-"I really want to believe that the happiness of same sex couples is really the most essential piece of this.  I believe it is their fair right and bless these unions - I just wish the church did too."

This is a touchy subject, but trying to justify it based on emotions is a bit of a slippery-slope. Despite what the Government says or does, gay marriages within the Orthodox Church have can never and should never be sanctified. Lord willing, it never will.

If we as Armenians and Orthodox view Marriage as a Sacrament within the Church, and that marriage is a union of two people of the opposite sex coming together to be "one",  for the possibility and the responsibility of a husband and wife to transfigure their marriage into the reality of the Kingdom of God in Christ, then a gay-union has no valid place for santification in the Church. If the Government said today that all marriages are nullified, it would still not matter to us Christian, because marriage to us is not dependent on the State, but on the Church.

We should never hate homosexuals or see them as less than human. They have every right as any "normal" person has of living out their lives. If the Government wants to recognize these union as valid based on feelings, economics, or whatever logic (or lack thereof) they are using, so be it. Let's not let the State influence the Church because some may feel it's "their fair right" to "bless these union."

I don't know if the Armenian Orthodox Church was designed to fit me or others like me. The Church looks outside of race, sex, position in life, etc., it is designed for everyone who seeks God with an open heart. I understand what you mean though.

I would never throw the book in their faces and tell them that it's too bad our Church will not recognize their union, but let them know as I already wrote in the previous post about the position of the Church for the past 2000+ years in a respectful way.

Where did Jesus perform his first miracle? At a marriage. He must have obviously had a high regard for marriage as something sacred between the opposites to be "one."

Remember, the Church is the Bride of Christ and Christ is its Groom. This dynamic is not only spiritual, but also places the norm for married couples to imitate this Church/Christ aspect within themselves as united couples. This can never happen between same-sex couples. It is a bit like trying to clap with one hand, it's not going to work.

"There is a lot of hate expressed for gay people..."

In the New Testament, isn't it interesting that Jesus never confronts a homosexual?  They probably existed, just like child molesters, but Jesus never deals with them face to face.

Why do you think this is true?  Also, do you think homosexuals are friends with God or enemies of His?  If we look to God and the Bible to answer that question (instead of anywhere else), I think the answer is clear. But let's see how many answers people come up with here.

It brings up something else also... it's proof to me, that if Hollywood and all the media (that we are subjected to), would take child-molesters under their wing, like they have the homosexuals... we would think that they are a bunch of nice people also. Advertising works, even if it's for evil propaganda.  What needs to be held onto in times like these is the Bible, instead of all the other information outside of it. 

"Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality, sins against his own body (1 Cor. 6:18)." R...

P.S. There was an interesting program on the radio here yesterday. For anyone who wants to take a listen to it.   http://kgov.com/bel_56kbps/20080616  

Thanks, R...

Thank you Anush! This is an agenda, a way for them to be accepted into the "norm" and show us "ignorant" and "intolerant" people that such a union can be just as valid as a marriage between man and women. Let's wake up from our Utopian dreams of emotions and let our healthy fear of God help us to reject such unions within the church.

Oooooo Linda, we missed you here!  Welcome back :)

I'll add my position on gay marriage too.

I interact with gay people on a daily basis and I love them just like I love all of God's children.  I believe they deserve to be treated fairly and with compassion.  And I'm even okay with their need for marriage in the eyes of the State, BUT what I don't think is okay is for them to come to my church and ask for the sacrament of holy matrimony.  There's a good reason why there's separation of Church and State.  Church matters are sacred, guided my millenia of doctrine, and same-sex marriage is outside the boundries of what's accepted by the church. There are guidelines for participation in the sacramental life of the church.  Life in the church is not the same as life in the secular world.  The idea of having "rights" the way we think about "rights" in a secular society is completely absurd and nonsensical in the life of the church.  The approach is different.  State law and Church law reside on different spheres just as they should.        

While not being Orthodox myself, was there not a ceremony called adelphopoiesis rite, in the Orthodox Church in which two men were joined in union to one another?

wow - I'm so happy to see us discussing this. 

Like I keep mentioning, it is a big one for me because I am trying to understand if this is just a matter of a paradigm shift.  I'm sure there were many other things that we do today within the Church that was not tolerated or accepted at some point in history.  I'm no expert on State or Church, but I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for how and/or if these changes in State will create demands for changes in Church.  With each generation we are becoming more and more accepting of one another, regardless of religion, gender, race or sexual orientation and at the same time we are getting further and further away from the Church.  I'm trying to figure out why.

Thanks Anush and Suzie for posting and sharing.  Vartan, I wouldn't call your opinions ignorant and intolerant.  I think we're all striving to figure out what is right and wrong and we all have our own approaches.   

