I am proud to be giving my small group leader a star :)  

Amen Jeff.  Look forward to learning and hearing more in our topical discussions...

Beautifully said - and oh so true.

I'd like to add this:

Not Another Dime

Your blog inspired me to post a new blog of my own on the subject of Bible Pacifism. Be sure to give it a look!

I'm going to take the middle on this one also, like I have on several others. As a father of a son injured in Iraq, i will tell you that I am a supporter of the war, but it doesn't mean this isn't a hard issue, with good people on both sides. I love the movie "the Mission", it let's each side have it's place. What I love 4even more is tha we live here, where we can have these opinions. In fact, it kind of brings to mind an old song by Larry Norman, probably off thread, but I'll post in anyway!

Larry Norman - The Great American Novel

i was born and raised an orphan
in a land that once was free
in a land that poured its love out on the moon
and i grew up in the shadows
of your silos filled with grain
but you never helped to fill my empty spoon

and when i was ten you murdered law
with courtroom politics
and you learned to make a lie sound just like truth
but i know you better now
and i don't fall for all your tricks
and you've lost the one advantage of my youth

you kill a black man at midnight
just for talking to your daughter
then you make his wife your mistress
and you leave her without water
and the sheet you wear upon your face
is the sheet your children sleep on
at every meal you say a prayer
you don't believe but still you keep on

and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the russians to the moon
and i say you starved your children to do it

you are far across the ocean
but the war is not your own
and while you're winning theirs
you're gonna lose the one at home
do you really think the only way
to bring about the peace
is to sacrifice your children
and kill all your enemies

the politicians all make speeches
while the news men all take note
and they exagerate the issues
as they shove them down our throats
is it really up to them
whether this country sinks or floats
well i wonder who would lead us
if none of us would vote

well my phone is tapped and my lips are chapped
from whispering through the fence
you know every move i make
or is that just coincidence
well you try to make my way of life
a little less like jail
if i promise to make tapes and slides
and send them through the mail

and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the russians to the moon
and i say you starved your children to do it
you say all men are equal all men are brothers
then why are the rich more equal than others
don't ask me for the answer i've only got one
that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son

Like everything else in this world there has to be balance. You can't preach Bible pacifism and ignore the 1,000s of battles in the Bible. You cannot preach Jesus as a peace lovin' hippie and ignore the fact that when He comes to Earth again, He's coming to "pick a fight."

We had a missionary come through that had been to Bahgdad (spelling?) shortly after the conflict began. They were able to establish two Baptist churches there. The comment that remains with me is that he said, "Had the US not gone in, we would have never been able to evengelize in this country." Priovious attempts had lead to certain death. Christians were not allowed.

Our church had several men who went and returned. I know people who have gone and not come back.

How would Jesus have felt in the year 1776? Would He have told Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and Revierre to just sit back, make peace not war? Don't forget that this great country that allows you the freedom to hold such views was in fact born out of a war for Her own independence.

Not all war is bad and not all peace is good. If you stand by and keep your peace when given an opportunity to tell someone their going to Hell if they don't know Jesus; you have blood on your hands.

We have been called into a ministry of reconciliation, no doubt.

I look forward to the follow up, this will be passionate I am sure.

Bro Chris  

Please allow to share something passes on to me by son, who happens to be not only a very strong Christian, but also a Army Ranger and currently deployed.

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision."

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth."

Whether you choose to remain a sheep is up to you.  But wolves by the hundreds prowl Iraq and other places.  I have been a sheepdog most of my life, albeit an old sheepdog now.  And I am so thankful that young sheepdogs like my son and other are willing to step up and stand the gap between the wolves, and the rest of us.

Tom 

Jeff-

You said "We need to look to Jesus example of redemptive nonviolence and apply it to our current situation.We need to reframe the debate from a war on terror to an advancing of God's kingdom on earth."

