i truely admire you i know i have gotten plenty of emails and letters and phone calls from people trying to put me in my place as they say even my own family has turned on me but thats ok God and Jesus is all I need may you always be blessed

Having did part of my college studies in Israel and visiting many countries in this world and a study of denominations in this country and visit many first hand for study purpose, I see the authority problem as who is in control.  We do need strong leaders in our churches today. Whoever they are.

Mike

Hello

I have a few questions of my own for you!

# 1 Does the Bible teach that I am to be under submission to all men in the church; or just my OWN husband?

#2. When are we in THE CHURCH? We say this as if we are only in church in a building... but the church is where we are gathered!!!! How can I prophesy and be quiet at the same time????

So then please tell me how a woman can prophesy with her mouth shut! 1Co 11:5 But1161 every3956 woman1135 that prayeth4336 or2228 prophesieth4395 with her head2776 uncovered177 dishonoreth2617 her1438 head:2776 for1063 that is2076 even all one1520, 2532, 848 as if she were shaven.3587

How are these two verses possible if he means for women not to speak at all? There fore the idea that what Paul is saying is for women to shut up is wrong....I can not shut up and prophesy!

#1 Your women - meaning your wives

#2  to speak - talk out loud in disrespect as many do even today!

 #3 they are to be under submission to thier own husbands..... not every man in the church!!! 

____________________________________________________________________

 These scriptures do not relate to the church but to the relationship between a man and his wife!

#1 a woman in this scripture means WIFE!

#2  usurp authority over the man ( husband)  means to DOMINATE!

Phobe was a deaconess of the early church, it's clear this is not a role that is limited to men, and in 1 Timothy 2:8 Paul encourages both men and women to pray and to prophecy. But he also gives both sexes special instruction, men shouldn't use prayer as a weapon in anger, and women shouldn't try to draw attention to their outward beauty when they pray.

The truth is that scripture encourages both men and women to exercise their spiritual gifts and be active in the Body, and the differences that are outlined in scripture are simply there to allow each gender to worship in their uniquely feminine or masculine way. Any discouraging words that try to squelch a woman being an active part of the body, comes from the Adversary, who has especially attacked women since the beginning (Eve), since she uniquely and beautifully images "The Church".

There are a few limits placed on women in the Church, but these small limits when properly understood in context, are not limiting to women, but rather free them to live as God designed.

When we understand what the Bible really says it doesn't hold us back, the Truth sets us free to be what God intended.

Cary, Thank you for your words about Phoebe.  It's nice to meet you, and I like your profile page!  UFM, Thank you for adding a part of your story here and  for your encouraging words.  I will pray for you on the 2nd and 6th.  Peace (that passes all understanding)! 

Shirley,

Hang on. Most of your questions have been answer in Karl K, Carystanle and Cathy and my blogs. No, a women is not under every man in the church. Not all women are married so not all are under a husband. The wife and husband are to be one with the man head of the house but as stated before this will only work in a christian home. Each church has a sherherd(pastor) over it sent by God who is responsible for the flock in his church. The church truely is not a building but the body of Christ. The women shut up thing  applied to what was going on in the church at the time. It was for church order(as stated in a blog above). You have spiritual gifts, use them sister! Your true covering is the LORD JESUS CHRIST for He is the one who died for your sins and was raised from the dead and shed His blood for you, so He is covering your you with His blood and you belong belong to Him. If you are married, God is just loaning you to your husband. The reason man is over the wife because he will have to ansewer to God for what happens in the home. In the garden of Eden,  God went to Adam first and ask "What happened"? 

Mike

When I was in Bible college, I was a supporter of the idea of women pastors.  I wrote a paper in defense of the position which received praise from the professor who was a national advocate for the ordination of women.  Since then, I have changed my position.  I understand all the arguments for women as spiritual leaders in the church.  I always thought Paul was writing to a specific church in a specific time about a specific problem and that his words were not intended for all times.  If that is true, Paul would have just addressed the problem and moved on.  Rather, his reasoning is given - he refers back to Adam and Eve.  The rationale behind his comments is universal in nature, not specific to a particular church or culture.  In fact, Jesus as well as Paul went against the common culture that degraded women.  Paul, through the Spirit, writes in Ephesians 5 powerful principles for marriage.  If the text is understood correctly, the husband has the greater burden to bear.  The wife is not called to love as Christ loves the Church.  The husband is commanded to lay down his life for his bride.  In fact, Jesus, gave women a special place unknown in society.  He had the opportunity to make an impact and name Mary Magdalene as an apostle.  But he does not.  Some say that was because it would have been too controversial.  But when did Jesus ever submit to a fear of controversy?