Hey WYATT,

Right on brother. Homosexuality should be re-criminalized. That's loving your brothers and sisters so they avoid going to hell, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites (1 Cor. 6:9)."

I'll stick with what God says.  The birth canal and bowel canal are not the same.

Just a couple of comments:

I really think that the government should do its job and govern, not make moral decisions of what is right and wrong. There are laws that separate church and state and it seems that the government isn’t willing to stick to its own rules which it created. Basically, the government is telling the church what marriage is, so where is the separation between church and state?

Secondly, homosexuality is a sin. And sin is sin; there really aren’t various degrees of sin, (except for one). By putting one sin on a pedestal inadvertently makes people not to feel bad about their own sins. Technically, all sins are a crime against God the only difference is that there are those who confess their “crimes” and seek “rehabilitation” with God and there are those who don’t.

Malleus, if you have questions about Armenian Orthodoxy I would recommend asking Fr. Vazken, who is a priest. I would suggest refraining from telling us what we believe and don’t believe.

Ludwig, I don't believe I am telling anyone what to believe.

And if I have any questions about Orthodoxy I will just walk down to the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute right down the street  from me and have a face to face.

What is this?....The my Orthodoxy is better than yours debate?...Come on now!

-Go All Saints!!!!

 Linda jan, I don't know if you know what has been going on in the Episcopalian Church in the last few years due to the liberal tendencie of their new clergy, but many within the church feel it will cease to exist if reforms are not placed to bring back their conservative roots back in order.

Vartan - Blaming the possibility of the Episcopal Church ceasing to exist on 'liberal tendencies' is futile. 

Let's get real!

OK, so your sources should get real too. 

I just think they're scapegoating the issue, that's all.  The diversity of a Church should never be overlooked.  I don't think Jesus wanted us to pick and choose like that.  We're all in this together.  

Ludwig has it right in that the Bible calls for a separation of jurisdictions between church and state. The problem with gay marriage is that the state should not be sanctioning marriages, period. Recording them, yes, sanctioning and/or granting rights on such a basis, no. The state is encroaching into the jurisdiction of the church.

The real problem isn't gay marriage, it's marriage. The gays argue that they are no different than the straights, and that's pretty much true. But such a statement is not a reason for celebration because equality has been reached. Rather, it is a reason for dust and ashes, for lamenting and repenting of the unrepentant sin that sucks the life out of our families and our nation.

So, why is God so concerned about marriage? Because the marriage relationship is the most like our relationship with God. Both are covenant relationships, relationships that are based upon promises. And promises are a very delicate matter. When any one promise is broken, other promises are easier to break. And the more promises we break, the easier it becomes to break other promises.

In fact, our whole society is built upon the strength and integrity of our promises. A dollar bill is nothing but a promise that it can be exchanged for a dollar's worth of something else. Checks are nothing but promises that when the check is taken to a bank it can be exchanged for actual money. Credit cards are based upon the promise to pay, and the financial mess we are currently experiencing is all about broken promises. Ultimately, broken promises will destroy a culture. For one thing, the banking industry cannot exist without fidelity to promises.

And marriages are not between a man and a woman, at least not biblically. They are between a man, a woman and God. God is very much a part of marriage. And God invented marriage, so He knows what He's talking about. Real marriage cannot exist apart from God's involvement.

I am taking the lead PARoss.  This is my blog, so I'll ask the questions.  What do those things mean to you? 

It matters little what they mean to me. What matters is what they mean to God. That is or should be the position of every Christian. To ask the question about what something means "to me" is to salt the context with relativity because when you don't like what I say, you just say, "Well, that's not what it means to me," as if meaning doesn't have objective reality, as if meaning and ultimately truth are about what I like and don't like.

Kathy is right, this issue (and every issue) will ultimately turn on what the Word of God says and what it means. But Kathy is wrong in thinking that "the church" is a unified whole or that it is the last to change. The Civil Rights Movement, for instance, was first endorsed and encouraged by our Christian churches (before it capitulated to politics and the media). Many, if not most of the great cultural changes of history were first hammered out in the churches.Culture always follows in the train of the churches, and that is the major problem. Go to the library and see if this isn't the case. But never mind the facts.

So, love.  1John 4:20  If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

 2 John 1:6  And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Love is the promise -- and the commitment to keep that promise all of one's life -- to care for (not just emotionally, but physically) someone enough to tell them the truth, and do them good all of their lives. Now, the question is what is truth and how do we know what is good. How can we tell someone the truth if we don't know it? How can we do people good if we don't know what good is?

Oh, sorry. Do you want to ask them?

Kathy, several churches have already apologized for taking a biblical postition regarding homosexuality, and are feverishing working to right what they have mistakenly thought to be wrong. Again, you are correct that the glass is not only dim, but much heated and steamy confusion has fogged the mirror. So, while it is true that additional churches will capitulate to the political correctness police, God does not make apologies. What is currently misperceived as social progress will come to be universally understood to be the historical momentum of the Fall.

The issue is not whether you are wrong or that I am wrong, but that we come to see where we are wrong and how we are wrong, so that by the grace of God we can grow in righteousness, always knowing, of course, that of all the righteousness that there is in this perishing world is not ours but Christ's. Perhaps we can learn from one another, as iron sharpens iron.

I know that it would be of help to me, not to just tell me that I'm wrong, but to point out exactly where I am wrong so that together we may learn what is more right. This is the path of sanctification, is it not? Are we not to be engaged in mutual edification and sanctification, defined as growth and maturity to the measure of the stature... (Ephesians 4:11-14)?

If I have offended you or anyone else, I apologize. My intent is not to offend but to commend Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, but who is also a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. But if people are offended by the clear and certain teaching of Scripture regarding sin, they are offended by God not me. I know that it is hard for many people to think of Jesus Christ, meek and mild, and the Lord of love, to be offensive in any way. But that it not what the Bible teaches. Jesus was crucified precisely because he offended people just like us. To fail to see this is to fail to understand the Bible.

There are still several questions on the table. Let's talk about them.

Linda, I understand your commitment to Postmodernism (the your truth/my truth thing). But in love, I need to let you know that philosophical and/or theological relativity are not biblical, not in any sense, ancient or modern, and not according to the Orthodox tradition either. It is more akin to paganism, and Scripture has opposed it in its Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Modern and Postmodern forms.

Here's the rub. According to Scripture (see the verses from 1 & 2 John above) we are called to love, not according to our own whims, but according to God's will. And according to God's will we are to be in unity with the Spirit and one with another in Christ, that is, in agreement regarding both practice and theory (theology). That's the biblical model.

I'm sure that you think that you are being loving and tolerant by clinging to a broad-minded, pagan understanding of love and truth, and I am being hateful and intolerant by articulating the narrow-minded, biblical teaching about love and truth. But in the end, your broad-minded, pagan understanding and the practice thereof leads to death and damnation. The whole point of the Bible, and its eons-long struggle in this world has been the debunking of the very position you are promoting.

Scripture teaches that there is only one way of salvation, by grace through faith in Christ alone -- and that faith is not simply a belief thing, but is a life style thing. It's not simply a matter of the head, nor is it simply a matter of the heart, but it is also a matter of the body, of obedience to the will of God.

Consequently, if you persist in promoting and living according to the your truth/my truth Postmodern, pagan and unbiblical thing, we are most assuradly not heading towards the same goal. Please understand that I am not out to "get" you, or to show you up, or to show myself off. My purpose is not to harm you or your friends, but to simply alert you to something that you are not seeing in the hope that you will avoid a tragedy that lies before you (before us all, actually), so that you may live a long, blessed and fruitful life in Christ.

Though I don't know you, I believe that you deserve to know God's truth. I even think that you know it already, that God and His Word are in your DNA, but that you (we all) have been beguiled by one of the best marketing programs in history.

Linda, I'm not criticizing you, but I am criticizing liberalism and will continue to do so because it is a cancer upon Christianity. It is an imitation Christianity that turns faithfulness on its head. Critical thinking is important. Consider what Jeremaih said about the heart: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). The whole point of regeneration is the establishment of a new heart, God's heart, not yours. We are not to live our lives according to our own hearts (our own desires and/or preferences). Rather, we are to live like King David and be people after God's own heart. We are not called to look inside ourselves, but to look to Christ and to His Word. That is where life is found. As Paul said, "Do not be wise within yourselves" (Romans 12:16). If you disagree with what I am saying, please interact with the issues, show me your reasonsing, show me where I am wrong -- don't just "dis" me.

Kathy, You are indeed an intelligent and sensitive woman. But we are not saved by our intelligence or sensitivity. I am asking you to have an intelligent conversation with me. Let's discuss issues, not personalities. I have not called anyone any names. The comments of mine that you don't like have been about ideas and issues, not personalities. On the other hand, you have not engaged any of the issues or questions I have raised, but have denounced me as a closed minded bigot who is unable to listen to your concerns. But I have been listening very carefully to what has been said on this blog by you and others, and have demonstrated how Scripture does not support the liberal perspective.

And, yes, I have already made up my mind that Scripture does not support liberalism. How do I know? I am a recovering liberal who has advanced degrees from liberal schools in liberal subjects in liberal cities (Berkeley, CA). I grew up in a liberal home where homosexuality was supported, and my mother was a liberal church woman who was making great strides in our liberal church. She was the first woman to do a number of things at that church, i.e., preach, hold the highest office in the church, etc. I went to a liberal seminary and have served several liberal churches. Thought you might be interested since you know nothing about me.

Kathy, you're such a blessing.  Thanks for laying it out like that!