Jay
||May 09, 2008 at 4:46pm|email it|324 reads
 

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Malleus Deum
May 09, 2008 at 5:45pm
Look foward to reading about your journey!
Gene
May 09, 2008 at 7:20pm
This is very exciting!  I can't wait to read your story.

Gene
Emae
May 09, 2008 at 8:27pm

A great site for a great NPR show.

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/being_catholic/map_index.shtml 

Grant
May 09, 2008 at 8:37pm
I look forward to this too. I have studied Catholicism and early church Christianity for a long time now. Perhaps some of your comments will center on answering my objections as to why I have not converted to Catholicism. I give such reasons as Marianism, Infallibility, authoritarianism and dogmatism in areas not commanded by Christ or His Apostles. Blessings!
Mike n Laura
May 09, 2008 at 11:26pm
I'm just marvelling that you have exactly 50! Why not 46, or 53, or 39....guess I can be pretty shallow! (It is late after all.)  Ok, well I too look forward to your reasons!
Gene
May 10, 2008 at 12:01pm
You know, when I converted it had nothing to do with an academic acceptance of church teaching.  It had everything to do with coming to know Christ. 

Just considering the tone of his blogs, I suspect that Jay may have something similar going on.  Thus my excitement.

When I was deep in the search, I had established the premise that every denomination had something about it that was wrong.  So that's I think people have a tough time reading any church's documentation and getting that warm fuzzy feeling that they're making the right move.  Hopefully, when we're looking for God we're open to His direction which includes selection of a denomination and church home.

Gene
GrowingInFaith
May 13, 2008 at 10:20am

I am curious as well.  I was in catholic schools from age 5 to 22.  I do think that Catholics can be Christians (hear me out here) but so many that surrounded me and are around me "go through the motions" (I know all denominations do) but what hung me up was the role of the priests, the changing of views (which were originally based on man-made rules, not scripture), the works-based salvation (do the sacraments, get in good with God).

I hope that your journey took you to Catholicism as a means to further understand Christ.  Because the Catholicism I knew and lived with knew very little of the Bible, and while they knew Jesus died and rose for us, there seemed to be a lot we had to do to get saved.

God Bless. 

Gene
May 13, 2008 at 11:10am
Growing,

Really?  You grew up believing that if you went through the motions you'd "be saved"?  I've heard this from a lot of people.

While I am truly exstatic about my Christian life as a Catholic, my biggest beef with them is religious education.  What you commented supports that.  I will tell you that there is a growing swell to correct that problem. 

Gene
GrowingInFaith
May 13, 2008 at 11:36am

Yep.  I really didn't understand the simple connection of this:

Jesus HAD to come to earth to die - to defeat death - in order for my sins (if I repented) to be wiped clean.

I'm 31...so I'm post-Vatican II.  We were  taught that when Jesus died, the gates of heaven were opened and now we could 'get in'.

With hindsight, I was basically taught a form of "universalism with a cost".  Everyone can get there, you just either have to DO enough things here to take time off your purgatory sentence, or spend time in that existence until you were purified.

PLEASE NOTE I do not think that Catholics cannot or are not saved, but many ARE not because they're off-target.  It's a case of hamartia or "missing the mark", and it's due to the education we receive.  I've often said that my grandparent's generation was pre-Vatican II, and didn't know the Bible unless they knew Latin, but were devout and regimented in their living.  My parents saw that dissolve, but passed on the 'motions' to my generation, who by and large dropped ANY belief in Christianity because Catholicism seemed to be more focused on bingo and not eating meat on Fridays than understanding why this Jesus guy was so important!

That's why so many people I've been around will go and drink and smoke and gamble and believe that confessing to a priest and saying prayers (rote repetition) wipes it out.  There's no repentance there.

Once again, I believe that many Catholics DO get it, but the education and 'baseline" understanding isn't there. 


 

Gene
May 13, 2008 at 11:52am
Hmmm.  That's sad to hear.  Too many people have just flat missed the richness.  Which is why I'm a major advocate of "seek ye first the kingdom of God" and being willing to be led by the Spirit. 

You were a Catholic led somewhere else so you could bloom.
I was a Baptist led to Catholicism so I could bloom.  Something similar apparently happened to Jay.

I came across a Baptist lady at work and we had a discussion about why she stopped attending church.  I think the bottom line for her was that she just didn't see the connection of what they talked about.

Unfortunately, I think the story you told is very similar to stories all across the country of people loosing interest in the faith of their childhood, regardless of the denomination.  The simplicity of the Gospel just keeps getting lost in religious red tape of all kinds.

Gene
Cade_One
May 23, 2008 at 9:08am

GrowingInFaith, I too am sad that your experience with Catholics is one of folks going through the motions.  I think it is easier to see the people going through the motions than it is to see those who are living the faith (walking with Christ).  We are almost trained to see the negative (ever watch the evening news?)  I also think that many times people see what they want to see.  My brother likes to find the negative in any and every Christian denomination (he doesn't "believe in organized religion").  I think this is to justify his "Just Me and Jesus" approach to Christianity.  But to take the church (Christ's body) out of the equation is not what Christ had in mind.  This type of Christianity can quickly become somewhat relativistic.  So my point is, if people start looking for the light of Christ within the body, we will be amazed to see how Christ is truly working in and around us.

On the topic of works. It seems that you have a bit of misunderstanding of what Catholics believe about faith & good works.  I know looking back on my own years as a child that I can't remember being taught certain things about the Christian faith.  That doesn't mean that I wasn't taught.  It could mean that at that time in my life, I wasn't ready to hear it.  May I ask how your parents lived out their Christian faith?  Too often parents send their children to Catholic or some other form of Christian schooling and expect their children to get a Christian upbringing.  If parents are not living it, chances are the children aren't going to grow up living it.  This is why it is so important that parents realize that church starts at home (the domestic church).
 

Jay
June 12, 2008 at 5:23pm
Malleus, Gene, Emae:
Thanks for the encouragement.  I hope that you will enjoy the telling of my journey.  It might take awhile for me to draft and get the story right, so pray.

Grant, Mike-n-Lau:
Thanks for saying you will read.  I hope you will find it interesting, despite your reservations about Catholicism, or my precise number... I guess 50 did seem a little precise for something directed by The Holy Spirit.

Cade_One:

I generally agree with your impatience with the critics of "Organized Religion."  Even when I struggled deeply with my faith (not precepts, but with the fundamental notion that Man made God, and not God was the Creator), I still knew that organized religion (Catholic, Protestant) was better than the "Me and Jesus" individual worship because that is the road to self-indulgence, indolence, sloth, and an entropy to the void.  Left to our own devices in the individual approach to Christianity, I suspect that most people would adopt the attitude of indulged only children.  

The confusion of what "works" means, and our commissions: to love and serve the Lord; love our neighbors as ourselves; making disciples of all people and nations does seem that it should be laid at the feet of parents.  But I also think that there is a willful/gleeful want by critics of Catholicism to twist living and being our faith in the world (being Eucharist, after receiving Eucharist) to a mercantile exchange of faithless charity for salvation.  Even I learned at secular undergraduate history courses that the myth of selling indulgences was a limited and quickly eliminated heresy. 

GrowinginFaith:  Properly educating children by word and example in the basics and life of Christianity (let alone Catholicism, or the alphabet) is a difficult process for parents.  I have worried about this from the first day my wife was pregnant with our first (miscarried) child.  I continue to really struggle with educating our family in Christ.  It is a constant up and down process.  I take my defeats to the confessional, and try to be humble about the successes in raising our surviving son.  I hope that there will not be defeats or unintentional hypocrisy that will lead my family to ruin here and in the afterlife.  I do affirm everyday that it being a good husband and father is my vocation.  It is my career. How I pursued that career, and explain to my son the truths, duties, and above all joys of Christian Life is the focus of upcoming post.  Sorry you felt cheated by took much focus on the mechanics of meatless Friday, and not the penitential reasons and joys of a small weekly sacrifice.  But I agree, Bingo is kind of lame to become fetishistic about :-).

Pursuit of the sacraments (and I assume you are talking about Confession and Confirmation here) should not be empty ritual.  Sorry if it was for you, and your questions went unsatisfied in your youth.  I have been told that only recently (past 10-15 years) has the understanding and teaching of the sacraments been renewed with vigor and joyous faith.  I hope you will stay with my series of posts on my conversion, as I hope to show a different side of Eucharist, Confession, Anointing of Sick and Confirmation, that is worthy of exploration since they are the most misunderstood or considered merely burdensome by most ex-Catholics of my acquaintance.

Jay
GrowingInFaith
July 02, 2008 at 11:22am

Cade_One not sure if you're still going to see this, but as far as the 'works' aspect goes, believe me...I was in Catholic school from kindergarten THROUGH the completion of my bachelor degree...I had to take quite a few classes in college too.

My issue lies with "salvation through sacraments"- those 'works'  are the ones that muddled me up and removed MANY of my friends from religion altogether.  In 17 years in catholic school, I never saw much of a  focus on Christ as much as the sacraments for the 'way' to salvation.

I am glad to see though, that your Christian walks are BOLSTERED by your Catholicism, not limited as it was for me.

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