First, Dennis & Tom - Your young sons are HEROS for their sacrifices for the cause for freedom! As for Jeff's post, I must dissent with your "spin" on the peacemaker issue... Jesus wasn't actually much of a peacemaker when He tore up the temple and threw out (physically Man-handled) the money changers! Your attempt to make Jesus into a pascifist is typical of the "leftists" who also paint Jesus as being tolerant of "diversity" and that He would accept homosexuals for who they were without condemning their behavior... What do you propose that we do, Jeff? Invite Osama and his jihadists here to the White House lawn, sit down, sip tea, hold hands and sing "Cum by yah" or "Let There Be Peace On Earth"? Unwarranted war for imperialistic ambition is WRONG. War to defend your God-given rights and territory is necessary to keep the ravenous wolves, as Tom referred to, in check. Do you honestly think that Ghandi's way of seeking political change would've convinced Hitler to have a change of heart, pull out of occupied Europe and restore the gvts, and to stop his extermination of the Jewish race? With your figuring, we'd be speaking Japanese or German now...

Here's my answer to your pascifistic positions...

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
 
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which
 
thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
 
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
 
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
 
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and
 
kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
 
~John Stuart Mill - from On Liberty circa 1859

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Just a question with the first paragraph of this blog: Do we really believe that most American Evangelical Christians (AECs) are actually "against people speaking out against the war" in Iraq?  I have a hard time believing this is true.  All believers I know are basically in favor of freedom of speech and expression, even dissention.  ~mike

ps... Please don't automatically stamp me as a war supporter, it just seems I've been grouped with others, and I'm questioning one of the assertions about that group!

If you have found nothing worth fighting to keep, then you have found nothing worth keeping.

I assure you, if someone broke into my home and began to hurt my family, I would do everything in my power to make them stop, even if it meant I had to commit extreme violence against them.

You can take that to bank. 

Other than the many scripture references at my blog entry on Bible Pacifism (which I referred to earlier in this blog), I have not seen any scriptural support for opposing positions that would prove that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior approves of wars or any form of violent self-defense.

Ultimately, I am a sheep, and Jesus is My shepherd and protector - not myself, not the police, and not the military!  The safest course for me is to live according to His will!     

We are not to have such a hold on this world that we would stoop to killing another to preserve our "rights", possessions, or fleeting existence on this planet.

I'll bite...there are many...however, since you have clearly made up your mind that you are right, nobody is bothering to discuss it.  Here is one...

Or:

It would appear to me that we are to submit ourselves to the authority God has placed over us in the form of Government. Should that Government decide to go to war...

Brother Chris

This is a great discussion so far, and I think that the issue of the war gives us as an opportunity as Christians to examine our theology ever more deeply and motivate us to serve our neighbors better.

When I read what people have said so far, there is much that I can affirm even if it comes from people who are disagreeing with one another. It's not because I want everyone to get along in a "let's forget our differences and issues and just love one another" kind of way. Rather, it is because there is a built in "tension" (or "paradox") of living the Christian life that the Bible affirms, and people here are affirming different aspects of that tension. Without trying to leave anyone in particular out (and without getting into a debate about the merits of the Iraq war), I agree with Jhop that we should not substitute an "American Civil Religion" for Christianity and with Karl K that we should mourn the lives of the many young soldiers and innocent Iraqis that have been lost, while at the same time I affirm what voice_in_dc says about governmental authority and the command to submit to it (it is noteworthy that Paul wrote those verses under Roman rule!) as well as The WYATT's broader point about there being such a thing as a just war. This tension comes about because we are both citizens of America (I think we're all Americans, anyway!) and citizens of the Kingdom of Christ. We are "in the world" but not "of the world." Jesus said

and

An article that I have found very helpful seems good to link to here. It is not only applicable to the issue of war---rather, it is more broadly talking about how Christianity and culture relate to one another and the implications for us both as individual Christians and as part of the Church. We should not seek to put culture above Christianity, put Christianity above culture or keep Christianity and culture separate. Rather, God rules over both the "spiritual" and "temporal" realms, but His rule in one realm differs from His rule in the other. I invite you all to read it, because I think that it will provide a lot of food for thought about a lot of important issues (including all that has been brought up here so far).

