Thanks, Mike, for your thoughtful response!  You are a very clear communicator. I think I fixed the formatting.  (I had forgotten to activate the html.)  Grace and Peace to you!

Hey Kathy, great blog. I look forward to following the thread. It's 12:30AM here in Columbia, Maryland...so I'd better call it a "night" and hit the hay. I'll catch up with you later.

God bless you sister,

Mary Ann

Kathy,

Well written. I am in your camp on this one. I have been all around the world and have seen women in leadership and women in bondage. The world does not give respect to what God created and said was "very good".  I have often wondered where we would be today if we treated the creation like the Creator intended. 

I also contend that Titus 2:4 is telling us that the men shouldn't be teaching the younger women about love...it becomes too tempting...

...but that view is not well accepted either...I will say this, where it happens, the teaching is best.

I wouldn't be in agreement with you, but I reserve the right to be wrong. :) I'd really have more of a problem with the PC USA being considered conservative. That's more of a stretch for me.

May God bless your efforts for Him. 

Thanks, Voice!  Travel is one of the best means of education of mind-broadening!  If every American had the opportunity to see the world, the U.S. would be much improved!  I appreciate your comment!

Dave, thanks for your comment.  Fortunately agreeing about details is not a prerequisite to being brother and sister in Christ!  (And - lol - About the Presby thing,  that was just an illustration, not my own denomination.  I doubt you would find it hard to consider the SBC conservative!)

God's blessings to you both!

In essentials unity, in non essentials charity, and in all things love.

 Love wins.

Blessings,

David 

Hello Sis. Kathy,

I too am part of the "the most popular view in Christian circles". i must side with Chris, on this one. not because it is a popular view, but because this is what the Scripture teaches. we do have deaconesses in our church...but only because their husband is a deacon. i still have a slight problem with this because the title Deaconess is never used in the scriptures(KJV). we simply use deaconess the same way we use Prophetess. a woman becomes a prophetess only if her husband is a prophet. if you notice Phillips daughters were never called Prophetess because they where never married. they only prophesied. Joel 2 gives them the authority to do this. the 11 chapter of Cor. explains this further. we must also take note; as far as i can see, never is there anywhere in the scriptures were a woman ever prophesied in the sanctuary or to a man. i stand to be corrected if need be. notice Phillips daughters; they prophsied but when a message had to be given to Paul, Agabus the Prophet gave him the word. to prophecy is to build up and edify the church...but through out the scriptures when God had to discipline the church he sent the Prophet, which was always a man. there are 5 misiterial offices for the church as outlined in Ephesians 4:11...these offices were always given to men...never do we see a woman in the scriptures holding one of these offices.

now with all this being said, i believe that women play an awsome role in the scriptures. i most certainly believe that they can take a leadership role within the church structure...but only where God or at the least God's Word allows them to be. Titus instructs them to teach the young women...Timothy teaches them not teach or usurp authority over the man.

Sis. Kathy, i beleive your role as a woman in the church is a whole lot more than baby making. at the bare minimum...the role of the virtuous woman is befitting. i applaude strong women in the church...but it takes a strong woman to submit to the man for it was God who made man the head and not the tale...the head of the house and the church.

respectfuly submitted, Bro. terry

Kathy,

I read over everything you said. When Paul talk about women being silent in the church, he was addressing a problem in the church at the time. Since women where not allow to be educated they would ask question by shouting to their husbands during service when they had a question. This cause a problem since women sit on one side of the room and the men on the other facing each other. Paul said this to keep order in the church. Speaking out in a church service unless it is open for questions, this still apply to all today both men and women. Women are well inform on the Word and I have learn from many women who have minister the Word. Man as head of the house does apply today, I do not thing many men understand this position and it will only work in a christian home. Men and Women are equal in the eyes of God. Men is not over the spiritual being of women. The Spirit part of a women is between her and God. I see alot of things concerning women I do not thing have been interpered right but it hard to bet organized religion.

Do not be discouraged. Just keep your eyes on the Lord and keep praying. God will answer all your question in due time.  Mike 

Brother Chris, Please read again. I did state that man is the head of the house but most men DO NOT understand their position and this will only work in a christian home.

