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| Who Made Satan? |
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Who Made Satan?
Recently I have been listening to an interesting message about who made Satan. I want to try and explain the basic concepts of this message in hopes of getting some input and or feedback from the body. I like this message. If this is true, it only proves even further that we serve a loving, caring God.
Before I begin to try and relay this theory, let me explain that the author of this message does in fact admit that some of his idea is speculatory. But it seemed to strike a chord of truth with me and I want to see if others have heard teachings along this same line.
Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
Most of us have grown to believe that Satan rebelled against God in Heaven and was thrown to earth along with one-third of the angels, right? While this has certainly been my belief according to Revelations chapter twelve, that story has never sat real well with me. Why would God place two innocent creatures in the middle of the Garden with this evil, demonic being? Just to see what their chances of survival would be? I don't think so. That's not The True Nature of God.
There is so much about about God's Word that I have yet to gain an understanding of. The book of Revelations especially. Like the author of the message I am speaking of says, he is not certain whether this passage is speaking in symbolism or not. One thing that strikes me about the verses posted above is the fact that Satan is described as being the one already deceiving the whole world. According to the way I was taught, and if Satan was cast out of Heaven before mankind was created, then how could he have been deceiving the world already? The "world" did not yet exist. I don't know. Maybe I am just reading that wrong. But anyway, for the purposes of discussion, let's put these verses aside for a moment and let me continue with these thoughts according to the message. By the way, I am posting a link to this audio message at the end of this blog for those of you who would like to listen to it for yourselves.
Here's the basic concept:
God didn't create Satan. God created Lucifer. Man made Satan.
Lucifer was created as an angelic being. He was the anointed cherub.
And God never said to any of the angels, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.” Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation.
Angels were created to care for people.
So what if Lucifer was still in his perfect anointed state when God sent him to the earth? Is it possible that the transgression did not happen until after the creation of Adam? Could it be that God's plan was to send Lucifer as a ministering spirit for them?
Some people believe that the following passages found in Ezekiel are actually speaking about Lucifer. Let's take a look:
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
He was in Eden, the Garden of God. Who else was in the Garden? Timbrels and pipes? Wasn't Lucifer the worship leader? Could this be speaking of musical instruments built into this angelic being? Was Lucifer in the Garden in his perfect created state? Was he there to minister to Adam and Eve?
Is it possible that the transgression against God happened after the creation of man?
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
As we see in these verses God granted great authority to mankind. We were created to be the gods of this world:
82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Isn't it possible that Lucifer became jealous of man? Did he see this as an opportunity to finally gain the power and recognition that he had always wanted? Angelic power is a designated power. In other words, God could remove that power anytime he saw fit. But the power and authority He gave to man was irrevocable. He gave mankind dominion over this earthly realm and He would not go back on that promise. It became a law of God. (That's why Jesus had to come as a man by the way) Because man had authority over this earth it took a human body to house God's spirit and regain control. But that's another blog.
Is it possible that Lucifer saw the innocence of Adam and Eve and recognized their vulnerability and it was at this point that he rebelled against God?
And if this is so, could it not be said that because man fell for his deception that at this point we turned over our earthly authority to him unknowingly and, because of this it was actually man that made Satan?
Satan is operating on human authority only. He has no supernatural powers. The only power Satan has is that which we allow him. He cannot do anything without our cooperation. The old saying "the devil made me do it" is nothing but a cop-out.
The devil is a punk!
Anyway, that's all I have time to write for now. I thought this was a very interesting concept. How about you? What do you think? I would love to hear your thoughts, beliefs, arguments, or any other comments.
Here's the link to the audio file. I would suggest right-clicking it then choose "save as". Once it downloads it will open right up in Media Player.
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| Very interesting micheal! I personally need to read more to put forth an argument or a thoery...nevertheless a good question? Stu |
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Satan basically is "self awareness" and yes God creates every situation by either "hardening the heart, or designing a thought of delusion,while maintaining a higher way of thinking. The Bible hands both of these traits to God's credit.
Satan is just a "what if" concept in the self aware mind to contrast every situation that exist.
This is why with every post, their is a usual voice that speaks of another "what if" angle.
God is Love, and all things gravitate back to him who gave it. All spirits of men return to their creator. The reason for so much duality is because man has written the scripts that are the base of what we call Truth. Yes they are inspired. But being inspired does not mean infallible.
It takes a lifetime to finally just let God be one in all things and thank him for the experiences that all lead to our education and wisdom and good existence.
Kw |
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debo |
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May 23, 2008 at 7:08pm |
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Hey Micheal,
I also will do some further investigating into this and get back to you.
I do tend to agree with the statement of giving our authority to him. We sure do it everyday
now by our words (carelessly spoken).
I am not of the opinion however that (stated above in post) satan is "self awareness".
He is evil and is real.... and no God does not create every situation. God does allow ... because He created us to have free will and we by our choices create our own circumstances/situations.