I think much of our struggle stems from a poor understanding of pastoral ministry.  We live in the day of pastors resembling corprate CEO's rather than servants.  Pastors are given a place of power and fame, when the Bible calls them to humility.  Many think that denying women the role of pastor is making women inferior.  That only makes sense if one thinks a pastor is a CEO.  In fact, I have nothing against a woman being president - or any political office of significance like Esther or Debroah - because the New Testament isn't addressing that.

In regards to Biblical interpretation, I agree this is the key issue.  We are tempted to want the Bible to better reflect our culture so we modify the Bible to fit our society rather than allowing the Bible to shape our society.  Yes, the Bible was written almost 2,000 years ago.  The issues discussed addressed particular issues in that day, but that does not change the extent to which they should direct our lives today.  Again, Paul does not just address a particular church in regards to the role of women - he gives the underlying principle that applies to that specific situation.  The underlying principle going back to Adam and Eve.

To follow this to an extreme, if the New Testament teaching on the role of women is to no longer apply to the 21st century, what else can we apply the same hermaneutic to?  Our society believes that all roads lead to heaven, that Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. all basically believe the same thing and can all go to heaven.  Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the Father but by me."  If we use the same rules of interpretation here as we do with Paul's comments to women, we would have to say that Jesus was only talking to first century Jewish people and those words are no longer to be taken as literally true for all times.

Again, I love my wife.  If you were to talk to her, I'm sure she would not say she feels oppressed.  I see the Bible used to oppress women today and it burns me.  The New Testament talks about elevating women and esteeming them - we see it in Jesus and the picture of marriage in Ephesians 5.  But, the New Testament still puts the charge of spiritual leadership - servant leadership -  on the men of the church.

Thank you for bringing this conversation to the table. 

This was an interesting dialog.  As a Contemporary Worship Leader in the UMC I have not run intoo this problem personally.  Most of the praise team is men and they seem fine with my leadership.  Of course, I believe in Servant Leadership and not a dictoral leadership.  I was formally involved in leadership in a different denomination that will not allow my friend to remain on the mission field if her husband dies (she is not yet married.)  She would have to leave her calling.  She would not be allowed to serve God as a widow.  So she remains unmarried.  Her calling to missions is HER calling.  I never understand why that would change in marriage or in widowhood should that befall her in the future.

As short handed as the Christian religion is without strong, outspoken, spirit lead people of faith - you would think this wouldn't be an issue.  We are loosing a battle in many fronts because people are not answering the call, they are not properly equiped for the call and they are struggling as they serve the call. 

People need to be saved.  We need revival within America and abroad.  Race, sex or creed doesn't matter.  What matters is "That none should perish but all have everlasting life!"

Is it really necessary that married couples have a "head", other than God?  In today's society, I don't think so.  This is obviously something that every couple needs to discuss before marrying, to be sure they are compatible.  If both husband and wife agree that the husband should be the head, then that is the best structure for that couple.  For another couple, however, a partnership may work best.  Two people who love the Lord and love each other can work this out, with God's help, in the way that works best for the couple.  I for one will allow them to do that. 

Spooksam, thank you for presenting your opposing view.  Although I do not see eye to eye with you on this issue, I respect your opinion and appreciate you adding it to the discussion.  Donna, you are so right that we get sidetracked on issues like this in the church, when our mission is to work together to build God's kingdom.  Tammy Jo, so nice to meet you.  I will check out your blog!  Joel, you are an encourager!  1 Thess. 5:11 is you!  Thank you!  And Sue, I wrote this blog for you and for the many others who are seeking answers on these issues!  Not to start a debate, or to see how many comments I could get, or to rant and rave about my own opinions, but to challenge us all to rethink some of the issues we have always just accepted without question.  It is not my wish that anyone should think as I think, but that we all prayerfully take our questions to God and seek HIS wisdom! Should we still come out with opposite views, we can still respect and love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.     