That is the problem, men are not stepping up to the plate. Most churches today are mostly women and they want to do the will of God. God has not ordained it but He will use those who are willing.

Mike

Hi Kathy,

I have no desire to rule over anyone (man or woman). I believe in doing the will of God. I believe in the spirit of the law. Thank God we don't live under the letter of it. We have many strong Christian men in my church...I just bet Chris does too :-) We are blessed. There is, however, a void out there. God will fill it how He sees fit. If that is with a woman, AMEN!!!

I watched a movie about Mother Teresa’s life yesterday. What an AWESOME servant leader she was. She did not "rule" over any man...but, WOW did she serve His kingdom!!!

God bless you Kathy.

Love,

Thank you, Terry and Mike, for sharing your views.  You have both added richness this discussion! 

We're seeing from the responses here that this issue is not primarily about women's roles, but about interpretation of Scripture.  There is no such thing as reading without interpretation.  We all interpret, based on experience, education, age, maturity, and probably more than anything else, the interpretations of our past leaders.  Biblical interpretation means something different to everyone.  Some see the Bible (or perhaps one particular version of it) as primarily a  rule book for daily life in 2007 America.  This can be quite problematic, unless a large percentage of the Scripture is ignored.  The OT is filled with incredible stories and laws that will likely never be spoken from any pulpit, or taught in any Bible Study, and with good reason! 

I believe Biblical interpretation includes more than this.  Considerations like:  Where and when was it written?  What is the genre?  What was the author's original intent?  Why was he writing it?  Who was his intended audience?  What would their understanding of the passage  have been?  What was the cultural setting?   How does this fit with the rest of what the Bible teaches?  How would God want me to respond to it?  With a more thorough look at Scripture, we can get a much fuller picture and deeper appreciation for the God we worship and serve, and for how to respond to His Word in our own lives. 

The bottom line, though, in controversial discussions like this one is that we are not saved according to our theologies or how many verses of Scripture we can quote about issues, or even who is right or wrong.  We are all, regardless of our differences in belief, saved only by the amazing grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, not by works or by doctrines, lest any man should boast.  Thank you for stepping aside after presenting your view and for allowing others to present theirs.  This shows our respect for all believers.        

Mary Ann, I have the Mother Teresa  movie!  She was an amazing woman of God, focused solely on serving her Lord and Savior, despite all obstacles, and what a difference her one life made in the world!  She is one of my heroes of the faith!  And you are so right:  Any woman or man whose ambition is to "rule over" would do well to reexamine the life of Jesus.   In His love, Mary Ann!     

Kathy,

 You hit the nail on the head in section two of your above comment when you said considerations like, We must consideration all of these to understand the scripture. We can all agree to disagree and I respect the opinion of all my brothers and sisters in Christ and know we will not all agree on everything. Gentiles and Jews didn't and God loves them both. If we where under the old law now we would all be standing on the outside.

Mike

Kathy, this is an excellent post, bringing attention to an issue that has divided the curch and oppressed women for too long. 

My wife and I read a wonderful book several years ago by J. Lee Grady titled "10 Lies the Church Tells Women". I came across the following article based on his book, while doing a search only moments ago:

Ten Lies The Church Tells Women

FOR CENTURIES, A PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM OF CONTROL HAS KEPT WOMEN IN SPIRITUAL CAPTIVITY THROUGH DISTORTION OF THE SCRIPTURES.  IT'S TIME TO DEBUNK THE MYTHS. 

By J. Lee Grady

We live in the 21st century, but if we're honest we have to admit that in some ways the church is still in the Dark Ages--especially when we look at the way we treat women.

Even though the Scriptures never portray women as secondary to men, our male-dominated religious system still promotes a warped view of female inferiority.  Women are tired of this, and as a man, so am I--because such demeaning attitudes don't reflect God's heart. 

Jesus challenged gender prejudice at its core when He directed so much of His ministry toward women.  In a Middle Eastern culture that considered women mere property, He healed women, discipled them and commissioned them to minister.  Yet today we spend much of our energy denying them opportunities--and using the Bible to defend our prohibitions. 