Anyway... thanks for the thought provoking insights. I will listen.
be blessed brother and may you continue to be a light in the world! |
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Michael, Very interesting and though provoking post... as others have said I must spend time in study before voicing my opinion. The statement in on comment was that satan basically is "self awareness" and Satan is just a "what if" concept in the self aware mind to contrast every situation that exist" I must disagree with, satan is real and will be thrown into the pits of Hell.
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Michael, thought-provoking, thanks for sharing this!! Considering such thoughts together is a privilege and a joy! However, I will respectfully stick with the orthodox view. I believe the evidence presented in scripture, particularly the following from Isaiah, shows God created Satan/Lucifer as a beautiful angelic being w/free will, and he chose, like most of us, to rebel against God. There is no evidence (as you admit) that he was created Lucifer, and we turned him into Satan.
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart, (presented as the reason for his fall from heaven)
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
God bless you, Michael! |
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| ps.... I would be very careful about believing things like this... "Satan is operating on human authority only. He has no supernatural powers." We are strongly cautioned and warned about our Adversary, "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." Yes, in the next sentence we're told to resist the devil and he'll flee (from OUR thoughts), BUT the view you espouse seems to discount the possibility that the devil can use other people to come up against us, including loved ones!! He's a centuries old deceiver, with a well-organized legion at his disposal. And yes, he does have supernatural powers. He operates in the spirit realm....that in itself is "supernatural". Be careful, my friends!! |
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Great comments everyone. I do not have the time to respond to each and every one of them today but please know that I appreciate your input.
The jist of this message is basically just talking about how we often give the devil way too much credit and that the power the devil operates under was really intended to be given to man. But because he had the desire to exalt himself above God, he saw mankind as a loophole to gain power.
I actually meant to quote those verse from Isaiah Mike, the original message definitely talks about them.
"You said in your heart, (presented as the reason for his fall from heaven)
‘I will ascend to heaven;"
I will ascend to heaven? Was't he already there? Could it be that here, according to this verse, he was no longer in heaven but saw Adam and Eve as a chink in God's plan and a way for himself to re-ascend back?
I agree that the devil prowls around "like" a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Like a roaring lion though. Like a lion without any teeth. He only portrays that he's a lion. He's a liar! The truth is he only has power over us if we allow it. That's why all we have to do is resist and he will back down. He's like a bully. And if you ever dealt with bullies in school you will recall that bullies really don;t want to fight. They just want to intimidate. Most often they will turn tail and run if they are ever really confronted.
As you know Mike, I value your opinion and this reply is in no way argumentative. It's how we grow, right?
Anyway, I don't feel like I did the best of jobs relaying everything that the author had to say. I highly recommend listening to the audio.
God is a great God!
I am outta here for the day my friends. I have a few errands to run and then we are having a pool party at my apartment complex today! Pray for me!
In Love,
Michael
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Everything in the garden was Good, including the Serpent. Night and Day is Good. Dark and Light. The concept of Satan is just Like that Of God with people. We form Them according to our traditions. Christians need a good cop / bad cop to explain and reason this world. All Theology comes from man. Noticed I said ALL. For everything in Christ is sealed and only the Holy Spirit of Jesus can open the seals.
You will hear terms like God created Satan with a free will, but you will never get a verse after that statement. Nor will you find a verse where Satan/Devil Rebelled against God. What you get is traditional opinions of Men/Women that see a shadow on a wall and try in sincerity to explain the shadow. We quickly turn to the Theologians and Scholars who have archives of other shadow interpreters.
You will Never find a verse in the Bible where Satan disobeyed God. His position is that of Contrast, in order that we might gain the Wisdom of the Moment. You will never read of where Satan has a shape of his own. You will hear terms in allegorical concepts. Snake/dragons/scorpion ect.... Satan is best described as a contrast in our thinking awareness.
The pride side of religion is what Satan is all about. That "I am right/ you are wrong separated thing people do when they think"
The best advice I was given by the Spirit of God concerning Satan was His Throne is in the religious Voices of the many and is always a divided voice subtly planting seeds that separate human spirits by name tags.
Where in Jesus Christ is always a Voice in the many who are always harmonized as One Tone,
Proclaiming ALL MIGHTY POWER AND CONTROL EXPRESSED AS LOVE TO ALL CREATION regardless of name tagging.
Free will theology is a Satanic Seed of Contrast. There is no verse that states God gives a man a free will. Yes He can choose (he has self awareness). But the table man sits upon is not a free area. You do not place a baby on a railroad track and say you are free to choose little one. One must understand the terms completely without a shadow of ignorance to even start to choose. If one can not choose to not choose then they are not free to choose. But self awareness can create a term called free will, as free will can form a picture of contrast rather easily. Free will is also a great seed divider in the Voice of religion.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Notice from day one, Satan was a created contrast of the Truth. Notice also He did not change from "one thing" to another. His poisition has always been the same.
