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| An Eye Opening Experience... |
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Ok, so I don't get out much--at least not to other churches. Tonight I met up with some dear friends at a local church and I couldn't believe my eyes!
I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars I was looking at--and I never left the Youth ministry wing. Flat screens with wii, Mac kiosks with wi-fi, billiard tables, leather sofas (6 that I recall) and a children's complex that rivals the best indoor playgrounds I've ever seen. Add a five star cafe and coffee bar, and gee--I don't think I've seen this much sensuality in one place ever--much less a church building!
Do you think my use of the word 'sensuality' seems out of place? Isn't that what it is, when you walk into a place and you are immediately drawn to the intoxicating appeal of culture driven accoutrements? I can play here, I can relax here, I can eat here, I can have fun here--see, what really bothered me was that my first impression was not 'I can worship here'. In fact, my second thought was 'what is worshiped here?' I'm a little blown away by it all--I've heard of such churches, seen them on TV, but I've never been inside one until tonight.
Is any one bothered that 'the lure' of the gospel has been replaced by the lure of the wii, the HD screens and the latte? Is this sound stewardship of the finances of the Kingdom? Church of America, I think we are in more crisis than we care to admit.
I thought this was about faith--about the Word of God, about an incorruptible Kingdom. I thought Christianity was about God's will for man--but all I saw tonight was man's will for God. Instead of being wowed, I was disconcerted--is this not the very epitome of why God said 'man cannot build a temple that is worthy of me...'?
For centuries man has attempted to turn the church into a bigger and better 'sheep trap'...has it ever worked? Be careful, be wise....be honest. When you walk into 'the church' what are you really seeking?
Do you feel your 'God experience' should be entertaining? Amusing? Comfortable? Should it cater to all your senses...fulfill and satisfy your flesh? Should you leave feeling motivated to succeed in life? Are you satisfied because 'the experience' is worth the money you put in the offering? Are you tithing into wi-fi and latte because it perks your spirits or are you truly yearning for a broken and contrite spirit?
I'm not passing judgement on those of you who attend church in places like this, I'm simply stunned...I just don't get it...
There are people starving for the gospel and in dire need of physical assitance to live ...and our churches are spending millions on...this? Yikes! Who wants to be first in line to explain that one to the Creator of the Universe...can I see some hands?
So...even if it's neccesary to gather several thousand people into one church, what constitutes the line of demarkation? Where will the 'entertainment' mentality be challenged to seek abstinence from the temptations of the flesh--when the church is feeding it? Can't I just feed my flesh at Disneyland or do I really need to nurture it in a Christian environment every Sunday as well? How will my kids know the difference between what is to be reverenced in holiness for a lifetime, and past times that are enjoyed momentarily if they are all mixed together in Sunday School?
Perhaps my church is behind the times--maybe that's not so bad. Maybe it's more real. I don't get to play the wii or recline over latte on a comfy leather sofa. I have to see my Pastor close up--not on HD from several thousand feet. He can look in my eyes twice a week and know if I've been bad or good. I can count on that--there is no 'blending into the crowd', no sneaking in and out with your sin in tact. Yahshua doesn't have to compete with playstation and endless brightly colored slides for the hearts of children. I know the difference between 'the world' and 'His presence' because when I walk in my church it is evident. The worship is not about making me feel good, it's about finding my way to Him and touching His heart and when I leave church, it's knowing with deep satisfaction that He and I have connected and will remain connected for eternity. When the message comes forth--there may be times it's hard to hear, because something in me needs to change. I don't get to keep the world and serve the Kingdom; I have to choose whom I will serve.
Is that so bad?
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| To add a comment to "An Eye Opening Experience..." |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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| Hmmm, I believe kids have a hard enough time seeing God, w/o all those distractions. It's ironic, in our efforts to show kids the Lord we can end up distracting them from him! Thanks for writing this Birdie, awesome blog! |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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Birdie, please accept one big hug from me. I so agree. It breaks my heart to know that many of us still don't get it. In other parts of the world people are literally dying to preach and hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ... there are so many lost souls out there and yet here in the US many churches have displaced God for the opportunity of having their own lil kingdoms here on earth. This is why we must continue to pray. Pastor Aminata |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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| Birdie...The same thing happened here in sheffield. We started off with a humble pastor who had a vision for Gods people...the vision got distorted and a huge Mega-Centre was built. Before that the "Street" people were brought in and given free tea and coffee. After the centre was built they were not encouraged in and if they did come in they paid....I left just before all of this happened because I saw it coming!! I have not had a regular church since. Great blog...Lets remember that the Lord over all of the earth was born in a........stable! |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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| Birdie: I have mixed emotions about it. I went to a church similar to that when I was in transition looking for a place that God would have me. As I approached the Building there were the metal Italian deck tables w/ umbrellas outside, and as I entered they had there own coffee bar. It smelled good but it seemed so weird and out of place for me. The service was slick and perfect. The music was great, not a lot of dead time the music was upbeat and joyful. The choir was smiling (which was unusual) the gospel was presented clearly and I could find no fault in it. Then, it was over. No invitation, no explanation etc...1 hour all nicely neat and wrapped. I have mixed emotions about all of this. There are some that say, God deserves the best and if the world has it to attract our teens and our young adults why can't we? It is not like it is all bad. The Temple was certainly over the top. Yet, I find myself worshipping in a place with low to moderate income people, used metal chairs that have seen better days, a rag tag choir which lets me sing and I love to worship but would not say I have a great voice. Where our services are anything but slick. I can't say we are better or we are more in line with God, but I really do understand what you are talking about. I had one of my professors teach me, "What you win them with you win them to." If you give them a hotdog to come you are going to have to give them a hotdog to keep them. We have come a long way since hotdogs! LOL Like it or not our culture is changing and that church reflects the culture. The church needs to change we can't do church like our Fathers did and expect to reach the kids, or can we? I don't know the answer to that. One thing I know is that Jesus much be preached, the gospel must be presented, hope must be given, and love must abound. If that takes place on a leather sofa then I guess that is OK. We'll see in the end, but I do see that we have so much and we consume it upon ourselves. It is a good blog and certainly something we all need to search our hearts over. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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I would say I have mixed emotions also...it all depends on the purpose of those things. If they are being used to make the church feel important or a social gathering then I don't agree. But if they are being used as bait or lures to draw the fish in then I say use them.