I've identified 10 erroneous views about women that for too long have been circulated in the church, preached from pulpits and written in the study notes of popular Bible translations.  I believe we must debunk these lies if we want to see the church fully released to fulfill the Great Commission. 

LIE #1.  GOD'S ULTIMATE PLAN FOR WOMEN IS THAT THEY SERVE THEIR HUSBANDS.

How sad that so many Christian men view women from a selfish perspective.  This view is often promoted by misreading the account of Eve's creation in Genesis 2:18-25, in which Adam is provided a "helpmate."   The Hebrew word used here often is translated "companion," denoting intimacy and partnership.  But through the centuries it has been used to imply that Eve was some type of domestic appendage. 

We men have assumed that God gave Eve to fulfill Adam's sexual needs as well as to serve as his cook, laundress and maid.  But the Genesis account does not say this. 

After Eve's creation, God did not tell her: "You are Adam's helper; I command you to serve him well."   She was not created for servitude; she was fashioned to be a co-laborer with Adam so that they might rule together over creation as God commissioned them to do (see Gen. 1:28). 

LIE #2.  WOMEN CAN'T BE FULFILLED OR SPIRITUALLY EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A HUSBAND.

From the time she was released from a German death camp in 1944 until her death in 1983, Corrie Ten Boom taught the world about a Savior who could forgive the cruelest Nazi.  Yet she never married.  Did the fact that she did not have a husband make her less "complete"?  Some Christians would say yes. 

We have spent so much energy defending the concept of the biblical family that we are guilty of idolizing it.   We've preached that a woman's primary responsibility is to find a godly husband, have lots of babies and stay home to raise them for Christ.  

But marital status is not a qualifier for ministry.  The Bible does not even state whether certain key followers of Jesus, such as the 12 disciples, were married or not. 

The highest calling of all believers--married or unmarried--is to develop a relationship with Jesus.  Any other earthly relationship is secondary, and Christ Himself warned us never to allow people we love to become idols that distract us from Him. 

LIE #3.  WOMEN SHOULDN'T WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME.

Many evangelical churches have preached that women who work outside the home are breaking a scriptural commandment, but this conclusion can be reached only by distorting the biblical record.  The woman described in Proverbs 31 is often used to bolster a traditional view of the June Cleaver-style matron who spends her day baking casseroles while her husband is at the office.  But a careful reading reveals that the Proverbs 31 woman, in her ancient Middle Eastern context, functioned as a real estate agent and ran a textile business. 

Titus 2:5 instructs women to "take care of their homes" (New Living Translation).  But most scholars would agree that this passage simply exhorts married women not to forsake their children. 

It is true that, because of ambition or materialism, some Christian women neglect their children even though the Holy Spirit has urged them to put their career objectives on hold.  But rather than placing a legalistic burden on women by telling them that having a career is ungodly, we should tell both men and women to submit their career plans to the Holy Spirit's direction. 

LIE #4.  WOMEN MUST OBEDIENTLY SUBMIT TO THEIR HUSBANDS IN ALL SITUATIONS.

A distraught Christian woman who was regularly beaten by her husband finally gained the courage to seek counsel from her pastor.  After she told him about her husband's fits of rage, the pastor responded, "If your husband kills you, it will be to the glory of God."

The pastor reached this irresponsible conclusion because of a distorted view of "male headship." We often portray marriage as a hierarchy, with husbands on the throne and wives at the footstool, and we use Scripture to justify this view: "Wives...submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord" (Eph. 5:22).

We assume this verse means women have no say in family matters or that their opinion is second-rate.  In extreme cases, women have been told to submit to abuse in order to honor male headship.  But this is not a Christian view. 

Paul also told the Ephesians, "submit to one another" (5:21, emphasis added).  I have heard teachings by male clergy on the subject of male headship, but I've never heard a pastor encourage men to submit to their wives! Yet in a loving marriage, a man and woman will defer to one another as they make decisions. 

In my 16 years of marriage, my wife and I have had plenty of disagreements.  But when we reach an impasse, I don't announce, "I am the head of this house, so what I say goes."   Rather, Deborah and I either agree to pray about the matter, or we choose to defer to one another. 