¡Gracias, Lourdes!  ¡Que Dios te bendiga!  ¿De qué país es tu familia?  Pastor David, thank you for your kind words.  Luther is one of my heroes!  What courage he had to follow his convictions, even when they went against church tradition, not so unlike the women issue today.  Shalom!  Michael, these blog comments need sound!  I bet you can sing a mean "Smelly Cat" too!    :)

So well said, Dan, and your timing is perfect.  Our pastor demonstrated this beautifully tonight at our Maundy Thursday service, as he washed the feet of one of our older men who is always quietly serving behind the scenes.  The church was full of sniffles and tears.  Servanthood truly has no agenda of hierarchy and no gender preference.  Thank you, Dan!  You are a wise man!

I am so grateful that no one has ever told me not to serve or not to lead.  I have been told by other Christian women to shut up, but no one in a genuine place of authority has ever told me not to use my gifts.  Praise the Lord.  That has got to be hard to endure.

I love Joyce Meyer's testimony, how she tried so hard for so long to do "right" and in the end had to follow God's calling -- and her message is so inspiring.  She has such a gift.

We go to a church where the leadership is primarily male, and it is very comforting in a society where many unchurched men have no role models, that we have been able to find a church that has brought out the best in my husband.  Our former church, lead by a primarily female leadership, was very empowering for me, but didn't do much for my hubby.  He was well-liked there, but there were no men for him to build fellowship with, and he desperately needed it.  It was a big time of transition in our lives, and we didn't realize a faith community could actually be someplace to find guidance.  I know that sounds like a no-brainer now, but our first church home together was more of a "come as you are" type of place, not so much a "seeker" kind of church.

We loved it there, but the kids and Steve AND I have been able to flourish at our new church home.  It was a long time finding it, though, and hard to leave our "first" church, because we loved them so much.

It is all about balance, though, you know?  And balance is such a personal thing.

Love,

Leslea 

Hooray,

I'm finally able to comment! I've looked a fairt bit at this area, I was in a group of churched who had a clear delineation of roles. Here's how I've found myself thinking...In a liturgical setting the Bishop and Priest are intended to be men because of theological reasons, they literaly represent Christ in the midst of the people, Christ was male, so in the greekconscept of representing, that person must, by nature, be male. This is the only real reason I've found for the distinction. Every other position, from apostle, deacon, etc. on, was held by women in the time of the early church, predatign the canonization of scripture. Using that line of thought, if one is not in a liturgical church, then there is no reason for any role within the church to be exclusive sexually. In our group of churches we tend to ordain people as couples more than any other way. Soem fo the other reasons that roles were made exclusive, in the early church, had to do with women being considerd more as property in that itme, also celibacy came into being during that some time. Celibacy for priests and bishops had as much to do with political reasons as any other, Constantine and his successors wanted to make the role "cost" something so fewer people would pursue it for political reasons, so giving up marriage led one to consider the cost in a unique and special way. most of these practical reasons were eventually covered up with pietistic reasons to make things sound good.

Dennis

Hey Kathy,

Ouch, sorry, I forgot to run spelllllllcheck......

Dennis

WOW again Kathy! You think very clearly as indicated by your blogs. No question you are anointed. LOVED the bible quiz too! I really like the way you laid this blog all out. It flowed beautifully. You are also very bold in your statements. I like how you mention that could be a form of idolatry for one to worship the bible more than God the father. It is ironic that Christ came to set us apart from the "law" and to show us a new way and here too many Christains still cling to law. Thanks for blogging. I eagerly look forward to more.

Craig  

I enjoyed reading your blog Kathy.  I do agree to follow what God wants us to do as Chirstian Women in working in our churches in ministry and not what man decides.  Keep your eyes on Jesus and not on Man. 

Suzy

Thanks for the encouraging words, Craig!  And for the Bible Quiz plug!  Suzy and Rockoutloud, so nice to meet you both!  Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I hope to see more of you soon!  May God use all of you today for His glory! 

