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| Christians and Alcohol |
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Several years ago (before I was at Enon) I was at an overnight retreat in the home of one of the couples in my small group Bible Study. Although Southern Baptists (who observe communion with grape juice), we shared communion that evening with wine. I found that unusual, but I participated worshipfully, until my worship was broken, as the others began returning to the kitchen repeatedly for communion refills. My worshipful mood changed to a convicting feeling of being somewhere God didn't want me to be, and I packed up my sleeping bag and went home. Were they abusing the sacrament/ordinance? Was I an immature Christian?
We have all heard a plethora of opinions about whether or not Christians should drink:
"Drinking is a sin."
"Drinking is fine. Getting drunk is a sin."
"Drinking a glass of wine every day is good for your health."
"Drinking is a pleasure for adults but a sin for teen-agers."
Most of us are familiar with all of these opinions and others, and we have probably adopted whichever one most appeals to our own preference for drinking. Then we justify it with Scripture. (Almost any preconceived human notion can be justified with Scripture.)
I wonder how many of us would come to the same conclusion if we sought God's will apart from any personal bias. Would our opinions be different? To what degree are our personal opinions about drinking dependent on our personal life experiences?
Are tee-totaling Southern Baptists more Christ-like than Episcopalians who go out for drinks with their priests? (Someone said the difference between Baptists and other denominations is that the other denominations don't hide when they walk into the liquor store . . .)
I believe most of our notions about drinking stem from our own personal life experiences, from the attitudes about alcohol in our childhood homes and churches, to our use of alcohol during our rebellious teen years. Following are my personal thoughts and conclusions about drinking, which are definitely based on my own life experiences, coupled with seriously seeking the mind of Christ on this subject for our century.
Although I do not take a legalistic stand (I may drink a half a glass of wine a year on some special occasion), I generally choose not to drink. There are many underlying reasons for this choice, and I believe there are many benefits that result from it. First, I should say there are many life experiences that have brought me to this choice:
1. I am a life-long Southern Baptist, and Southern Baptists have traditionally stood against drinking alcohol, teaching that drinking is one of the list of sins to be avoided at all costs (along with murder, stealing, etc.) (If you have read many of my other blogs, you know that I am not a blind follower of everything the Baptists teach.)
2. I was raised by tee-totaling parents, who, to my knowledge, took a rare occasional drink only to break up a bad cold.
3. I have witnessed the devastating effects of alcoholism in my extended family.
4. I taught high school for 12 years and witnessed the students' fascination with drinking, and the many dangers it imposes.
5. I don't like the taste of alcohol. (This one makes my choice quite convenient!)
What does the Bible say?
Now, let's move on, and look at the subject of drinking, not from my experiences, but from a Biblical perspective.
I find nothing in Scripture that spells out that drinking is inherently a sin. To claim that Jesus was really drinking grape juice, or that He changed water into grape juice at the wedding (John 2:1-11), is not an honest reading of the Scripture. Wine was obviously a part of Jesus' culture, and He gave no indication that drinking wine was a sinful practice. The people at the wedding feast were amazed that the best wine (that Jesus made from water) was saved for last, as it was the practice to serve the best first, before people began to get intoxicated.
Ephesians does give us the oft quoted verse against drunkenness:
5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,
And Proverbs says:
20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
There are numerous other references in Scripture to wine and to drunkenness, far too many to list all of them here, but I would conclude that in Jesus' day drinking was practiced and acceptable, but drunkeness was not looked upon favorably.
Now, I have said many times that all writings, including Scripture, must be interpreted within the culture in which they were written, which is the perspective we just examined. But can we then say definitively that drinking is not a sin for Christians in today's culture? I don't think so. Although I understand and respect those Christians who have reached other conclusions, I believe if we look at Scripture as a whole, in light of our present society, the most Christ-like response is usually to choose against alcohol.
We live in a very different society from that of Jesus' time. Alcohol is the most abused of many drugs used socially and recreationally, sometimes leading to addiction that destroys many innocent lives. Our youth drink irresponsibly and rebelliously. We drive cars, not donkeys, putting ourselves and others in danger when we drink. "But I don't do any of these," we say. "I am a responsible drinker." Let's dig deeper.