"Christianity & Culture: God's Double Sovereignty" by Dr. Gene Edward Veith

Hey Jeff,

I do want to make sure you understand that even though I may be more pro this war than many, I also want ot make sure that you understand how much I believe that people like you should question the war. I also need people like you to put teeth in you discontent by doing the same things that meny of the prop war people are doing, volunteering. In the VA and at Bethesda, and at the Fisher houses, and at all those other venues, you should be supportign all those who are doing the "dirty work". I will tell you that one of the differences in the societal impact of this war is people supportign the troops and thier support people. I can respect John Mellencamp, even though he may have turnedd out a record questioning the war, he also gets out there and visits and helps raise money. We want things to be black and white, this is a weakness of the western mindset of theology, we want there to be a right and wrong, and absolute answer to every aspect of faith and theology. But, what if some things don't have clear cut absolute answers? Are there areas of faith that cannot be written in stone, or even in clay? How do we approach each other when there are areas of faith where both answers have a level of validity? As the father of a wounded warrior I have a great level of pride in our military, and the true sacrifices that these young men and women make, would it be so that those in the Curch would be so dilligent to train, to sacrifice, or to have the ability to rely on each other for their very life. Would it be so that we would believe so firmly that we would literaly and figurativly throw ourselves on a grenade for each other, or in the case of many of our young men and women, for strangers in another country. This would again turn the world over, just like the early Church turned it over. May God have mercy that we could become true warriors for Him!

Dennis

Karl K-

You said "This war in Iraq is especially disturbing to me and many others because the nation of Iraq did not attack the United States. Whatever our leaders' noble intentions, we were the aggressors, and many thousands of innocent people have had to pay the price with the loss of their lives."

Again, using your rationale, we then should NOT have went to war with Germany in either WWI or WWII! Germany didn't attack us on Dec 7 1941... Japan did! Using your train of thought, Hitler would've defeated Britain as we sat idley by; the Third Reich would still be in power, ruling over ALL of Europe and Asia, as the USSR would've been defeated by sheer German military might and resources! We would've been forced to deal with Hitler on HIS terms, and the Jewish race as we know it would be NON-existant! Israel would've never been re-born as a nation after WWII, as the Jews left Europe in masses... since Hitler would've succeeded in killing hem all off! CAN YOU HONESTLY JUSTIFY YOUR PASCIFISTIC VIEWS IN THIS REGARD????? You say that you'd defend your family if your property were attacked by robbers or rapists... how then can you justify that position, since you'd be required to use "violence" to overcome a VIOLENT assault or attack on you & your family! PLEASE help us to understand you, Karl...

Oh, by the way... you didn't address my previous post either! You wreak of cowardness, Karl... I have NO respect for anyone who refuses to stand against evil, in ANY form it manifests itself! I have NO respect for people such as yourself who could NOT summon up enough Godly anger to repel a violent assault or attack on even your own family... I pity you...

Here's my answer to your pascifistic positions...(reposted from above)

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
 
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which
 
thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
 
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
 
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
 
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and
 
kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
 
~John Stuart Mill - from On Liberty circa 1859

Joel

Violence is not required to overcome a violent attack!

Restraining someone without attempting to cause them physical harm is non-violent.  As I stated previously, I had to stand in the face of danger many times in my job as a Night Supervisor/Chaplain at a homeless shelter - and tho' I had to restrain many a violent drunk or drug addict, I never caused them any physical harm.

Since cowardice is the opposite of courage, I thought I'd give this dictionary definition of courage:

cour·age (kûr'ĭj, kŭr'-)
n.
The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution.

[Middle English corage, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *corāticum, from Latin cor, heart.]

So, if a person uses their body to shield or restrain someone from commiting a violent act, is that cowardice?  If a person tries to prayerfully and wisely talk to or reason with an aggressor, is that cowardice?

You seem to imply that seeking a non-violent solution to conflict should be equated with cowardice.  I don't understand. 

Would you also imply that retreat in the face of violently overwhelming odds is cowardice?  Many a wise person has wisely retreated under such circumstances, only to survive and achieve a peaceful solution later on.

