|
|
| |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
| Wages and gifts (what are we REALLY earning?) |
|
| |
Recently I was pondering wages and gifts...
6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Wages are earned, whereas gifts are freely given. According to God’s word, death is a wage, and is therefore earned. Life is a gift, and is therefore freely given. Interesting, isn’t it? Nobody wants death (do they?), yet this actually has to be earned! Naturally everyone treasures life, and yet this is freely given! Does that seem backward to anyone else?
Usually we think of good things as rewards for hard work, and bad things as consequences for no work, or punishment for poor work. But it seems God doesn’t always operate that way. In fact, in his role as the Father, he is the Giver far more than he is an Employer or Taskmaster. It seems he wants so badly to give, that when we absolutely insist on earning instead of receiving, he continues to give, by giving us over to the desires of our evil hearts, allowing us to earn our own consequences!
Life, both the eternal life to come and the full life now, simply needs to be accepted, though not on our terms. THAT is the problem! So many of us would rather work for something we can call our own (death) than accept something freely given to us on someone else’s (God’s) terms. Why???
Since the gifts of God are not accepted on our terms, I’ve learned that surrender is necessary to receiving them. Often it goes against what seems natural, but I’ve also found that his gifts are far greater than anything I could earn by living this life according to my terms.
The exhortation? Forget about earning what you think you’ll deserve, spiritually speaking. It may turn out to be nothing more than death. Instead, seek God, find out what his terms are, and then simply receive. His gifts will exceed your wildest imagination, possibly sooner than you think!
|
|
| To leave a comment or start your own blog: |
 |
or |
 |
Already a member? Login |
|
|
|
|
Wow. I never caught that.
His ways are so far above our way of thinking. |
|
|
Awesome....
Now there's one of the Kingdom opposites that never before occurred to me...Gotta love it! |
|
|
Two verses came to me as I read this. Of course the comment abouve caught it as well. Our ways are not His ways, our thoughts are not his thoughts. The other is For by grace have you been saved through faith and not that of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast. It's so crazy isn't it..to find our life we have to loose it. Unless a seed falls to the ground and die it won't experience life. Life is natural and we are created to love and serve God but death is something we choose because of our own rebelliousness.
Great concept! |
|
|
Megan |
 |
April 13, 2008 at 6:12am |
|
Awesome.. You sure can make me think with your blogs. *wink* |
|
|
Bro Todd, love your comments, almost every word from scripture. Awesome!
Megan....thanks! Scripture is awesome, isn't it?? 
Thanks Michael, Ruth! For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom!
|
|
|
Elena |
|
April 13, 2008 at 7:14am |
|
Awesome Blog!!!
4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day. 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory; 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
|
|
|
MT4God |
|
April 13, 2008 at 11:07am |
|
| Really makes you think about life and death. Do you want to earn death or receive life? I choose life! Thank you God for your Son and giving life to me. |
|
|
I have come to the conclusion if I ever completely grasp God's mind then I am in his presence and even then will I? |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 13, 2008 at 12:44pm |
|
Awesome blog, Mike!
The first definition of the Greek word for "glory" (doxa) is "the view and opinion of God". When we start out in this thing, we are of an opinion. Often that opinion is not in agreement with the view and opinion of God.
Working for what God has freely given is a completely human characteristic. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were seduced into sin by the suggestion that perhaps they could be more like God if they ate the fruit. They were created in God's image and likeness yet they wanted to be like God. Satan can sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo.
But we work for what God freely gives us because we fundamentally do not trust His promises. "It can't be that easy", we rationalize. So we set out to dig our own cisterns. 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. Paul explained that "righteousness" or "justification" is the free gift of God. In the Old Testament, God imputed righteousness to Abraham and He imputes it to us the same way - by faith. 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. Paul says the same thing you wrote in your blog: we cannot earn justification by our works. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
In other words if righteousness (justification) were of works then that would mean God owed it to us. Paul's whole theology hung on this single truth but not all the apostles shared that same doctrine.