Bible Quiz:  http://www.gotoquiz.com/ultimate_bible_quiz

Honestly, I think we fall prey to making things a lot more complicated and complex than they really need to be.  A woman in love with the Lord and called according to His purpose is going to be a tender-hearted woman, and things are going to hurt.  In our current era of "a woman can do anything a man can do, so stop your ego-driven chauvinist fascist patriarchal snobbery already!" feminist "empowerment", it's real easy to take something that has legitimately been abused in the past (keeping women out of ministry) and swing the pendulum too far the other way by putting women into all sorts of ministry, almost just to "prove a point".

I moderate an online fellowship, and I have both male and female "elders", for lack of better titles (as if they're needed anyhow).  The only reason I don't have a beef about this is sipmly because the title doesn't dictate the group being ministered to: the men teach and minister to who they are Biblically supposed to minister to, and the women teach and minister to whom they are supposed to minister.  When I have been present in groups, small and large, who are focused only on serving the Lord and the people in His Body whom they have in front of them to minister to, the issues that drag many down just don't come up.  I have been ministered to by married women, and I have ministered to both married and unmarried women.  Understand, I did not seek to minister to those, nor did they seek me out to minister to me, all cases were merely the way the Lord put them together in those instances at those moments.

Would I suggest that a woman deliberately choose a "function" in which she consistently ministers to single or married men? Absolutely not, as certain problematic things creep in the doors opened by that choice.  Likewise, I would absolutely not suggest that a man deliberately choose a "function" in which he was consistently ministering to single or married women, because temptations creep in and whole ministries are destroyed.  When Paul tells Timothy who he should be ministering to and for what purpose, he says nothing to him of teaching the young women, but rather says that he should have the older women instruct the younger women.  On the flip side, the one time you read of Priscilla ministering to a man (Apollos) -- as well as all the other times you hear of Priscilla -- it is always in the same breath as her husband, Aquila.  There are good practical reasons for both of those, but that's a digression...

I started by saying it's easy for us to make things more complicated, then I ramble for a few short paragraphs giving explanations...lol...looks like I'm not exempt either.

When it all boils down to it, women should not seek to elevate themselves in ministry, because if the Lord wants them to be elevated He will put them where He wants them.  The same SHOULD be the case with men also, but it's easier for a man to weasel his way into a position because people are expecting a man to be in that position in the first place.  Also, a woman should not be "negatively fueled" because they feel they are being "denied" a certain title or "rank": look at it like this:

Father
Son
Holy Spirit
Man
Woman
Child

Immediately, before I have given one word of explanation or illustration, some of you are already thinking "why does the woman have to come after the man? How chauvinistic IS this guy?"  Don't worry, I forgive you for your critical spirits. :)  Now, to my point.  Many people associate words with "how much am I worth?", and that's not at all how the Lord places authority in His spiritual economy. This illustration is one I heard in one of my Bible College classes...I'll make it short and sweet.  In the Bible we have certain groupings of authority for different "triads" of those involved -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for example -- and when those are all laid out one after another, they form the above "listing".  It doesn't mean that children or women are less valuable, less worthwhile, or less ANYthing than men are; it simply means that in the realm of authority, it's supposed to be a certain way.

The Son is submitted to the Father's authority; the Holy Spirit is submitted to the Son's authority; man is to be submitted to the Father, the Son and the Spirit's authority; the woman is to be submitted to the man's authority (and though the prior discussion about "to the husband or all men" was on the right track, those are not the only two options...grrr, that's another topic also); and the children are to be submitted to the men and women's authority.  It's not about "who's more valuable", but rather it works for the benefit of those in the line.  Another way of saying it: if someone is in authority over you, and something goes wrong, it falls on THEM, not on you...i.e. it's a form of protection, not of belittling.

If you are truly submitted to Jesus, and something goes "wrong", you can in all honesty look to Him, fold your arms and say with all seriousness, "Jesus, you've got a problem to work out".  Why?  Because He's your Master, and He's responsible for you.  In the same way, women, if you're being submissive to the authority of the men in your life (i.e. the Lord first, then your husband, then your pastor, and so on down the list -- so long as none are infringing upon the authority of the one(s) above them on that list), and something goes "wrong", it falls on them, not on you.