The point is never who is in charge.  I view my wife as an equal.  I am not "over her."   We function as one. 

LIE #5.  A MAN NEEDS TO "COVER" A WOMAN IN HER MINISTRY ACTIVITIES.

This idea came from a distorted interpretation of the apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 11:3, "the head of woman is man" (NKJV).  People have used these words to bolster the idea that women are subservient to men or that they cannot approach God without a male authority figure in their lives. 

Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 about head coverings is a difficult passage, and Bible scholars don't agree on its meaning.  However, most teach that Paul is addressing specific cultural concerns in first-century Corinth and that he is calling for propriety and order in a society where immorality and paganism had blurred gender distinctions. 

Paul was not placing men in a position of generic rulership over women.  Because there is "no male or female in Christ" (see Gal. 3:28), women can pray, worship, study the Bible or minister without a man present.  How silly to think that a man, because of his gender, could add credibility to prayer or Spirit-empowered ministry! To believe this would be to trust in the flesh. 

LIE #6. A WOMAN SHOULD VIEW HER HUSBAND AS THE "PRIEST OF THE HOME."

Search your concordance.  Scripture never describes men as "priests of the home."   This man-made concept was popularized in evangelical churches in the last century.  We have one priest, Jesus Christ, whose blood atoned for our sins.  It is a mockery of the gospel to suggest that any human being needs an additional priest apart from the Son of God.

The Bible says all believers are priests (see 1 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 1:6); there is no gender restriction.  Husbands function as priests when they pray for their families or when they minister the Word of God to them, and wives also function in this role. 

My experience in marriage has been that God speaks both to me and to my wife.  He doesn't say to me, "Since you are the head of this house, I'll tell you my plans for your family, and you can tell the others what I said."   Often God has revealed His plans to my wife before I heard anything!

Christian men need to stop being defensive and recognize that God has called us to function in unity with our wives.  We need to listen to their counsel, consider their opinions, and pray together for the mind of the Lord rather than putting our foot down and shouting, "I am the leader of this family, and what I say goes!"  

LIE #7.  WOMEN ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO ASSUME LEADERSHIP ROLES.

The most common mistake we make in biblical interpretation occurs when we take one isolated verse and build a doctrine around it--even if the verse seems to contradict other passages.  This is often what we do with 1 Tim. 2:12, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man" (NASB).

Most theologians believe that this passage was addressing an isolated situation in Ephesus.  They came to this conclusion after studying the myriad of references in the Bible to women in spiritual authority.  The Old Testament records that Deborah was a judge over Israel--and God blessed her leadership in battle (see Judg. 4-5).  Other women who held authority over men include Miriam, Huldah and Noadiah. 

Jesus issued His first gospel commission to women (see Matt. 28:1-10), and both men and women were empowered to preach on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).  Priscilla, Chloe and Phoebe were leaders in the early church, and one woman, Junia, is called an apostle by Paul (Rom. 16:7).

The promise of the prophet Joel was that "sons and daughters" would prophesy after the Holy Spirit was given to the church (Joel 2:28, emphasis added).  Yet we have taken one misunderstood verse from Paul's writings and used it to negate hundreds of other passages that support the full release of women into ministry.

LIE #8: WOMEN MUST NOT TEACH OR PREACH TO MEN IN A CHURCH SETTING.

Since 1 Timothy 2:12 obviously contradicts the overall biblical endorsement of women in authority, how are we to understand it? What is Paul actually saying in this passage?

In their book I Suffer Not a Woman, Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger explain that certain cultic worship practices involving female priestesses of Diana had invaded the first-century church.  These priestesses promoted blasphemous ideas about sex and spirituality, and they sometimes performed rituals in which they pronounced curses on men and declared female superiority.

What Paul was most likely saying to the Ephesians was this: "I do not allow a woman to teach these cultic heresies, nor do I allow them to usurp authority from men by performing pagan rituals."   He was not saying, as some Christians have assumed, "I do not allow godly Christian women to teach the Bible."   In his day, Paul would have been thrilled to have had more skilled women who could teach the truth!

