I am proud to be giving my small group leader a star :)  

Amen Jeff.  Look forward to learning and hearing more in our topical discussions...

Beautifully said - and oh so true.

I'd like to add this:

Not Another Dime

Your blog inspired me to post a new blog of my own on the subject of Bible Pacifism. Be sure to give it a look!

I'm going to take the middle on this one also, like I have on several others. As a father of a son injured in Iraq, i will tell you that I am a supporter of the war, but it doesn't mean this isn't a hard issue, with good people on both sides. I love the movie "the Mission", it let's each side have it's place. What I love 4even more is tha we live here, where we can have these opinions. In fact, it kind of brings to mind an old song by Larry Norman, probably off thread, but I'll post in anyway!

Larry Norman - The Great American Novel

i was born and raised an orphan
in a land that once was free
in a land that poured its love out on the moon
and i grew up in the shadows
of your silos filled with grain
but you never helped to fill my empty spoon

and when i was ten you murdered law
with courtroom politics
and you learned to make a lie sound just like truth
but i know you better now
and i don't fall for all your tricks
and you've lost the one advantage of my youth

you kill a black man at midnight
just for talking to your daughter
then you make his wife your mistress
and you leave her without water
and the sheet you wear upon your face
is the sheet your children sleep on
at every meal you say a prayer
you don't believe but still you keep on

and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the russians to the moon
and i say you starved your children to do it

you are far across the ocean
but the war is not your own
and while you're winning theirs
you're gonna lose the one at home
do you really think the only way
to bring about the peace
is to sacrifice your children
and kill all your enemies

the politicians all make speeches
while the news men all take note
and they exagerate the issues
as they shove them down our throats
is it really up to them
whether this country sinks or floats
well i wonder who would lead us
if none of us would vote

well my phone is tapped and my lips are chapped
from whispering through the fence
you know every move i make
or is that just coincidence
well you try to make my way of life
a little less like jail
if i promise to make tapes and slides
and send them through the mail

and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the russians to the moon
and i say you starved your children to do it
you say all men are equal all men are brothers
then why are the rich more equal than others
don't ask me for the answer i've only got one
that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son

Like everything else in this world there has to be balance. You can't preach Bible pacifism and ignore the 1,000s of battles in the Bible. You cannot preach Jesus as a peace lovin' hippie and ignore the fact that when He comes to Earth again, He's coming to "pick a fight."

We had a missionary come through that had been to Bahgdad (spelling?) shortly after the conflict began. They were able to establish two Baptist churches there. The comment that remains with me is that he said, "Had the US not gone in, we would have never been able to evengelize in this country." Priovious attempts had lead to certain death. Christians were not allowed.

Our church had several men who went and returned. I know people who have gone and not come back.

How would Jesus have felt in the year 1776? Would He have told Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and Revierre to just sit back, make peace not war? Don't forget that this great country that allows you the freedom to hold such views was in fact born out of a war for Her own independence.

Not all war is bad and not all peace is good. If you stand by and keep your peace when given an opportunity to tell someone their going to Hell if they don't know Jesus; you have blood on your hands.

We have been called into a ministry of reconciliation, no doubt.

I look forward to the follow up, this will be passionate I am sure.

Bro Chris  

Just a question with the first paragraph of this blog: Do we really believe that most American Evangelical Christians (AECs) are actually "against people speaking out against the war" in Iraq?  I have a hard time believing this is true.  All believers I know are basically in favor of freedom of speech and expression, even dissention.  ~mike

ps... Please don't automatically stamp me as a war supporter, it just seems I've been grouped with others, and I'm questioning one of the assertions about that group!

If you have found nothing worth fighting to keep, then you have found nothing worth keeping.

I assure you, if someone broke into my home and began to hurt my family, I would do everything in my power to make them stop, even if it meant I had to commit extreme violence against them.

You can take that to bank. 

Other than the many scripture references at my blog entry on Bible Pacifism (which I referred to earlier in this blog), I have not seen any scriptural support for opposing positions that would prove that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior approves of wars or any form of violent self-defense.

Ultimately, I am a sheep, and Jesus is My shepherd and protector - not myself, not the police, and not the military!  The safest course for me is to live according to His will!     

We are not to have such a hold on this world that we would stoop to killing another to preserve our "rights", possessions, or fleeting existence on this planet.

I'll bite...there are many...however, since you have clearly made up your mind that you are right, nobody is bothering to discuss it.  Here is one...

Or:

It would appear to me that we are to submit ourselves to the authority God has placed over us in the form of Government. Should that Government decide to go to war...