For those who want to fight for titles, the Lord will let them, just as He let the disciples bicker over who wasa going to be the greatest: by giving them a few simply words (that have been mentioned by a previous poster) and waiting for them to sink in...the one seeking to be first will be last, and the last will be first.  Those fighting for titles will often also be the ones missing out on all the real blessings from and relationship with the Lord.  :)  As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

We would all do well in our walks if we would simply remember not to over-swing the pendulum back the other direction on so many of these issues we face.  Several friends of mine have been encouraging me for some time to write a book about several of these issues we keep swinging the pendulum on...perhaps I will.  As usual though, in this subject as with so many others, the answer to the question is not as extreme one way or the other as the most vocal would have you believe, but rather is more in-between.  Of course women can serve in ministry, and be very productive servants; the Lord has just put that one restriction, that the women not be the head of the local congregation.  Is that difficult for some women to accept?  Of course!  Because that old rebellious nature is still inside saying "I know I have this stack of cookies here, but I want that brownie more because you said I can't have it!"  Don't worry though, men have just as difficult a battle to face, since the Lord expects us to step up and lead (even when we don't want to or necessarily "feel like it") as well as loving our wives the way Christ loves His Church -- can you possibly think of any more impossible thing for us to do than to love you women as the Lord Himself loves His Bride?

I cannot help but laugh at the guidelines He placed on the roles of men and women, not because they're absurd by any means, but rather because they're simply the opposites of what we would probably naturally do if left to our own devices.  Women -- who can do a much better job than men in many, many cases -- would fill ALL the voids (whether they existed or not...lol) left by the men, who are naturally more than happy to let the women do as much for them as they desire.  So what does the Lord tell us?

Jesus: "Hey, lazy man, get up, follow Me, and lead your family."
Man: "Aww....but football's coming on..."
Jesus: "Don't worry, I'd just make it so your team wouldn't win if you chose them over me anyways...[laughs]...just kidding."
Woman:  "You heard the Lord!  Get up and start leading!"
Jesus:  "It's okay, I can take care of this just fine, thank you."
Woman:  "Sorry Lord, just trying to help."
Jesus:  "You want to help?  Okay, how about you be submitted to him just as you are to Me."
Woman: "You can't be serious..."
Jesus:  "You said you wanted to help, that's your chance."
[Man and woman look at each other nervously]
Woman, after a moment:  "Can't I just help him a little?"
Jesus:  "You're supposed to help him a lot, but don't lead for him, let him do that."
Man:  "Yeah, woman, I'm the leader."
Jesus:  "Hey, you keep your eyes on ME, not on her.  The closer you follow Me, the easier it will be for her to follow you following Me.  And when she looks ahead at your leadership, she'll see Me ahead of you, and be encouraged."
Man:  "Sorry Lord....okay, that sounds good."
Jesus, to woman:  "And you, look past him to Me, and know that as he follows Me, you will not be led astray...I'll make sure of that."
Woman:  "Sounds good to me too."
Jesus:  "Good, we'll do it like that, then."
Woman, after a moment of walking :  "Lord, he walks funny...can I walk in front of him this time?"
Jesus:  "Oye, vay..."

 We're all still rebels to some degree or another.  The faster we can stop looking at each other and look back to the Lord, the faster we'll all get back to Kingdom business and away from our own petty bickerings and power-plays.  And that's always a good thing.  :)

In His service, and yours,
jason

As the scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.” This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. Ephesians 5:31,32 NLT

I understand your walk. Where I stand is that all those that have responded to God's calling will have to walk over the waters looking at Christ Jesus and as he was condemnd by the religious of his time so we, and specially us women. However, God is the One that is in charge and will deal with those that love more tradition and wordly concepts than Him.

Howard, I agree with your statement.  For example, I think we put far too much emphasis on ordination of deacons, etc., a practice that really does not come from Scripture.  We can find justification there if we go in with our preconceived notions of what ordination is, but man's ordination and being ordained by God are quite different concepts.  I'd be interested in hearing more of what you were thinking in your post.

THT, although your position is not one I adopt, it is pertinent to this issue, and I appreciate you taking the time to so thoughtfully present it here, as it is a quite popular one in many Christian churches.  I do agree that care should be taken in ministering to the opposite sex, so as not to lead either party into temptation, but I don't see this as an issue for women any more than for men, and I would not take this precaution to a legalistic point.  As a disciple of Christ, I look to the Spirit for guidance on these issues, and I do not automatically avoid ministering to or with someone solely because he is male.