LIE #9.  WOMEN ARE MORE EASILY DECEIVED THAN MEN.

This idea has been taught by twisting the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:14, which says, "It was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (NLT).  Some have suggested that because Eve was tricked by the devil, women have a stronger propensity toward deception.  Others have gone so far as to insist that women are to blame for all the evil in the world and are therefore under a greater curse than men. 

No respectable Bible scholar in the church today would promote such a view.  The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were both held guilty by God for their disobedience, and they were both punished.  In 1 Timothy, Paul cited the creation account not to place extra blame on Eve but to refute a bizarre teaching that was circulating in Asia Minor. 

In the first century, Gnostic heretics were mixing Christianity with paganism.  One of their teachings stated that Eve actually liberated the world when she disobeyed God and gained secret knowledge from the devil. 

Paul was not teaching that women are more prone to deception.  He was explaining that what Eve did was not right, and that the Christian view of the creation was that Adam and Eve sinned when they listened to the serpent. 

Women are certainly capable of spreading deception because they have a fallen nature as men do, but there is no evidence that they have greater gullibility.  That view is rooted in demeaning stereotypes and prejudice. 

LIE #10: WOMEN WHO EXHIBIT STRONG LEADERSHIP QUALITIES HAVE A "SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL."

Once I was listening to Bible teacher Cindy Jacobs speak at a prayer conference in Colorado.  When she approached the pulpit, two men who were sitting in front of me turned to each other and began to pray softly. 

"Lord, we bind the power of the devil from bewitching this audience," one man said, adding, "We bind the power of Jezebel in the name of Jesus."   These men believed that the crowd would automatically come under a spirit of deception when Jacobs taught them--simply because she was a woman. 

How absurd! Was Barak "deceived" when he took orders from Deborah? (See Judg. 4:14.) Did baby Jesus come under a harmful influence when Anna prophesied over Him? (See Luke 2:36-38.) Was Apollos spiritually emasculated when he submitted to the teaching of Priscilla? (See Acts 18:26.) Of course not!

To associate godly women with Jezebel, a wicked Old Testament despot, is unfair and offensive, yet men in the church today often pin Jezebel's label on strong, anointed women because they feel threatened by them. 

Let's stop the insults.  If a woman is using manipulation to usurp authority or if she is spreading heresies, then she certainly deserves the Jezebel label--as do men who do such things.  But women who walk in spiritual integrity and preach the Word of God with power deserve our respect. 

________________________
J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine, has enlarged on this topic in his book, Ten Lies the Church Tells Women.  It is excellent.

Illustration: David L. Clemons for "SpiritLed Woman."

In Gheezon comment the key word is "Western" We in the western part of the world are disconnected in the understanding of the Word by our mind set. The book Karl K. is talking about is very good.  The book brings alot of issues to the front.

Mary Ann, Where do you get all that wisdon girl? 

Mike 

Kathy-

For way too long, women have been treated as second-class citizens in the church. Paul's writings on this controversial issue was intended for the proper relationship between husbands & wives to be mirrored in a worship environment that were supposedly established in their private homes. Some of the anarchy he addressed in the churches was a result of anarchy in the homes of the parishoners. Men in prominance have used and manipulated scriptures to degrade and silence women thru the ages. Shame on us for doing so!

Joel

Joel, you never cease to amaze me :-) You are definitely no stereotype...you are your own man...a man of God.

I noticed we lost Pastor Chris... ?

Karl, I ordered that book you are quoting from. thebrokenvessel recommended it on my brother Michael's blog too (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/11772/Male-and-Female-He-created-them----what-difference-does-it-make).

Faithrock...what wisdom? Were you addressing the bloger Kathy? :-)

love to you all,

Mary Ann

Dan, Karl, Mike, and Joel, Thank you all for adding such richness to this blog!  I am so honored to have met you!  Mary Ann, yes, it appears we lost Chris' comments, and somehow, when he  deleted them, we also lost one of yours, to which I think Faithrock was referring!  Fortunately your wisdom is intact without the comment!  :)   Maybe Chris will come back and repost!   Blessings to all of you!