First, when we drink, there is always the danger of personal addiction. No drinker ever plans to become an alcoholic, but our society is filled with those who have fallen to this addiction, often destroying their families with dysfunction and abuse, which may live on for several subsequent generations, far beyond the life of the alcoholic. None of us think we could become addicted, but none of them thought so either. The only sure way to avoid becoming addicted, just as with any other drug, is to avoid the drug.
Second, and the largest of all deterrents for me personally, our drinking inevitably encourages others around us to drink. We discourage our youth from drinking. Yet they see us drinking, so it can't be that bad. Thus they drink with friends, get behind the wheel or ride with someone else who is equally impaired, possibly begin a pattern that leads to their own addiction . . .
When I taught high school, it was very important to me to let my students know that I didn't drink. This intrigued them, as they never even realized that was a choice for adults. Studies have shown that children are more likely to drink (and at a younger age) if their parents are drinkers. And we cannot predict which of those we influence will become addicted or, God forbid, will kill someone driving drunk.
Third, we are cautioned in Scripture against causing another to stumble.
14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats; 14:21 it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble.
This could include the previous discussion, of causing others to follow our drinking, but it could also refer to a deeper spiritual stumbling. If a young or new Christian believes drinking is wrong, and he sees us drinking, knowing we profess to be Christian, this can be a tragic deterrent to His life with Christ, causing confusion and disillusion. This may have repercussions, not only on his actions, but on his salvation.
Finally, we like to say that we witness through our actions, and I agree 100%. However, what is it in our actions that bring others to see us as different from everyone else? There are some easy ways we can distinguish ourselves from the culture around us. People take notice when we don't use profanity in our speech. They notice when we constantly build others up and refuse to participate in gossip or tearing others down. And they notice when everyone else orders beer and we order Coke. This is an easy witness, that sets us apart, and may afford us many opportunities to share our faith with those who ask us.
One person's alcohol abuse can bring total dysfunction to the lives of his wife and children, leading to physical and emotional abuse of his children to their children, and their children to the next generation, multiplying in numbers with each generation, leaving hundreds of abusive lives even after his death. Maybe I will not become that alcoholic. But I want to do all I can to assure that my life is not a detriment to that one who would fall to such an addiction. I see it as my Christian duty.
One final thought: All of these scenarios are hypothetical. It's possible we could drink without ever becoming addicted, harming anyone, or causing anyone else to stumble. But we can't make that prediction, nor even ever have a clue about the stumbling. Only we can decide for ourselves whether our taste for wine, or our social beer-drinking with the guys is worth the risks. Perhaps it comes down to that familiar stuggle of my will versus . . .
I think I'll just have a lemonade, please, or maybe a strawberry smoothie.
Note: If your life has been devastated by the alcohol abuse of yourself or someone else, you are not stuck where you are. With God's help and our own inner strength, we can all overcome whatever circumstance life has given us. |
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Deb |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:13am |
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| Like you, I do not care for the taste of alcohol, which is why I don't drink too often. I have found a peach wine that is not as high in alcohol that I do enjoy, and occasionally, but not often, drink it. As far as social drinking or any other type, I don't partake. I don't judge people who do drink, but if someone has an addiction to it, then I feel it is important that they get help and then stay away from it. I am very much against drinking and driving, so at that point I will become judgemental! If you choose to put others at risk because of your drinking, then I have an issue with that!!! There are so many non-alcoholic drinks out there, that we really do have a choice of what to drink! I think it is best to not drink, especially if you think you can't control it. If you repeatedly get drunk, then I think it is time to stop. Give me a diet Pepsi please! |
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Kathy, I like the way you lay out your discussion here. As one who doesn't totally agree with your conclusion, let me ask a couple of questions:
1. What is the basic difference between the culture then and the culture now as it relates to alcohol? Let's face it, the culture then didn't have much else to drink. They drank fermented drinks because they were safe. Today we have a plethora of choices. (I'd like a raspberry peach smoothie, please.) I contend the root issue is money. People can afford alcohol more readily than they could in the culture of Jesus' time. I have more thoughts here, but I'll wait for your thoughts on this - you could change my mind.