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Umm... No. Abraham was called righteous in Genesis 15. He didn't offer his son Isaac on the altar until Genesis 22. In fact, God gives Abraham the free gift of righteous long before Isaac was even born. 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
No, James, I don't see how a man is justified by works. Your broken cistern didn't hold water in the first century and it doesn't hold any water today either.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob |
|
|
Great post, Mike! I think you're talking about "Amazing Grace" ... |
|
|
Hello June! I haven't had the pleasure of hearing from you in some time, and the pleasure is mine! (Also thank you for the nice comment!)
Shirley, thank you too, and nice to hear from you!
Rob, that's a pretty awesome comment, one of those comments I think actually surpasses the original blog in communicating the intended truths -- THANKS! ps...You may disagree, but I don't think James intended to blatantly contradict Paul's teachings. I'll study more though before fully embracing this view though. God bless!
Cheryl, I couldn't agree more.... now we only see in part, but when we are ushed into God's presence we will see in full. Can't wait!
MT4God - encouraged to hear of your choice - thanks for posting!!
Elena, great scripture! |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 13, 2008 at 7:38pm |
|
Mike,
Many historians think that the epistle of James was one of the earliest Christian writings. If this is true, then it is not James who is contradicting Paul but Paul contradicting James.
Remember that Paul disappeared for 14-years after his conversion (see Gal. 2:1). He had lots of time to spend with Jesus pondering what had happened to him on the road to Damascus.
Rob |
|
|
| Thanks Rob. I've read James quite a few times, but admittedly haven't studied the book in its historical context. The info is appreciated! |
|
|
| Wow!! I have never looked at it this way before! I am AMAZED by this. It gives me a whole NEW way to witness. Thank you. |
|
|
Deb |
|
April 14, 2008 at 6:05am |
|
| Great blog Mike! A concept that is so simple, and yet so many choose to earn their way to hell rather than accept the free gift of eternal life. Something definitely wrong with that way of thinking! |
|
|
Awesome post mike...gotme reading..;) then saw Rob posted all i looked up. Love the scripture!!
My pastor talked bout this yesterday , how we look for praise in our work instead of being humble and serving the Lord, accepting the gifts He give us so freely.
God Bless |
|
|
| good job. thank you for another eye opener. |
|
|
Ed |
|
April 15, 2008 at 7:40am |
|
It's really neat how we can "flesh out" the teachings from the Bible. I mean, here we are in this forum being encouraged and spiritually educated from peers who have been through it all and are willing to share their experiences and thoughts about what it means to be a Christian. PTL!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Mike! |
|
|
| hmmmmmmmmmmm, Choose life !! yeah, that's it! |
|
|
| re-read this, re-read the comments.... powerful learning happening here. powerful! thanks again. |
|
|
| Well I never looked at it that way... |
|
|
Wow Tammy, thanks! Ain't it great when we can learn from each other and glorify the Lord in the process? :-)
Thanks Dave....neither had I, until just a few days ago!
Paul, it's awesome to be among the living!!!
Ed, love your comment! Yes, it is neat. I've learned a lot as well from peers since coming to MyChurch. Very edifying, spiritually!
Thanks Robin! Nice to meet you!
Thanks Donna, and Deb. You girls are so Godly, I treasure anything you have to say! |
|
|
Hey Mike, that was smthng i NEVER noticed ! "that when we absolutely insist on earning instead of receiving, he continues to give, by giving us over to the desires of our evil hearts, allowing us to earn our own consequences!" My doubt is, How do i know if the statement above is actually happening in my life? What if i am not aware of it?? help? |
|
|
Hey DK!
I'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about that - if you're conscientious about following Jesus. When I wrote the line you questioned, I had in mind folks who completely don't get the grace thing, folks who believe good people get to heaven, rather than believers.