Since I have already hit on this in my blog and in previous comments, I won't deal here with the issue of hierarchy, other than just to say I do not see that essential to the faith.  If both you and your wife feel this hierarchy thing is best for you, then perhaps it is.  But for many Christians, a partnership in serving Christ is far better in 21st century American culture.  You seem to have some passionate feelings about strong women.  I am not interested in "fighting for titles" or "power plays."  And I'm not sure if you would consider me in this category or not:  "a woman can do anything a man can do, so stop your ego-driven chauvinist fascist patriarchal snobbery already!" feminist "empowerment".  Wow!    I don't know what to say about that.  THT, as a woman, I am not interested in taking anything away from anyone else, nor are any sisters I have met in God's ministry.  I am interested in using the one life God has given me (which happens to be female) to serve Him as best I can in any way I sense His leading.  I suspect you are doing the same.  And although I believe even married women can take their leading directly from God, I would be curious as to what you would say of a single woman like me.  Should I get married just so I can have a "head," or should I at 45 years old continue living with my father?   THT, I am glad to have you as a brother in Christ!  That we are blessed to have, despite our differences of opinion.

Mujer, Gracias por sus palabras.  ¡Mucho gusto en conocerle!  ¡Dios les bendiga a todos de su ministerio! 

My perspective is that in Christ we are valued as persons with gift and callings that have been given by God and not by men.

 My perspective is that I follow the Bible teaching that says "Christ is the end of the law" (old covenant Mosaic Law) and now those that are in Christ live according to the law of His Spirit. That in Christ law there is no etnic, nor social-economics, nor gender or bioogical diferences (Gal. 3:28). Because we are clothed with Christ (Gal. 3:27). I do not sustain that man and woman are the same they are not we are different. They do not experience life in the same way, but they are equal for God as His children. (Gal. 3:27). The problem is not with God and His kigdom, the problem is with the wordly concepts which are under the power of Satan's anti-Christ frame of mind.

Some worldly concepts that are manifesting in the church are herarchy, legalism, patriarchy, chauvinism, lack of Christ revelation.

Genesis 1:27 says when God created human beings (adam not Adam) he created them in his imagen male and female. And God blessed them.

Man as in human kind not a  male person... of course this is a debate that I am not going to get into right now.  

This is a scripture that I believe no one can denied:

This only happened in Christ through the New Covenant of Grace

This was our condition out of Christ

Gracias por sus aportaciones que bueno que hay mujeres que se atreven a compartir lo que el Espiritu Santo les ministra.  

With Love in Christ

Thanks, Shannon!  Time, place, culture, purpose . . . all important considerations when reading Scripture.  And we can build a box for God (i.e set boundaries for Him), but He will not be confined to our understanding.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

The book we know as the Bible was not written as a book of rules for life in the 21st century.  The writers were inspired by God, and there certainly is much that can be gleaned from it to teach us how to live.  The Bible, however, is actually a compilation of 66 different inspired writings in several different genres by many different authors.  Some of these writings are personal letters.  Others are books of poetry, or allegory, or law, or history . . . The Old Testament books, written long before the time of Christ, are products of a time when women had very limited rights or freedoms.  They were largely confined to their fathers' homes and then to their husbands', considered inferior to men and under their authority, much as property.  Without a man, they were practically without identity.  And remember that ancient Israel was in a region of the world where many women are treated this way even today.  We, in contrast, live in a society in which women are seen in all walks of life, feasibly even as president.  We cut our hair and do not wear veils when we go out.  We sometimes wear gold and pearls.  We sometimes bring home the bulk of the household income.  We sometimes even choose to remain single.   The ancient writers, just as writers today, wrote to and within the confines of the culture of which they were a part.  None of the Biblical writers anticipated that their writings would be read, and basically worshipped, thousands of years later on the other side of the earth!  