2. If I carry your logic to gluttony, I would be eating tofu and drinking water (sarcasm intended and done with a smile).
I personally contend that alcohol is an issue because we, as a church, choose to make it an issue - just as we do about women wearing dresses and makeup, KJV only, tongues, etc.
As a discipleship issue, if you need alcohol, throw it away. If you need sugar, throw it away. If you need XXX, throw it away. You ONLY need JC. After that is settled, the rest is just details, IMHO.
BTW, did I say this is a great post??? |
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| Great blog! I do not drink because I don't want to be the stumbling block :) |
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| Great blog, a real eye opener for me. |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:44am |
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Deb, I, like you, do not judge my Christian brothers and sisters who choose to drink. As I said in the blog, there are many personal experiences that lead us to our opinions, and this issue, though an important one on many fronts, is not an essential one for evaluating a person's Christian faith. Thank you for sharing your own experiences.
Angel Spirit and Cindy, thank you for your comments!
Voice, please clarify for me, before I respond to your thoughts: You said "As one who doesn't totally agree with your conclusion." Which conclusion are you referring to? The choice not to drink? My conclusion under the Proverbs 20:1 box? Thanks, and you know I always enjoy hearing your opinions! |
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Glenn |
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May 29, 2008 at 12:15pm |
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Kathy, well written defense of abstanence. I dare say you will probably not find many here to argue with you. Even though I occasionally drink wine, or a beer, I can not argue against most of your logic above. I tend to believe it doesn't have to be an issue at all, and avoid making the argument in favor or against it. It is just a none issue for me personally.
That said I can see how abstinence could in and of itself be a witness when we are out with acquaintances.
Good blog and I look forward to catching the discussion as it is developed. |
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through my life exsperiences with alcoholism of my family and my own I choose not to drink as I have come to learn that once I take one drink I am powerless over it and it controls me. So for me alcohol is a no no big time. Thank you so much for your blog. Special Blessings.  |
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JayKTX |
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May 29, 2008 at 12:38pm |
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| A very well thought out blog. I, too, have seen the suffering of alcoholism in my family. I, too, would wish for a society w/o alchol but I know that is impractical. I, too, dislike the taste of alcohol. But I recently had a social drink w/a family friend. I started to stay no as I usually do but I felt a check on that. This person already had a preconceived idea that I was a "religious" person and all the baggage that goes with that. I felt prompted to have a drink and I bought the friend's drink. She then began to open up to me in a way that would not have happened if she had continued to see me as a person with a list of "don'ts" and our relationship has deepened since then, even though I've not had another drink with her. She was not an alcholic, I would never enable an alcholic. I think I made the right decision with that person at that point in time. However, I commend your stand as a teacher. When my husband and I had a position of responsibility with the youth in an earlier church in a different city, we made the decision to never be seen w/anything that could even be mistaken as an alcholic drink. |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 1:22pm |
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Glenn, thank you for adding your thoughts!I agree that drinking is not inherently an issue of morality, although there are repercussions that can make it such. I suspect there are many more Christians who drink than who abstain, and there have been a few blogs on MyChurch written in praise of alcohol. My own views are still being molded, and I am not condemning! I always appreciate your viewpoint!
Tina, thank you for your testimony! Alcohol can indeed take control of us, and I commend you for not allowing that in your life! Another related point your post brings up: When we drink with others, we don't know who in the group may struggle with an alcohol problem and would have the courage to order a softdrink if someone else did so.
Jay, your story is one of maturity. I do not doubt that the Holy Spirit led you to order a drink in that particular circumstance. That's not to say we should always do so in similar circumstances, just that if we are sensitive to the moving of the Spirit in any moment, He may lead us in unexpected ways. Never to do something that is inherently sinful, but maybe to do something that is controversial within the Christian community. I have heard missionaries to France, for example, say that they drink wine regularly, and that not to do so would be completely unfitting in the French culture. Thank you for sharing your thought-provoking scenario! |
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I agree with all that you said.