I am a woman and the founder of united faith ministries i have studied for many years before deciding to become ordained. i went over those same verses over and over in my mind and i prayed on it all the time. then some one explained it to me, that in those times the customs of what ever people they were talking to had to be respected. I started U.F.M because i could not find a church that i was comfortable in the ones i had visited were to busy slandering one another and placing judgement on people to study the word of god. i do not have a denomination when im asked i simple say I'm a believer. i truely admire you i know i have gotten plenty of emails and letters and phone calls from people trying to put me in my place as they say even my own family has turned on me but thats ok God and Jesus is all I need may you always be blessed

Having did part of my college studies in Israel and visiting many countries in this world and a study of denominations in this country and visit many first hand for study purpose, I see the authority problem as who is in control.  We do need strong leaders in our churches today. Whoever they are.

Mike

Hello

I have a few questions of my own for you!

# 1 Does the Bible teach that I am to be under submission to all men in the church; or just my OWN husband?

#2. When are we in THE CHURCH? We say this as if we are only in church in a building... but the church is where we are gathered!!!! How can I prophesy and be quiet at the same time????

^{So then please tell me how a woman can prophesy with her mouth shut!} 1Co 11:5 But^{1161 every3956 woman1135 that prayeth4336 or2228 prophesieth4395 with her head2776 uncovered177 dishonoreth2617 her1438 head:2776 for1063 that is2076 even all one1520, 2532, 848 as if she were shaven.3587}

^{How are these two verses possible if he means for women not to speak at all? There fore the idea that what Paul is saying is for women to shut up is wrong....I can not shut up and prophesy!}

^{#1 Your women - meaning your wives}

^{#2  to speak - talk out loud in disrespect as many do even today!}

 ^{#3 they are to be under submission to thier own husbands..... not every man in the church!!!} 

____________________________________________________________________

 These scriptures do not relate to the church but to the relationship between a man and his wife!

^{#1 a woman in this scripture means WIFE!}

^{#2  usurp authority over the man ( husband)  means to DOMINATE!}

Phobe was a deaconess of the early church, it's clear this is not a role that is limited to men, and in 1 Timothy 2:8 Paul encourages both men and women to pray and to prophecy. But he also gives both sexes special instruction, men shouldn't use prayer as a weapon in anger, and women shouldn't try to draw attention to their outward beauty when they pray.

The truth is that scripture encourages both men and women to exercise their spiritual gifts and be active in the Body, and the differences that are outlined in scripture are simply there to allow each gender to worship in their uniquely feminine or masculine way. Any discouraging words that try to squelch a woman being an active part of the body, comes from the Adversary, who has especially attacked women since the beginning (Eve), since she uniquely and beautifully images "The Church".

There are a few limits placed on women in the Church, but these small limits when properly understood in context, are not limiting to women, but rather free them to live as God designed.

When we understand what the Bible really says it doesn't hold us back, the Truth sets us free to be what God intended.

Cary, Thank you for your words about Phoebe.  It's nice to meet you, and I like your profile page!  UFM, Thank you for adding a part of your story here and  for your encouraging words.  I will pray for you on the 2nd and 6th.  Peace (that passes all understanding)! 

Shirley,

Hang on. Most of your questions have been answer in Karl K, Carystanle and Cathy and my blogs. No, a women is not under every man in the church. Not all women are married so not all are under a husband. The wife and husband are to be one with the man head of the house but as stated before this will only work in a christian home. Each church has a sherherd(pastor) over it sent by God who is responsible for the flock in his church. The church truely is not a building but the body of Christ. The women shut up thing  applied to what was going on in the church at the time. It was for church order(as stated in a blog above). You have spiritual gifts, use them sister! Your true covering is the LORD JESUS CHRIST for He is the one who died for your sins and was raised from the dead and shed His blood for you, so He is covering your you with His blood and you belong belong to Him. If you are married, God is just loaning you to your husband. The reason man is over the wife because he will have to ansewer to God for what happens in the home. In the garden of Eden,  God went to Adam first and ask "What happened"? 

Mike

When I was in Bible college, I was a supporter of the idea of women pastors.  I wrote a paper in defense of the position which received praise from the professor who w