Rather than cracking the earners over the head with the Bible, I would rather tell them about the beauty of receiving what is freely given.....if this doesn't make you fall in love with the Savior, if this doesn't make you want to empty yourself of yourself right on the spot and follow Jesus wherever he leads, ......hmm, you can fill in the rest!
Take it easy buddy! |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 17, 2008 at 7:49pm |
|
Mike and Dark,
When I was a member of the church of Christ, I would never have said that I was trying to earn my salvation but I was. I know people who are still members of that denomination who would tell you that they are saved by grace through faith - and as long as they do what they're supposed to do, they'll go to heaven.
You are right to be concerned about this DK, but don't get all neurotic about it either. "Works righteousness" is insidious but we can be sure we're not falling into it by keeping our eyes on Jesus.
When you read the bible, look for the promises - any and all promises. Believing that the promises of God are yours is the only thing that counts as righteousness. Abraham believed God's promise and God called him righteous. The righteous shall live by such faith.
Jesus promised, "If you remain in me and my word remains in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be given you." (John 15:7). If you can believe that one, you are righteous. I know plenty of church folk who will argue with that promise. They're not arguing with me, they're arguing with God.
If you believe God answers prayers three ways, "Yes", "No", and "Wait", you are by definition unrighteous. For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ (2 Cor. 1:20). If you believe that, to you, all of God's promises are "Yes" then you're righteous.
If your circumstance says one thing but the bible says another, which one is correct? If, like me, you suffer from acid reflux but the bible says that "by His stripes you have been healed" (1 Pet 2:24), is God lying or have you just not yet connected with the reality of God's promise?
God is real and His word is true. If you are not walking in that reality just yet, that's okay. Just don't stop believing. If God says that healing is mine then I want it! I believe it! If my reality is not God's reality yet, that's okay. We are righteous because we accept God's promises at face value not because we're walking it out just yet.
Abraham was righteous YEARS before the promise of God was a physical reality in his life. We are righteous too if we believe God's promises but that doesn't mean those promises have physically manifested yet. Faith AND righteousness always precede physical reality. The physical realm is a lagging indicator.
We walk by faith and not by sight. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Rob |
|
|
| Andrey, no need to fear, if you are willing to seek God on his terms and receive what he offers, rather than earn your own righteousness - i.e. trust in Jesus! (I have a feeling you're fine my friend - no worries) |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 19, 2008 at 12:09pm |
|
Mike,
I think people are genuinely asking, "How can I be certain?"
Telling folks not to worry about it is good advice but there's a bunch of Messianic Christians on this board who don't realized that they are indeed worried about it. In Psychology, they call it, "Denial". 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? I honestly believe that, at Judgment Day, people will be shocked to learn that Jesus never knew them. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mike, you may be passing up a teaching opportunity here.
Messianics are seeking God on what they believe to be His terms. The Pharisees believed they were seeking God on His terms. The Pope probably believes he's seeking God on God's terms. Religion is full of people who are seeking God on what they believe to be His terms. But are they? Should they be at all concerned? Should I be concerned for myself?
Please understand, I'm not advocating driving ourselves crazy with worry over this matter but I do see evidence indicating that the bible considers this to be an important issue.
Nobody would argue with the statement, "seek God on His terms", but what does that mean? This is what your readers are asking.
Messianics may read that and assume you're talking about keeping the Law (Torah). Catholics may read that and assume that you're talking about praying the Rosary. Church of Christ people may read that and assume you're talking about making sure you take the Lord's Supper on the first day of the week. Indeed, none of them will read that and recognize that their religions are actually rejecting God's terms in favor of their own. In other words, there is no repentance.
Our conversation should be seasoned with salt. Peter talked about teachers who were "clouds without rain".