As you said,
Most of us are familiar with all of these opinions and others, and we have probably adopted whichever one most appeals to our own preference for drinking. Then we justify it with Scripture. (Almost any preconceived human notion can be justified with Scripture.)
Good read. Thanks Kathy |
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I will probably have two or three margarita's a year and they are special occasions. I was raised with an alcoholic father and my brother is an alcoholic.
I do not see drinking as a sin, however, as a christian I cannot see how we can carry forth the word of God with a drink in our hands....
Great Blog |
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Della |
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May 29, 2008 at 1:52pm |
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| Thank You, Kathy! I want to make more of a comment but I have to get off my daughter's laptop. (Read Attention Mychurch bloggers) LOL |
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Sorry about that Kathy...this conclusion is the one I am referring to:
But can we then say definitively that drinking is not a sin for Christians in today's culture? I don't think so. |
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Very nicely written. You have covered pros and cons and not made anyone feel out of place in my opinion. My opinion swings both ways on the topic, depending on the situation. I see nothing wrong w.it unless you are getting drunk or it causes one to stumble.
Nice job! |
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I would have to say that yes, they were abusing the sacrament. One wonders if they would have buttered consecrated bread while they were at it. Wine should be used in the Eucharist (or Communion). The recipient doesn't have to partake of both species. If they have a problem with alcohol, they may just kiss the chalice. I don't think that changing a sacrament (ie substituting grape juice for wine) that has been in existence for almost two thousand years really solves the problem. Compassionate love must also be tempered with discipline. |
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Ed |
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May 29, 2008 at 3:56pm |
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Good blog, Kathy, well thought out. I, too, am Southern Baptist so I know where you are coming from. Through the years, however, I have found that many Christians tell you one thing and do another. It's our natural desire to look good in the eyes of friends. this disappointed me.
When I was a pastor I felt that I should not drink (or smoke) at all, you know...as an example. Some people are very unforgiving when you have fallen from a "Pius" place. I've resigned from the pastorate, but have a part time position with my church as the Ministries Director. In these last few years I've gotten to enjoy an occasional glass of local wine (Eastern NC is fast becoming a place noted for it's quality production of wine). Is this hippo-critical of me? It's certainly not a bad thing according to biblical guidelines, as you have pointed out.
It becomes a problem when it becomes a sin, that is, if it causes one to stumble or you become drunk and disorderly and cause chaos and disorder and harm to others. My wife and I are aware of the propensity for some to become addicted. We are also aware of the abuse, harm and family disfunction that an alcoholic can cause (being a pastor opens your eyes, if they haven't been opened before) and we don't want to perpetuate or even initiate a problem. So, we enjoy an occasional glass of wine together and when we expect company, we don't even offer any--unlike your friends in the Bible study you left.
Maybe tomorrow the Lord will show me some other way. Right now, I'm enjoying the pleasures of the abundant life that the Lord so graciously provides. |
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Deb...aspartaime ( Diet Soda) are toxic .....which will kill you sooner
Bibical wine was lower in alcohol content 3%-8% compqared to now 12%......The word says do not be concerend for what you eat or drink for what comes out of a man is importaint.
if you a leader at church you should refraind from drinking. there no sin from drinking but drunkards do not inheret the kingdom....we talk about drinking but never on that 5 triple cheesebuergers we eat daily.