Brother Chris

This is a great discussion so far, and I think that the issue of the war gives us as an opportunity as Christians to examine our theology ever more deeply and motivate us to serve our neighbors better.

When I read what people have said so far, there is much that I can affirm even if it comes from people who are disagreeing with one another. It's not because I want everyone to get along in a "let's forget our differences and issues and just love one another" kind of way. Rather, it is because there is a built in "tension" (or "paradox") of living the Christian life that the Bible affirms, and people here are affirming different aspects of that tension. Without trying to leave anyone in particular out (and without getting into a debate about the merits of the Iraq war), I agree with Jhop that we should not substitute an "American Civil Religion" for Christianity and with Karl K that we should mourn the lives of the many young soldiers and innocent Iraqis that have been lost, while at the same time I affirm what voice_in_dc says about governmental authority and the command to submit to it (it is noteworthy that Paul wrote those verses under Roman rule!) as well as The WYATT's broader point about there being such a thing as a just war. This tension comes about because we are both citizens of America (I think we're all Americans, anyway!) and citizens of the Kingdom of Christ. We are "in the world" but not "of the world." Jesus said

and

An article that I have found very helpful seems good to link to here. It is not only applicable to the issue of war---rather, it is more broadly talking about how Christianity and culture relate to one another and the implications for us both as individual Christians and as part of the Church. We should not seek to put culture above Christianity, put Christianity above culture or keep Christianity and culture separate. Rather, God rules over both the "spiritual" and "temporal" realms, but His rule in one realm differs from His rule in the other. I invite you all to read it, because I think that it will provide a lot of food for thought about a lot of important issues (including all that has been brought up here so far).

"Christianity & Culture: God's Double Sovereignty" by Dr. Gene Edward Veith

Hey Jeff,

I do want to make sure you understand that even though I may be more pro this war than many, I also want ot make sure that you understand how much I believe that people like you should question the war. I also need people like you to put teeth in you discontent by doing the same things that meny of the prop war people are doing, volunteering. In the VA and at Bethesda, and at the Fisher houses, and at all those other venues, you should be supportign all those who are doing the "dirty work". I will tell you that one of the differences in the societal impact of this war is people supportign the troops and thier support people. I can respect John Mellencamp, even though he may have turnedd out a record questioning the war, he also gets out there and visits and helps raise money. We want things to be black and white, this is a weakness of the western mindset of theology, we want there to be a right and wrong, and absolute answer to every aspect of faith and theology. But, what if some things don't have clear cut absolute answers? Are there areas of faith that cannot be written in stone, or even in clay? How do we approach each other when there are areas of faith where both answers have a level of validity? As the father of a wounded warrior I have a great level of pride in our military, and the true sacrifices that these young men and women make, would it be so that those in the Curch would be so dilligent to train, to sacrifice, or to have the ability to rely on each other for their very life. Would it be so that we would believe so firmly that we would literaly and figurativly throw ourselves on a grenade for each other, or in the case of many of our young men and women, for strangers in another country. This would again turn the world over, just like the early Church turned it over. May God have mercy that we could become true warriors for Him!

Dennis

Violence is not required to overcome a violent attack!

Restraining someone without attempting to cause them physical harm is non-violent.  As I stated previously, I had to stand in the face of danger many times in my job as a Night Supervisor/Chaplain at a homeless shelter - and tho' I had to restrain many a violent drunk or drug addict, I never caused them any physical harm.

Since cowardice is the opposite of courage, I thought I'd give this dictionary definition of courage:

cour·age (kûr'ĭj, kŭr'-)
n.
The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution.

[Middle English corage, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *corāticum, from Latin cor, heart.]

So, if a person uses their body to shield or restrain someone from commiting a violent act, is that cowardice?  If a person tries to prayerfully and wisely talk to or reason with an aggressor, is that cowardice?

You seem to imply that seeking a non-violent solution to conflict should be equated with cowardice.  I don't understand. 

Would you also imply that retreat in the face of violently overwhelming odds is cowardice?  Many a wise person has wisely retreated under such circumstances, only to survive and achieve a peaceful solution later on.

Dying a violent death for non-violently standing in the face evil is the history of the apostles and the many saints who were martyred - and the record of their deaths stands as one of the greatest examples of courage in the history of mankind. 

I believe they were following the example of someone named Jesus Christ.  Why not try quoting Him, instead of John Stuart Mill?

As for WWI and WWII, I don't claim to have the omniscience to be able to say what would have happened had the world attempted to deal with Japan and Germany in a non-violent manner.  We will never know.