You are painted into a corner on this one, Mike. I didn't do it; you got yourself into this. People are demanding an answer. "Don't worry about it" isn't good enough. I'm challenging you to answer the question but I don't think you will. You HAVE to avoid answering the question because if you do, you will have aligned yourself with a specific brand of theology that would go against your perceived persona. You CANNOT answer the question because you're trapped by what you have said in previous blogs; specifically - "Denominations are Good".
You cannot have it both ways, my brother. Jesus said, "Blessed is he whosoever shall not be offended in me." Being dogmatic about the teachings of Jesus is nothing to be ashamed of.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob |
|
|
| Thanks for your comment Rob....I am committed to watching the Marx Bros tonight w/my kids, perhaps after that I'll try to compose a response. I appreciate your concern! |
|
|
Thank you for another beautifully written 'lesson' of encouragement through understanding.
I love the word Surrender... it means so much to me since He's taught me how to trust completely without questioning Him. God always gives me understanding but oftentimes not until AFTER I've obeyed an instruction (without calling it a suggestion!). :-)
Death can be a gift: a death to flesh or self. God's terms... the fight between two wills, ours and His. Ultimately His is always the highest road... even if it seems to cause us to walk through the valley of the shadow of death. HE KNOWS BEST.
Be blessed tonight and always... and thanks again for your wisdom and encouragement. You are right on, brother Mike!
Love to you and your beautiful family... during this holy Passover week. May He reveal to you great and mighty secrets in His Word...
Melanie
|
|
|
Rob |
|
April 20, 2008 at 8:10pm |
|
Mike,
You do know I'm just busting your chops, don't you?
You know I am in full agreement with your initial blog, right?
But I do want to hear some good teaching to people who are genuinely reaching out for ministry. I know you have it in you.
Rob |
|
|
lol... Rob my friend, bust away! :-)
My "perceived persona"... lol .. I simply try to maintain the slightly "ecumenical" flavor of the Nicene Creed which this site embraces. I'm not smart enough to rule Catholics out of the kingdom, or the Pentacostals, or the Presbyterians, or the....etc. That isn't to say I don't adhere to a certain "flavor" of Christianity myself. But all questions will be answered in due time. For now, the essentials are easy enough to hold to: That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with the heart that you believe and are justified and it is with the moutht hat you confess and are saved. (!!!!) Rom 10:9-10
"Painted in a corner" lol ... Dude, you make me laugh. I love ya bro! |
|
|
Chris |
|
April 21, 2008 at 7:44am |
|
This is a wonderful blog. I like to be taught new ways of looking at the Word.
I just heard a christian comediene talk about his response to a person who says that they don't understand why God lets poverty, hunger and that stuff happen. His response was that if we, in our finite mind, could understand God's mind, then He wouldn't be God.
I'm confronted regularly with things that God does which doesn't make sense to my human mind. And not just because of what society has taught, but what I take to be "logical" progressions. My most recent realization is that safety and comfort isn't derived from becoming saved, working for God in community and church, marrying the girl God has sent me, raising God fearing children, and retiring with suffient means till God calls me home. Comfort and safety is obtained by living every day on the edge with God directing each footstep. For where else can we be safe than in the arms of God.
That makes about as much sense to me as giving so I can receive, blessing so I'll be blessed, leading by serving others, and loosing my life for His sake and thus finding it. Good thing He's God an I'm not - huh. |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 22, 2008 at 11:16am |
|
In both of the churches I grew up in (Catholic and the Church of Christ) they worked to rid themselves of their sins. Although it sounds noble, it actually denies the finished work of Jesus. The bible tells me that Jesus took away our sin.
In most denominations, people are working to get "sin out of their lives" instead of receiving the free gift of salvation from sin. Don't they know that Jesus' name is synonymous with such salvation? 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Most denominations do not believe that Jesus saves people from their sins. They prefer to believe He saves them in their sins.