phil |
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Eric |
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May 29, 2008 at 4:19pm |
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I've always treated the whole drinking thing tongue-in-cheek, and you can see this in my slavery blog. Your blog here is exceptionally well-written. My nonchalantness is most probably due to my personal experiences, as you say. I haven't met an alcoholic before, and my parents were occasional drinkers (a glass/can/bottle semi-weekly). Unlike you, I relish the exquisit nuances of well-made wine. I was in a social fraternity in college (before I became a Christian) which engaged in lots of underage drinking. We had some near-emergencies. I never got drunk because I didn't prefer to get drunk. Yet you'll still hear me cheer, "Beer? Bring it on! Let the party roll!" A guy in my men's group brought some moonshine to Bible study once. We all cheered (again tongue-in-cheek), although only three of us had a single shot and subsequently ignored the jug. Apparently none of us have a problem with alcohol. Perhaps my nonchalIantness means I'm just stupid. Stuff to think about. Thanks. Sanctification happens in strange ways, I'm finding. One thing I wanted to mention is the French culture. Children are drinking -- with their families -- at a very young age. To the French, wine is just like caffeinated soda. I'm not too familiar with the French, but I cannot imagine teenage French children expressing the same fascination with alcohol that your students express. What is forbidden will be explored. What is known is uninteresting. This could have been the same social climate in Jesus' day. Perhaps it's a preferred climate? I don't know enough about the French to say. There is also the aspect of genetic susceptibility to alcoholism. Some families are highly susceptible, others are immune. I wonder if alcoholism was a genetic problem in Jesus' day. Is it in France today? In a society that has many who are susceptible, I think that is a good reason to demote alcohol all-around. Like perhaps what we're seeing with MSG. Some are highly allergic, others are not at all, so MSG is removed altogether. I dunno. Random thoughts as I absorb your blog. Thanks for writing. |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 5:11pm |
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Thank you, Paulraj! Indeed the Scriptures are used and misused to justify all kinds of opinions on every subject!
Mstovall, I suspect you are a woman who has done much thinking on this subject. Thank you for sharing where it has brought you!
Della, I hope your computer is back in working order soon! Thanks for commenting!
Voice, thanks for the clarification! I'm sure you noticed I worded that line very carefully, to say I don't believe we can dismiss the possibility that drinking can be a sin, but leaving open the mirrored point of view that it is not necessarily a sin. In other words, the consumption of alcohol is not in itself sin, but the circumstances may make it so, and if we believe that, we probably must also admit that the lines are too blurred to make a clear judgment for every situation.
The differences I see between the two cultures, among others, are cars, a rebellious youth culture, drinking laws which glamorize drinking, and the understanding of abuses brought on by excess and/or addiction. I agree with you that wine in Jesus' day was not one option among many, but was likely the beverage of the culture. I doubt they wrote blogs like this one considering its morality or the ethics surrounding it. It just was.
If my logic translates to you living on tofu and water, I promise to reconsider my logic! :) I think the difference between my views of drinking and gluttony is that I am not looking at drinking as a sin in itself, but as harmful to society, which may make it a sin. Gluttony, I am assuming you are comparing because it is considered a sin in and of itself.
I like your comment "I personally contend that alcohol is an issue because we, as a church, choose to make it an issue - just as we do about women wearing dresses and makeup, KJV only, tongues, etc." That resonates deeply with me to a certain point, as I see so many non-issues that some churches hang onto as if their salvation depends upon them. And even with drinking I agree to the point that churches are too condemning of an adult's choice to have a drink. The difference I see, for the individual Christian conscious, however, is the dangers of harm to others. As long as my pearl earrings are not heavy enough to fall off and break someone's toe, they are not likely to be harmful to anyone but myself, but, as John Donne said, "No man is an island," and everyone I encounter can possibly be effected by my life choices.
I look forward to your continued thoughts on this. You are good at making me think, and as I have said many times, God is still shaping my thoughts, and sometimes uses blog commenters! |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 5:37pm |
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Thank you, Shannon! I don't mean for this blog to be condemning in any way, just to make us all think. I see few issues as all black and white, and this one has lots of gray! To drink or not to drink will not be the criteria of the separation of the sheep and the goats! In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. And in all things, love.
Thank you, Steve! You understand what I was saying!
Malleus, lol, I don't remember what kind of bread we used (but I'm sure it wasn't Southern Baptist wafers!) I can appreciate your view of using wine for the eucharist. I have not problem with that. It is just not my personal church experience. The dpirit and meaningfulness of the sacrament is equally poignant even with Welch's!