Kw. |
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He might have said "I will ascend to heaven", but first he "fell from heaven". My point, Satan's rebellion occurred even before his first interactions w/man, so I don't believe man is responsible for Satan's current state. Either way....we have the freedom to speculate. Again, God bless you Michael my bro. ~mike
ps.... kw, I can't understand what you're saying....very confusing, sorry! |
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Deb |
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May 24, 2008 at 7:26am |
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| Michael, I will have to agree with Mike n Laura on this, since the things he has said are the things I have learned and been taught in my study of the bible. I do believe satan has power, but only if we let him...if we hold fast to God and put on the full armor of God, God is much more powerful than he is. |
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Let's not forget what Jude wrote about our enemy: Jud 1:9 Even Michael, the chief angel, didn't dare to insult the devil, when the two of them were arguing about the body of Moses. All Michael said was, "The Lord will punish you!"
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Rob |
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May 24, 2008 at 3:46pm |
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Michael,
First of all, I want to thank you for turning me on to Andrew Wommack. What a blessing! He sounds just like Jim Richards out of Huntsville, Alabama. If you ever get a chance, logon to
http://www.impactministries.com/
and listen to some of his stuff.
While I'm downloading the lesson, let me chime in: I believe Revelation 12 is talking about Jesus becoming king and booting the devil out of heaven. The verse that says that loudest is Rev. 12:10
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
When did salvation come? Romans 4:25 says that Jesus was raised for our justification.
Rev. 12 isn't talking about a time before Adam and Eve, it seems to be talking about a time that the apostle John was witnessing. Remember, Rev 1:1 says: 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: I don't think there is much in that book that reaches too far back in time.
Love ya. Mean it,
Rob |
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Good to hear from you Rob.....long time - no speak!
I have listened to over 400 of Andrews messages. Andrew has spent over 38 years studying God's Word. I personally do not have that much time, at least not in this realm!
I'll check out Jim for sure...I'll be back... |
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Rob |
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May 24, 2008 at 4:08pm |
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P.S. - I just wanted to add, KingdomWithin is full o' beans. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Take THAT, KW! What up, dawg?
Actually, he makes an interesting point: There is much speculation as to the origin of the devil but to say, "God is good", is to make a comparative statement. Good is not good in a vacuum. If there is a personification of good, it stands to reason that there should also be a personification of evil too.
Since there is good, their must be evil. Now, I don't take that to the extent that KW does. He concludes that good and evil ultimately resolve to the same being - God. I can't go quite that far.
I heard it put this way once: Cold is the opposite of hot but you don't "add" anything to cool something off; you subtract heat. There is such a thing as "absolute zero", which is the coldest you can get - but there is no such thing as "absolute hot". Evil is the opposite of good but you don't have to add evil to anything, just remove God from it. Evil, therefore, is the absence of God. Absolute evil is the total absence of God.
Rob |
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Hey there dawg back at cha Rob Boy.............
If Evil is opposite of God, then there would be Two God's (two separate forces) . Do the math. God has no opposites, this would be impossible as there is only One God. Satan is not the opposite of God. This would make Two. There is only One God which works all in all.
All things work toward the good will of God. There can be no void if God is everywhere. Yet there can be a places where God is silent appearing as a void.
Kw |
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I have noticed also that there is quite a bit of Tradition concerning Satan forming imagery, instead of actual biblical documentation. The King of Tyrus (means rock) could be interpreted as Adam or just plain ole leader dude of the city of Tyrus than Satan. But everyone knows that self awareness can go anywhere it desires and form any opinion it wishes. Self awareness can Think outside of the box or inside the box.
One thing is for sure. There is no actual biblical documentation for the traditional Satan description where we get our concepts of a Satan working outside of God's wishes.
Satan wants the contrast and his rebellious crusade lie is what feeds the duality. The Church must have an enemy to survive in it's business and trade. Most are only secure in a world of duality where they are right and good against the evil backdrop of another world force.
Contrast has a duration in time. For now, it has it's right to speak it's words and test the Truth that is spoken in Christ. The Christ in mankind must be refined and tested. This present state called earth life is a great place to develop wisdom and agape Love against the backdrop of contrast.
Kw. |
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Hey there Mike and Laura; Confusing huh? Isn/t that the coded subtle seed word that implies "not of god" in Christian circles ? I'm a big boy. You can give it to me straight. I do not offend......well easily I guess. (I have my moments ha)
I think you are smart enough my friend to understand every word I said. Satan is BIG Business and little ole me ain't about to threaten his crusade to divide the body.
Kw |
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Rob |
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May 26, 2008 at 7:23am |
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KW,
I think you made my point. Evil is the opposite of good but Satan is not the opposite of God. Evil is the absence of good and Satan is the absence of God???