I uphold the Bible as the inspired Word of God.  It is the record of God's revelation of Himself to man.  I believe that a responsible interpretation of each individual book involves several questions:  Who wrote it?  When was it written?  For what purpose was it written?  To whom was it written?  (Who was its intended audience?)  What genre is it?  What was the culture in which the author lived?, etc.  I revere, treasure, and cherish the Bible.  I read and study it with diligence (see my blog on Bible Reading), and it molds and shapes my life. 

I do not worship the Bible.  I study the Word because it points me to the One Who alone is worthy of my worship, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the Sustainer of all life, the Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent God of Abraham, Moses, David, and the Apostle Paul.  He alone is perfect and worthy of our worship.

Nor will I use the words inerrant and infallible, and here's why:  As a lifelong Southern Baptist, and one who was in the seminary during the final battles of the SBC controversy, these are divisive words in my experience.  At least in my denomination, they are politically charged words, used to divide God's children into factions, and they are ultimately meaningless, as everyone who uses them defines them for himself a little differently.  Do I believe the Bible is true?  Of course, but I do not equate "true" to mean that every word is (or was ever meant to be) directly applicable to our 21st century American lives.  The criterion by which I interpret the Bible is the life and teachings of Jesus, the Christ, the only begotten Son of God.  I avoid the "i words," because Jesus' final prayer for us (that we have record of) was for our unity, that we would be one in Him, not seeking to divide ourselves into factions.  If we are His children, we are all in the sheepfold, although no two of us sees things exactly the same.  Peace to you, my brother, and thanks for the question!  I appreciate that you hone my thinking!

'Excellentay!'  Truly the Spirit of the Lord has put His anointing on the words you have written in this blog... and on many of the comments here!  Perfect wording!!!  So very many need to read the wisdom which is being imparted through you, once again. Hope you don't mind sis... but am gonna try to link this blog to the blog I have been led to create for and from the body of Christ at ... www.mychurch.org/havingenteredintoGodsRest  under the section intended for:

Hi Kathy!

Like, YahsChild, I don't think there is much I can say that hasn't already been said. I do however have a passage that I often mention to women who struggle with their calling into ministry. If someone has already mentioned this, forgive the repeat. I must have missed it.

Let's take a look:

Matthew 28:5-7
Then the angel spoke to the women. “Don’t be afraid!” he said. “I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He isn’t here! He is risen from the dead, just as he said would happen. Come, see where his body was lying. And now, go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and he is going ahead of you to Galilee. You will see him there. Remember what I have told you.”

It looks to me like women can not only be called to be preachers, but in fact, they were the very first preachers! "go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead," Sounds like preaching to me!

I used to be adamant about women in ministry.  As God has humbled me of my Pharisical ways I have realized just as you pointed out, that there are just as many Scriptures that point to women in ministry as do not. I will say this though and it may be unpopular, but a woman is still be submissive to the head.  Whether that is her husband or the Pastor or even the Lord Jesus Himself.  But, I suppose that could be said of a man as well right?  Any way, I agree whole-heartedly about women in ministry with you, but I do think that it is a matter of conscience.  If we were to be very literal especially when it comes to being deacons or pastors the word is "he" and not "she" I believe Paul assumed that it would be a man under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of course. But, if God can use Baalam's donkey, if he wants to use me, or a woman, then who am I to say He can't?  God will use whomever is available to do His work.  I will say one thing so far in what I have seen in your writings you do not tread lightly in controversial issues.  Good for you!

Awesome job sister Kathy  All  things  were  made  for  the  Glory  of  God   Praise  the  Lord  that  you  are  open  to  Him. 

I  believe  there  is  no  perfect  religion  for  this  reason  that  we  have  to  look  to  God  for  the  truth  for  ourselves, to  have  a  personal  relationship  with  him  and  not  by  association  with  a  church.

Well, Kathy, you sure know how to write a blog..I'll give you that.

But, In Timothy(KJV), the bible says that women are to be silent in the church. How can we preach if we are to be silent? Although I believe women AREN'T called to be in charge, I DO, however, fully  believe that God uses us in other ways. I myself have been called to serve the Lord in the ministry but not in the same way as my father or youth pastor was. I think God's will for my life is to be a helper for my husband. To follow him and help in his church. Women are fully capable of working for the Lord, but i don't believe we are meant to have charge over the men.

But, I must say, I have been impressed by you.

God Bless