Dear ones,

I knew that my blog would probably generate discussion. But I am very surprised and disappointed at the tone of some of the comments.  I would hope that we could discuss important issues like this respectfully with one another.  I know Jesus was not afraid to use harsh language when he addressed the Pharisees of his day, but I would remind all of us that we are not Jesus (and if you are like me, you are probably more like a pharisee than you are like Jesus).

Like I said in my blog, "I am the first to admit this is me".  I am an American Evangelical Christian. Most people would label me a conservative republican.  I am a big fan of Rush Limbaugh (since 1992). I am not a pacifist. I cheered when we took the Taliban down.  I celebrated when Saddam was captured.  I am thankful that my Grandfather served in WWII.  He was in the Pacific and would have been part of the army charged with taking Japan by land, if Truman had not dropped the A Bombs.  I know that there are wolves, and I am thankful for the sheepdogs (sons of some of the commentors on this blog) as well as the Good Shepherd who protects me. My head is not in the sand.  I see clearer today than ever, but I also know that I am blind in comparison to what God sees.

However, in recent months through prayer, reading and much thought, my views on many of the things I took for granted are progressively changing. I think if we took an honest look at scripture and the life and teachings of Jesus as well as our highest American ideals of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, we would all question our allegiance to this unilateral pre-emptive war in Iraq. This doesn't mean that we do not support our troops or do not support our President.  Despite popular belief, you can support the President and disagree with him.  

First of all, modern warfare has too much collateral damage, and that should be reason enough for us to make sure that it is the last thing we turn to.  Especially, when there were international law and alternatives in place prior to the war.  Too many innocent Iraqis are losing their lives on a daily basis. Not only that the apparent nature of the "enemies" tactics makes collateral damage unavoidable.  They are willing to set up shop in Mosques and apartments. How do our soldiers know who to go after? 

This does not mean that we should "cut and run".  We have created the mess, and we need to do whatever we can to fix it.  Bush needs to show some humility and admit mistakes and ask for help from the international community.  Our "coalition" was and is a joke. For us to think that we can unilaterally defeat terrorism, is both folly and arrogance. Especially, when we are trying to fight violence with more violence and when our focus is on nation building in Iraq, instead of isolating the terror cells throughout the world and bringing them to justice, partnering with the moderate Muslim nations and the rest of the world to come up with an international movement for peace and tolerance, and drying up the wells of discontent and anti-Americanism that is the breeding ground for terrorists. These wells are poverty, the obvious disparity in wealth between the U.S. and most of the world, U.S. foreign policy (i.e. we got the biggest guns don't mess with us or we will use them as well as our support of brutal regimes in South America as well as Saddam's regime in Iraq in the 80's), and the U.S. apparent disregard for other oppressed people (Palestinians, most of Africa) that are not in control of large amounts of oil (to name a few)

Jesus never said his way would be easy.  That is a modern day misinterpretation of Matthew 11:30.

The Greek chrestos (khrase-tos') interpreted above as easy, can also be interpreted as good, better, kind.

More importantly, Jesus is referring to his yoke.  We still need to carry it. 

What is easier, creatively starting a nonviolent, international movement for peace based on the highest Christian ideals of loving your neighbor and enemies and praying for those who persecute you or sending our brave young men and women with our technologically advanced weaponry all over the world to kill "the enemy" and many innocent people on accident meanwhile producing more "enemies" in the process because a lot of the "enemy" have family and friends who will want revenge. It is a never ending cycle of violence.  The story of Israel and the Palestinians are a modern day example of this cycle. 

This is what I mean by peace making.  It is not pacifism.  It is active. It is prayerful.  It is international.  What if Christians in the U.S. really started to reach out to the world wide church to hear what they had to say about U.S. foreign policy?  Getting the opinions of trusted brothers and sisters in Christ.  Listening to their grievances against our nation.  What they believe are the possible root causes of terrorism, injustice, and poverty.  Asking them how we (the wealthiest nation in perhaps the history of mankind) could do to change the course of human events world wide.