You make an excellent point, however. According to tradition, God is supposed to be everywhere (omnipresent) but then the apostle Paul talks about the gentiles - when they were without God. If tradition is correct and God is everywhere then it would be impossible for anyone to ever have been "without God". 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: So, I guess, tradition is mistaken. There is a place where God is not present and where evil has dominance. But you are correct. That evil is not exactly the opposite of God. It's just the absence of Him.
Rob |
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Rob;....Hey you agree with part of the ole boy Kw.....that is dangerous for you ain't it ?
Yeah tradition makes some pretty big mistakes. Tradition is going to have one darn tootin ashamed day in the son light soon. Paul was a man. He wasn't perfect. Darn good servant of the Lord though, but he was not infallible. Follow Jesus within the context of Love.
God is everywhere we are. The Gentiles were without knowledge of the Anointed. Christ equals anointed or anointing of God. (Insight of the mysteries of God)
God created evil Rob. If God created Evil, then it can not be void of it's creator nor opposite of him. Humans have opposites but God does not. Evil is a contrast of Good. Like a black dark night sky. We don't see stars very well in the day sky, but at night we see them well.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Your okay Rob, but ya ain't ready for the mountain top........ but you will eventually get there bro.
There isn't any way the hidden regime of devils will allow this blog to continue. It exposes their manipulation to much. So if you want we can eventually meet up somewhere else of our own blogs. Satan does not like light. Don't expect much fanfare with the Truth. Mankind prefers mixed and dark areas where Tradition rules the nest.
Kw. |
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Tom |
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May 26, 2008 at 8:12pm |
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Good blog y'all, I'm back from a out of town job.
Rob what do you do with: 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
If God Almighty creates evil, in order to fulfill His purpose, how will He "wipe His fingerprints from it" for it to be an absence of Him, the creator of it?
I will have to side with Job, and if Jesus (God) is Lord of all, than who am I to question whether what He is doing is Evil or not? Either Jesus is Lord of all , or He is not Lord at all, but some combatant of opposing forces like the ying yang,.........NNAAAAAAA, He is LORD OF ALL !
The devil is still a being who in my understanding does the will of God, he is my sparing partner in spiritual matters, it is written that the Lord will not put anything on me greater than I can bear, much the same as a coach will not put a beginner in the ring with a champion, the devil looks around for whom he may devour( sorry Mike but I don't think he can devour just anyone) but if they do not believe the lies he brings, even if it is manifested into the physical realm, the test of my faith is who's report are you going to believe? If you believe God's word, and stand on it, submitting all to Him, the devil will have to flee from you with his bags of tricks.( I may still be wet behind my ears KW, but I still think the devil is a being).
The verse about the devil seeking whom he may devour was explained by someone who had been to Africa. The lion pride will hide downwind from their prey, and the old toothless lion will go upwind and begin to roar, trying to frighten the prey into the young stronger ones downwind.
Now, if a antelope hears the roar, see's the lion, and lays down,giving up, then yes the old toothless one MAY find one that he could devour, but getting up to Michael's orig. comments,by doing that, you give the devil the rights to devour you! Right? The Antelope have the best chance of survival by running at the roaring lion, and yelling your just a liar! as you run by! Do not even believe the lie that there is reason to flee! Who doe's God tell us will flee from who????
That's all I got to say bout that! :)
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Rob |
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May 27, 2008 at 1:56pm |
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Tom!
What up, yo?
You guys are shattering my theology up in here! I've got this distinctly Pentecostal idea that "God is good, all the time." If that ain't so then I've got some rethinking ta do.
I'm not saying you're wrong. It's hard to argue with the word, eh? But if God is going to pitch me under a bus to see how I react, then it ain't gonna work out. You see, that's the kind of God I used to believe in. I might as well go back to the church of Christ. (They believe in an evil god). I can't go back to the church of Christ, however, because that god does not save from sin. That god is impotent and liable to pull the rug out from under you when you need him most. Their god is the worst kind of evil because he says he loves you out of the good side of his face but he takes kills, steals, and destroys you with the other side.
Honestly, if the God I've come to believe in is both good and evil then I'd rather be my own God (which, if god is evil then the one I believe in is a total fantasy and I'd be better off being my own god anyway.)
There's too much at stake if God is evil. My mom is a better god than the evil one. I'm going to start a blog entitled, "Is God Evil?" and take a poll. It may be that everyone believes God is not good all the time.
Rob |
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Tom |
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May 27, 2008 at 3:28pm |
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Hold on Rob, are we both talkin English here?
How in the world did you get "God is evil" from a verse that says He creates evil?
If I create a robot that takes the garbage out, how does that make me garbage??????
If Jesus says you will reap what you sow, and someone sows bad stuff, Jesus is the one in control that creates the "bad stuff" that will be reaped is all I see in that verse! Unless Grace comes and wipes out the harvest of "bad stuff" before it reaches maturity.
The Lord is going to "chastise" His children, does that make Him "evil"? What does He use to do the "chastising"? I've never seen a paddle materialise with the hand to do the spanking, so how does He do it? Different ways for different people, but He stays Holy, cause He is BOSS ! |
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Tom |
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May 27, 2008 at 8:46pm |
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Rob, God is good, all the time!
