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| A Can Of Worms With The Lid Popped Off |
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Our sins are no longer an issue with God
Yes. You heard me correctly. Just so there is no confusion, I'll say it again. Our sins are no longer an issue with God!
SIDEBAR
ADDED 04/12/08
Let me insert a paragraph here as a sidebar to clarify some misconceptions about what I am trying to say here.
First of all, I am not saying that we should live in sin. I am not saying that it's OK. I am trying to say that when we do sin, and we all do, that God does not withdraw from us. In other words, we do not lose our salvation. I suppose I could have titled this blog Eternal Redemption. That's basically the message contained herein.
But it is very hard to look at the passages I present and the explanation that I offer and not understand that God is spirit and that he sees the spirit part of us. As a born again believer, you have been united with Jesus into one spirit, You are joined with Him, and because of that, our sins are no longer being imputed towards us. An understanding of spirit, soul, and body is essential in understanding this truth. Try to see the message of this blog as what you have in the spirit, and not what you feel in the flesh.
END SIDEBAR
How does that statement strike you? I know that to many, this sounds like heresy. But it's not me saying this. It is the Gospel!
Let me start by saying that there is a huge difference between Sin and our sins. Sin was the initial nature we were born into because of the fall. But our sins, are a different animal altogether. We were born with a Sin nature. But to those have been born again, that Sin nature has been crucified and buried!
I am attempting to express a very serious issue here. Expressing it and explaining it are two different things, Explaining it is going to take some time. Time I have. Time is not an issue either. But do I have the time tonight, right now?, No. Therefore, this blog will be expanding. I am throwing this out here tonight just to begin to hack away some of the weeds. Tilling the soil is the next step.
Undoubtedly this topic will bring the wolves. But this isn't prophecy, it's the Word
Without an understanding of Spirit, soul. and body, this truth is going to be hard for most to grasp, especially the religious crowd. But there is a plethora of scripture backing my point. Can I present all of it in one blog? Of course not. But does what I have to say need to be heard, without a doubt. It is the gospel!
Sin consciousness. Does this phrase sound familiar? We are told in the Word that we are no longer to be sin conscious. Why is that? Because the way a man thinketh, so is he. What we think on, or mediate on becomes us.
We have died to sin, or we should have. Sin is no longer the issue.
Our sins have been paid for. Not only the sins of the believer, but the sins of the whole world. Does this mean that everyone is saved? Of course not. It is up to us to appropriate that payment. We have to cash it in. It's like a check has been written in our name but if we never take it to the bank, it is of no value.
Jesus paid the price for all Sin.
Just like if we preach the law, then we become subject to the law. Likewise, if we preach about sins, people are more likely to commit those sins. But if we preach about love, then love is more likey to prevail.
It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance. My own life exemplifies that truth.
I have so very much to share on this topic. Consider this a preview of what else I have to say. I just popped the lid. Let all the worms crawl out and then we can fill the can back up with truth. Amen.
Before I temporarily end this blog, let me leave you with a couple of scriptures to ponder:
John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
Notice Jesus is talking about Sin, singular. Not our individual sins. Then he tells us what this sin is: Not believeingin Him
2 Corintians 5:18-19
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
We have been reconciled and He is no longer counting our sins against us. Not only that, but the same ministry of reconciliation, and not counting peoples sins against them, has been given to us!
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Are we under the law? No. Are sins being imputed or counted against us? No.
I have many, many more scriptures to discuss.....This topic has been in the Spirit of my my mind (Eph. 4:23) for a long time. And this is a message that needs to be preached. The problem is, most churches won't preach it. It goes against what we have been taught for so very long.
Just because you have not been taught this, don't think it's wrong. Most religious people won't let the Word of God get in the way of what they believe.
The apostle Paul presupposed the question of, "What then? Shall we continue to live in Sin" Four times in the book of Romans Paul answered this question. If people are not asking you this same question then you are not preaching the same Gospel (Good News) as Paul.
I am out of time but I will say that living under the conscious of sin is exactly what the devil wants you to do. We are to break free from that. Am I justifying Sin? God forbid. But understanding the Love of God will cause you to live holier accidentally than you ever did on purpose....
ADDITION - 04/12/08
I mentioned above that Paul answered at least 4 times the question of "What then? Shall we continue to live in Sin". In Romans Chapter 6 Paul gives an explanation of why we should not sin, and I plan on quoting some of Paul's message here in just a moment.
First let's look at the the first few verses from Psalm 32:
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.
David saw that there was coming a day when the Lord would not be holding our sins against us. "Blessed is he". Well, we are 'he'. He was prophesying about a new covenant. This was David, the man after God's own heart. The same man that committed adultery and then murdered to cover it up.
The look at Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness. But was Abraham perfect? Did he live a sinless life? No. Abraham married his half sister. According to the Levitical Law, had it been in effect, Abraham should have been put to death. Not only did he marry a half sister, but on at least two occasions Abraham tried to allow others to have sex with his wife just to save his own hide. If that was to happen today it would make the headlines, yet Abraham still became the spiritual father of us all who believe.
Sin is not imputed when there is no law. I quoted this earlier from Romans 5:13. There are so many examples of this in scripture. Take Adam and Eve back in the Garden for example. I hear it preached so often that God banned Adam and Eve from the Garden because they sinned against him by eating the forbidden fruit, and at that point he separated from them. That's not why God banned them from the garden. He banned them from the Garden for their own protection. I have a previous blog that explains my viewpoint on this called "Thank God for Death". Did you know that after they were banned from the Garden God still continued to meet with them and talk to them in an audible voice. He still fellowshipped with them. He didn't immediately desert them because he could not look upon sin. Then look at Cain, the very first murderer. God protected Cain. Sounds like grace to me.
The point I am trying to get across in this entire blog is that our sins do not cause God to withdraw from us. Living with this mentality is what causes such a roller coaster affect in the emotions of those who think this way. If you believe that today your saved, then tomorrow you sin, now you're not saved, then, only if you get that sin back under the blood, now you're saved again; then you are living under self condemnation. SIn consciousness. You will constantly doubt that God can use you because you do not feel worthy.
Sins are not an issue with God. Sins are an issue with us. Sins bring death to our physical bodies and cause all sorts of problems for us and for those around us. Sin opens a door for the devil to operate in your life. Every time you sin it's like painting a big target in your forehead and saying, "OK devil, give me your best shot!" He is going to take advantage of that. Additionally, you are going to be constantly condemned by your own conscious, or the spirit of your mind.
