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| There are Two Jesus images |
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2Cor.11:3.....as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,..........
There is another Jesus. This other Jesus does not offer salvation freely, but rather to only those who serve him or accept him.
Now I am going to tell you something that will change your life and grant you access to more power than your earthly body(old wine skin) can handle. There are Two Jesus images. One motivates by FEAR. The Other True Jesus Motivates by Love equally to all.
The Word says:
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Notice here the Word says that Through FEAR all of our life time we are SUBJECT TO BONDAGE.
Now here's a Spiritual ray of light to free you from the "Other Jesus" that motivates from fear.
If you came to Jesus by any motivation of FEAR whatsoever, you my friend have never met the TRUE JESUS. If Perfect Love cast out fear, God would never send you any type of FEAR motivation to accept him.
Did you accept Jesus to avoid hell? Or did you accept Jesus to escape a fearful God that would hurt you if you dare not accept his terms? Well my friend, you have accepted an other Jesus who has manipulated you by FEAR. Through this manipulation of FEAR, you are held in bondage to a religion that will torment you if you dare question it's author. This is why Christians are afraid of God. They came to him out of FEAR.
Well it is time you become AWARE of the Good News and walk into Perfect LOVE that will never allow you to become separated from your FATHER. His Salvation is by "Birthright" He never allows his seed to suffer corruption. Even if they continue to re-translate the bible a hundred times, your Salvation is by birthright and not by works or lack of works.
This salvation is by the "FAITH OF GOD " not of yourselves. We all know that the other Jesus demands faith by yourself. But the TRUE JESUS does not accept you based on your faith but rather the Faith of the FATHER of all.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Keep the loins of your mind away from any seed planter that might subject you to any subliminal form or type of spirit of FEAR. Perfect Love does not move or manipulate whatsoever with any presence of FEAR. Unfortunately many churches have led their younger crowds by HELL and BRIMSTONE FIRE manipulation, that motivated them to accept this other Jesus or suffer the penalty of the voice of FEAR. These Christians will never have real power because this other Jesus has none to give.
Well it is time to become AWARE of GOD"S FAITH that
surrounds your entire being by birthright. In Christ we live and move and have our being.
May you dwell in peace my friends.......Kingdomwithin.
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Rob |
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April 14, 2008 at 9:32am |
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Well put, my brother!
Fear is a great motivator but it is not the way to know God. The bible talks about the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom but the fear of anything is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of fire is wise. I'm a nerd (computer geek) and I have to recognize the consequences of shutting down a network server. The fear of technology is the beginning of wisdom.
4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. I'm afraid I might leave one of God's great and precious promises on the table so I read and study His word looking for more of His goodness toward me.
Fear may change your behavior but only love will change your heart. This time through, I want to be motivated by the God of love!
Thank God for Jesus!
Rob |
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He who takes the Bible Literally is he who is either insane or soon to become insane.
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I was reading your profile, and am concerned for you, When Christ returns, He will not return in love, but rather with a sword and fire. He demands obedience to Him, for without it, and trying to enter any other way, beside through the straight and narrow path, will lead to damnation. Yes He loves us, but He wants man to come to Him freely, to except His love, but if man refuses to follow His ways, then He will cast that man out and tell him that He never knew him. As to not fearing Him, many times the Apostles wrote about fearing the Lord, for He is a jealous Lord and Master. Acts 9:31, Romans 11: 18-22, 2nd Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians: 5:21, Philippians 2:12, 1st Timothy 5:20, Hebrews 4:1, Hebrews 12:28, 1st Peter 1:17, 1st Peter 2:17, 1st Peter 3:15, Revelation 14:6-7, Revelations 19:5, |
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Grant |
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April 14, 2008 at 9:51pm |
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5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? I prefer to let the REAL Jesus speak for himself. Actually then, reading what Jesus said in totality on this topic, the REAL truth is that he used both fear and faith as motivators. The REAL Jesus is the one we read in the Bible. Let's be sure to read more of what he says before jumping to one-sided conclusions. Blessings! |
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Hi Gary;
Thank you for responding and thanks for the concern.
I guess we could discuss this for years but I think at the end we would both be right where we started. I really don't want to take a position that I am right and you are wrong. It's pretty hard to fellowship with that position.
But in trying to address your concerns I will say that I can equally weight Up the balances with scripture that weighs my position to tilt to what I believe. The Bible can do that you know.
I will add a few words that opened my personal eyes to a Loving God.
God expects us to Love our enemies. Those who trespass against us.
God is going to overcome Evil by treating the evil doer good. here's proof:
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
I am sure God takes his own advice. I could go on with more in this direction, but a little at a time. You are right about Jesus return with his s-WORD and also Divine Fire (purifier) and I guess if you are flesh and disobedient there will be a moment of reckoning for that image. There will be many of us who have thoughts that will not survive his divine Love and Word. I don't know about you but My Thoughts are just about all of what I am. If you take my thoughts away you carry off serious parts of who I am. Some thinkin just won't remain come that day where Jesus Word is final. Ole me. But to save the Body sometimes the doc. does what he does.
In short the Scriptures clearly state The final scenes where "every creature" is praising God. (Rev 5:13)
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Gary I am sorry but your way can not be stated as coming to Jesus Freely. That is liken to a man telling His wife He Loves her, but if you leave me Darline, I will hunt you down and torture you and destroy you.
Sorry pal, but the Love of God is not like that at all. Nor is his fire the kind like your human mind understands. Love hurts worse when it is resisted.