In His goodness, He disciplines us, not in his evilness, because there is never a bad intention, or motive, in anything that He has planned for us, as Kw points out, if we are on the receiving end of the paddle, it may be real tempting to think He who swings it is evil, but only to our childlike understanding. Because of the faith, and mature understanding Abraham had, he did not think it evil of The Lord to request him to sacrifice Isaac, because he knew who produced Isaac, the child of promise, and he also knew who could raise him from the dead (before Sarah knew anything was wrong with the boy!) :0) LOL whew!
We do not serve a God who holds our hand to the fire so we can turn to Him for healing.
Rather, He warns us of the fire which will burn us,calls us away from it, and takes the burning onto Himself, when we don't listen to Him, letting us walk in healing. |
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Hey there Boys............There is only One God. Sooner or later we all must accept this. To be God is to be the one who is in control. Rob, you can't be the Most High God, sorry. But neither can I.
God is like the air on a nice sunny blue sky day. But this air can also be a hurricane to purify the land and the filth. This air can destroy at times, It can bless, it can be seen as a curse. The earth doesn't see things as we do. From the throne evil is a servant. But from the ground level evil is an enemy.
Example. Adam did evil, and fell. But by death we are raise to a NEW CREATURE and become as Christ Himself.
Evil intentions Crucified Jesus. But this evil act was a blessing in disguise for the world. We are not just forgiven, but raised as Divine Son's of God. We Now are like God and know good and evil.
But if Evil is not in the control of God, any knowledge of it is not profitable.
Regardless of opinions. God created Evil for his Purpose, There is and never was a rebelling devil in scriptures. That is man made pot lucking dinner stuff that makes people feel they have something special cause they aren't following the bad guy. It promotes a good sell with books and helps preachers maintain a roll call concept. Hey to each their own.
You make some good points Tom. Oneness with God is a path that leads to higher awareness.
Kw. |
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| Hey Michael, I am still here. There is a friend request in your mail |
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I find it interesting that this blog could survive, being that Satan (who disguises himself as the god who speaks through us 2 Thes.2:4) does not permit passage to those who expose him.
Devils fear the Truth, and do not want people to know, they are dressed in angel attire (spiritual concepts) they prefer an evil image where people will turn away and migrate toward their imaged safe haven. (Imagi-nation / Egypt)
Kw.
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Rob |
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June 01, 2008 at 2:31pm |
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Alright, you guys. I've done some studying on this "God created evil" doctrine. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. It might help if we were to read this same verse in other translations. The NASB translates it as follows: 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. The less reliable NIV has it: 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
But it's interesting that the American Standard Version translates it just like The King James: 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
What's up with that? Here's a possible explanation.
Notice that the versions of the bible which translate this passage using the word "evil" are versions which existed prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 (the King James Version - 1611 AD and the American Standard Version - 1901 AD). The later versions of the bible (the NASB (1963) and the NIV (1983)) were translated after the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. The Dead Sea Scrolls were used in these later translation.
The "Great Isaiah Scroll", discovered in cave 1 in 1947 has been carbon-14 dated from as early as 335 BC to as late as 107 BC. This is the oldest Hebrew text known to man. The next oldest Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text) is about 1000 years newer (around 900 AD).
The Greek translation of the Old Testament is known as the Septuagint and is probably the version of the Old Testament Jesus used. The Greek Septuagint is also very old - dated at somewhere between 300 and 200 BC - but it's a translation from the original Hebrew.
I've said all that to say this: I cannot agree with the premise that God created evil. Good people do NOT create evil things. Evil can result from good things created but my personal theology cannot permit me to believe that God created evil.
I can believe that prior to Jesus' atoning sacrifice, God brought disaster on people. You don't have to read very far in the Old Testament before you find God raining fire and brimstone down on folks. Under the old world order, sin was judged pretty quickly and severely. Since Jesus turned away the wrath of God from mankind, we do not find God relating to man the same way. He's the same God but Jesus took all His wrath so that we don't have to - in this life.
There is a "day of reckoning", however. Even the most liberal apostle taught that God's wrath was only in abeyance pending the final judgment. 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
(I thought I'd head that one off at the pass because I know how Kingdom's mind works :)
"Evil"? No. "Calamity"? Yes. "Disaster"? Yes. If God is good then He cannot be the creator of evil.
The law of sowing and reaping are just the way things are. It's neither good nor evil. The word of God was good news to Moses but it was bad news to Pharaoh. Egypt (arguably) did not have to suffer plagues. But because of the hardness of Pharaoh's heart, the request to "let my people go" went unheeded. The result was suffering, death, and disaster.
God created the law of sowing and reaping. If one reaps disaster (as we all have), that's just life in the big city. I suppose, indirectly, the argument could be made that God caused my disaster but it's kind of a weak argument. If someone dies in an automobile accident it does not mean the auto manufacturer killed that person - unless they get a real good lawyer. But that's the subject of another blogue.