So many people talk about the Holy Spirit convicting them each time they sin. I would like to impose that the Holy Spirits ministry is a positive one. He's not constantly condemning us. That's your own conscious. The Holy Spirit is the comforter, the teacher, our helper, our friend. Would you be friends with someone who was constantly putting you down? Always pointing out your faults? I don't think so. The Holy Spirit just wants to continuously point you to the fact that you are not trusting in Jesus. He's the one that is building you up, not tearing you down.
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit. I quoted this earlier from Psalms 32. That last line speaks so very much to me. As I stated earlier, having an understanding of spirit, soul, and body is key to coming to terms with the point I am trying to make. Our spirit is the part of that HAS been redeemed. Our spirit is the part of us that was made righteous and truly holy. Our spirit has been made perfect. Our spirit has been joined as one with the Lord. Therefore, we that are truly born again, are not just human. One third of us is wall-to-wall Holy Ghost. In our spirit, we cannot sin. I believe this helps to understand the passages found in 1 John. John says "we cannot sin". But he also says that if we say we have no sin, then we are a liar. The only explanation of this is to know that he is saying that in our spirits we cannot sin. Our spirits have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of truth.
I have got to temporarily end this addition to the blog once again. I will have some more time later to further my explanation. But until then, I want to leave you with a couple verses to ponder:
Ephesians 4:24
and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
What is he talking about here, the new man? That's your born again spirit. And it WAS, past tense, created in true righteousness and holiness. It was created that way. Nothing we do can change that, It, or he, was created that way!
1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
I don't know about you, but that verse speaks volumes upon volumes to me. As HE is, speaking about Jesus, so are WE, in THIS WORLD! Not sometime off in the future, not after we grow to become 100% sinless, RIGHT NOW. You're born again self, the spirit part of you, is exactly the same as Jesus, that's powerful!
Sorry to cut this off again.....I'll be back.....keep those comments coming....like I said, I do in fact read them and will eventually respond....Later!
ADDITION No. 2 - 04/12/08
OK.....I am going to make an attempt to get the rest of my point across and then I can't wait to talk about some of the comments below, which are very good by the way.
I was talking about how our spirit is the part of that has been born again. John 4:24 says God is spirit, those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is Spirit. God relates to us in the spirit. God speaks to us in the spirit. God sees us in the spirit. He does not look unto the carnal body, or even our carnal minds.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
It is so difficult for us, or at least the human part of us to conceive this truth. We are carnal minded. Carnal means of the flesh. We cannot seem to get beyond what we can see, hear, smell, touch, and feel. We cannot grasp spiritual reality. Why not? Because that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. That's the whole point I am trying to make. God sees you in the spirit. The born again, sanctified, righteous, holy, made perfect, eternally redeemed, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The same Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead. That's what God sees. To say you are unworthy in the eyes of God is to say that Jesus is unworthy in the eyes of God. God does not see your sins any longer. It's a tough pill to swallow, I know. But that's what the Word of God teaches.
Can't seem to come to peace with this? Maybe it's because you are not spiritually minded?
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Then in verse 9:
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
1 Corinthians 6:17:
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Now there is a powerful verse. Are you joined to the Lord? Are you one Spirit with him? Is God pleased with you? I hope the answer to that question is yes! If you are one spirit with the Lord, can your spirit sin? No!
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Sealed. Vacuum packed for the purpose of preservation. You spirit has been sealed. Sins that are committed in the body or in the mind, in other words the physical and or soulish realm cannot penetrate your spirit. It HAS been sealed. That seal is the guarantee of our inheritance. Is God going to go back on something He has guaranteed? I do not think so. He is not a man that He should lie.
I want to take a look at just a few verses in Hebrews. Hebrews is an awesome book and chapters 8, 9, and 10, along with others, literally changed my life. I know this blog is running long so I am going to skip to a couple of the key verses, then I will try to bring all this to a conclusion.
Hebrews 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Having obtained, already done, a completed work, eternal redemption. Not momentary redemption. Not redeemed just until we sin again. Eternal.
Hebrews 9:26-28
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
He has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. It's a done deal. Verse 27 speaks of judgment. So many people think of judgement as a negative thing. Did it ever occur to you that not everyone who comes before a judge is found guilty? It is possible to be justified, or found innocent in a court of law, just as we have been justified because of His sacrifice. When he comes back, it is apart from sin. In other words, not to judge for our sins, but to bring into fullness our salvation.
Hebrews 10:1-4
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
This verse is showing a contrast between the old testament sacrifices and the one-time sacrifice of Jesus. Could those sacrifices make those that approach perfect? No. But in contrast, the once for all sacrifice of Jesus does. Verses 2 and 3 talk about consciousness or a yearly reminder of sins. Now with the perfect sacrifice haven taken place, we are no longer to be sin conscious.
Hebrews10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Sanctified, set apart, made Holy, once, for all people, for all time.
Hebrews 10:12-14
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
One sacrifice for sins forever. One offering. He has perfected, past tense, forever, for all time. Not just until we sin again, those who are being sanctified, that's us!
Hebrews 10:15-18
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them, 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Here the Holy Spirit is condemning us, right? Wrong. He is witnessing to us. What is He witnessing? That our sins and lawless deeds God will not remember any longer. The once-for-all, once-for-all time, the perfect and life giving sacrifice has been made. Our spirit have been perfected forever. Wow! That's Good News!
So again, my point is, that your spirit made has been made brand new. It is perfected and sealed.
Let me talk just a minute about sin and then I am going to wrap this up.
I mentioned earlier how Paul answered the question about "shall we continue to live in sin". Four times he address this, just in the book of Romans. Why do you think he kept bringing this up? Because Paul was given the message of grace. He was called to bring this Good News. He was so adamant about it that he called it THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. Grace was his message. Paul understood grace. He was the sinner of all sinners. He was the Pharisee of Pharisees. But then God opened his eyes, literally. God opened my eyes too. Not so that I could be free to sin, but so that I could be free from sin. Huge difference. God gives us the desires of our hearts. No, he doesn't give us everything we desire. but he puts new desires in our hearts. His love will cause you to live holy, not the other way around. He changes our "Want To".
What was Paul's answer to that question?
Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
What I get from Paul's response here, like he says, is that we become slaves of that which we choose to obey. In other words, if we continue to live in sin then we open a major door for the devil, as I previously stated, We give Satan an inroad into our lives. Satan comes only to steal kill, and destroy. Sin is going to cause major problems. It brings death. Death to our bodies. Death doesn't only mean dying, it means depression, loneliness, frustration, anger, bitterness, and on, and on. But obedience brings life. In other words, abundant life. Here on this earth life. Life eternal is ours already, but to live a fruitful, productive, peace filled and happy life, we should be obedient.
We all sin my friends. All of us. One of the major points I am trying to make in this blog is that being constantly aware of sin and being trapped on that teeter-totter of - am I in right standing with God or not, is not living abundantly. If you feel like you loose your salvation every time you sin, then you also loose everything that the Lord has been building you up to be. It's like you have to confess, get born again again, then start all over. That's not the way God expects you to be. He wants you to come boldly before him. He wants you operating in His power. He desires continuous growth.
God sees sin as sin. Not big sins and little sins. James 2:10 says that whoever keeps the law, yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. That verse is highly important. God does not see sin the way we do. We tend to put different levels of punishment on sin, but God sees any sin as sin. We can never, that is in our flesh, meet God's perfect standard of holiness. James 2:9 says if we show partiality, we sin. Wow. How often do we do that? For most of us it's almost every day if not several times a day. What about breaking the speed limit? Do you speed? I do. Romans chapter 13 says we are to obey all earthly authorities. If you believe that scripture then I sin almost every day. Sins are not only the things we do, but sometimes the things we don't do. James 4:17 says to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. Do we always do what is good? Do we love each other the way Christ loves the church? Do we help everyone in need? Do we lay hands on the sick each time? Do we make disciples? Do we always do the right thing? No, we don't.
My point is my friends is that we are sinners. Not because we have a sin nature, but because we have yet to completely renew our minds. Our old spirit, which was a child of the devil, taught our minds and our physical bodies to sin. It was our nature. Now that old spirit has been crucified. We have been given a brand new spirit. Our minds and our bodies have not caught up to that yet. We have to retrain our minds, or re-teach our flesh. We have to begin to operate according to the Spirit and not the flesh. How do we walk in the Spirit? By walking in the Word. John 6:63 Jesus says. "My words are spirit, and they are life. God's Word is Spirit. To be spiritually minded is to be Word minded. Renewing your mind to the word of God will cause you to live holier than you ever did on purpose!
One last point and then I am through:
I mentioned this in the beginning and I want to close with this.
Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance. I personally can attest to this truth. For the first 40 years of my life, I lived in hell. I had been preached to about repenting and about the fear of God's wrath, When you are already living in a form of hell, you have no reason to fear it. I knew that I was living in sin, but being preached to about repenting to save myself from being eternally damned, was not enough to make me want to change. People who are living in sin know they are living in sin. They know it's wrong. Paul describes in Romans Chapter 1, verses 18-20 how God has already been revealed to each man. That we have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong. That even the things that cannot be seen have been made clearly visible. That's a powerful passage. I knew I was going to hell, it didn't scare me. But then, I got ahold of the grace message. I heard about the love of God. I began to understand that he loved me even while I was a sinner. I started realizing that his love for me has nothing to do with my actions. God loved me. His love is what drew me to Him, not fear. His love changed my life. His love keeps me wanting more and more of Him and because of that, by default, I live holier and holier with each passing day. He is the God of Restoration.
Your salvation is not dependant on what you do. If it were, then why do you need a savior. You seem to be taking on all that responsibility yourself. With that line of thinking, only you can keep yourself holy. All I can say is that if you plan on maintaining that standpoint, hang on for the ride. There are going to be many ups and downs and a lot of twists and turns.
As for me, I have chosen to accept what has already been given to me. I have chosen to walk in the truth of the fact that I have been eternally redeemed and nothing, aside from me blatantly rejecting Jesus as my Lord is going to take that away. I have chosen the path where the mountain tops have been lowered and the valleys have been exalted. He has made a smooth trail for me to follow and I will, walk thereon.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Thank you brothers and sisters for taking the time to hear what I had to say. I am glad to have got this out and off my chest. It's a serious message. Some will absorb it, and let it grow, others will trample upon it and let it die. The choice is indeed yours.
I love you all in the name of The Lord Jesus, The Christ!
Amen!
Romans 8:37-39
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
See follow-up blog "Regard No One According To The Flesh"
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| To add a comment to "A Can Of Worms With The Lid Popped Off" |
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| April 10, 2008 |
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If these verses were in a court of Law they would tell you that the world and the believer are both included in the scriptures you presented. If the SIN of unbelief (according to your above statement) is what the so called SIN is, then the sum total of your freedom from the LAW that demands a work would include having to believe (which is a work). Again the first SIN, did not demand that you cash the check, before the debt was applied to your name and account. Nor does the above verses state that this SIN is removed by your choice. Just stating the Facts.
Last but not really least....are you sure ALL THINGS are of God ? Maybe we need to change that one too. Because a court of Law would demand that God step up and take responsibility for hummmmm allllll things..........but then again...maybe he did ? |
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| April 10, 2008 |
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| There is now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Jesus died once and for all for the godly and the ungodly to bring them to God. God dealt with our sin once and for all on the cross. However, we still sin, but if we walk in the light as He is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we lie and his truth in not in us, but if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to clease us from all unrighteousness. He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might have the righteousness of God in Him. Keep on Preaching HIs grace! |
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| April 10, 2008 |
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I sort of feel like we walked around and ended up back at the beginning. Kind of dizzy, but then I struggle with that in Romans seven also. I think we are dead to the law but frre to live in Christ.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
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| April 10, 2008 |
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I have an issue with the way the grace message is taught. Not with grace, but the way it comes across. It seems to be carbon copied from ministers to the believers. The way you make it sound, is, it is ok to sin, because we are under grace. " Our sins are no longer an issue with God!" The way I see it, grace is the gift we are given from the Father to be able to ask for forgiveness, not having to comply with the laws that Moses set out. For Christ fulfilled those laws. We no longer have to have blood sacrifices for sins, we no longer have to be put out of camp because of mold, we are not required to bring a guilt offering because we touched something unclean, I could go on with the hundreds of laws that Moses wrote. If we are not to live a holy life, then we need to get ride of the scriptures in the New Testament that says we are. Even Christ told those He healed, go and sin no more. True we should not dwell on sin, we should dwell on His good news, that we are be forgiven, if we repent and turn from our sins. No one is perfect, except Christ, but He wants us to strive towards perfection. If we don't have to concerned about sin, why then did Paul write multiple times, to reprove, to rebuke, to live righteously. |
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| April 10, 2008 |
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sorry, tired when typing this, corrected grammar... True we should not dwell on sin, we should dwell on His good news, that we are forgiven, if we repent and turn from our sins. |
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| April 10, 2008 |
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It's time to shed those graveyard clothes of sin, and step into the Resurretion Life! Great Word! |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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| Great blog Micheal.I am looking forward to what you have to say .This is definatly a message that needs to be taught. |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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Great comments and they are much appreciated.