I do not Fear God. I know him now. He is responsible for Me and he plans to overcome all my evil with Good. Jesus was the down payment confirming the Heart of the creator.
Peace to you Gary.......My friend. |
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Grant;
May the Lord bless you. The real Messiah was simply never expected to take such a gentle approach when confronted with Sin. I will say this as clearly as I know How. If Jesus Christ was the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God, He completely failed to Image the God of Judgment that most Christians speak of. He actually Imaged a very Merciful God when dealing with Sinful acts.
He could have easily gave us ONE EXAMPLE to reveal this "FEARFUL GOD" that everyone preaches about.
Now is there correction....you bet. Is there Fire You bet. For our God is a consuming Fire. If his Son's and Daughters are Not consuming Fire images then something will indeed need to be corrected. We are Created in the Image of a all consuming Fire. So whatever burns is not "imaging the Spirit Of God" Some clothes and some works and some Ideals have to be tested. What comes out of that fire can remain. That's scripture and Intent of Scripture. You will notice that the Soul (emotions) and the (Body) can be threatened by Fire. But the SPIRIT has Nothing To fear with God. I might lose some attachments of my emotions and even my good lookin flesh body. But My Righteous Spirit has no Lost as it is Holy and Pure....produced out of God Himself.
Serpents and Vipers are direct references to the children of Satan. Seeds from His Kingdom. This has Nothing To do with the Humanity, but rather a generation unseen with the eye of man. The hidden demons behind the manipulation of the affairs of mankind.
Peace to you my Brother In Christ...... |
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Sin or immature actions of children will never out do God's Grace. NEVER. The Devil can try with every accusation he can Find and legally dictate, but God's Grace will Never weaken or expire when confronted with the Holy Law from the Mouth of Satan. He can quote it like no other. But Grace will abound in the Final word.
But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
(Rom. 5:18) |
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Rob |
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April 15, 2008 at 6:55am |
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The way I see it, there's a ditch on either side of the road.
There's nothing wrong with taking the bible literally. It's a tool like everything else. Scripture is good.
Fear is a great motivator but, as you pointed out, Kingdom, fear is not the way to know God. In your original post, you correctly noted that perfect love casteth out fear. Fear and love are incompatible just like good and evil are incompatible. But good and evil need each other.
Without darkness what is light? Without evil what is good? Without opposing poles nothing exists. There is no such thing as a monopole.
Gary, God wants obedience but obedience out of fear is nothing but "dead works". If God wanted rote obedience, there would have been no need in sending Jesus - the Law would have sufficed. Obedience is the by-product of something. Whatever is motivating that obedience is what God seems to be looking at. Obedience for obedience' sake is difficult to maintain and is pretty shallow. When motivated by love, obedience flows out of our hearts naturally and easily. His commandments are NOT grievous.
God is love. Perfect love casteth out fear. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
All truth is a paradox. Unless you understand the paradox, you cannot understand the truth. Looking at one side of the opposing poles leads to error.
Let's use this forum to explore the paradox. A magnet has both north and south poles. We can understand God by observing His creation. What do we see in nature that can help us understand the nature of God?
Rob |
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Grant |
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April 15, 2008 at 7:31am |
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 KW, what I was hoping you would come back with is the two definitions of the word fear. One is the shaking in your boots kind of cowardly fear, the kind that Revelation 21:8 says will be shut out of the kingdom of heaven. The other is a deep fear or reverence and respect for God. Never mind! I am now arguing your side of the discussion for you. LOL. That's okay, because that's my point.
Theologians often point out that there are two sides to Jesus. He came as the gentle shephed the first time, but will come as a conquering King of Kings next time. One side of Jesus is the gentle Lamb of God, the other is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Neither side of Jesus is a counterfeit. He is both Savior AND Lord, as any good Bible scholar will point out.
The counterfeits of Jesus that you are talking about are not those that show Jesus as Lord as opposed to Savior, but those that are made in an image not given in Scripture. Such images are in the minds and vain imaginations of men, who want to make Jesus into an image of their own making, instead of allowing Jesus to teach them how he really is.
Blessings, Grant. |
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Rob; that was some good advice. In fact all you fellows have very good and WISE points of views to your observations. I try my best to really listen to everyone who is concerned and feels inspired to add their opinions.
So my friends if I tell a lie, you know just one here and there, could any of you see me as an Honest Person? I think Not. To be an Honest Person, well you just are going to have to continue to be honest. This is the way I am. If you lie to me, I just can't TRUST you as an Honest person.
Now I know this is not the way most people observe God. They structure God according to the opinion of the past or even present messengers of God. I do not. That's right I do NOT structure God according to what Moses says about God. Nor any of the Prophets. Nor any of the New Testament disciples. No offense Please but these guys were former murders, thieves, religious brain washed servants of the organized FEAR MACHINE of their days. I could add quite a few lines here but in fairness these men are all Truly Forgiven. They have their documented position
of their personal view of God. But.......
God did not Say Listen to Moses. He did not say Listen to Elijah, Nor any prophet nor even any follower of Jesus. He said this is my Beloved Son. HEAR YE HIM.(Matt.17:5) I can NOT possibly FEAR God if Jesus does Not Image this God as a FEARFUL IMAGE for my construction of God's image with my soul and Spirit to build upon. Jesus did not IMAGE God as Fearful.
I will continue this ..................peace |
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Continuing............. If I Lie there is no one who would really believe me as Honest again. Well at least any time soon.
