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| Christian Nation, is there such a thing? |
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Something that I have been thinking about recently is the relationship between church and state. My son was assigned a research paper on the subject of US foreign relations. He explored what makes other countries like the US and what makes them dislike us as a nation. As part of his research he was required to interview a person with some intimate knowledge on the subject. He spoke with a missionary named Ralph Stice who worked in France with the Muslim immigrants and in Cote d’Ivoire (Ivory Coast) with the Muslim immigrants there. I listened in on the interview to help take notes for my son. Well part of the discussion during the interview was around the Muslim view of religion and state. Many Muslim peoples would like to see their countries ruled by religious leaders thus I come to my topic of choice today. Then yesterday I had a discussion with Voice on the subject you can read that here. Lot of writing to get to the topic. : ) It seems to me that our forefathers got it right with the separation of church and state. When I look at church history including the crusades and much of the Catholic dominance of the world throughout the middle ages, I shudder at some of the things done in the name of God or Jesus. When we as Christians attempt to force our view or our morality on a larger populace we are no different than the Muslim Imams who dominate Iran or the Taliban of Afghanistan. I some times think that our political arms of the Evangelical Christian Church do our nation a disservice by pushing religiously motivated agendas on our elected officials. We cannot legislate Christianity; it must be individually and personally attained through a relationship with God in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes it is good to be able to pray in school, but do we need laws to force this issue or can we teach our children to pray within their own heart any time any place. When we as a church force our moral judgments on a populace that is not interested what kind of witness is that to the individual? Would it not be better to individually meet our neighbors and share with them the love of Christ and cause change to our nation in a grass roots manner?
I am not saying we should not participate in our government, or take part in the elections of those who govern us, but what I am saying is be careful when seeking to implement change through forcing religion onto our government. When religion rules a nation or people, there is a great chance of terrible atrocities being committed in God’s name. I for one am glad our founding fathers instituted the separation of church and state. A nation cannot be Christian, a man or woman can be a Christian. We can work towards a nation full of Christian men and women, but our nation cannot be Christian. |
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I would think a Christian nation would be one in which the vast majority of the population were Christian -- truly Christian, not nominal only. In such a situation, it would stand to reason that the laws of the nation as well as national policies would reflect Christian values. That isn't entirely the case now in the US, and I'm not sure that it ever was. We probably all agree that Christianity cannot be legislated. When we hear people crying to "take back the country for Christ", I think that's more in reference to putting the Christian influence back into a place of prominence in civics. Regarding the fallacious "wall of separation between church and state", this statement appears nowhere in the US Constitution or any other legal document establishing our form of government. Jefferson first coined it in a letter, and since then it's been used repeatedly to misinterpret the1st Amendment. Fact is, no such wall exists. Unfortunately the myth that the Constitution has such a built-in wall is widely accepted and even claimed by judges to limit the Judeo-Christian voice in public matters. Such a shame! ps... Good blog! |
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Glenn |
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June 04, 2008 at 9:52am |
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Well Mike, I should have expected you to come by first. ; ) That is an interesting fact you have given me there, regarding the separation of church and state. I will have to look that up. I guess my fear of Christian political leaders, would be the very fact they may be nominal at best, and that might lead us down some very slippery slopes. I would rather have the freedom to believe in God and follow Christ without someone telling me how to do go about doing that.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
peace |
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Rather than look back to the Crusades or the excesses of the Catholic church in times long ago, I think we have better, more recent examples, of how religion and politics mixes. First, there was the abolitionist movement (its evangelical roots demonstrated recently in Amazing Grace). The end of slavery is a result of a vibrant mix of religion and politics. Second, there is the Civil Rights Movement (whose African American leaders were overwhelmingly clergy). The end of Jim Crow and segregation is also a result of a vibrant mix of religion and politics. Third, there is the pro-life movement. This movement has not reached its objectives . . . yet. Obviously in each of these political movements there was a corresponding effort to change people's hearts. But in a democracy the two (politics and public opinion) are closely intertwined. |
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Glenn |
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June 05, 2008 at 5:33am |
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| Thanks Chris for chiming in here. Your observations are very good. I believe that you are describing the grass roots neighbor to neighbor idea I was leading towards. I guess my concern is trying to legislate christian ideals or morals on a nation of people who do not want those ideals. We need to evangelize them, not force them to live out our ideals and morals. |
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| Glenn, I saw this blog yesterday, and did not have time to comment on it. First of all, we can't force people to be "Christian" however I would think it is not wrong to work to impose our values upon others. Everyone has their value system that is being pushed, there is big government, gay rights, ACLU, NOW, and so on and so forth. We are just one of the may voices or influences upon our world today. I think where the issue lies is with America coming to grips with the fact that we are not Christian, we are a Post-Christian society. I don't see a lot of venomous hatred coming at Christians, as much as it is that we are a nusciance to the progress of a secular society. Indeed there is great peril in having the government rule in the name of God as we all know that the heart of man is corrupt. However, there are issues of morality that we all ought to stand for and fight for if need be. Since I am an American and have certain rights as an American, I have the right to free speech, the right to vote, and cast my vote for whom I think is best. I have the right to persuade, and influence anyone of my choosing. They are free to agree or disagree, but I think Mike brought up a good point, and that is that if the people are "Christian" then the values of the country will be Christian. We are no longer a Christian Nation. Is there such a thing as a Christian Nation. I think so. Is America a Christian nation, not really, we have Christian roots and some Christian ideals, but to take the 10 commandments out of the courthouse tells me that we the people and our out of control judges make the laws and not God. |
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Glenn |
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June 05, 2008 at 9:08am |
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Todd thank you for stopping by and reading. I would agree that we as Christians in our nation are not hated, but more treated as a nuisance. It seems to me that we give those in the groups you mentioned a good point about which to rally. I also agree that we need to prayerfully consider our votes when we cast them seeking men and women who hold views that are consistent with our own. This can sometimes seem an impossible task.
Thanks for your thoughts
peace |
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| Glenn, impossible indeed! |
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Hi Glenn I agree with you around keeping Church and State separate. Jesus himself pointed out the need to 'render unto Caesar..." I'm not sure if you have read the book called Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali who grew up a Muslim woman in East Africa and the Middle East. When she moved to Holland and subsequently (miraculously) became part of their government it was her recommendation that led to legislation making all of the Netherland's schools public schools-- the Muslim schools were a travesty: girls were taught separately from boys with an inadequate curriculum and all of the most oppressive cultural dogma was propagated in these "religious" schools that were set up to extend them 'religious liberty'. |
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Glenn |
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June 15, 2008 at 3:20pm |
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Yes I did read that book. It was an amazing book and she has a totally amazing story. |
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