Ed. you said "I have found that many Christians tell you one thing and do another. It's our natural desire to look good in the eyes of friends. this disappointed me." Me too! If we are drinking but feel the need to hide that from our church, is that in itself also a sin? If I drink and have peace with God about it, why do I pretend at church not to drink?
You bring up another great issue that I left out, that of ministers. I commend you for opting not to drink as a pastor, because that is definitely a position that can cause others to stumble. Although the Catholics and Episcopalians drink all the time with their priests, who are at the bar wearing their collars. Depends on the culture of the church? Yes, NC is becoming a growing wine state, even in areas that are "dry" and not allowed to sell it! In my opinion your occasional glass of wine with your wife in the privacy of your own home, if you have God's peace about it and neither has any propensity toward addiction, is an example of harmless drinking. And I respect that you don't offer it to your guests!
You said "Maybe tomorrow the Lord will show me some other way. " May God continue to mold our minds and hearts to more closely resemble His!
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 5:53pm |
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Thanks, Phil, for sharing a point of view that many share! Can you really eat 5 triple cheeseburgers in one day? :)
Eric, I enjoyed your slavery blog. And I am very happy for you that you have not encountered alcoholics! One of my close friends is quite the wine connoisseur (I had to use a dictionary to spell that one!) also. He loves to discuss all the nuances of the different wines.
You are right that other cultures without drinking ages don't share our cultural glamorization of alcohol. There are still those who overdrink, but it's not a part of the youth culture any more than drinking Cokes is here. They drink it, but they don't brag about it the rest of the week! Is that kind of culture preferred? That's been debated a long time with apparently no conclusion.
The issue you raised of genetic suspectibility is another good one worthy of consideration in any alcohol discussion. I always enjoy your "random thoughts," as they are well reasoned and thought out! |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 6:08pm |
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| Ritey, the German culture is another one in which alcohol plays a major part. I make no value judgments on such cultures and think all these issues have to be evaluated by each individual and within his/her own cultural setting. I am familiar with cultures where hospitality is synonymous with offering a glass of wine. These are good points to ponder. Again, I don't think there is a black and white line we can draw for all Christians in every circumstance, but I do think there are issues here worthy of laying before God for His guidance. Thank you, Ritey, and your English is great. Not even an accent! :) |
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Gene |
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May 29, 2008 at 6:18pm |
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Kathy,
Looooooots of angles to explore on this one.
Drinking alcohol, in and of itself, is not a sin. Allowing it to interfere with your relationship with Christ, however, is a sin. That I believe is the root of the biblical statements about avoiding drunkenness.
Secondly, there's a difference between fellowship and communion.
AC 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
The church at Corinth got those two things mixed up (1 Cor 11:17-22), which is what led Paul to issue instructions on communion. Clearly, the group you were involved in also got it mixed up.
....buttered bread....LOL! Thanks Malleus.
And lastly, I'd like to emphasize your remarks about being careful about causing others to stumble when discussing what to eat and drink, I think it's best to allow each person to figure out where they really stand on this and do whatever helps them stay in a close relationship with God through Christ. If avoiding alcohol is what they need to do for their own sake, then so be it. And if another shares their joy with Christ in a drink or two, that's OK, too.
Gene
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| Kathy, Thank you for having the courage to write this blog. I personally do not drink, anymore. When I was saved the Lord immediately removed two things from my life.. drinking and cussing and I thank Him everyday for this. When I was in this world I drank and I drank a lot and I enjoyed it but with it comes many dangers, your resistance to temptation is gone your inabitions are covered up in the high and so on. The results I believe are unlimited, dui's, pregnancies, wrecked relationsip, anger and so on. Do I condemn others that drink no, it's not my place to judge, just to pray and set the example. I know there are people that may have a glass of wine or a drink or a beer but from my experience they are few. I love the one I was told about I like the taste well let me see how many of us would have spent the cost of a drink just for the taste. Let's be honest we drank to get "that feeling". Now in my life I get High off Jesus not alcohol not drugs. Praise the Lord. |
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Wow, Kathy, your a language proffesor and you didn't catch her accent? I noticed it right away..hehe...hi Rita....