We are called to be fishers of men, men & women for that matter are drawn by different things. I believe God can use the things that they are drawn by to bring them unto Himself, but ultimately The Truth, The Way, The Life, The WORD must be preached! Without the truth of the Word and the working of the Holy Spirit bringing them to Christ what you have is nothing more than social/gathering place. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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| You have said a lot here. I so agree. It is not important what the church looks like...if God is not present there, then it is not a church. "Church" can be held in a home, a backyard, a church building, on the beach...you name it, as long as God is present, and two or three are gathered together in His name, it is church. I would never wish to belong to a large church where you get lost among the numbers, but prefer my smaller church where I know most of the people who attend. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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This is good Mrs. R - I think that each ministry is has a specific mandate. That is to further the Kingdom of God. How each ministry does it is going to vary. Some of these mega churches that have the finances and ability to offer such ministry tools are doing so because they have IT to do it with. Now we were just blogging on MOTIVES the other day and motives will always be a questionable thing when it comes to humanity. I think we have to be careful how we look at things. I am sure that someone from a mega-church could come to one of our services and leave just as concerned about why we do not have such things for the youth and children or even in our main auditorium. I think I stand in the middle of this and believe that there should be a balance. However, I will say that just because there is lights and glamour does not mean there is no Spirit. Worship is just that: My Worship and I should be able to reach the throne room in my living room, the main auditorium (with or without all the fixings), or any other place. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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Thanks to all of you for sharing your hearts here! There are so many great comments and points to think about I'm not sure where to begin...honestly, I didn't think there would be too many people who shared my point of view and my concern. It's nice to know I'm not alone in questioning this.
I think it's important to note that the church where The Agreement Center currently meets boasts a sizable congregation of their own--and it is a huge building. The facilities are very nice and there are adequate facilities for the kids and the teens including a playground outside and arcade games in the youth room--but it is not over the top by any means. It is reasonable. And we do have a little coffee bar where we serve refreshments before and after service which is conducive to allowing time for bonding between all of us. The building is designed to accommodate the things that are important--worshiping God and building relationships with one another. There are not really any distractions, nothing that screams "feed my me-isms".
Plumbline and Josh--I am all for programs that involve feeding the character of teens and adults, as Barvubuela mentioned. But Stuart's story bears out a sad and undeniable truth--we insulate ourselves with creature comforts and the result is a heart too crusty to care about the least of those who live in our midst. So long as we don't have to see them, we don't have to be stretched to accept people who will carry us out of comfort zones. But comfort zones are deadly places where a more insidious sin thrives--selfishness. That is a garment of the world and as the church, we should be shedding it not promoting it!
Mike- It's not the kids who are choosing that--although I'm sure they are having fun. It's the parents who are choosing. Kids who are given experiential learning in church grasp and apply biblical concepts easily--and they have just as much fun doing it, and I think it sticks better than 'entertainment'. Some of my most memorable childhood experiences came through a Sunday school teacher who took us to visit other children who were sick, and to Mexico to help needy families. At the age of nine, I learned to love others as Christ loves me, through those experiences. No super slides or playstations required to make an impact that has lasted a lifetime.
Pastor Aminata--hug accepted and returned!
Brother Todd--Your story about the nice neat packaging of the spiritual experience was sort of what we encountered last night. Although it was evident that we were visitors, my daughter had to make the first approach in order to engage regular members in conversation. When she later mentioned that this made her feel 'unwelcomed', one of our friends explained that in a church as big as that one, you have to make your own way in the crowd. It saddens me to hear that as an acceptable concept in church.
Dr. Thomas--perhaps we are not behind the times, but ahead of them. I foresee a time when the glitter of these things will fade and tarnish if people continue to leave the church as empty as they came in. We will thirst after God and offer the wellspring of His presence to those who are parched and empty. There is a Kingdom, incorruptible and pure, a love not of this world that quenches the soul and leads us onward! We will be faithful to that Kingdom.
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| June 17, 2008 |
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My fear in this type of church is that it's a safe place, members need not go anywhere else, they can play, get coffee, everything......right there in the church. So, who isn't being reached in a coffee shop on the other side of town? Who isn't being shown God at the arcade? Who isn't being visited because everyone is visiting at the church? Who isn't be witnessed to at the local bookstore?
As far as the kids go......they should go to church to experience God, any entertainment after that is a bonus......but God first! The kids will tell others "Come to our church, we have everything".....I would much rather hear a kid say " Come to church and listen what the youth pastor is telling us about God, it's awesome!"