Does God change from dark to light as it is convenient ? I mean can he be a liar and honest as He moves about his purpose? Of Course not. If so then this God seriously needs to run for a political office......Darn erase that one, then again maybe our Image of God is truly running for the political office of Power.
Is God Hate and then in the blink of an Eye he appears as LOVE ?
Does He cast out FEAR and encourages me to be fearless, then Blinks again and Pooof goes the Love God and here appears a God who says Fear me or else.
Either God IS Love according to 1John or he is not really fully Love but kind of trying to get there.
(like us) Does He do just fine until there is a reason not to be Love anymore?
I can Not Trust Love like that. Either God is Love and His mercies endure forever, or He isn't.
I know we have documented opinions. Yeah Inspired even. But These Opinions have NO EXAMPLES from the Image of God's Son. (but plenty from his so called messengers.)
Okay I think I made my point. 1Cor.13 ...everyone knows the Love chapter is God. The God that Moses and the good ole boys of the Bible have simply do not harmonize with Jesus and the Image he portrayed in scripture. I will follow Jesus not Moses or any other for that matter. If God is Love then Love will have the final WORD and IMAGE when the roll is called up yonder. If I hear and look to Jesus and Not the others I have no problem with this opinion. My eyes see not a fearful God but rather His Image cast away my fears. My fears come from the image of men yes, I get it, but my fear is cast away from the Image of God's expressed personality/face.
Peace.............. |
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here is a scripture that comes to my heart: 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first beginneth at us, what will be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore, let them that suffer according to the will of God, commit the keeping of their souls to him in well-doing, as to a faithful Creator. |
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Rob |
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April 15, 2008 at 10:45am |
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The law of sowing and reaping has never been revoked, thank God. That law is the law of cause and effect. If I treat you harshly I can expect you to treat me harshly. What goes around comes around. If I hit a nail with a hammer, I drive it into the wood.
But look at the context of Galatians 6. In Galatians 5, Paul made this statement:
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Paul is most definitely talking to Christians. He's not talking to people who want to engage in gross sin; he's talking to people who want to live godly lives in Christ. The theme of the book of Galatians is how best to accomplish that objective.
Some in the church proposed that strict adherence to the Law was the way. Circumcision was being touted as a prerequisite to salvation. Paul's theology, however, suggests that being under law is not the optimal solution. When it comes in contact with the Law, the flesh goes nuts and has to break it. Living a life under law is equivalent to being in the flesh.
The term "the flesh" refers to an attitude of the mind. Being in the flesh is being "naturally minded" or as Paul called it "carnally minded". 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Carnally minded, in this context, does not mean "wishing to engage in sin". The Roman Christians - just like the Galatians - loved God and wanted to serve Him the best way. There are two different approaches to the Christian walk, in the natural and in the Spirit. Paul is encouraging them to abandon the natural and live by the Spirit.
Being in the Spirit does not require lots of effort to maintain the course on the strait and narrow road. Being in the flesh does. Given the choice, most people would choose life by the Spirit but most Christians never get that choice.
So Paul's message to the Galatians concludes that if you insist on walking in the flesh, staying under law, the result will be the "works of the flesh". It's inevitable. It doesn't matter how much you say you love God, if you try to worship Him in the flesh, the result will always be disastrous. But if we invest our efforts in walking in the Spirit, the result will always be life and peace.
The choice should be given to every Christian but it rarely is. We all start out in the Spirit but we are quickly put back under law and works righteousness. It distorts our whole interpretation of the scriptures and it always ends up destroying our confidence in God.
Most Christians have never heard the good news of the gospel.
Rob |
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Rob that is quality stuff above. I mean you have some meat in there that can build some mussle.
Thanks well said.
peace.........
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Rob |
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April 15, 2008 at 11:28am |
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Kingdom,
I think Grant hit on an important point. How many Greek words are translated "fear" in the New Testament? That's a worthwhile study.
Kingdom, you are 100% correct. Nobody in his right mind would want to enter a relationship with such an evil thing as that. Part of our dilemma is cultural, part of it is language, but I think most of this can be reconciled in view of the sacrifice of Jesus.
God is just like us. He's a great guy but just don't pi$$ him off. I'm the same way. But what Jesus did by offering Himself on the cross was to take my judgement for me. It's called the Gospel of Peace because now we all can have peace with God. Jesus is the lightning rod for the wrath of God.
God is an all-loving God but He's also a just God. The justice of God has been satisfied by Jesus for all those who believe it has been satisfied by Jesus. If you don't believe it then you're right. If you do believe it, you're right too.
Jesus, when He was talking about the judgment of God said, "And if I be lifted up, I'll draw all to myself." 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. Notice that the word "[men]" is bracketed. That means this word does not appear in the original Greek. Jesus wasn't talking about drawing men to Himself, He was talking about drawing the judgment of God to Himself.
This Jesus is our redeemer because He paid the price for our salvation from the wrath of God. Isaiah said it best when he wrote: 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. "The Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all".
Paul said it this way: 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. God is still that angry, fire breathing God from the Old Testament. That doesn't make Him evil that makes Him like us - human. What makes Him God, however, is the great love that He had for the world that He would send His own Son to take our punishment for us. God's the One who worked all that out. He's the One who decided to focus all His wrath (justice) on a single human being - the Son of God.
We CANNOT understand these things apart from the scriptures. We do not know ANYTHING about Jesus except from what His disciples wrote about in the bible. We cannot have a full understanding of what went on without the bible. It is key to our understanding of who we are and who God is. Now, let's not have any more of that "Reading the bible is for losers" talk, okay?