As to alcohol, whew, I'm to a point where I partake privately, if for no other reason to protect myself from the Christians. I don't know any of my secular friends that would think I was wrong for having a drink, but many of my Christian friends would be, at least, disapproving (not you or Shannon Rita ;) . I will say that I'm from a very different background for this question. My Grandparents were very anti drinking, on both sides of the family. On one side they were strongly involved in the prohibition movement, on the other side alcoholic and abusive great grandparent. My father actually left home, and turned his back on Christianity because of this issue. One of the things that helped my dad come back around was me stopping into the bar at the truck stop and having a drink with him. We grew our relationship over a beer and a meal. So, even though I am careful, and careful with my quantities, I tend towards the freedom side on this issue. That being said, I will not, and am very careful not to make anyone feel bad about being on the tee totalling side of the issue, why should my liberality become bondage for them?
Oh, is there any way you can find an issue that doesn't "stir the pot" so to speak !!
HAHA... I really love your posts, keep them coming sister !!!! |
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| Well Kathy having worked in recovery programs I have seen how the progessive nature of consumption will result in death. Although some may say that I am an extremist the wino in the gutter never thought that having one drink could possibly have such dire results. When a teenager lights his first cigarette he doesn't do it with the intention of dying of cancer, but once in a cancer ward after years of nicotine consumption this same person wonders why he did not heed the obvious warnings. Sin works the same way. A little bit of this can't hurt. Why would God want to deprive me of a little pleasure? The problem is that any form of consumption only feeds the flesh. I'm sure anything can be spiritualized but the bible is clear when it says that those that are in the flesh cannot please God. I've been on both sides of the fence. The grass is definitely greener where the Spirit is. I prefer to please God and leave the alcohol to those that need to stimulate their senses. Eventually when all is said and done Jesus will have the last word. I wouldn't want to find out then that a little bit of this or that could ruin my chances of going to glory. I won't bet on a 99% chance. That one percent might be enough to land me in the lake of fire. Shalom |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 7:33pm |
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Thanks Gene! I always appreciate your wisdom!
Ritey, you sound like a wise woman who thinks and cares about actions and consequences!
Cheryl, much wisdom and passion in your comments! Thank you for sharing your experiences!
Dennis, you know I am likewise a big proponent of freedom, and not legalism! And it's been a while since I "stirred the pot!" lol I got a message from someone this week asking me when I was going to write another "insightful" blog! He hasn't shown up here yet. Maybe this one didn't make the mark! :)
Thank you, Woman of Laughter! :) |
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Kathy OUSTANDING BLOG 
I tried it when I was younger wasn't for me I did not like the way it made me feel, but I kept doing it and geting sick because my friends were doing it but I had to let it go yes it started when I was a teen, my father was alocholic and he die from it. I belive it to be true that if a family member has this addition you will be pulled in one way or other so I gave up the drinking and went to doing drugs for thirty years. Thank God I free from all of that. I was told I had addictive personality because of the abuse of alochol in my family & extended family |
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I'll drink to that!
Seriously, though you love the hot button issues don't you? It is plain to see that it is not God's will for us to be drunk with wine Eph 5:18, but to be filled (controlled) by the Holy Spirit. My personal opinon about alcohol is that it is mainly a cultural issue. In Europe, it is not even an issue, but here, we make it out to be from Hell. Paul, covered this topic well, and others have mentioned it as well, "all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable." If what I eat or drink causes my weaker brother to stumble then it is best that I abstain. It is better to have a millstone tied around my neck and be thrown into the sea than to cause a little one to stumble. However, if I were in an environment where drinking was not thought of as a vice, then I would have no trouble drinking. But, it is always much better err on the side of caution and let our moderation be known to all men. No way would I risk using my liberty to destroy another person's faith. That is immature.
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An example of drinking in two lives......
Me : I was raised SB, and oh myyyyyyyy, my daddy came home from the coal mines and had 2 beers everyday. Alcohol wasn't considered evil in my home. I remember that dad would sometimes even allow me to have a sip. I can drink one glass of wine and that's it......but as I stated above, i don't because I won't be a stumbling block.