Dying a violent death for non-violently standing in the face evil is the history of the apostles and the many saints who were martyred - and the record of their deaths stands as one of the greatest examples of courage in the history of mankind. 

I believe they were following the example of someone named Jesus Christ.  Why not try quoting Him, instead of John Stuart Mill?

As for WWI and WWII, I don't claim to have the omniscience to be able to say what would have happened had the world attempted to deal with Japan and Germany in a non-violent manner.  We will never know.

Karl K-

How would using your body as some kind of human shield keep a murderer from not just killing you but also your family???

And, Jesus was NOT on assignment to start a political uprising or revolution. He came to fullfill the first phase of His Messianic role. His return will be VIOLENT for the forces of hell...

Your last sentence indicates your total lack of coherence of the REAL world in which we live. I have NO respect for you or your cowardly cohorts... Again, I pity you!

Joel

Dear ones,

I knew that my blog would probably generate discussion. But I am very surprised and disappointed at the tone of some of the comments.  I would hope that we could discuss important issues like this respectfully with one another.  I know Jesus was not afraid to use harsh language when he addressed the Pharisees of his day, but I would remind all of us that we are not Jesus (and if you are like me, you are probably more like a pharisee than you are like Jesus).

Like I said in my blog, "I am the first to admit this is me".  I am an American Evangelical Christian. Most people would label me a conservative republican.  I am a big fan of Rush Limbaugh (since 1992). I am not a pacifist. I cheered when we took the Taliban down.  I celebrated when Saddam was captured.  I am thankful that my Grandfather served in WWII.  He was in the Pacific and would have been part of the army charged with taking Japan by land, if Truman had not dropped the A Bombs.  I know that there are wolves, and I am thankful for the sheepdogs (sons of some of the commentors on this blog) as well as the Good Shepherd who protects me. My head is not in the sand.  I see clearer today than ever, but I also know that I am blind in comparison to what God sees.

However, in recent months through prayer, reading and much thought, my views on many of the things I took for granted are progressively changing. I think if we took an honest look at scripture and the life and teachings of Jesus as well as our highest American ideals of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, we would all question our allegiance to this unilateral pre-emptive war in Iraq. This doesn't mean that we do not support our troops or do not support our President.  Despite popular belief, you can support the President and disagree with him.  

First of all, modern warfare has too much collateral damage, and that should be reason enough for us to make sure that it is the last thing we turn to.  Especially, when there were international law and alternatives in place prior to the war.  Too many innocent Iraqis are losing their lives on a daily basis. Not only that the apparent nature of the "enemies" tactics makes collateral damage unavoidable.  They are willing to set up shop in Mosques and apartments. How do our soldiers know who to go after? 

This does not mean that we should "cut and run".  We have created the mess, and we need to do whatever we can to fix it.  Bush needs to show some humility and admit mistakes and ask for help from the international community.  Our "coalition" was and is a joke. For us to think that we can unilaterally defeat terrorism, is both folly and arrogance. Especially, when we are trying to fight violence with more violence and when our focus is on nation building in Iraq, instead of isolating the terror cells throughout the world and bringing them to justice, partnering with the moderate Muslim nations and the rest of the world to come up with an international movement for peace and tolerance, and drying up the wells of discontent and anti-Americanism that is the breeding ground for terrorists. These wells are poverty, the obvious disparity in wealth between the U.S. and most of the world, U.S. foreign policy (i.e. we got the biggest guns don't mess with us or we will use them as well as our support of brutal regimes in South America as well as Saddam's regime in Iraq in the 80's), and the U.S. apparent disregard for other oppressed people (Palestinians, most of Africa) that are not in control of large amounts of oil (to name a few)

Jesus never said his way would be easy.  That is a modern day misinterpretation of Matthew 11:30.

The Greek chrestos (khrase-tos') interpreted above as easy, can also be interpreted as good, better, kind.

More importantly, Jesus is referring to his yoke.  We still need to carry it. 