If you are busying yourself with the noble cause of getting sin out of your life, you are in denial of the most fundamental truth of the bible - Jesus died to rid the world of sin. Acceptance of that reality is a matter of faith. If you don't believe it then you'd better get busy because sin will ultimately destroy you, your life, your family's life, and even your neighborhood. If Jesus did not get rid of the sin in your life then maybe you will have better luck at it than He did ;)
We work for what has been freely given to us.
Rob |
|
|
Norman |
|
April 22, 2008 at 2:38pm |
|
| That is really something worth pondering. I had never saw that before either or ever heard anyone mention the two contrasts. As I sat here and wondered how you came to that revelation it occured to that you didn't come up with that yourself. You must have had someone on the "inside". :-) kidding aside that is a great nugget you have there and it's great that you were willing to share that with the rest of us. |
|
|
hehe, yes I admit, there is someone on the "inside"....the Holy Spirit? :-) thanks, Norman! |
|
|
Gene |
|
April 22, 2008 at 6:13pm |
|
Mike, there is an even older parallel from the earliest stories in Genesis. Man was given the garden and told to work it. In that sense he was to tend it and care for it and nurture that which grew. But what grew was given freely. Even the garden itself was given freely. This is the Grace that God holds out for us all - tending to what is freely given. Which is really no "work' at all. However, we often view it as what we were left with after the expulsion - working the soil and reaping thistles - toiling all day for the meager fruits of our efforts.
God gave the garden freely. God gives his salvation freely. We cannot earn salvation any more than Adam could earn the garden.
Peace, brother!
(Happy Earth Day - speaking of gardens. . .) |
|
|
| Gene!!! Great to hear from ya, bud! Interesting parallel. Of course, only after the fall did our toil become "painful", only then did our striving and earning get us thorns and thistles as a reward. Thanks for stimulating us with that observation! I hope you're never far from the Lord in your newly busy schedule, bro. |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 22, 2008 at 8:43pm |
|
Gene and Mike,
Don't forget that God lifted that curse after the flood: 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Pre-flood, we had to be hunter/gatherers. Not so post-flood. That's why, today, we can grow crops, I guess.
Adam's sin was in trying to improve on Paradise. Religion's sin is in adding to what Jesus did on the cross. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Man was given the Garden like you give your kids the back yard to play in. Dressing and keeping the Garden wasn't a chore that Adam had to perform any more than riding around in your "Radio-Flyer" (little red wagon) was something your mom made you do.
There is no indication that Adam had to tend the Garden otherwise he would starve to death, is there? Am I missing something? Although, it doesn't say that he didn't have to sow crops and then reap them at harvest time, I think you'd have a tough time getting that interpretation past any serious bible scholar. The text implies but we infer.
Sometimes I think we live in different worlds, you and I.
Rob |
|
|
Hi Rob! I read your post with interest. Here are some thoughts (not to debate, and you may have the last word)........
God put Adam in the Garden and gave him responsibilities, work from which he could derive satisfaction, a sense of purpose. "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." There's no indication that this work was painful or "toilsome", and there's also no indication that he (and Eve) would starve due to lack of food if they didn't work. BUT, had they not worked in the Garden, they would have been in direct disobedience to God, right? This would have resulted in their banishment from the Garden even sooner!
I would tend to disagree with the assertion that Adam's sin was "trying to improve on Paradise". I don't read this anywhere. What I do read is God saying to Adam "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" This is the sin of disobedience, pure and simple. Adam elevated his desires above God's words of commandment (pride).
I'm also not sure about this: "Pre-flood, we had to be hunter/gatherers." Wasn't Adam a farmer after the Fall? Didn't God say "Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field." This looks very much like farming to me.
Furthermore, "Cain worked the soil" acc. to Gen 4. Again, looks like farming to me. Lamech, Noah's father said "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed." Again, growing crops, farming.
And if the curse was really lifted after the flood, why is the whole creation still groaning (Rom 8:22)? The curse on the ground resulting from mankind's sin appears to still be in effect, if you ask me. Rather than lifting the curse, it appears God simply pledged not to curse it yet again, as he also pledged not to send another global flood.