Hubby : Was raised no church, but alcohol was the worst thing you could do in your life. He's now an alcoholic.
I believe that for him, it was the excitement of doing something that he was forbidden to do and rebeling that started him drinking. Why? Because I listened to it preached over and over and tales of his father drinking and family drinking, pre-mother in law......as a teenager I'm sure he wanted to say " Tell me I can't do this and I'll prove you wrong!" |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 8:44pm |
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Prophet, when we are witnesses to the effects of alcoholism (or anything else), it shapes our perceptions, doesn't it! Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with us! Although I am sure that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works, I have no doubt that our alcohol consumption and can be a detriment to our witness.
Thank you, MaKelly! I am so glad you have left your addictions! So many get caught and never escape, although as Prophet pointed out, none of them ever anticipate becoming addicted. They are just hanging with their friends. Thank you for sharing your personal story, and thank you for the big stars! :)
LOL Todd! There is wisdom in your words! Did you read my response to Dennis, just above your comment? Welcome! :) |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 8:49pm |
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| Cindy, such an interesting personal story that brings up questions that have been pondered and debated by all kinds of "experts" for many years. I suspect there's a lot to what you have to said! Thank you for sharing so openly here! |
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Amy |
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May 29, 2008 at 9:00pm |
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| Kathy i choose not to drink. The last time i drank was at a wedding on Jan. 11, 2003. The Lord delivered me from alcohol and i am so thankful. I too have family and so does my husband that are alcoholics and it is so sad. I believe that drinking is a sin. I dont think that a toast at a wedding or other celebration is bad, but to even get a little tipsy is to put your guard down. Scripture tells us to be alert because the devil is always on the prowl looking for someone to devour. When we drink we put our guards down. But my #1 reason for not drinking is because when our Lord and Savior returns in all of His glory, I DONT WANT TO BE DRUNK!! LOL! God bless people who do struggle with this. I pray that they will find the strength in themselves thru Jesus Christ our Lord to defeat alcoholism. |
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Grant |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:08pm |
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Dear Kathy, You are right! I have given up driving for the reasons you indicated. First, when I drive there is always the danger of getting road rage. Second, and the largest of deterrents to me personally, our driving eventually encourages others around us to drive and possibly drive dangerously. Thirdly, we are cautioned in Scripture against causing another to stumble and they could possibly become involved in road rage if I let them see me drive.
So, I have given up driving altogether just in case I cause others to stumble. Now I know that many will object and claim that there is the right use of a car, but because of our culture where too many hoon around, speed and engage in road rage, I find this too much of a stumbling block and therefore label driving a sin, which should not be engaged in by any Christians. |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:10pm |
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| Hi Amy! Thank you for your comments. LOL on not wanting to be drunk when Jesus comes back! That's a reason I didn't think of! |
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Grant |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:19pm |
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PS: Modern medical science says that a glass or two of wine a day is good for my health. As I only drink a glass every other month or so, I have determined to increase my intake. Also, hops are supposed to settle the stomach and calm the nerves. As I only drink a beer every other week or so, I have determined to increase my intake. For these reasons I have determined to set other Christians a good example and drink occasionally, encouraging them to obey Paul's injunction to take a little wine for their stomach's sake. When I do I will be sure to toast a blessing to all my teetotaling brothers and sisters. |
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Kathy |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:29pm |
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| LOL Grant! Your point is well taken! I expected someone to make your point, but not so creatively! I would agree that we cannot live our entire lives worrying about misleading someone else, but I wonder what your thoughts are on the Romans 13 passage, and I wonder if there is any anti-drinking sentiment in Christian Australia. Has drinking ever been an issue to you or to your church? Sometimes it is really not an issue. Oh, and thank you for staying off the roads, and may your stomach be most healthy! :) As always your opinion is much appreciated, even when your tongue is stuck inside your cheek! |
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Janie |
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May 29, 2008 at 11:34pm |
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| Great thought provoking blog Kathy |
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OK, Grant, that was really good!
K | |
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