On a personal note, what caused me to originally write this blog was a Christian Talk Radio show discussing the band Jars of Clay. The Jars of Clay wrote a song called "Hero 43".  It is a war protest song.  I don't know the details of the song, but I assume it is questioning the reasons behind the decision to go to war in Iraq and the way President Bush has been using the language of faith to justify it. The talk show host was asking listeners if American Evangelical land can tolerate a different point of view on the Iraq war.  The basic assumption was the AECs support the war and the talk show host was not sure about AECs willingness to discuss different points of view on the issue.  Especially, from a Christian rock band.  Most of the callers that called in said that it undermined the troops, that when they go to watch a rock band that they don't want politics shoved down their throat (most people say this because the person on stage has an opposite point of view than them, if they agreed with them they would not mind them bringing it up on stage).  Needless to say, I was disconcerted that here in Amercan Evangelical land we would even have to ask the question whether we could tolerate different views as well as by the response of listeners. 

Fortunately, the responses to my blog have renewed my faith that most of us are willing to discuss the issue openly and honestly with humility and a willingness to listen to others points of view.  However, I will be praying for The WYATT.  I will pray that your heart will be softened by the Jesus in who's presence no one feels or felt condemned. Convicted yes and told to go and sin no more, but not condemned. Not the woman caught in adultery or the ones holding the stones, not the religious conservative, the soldier, the homosexual, the man who nailed the nails in his hands and feet, the ones who mocked Him while He hung on the cross, the lepers, the tax collectors, and the list goes on and includes you and me.  

Grace and peace,

Jeff 

Are we praying for Osama Bin Laden? Jesus said

In this country, when the death penalty has been carried out they often have said to the prisoners "May God have mercy on your soul." Should not soldiers who are Christians, when they are called to kill in war, be praying the same thing for the enemy? 

I ask these questions not because I'm looking for more debate (although I will consider any response that people wish to make to them), but rather because I'm hoping to illustrate in a practical way how the "Two Kingdoms" approach I referred to earlier works.

Joel, you said: "Jesus was NOT on assignment to start a political uprising or revolution. He came to fulfill the first phase of His Messianic role. His return will be VIOLENT for the forces of hell..."

You are right, Romans 12:17-21 says:

"Repay no one evil for evil.  Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.  If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.  Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.  Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

As for your respect, I hold myself to a higher standard than your opinion, for the Bible tells me that it is foolish for me to compare myself with other people:

"Of course we would not dare classify ourselves or compare ourselves with those who rate themselves so highly. How foolish they are! They make up their own standards to measure themselves by, and they judge themselves by their own standards!"  (2 Corinthians 10:12)

I'm concerned about Jesus' opinion, and I depend upon His mercy and grace.

If I'm going to err, I would much rather err on the side of mercy, for my human tendencies already lead towards being vindictive, violent and judgmental.  These are tendencies that the Holy Spirit is working in my life to overcome - that I might be more Christ-like.

"What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

"But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires."   (Galatians 5:19-24) GNB

"Go and learn what the Scriptures mean when they say, 'Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others.' I didn't come to invite good people to be my followers. I came to invite sinners."   (Matthew 9:13) 

Joel, from what you have written it seems clear that you have a wonderful desire to see justice and an end to evil.  I believe we agree on this - just that our ways of seeing it realized are different. 

Whatever the case, we can rejoice together that Jesus will ultimately bring it to pass!

Peace and blessings to you, my brother.

Karl

Our troops are laying down their lives to save the lives of others.  I don't think that is an act of war, but rather an act of peace.  Christ laid down his life to save ours and why shouldn't we do that for our fellow man?  Would you have the courage to do that?  I don't know if I would.  Let's try to keep things in perspective and not abandon your values just because they are unpopular with the world.

Dan,

That's good. Thanks.

and many troops are doing that in a way that we not only are not doing but also in a way that we often do not fully appreciate. That said, let's not somehow imply that the troops are not engaging in war. They are---that's their job in places like Iraq---and many of them are commissioned (under American authorization) to kill people.

While there is much that I appreciate about Karl K's post, I am not a pacifist (again, I wish to leave aside the specifics about the Iraq war) and I believe in lawful government. I believe that Christians can serve as soldiers, police officers, judges, kings/presidents, etc., and under God's authority put people in jail (if people break "lawful" laws), collect taxes and (in cases of "just wars") kill the enemy; these are not "dirty jobs" that are unfit for Christians. During John the Baptist's ministry, the following occured:

and Jesus healed the Gentile centurion's son freely with no demand that the centurion leave his calling (Luke 7:1-10). As Christians, we are not to avenge wrongdoing privately upon people, but instead we are to leave punishment up to the government (Romans 12:14-13:7)---government which can include Christians.

I think there is merit to pacifism.  I come from a long line of pacifists who came to this country because of their oppression.  I believe there is a difference between fighting and defending.  If we come to the defense of those who are oppressed, then I believe that is what Jesus would have us do.  If we could stand by and watch a person or a group of people be abused, raped, beaten or killed without intervening with word, action, or use of force if necessary and come out of that situation with a clear conscience, then I would have to question whether that person really loves their fellow man as Jesus has called us to do.