Rob |
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Gary;
Hey friend. Yeah Peter said what he said. Not all the apostles harmonized like the average Christian understands. But I didn't say these men were wrong did I. Just a different approach from their personal Understanding. yes Inspired from God.
Does listening To Jesus get us into Trouble ? If it wasn't for Jesus I don't think we would have a problem with Fearing God. There would be little to be divided over. The mainline was thrown a curve by this Jesus expressing God in the kind loving extra long suffering way.
Am I endanger of Hell Fire because I took him at his Word ? Am I in any Trouble at all because I listened to Jesus as final Word instead of Peter or James or Paul or Moses or any of the Prophets?
Jesus the real Jesus said: "TAKE "NO THOUGHT" FOR YOUR LIFE" (do not worry about yourselves)
Jesus the real Jesus said: It was the gentiles that have tendencies toward being concerned about your Future provisions.
Please tell me how any one of you can Fear God and your future Environment and make proper choices if you Listen and take the advice of Jesus To not be troubled about your Life or clothing or provisions ect........ Jesus told me God takes care of these things for me. Now I am told that I do need to be concerned about "MY FUTURE" Hey what gives. Please tell me, should I listen to Jesus or should I listen To Paul or Peter or maybe even a Poster friend or Two.
What and to Whom are we Listening To????????????????????????? Why is there always Two Voices with exact opposites ??????? Is The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil somehow manipulating my perceptions where a duality exist at the point where I can not reason to understanding? Contrast is a necessary Evil yes. But In who's voice do we place final word????
(Matt.6:25-34)
Is Love in which God is....Can it be trusted to BE Love? Does LOVE really Mean I need not Think of my own Future because God has my Back and Present and Forward??? Is Love going to fail to Live up to what I consider Love to Be. Which is True to It's Value.
Peace my friends..........
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This Sounds Like..........Well....There is not a Hell????????
So answer please.....opinion?
Hell is Death & Dying .....Sickness, Diseases, Law of Sin & Death.
Hell is.......& is a Permanent Condition .....Separation from God worse than just dead.
For the soul that is dead is in this torment.....whether in the flesh or not.
There is absolutely a Place for Fears.......That is why there we have 10 commandments.
If You get caught stealing, raping, killing.......There are WAGES!!!!!!!
If Someone were To RAPE or Kill Your Wife or Daughter ???? Some People might just
Retaliate......Bad KARMA........so a Eye for an Eye or Turn the other Cheek??
There is Warning in this.....& Warnings are ....GOOD & of GOD.
Beware least Someone takes The Fear or The Respect of the Law Away, I did not come to
take away the Law but to fullfill the Law.
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Rob;
Man dude preach it. I am learning a few points here. You have a gift for harmonizing Scriptures. Cool dude, really cool. I like the revelation of Jesus being a grounding rod. The Cross of Jesus was in fact planted into the ground and connected to the air and did in fact act as a grounding Rod.
Now WHY should I fear a God who has provided ME a way to escape penalty for doing the stupid? I think all it will take is ONE eye opener of looking at Jesus on that Cross in my place and all my Character traits can but BOW KNEE to such overwhelming Love provided by My Father. How can ANYONE think God would blaspheme his Son's sacrifice by not Saving the World after seeing that act of Love???? Yes truly there will be many of "my thoughts" that shall never rise again.
Praise the Lord.
Peace.......... |
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Micheal;
Hi There; peace to you and your opinion is most welcome here. feel free to comment.
I guess the human mind/and it's ideology/God perception needs a Hell to discard all of what it values as not eternally needed. Kind of like the backyard of some Homes in the process of being Built. A nice place for the discarded pieces of material, the trash ect. But keep in Mind that Hell is not for the House my friend. Just the pieces that were discarded in making the House. The trials, the moments in time, the education, thoughts that helped teach along the construction of the Human Soul. Maybe a nice place to leave some religions that were necessary along the way.
Hell was not an original concept, this is why you will not find it taught in the old testament or described in detail in scriptures. It's kind of like a concept on auto pilot. A program on evolution control. A needed function in history I guess.
Peace to you my friend........ |
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Rob |
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April 15, 2008 at 12:10pm |
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Amen! And amen!
All those who accept His free gift of redemption can receive it but it take 1) knowing it exists and 2) believing it.
Knowing it exists is something you and I can do about it. Believing it is something each one does for himself. And, if God has mercy on them, they will believe it and receive it. If He chooses to harden them then they will not believe or receive. But we can't look at anybody and determine just by looking whether they are the ones God will have mercy on. So we tell everybody and hope for the best. We don't have to sweat it because God's in control.
Thank God for Jesus!
Rob |
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here here and Amen.
For either God is in Control of ALL or he can not be in control at all.
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Rob |
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April 15, 2008 at 12:41pm |
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We have nothing to fear from God. Jesus understood what He had to do and He did it. We were reconciled to God from the point of the cross. We were justified by His sacrifice. And to prove it, God raised Him from the dead:
The New American Standard Bible translates Romans 4:25 as follows:
"He was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification"
In other words, God raised Jesus from the dead to PROVE that, by His sacrifice, we are now justified. "He was raised BECAUSE of our justification".
The word "atonement" means "turning away of the wrath of God". "Propitiation" means roughly the same thing. Jesus is the Sacrifice of atonement. He is our propitiation. Jesus turns away the wrath of God.
No fear. God is love. In Him is light and there is now no darkness in Him at all - but only to those who believe it. To all others, He's still the God of wrath - that includes Christians and non-Christians. He is no respecter of persons. What that means to me is this: If I don't believe Jesus paid it all then I have something to fear.