I have been to churches that have everything and I've felt God there too. But, I still worry that they can become too comfortable. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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Insightful blog Birdie. Where is the balance? Where is the real treasure?Your last paragraph just so awesomely sums it up:
Perhaps my church is behind the times--maybe that's not so bad. Maybe it's more real. I don't get to play the wii or recline over latte on a comfy leather sofa. I have to see my Pastor close up--not on HD from several thousand feet. He can look in my eyes twice a week and know if I've been bad or good. I can count on that--there is no 'blending into crowd', no sneaking in and out with your sin in tact. Yahshua doesn't have to compete with playstation and endless brightly colored slides for the hearts of children. I know the difference between 'the world' and 'His presence' because when I walk in my church it is evident. The worship is not about making me feel good, it's about finding my way to Him and touching His heart and when I leave church, it's knowing with deep satisfaction that He and I have connected and will remain connected for eternity. When the message comes forth--there may be times it's hard to hear, because something in me needs to change. I don't get to keep the world and serve the Kingdom; I have to choose whom I will serve.
That is where the real treasure lies and the challenge is how to keep it from being buried underneath the “sensual world” no matter how large or small your church is. Thanks for sharing that with us. |
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| June 17, 2008 |
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Cindy Lou--Yes, I have the same uneasy feeling about that, in fact we sort of discussed that this afternoon.
If the church begins to cloister itself, how can it be salt and light? And that is certainly the temptation that will no doubt rear it's ugly head. Just within 10 miles of where I live (Dallas/Ft. Worth--the Mega-Church capital of the world) I can avail myself of the fitness facilty, swimming pool, game room, coffee shop, book store, park, sports complex, concert arena, wi-fi cafe, school, playground, day care, and believe it or not dry cleaner without stepping out of church owned Christian territory.
A friend of mine and I visited some strip clubs a few months ago--we went in with breakfast goodies and introduced ourselves to the performers and managers before the clubs opened for business. I was elated to find how open and receptive the girls and the managers were to our visits. We were not turned away anywhere, and in fact prayed with several people in each club--they were thirsty for what we had to give them! And we know that people are healed in our shadow--this is what we are called to, not comfy leather sofas sipping Sunday morning Latte.
The Messiah warned us that if we hide our light under a bushel, or if we loose our 'saltiness', we are of little use to the Kingdom. It is way more comfortable to have someone spoon feeding you than it is to feed others, to have a sense of 'belonging' than it is to take what I have into dark places. Do you have to go to strip clubs or back allies where the crackheads hang out? No--you can go to safe places if it makes you feel better. BUT--if you have the guts to go, you will experience a far more eye opening revelation of the Kingdom than you will ever find in the church coffee shop. |
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| June 18, 2008 |
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Blenda--wow, it saps my spirit just reading of the tasking involved in the building of the world's first mega-church! I wonder how they felt during the building--if they ever longed to step back and reclaim the simplicity of relationship with God.
I agree with Shannon. The Babel element cannot be ignored, in fact that came through with a keen sense of clarity to me as I was writing this blog so I believe that is the Holy Spirit quickening a truth here. Be careful what we build.
Melxjoe you are so right! In any church of any size, we can elevate sensuality--we are creatures of flesh and the flesh wants to be fed. Through God's Word, we are admonished to crucify the flesh--it is essential to understand that the motive of the flesh and the motive of the church should stand diametrically opposed or we have failed. There is no grey area there--as Dr. Thomas said, the word of God should be cutting that away from us. Thank you for sharing your insights, you brought tears to my eyes! |
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| June 18, 2008 |
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Good point Mrs. R. |
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| June 18, 2008 |
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Ohhh, Shannon! When you and TK get relocated, you two will have partners in outreach! We can put your gifts to work in a million ways for the Kingdom!
My friend and I also collaborated on an article that was published in the newspaper two weeks ago bringing attention to the plight of the homeless in downtown Ft. Worth. They are trying to raise money to buy a section of property commonly know as the Church on the Slab--because it's really just a concrete slab near the railroad tracks and the homeless have been holding church there for years. The property must be sold and the homeless may loose the only church where they are welcomed. It was an awesome to be called to collaborate on that story with my friend.
She is my partner in street ministry and a writing buddy--I used to have to wait on people to see who would hit the streets with me--but then the Lord arranged our connection through a writing contest of all things. So we traveled to Detroit together last summer as virtual strangers and we've been doing street ministry together ever since. :)
My Father has His ways of building relationships that cannot be broken between those that are truly His--those bonds are forged through acts of love, working side by side for His purposes. He brings a unity of spirit to those who are doers and laborers that those that only hear the word never really understand. Those relationships are our reward here on the planet, and once you have experienced that level of unity and bonding within the Kingdom, it doesn't matter where you meet or what your church can offer--in terms of a building or little materialistic perks--those things are never as satisfying as putting on the gospel and walking it with likeminded friends.
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| June 18, 2008 |
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Dr.--Please don't ever mess with the sword! You are an expert at cutting assunder the flesh and revealing the things of Spirit. And you are funny--but often we are laughing along with you at our own silliness. You have a beautiful knack for helping us laugh through the surgery! We come through it time and again with less flesh and a deeper understanding of what is really important to God--more often than not less of me is the requirement. lol!
Blenda--yep, He says "I will dwell with the sons of Israel" . With the people, in the people--His spirit cannot be contained in a temple, but he will make his habitation with those who are of a broken and contrite spirit, those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The hearts of men is His dwelling--and in the acts of those who walk by His Spirit and by His word, His heart is revealed. It has very little, if nothing at all to do with multi-million dollar structures.
Consider this:
"But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name."
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." --Justin Martyr
Quite a difference in the mindset of the early church and what it is has become today in westernized cultures. What you said bears repeating, Dr.-- "The creature comforts of the system creep in and few even notice when or how they come in. Let us be wise as serpents and gentle as doves."
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| June 18, 2008 |
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Birdie, I admire your courage in sharing your heart with us and then enduring the comments, favorable and not so favorable. I agree that our culture is changing and constantly demanding to be satisfied. However culture is just that, "culture", and it will forever be demanding and selfish. The flesh is never satisfied. We must guard the truth of God's Word and make sure that we are obeying the mandates of that Word which never changes and is forever settled in heaven. Thanks for the blog. Trina |
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| June 19, 2008 |
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Wow Shannon! I love stories like that! I think that Pastor Aminata made such a great point when she said that many churches have displaced God in order to build their own Kingdoms on earth--it does feel like there are two different approaches here--one that takes the stance that we need to 'help God' be God, and the other that wants to 'let God be God'. When things like that happen, there is no doubt that God doesn't need any 'help'--he just uses a willing vessel.
Hi Trina! I'm so glad to hear the thoughts of others on this...it's a perplexing issue to me that just makes no sense. I think it's way too easy to justify this by cultural standards...
I guess I am niave enough to believe that 'the church' should stand for something the world cannot offer. I believe that an altruistic expression of life, exemplified before others, has a far greater impact on the world around us than any amount of cultural bling can produce.
Deeper than the desire to blend into the culture, there is a yearning in every human being to be loved and accepted. What if we just narrowed the focus down to that one element of human desire and concentrated soley on that? If we just did that one thing really well, I wonder what would change?
We are, as Plumbline and Josh pointed out, to be fishers of men. But why not use your own heart, filled with the Holy Spirit as the lure instead latte and wi-fi? Why is it acceptable to replace the human element that is so neccesary for the transmission of faith with expensive playground equipment and HD TV?
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| June 19, 2008 |
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Ok, another point that came to my heart is that these things are used to "get" people into church. I can see good, but also bad in that. Good is that they hear the Word there.
But, on the other hand.....I can't find in the Bible anywhere, where going to church saves you. Jesus walked among the people, we should too. Even in small churches we get comfortable inside those walls......the lost are outside of them ( and yes, there are lost inside them).
Another thing with me is I have family in a Mega Church, and from going there I know one thing. I am comfortable in my smaller church, where I know everyone. I , also, play piano and have an upright grand piano that hasn't been restored yet.....piano and singing is an outlet for me, so when I need that, I go down to our church and play and sing. I get to play a beautiful grand piano, I use the sound system to practice solos.....anytime I want to in the sanctuary. Wondering if I would be allowed to do that in a Mega Church? I don't know. |
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| June 19, 2008 |
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Mrs. R I think for this day and time the latte, wi-fi, the expensive playground equiptment and the HDTV are the lures. Here is a story that I was told (I will tell it like I remember it): The was a man who was in the ocean and his boat had been destroyed so he was just hanging on a small piece that was left. Believing that God would save him he prayed and did believe. So a few days pasted and then a ship that was passing by spotted him and tried to rescue him however, the man sent them away saying that he was waiting on God, because he believed with everything within him that God would deliver him. So a few more hours had gone by and a fishing boat stopped by and threw him a rescue float but the man refused again and sent them away. Eventually the man drowned and when he got to heaven he asked God why didn't He save him like he believed He would? God's response was: "I tried twice, with the ship and then a fishing boat, you keep sending me away."
I think sometimes we have to step back and really try to see what God is trying to give us to use. Maybe these lures that seem to be to "fleshy" are our answered prayers. In my book, "How to cope with answered prayer" I state that prayer is very important however, we must be ready to get our prayer answered. We pray for stuff and when the prayer is answered sometimes we do not know how to handle it.
I think sometimes WE want to be a BIG part of a small thing (because it makes US feel good and important) instead of being a small part of a BIG (GOD) thing (where we are not the center of attention or the focus). Mega churches got to be mega churches because they did something right. Every church has a mission what is our churches mission? (Sometimes your churches mission is not for everyone.) |
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| June 19, 2008 |
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Josh-I think if the motive for being a part of something in any church is that WE want position or recognition, whether it be a small church or a large church--then obviously that person is still at a certain level of immaturity in their Christian walk. At some point leadership should be a natural transition to the mature Christian--not driven by title, position or recognition--but by Christ's command to 'love one another as I have loved you.' Oh-- did you missthe training where we talked about our church's mission?
I agree Shannon, I'm not basing mega churches--I'm just wondering where we draw the line on culture driven church models and return to the simplicity of the plan that has worked for a couple of thousand years. And if that plan works, why do this oulandish stuuf? |
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| June 19, 2008 |
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| I most definitely missed that training. But the whole loving one another is a good mission. |
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| June 19, 2008 |
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Amen Dr. Thomas!
Be careful! Be careful of the evil one who comes to sow tares and to choke out and destroy the beauty of that which I have sown. You belong to Me! I have redeemed you for My purposes, to do work that will produce glory for My name’s sake. I have redeemed you with My poured out life that others might live because of My life in and through you.
Do not quench the spirit of the living Elohim, Who has redeemed you as His dwelling place, to draw others into His kingdom. Allow My love of which I am the fullness therein, allow My love to motivate you, in word and deed that others might know the One who is love. HalleluYAH!
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| June 19, 2008 |
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| A church can be extravagant or humble, large or small, it doesnt matter. People will come back if they feel welcomed, cared for and ministered to. |
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| June 20, 2008 |
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Olivia-Welcome to the discussion! Thanks for sharing your insights. You hit the nail on the head! It's all about the hearts of people. If we want to harvest hearts for the Kingdom, then we give our heart first. I see from your profile that your own church is quite involved in reaching out to people in your community--that tells me that the people in your church are compassionate and loving. That's what matters! When we approach others with a willingness to take on their needs, lives are changed! The Word says we are to bear one another's burdens.
Josh--You are so funny! I know you were at the HUG Training learning to be HIP--tell the truth!
Please tell me you weren't among those that snuck out the back, Jack! Was that you sleeping on the sofa in the coffee bar??? hahaha! ....
Please refer to Page 2 in your hand out:
Our Unique Identity
The Agreement Center’s Mission:
Worship in Spirit and in Truth; in Life, in Unity, in Community.
Maaaan....Maybe I should've given a pop quiz just to see who was listening...lol! I thought if I wrote it in bold blue letters and gave it to everybody to take home with the Pastor sitting right there...they might get it. Mia Culpa. hahaha! You know I love you anyway! 'Loving one another' falls under the catagory of 'in Unity, in Community. :) Ok--Latte for you with a double shot of expresso in the next training and you get to teach it!
I'm not at all saying that mega churches are doing something wrong. Churches that are discipling others in the Word--to the point where the impact brings salvation, change and fruitfulness, are following the model that we were given by Christ and exemplified by the fathers of the early church. This is the fruit that will be evident in the church that is truly worshipping in spirit and in truth; in life, in unity and in community. As Olivia pointed out--the trappings and the numbers are insignificant to hearts that are being touched.
Cindy Lou-It is true that sometimes our gifts can be swallowed up in the slick settings of a well crafted, program oriented church, and often that is part of the mechanism that drives the numbers in mega-church settings. It is a neccesity when you are tending to thousands versus hundreds or handfuls. In studying the administrative tools used by mega churches, I have found that many adopt the same standard as a normal business when searching out candidates to drive the machine. Systems are in place to insure 'best practice'.
This means you will more likely than not complete an application, and be interviewed and evaluated by a department head before you are allowed to contribute to ministry efforts in any significant way.
Can you 'just volunteer'? In most mega-churches, you will be encouraged to attend a series of classes designed to help you gain an understanding of your unique attributes to the community--then you will be encouraged to seek out 'your place' in one of many, many programs. From there, a ministry leader will take you under their wing--via a letter suggesting you attend this group or that activity which you may have previously expressed an interest in, during the written evaluations you contibuted to during the classes you attended. Or, you can just show up for church on Sunday, enjoy latte in the cafe and go about your life. No pressure, because you are a small part of a big thing and there are hundreds like you.
In a smaller more intimate church setting--that is not the case. Every one has a specific gift and it is more readily put to work. Smaller churches are more intimate because you aren't wading through crowds--if all you do is show up for church on Sunday, you might squeek by--but others need your help and you will not feel as comfortable after the honeymoon period if you continue to choose not to contribute your unique giftings in some way. You will never feel woven in, in a smaller church unless you give something of yourself.
Does that make one better than another? No, it's just that these are very different ways of doing 'church'. One holds much accountability and the other allows annonimity--there again, I think it's maybe a different level of spiritual maturity, or even a yearning for acceptance and accountability that causes one to seek fellowship in a more intimate church setting.
Dr. Thomas- I love what you said, 'The more of His presence that is evident in us the more people will desire to come. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit must draw someone to salvation.' That eliminates the need for 'lures' of any kind--that places the heart of the matter squarely back on faith, and personal relationship with God. That makes us accountable for what we do with what we have been given, doesn't it?
Now it's no longer a culture issue, a money issue or a 'bling' issue--now it's personal.
How much of His presence living in me do I dedicate daily to my nieghbor, my co-workers, my family, my friends? How much effort do I give to allowing the Holy Spirit to work in and through me toward their salvation?
Blenda-HalleluYah! Thank you for being an obedient vessel to bring His prophetic instruction into this conversation!
Thank you Elohim, for your light and your path! HalleluYAH!
This word brings me to tears! What can man do or build that can ever overshadow His love???
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| June 20, 2008 |
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| Hi Shannon! I'm enjoying it too! I think everyone's discussion here is very valuable. It seems we are all thinking a little more deeply about what we do and why we do it. |
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| June 20, 2008 |
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Yes, Mrs. R I was there at the HUG training. Which brings me to ask this question. Is Worship really ALL we need to be doing? How about the people that walk into the church and can't enter into the worship because they can not get past the hurt, rejection, abandonment, abuse etc...
What if it is as simple as giving a HUG to someone that will free them enough to get into the worship. I do agree that if you got the lures but never put the fish into the boat them what was the point of hooking the fish. How about the people that just sit through our worship with blank stares. Are they being rebellious or could it be that they are just waiting for someone to recognize the hurt. God heals, sets free and mends the broken hearts - I dare to believe that He uses US to do just that. I think its a big circle of LOVE - We say its all about HIM and I think He may say its all about us. Loving people = Loving God, Loving God = Worship.
Wait here is another one: Hook 'em, Love 'em then train 'em (and then again X and again X and again - multiplication tables folks). |
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| June 20, 2008 |
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| Josh--That is an excellent point. Worship is not about music. Music is one medium of entering into worship. If that happens to be your gift, it might be an effective way for you to enter into the holy of holies and encounter His presence. God responds to the worship music in our church, because it brings us into unity of spirit, focused on Him--we are approaching Him via the medium of His word in music. But, that's not all He wants from us! Worship involves every act of your life! |
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| June 21, 2008 |
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Wow!, Birdie I have been watching and reading for a few days already, all of this great comments about your most recent blog, "An Eye Opening Experience". And I bet you never imagine that people would be so passionate about this! The funny thing is that I find all of this fuzz in almost the same line of what Dr. Thomas was teaching about our true motives, not long ago. Why do we do the things that we do? And though I do agree that the Word of Yahveh is not up for discussion, I do consider one thing, that when David decided to build a Temple for the Lord, it became as an act of worship! Ahh! How awesome is that?! 21:18Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David that David should go up and rear an altar to the LORD on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jeb'usite. 21:19So David went up at Gad's word, which he had spoken in the name of the LORD.
21:26 And David put up an altar there to the Lord, offering burned offerings and peace-offerings with prayers to the Lord; and he gave him an answer from heaven, sending fire on the altar of burned offering.
22:1 Then David said, This is the house of the Lord God, and this is the altar for Israel's burned offerings.
And later King Solomon declared,
2:5 And the house which I am building is to be great, for our God is greater than all gods. 2:6 But who may have strength enough to make a house for him, seeing that the heaven and the heaven of heavens are not wide enough to be his resting-place? who am I then to make a house for him? But I am building it only for the burning of perfume before him.
The "Burning of Perfume", What is that? WORSHIP!!!
11:17 And he taught, and said unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations? but ye have made it a den of robbers.
We have been taught indeed, that prayer is worship and adoration unto the Lord. That, I believe is the true commission for the church today. All the rest is good, but not our true mandate. And even when there seem to be other church groups that are using all other sort of ways to "lure" people into the kingdom with perhaps the wrong motives or intentions, like the word says, "If they are not against us, then they are for us".
9:38 John said to him, Master, we saw one driving out evil spirits in your name: and we said that he might not, because he is not one of us. 9:39 But Jesus said, Say not so: for there is no man who will do a great work in my name, and be able at the same time to say evil of me. 9:40 He who is not against us is for us.
I believe that we need to begin to judge ourselves more so, with sober judgement as to whether or not we are truly in the path which we should be at, as a church right now, and not to worry about comparisons. The truth is, there is not such thing as a perfect church...and if there is, the moment that we get there, were are bound to mess it up!
Big churches do what they do, simply because they can! But only God can be the judge of their true motives. When Yahshua began His ministry, the more that He pointed towards true worship, the smaller the crowd got. But it became the most dynamite group of people in the world. True Revolutionaries. And they set a path that changed whole world! So, the same goes for the church as for the church goers. What are we really seeking? If we are going to judge a church by the fact the we do not get the pat on the back or the tender hug, the shoulder to cry on, the nice lady to agree on prayer for us, etc., then we are missing it! All of that is nice and good, but once again I ask, What are we really seeking? Only when we realize that our true comfort and strength comes from the Giver of All and we "yield" ourselves to His direction, we will be connected to a true worship relationship with our Father. We could go to the nicest church, with the nicest people on earth, with the most beautiful facilities, but if we don't work that relationship with the Father...We are just...MIA. And the connection that we make with the people, not the Father, is going to leave us feeling empty again.
Being a military family for many years, I found the most difficult thing of all the moving and transitions was looking for a home church. And every-time that I would finally make a decision, it was based on the worship. Even if it meant that sometimes I have to drive for miles and miles away, but I refuse to set for comfort and convenience. There were times that my children even did without the nice, glittery youth and children activities. But I would put my trust in my Father that if I taught them well in the way that they should go, no matter what "chananagans"(?) they may get into as they get older, that sooner or later they would come home again. Even if they come back as a prodigal. Are we truly putting our trust in our Father, or are putting more trust in the "stuff" that man, Can or Cannot provide for us? Where is our true focus?
Love, Diana
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| June 21, 2008 |
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| Good word Diana! |
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| June 21, 2008 |
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Paul--Wow...the trade off...glitz for glory and pizzazz for power...scary, scary stuff. I chuckled at the story of your friend. Sounds like your friend was walking in a prophetic mantle and didn't even recognize it yet--thus 'the hunger' for pizza! He thought he wanted pizza and wound up hungry for so much more! Great illustration! Thanks for sharing it!
Diana--It has been awesome to hear so many points of view on this subject, and yet, I don't think I can get cozy and comfortable even inside the church we have!
I was seriously pondering last night--why we still have vials of miracle oil when every last one of us knows how many people have been healed and delivered after being annointed with that oil. It reminded me of this story Yahshua told:
"God's kingdom is like a treasure hidden in a field for years and then accidently found by a trespasser. The finder is ecstatic - what a find! - and proceeds to sell everything he owns to raise money and buy that field." Matt. 13: 44 MSG
I feel convicted everytime I see those vials sitting there on the table waiting on us--because we know better.
There must be at least a thousand miracles waiting to happen inside those little bottles. Have we not enough compassion or faith to use an instrument that Yahveh has placed in our hands? Will we let the oil sit and grow rancid as we come and go--seriously, a Holy fear comes over me when I think about that. Each drop of that oil is potentially a life that is waiting to be transforned! And I am guilty! Like the 10 lepers that were healed and only one returned to worship Him. Am I like the other nine or will I do what I know to do--when will my worship transcend my own neat little space and begin spilling over like the vial that exploded in my hand that day after church?
I wonder what would happen if the church took that oil and began prayer walking the community? What if we began calling on the neighborhood and annointing doors as we go? Do we have the faith to believe that 'such as I have will I give thee' is a word for today's world and today's church?
Maybe I'm preaching to myself here--but then so be it, I'll stir my own zeal...I personally have no time left for comfortable faith, or to hang with comfort driven people. I know too much, and I've gone too far to turn back now.
My prayer is 'use me or kill me--but don't let me hang with apathatic comfortable Christians.' lol! I'm ready for revolutionary paths, Sister!
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| June 22, 2008 |
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You know Birdie, I ponder about that myself sometimes. And we could minister to our communities and that is all good, but if don't feel up with His Presence first, all that we are going to be doing out there is messing things up. I for one believe that ministering is a high calling not to be taking lightly. And should be delegated by instruction of the Holy Spirit. We were not call to everyone, and everyone was not call to us. Unbridled zeal is a very serious thing. And sometimes the calling could be just there under our own roof first. How wonderful it is to be out there trying to help others clean up their lives, when our own "kitchen sink" is full of dirty dishes. And not necessarily that literally.
That is why once again, I say..."Let us examine ourselves with sober judgement...First of all", For is in His presence that should find the grace to do the will of the Father.
Love, Diana. |
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| June 22, 2008 |
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Diana-- If you have been called to eternal life, you have been commissioned. We are filled with the Holy Spirit at all times because Christ resides within us. At all times we are to be mete for the master's use--it's a fleshy thing when one can say 'I don't think I'm filled up enough to be used of God today--I might mess it up.'
59:16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. 59:18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 59:21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
According to God, you can't mess that up. The perfection of His spirit residing in you trancends your human limitations even to the exent that it exceeds your own lifespan and transforms your future generations.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is the heart of the Father--that none should perish. Every human being was, is and will be created by the Father for His Glory. Not all recieve His gift of salvation, but it is a gift freely given to all.
10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
This is the instruction Christ gave to His diciples. Are we not His disciples, Diana? Should we ignore this instruction? He did tell them not all would recieve their message, but there is no doubt that those whom he disciples, He also commissions to go out. He never told them not to go.
5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
What is under your own roof is assured through His covenant with you. Christ in YOU the hope of Glory! The Will of the Father is clear--His grace is already upon you. You need not get tripped up over sober judgement--you are redeemed, purchased with a great price. Your sins have been forgiven you. I find that to be most liberating, and a wonderful cause for stirring up the zeal that He has placed with me--I have no desire to bridle it. That would be like putting my light under the bushel.
We are called to everyone! Christ says so! So as the song goes...'This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine...!'
Love you My Sister!
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| June 23, 2008 |
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Yes! and Amen to that, but still my personal conviction is that not everyone, not every church has the same exact calling. Some of us are seed planters, others do the watering, and others fertilize, while still others do some pruning! We are called to everyone, but with a different purpose. I guess that is why some of us are the "Martha's" and others could be the "Marys". And it takes the guiding and the direction of the Holy Spirit to know that. Both are good and profitable for the kingdom. We should minister to others but, we need to know how to, according to His direction in order to become more effective.
I have heard other preachers in the past say that if they did not have their families in right order, What kind of testimony would they give to the world? and How could they even minister to others? And yes, sometimes we just minister through the pain. That is why I believe that sometimes we need to take and inventory of our lives, before we get out there to reach others. We still minister and fulfill our calling, but we need to be careful, not to let the flesh get in the way. I have worked so close behind the scenes with other ministries in the past, some of them big, some of them small (a lot of people don't know that. I really don't like to talk about it much). Having much or having less, what really made the difference ( I found) was the people. Sometimes women in the leadership didn't know how to minister to other women because they have not been in similar situations. But there were others that did. We become all that we may reach others. So, it didn't matter how anointed these other were, if they didn't know how to use it they could not minister effectively. They were no less anointed, they simply were not called to everyone in the same way. That is why I believe in self examination and seeking the face of The Father first, that we may know What is our true calling and then do it all as unto Him! I just hope that I made myself clear, that's all.
As we discover our passion, it becomes our conviction...then our calling. One doesn't make it better than the other, is just different! That is the Grace our Father Yahveh.
And I could be here all night sharing all of this wonderful insight with you my beloved sister but, me tired!!! Ooofff!!! I need to get some ZZZZZZZZZ!!!!
Talk to you later!!
Love, Diana. |
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| June 23, 2008 |
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Birdie,
I've heard of the large churches where there is not a minister present, but he is projected from a different location. I've heard of wealthy churches, but I've not heard about the kind of church you described. It would stun me.
There are so many needs in this world, and I just can't see a church spending money on things like that instead of missions. |
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| June 24, 2008 |
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Joey--I never got that either (having the Pastor piped in) I guess that's why I've never been enticed to 'experience' church like that. I have to say--in a world where we have instant access to the knowledge that there are greater needs all around us, I found it hard to justify too.
Diana--As I was reading your comment I thought of Dr. Thomas's teaching that 'God is not looking for perfection, he is looking for precision. Can you follow the instruction?' If we spent more time following the instructions with precision instead of disecting the instructions, and debating our own inner inclinations--would we find ourselves more free to exhibit the kind of faith that impacts the lives of others?
We can always talk ourselves out of anything if we listen to our own voice long enough. The greatest virtue of inner silence, abiding in His peace; is that it allows us to hear the Father speaking in soft affirming tones--He is the source of our strength, not the perfect obedience of our children. How refreshing is it to hear the testimony of a woman who has already walked through what you are now facing? That woman that inspires you does not possess some exquisite quality that is out of your reach--she has simply quieted her own sense of unworthiness long enough to give you the benefit of her experience.
She has walked through one moment of courage at a time to lend you hope. Those moments of courage are available to each of us, if we trust them more than our scars. If we can lay our battle wounds at the altar, God transforms them into something beautiful--and he redeems our tears when we take what he has created from them to lend hope to someone else. He gives us beauty for ashes.
I know you are walking through a tumulteous time--but you are a woman filled with His grace. Use this time of uncertainty to breathe in the intoxicating fragrance of His passion for you and then exhale, slowly...breathing hope into the sister that he places in your path. When we learn to breathe and exhale with Him--matching his breath through the bleakest of times, we embody the true essence of worship.
I love you much and I'm praying with you!
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| June 24, 2008 |
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Just a few comments about this from "Brother Matthew"
Seems that this was an issue even back then.
Matthew 6:20
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy,
and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. |
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| June 24, 2008 |
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Hi Birdie, I'm back. I talked to Greg last night as we drove to Restland. A dear friend of our's lost his Dad, and we went to see him. Greg knew all about these kinds of Churches. He said, they just do it get more people to come to Church.
I started to think about that... "to come to Church".
I still must say that Church is for Worship, not the other "ultra stuff". I find God everywhere, because He's always with me. Give me a simple wooden bench in a simple Church with a large Cross and Minister and I am at Church. I am at Church if we are on retreat at a Boy Scout Camp in the woods. Jesus didn't need all of the extras and I don't believe He would want us to either.
I agree with the verses from Matthew. Especially...
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
- Matthew 6:21
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| June 24, 2008 |
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Joey-- I'm so sorry to hear of your friend's loss. So glad you could be there for him in his time of sorrow.
I so agree with you. The church is not really 'where you come' so much as it is 'who you are'.
Mary-- Thank you for inserting those precious nuggets recorded by our dear Brother Matthew. The truth speaks loudly doesn't it?
My thoughts were turned back to this subject today as I was reading in the book of Acts.
Building 'the better sheep trap' is not new to our generation. Paul warned of it as he said his final good-byes in Acts Chapter 20: 18-38. It would befall them just as it has befallen our generation--he specifically cautioned the newly formed church not to fall for the 'new and improved version' that would spring up, not from outside the church, but from inside. I think he left the warning, because this would take place with good intentions, and come from trusted sources--making it difficult to discern just as it is now.
Many on this blog have said "I'm not sure it's bad..." or "I have mixed feelings" or "it's a form of ministry, so it must be ok." Is it? Or is it difficult to discern? Perhaps when something is difficult to discern, that in itself is a red flag--worthy of taking a moment to back up and take a second look through the litmus test of His Word.
As I said, I'm not bashing mega churches, nor debating the validity of what any ministry is teaching. I am questioning our values. Do having these things present in our massive buildings reflect biblical values or worldy values?
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| June 25, 2008 |
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| Amen, Sistah! His Greatness cannot be matched! When His light and Life comes shining through---you can never be more lovely, make up or no make up! lol! We are merely a conduit for the most awesome and beautiful things...no need to improve on perfection. When He is in our midst, we cannot even gaze upon His Glory, but His countenance can be seen in us...I don't think Max Factor can do that for me. :) |
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| June 27, 2008 |
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I totally agree.. Churches around where I live have Spirit.. But they are more intuned into what will draw people of Things.. Than draw them by Spirit of God ! A Methodist church near me added a paintball game out on church property, Built a basketball gyme to the back few years ago and now starint basketball games, An they started movies in the conception eating area once a week with popcorn hotdogs and drinks. Kids think church is FUN, LETs go to church ! Its not lets go visit the TRue Father any more. Another church up the road already had the basketball gym going for years... And now thay have more and more louder sound systems for the loud new gospel being played ( Which new is fine but do we have to be Deaf trying to have God in His house?). Another Church lets out by the clock to much afraid they gonna miss out on the eats. What is wrong with staying as long as the Spirit does.. I remember churches starting at 11 am and going, and going... Some for days.. But this church is well we have run over Mr. Genes buffet mey be getting low. Whats with that ??? That food will be there, if not another cafe can serve ya !? So many churches or not for the gathering of God's children so much.. But the next HEN Gaggle party..To see who out dresses the other, has the better vehicle, hear the town gossip this weak... I was moved to looK around the churches in my area ! Yes URGency to go church to church.. Lot of the same church to church.. Lot of them saying MIne concerning the church flock, church, properties of Church, my sermon.. Its No longer God's ! The thing that gets me most is.. To go to a church and get 1..OR maybe 2 sentences of Scripture..Then the rest is a long story of who did this and that and what they got out of the lesson... What happenned to actually Teaching the GOSPEL ! I remember long reads of God's words... not a line or 2 ??? I have started studying God's word by reading His WORD the BIBLE(which i have done since 2 years old- Early reader). Reading His word on the net, Bible online, sermons by net preachers(LIKE THIS ONE RIGHT HERE ;-) ). T.v. evangelists.... In a Sunday at home I have seen 3 or 4 sermons.>Read the bible several times through out the day.. And Net time through the week to read My Fathers word ! I pray daily... GOD said Pray without ceasing.. Most churches now a days only gather on Sunday..OR saturday..and occasion of Wednesday night. Churches here will close if they have something more pressing to do.. OR a gospel singing elsewhere..So since small churches.. THey close..Leaving the flock who have no means to go to the gospel singing... Without word that day or night service. This world is more into self as your Post intels... