Kathy, I like the way you lay out your discussion here. As one who doesn't totally agree with your conclusion, let me ask a couple of questions:

1. What is the basic difference between the culture then and the culture now as it relates to alcohol?  Let's face it, the culture then didn't have much else to drink. They drank fermented drinks because they were safe. Today we have a plethora of choices. (I'd like a raspberry peach smoothie, please.) I contend the root issue is money. People can afford alcohol more readily than they could in the culture of Jesus' time.  I have more thoughts here, but I'll wait for your thoughts on this - you could change my mind.

2.  If I carry your logic to gluttony, I would be eating tofu and drinking water (sarcasm intended and done with a smile).

I personally contend that alcohol is an issue because we, as a church, choose to make it an issue - just as we do about women wearing dresses and makeup, KJV only, tongues, etc.

As a discipleship issue, if you need alcohol, throw it away. If you need sugar, throw it away. If you need XXX, throw it away. You ONLY need JC. After that is settled, the rest is just details, IMHO.

BTW, did I say this is a great post???

through my life exsperiences with alcoholism of my family and my own I choose not to drink as I have come to learn that once I take one drink I am powerless over it and it controls me. So for me alcohol is a no no big time. Thank you so much for your blog. Special Blessings.  

Sorry about that Kathy...this conclusion is the one I am referring to:

 But can we then say definitively that drinking is not a sin for Christians in today's culture?  I don't think so.

I would have to say that yes, they were abusing the sacrament. One wonders if they would have buttered consecrated bread while they were at it.

Wine should be used in the Eucharist (or Communion). The recipient doesn't have to partake of both species. If they have a problem with alcohol, they may just kiss the chalice. I don't think that changing a sacrament (ie substituting grape juice for wine) that has been in existence for almost two thousand years really solves the problem. Compassionate love must also be tempered with discipline. 

I've always treated the whole drinking thing tongue-in-cheek, and you can see this in my slavery blog.

Your blog here is exceptionally well-written.  My nonchalantness is most probably due to my personal experiences, as you say.  I haven't met an alcoholic before, and my parents were occasional drinkers (a glass/can/bottle semi-weekly).  Unlike you, I relish the exquisit nuances of well-made wine.  I was in a social fraternity in college (before I became a Christian) which engaged in lots of underage drinking.  We had some near-emergencies.  I never got drunk because I didn't prefer to get drunk.  Yet you'll still hear me cheer, "Beer?  Bring it on!  Let the party roll!"  A guy in my men's group brought some moonshine to Bible study once.  We all cheered (again tongue-in-cheek), although only three of us had a single shot and subsequently ignored the jug.  Apparently none of us have a problem with alcohol.  Perhaps my nonchalIantness means I'm just stupid.

Stuff to think about.  Thanks.  Sanctification happens in strange ways, I'm finding.

One thing I wanted to mention is the French culture.  Children are drinking -- with their families -- at a very young age.  To the French, wine is just like caffeinated soda.  I'm not too familiar with the French, but I cannot imagine teenage French children expressing the same fascination with alcohol that your students express.  What is forbidden will be explored.  What is known is uninteresting.  This could have been the same social climate in Jesus' day.  Perhaps it's a preferred climate?  I don't know enough about the French to say.

There is also the aspect of genetic susceptibility to alcoholism.  Some families are highly susceptible, others are immune.   I wonder if alcoholism was a genetic problem in Jesus' day.  Is it in France today?  In a society that has many who are susceptible, I think that is a good reason to demote alcohol all-around.  Like perhaps what we're seeing with MSG.  Some are highly allergic, others are not at all, so MSG is removed altogether.  I dunno.  Random thoughts as I absorb your blog.  Thanks for writing.

Thanks, Phil, for sharing a point of view that many share!  Can you really eat 5 triple cheeseburgers in one day?   :)

Eric, I enjoyed your slavery blog.  And I am very happy for you that you have not encountered alcoholics!  One of my close friends is quite the wine connoisseur (I had to use a dictionary to spell that one!) also.  He loves to discuss all the nuances of the different wines. 

You are right that other cultures without drinking ages don't share our cultural glamorization of alcohol.  There are still those who overdrink, but it's not a part of the youth culture any more than drinking Cokes is here.  They drink it, but they don't brag about it the rest of the week!  Is that kind of culture preferred?  That's been debated a long time with apparently no conclusion.

The issue you raised of genetic suspectibility is another good one worthy of consideration in any alcohol discussion.  I always enjoy your "random thoughts," as they are well reasoned and thought out! 

Thanks Gene!  I always appreciate your wisdom!

Ritey, you sound like a wise woman who thinks and cares about actions and consequences!

Cheryl, much wisdom and passion in your comments!  Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Dennis, you know I am likewise a big proponent of freedom, and not legalism!  And it's been a while since I "stirred the pot!"   lol    I got a message from someone this week asking me when I was going to write another "insightful" blog!  He hasn't shown up here yet.  Maybe this one didn't make the mark!    :)

Thank you, Woman of Laughter!   :)

An example of drinking in two lives......
Me : I was raised SB, and oh myyyyyyyy, my daddy came home from the coal mines and had 2 beers everyday. Alcohol wasn't considered evil in my home. I remember that dad would sometimes even allow me to have a sip. I can drink one glass of wine and that's it......but as I stated above, i don't because I won't be a stumbling block.

Hubby : Was raised no church, but alcohol was the worst thing you could do in your life. He's now an alcoholic.

I believe that for him, it was the excitement of doing something that he was forbidden to do and rebeling that started him drinking. Why? Because I listened to it preached over and over and tales of his father drinking and family drinking, pre-mother in law......as a teenager I'm sure he wanted to say " Tell me I can't do this and I'll prove you wrong!"

PS: Modern medical science says that a glass or two of wine a day is good for my health. As I only drink a glass every other month or so, I have determined to increase my intake. Also, hops are supposed to settle the stomach and calm the nerves. As I only drink a beer every other week or so, I have determined to increase my intake. For these reasons I have determined to set other Christians a good example and drink occasionally, encouraging them to obey Paul's injunction to take a little wine for their stomach's sake. When I do I will be sure to toast a blessing to all my teetotaling brothers and sisters.

Kathy, as usual...an excellent post!

I agree with the general summary...not a sin; however, not something I want to participate in...Personally, I do not want to support the industry.

Good article (albeit long) here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14482a.htm 

Wow, Malleus!  What a great article (novel)!  A thorough history on the temperance movement worldwide.  I was especially interested in the distinction of the temperance and abstinence movements in the U.S. and that Benjamin Rush had a part in the beginning.  Thanks for the link!

This passage continues to again discuss the eating of food sacrificed to idols.  As other commenters have pointed out, the Corinthian church was apparently struggling with the same underlying issues we are discussing here.

Ah, a great summary statement, for unity:

I say what is in your heart?  I would never want to cause my brother to stumble!  

:)

     Can we be more ethical than Jesus?

     Most evangelicals would consider such a question to be the height of absurdity. Since we
     consider Jesus to be the very standard for moral conduct, it would be impossible to be more
     ethical than our own Redeemer. What we claim to believe, though, is often often betrayed by
     our actions.

     For example, while we Southern Baptists consider Christ to be the Creator and Sustainer of
     the cosmos, we do not consider him fit to serve as a trustee for the Southern Baptist  Convention.
     Not only was Jesus a "user of alcoholic beverages" (Luke 7:33-34) but he turned water into
     wine for a wedding (John 2), a miracle that must be frowned upon by a group that is in "total
     opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic
     beverages."
Like they say, "read the rest."

Thank you, Pastor Dan.  A great article for this discussion!  The author makes the classic rebuttal to my position, with no surprises, many points of which have been made by commenters here.  Two observations:  1.  He is arguing a position in response to the SBC's polar position, with tongue occasionally in cheek, perhaps overstating his own passion in compensation for the hard-nosed "drinking is sin" mentality.  Some of the author's points pander to the unstudied reader (for example "But we should be cautious about where we mark those lines -- especially when they would put Jesus on the wrong side"), and I am sure he was aware of that.  2.  This article does not respond to my presented  position at all, but with the black and white.  Nonetheless, it is indeed pertinent here.

He said:  "I'm stymied by the obvious question: Why did Jesus not refrain from drinking alcohol if it is an obvious "stumbling block" to our "weaker brothers"?"  As I have stated repeatedly here, Jesus did not live in our 21st century American culture, and yes, that truly makes a difference, just as it makes a difference in interpreting the Apostle Paul's instructions concerning women in the church, and in interpreting the issues of slavery and polygamy . . . 

He said, "Where does Christian liberty end and institutional authority over matters of conscience begin?"  Here I am in complete agreement with him.  The "higher calling" I talk about is not a mandated one, or an institutionalized one, but a very individual one, which those who see the world in only black and white will never understand.  Life is filled with these higher roads, and none of us take them all.  I think it takes a calling to step outside the culture (even, and perhaps especially, the Christian culture, which this author is doing, but he stops after breaking away from tradition, when there's still road ahead.)

""I'll not drink this beer, if you admit you are the weaker brethren." They seemed even more grumpy after that."  Arrogant and simple-minded statement.  Obviously self-serving and without respect or understanding for anyone other than self, as is this one:  "Let's assume every person is a potential nitwit and penalize him so that we superior people aren't inconvenienced by his weakness when it manifests itself."

A commenter said, "the irony to me is that it's rarely the "weaker brother" who is offended - it's people who have been Christians . . ."  Again, the point is missed.  The weaker brother passage is not about "offending" others.  It is about loving them enough not to take a chance of causing them to stumble.  Our culture is filled with alcoholics, crowd followers, and victims of alcoholism, few of which wear those labels outwardly for us to see.  They will not be offended by our drinks, but they and their families may suffer greatly from their "stumbling."   

From the comments:  "It's pretty simple, don't drink until you become intoxicated. It is infantile to suggest that you are somehow helpless and unable to control yourself . . ."   Spoken in ignorance.  Sounds logical, but addiction does not respond to logic.

Another commenter says "Fact is, so many of us want black-n-white answers for all issues, when in fact there are indeed some gray areas."  Definitely, as with most issues we Christians debate.

Another commenter with whom I agree:  "I would call consumption of alcohol unwise. The scriptures do not seem to prohibit it totally, but the warnings by Solomon, Paul, and others cannot be dismissed lightly. It is better, especially in light of our confused culture, to abstain from intoxicants."

The difference I perceive in this debate is one of principle (with which a totally agree), vs. one of passion that comes from the wisdom of experience (which in this case is wisdom I guess one is blessed not to have).  I speak from both.  Please do not hear me as saying I live a higher road than other Christians.  I'm sure that is not so.  But on this issue, whether I walk the high road or not, I stand firmly by my assertion that such a higher road exists, for those who God calls to take it  There are higher roads in almost every decision in life, not just alcohol, should we seek them.

Thank you, Pastor Dan!  Wow, I didn't mean to spend so long on that article, but it was a good one!

Thank you for coming back, Lara!  I like your perspective, and I love the sparkling juices too!

I finally get around to reading your blog and I've got 80-something comments to read, too.  Whew!  Great input, everyone.  Feelings run strong on this topic, don't they?

As you and I have talked about before, Kathy, I don't drink, either.  I used to, before I was a believer, and got drunk more times than I can remember.  Then, at the ripe old age of 18, I realized how stupid it was, and what stupid things I did when I was in that state, and I never got drunk again.  Once I became a Christian, I developed a "one beer" policy, as I knew that it wasn't enough to get me drunk.  Then, about five years ago, I stopped drinking altogether.  I had become allergic to something in beer and had breathing problems and hives if I drank any, even a swallow or two.  No more Moose Drool for Jen!  :-(

I don't see drinking as prohibited in the Bible, but getting drunk certainly is.  I hear what you're saying about feeling called to take the higher ground on it.  I consider that one of the benefits of me not drinking alcohol any longer.  Sad to say, I'm not motivated to give up foods with sugar in order to keep a brother with diabetes from stumbling.  (I wouldn't, however, offer him a piece of cake if he came to my house!)

Alcohol abuse is a very real problem in our society.  I think it would be awesome if all of us took the time to think/pray about what we could do to counteract its debilitating toll on our society. For some of us, the conviction might come to quit drinking, for others, it could be some other kind of action.  Who knows?  Well, actually, God knows.  I'd bet that He'd love to hear from His children that they are willing to be led by Him in how He'd like them to impact their world.  And I'd bet a lot of us would end up being surprised by what He wanted us to do. 

This topic hits close to home.  Last Sunday I got a call very early in the morning.  Some very good, very strong Christian friends from our church had just found out that their son had died from alcohol poisoning.  He had been partying the night before and was so wasted that his roommate had to put him to bed.  In the morning, he was found dead.  Needless to say, our friends are devistated.  Their son, thank God, was a true believer, but he had been caught up in the grips of alcohol off and on since he was in high school. 

Lara, I'll give it a try and let you know what I think!    :)

Quite a sobering story, Golden.  You have lived through an experience that most of us cannot even find a framework to imagine.  You are to be honored. 

I'm a late reader of this blog and its comments.  It was very enlightening to me.

I grew up in an alcoholic culture and pretty much bought into the whole concept of "social drinking" and using alcohol to dull the senses or distract from unpleasantness.  It's a mood-modifier.

When I met my husband he also drank.  But then he began to study the Bible and impressed me with the concept of the body being the temple of our souls.  Why would I want to blear up our communication with the Holy Spirit?  That's how it comes out for me.  Same goes for highly processed foods, overeating, etc. etc.-- we give in to those 'unnatural' substances (not really nurturing in any sense of the word).  A woman who doesn't know she is pregnant can drink and cause fetal alcohol effects for her unborn infant-- scientists don't know yet when/how much alcohol is the trigger.  And a well-studied Messianic Jew I know does contend that in the days of the Bible the 'new wine' was indeed fresh grape juice-- the same wine that Paul suggested Timothy take-- a different word from the more highly fermented 'old wine' -- the new wine was stored in 'new skins' so as not to be fermented by the 'old wine'-- just like I remove any molding fruit from a bowl before the unblighted fruit is affected.

Nothing new here for most folks, I'm sure, and it probably sounds quite legalistic.

I don't drink largely for health reasons, but also because any alcohol has an effect on my brain that I can prevent.  The so-called health benefits of red wine found in resveratrol are also found in unfermented grape juice or in just eating grapes themselves.  There are lots of reasons to keep drinking, smoking, and overeating.  We're human.

And just to update people who believe that somehow the French have a superior ability to drink without any 'issues' a July AA Review in the UK records this: "Binge-drinking has increasingly come under the media spotlight. Multiple cases of teenage students turning up to school blind drunk have been reported, as have incidents of young people suffering temporary alcohol-induced comas. Just last month, an 18-year-old student in central France drank himself to death while celebrating his passage of the baccalaureate exam." Looks like the god Bacchus is having his way with French youth (European youth, actually-- youth binge drinking is widespread) as well as North American youth.

Thought-provoking, as all of your blogs tend to be, Kathy.  Thank you.

God bless, Cynthia 

Cynthia, thanks for your very interesting comments, and it's never too late to participate in a blog discussion!

Hi Grant!  Nice to hear from you again!