Rob |
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My friends;
I will only be able to observe this blog from the evenings. I have a few important responsibilities to maintain. I have a some interesting things to say. I plan on Blogging some much deeper things concerning our Lords exceeding riches of Love toward us. I am sure I will lose a few friends if the past is any indication of the future. Darn I really enjoyed those sunday night pot luck dinners. Ole well Onward Christian soldiers,
Divine Truth is On Fire ............peace ......... |
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First of all There is a Hell....I have Been There, Flames, Torment & God Did not send Me There.
God Does Not Send anyone There People Send Themselves There.
They Decide They are Junk Because they spent a lifetime of folly Building Houses, & throwing
things away Judging themselves under their own Laws they have lived by & condemn themselves.
The Sin Nature -Transgressing Gods Perfect Law, failing to Measure up to Perfection.
I would not Be a Christian if There was not a Hell.
You Heard of Near Death Experiences...Out of Body etc...Well This was Not a Near Death.
This was a Death Experience......Dead Gone.
I Died went To Hell a Real Place.......& In Hell where I spent Eternity No Time, Space,
Measurements etc.,
I Prayed for the first Time, Where There is No Time, & I was a Ghost a Vapor, Praying for a Second Chance to let's make a Deal & I would forever be His Dedicated
Servant ........& HE JESUS Came To Hell & Took Me out of That Place.
& This is not popular either being that the Church World says once You Die & go to Hell
there is no Hope.
If there is a Hell there has to be a Heaven & Vise versa.
& Even Some People as said in Luke If You were only to send one back from the dead to
to warn them of this Place They would still not Listen ... for I have sent all the Prophets &
they do not listen.....because they make themselves out to be WISE without the Need to
Hear from My Prophets.
Blessed Be the one that Believes in Me without seeing Me.
I Am Dead & Buried with Him and Raised With Him Now In All His Glory.
& Bringing Back The Glory Lost in That Garden To His Creation Healing, Restoration, Restitution,
To all things For Heaven Must Retain Him Until, Now, Acts 3rd Chapter.
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Micheal; wow what an experience. I believe in your world this experienced was communicated to your understanding. It appears the language used did in fact get your attention. There are a lot of people that need this kind of image/vision to some how understand their need of God. Too each their own I guess.
It is not the image or forms of communication that would work with me and I guess God knows this about me. I simply would never serve a God who manipulated me with that famous I love you speech but I will really hurt you if you disobey me line. I would gladly take my place in the fire with the lost and hopefully share some comforts with them (for God would never separate me from himself(Jesus Christ). There I can live in Truth without manipulation to the core of my beliefs and no thoughts there could harm me. If any thing I could maybe offer someone a little less fear or torment(If I make me bed in Hell thou art with me Psa.139:8). There's got to be someone there that fell through the cracks (perfect Love cast out hell/fear). You know someone who was not all that Bad, maybe just happened to listen to their parents traditions instead of the doctrine of some traveling preacher preaching a Jesus saves system. But keep in Mind Jesus saves because God Loves and provides to all his creation and treats his enemies Kind.
I kid you not........turn up the heat but I'm still more than willing to descend to the depths to preach the gospel in Hell because God will never allow his Holy Seed to see corruption. He knows I know what a little drop of Love is. It would be like following Jesus into Hell. That is how I look at it. Lets love a few while we are down here, and watch Hell disappear before their eyes and minds.
I do respect your beliefs and believe it is real to you Micheal. That makes Hell a real place for you. I hope you never have to go back there. Scriptural literal Hell CAN NOT be supported. It is a doctrine of tradition and personal teachings of control and manipulation. Any serious bible study will reveal Hell has no original scriptural legs to stand on. Paul never mentioned the place even one time.
Either he forgot or didn't consider eternal damnation a matter of importance. Who knows why.
Not entering into the Kingdom of God does not equal eternal Hell. It might create a situation that is Hell to experience.
Hint: If New Jerusalem dwells within Us, then where would outside the city gates be located?
Where do those outside the Holy City dwell? Where is the garbage pits located? Yeah outside the City walls is correct..........now there at that outer realm you will find those non reformers grouping and un-renewed minds organizing and crafting their golden structured God after a form of religion they can understand.
I hope that helps.............
Peace............... |
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Rob |
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April 17, 2008 at 11:01am |
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Kingdom,
Point of order: The New Jerusalem is mentioned twice in the bible - both times in Revelation.
3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Neither of these references say that the New Jerusalem dwells within us. In fact, from the context it sounds like the church IS the New Jerusalem.
The kingdom of God, however, is "within you" (see Luke 17:21). These are NOT the same thing.
The New Jerusalem is something that comes out of the new heaven onto the new earth. In other words, this universe must be destroyed and there must be a new creation before we see the coming of the New Jerusalem. Science refers to this as the Big Crunch and the Big Bang (respectively). 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rob |
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One more place it is mentioned.......
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (this verse is usually hidden from view for a special reason)
This Jerusalem which is above(not the one over in some middle east pile of dirt who's real name is Egypt and quite a work of deception to the simple naive believers/Rev:11:8)
I was referring to the one Above. The real one not the counterfeit that fools people by the boat loads.
The one above is Our True Mother, unknown to most Male Testosterone preaching pulpit pocket picking preacher types.
Revelations is a symbolic book that signifies Jesus and his Kingdom that is within the locked human mind. (Rev.1:1) These events were not to take place in some distant future, but rather quickly. The Throne is within us. yet we dwell within the Christ realm. I don't want to say more than this because I am not here to take away something that might be a security blanket during hard times.