Wow! Quite a spirited Blog you guys have going here...

I enter this conversation to point out a few things that I thought of as I was reading through this.  So you know where I am coming from I am initimately familiar with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, since I have been deployed to the middle east five times since the year 2000.  Also when I deploy I spend the vast majority of my time speaking with, eating with, and getting to know the people of those countries in their homes listening to thier stories.  So I know first hand what this war has and has not done for the people and I also get to hear how the people actually feel about our presence.

First, while some of the scripture that has been quoted above might be somewhat applicable (abstractly at best) to modern warfare and the Iraq war, honestly most of it really does not fit the rightness or wrongness of this war, for this situation is far more complex and of a global scale than anything experienced in history and certainly anything addressed in this blog.  Furthermore, the Bible really wasn't intended to contain endless knowledge of political and military knowledge.  Thank God for that otherwise it might read alot like the Koran, but much much longer...lol.  The bible is our guide for how we can learn to glorify the Lord and it teaches us what we need to know to learn to right from wrong and it gives us what we need to know to obtain everlasting life with the Lord in Heaven or everlasting life in Hell with satan.  I think it is important to remember the Bible isn't the end all be all of historical information and it certainly doesn't address every issue we will ever need to resolve directly.  What it does do is give us all the information we need to make the right decsions in whatever we face. So if the question is "Is this war justified?"

To answer this we need to first answer the question "Why did we go to war with Iraq?"  The answer to this question is very long, but absolutely worth the time it takes to read if you want to know what it is all actually all about, here is a link to a speech given before congress, and I can tell you from my expericence in government and in the middle east this speech actually hits the nail on the head.  http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm  

Now it is also important to look at the actual impact that is being made and the cost at which this new deomcracy has paid in order to attain it's freedom.  First, those who are against the war should remember that the vast majority of Iraq under Saddam's rule was in absolute fear of their lives daily...  Only the Sunni Minority lived in relative safety and security.  Remember this isn't a statement coming from someone who has never been to Iraq and Afghanistan.  This is fact, the Kurds and the Shia were absolutely terrorized daily.  The casualties they experienced at Saddam's hands is still not even close to the amazingly low death toll and casualty toll that we, Britan, and Iraq have experienced since the war began.  In relation to the numbers of people killed in Iraq consider this: (I wrote this email in Nov 2006, so some of the numbers have increased slightly):

As a matter of correction to somones post above, it should be noted that there actually are a few groups of Christians living in Iraq.  The Caldean Chirstians to name one group they number more than 75,000. 

Another point of correction from someones post above, we all live in sin, the only difference from a Christian and a non Christian is the act of repentance from the Christian after we sin... 

For what it is worth, I will also add this, In the hundreds of homes that I have sat and the thousands of people I have spoken to, I have never encountered anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan who did not think they were absoulutely better off now than they were before the US Soldiers arrived.  Most all of them still fear that we will leave to soon and a dictator as bad or worse than the aTaliban or Saddam will return and make there lives even worse than it was before.

Lastly, I am not a totla supporter of this war and I do certainly think many many things have been mismanaged, especially the public affairs, media, and propaganda war aspects.  What we as a nation tend to gravitate towards is the negative, the death, destruction and all of the bad parts of war.  What I would challenge those who are jaded one way or the other is to look at the facts... How many schools, roads, jobs, clinic, hospitals, electricity, etc has been given to these people and do they want to go back to the stone age?  No the answer is clearly no, believe it or not these people love our culture and aspire as a people to be more like us.  Yes I understand that many will point out the differences in religion, but I am talking about culture.

 So now we should ask ourselves, this question "Will our action as a government provide, us as Christians the opportunity to spread the word to those who otherwise may have been killed by a dictator or brainwashed by a religion forced on them?"  Yes, our going into Iraq and Afghanistan has created a ton of opportunities for Muslims to come to Chirst.  I have seen many personal examples of this.  Also, the internet creates Awsome opportunities to reach beyond borders, as well as missions and other traditional aspects.

So my opinion is that YES BLESSED ARE THE WAR SUPPORTERS and YES BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO EXPRESS DISSENT, because the bottomline is that our BLESSINGS from the Lord don't come from our support or dissent on issues of war, they come from the grace extended to us for our choosing to repent of our sins and expressing our faith in Jesus Christ.