Rob |
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Stick around, there are more versions on the way.......surly you will find one that lines up with your perception. Even Strong's is changing his versions like a dime a dozen. Mankind gets to pick and choose the versions and even the books of what is accepted and what is rejected.
These affairs never reach the High courts of heaven. Only the True Jesus Christ can open the seals and represent mankind before the Throne. Here on this tested level, the Kingdom of God is not of this world. This world and ALLLLLLLLLL the translations is a man concept, created by men, who by force of manipulation, get their words to be heard. (for now, and only in this tested area) The Truth must be tested in an environment of a Lie.
If Evil can create its self, then there are Two God's at war.....and the evil one is winning the battle out of the 166 billion people that have crossed this planet.
(according to the rules of playstation that is)
We all know that God is God. But for a short time more, we have a say and get to take our turn at guessing what is causing the shadow on the wall.
God created the waster to do just what he does. To destroy.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
These blogs everyday explain well why God doesn't reveal himself to the masses. They do not like him being the Potter, nor his will being the deciding factor over the affairs of mankind.
But the Cross has won them all...........no matter how many versions the devils in the thoughts of mankind attempt to bring about. God does not negotiate salvation with mankind. No does he accept their faith. There are only Two Adams that concern God. The first is fallen and passes away. The second was victorious and his kingdom will expand without end.
As for now the spiritual advice of the called ones are :
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. I guess nothing means nothing, but at some point, they will probably change that word too.
Yeah and it does say EVERY MAN gets a reward of praise for going through this "valley" of death and lies and version after version of devil intertwined concepts.
But speak on there Rob............it is your turn brother.
Kw. |
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Rob |
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June 01, 2008 at 7:32pm |
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KW,
As long as English remains a living language, versions will have to be written to compensate for the changes in meaning of words. Here's what I mean: 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
In 1611 AD, using the king's English, the word "let" could either mean "allow" or it could mean "hinder". The NIV puts it this way: 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. In modern usage, "let" NEVER means "to hinder or restrain". The language evolves, dawg. You dig?
God created the destroyer, there's no doubt. Satan is a created being but he did not create himself. We don't know for certain how he became the prince of darkness, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air. All we know is that he became the personification of evil. Nobody on this blog ever claimed that the devil created himself. That's something you introduced (and then railed against).
Tom and KW. Let me ask you sumpthin'. As you know, I'm a convicted sex offender. You guys tend to use the same expression, "If God is not in control of everything then He's not in control of anything". Let me ax you dis. Would you say that God is in charge of my sexual offense against my victim?
Just curious,
Rob |
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Rob..............nice try there.......
God is in control of Rob........Rob was restricted by God. Rob lives in a container in which within this container Rob can move in any direction. But Rob does not have movement abilities outside this container. Rob does not get to go outside his body at this immature stage in development.
God is in complete control of Rob.
Rob also reasons with his observation point of view, never completely understanding that his observation is only one small point of view in a very big place. Truth is a very very very big place.
It can not be fully understood in one small tiny little room. Christians do not like the size of God's house, so they tend to stay in the refined areas with close walls at every side. They need their walls to observe in simple safe ways. These small/ wall protected areas are so provided by God
in that they can observe in simple ways of understanding.
Kw. |
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what does the word say?
Lets prove what the mystery of the stars represent first
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
The seven stars are Angels
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Now notice above 'And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to earth."
So stars are or represent Angels. And the Dragon took 1/3 down with him; so we can believe 2/3 are with us.
Now does God create evil or free choice in Angels and Humans?
Did 1/3 of the Angels rebell? If they did then they had free choice.
Does God see the future of course he does. Jesus said what to Peter 3 times you shall what ? deny me. Now I could go on on that but no need just read the word.
Does God use the devil to refine people ? Well lets see in Job ch 1
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Now God asked Satan what? What does Job 1:8 say.
God has a purpose to use even the Angels that have rebelled against him for good.
Another example of this is found in the letter of Paul to the Corinthians: 1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ultimately the rulers of the world played into the hands of God. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Does it say somethings or all things.
Interesting enough the scientists have recently discovered a RED STAR called MIRA 'A" with a long tail about 3 light years long ; and about 400 light years away.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Mira A may be another wonder of the above posted word from REV.
When God create man in his own image did he create something evil or with free choice ? Like wise concerning the Angels 2/3 never rebelled 1/3 did. Did God create them as evil or with free choice?
Rmartel |
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Your post is leading to a conclusion not stated (rebellion/Free Choice). It does not say Satan rebelled, nor does it say 1/3 of the angels rebelled. Revelation is a book that describes the unveiling of Jesus. It is not about Satan, but rather Jesus.