What is easier, creatively starting a nonviolent, international movement for peace based on the highest Christian ideals of loving your neighbor and enemies and praying for those who persecute you or sending our brave young men and women with our technologically advanced weaponry all over the world to kill "the enemy" and many innocent people on accident meanwhile producing more "enemies" in the process because a lot of the "enemy" have family and friends who will want revenge. It is a never ending cycle of violence.  The story of Israel and the Palestinians are a modern day example of this cycle. 

This is what I mean by peace making.  It is not pacifism.  It is active. It is prayerful.  It is international.  What if Christians in the U.S. really started to reach out to the world wide church to hear what they had to say about U.S. foreign policy?  Getting the opinions of trusted brothers and sisters in Christ.  Listening to their grievances against our nation.  What they believe are the possible root causes of terrorism, injustice, and poverty.  Asking them how we (the wealthiest nation in perhaps the history of mankind) could do to change the course of human events world wide.

On a personal note, what caused me to originally write this blog was a Christian Talk Radio show discussing the band Jars of Clay. The Jars of Clay wrote a song called "Hero 43".  It is a war protest song.  I don't know the details of the song, but I assume it is questioning the reasons behind the decision to go to war in Iraq and the way President Bush has been using the language of faith to justify it. The talk show host was asking listeners if American Evangelical land can tolerate a different point of view on the Iraq war.  The basic assumption was the AECs support the war and the talk show host was not sure about AECs willingness to discuss different points of view on the issue.  Especially, from a Christian rock band.  Most of the callers that called in said that it undermined the troops, that when they go to watch a rock band that they don't want politics shoved down their throat (most people say this because the person on stage has an opposite point of view than them, if they agreed with them they would not mind them bringing it up on stage).  Needless to say, I was disconcerted that here in Amercan Evangelical land we would even have to ask the question whether we could tolerate different views as well as by the response of listeners. 

Fortunately, the responses to my blog have renewed my faith that most of us are willing to discuss the issue openly and honestly with humility and a willingness to listen to others points of view.  However, I will be praying for The WYATT.  I will pray that your heart will be softened by the Jesus in who's presence no one feels or felt condemned. Convicted yes and told to go and sin no more, but not condemned. Not the woman caught in adultery or the ones holding the stones, not the religious conservative, the soldier, the homosexual, the man who nailed the nails in his hands and feet, the ones who mocked Him while He hung on the cross, the lepers, the tax collectors, and the list goes on and includes you and me.  

Grace and peace,

Jeff 

Jeff-

You say "First of all, modern warfare has too much collateral damage, and that should be reason enough for us to make sure that it is the last thing we turn to. "

That's simply NOT true. Although we have the capabilities of mass destruction on a horrific scale, our weaponary allows for more precision strikes with minimal collateral damage. With laser-guided munitions, we can destroy one structure without taking out the entire community.

As for the rest of your post, you stated your points well. although I disagree, I must say you make a good point.

Joel

By the way, Jeff...

War never solved anything... EXCEPT that it ended SLAVERY, defeated NAZISM, FASCISM, TOTALITARIANISM, COMMUNISM and resulted in the liberation of an entire continent (Europe) from the grips of one of the most cruel and brutal tyrants ever... Adolf Hitler... And, NOONE could offer ANY rebuttal to my prior posts on this blog! So before you "pray" for my heart to be overcome with compassion for those who - at this very moment - are devising plans to hit our innocent citizens yet again, even with WMDs should they acquire them... I'll continue to pray for our BRAVE heros who are continuing the fight for your and my freedom in the deserts of the Middle East. If I wasn't a disabled combat vet from the first Gulf War, I'd be over there right now with them, defending your rights to WORSHIP our Lord, and to hold to your pascifistic views as well!

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Here's my answer to your pascifistic positions...(reposted from above)

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
 
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which
 
thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
 
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
 
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
 
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and
 
kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
 
~John Stuart Mill - from On Liberty circa 1859

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Are we praying for Osama Bin Laden? Jesus said

In this country, when the death penalty has been carried out they often have said to the prisoners "May God have mercy on your soul." Should not soldiers who are Christians, when they are called to kill in war, be praying the same thing for the enemy? 