This is my reading, at least. Thanks for your comment! |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 23, 2008 at 11:55am |
|
Eeesh!
Let's try and reel in this discussion. Able kept cattle. Cain was a farmer. Farming wasn't impossible but it must have been considerably more difficult with a curse on the ground. And from the fossil record, we know that mankind experienced a "hunter/gatherer" phase prior to the adoption of large scale agriculture. That doesn't rule out people having a field where they could scratch out a meager existence.
The curse was lifted after the flood. I didn't say it, the bible says it. God lifted that curse using the same language He used to vow never to flood the earth again. The earth is not still flooded and the ground is not still under a curse (see Gen 8:21f). But this is a minor point.
The Whole Creation
Humans are the "whole creation" spoken about by the apostle Paul in Romans 8:22 - not rocks and trees, and dogs and cats.
Adam and Eve were created to live in pleasure and prosperity but in the Garden of Paradise, where every need and want was met, they somehow connected with a sense of lack. Think of it. In the midst of bounty, humans can be deceived into thinking God is withholding something from them. We can't help it; we were created that way.
They looked at God's great abundance and decided there was something more. Christians look at the abundance they have been given in Christ and immediately find fault with it. We've even created theologies to justify our sense of lack and our stingy God. Have you ever heard the saying: "God answers prayer three ways; 'Yes', 'No', and 'Wait'"? In other words, if your life has lack in it, it's God's fault. He's just holding out on you - probably for your own good. That deception worked well in the Garden and it works pretty well today too.
Regarding Disobedience
We absolutely know that the first commandment in the Garden was "Don't eat of the tree". Do you know how we know that? Because this is the very commandment they broke. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. The minute a commandment comes in contact with the flesh, the power to violate that commandment goes to work. We can't help it. It's how we were made.
Since you bring it up, let's examine what Romans 8 is talking about. The subject of Romans 8 is "flesh versus Spirit". It's not talking about animals or rocks or bugs. The American Standard Version (ASV) says: 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope God is the one who subjected man (the only "creation" that counts) to this vain fate. We didn't create ourselves to be like this. This is the doing of the Creator. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) translates this same verse as follows:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope (Rom. 8:20 NASB)
Notice that the word "Him" in the above passage is capitalized. Get out your NASB and read it for yourself. The translators judged that Paul was referring to God. God is the one who subjected the creation (mankind - not rocks and bugs) to the futility of the flesh. It has something to do with why we were created. This is not some newfangled revelation. I first encountered this over 20-years ago. The NASB is not some unreliable or paraphrased translation. Quite the contrary.
Part of renewing our minds is to really understand the nature of the flesh and the psychology of sin. Think about it. If God had given Adam and Eve a commandment that they could simply have chosen to obey then why did Jesus have to die on the cross? If the flesh could walk out the will of God without grace (i.e. God's power) then we would indeed NOT need Jesus and we could confidently "say we have no sin" (see 1 Jn. 1:8).
Mike, as Christians, we MUST connect the dots this way. Otherwise, in the flesh, sin is optional and Jesus died for no good reason. But we know better, don't we? In the flesh we are slaves to sin - we must violate His commandments. But if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfil the lust of the flesh (see Gal 5:16).
Now that's good news!
Rob |
|
|
Hey Rob, it seemed you were saying people couldn't live off the land before the flood ("Pre-flood, we had to be hunter/gatherers"), so I merely presented scriptural evidence to the contrary, several examples of people who apparently supported themselves by growing food. I don't presume to teach you, I merely presented evidence that I am familiar with. Cool?
Regarding the whole creation, if Rom 8:22 refers only to people why does it say "not only the creation, but we ourselves" in the following verse? Furthermore, were weeds, killer germs, predatory animals all part of "paradise"? I don't think so.
I don't think I disagree with your section entitled "Regarding Disobedience", but I'm not sure why you wrote it...I merely said that Adam's sin was one of disobedience born out of pride, rather than a desire to improve on Paradise. Again I don't presume to teach you, though if I perceive a clear contradiction with my understanding of God's word, I'll probably say something.
Thanks for going to the trouble of clarifying, Rob. |
|
|
| Now Mike, This is some "Deep thinking"! thanks. |
|
|
Rob |
|
April 23, 2008 at 3:06pm |
|
Mike,
The "we ourselves" is a reference to the ones who have received the Holy Spirit. You have to read the whole thing together. It's talking about the resurrection of the dead.
Mankind is often referred to as "creature":
Mark 16:15 - ...preach the gospel to every creature.
Col 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:23 - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Maybe Jesus died on the cross for dogs and cats and trees and rocks but I don't know why He'd do that. All that stuff is going to be burnt up at the end anyway. (No offense to dog and cat lovers).
Certainly weeds, killer germs, and predatory animals were all part of Paradise. Why wouldn't you think so? God gave Adam dominion over the earth (Gen. 1:26). He was not a victim of circumstance. He knew who he was - the son of God (Luke 3:38).
So Jesus comes along and restores us to our sonship. He freely gives us back our dominion over the planet but do we believe it? Not on your life. In the kingdom of God can anything be received which is not first believed? I should say not.
Mike, you don't have to "presume to teach" to teach. The words we speak and write teach volumes. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Many people don't believe we have dominion because they've never been taught it. Are you teaching dominion, Mike, or are you a victim of circumstance like the rest of the world?
People reject the free gift of God's goodness because they think He wants them to struggle to receive those blessings. I was raised Catholic. I know what I'm talking about. "Suffering is good for the soul" they say. Where is that written? They've turned the word of God inside out and upside down.
Have you received your sonship? Are you walking in dominion? By your not rebuking the storms of life are you permitting yourself to become the victim of circumstance? Listen to your own blog and receive what God has freely given. Believe Him for protection. The NIV translates 1 Jn. 5:18 like this:
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. (1 Jn. 5:18 NIV)
Do you believe that, Mike, or do you believe that a car accident may be something God cooked up to teach you a lesson? My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge!
If I don't believe the promises of God then the bible says I am NOT righteous. If you don't believe in God's protection from "killer germs" you might welcome deadly cancer into your life and believe it's the will of God. We get what we believe, Mike. This thing's a matter of life and death.
Do your kids believe God protects His people from harm? We get what we believe. If they believe He won't protect them then guess what...
We reject the free gifts of God because we cannot bring ourselves to acknowledge His goodness, protection, and salvation. He's given us everything we need for life and godliness but it's easier to destroy our confidence in God than it is to actually believe that. It's the Garden of Eden all over again.
Rob |
|
|
Rob, I say that "I don't presume to teach you", as a way of conveying humility in my posts. Your response reminds me of the counsel Job's friends offered, thinking they knew far more about the operations of God than they actually did. When you go against the grain, the least you can do is do it with humility.
I really don't have time to post a full response to the above, so I'm pasting sections from noted commentator David Brown's writings on Romans:
Romans 8-
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now--If for man's sake alone the earth was cursed, it cannot surprise us that it should share in his recovery. And if so, to represent it as sympathizing with man's miseries, and as looking forward to his complete redemption as the period of its own emancipation from its present sin-blighted condition, is a beautiful thought, and in harmony with the general teaching of Scripture on the subject. (See on JF & B for 2Pe 3:13). 23. And not only they, but ourselves also--or "not only [so], but even we ourselves"--that is, besides the inanimate creation.
2 Peter 3-
13. Nevertheless--"But": in contrast to the destructive effects of the day of God stand its constructive effects. As the flood was the baptism of the earth, eventuating in a renovated earth, partially delivered from "the curse," so the baptism with fire | |
|
| |
Subscribe to this blog