Jesus Gave the Dragon Power to actually overcome the saints. This is not a rebellion or a free choice, but a mission.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Kw. |
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Rob |
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June 02, 2008 at 7:55pm |
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KW,
So then, your answer is, "Yes". God is responsible for my sexual offence against a minor. Alright then. Since it was God's fault and not mine, it was therefore His sin (crime) and not mine, correct?
So why would Jesus have come to earth and die for MY sins when I have no sin? Is the bible wrong about that too? Did Jesus die for God's sin? Is God made righteous (as righteous as I am) by the sacrifice of Jesus? Didn't you once say that God was evil without Jesus? I think you did.
I think I finally understand your theology, KW. But since you did not answer my direct question, I can only assume I understand your broad illusive "truths". What a load!
Truth and logic are not broad but narrow. One plus one equal 2 (1 + 1 = 2) so that the logic of God can be understood. God's natural laws HELP us understand who He is. If what you espouse were true, then math would not help me know who God is. The laws of nature would lead me further from God and not bring me to a closer understanding of His nature. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KW, you're in the habit of throwing out the word whenever it conflicts with your opinion of God and righteousness. In fact, your theology has NO doctrine concerning righteousness (or none that you've ever written about, anyway). That's okay, though. If it's like all your other teachings, it will change the minute someone tries to pin it down to anything that can be used in their lives.
You're theology is vain, KW. It is empty and devoid of life. I could never have achieved freedom from sin by your "God is evil so if it feels good, do it" theology. Mormonism has ruined you, my pal. What a shame.
What is the KW teaching regarding righteousness?
Rob |
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Wow....this is quite the dialogue going on here......Who started this crazy blog anyway?
Oh yeah...I did!
Been on the run lately......I have not read these comments but hope to do so soon.......by the way.....did anyone actually listen to the audio message that started this whole topic?
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Rob;
You can't touch me my friend with your books, bible translations, concepts and doctrines of brain reasoning's. Look Rob, you can't be where I am right now. Your doctrine will not allow you to progress higher. One day you will either lay all those carnal reasoning concepts down on the altar of fire, along with all your earth based manipulated teachings or God will do this for you by force. That is between you and Him, not between me and You. But You will be Freed whether you like it or not. You are God's child and do not have free reign as you might think.
Jesus was made sin......can you even grasp that Rob? I doubt it brother. Jesus was made something called sin for me. It doesn't say he sinned now does it? It says he was made into sin,
morphed deep into the abyss of sin. Were talking at the core depths. Somewhere somehow this seed of eternal light broke it's (sin) power at the core. This Jesus ob-liberated sin at the core of it's existence that reign over the souls of mankind.(Pharaoh allegoricalized himself, though many times sin's heart is hardened and refuses to let God's people go)
So that I (the world/Adam) would become the righteousness of God. I nor you nor the world deserved this, but it was never the less granted because God's Love simply can not fail to deliver everyone it looks upon, we are his seed and this seed will never be allowed to see corruption. All the world is made into the righteousness of God. Without their consent. They just happen to be in Adam so that as sin gave them no choice, even so Righteousness neither grants them a choice. The brain does not reason this way as it can only understand it's right to pride and choice and can only reason with things it understands and See's. This is called Babel, and for now it is permitted...blah blah this translation, blah blah that translation. Blah blah this verse, blah blah that verse. For now men can blab along with their hidden host whatever they please.
Rob;
Your brain can not understand that it was never You who sinned or committed the act of sin. The courts and the other brains in human kind can not understand this either. They can only reason with the tools given to them and they do the best they can, though it is a losing war in many cases for them and the church and tax paying world. They can't understand how in the heck the body did something, but the act was not committed by the spirit of the individual child or offspring of God's seed.
Paul the Apostle of most of the new testament agrees with what I said. Paul the Apostle said :
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Can your brain say that...nope....not without a revelation from the Father himself my friend.
NOT I WHO SIN/ NOT I WHO DO IT. but rather the impostor who is inside of me so well intertwined into my brain waves and thoughts and heart that I can't find him to separate myself from his roots and vines. (only the angels have the power to do this and ONLY at death) For now we can but FORCE them into submission. But the clever one dress as religious ones are well excepted and face no real submission threat at this present time.
They get to continue eating, drinking and being their clever selves until the appearing Christ comes and destroys them.
See Rob...it is no longer You who is sinning but rather Sin which dwells within You.
The sin which dwells within you did the act. Not You, but the being secretly hiding within the temple of God, that mimics YOU ROB, and GOD so cleverly that you haven't a clue who you are or what you really would believe if the critter came out of camouflage hiding. It can quote as many verses and make as many bibles as necessary to create it's religious empire within your thinking belief system. Rob, it is so clever that it will never allow you the enlightenment of Truth without a direct intervention by God. It will oppose God, Rob through you. It will accuse mankind though you. It has an sin appetite that will never be quenched without being forcefully brought into submission by the Truth (only the truth can set us free. Truth is not it's habitat and it will flee this realm...but not without a fight for what it considers it's nest, not yours)
Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
IT IS NOT I WHO SIN , BUT IT IS SOMETHING ELSE DOING THE SINNING.
This is what Paul said, but do not expect this to ever be preached from a pulpit. They do not permit exposure, and anyone who exposes them will face direct opposition and persecution. Pharaoh and the task master do not like their city exposed nor their army and religious strongholds becoming threatened.
I've said enough, why should I cast my perils before those who only seek to trample me? You haven't a clue who is thinking in you Rob my friend. It ain't the god you think, nor the Rob you take pride in being.
Kw. |
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Rob;
You can't touch me my friend with your books, bible translations, concepts and doctrines of brain reasoning's. Look Rob, you can't be where I am right now. Your doctrine will not allow you to progress higher. One day you will either lay all those carnal reasoning concepts down on the altar of fire, along with all your earth based manipulated teachings or God will do this for you by force. That is between you and Him, not between me and You. But You will be Freed whether you like it or not. You are God's child and do not have free reign as you might think.
Jesus was made sin......can you even grasp that Rob? I doubt it brother. Jesus was made something called sin for me. It doesn't say he sinned now does it? It says he was made into sin,
morphed deep into the abyss of sin. Were talking at the core depths. Somewhere somehow this seed of eternal light broke it's (sin) power at the core. This Jesus ob-liberated sin at the core of it's existence that reign over the souls of mankind.(Pharaoh allegoricalized himself, though many times sin's heart is hardened and refuses to let God's people go)
So that I (the world/Adam) would become the righteousness of God. I nor you nor the world deserved this, but it was never the less granted because God's Love simply can not fail to deliver everyone it looks upon, we are his seed and this seed will never be allowed to see corruption. All the world is made into the righteousness of God. Without their consent. They just happen to be in Adam so that as sin gave them no choice, even so Righteousness neither grants them a choice. The brain does not reason this way as it can only understand it's right to pride and choice and can only reason with things it understands and See's. This is called Babel, and for now it is permitted...blah blah this translation, blah blah that translation. Blah blah this verse, blah blah that verse. For now men can blab along with their hidden host whatever they please.
Your brain can not understand that it was never You who sinned or committed the act of sin. The courts and the other brains in human kind can not understand this either. They can only reason with the tools given to them and they do the best they can, though it is a losing war in many cases for them and the church and tax paying world. They can't understand how in the heck the body did something, but the act was not committed by the spirit of the individual child or offspring of God's seed.
Paul the Apostle of most of the new testament agrees with what I said. Paul the Apostle said :
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Can your brain say that...nope....not without a revelation from the Father himself my friend.
You still fight flesh Rob, in all you blogs. You are fighting the wrong person. These things(tares) are spiritual and their strongholds are extreme religious in nature.
NOT I WHO SIN/ NOT I WHO DO IT. but rather the impostor who is inside of me so well intertwined into my brain waves and thoughts and heart that I can't find him to separate myself from his roots and vines. (only the angels have the power to do this and ONLY at death) For now we can but FORCE them into submission.(thank you God for the courts and the police, thank you Jesus) But the clever critters (TARES) dress as religious,well versed images and are well accepted and face no real submission threat at this present time.
They get to continue eating, drinking and being their clever selves until the appearing Christ comes and destroys them.
See Rob...it is no longer You who is sinning but rather Sin which dwells within You.
The sin which dwells within you did the act. Not You, but the being secretly hiding within the temple of God, that mimics YOU ROB, and GOD so cleverly that you haven't a clue who you are or what you really would believe if the critter came out of camouflage hiding. It can quote as many verses and make as many bibles as necessary to create it's religious empire within your thinking belief system. Rob, it is so clever that it will never allow you the enlightenment of Truth without a direct intervention by God. It will oppose God, Rob through you. It will accuse mankind though you. It has an sin appetite that will never be quenched without being forcefully brought into submission by the Truth (only the truth can set us free. Truth is not it's habitat and it will flee this realm...but not without a fight for what it considers it's nest, not yours)
Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
IT IS NOT I WHO SIN , BUT IT IS SOMETHING ELSE DOING THE SINNING.
This is what Paul said, but do not expect this to ever be preached from a pulpit. They do not permit exposure, and anyone who exposes them will face direct opposition and persecution. Pharaoh and the task master do not like their city exposed nor their army and religious strongholds becoming threatened.
I've said enough, why should I cast my perils before those who only seek to trample me? You haven't a clue who is thinking in you Rob my friend. It ain't the god you think, nor the Rob you take pride in being.
Kw. |
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Rob |
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June 03, 2008 at 9:12pm |
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Michael,
I just want to say, thank you for turning me on to Andrew Wommack. This guy is awesome. I listened to the whole thing today at work. What a blessing. Such interesting concepts! God created Lucifer but man made him Satan. Very interesting!
My wife and I are both feasting on the excellent teaching from the Wommack website.
Rob |
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