I ask these questions not because I'm looking for more debate (although I will consider any response that people wish to make to them), but rather because I'm hoping to illustrate in a practical way how the "Two Kingdoms" approach I referred to earlier works.

Jam137-

You need to read Tom's blog entry above! It is OUTSTANDING in how it sums up the NEED for those who are willing to sacrifice themselves to secure and safeguard the freedoms of other citizens! Thank you, Tom!

Joel

Joel, you said: "Jesus was NOT on assignment to start a political uprising or revolution. He came to fulfill the first phase of His Messianic role. His return will be VIOLENT for the forces of hell..."

You are right, Romans 12:17-21 says:

"Repay no one evil for evil.  Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.  If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.  Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.  Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

As for your respect, I hold myself to a higher standard than your opinion, for the Bible tells me that it is foolish for me to compare myself with other people:

"Of course we would not dare classify ourselves or compare ourselves with those who rate themselves so highly. How foolish they are! They make up their own standards to measure themselves by, and they judge themselves by their own standards!"  (2 Corinthians 10:12)

I'm concerned about Jesus' opinion, and I depend upon His mercy and grace.

If I'm going to err, I would much rather err on the side of mercy, for my human tendencies already lead towards being vindictive, violent and judgmental.  These are tendencies that the Holy Spirit is working in my life to overcome - that I might be more Christ-like.

"What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

"But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires."   (Galatians 5:19-24) GNB

"Go and learn what the Scriptures mean when they say, 'Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others.' I didn't come to invite good people to be my followers. I came to invite sinners."   (Matthew 9:13) 

Joel, from what you have written it seems clear that you have a wonderful desire to see justice and an end to evil.  I believe we agree on this - just that our ways of seeing it realized are different. 

Whatever the case, we can rejoice together that Jesus will ultimately bring it to pass!

Peace and blessings to you, my brother.

Karl

Karl K-

Semper Fidelis

Joel

Our troops are laying down their lives to save the lives of others.  I don't think that is an act of war, but rather an act of peace.  Christ laid down his life to save ours and why shouldn't we do that for our fellow man?  Would you have the courage to do that?  I don't know if I would.  Let's try to keep things in perspective and not abandon your values just because they are unpopular with the world.

Dan,

That's good. Thanks.

and many troops are doing that in a way that we not only are not doing but also in a way that we often do not fully appreciate. That said, let's not somehow imply that the troops are not engaging in war. They are---that's their job in places like Iraq---and many of them are commissioned (under American authorization) to kill people.

While there is much that I appreciate about Karl K's post, I am not a pacifist (again, I wish to leave aside the specifics about the Iraq war) and I believe in lawful government. I believe that Christians can serve as soldiers, police officers, judges, kings/presidents, etc., and under God's authority put people in jail (if people break "lawful" laws), collect taxes and (in cases of "just wars") kill the enemy; these are not "dirty jobs" that are unfit for Christians. During John the Baptist's ministry, the following occured:

and Jesus healed the Gentile centurion's son freely with no demand that the centurion leave his calling (Luke 7:1-10). As Christians, we are not to avenge wrongdoing privately upon people, but instead we are to leave punishment up to the government (Romans 12:14-13:7)---government which can include Christians.

I think there is merit to pacifism.  I come from a long line of pacifists who came to this country because of their oppression.  I believe there is a difference between fighting and defending.  If we come to the defense of those who are oppressed, then I believe that is what Jesus would have us do.  If we could stand by and watch a person or a group of people be abused, raped, beaten or killed without intervening with word, action, or use of force if necessary and come out of that situation with a clear conscience, then I would have to question whether that person really loves their fellow man as Jesus has called us to do.

Wow! Quite a spirited Blog you guys have going here...

I enter this conversation to point out a few things that I thought of as I was reading through this.  So you know where I am coming from I am initimately familiar with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, since I have been deployed to the middle east five times since the year 2000.  A