But nevertheless the King / Kingdom /and city of the great Kingdom all dwell within us all. There are those who know this and those who do not. That is the only difference in this world between all peoples.
Peace........
Most revelations preaching is Hollywood Based and a good way to make a buck on the christian book markets. But God allows this also as to protect many secrets from becoming discovered by the wrong seed. (Matt.13:11) In fact God will cause a wave of delusion to anybody who gets near his secrets without a Love for truth. I guarantee if a preacher is in it for power or fame or greed, that man will have a religion that is deluded (not pure and without power) |
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Rob |
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April 17, 2008 at 6:55pm |
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Oh. Okay. I just thought, when you said, "New Jerusalem", you meant what you said. In the future how should I interpret what you say?
The Jerusalem which is above is a metaphor for the New Covenant. In a way, I suppose you could say that the New Covenant is within us. But the Jerusalem which is above - the mother of us all - is not the New Jerusalem. Okay. Okay. I'll ignore the New Jerusalem reference. As you indicated, you were mistaken. No problem.
On the other hand, God is the mediator of the New Covenant. This covenant is between God and man - all of man, not just the born again man. The Kingdom of God is not a covenant but a realm. We enter the realm of the kingdom of God by being born again. The decisions we make determine whether we are operating within the kingdom of God or the physical realm.
The laws of nature govern the physical realm. The laws of nature work whether we believe them or not. Cause and effect is a reality whether I believe it or not. Gravity works regardless of my faith or lack of it. The laws of the kingdom, on the other hand, only work by faith. Forgiveness and redemption are only available to those who believe that Jesus paid it all. Healing can only come through belief. Walking on water only happens through faith. The wind and the waves only obey him who believes they will obey him.
Just because the New Covenant (the Jerusalem from above) is in effect doesn't make the blessings of that Covenant automatically available. In fact, most church people are not operating in the kingdom of heaven. Most Christians are victims of their circumstance - they walk by sight and not by faith.
I'm not a smart man, Kingdom. You have to be a little more precise in your wording if you want me to follow your train of thought.
Rob |
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So now we have Three Jerusalem's and one is a literal city that is a square box and the other is Egypt and the other is a Mother............wheeeeeeeeew and wait the New covenant is part of our Mother or is that the box in the sky one?
Wow ...and just what's the value of the a vast Kingdom with no limits to expansion doing in my mind......it's a big universe out there and it all fits inside of me....hey who is me anyways........
actually in seriousness....this is why Spiritual things can not be easily understood with the Brain.
The brain has one big rule....................I want to understand God in my fragile limited thinking.
Sorry........God just ain't gonna fit...but the brain never accepts that simple answer, so it builds its self a God that does fit and smiles and says............I am right.
Peace |
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Rob |
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April 17, 2008 at 8:05pm |
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And...
There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.
Truth is not some mystical, unknowable, nebulous, cloud. Truth is something that can be believed and learned. Jumping from one thing to another is not the way to teach anything let alone the truth. In my experience, if someone is jumping from one thing to another, he either doesn't know what he's talking about or he's trying to manipulate and control.
It's okay to not understand the scriptures, Kingdom. Nobody's got everything figured out. I've been studying this thing off and on for 30-years. I've probably done more thinking about it than you. That's okay.
You love God - that is obvious. You don't understand some of the fundamentals yet. That's okay. If you're intellectually and spiritually honest, you will attempt to test every spirit to see if it lines up with what the bible says about it. If you're not intellectually and spiritually honest, you'll wind up like all the preachers I've ever known - you'll just be guessing.
Peace out |
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all true Rob......But we do have to lighten up and enjoy the diversity. I have a very intelligent and study side to me. But I also have my friend been involved in the debating side where the human spirit just will not allow Spiritual Truth to be Spiritual. Take for example The New Jerusalem. It was spoken about only in the Book Of Revelation. This book is a signified and allegorical way to describe something spiritual in a human understanding. But also it was placed in metaphoric pictures to keep some of it's treasures hidden from those who do not love the truth.
I really have to say Rob, do you really think Jesus actually marries a city? The city has the Father and the Son dwelling there as it's light. But also we know that God is dwelling in Us his true Tabernacles. We are like a bride being prepared. Do you see what I am saying. Many ideas pointing to the same type of meaning. We are the tabernacle.
These Spiritual insights can not truly be taken literally. I know most Christians pick and choose what they want to be metaphoric and then defend the rest as literal. But this is not the way revelations was intended to be taken (literally) It can't be taken literally. Because there is not some sheep running about and one of them stands on a throne. These traits are describing certain images so that are brain can understand it's deep meanings.
Christians just can't get past the literal and this is why they do not understand their Bibles Spiritually. They try to maneuver between an old testament God view and suddenly he changes to an more nicer God view in the new testament. Yes I know each have their understandings about how they choose the parts to follow, thus we have many religions. But the secrets are in the allegorical side of the writings.
The garden of Eden all the way to revelations is allegories and metaphoric in meaning. This is why we are no longer to see Jesus in the flesh. We are to see him in Spirit but the human experience is not invited into that realm. (truth is not for sissies you know, it takes heart to know the Truth) Few know what is really going on in our minds. They have no idea how clever the Devil is in camoflauging himself in right looking doctrines. Deep down inside though, I still believe people know the manipulation of doctrine that is in our minds.
I think you get my point.........The literal letter of the Word brings death, and so we have wars and disputes to each party or groups who view it as such. The Spiritual meanings require an ear and eye that only God can unseal and inspire. Maturity and Unveiling take some time to develop.
But the rewards are well worth it and the freedom is without weights or chains.
I am very busy yet looking for some available time to blog in some meat. This meat is depth that can only be given from the Lord himself. It is not for easily offended people. It is for people who understand that God is expressed in human nature. People who agree with you are easy to Love.
Few can Love what does not agree with themselves.
Peace........... |
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Rob |
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April 17, 2008 at 10:25pm |
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Come on, man. We can't start calling different things the same thing. Either we know what the writers are talking about or we don't.
The New Jerusalem represents the bride. The Jerusalem from above represents the New Covenant. These are not the same thing. John wrote Revelation. Paul wrote Galatians. They are two different authors making two different points. It's not a matter of destroying lives with the letter of the law that's a whole other issue entirely.
Words mean something. Allegorical words mean something too. Your aversion to the word of God seems to be due to a lack of understanding. All you need is a little more study. You've got the right Spirit and the right instincts. All you need now is a little mastery of the word. Trust me, it has more weight than, "This meat is depth that can only be given from the Lord himself".
I've read a few of the Gnostic Gospels. Those writers used phrases like "knowledge is knowing that God is knowledge". It's the most ridiculous stuff you'll ever read. It's all empty words. Peter said they were "clouds without rain".
I hear what you're saying, "The kingdom of God is within you". Okay. Now, what's the kingdom of God? God dwells in the tabernacle of the heart. Great. That means something. What's so important about God dwelling in the tabernacle of the heart? What's a tabernacle and why should we care?
Getting to the truth is not easy but it's not impossible. Not everything has been revealed (like the time and date of the second coming) but what has been revealed? Why is it important to me? Does it make any difference if I choose not to believe what's been revealed?
I am saved. What does "saved" mean? Saved from what? Why is it important?
The saints overcame the devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. What is the "word of their testimony"? Should I have a testimony? Can I overcome without a testimony? Why do I want to overcome the devil? Who's the devil?
All these questions are of utmost importance to everyone on the planet and most churches do not teach what the bible says about any of it. We can add to that lack of information by ignoring the bible and making up our own "meat from the Lord himself" like they do.
Spiritual maturity doesn't mean you stay in ignorance of the bible for long periods of time. It's called the word of God for a reason.
Call me worldly, but I kinda view this thing like I view my career. I'm a professional nerd. I had to study what I know. I had to prove to myself that I knew what I thought I knew. My faith is like any other technology. You don't get good by doing your own thing and hoping for the best. In fact, if you practice doing the wrong thing long enough you have to go through the pain of unlearning the wrong way before you can be good at practicing the right way. You've seen guys in your field, I'm sure, that need to be taught the right way to do things.
When I was a member of the church of Christ and the Catholic Church before that, I picked up LOTS of bad habits. Because I didn't renew my mind, I found that my life wasn't working. My religion wasn't bringing me peace; far from it. So, I "died and went to hell". Not like the other dude, but virtually.
Kingdom, I'm a convicted sex offender. My life REALLY went into the toilet. Thanks be to God, when I cried out to Jesus to save me (to take me back), He was faithful and kind. That's been almost 5-years ago. In that time, God has taught me the meaning and value of complete and total salvation from sin. Up until then, I did not know what sin was or what salvation meant.
In my travels I find that nobody knows what sin is, what it does, how it's fed, or how to get free from it. The bible teaches all that. The church doesn't teach how to get free because the church, by their own admission, is content to remain in sin.
I'm rambling. Sorry,
Rob |
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Rob;
Trust me I hear you and know exactly the importance of what you are saying. You are right.
So are many others right. I can not say everything I believe. It goes off the pages and experiences of the human mind. Most people think anything beyond their own personal walk can not be God.
God, that is The heavenly Father of us all, revealed some things to me that secure the entire human race beyond their capacity to understand. We broken peoples see in little blocks of information. We earth dwellers can barely retain or memory. God is fully aware that we have to work against the DNA grain molded in our mind sets.
There is quite a bit more to God than all the past written documents know. Some things are just known by another way. This other way does put me and the sound doctrine team at odds.
Anybody can play the God told me game. The only doctrine you need is your mind. Yeah I am very aware of the near edge such ways incur. But the Lord revealed to my sound doctrine mind that there is in fact off the chart revelations that do have roots planted in scriptures. Always roots in scriptures. This world is not Lost. It is in an experience mode. A feel mode. A contrast mode. A duality environment. The Agape Love of God is under test/stress. These complex times are refining the wisdom of God's Son. He is learning by the things He is experiencing.
It is not about being lost as in eternity lost. God Loves therefore there can not be a separation from that Loving God. There is no ability given to Mankind to out last the Long suffering Will of God. The Bible is not the Final word of God believe it or Not. Jesus Christ is the Final (last) word of God. He will never condemn mankind, nor will he Judge mankind the way mankind thinks he will. He will divide mankind from their oppressors. He will divide mankind from their captors. He will judge mankind by releasing him from his blind darkness.
We can not see clearly. Even what we see is but a shadow that we are attempting to understand.
You say "lets see accurately" But this is impossible because our brains are not wired together.
In fact the human being does not even agree with the left side of their own brain, much less the brain of another. This is not about getting saved as religious folk believe. It is about experience in Loving someone that is not like yourself. God is expressed in over 5 billion people as I write this.
These 5 billion people would not sit at the same table due to the extreme differences each share.
(This is the experience)
Jesus was surrounded in nit wits, ignorant fools, hard headed fixed minded stone heads. But he Loved them all. Love is the only way to grow and please God. Doctrine can only be manually organized defeating it's power. Christ is the Love of God.
There is a higher way. If we Love, we do far higher a service to God that we would have if we trained an army of believer to follow sound doctrine. Following sound doctrine is what the early Jewish people did. Yet lack they what. (I am fully aware that this is heresy in the eyes of the Fundy crowd) But it is True. Love is the high point of service not doctrine) (Heb 6:1) If we can only love our own doctrine and our own religions then our years will be spent here in vain. Fear of God is the best of Satan's arsenal. It will paralyze your service to walk in higher awareness
Doctrine is important. Very very wise indeed. But doctrine will hinder your Love walk toward others. So Love first. Doctrine second. ....any other way is a train wreck.
All mankind beings/ even some animals have another presence/mind dweller/sin occupying their bodies. Some call these devils others sin nature even others negative thoughts. But they all conclude a sin dwelling presence in the human mind. I can take no judgement for you or anyone for that matter. I understand that your devil and my devil are both enemies of our Love walk here on earth.
I am (spirit) not guilty for what they do through me. I do reap what they are allowed to sow. God does not hold their trespasses against me. But he does these dwellers of sin man-is fest ed. But this is another blog.....and deeper into the rabbit hole.
out of here ..off to work.....peace within and without......... |
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Rob |
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April 18, 2008 at 8:15am |
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I hate to keep doing this to you but the word "doctrine" just means "teaching". By saying we should walk in love, you are teaching something. Therefore, by the Webster definition, you have doctrine.
You can have the most wonderful revelation ever but without proper grounding in certain fundamentals you cannot communicate that message. If you cannot communicate it then who can benefit?
Not having these skills doesn't make anyone a bad person - just a bad (ineffective) preacher (communicator). If the revelation is from God, it shouldn't violate, contradict, or confuse previous revelation.
For example: I could say "God is good. He wants me to have pleasure." - These are both true. "I think having pleasure means getting drunk every night. Therefore, God wants me to get drunk."
That logic makes sense. The only problem is that it violates prior revelation. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Without knowledge of the prior revelation, we can be deceived into thinking God wants us to ruin our lives with alcohol.
That may be a bad example but the principle is the same. The apostle John said this: 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. "Try" or "test" every spirit. One of the best way to test the spirits is to compare it with what has been previously revealed. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. God will not tell you something and then tell me the exact opposite.
We should take that approach with the scriptures too. How many Messianic Christians are out there trying to keep the Law of Moses (A.K.A. Torah)? They don't realize that the Old Covenant has passed away. They're still plugging away at the law - but at least they're being honest about it. Most Christians are under law, but that's another blog.
The measure that I use to judge whether someone knows what he's talking about is mastery of the word. How skilled is he at using the revealed truth to develop his theology? Most preachers I've heard are miserable failures. A few are awesome. So if you get the feeling I'm looking at you out of the corner of my eye. I am.
Peace,
Rob |
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Hahaha Rob your pretty cool. I like your style. Hey dude. I listen to every word and I want you to know I agree with your intentions and yes I agree with the safety of the foundation of the Word.
I consider you a teacher who can influence me.
The revelation God has given me is treat people nice. Respect them and the levels they abide on. Whether above my understanding or below it or equal. Because of these revelations inspired by God, I have a deep understanding that God is in complete control of everything under the sun. All activity.(I know, I know more heretic talk) But It is what it is and there is no way to un-revelate it.
God is in control (another blog) What I speak is every step is toward his master plan.
Due to this revelation, I can not really see a false Prophet as a false rebellious evil outsider / operating on self mode beyond God's handiwork. His sovereign plan does not allow free agents. His plan does allow deception that is organized in step toward his purpose.
So I just see people as role play or actors on a stage. Doing their part. It is mankind that judges everything as either Good or evil. After all that's one of the effect of eating fruit from that tree. Mankind was simply not ready to handle God. Due to this immaturity, we have every body pointing the finger and saying hey ...I am the way to the right way. Listen to me. I am sincere therefore I have to be right. But looking downward from a higher awareness, there is not a right and wrong like you my friend probably understand. (Yep...I know I'm in heretical thinkin now) But Jesus Christ can zap your simple thinking and open you up and think through your awareness and shazammmmmm you are aware of a higher awareness.
Ole me..............I think I will try a new and safer Blog. Like Be good to your neighbor or something.
Peace to all |
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Rob |
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April 18, 2008 at 7:07pm |
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I am re-reading "The Gospel of Peace" by Jim Richards. You would like this book. He talks very much like you. He has a very firm scriptural basis for his doctrine too. Look for it on Amazon or somewhere.
Peace, bro |
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I might look into it as time permits, thank you.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
As you probably know the translaters just had to add a word to organize it toward their ideology. But at least we know God is delighted in the direction man is walking toward.
Love to the world who I call my family....... |
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Dear Kingdom and Rob, What an interesting debate. It has made me think...A LOT! I would love to see more from you guys.
Grace and Peace to you both
Robin |
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Sorry...but I have to agree with my whole heart here with Michael! HELL IS A PLACE! HELL has “sides” (Isaiah 14:15).
HELL has “gates” (Matthew 16:18).
HELL has “keys” which Jesus now holds (Revelation 1:18).
Hell is “a furnace of FIRE” (Matthew 13:42).
Hell is a lake | |
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