Lots of items on my plate this morning so I do not have adequate time to address each of your comments or further the message I am trying to relay. But I'll be back.
I pray that everyone has a great day!
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| April 11, 2008 |
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Oh, that I would finally fully embrace this fact. But I don't need to say it - the WORD says all this for me: 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 whom God set forth `to be' a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 3:26 for the showing, `I say', of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 5:18 So then as through one trespass `the judgment came' unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness `the free gift came' unto all men to justification of life. 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. 5:20 And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: 5:21 that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. I want this fact imprinted on my heart! |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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| I didn't read all of the comments so not sure what everyone else had to say. I struggled the first time I heard that Jesus died for my sins both past, present and future. I just didn't get it but it is true. I believe in the flesh we are capable of sin but because we accepted the gift of salvation we are convicted immediately by the Holy Spirit. I look forward to your follow up blogs on this topic. |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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I am forgiven of my sins, IF I repent.But if I continue in sin and don't turn from them, I develop a seared conscience. Unworthy of the kingdom of God. 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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| Looking forward to reading the rest of what you are going to share. I am working on a series of blogs myself right now, that will run parallel with what you are saying here...One is actually titled "Shall we keep on sinning? By no means!" This has been heavy on my heart lately. |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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Michael did this once before in another's blog...and I think the fact that both times he ASSUMED the reader understood that repenting (turning away from) our sins and accepting of Christ as our savior (the one who paid for our sins where our acts or sacrifice could not) defeated sin and death and allowed us to be REBORN in Him. I think the point of this is that STILL people hang onto their past sins (me included) though they are ERASED by God. We hang on to them because the devil wants us to. God has forgiven and erased them...never to brought up again. And that's a wonderful thing! |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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Very few and I mean very few Christians actually enjoy the freedom that is in Jesus Christ and his cross of salvation.
Are any of you aware that Paul the Apostle who wrote most of our New Testament actually lived in this Salvation that Jesus provided to everyone.
He Said : That God doesn't look the same way we do at sin. In Fact Paul said it was NO LONGER HIM THAT SINNED BUT RATHER A SIN NATURE NOT ACCOUNTED TO HIMSELF.
Look close to what Paul actually said.
Rom 7:17 "Now then" it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Can any of us say It is no longer " I " me myself and I who sins
I think it is time for us to stop carrying all these sin bricks but rather download them back to where they came from.
I am not the sinner in God's eyes but rather the nature in me is doing the sin. This is why God is going to get us all a new Body, as part of the Gift of salvation is being made a NEW CREATURE.
......who told you are naked? |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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So, according to the you, it is ok for Christians to kill, to have adultery, to curse God, to live in any sin, without repercussions from God. Where is the righteousness here? Where is the separation? According to what you write, we can take the rest of the New Testament that teaches that we are to be Holy, to be sanctified, so that we can continue to live carnal lives? This type of belief leads to damnation. It is an excuse to keep your fleshly master, yes, Lucifer himself as your master. For Paul also wrote, that which you serve, flesh or Spirit, is your master. |
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| April 11, 2008 |
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| Well, I sinned today, felt HORRIBLE, glad God was there to pour the blood of Jesus on this broken...now restored vessel!! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Again, all of these are very good comments, and thanks.
I planned on coming back last night to add some more to my message but was so tired after work. I laid down at 5:30 yesterday afternoon and slept straight through until 6:30 this morning. Wow. I must have really needed the rest, eh?
As I stated earlier in my blog, there is a lot of explanation that is required to make clear the point that I am trying to get across. And rather than address each one of your comments individually, I have decided to continue with an addition to the original message. I am certain that most of your thoughts and concerns will be addressed, eventually. So, later this morning I will be adding an update.
Please understand, that I am NOT advocating sin. Sin is bad. SIn is terrible. Sin will bring death, that is, death to our physical bodies. I do not believe that it causes God to separate from us and I have several reason for believing this, all scriptural.
This is not an easy topic to discuss. I also realize that there may in fact be some "babes" in Christ that take this message the wrong way, and they are confused by that. That is not my intent either.
Bear with me, once I am able to express the entire scope of what I am saying, THEN, I will be more than glad to discuss any of your other points of view. I do not want to get side tracked from my train of thought.
Thanks again for your thoughts and participation, I am reading your comments and do take what you have to say into consideration.
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Are you advocating sin? hehe JUST KIDDING!!!!!!
Did you need that much sleep cuz your old?? hehe |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| Contemplating taking off the previous message....lets see......uh.....nope! hehe |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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I resemble that stament Cheryl!
My physical man is getting old.....but my spirit man is feeling quite froggy!
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| arggg, your as bad as the tv series my wife watches, gets you to the good part, and leaves you hanging, until next week.... lol |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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I know Gary...I hate to do that....but like I said in the beginning...this blog will continue to grow as I cannot say everything I am trying to say in one sitting...I am glad you're here though my friend!
See ADDITIONS to this blog above!
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Paul said it was not I who sins but rather a sin nature dwelling in Him. He believed he was the rightousness of God. The rightousness of God is not a sinner. If we are the body of Christ then equally to say the Body sins but the head does not is impossible. The Body follows the head(at least with me it does)
My hand and feet do not sin and my head remain blamless.
The DEVIL has been hidding this secret and doesn't want the Body to be connected to Jesus.
Michael I bet you will soon get some WMD (weapons of mass detraction) on this post.
The devil wants US to carry the separation (lie) for his evil (fear)kingdom.
But we all have be reconciled " restored) to the HEAD of Jesus.
shall we keep it a secret as not to offend the young one's or is it time to preach it from the roof tops???????????????????? :
BEHOLD THE LAMB WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF "THE WORLD" (John 1:29)
2 Corintians 5:18-19
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation
Now do we Twist the Truth like the Devil or do we walk the Straight Path of Jesus and get crucified by the followers for telling it as it is ???? |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Here you write: So many people talk about the Holy Spirit convicting them each time they sin. I would like to impose that the Holy Spirits ministry is a positive one. He's not constantly condemning us. That's your own conscious. The Holy Spirit is the comforter, the teacher, our helper, our friend. Would you be friends with someone who was constantly putting you down? Always pointing out your faults? I don't think so. The Holy Spirit just wants to continuously point you to the fact that you are not trusting in Jesus. He's the one that is building you up, not tearing you down. The Holy Ghost does convict of of our sins, else why would Paul write to the Corinthians about the man that was having fornication. 1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
He also wrote to them: 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner If God does not see sin, then why would Paul write this, he even says, to not have anything to do with such a one, If the Lord does not sin, then why would Paul write:
1Co 5:12 For it is no business of mine to be judging those who are outside; but it is yours to be judging those who are among you;
If we think we can do as we please, we are lawless, chaotic, undisciplined. It would be like living in the US, where there is no law. We need to produce good works, Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. We are to abstain from every form of evil 1Th 5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;
1Th 5:22 abstain from every form of evil. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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arggg. more grammar mistakes, sorry If God does not see sin, then why would Paul write this, he even says, to not have anything to do with such a one, If the Lord does not SEE sin, then why would Paul write:
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| April 12, 2008 |
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It is finished!
Wow....I actually think I'm through! Imagine that.
Gotta breath for a few, but I'll be back!
SEE ADDITION NO. 2 |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Michael,
There is a spiritual truth I believe you are trying to communicate. It is how God sees us. He sees us as righteous. He sees the blood of Jesus that covers us. We have been clothed in righteousness. This is what we call "justification." God declares us righteous, based upon the work of the cross. However, I think where the confusion is, is the concept of "santification." This is the process of becoming holy. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. God is working in us and through us to do His good will. For those He foreknew, those He also predestined them to become conformed to the image of His Son. So we are Holy and we are becoming Holy at the same time. Correct me if I am not understanding fully what you are saying, but I do think that this is typical dilemma. From who's perspective are you looking from? If it is God then we are righteous, If it is man's perspective then we say as Paul, "In my flesh there dwells no good thing." Therefore, we crucify our flesh so that the life of Christ may become alive in us. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Brother Todd:
Thanks for tuning in. That's a good point you make about "working out our salvation with fear and trembling". I did a quick search on the phrase "work out". In the Greek it is the verb KATERGAZOMAI. One definition I find on this means "to carry out the goal, to carry to it's ultimate conclusion" in other words. Christ-likeness!
As to the last part of your comment, I would have to say that I am coming from what I see as God's perspective. I do not care what man thinks of me. I am more concerned about what God thinks. Paul talked seriously about his flesh in chapter 7, but then he goes on to talk about life in the spirit in chapter 8. In his flesh he was speaking about his life without the power of the spirit operating in him.
I believe that we are to crucifying the flesh, yes. That's where renewing our minds to the Word comes in to play. The love of God makes us to become holy, not becoming holy causes God to love us.
Thanks for the comment!
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Kingdomwithin:
In your fiest comment you said "If the SIN of unbelief (according to your above statement) is what the so called SIN is.
First of all, I didn't say that, Jesus did.
Then you said "Again the first SIN, did not demand that you cash the check, before the debt was applied to your name and account. Nor does the above verses state that this SIN is removed by your choice. Just stating the Facts."
I am a little bit confused by what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that God does not demand for us to cash the check of forgiveness? If that's your question, then of course not. We have a free will to accept that payment or refuse it. Secondly, Sin is removed by believing in Jesus. He said it himself. It the worlds sin is not believing, then freedom from that sin would = believing.
Did I understand you correctly? |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Brother Todd:
You also said in your first comment "He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might have the righteousness of God in Him"
This is exactly my point! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Hi Dave:
Thanks for dropping by!
You said "I sort of feel like we walked around and ended up back at the beginning. Kind of dizzy, but then I struggle with that in Romans seven also. I think we are dead to the law but frre to live in Christ."
There is nothing new under the sun, right! I struggled with Romans 7 for a long time too. But Romans 8 sheds a lot of light on that topic. Verses 24 & 25 in chapter 7 helped me too. Here they are from the NLT
Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord.
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Gary:
You bring up many good points. I can't address all of them in one comment. But one of the things you said in your first comment was: "If we are not to live a holy life, then we need to get ride of the scriptures in the New Testament that says we are. Even Christ told those He healed, go and sin no more. "
Keep in mind that the ones Christ was speaking to were not born again believers. They had not been filled with the Holy Spirit. Yes, he pointed out that there actions were sin, but his love and his healing were still ministered.
I'll end up saying this a lot but as previously stated, I am not a sin advocate. All I am saying that sin does seprate God from us!
I |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Thanks for your kind words Latonya, Sharon, Cherly from Ga and Deb!
I appreciate you all! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Hi Paul:
You said" "Michael, Are you saying that you believe.............That God is not concerned if a Christian continues to sin? That the lifestyle (behavior) of a Christian is irrelevant or of no consequence?"
I didn't say God is not concerned, nor do I believe that Paul. I am just saying that God does not pull away from us each time we sin. I do believe that we do not go to hell for our sins. I believe that all sins, even of the lost, have been forgiven. Are all lost people going to heaven? Of course not. They have to receive, believe in their hearts, have a heart transformation, of what Jesus did for them. The sin of the world is not believing in Jesus.
There will be a lot of people going to hell with their sins forgiven!
There are always consequences with sin. Sin is trouble. Sin causes problem. I myself still have a plethora of left over consequences from all the years I was lost. God is helping me make restitution of those, but yes, definitely consequences. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Whew!
That's all them comments I have time to address right now. I have ten thumbs if you know what I mean and I need to hitch-hike my way, so-to-speak to the restaurant....
God loves us! That's Good News! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| We are on the same page. I have a few blogs myself you may be interested in reading. "Killing the Old Man" and "Pleading the Blood part one and two." See if we are saying the same thing. Post your comments..I will be looking for them. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| Thanks Todd....I'll check them out..... |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Gary:
You said" I am forgiven of my sins, IF I repent.But if I continue in sin and don't turn from them, I develop a seared conscience. Unworthy of the kingdom of God. 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
This passage doesn't even say anything about our sins, or not repenting of them,unless of course you are talking about the sin of departing from the faith. It doesn't say that not repenting causes you to develop a seared conscious. It says" giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." That's serious business.
The rest of that passage says:
forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
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| April 12, 2008 |
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And then you said" According to what you write, we can take the rest of the New Testament that teaches that we are to be Holy, to be sanctified, so that we can continue to live carnal lives?"
Man, you missed the entire point of my message. What I am trying to say is that we are to stop living carnal lives and start living according to the spirit! Our spirit is the born again part of us. I am trying to say that if we are walking according to the spirit, and not carnally, then we have no sin, and the sin that we do have is in the flesh, outside of the God realm!
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Then "The Holy Ghost does convict of of our sins"
Show me in scripture, outside of John 16:9, which I already discussed, where the Holy Ghost convicts us of our sins.
Not being argumentative, but I don't see it. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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I stand corrected, sorry, was quoting from lessons taught, on Timothy, went and re-re-re-re-read the scripture, and it does not say seared from sin, but rather from speaking lies in hypocricity. But I am still convinced that we are to live sinful lives, because we are to be holy, just as God is holy. I am reading your replies also, so I can try to do this in one rely, trying to keep the email notices down, lol Ok, you replied to Michael: This is the process of becoming holy. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. God is working in us and through us to do His good will. For those He foreknew, those He also predestined them to become conformed to the image of His Son. So we are Holy and we are becoming Holy at the same time. True, it is a process, not done over night, but I believe we are to strive for His perfection. To Brother Todd: The love of God makes us to become holy, not becoming holy causes God to love us. Correct, I can not be holy, but I am not to live in sin, I am to crucify the flesh, daily! To Dave you wrote: Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. I agree, He is the one that frees us of sin. I know it is not an overnight accomplishment, but a continuing of striving to be like Him, will I ever be without sin? Of course not, not until this flesh is dead, and I stand before Him, but I am to strive for His perfection, not to continue doing what I want. You said to me: Keep in mind that the ones Christ was speaking to were not born again believers. So, when we as Christians, heal the sick, raise the dead, ect, We tell them to go and sin no more, but once you are born again, it is ok to sin again? As I was reading, I see your message now, that the sins of the world was accomplished at the cross, I do believe this, but we are not to continue sinning, we need to constantly strive to be like Him. Will my sins send me to hell? If I continue in sin, my heart becomes hardened, and am not able to listen to Him, drawing further away from Him, until I come to a place that I no longer care, and will eventually turn my back on Him completely, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the one sin that is not forgivable.Matt. 12:31 Now as to fruit. If I continue to live in sin, I will be producing bad fruit, and will thus be cut off from the vine and cast out to the fire and gnashing of teeth. The passage written to the church Laodiceans in Revelations are is written to believers, that have turned their back on the Lord, and have become lukewarm, caring for the world more than the Lord, and would not accept that they were poor and wretched. He tells them to buy gold from Him, tried in fire, clothes to cover their nakedness, and salve to heal their blind eyes. He tells them to repent, because those that He loves, He rebukes, and punishes, or else He will vomit them out of His mouth. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Hi again Gary......good comments indeed.....some I agree with..some I don't....let me try to answer to the best of my ability.
But I am still convinced that we are to live sinful lives, because we are to be holy, just as God is holy.
I assume you meant to say "we are NOT to live sinful lives". In that understanding, where in my writing do you see me say that we are to live sinful lives? I never said that. I speak against sin several times, frequently. Sin is horrible. I recognize that. We are to be holy, and in our spirit,we have already been made holy. That's why I emphasize several times that an understanding of spirit, soul, and body are crucial.
So, when we as Christians, heal the sick, raise the dead, ect, We tell them to go and sin no more, but once you are born again, it is ok to sin again?
That is an excellent point. And my initial response is about they were not born again is not sitting well with my conscious either. I think what I mean was that at that point they had not redeemed, or filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit. But your argument here is a good one. I'll chew on that one a while.
we need to constantly strive to be like Him.
Yes. Agreed. By renewing our minds to what has already happened in our spirit.
Will my sins send me to hell? If I continue in sin, my heart becomes hardened, and am not able to listen to Him, drawing further away from Him, until I come to a place that I no longer care, and will eventually turn my back on Him completely, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the one sin that is not forgivable.Matt. 12:31
You added a lot here besides committing a sin, including coming to a place where you no longer care. The bible refers to this a reprobate mind. Hebrews 6:1-6 speaks powerfully about this. Now as to fruit. If I continue to live in sin, I will be producing bad fruit, and will thus be cut off from the vine and cast out to the fire and gnashing of teeth.
Here again, you missed my point. I didn't title my blog "Let's all continue to live in Sin" I don;t believe committing a sin and living in sin are the same thing. Living in sin is blatantly not caring, or being reprobate. Will that produce bad fruit? Absolutely
And lastly...
The passage written to the church Laodiceans in Revelations are is written to believers, that have turned their back on the Lord,
I won't even go any further than the last line I pasted above. Those that have turned their back on the Lord? My blog is about growing closer to the Lord, not turning my back against him.
I get where you are coming from Gary. It's almost too good to be true news. And I completely admit that I do not have all the answers. Shoot, I do not even know all the questions. But a majority of my blog is scripture. In between is listed the way I interpret those scriptures. I didn't make this up. It's Word. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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See SIDEBAR ADDDED 04/12/08 |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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you asked: where in my writing do you see me say that we are to live sinful lives? It's not what you said, but comes across that way, Our sins are no longer an issue with God!. We are in general agreement, so going back to my original comment: I have an issue with the way the grace message is taught. Not with grace, but the way it comes across. It is the way the message is presented that I have a problem with. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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I know Gary....the title and a couple of my statements may seem to come across as that. But it's hard to meditate on verses like 2 Corinthians 5:19 and not come to that conclusion though. This blog didn't just come on a whim. I have read, read, and re-read that verse for a few years now. I have meditated on that hundreds of times. Enough so it sent me on a search. I have prayed, cross referenced, listened to other messages and even doubted.
Maybe as better title should have been Eternally Redeemed, or Spirit, soul & body?
From a spiritual perspective, everything I say is true. And we are to be spiritually minded. To think in the spirit and to walk in the spirit, and most importantly, operate in the spirit. It's going to be real hard to operate in God's power without this spiritual understanding.
It's like "we are more than conquerers" Well, not aside from the spirit we aren't.
I honestly believe that we do not go to hell for our individual sins. If that were so, then we would have to break those down into levels, or degrees of sin. Big sin, little sin. Who draws that line?
Unbelievers will be sent to hell for not accepting Jesus as the Son of God. I don't believe God is going to deal with their individual sins. If they never accepted Him, then that's the end of that story.
I knew that it was not going to be easy presenting this message. It's not a new message. It's just rare. I am certain that many will avoid just because of my opening line. It's not a message that is preached to fit. It's preached to hit.
I appreciate you my friend. I was expecting, and even hoping for others point of view. It's healthy!
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| April 12, 2008 |
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ok, here we go: lol 4/12/08 He does not look unto the carnal body, or even our carnal minds. He does not look at the physical, but He does look at the heart! (mind) His love will cause you to live holy, not the other way around. AMEN!! If you feel like you loose your salvation every time you sin No, it is the continuation of the sin, constantly, no turning from (repentance) not sorry for, Here is my thoughts as to why I have a problem with the way the Grace message is taught. I have 4 cousins that went up to shake the preachers hand, at alter call, they became Christians, but were never taught that if you don't repent, turn from the sins, to be truly sorry you have done the things in their lives. All four of these cousins, are now in the world, not living for Christ, 2 have totally rejected His saving grace, the other two, 1 has been living with man after man, after man, not married, but living with, the other one, is so far gone, that to even mention Christ, she becomes hateful, she was molested by one of the "upstanding" people in the church. They were so mired in sin, and were not taught that His grace has forgiven them, but to continue in their sins would lead them back to the dark void. I want my brothers and sisters to be able to stand the ultimate test, to be able to say, yes, I am fully committed, and even if you kill me now, I know where I will go. Today, we have so many sitting in the nose holding pews, not living for Christ, going to church to be seen, country clubs if you will. Thinking that just because they went up and shook the pastors hand, and said I believe, without a heart change, that are on a one way ticket to hell, because Christ will say, get away, I don't know you! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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I appreciate you my friend. I was expecting, and even hoping for others point of view. It's healthy! Please forgive me, sorry for taking over your blog...... |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| I mean that in Love, I just read over what I just wrote, and wanted to make sure you know I did not mean that in a rude or condescending way.. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Now you're talking a whole new game.
First of all my message here is really addressed to those who are truly born again. The way I see it is that MyChurch is a body of believers. Maybe not all believe the same thing, but for the most part we are mature, or at least the ones I expect to read my message are.
The process of becoming a true born again believer is where I may differ from others. I believe that repentance has to be a part of that born again experience. Shaking a pastors hand and repeating a prayer, in my opinion, does not make one a born again believer.
I personally do not try to get people to repeat a prayer after me. Only when they get to the "What shall I do to be saved" stage. In other words, they have become convinced as a result of hearing the word. That faith has been imparted supernaturally into them as a result. Not being forced to, but understanding that they are committing to making or allowing Jesus to be Lord. Lord over everything. Lordmover every aspect of their life. Make disciples is what we were commanded, not converts.
Like I said, this is a whole new animal and I can understand completely where you are coming from. Not only based upon your explanation, but from my own observations and experiences.
I can see this opening up a whole new exchange and while I am certainly not opposed to that Gary, I will say that I am beat my brother. I have to pack to leave for a 10:00 AM trip.
We can definitely discuss this later or perhaps even by email if you desire. Sounds like the making of a great blog topic to me. Go for it my friend!
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| April 12, 2008 |
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| I hope and pray for a safe trip, may the Lord bless you coming and going, go in peace, and get rest.... In HIS name, good night! |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Those are the ones I feel the Lord has called me too, the ones that "think" they are saved, because of a hand shake. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Wow, I'm really enjoying this dialogue! What love and respect! Great points by all, delivered with passion and consideration! A victory for MyChurch, and a victory for our unity in Jesus!
(Sorry Michael, getting a little carried away perhaps.... but may I commend you on a well hosted discussion! It did my heart good tonight!) ~mike |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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Amen, Mike n Laura, Michael is a good orator, it is just a difference in callings, it seems, he seems to be called to re-affirm and solidify the Born Again Christian, whereas, I am called to those that are in the church, but have not had a heart change, to KNOW the Lord. Maybe that is the difference in languages throughout the different letters in the New Testament, speaking to those that are IN, and also spanking those that think they are IN. |
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| April 12, 2008 |
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The MOMENT we HAVE TOO live right, is the MOMENT we HAVE TOO Live completely Right or we will be guilty of ALL.
LAW OR GRACE....that's a choice for each of us. I choose GRACE by FREE GIFT , JESUS in my place (NOT A VAIN GIFT) If you have to be HOLY by working obedience to the LAW of thou shall not then you also have to be HOLY completely by working every Act and Thought by that path of service. That's the choice your life will express. Can't have it both ways. Be Good completely or you are guilty of every sinful act there is. Be Holy by Grace and work your flesh out the best you can, yet still maintain your HOLY image in God's eyes.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Peace
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| April 13, 2008 |
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Thanks Mike for the great compliment. If I have hosted this blog even well enough to deserve a compliment it's only because of the pointers I stole from you!
Thank you as well Gary. I have enjoyed talking with you.
And then you said: "Maybe that is the difference in languages throughout the different letters in the New Testament, speaking to those that are IN, and also spanking those that think they are IN. "
Wow, what a profound statement that is!
I think the way 2 Peter begins is an example of that statement:
"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us "
I'll be on the road most of the day. I'm going to be in Lexington for a couple days. Take care bud! |
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| April 14, 2008 |
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The sincere efforts though not true and works are castaway not the man,according to Paul the Apostle.
Paul never Preached on Hell or implied it.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. |
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| April 14, 2008 |
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Paul:
That is indeed a very eye opening verse. One possible explanation would be that if we continue to walk only after the flesh, not being led by the spirit, that our carnal desires would constantly be pulling us away from the power of God. In other words, literally cutting our own selves off from Him. Not Him pulling away from us. Because of being led or dominated entirely by the flesh, we would eventually become hardened in our hearts and this could lead to becoming reprobate in our minds.
Whatever we focus on, our hearts become softened to and whatever we ignore, our hearts become hardened to.
Again, one of the main emphasis of my blog is to be led, or softened to life in the spirit.
That's definitely a powerful verse Paul. Will ponder on that often.
Interesting perspective Kingomwithin.
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| April 30, 2008 |
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Laugh Lara, I knew you would eventually make it by here. Did you actually read this message in it's entirety or did you just realize the topic and comment accordingly?
It's a great message. It's Word.
I know your standpoint, and like we have talked about, I would never try to persuade you to see things my way. That's not my job!
I love you Lara! |
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| May 01, 2008 |
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Michael,
I'm joining this discussion a little late so here goes. You know that I am as passionate about my salvation as you are.
Your theology and mine are almost identical. I, however, take the tack that says, "If I'm free from sin and I live by the Spirit (i.e. born of God) I cannot sin." 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We can indeed walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. As you pointed out: 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The reason this is so hard for most people to swallow is because they do not know the difference between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh. Most people have been taught that if you are "in the flesh" that means you have given yourself over to sin. And while that's how preachers and teachers use the term "in the flesh", that's not how it's used in the bible. The bible says that walking after the flesh will always lead to the works of the flesh but you can worship God in the flesh all day long. Most churches only know this method!
Michael, you and I are "in the body" but we do not walk after the flesh. We have learned the difference. We choose to walk in the Spirit so that we do NOT do those things in the body that destroy our lives. Without the ability to walk in the Spirit all you and I have is the flesh. And as we have learned by personal experience, the flesh is the road to ruin. This is NOT the case with most church going Christians. Most people have good enough lives without walking in the Spirit. The church has ALWAYS been made up of those who worship God in the flesh and those who worship God in the Spirit. They are both in the body (i.e. in their natural earth suits) but one group lives on a different plain - out of necessity.
You and I could not decide to get under law and live in the flesh like most good Christians. Why? Because the sins we commit destroy people's lives - most notably our own. When people who are "not that bad" live in the flesh, they might feel guilty and be under a certain level of condemnation but it's not that big a deal in the final analysis - neighborhoods will not be ruined.
I hesitate to go here but it illustrates my point. Let's take the two apostles Paul and James. Before he was saved, Paul was a religious nut whose life was ruined by the hypocrisy of religion. He consented to the murder of God's people. Although he knew he was forgiven, he NEVER lost sight of this sin. Paul considered himself righteous by faith apart from works.
James was Jesus' brother (after the flesh). He rose to power as the "chiefest apostle" of Jerusalem not because he was all that smart but he was renown for his piety. In fact, in early Christian writings, he is often referred to as "James the Just". James was never a notorious sinner to the point that it was ruining his life. James considered himself righteous by faith in addition to his works. 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
These two theologies are diametrically opposed to one another and the church has tried for centuries to reconcile them into one message. It is not possible. Either we are justified by "faith only" or we are not.
Now look at Gary's position. He cannot for the life of himself grasp what you're saying. To him (and the millions like him) when exposed to the grace message, it sounds like license to sin. I don't know much about Lara but she seems to hear you say, "once saved, always saved".
These theologies (Grace and Works) are like oil and water. They cannot be mixed and they will never be reconciled.
Pauldelucia's reference to 1 Cor. 9 is invalid. The apostle Paul is NOT talking about being castaway by God. We have promises that say Jesus "will in no wise cast out" those the Father has given Him (see John 6:37). 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Paul wanted to become all things to all men so that he would attain his reward. What was his reward? To preach the gospel free of charge.
What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it. (1 Cor. 9:18 NIV)
Paul's labor is still paying dividends to his account almost 2000 years later. His station in eternity will probably be higher than mine. His reward will be greater than most people's but his salvation is without question. He did not want to be disqualified for the prize by the prize (that is, his prospective converts). 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. God does not cast people away... but people do. The apostle Paul was talking about establishing rapport with the lost - not how to keep from being castaway by God. Or as he said in his second epistle to the Corinthians:
We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. (2 Cor. 6:3 NIV)
More later,
Rob |
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| May 01, 2008 |
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Michael,
If anyone asks you, "Do you sin?" Here's how you answer:
"I'm a bad one to ask that question because I'm not under law. The bible says that by the law comes the knowledge of sin. Logically, if I knew whether I was sinning, I would of necessity be under law."
A preacher recently told me that as he "grew in Christ", he became more and more aware of sins that he didn't even consider sin in times past. I told him, "You're not growing in Christ, you're under law". Then I quoted Romans 3:20 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. The bible doesn't say, "by growing in Christ is the knowledge of sin" but "by the law".
Let me dispense with 1 John 1:8 while I'm here: 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Obviously, John is not telling his readers that they should live their lives with an expectation to sin all the time. So what might he be saying? Did John ever use language like that before? 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. Jesus was being criticized for healing the man born blind on the Sabbath. Because they said they could see, their sin remained. They claimed to "have no sin". 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 15:23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Here, John quotes Jesus as saying that they might not have had sin except for one little problem - they heard his voice and saw the works Jesus did and despised Him for it. In both cases Jesus was speaking in regard to the religious establishment and not the garden variety sinner - which He loves.
So when we go back to 1 John 1:8, John is not quoting Jesus but he is speaking to an attitude which grows up in any "religious environment". It has something to do with the whole "Judge not lest ye be judged" paradigm. As soon as we judge someone or something, we close ourselves of from any other possibility. This serves a useful purpose because without it, we would never make a decision. (The word "decision" comes from the same root word as the word "incision" which means to cut. Therefore, a decision is to "cut off from another possibility".)
When the religious establishment judged that Jesus was sinning by healing a man on the Sabbath day, He said they themselves were blind - religiously.
When people heard the words and saw the works Jesus did and decided He was evil, this is the same as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", which, as you may recall, attributed the casting out of devils to the power of Beelzebub. (See Mark 3:22-30)
So, then, what does the expression "if we say we have no sin" mean?
Well, notice: it does not say "if we say we do not sin"; it says "have no sin". Is there a difference?
Well, I can have sin - a sin nature - but I don't have to sin. This was Paul's theology. 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Paul seemed to think that as long as you "walk in the Spirit" you could live sin free. The logic makes perfect sense (see verse 17 above).
The apostle John shared that theology but instead of using the term "walk in the Spirit", John used the expression "born of God": 3:9 Whosoever is born of Goddoth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. And again: 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of Godsinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. John very much believed in the possibility of living a sin free life - as long as you stayed "born of God".
Whether you like "born of God" or "walk in the Spirit" the message is the same: Because we have sin we MUST connect with God otherwise sin will destroy us. As long as we stay connected, we cannot sin (i.e. we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh).
In conclusion: None of this works unless you believe it. If you cannot bring yourself to believe this message, you will characterize it as "once saved, always saved" or "pride" or even "license to sin" (believe it or not).
That's all I have to say about that,
Rob |
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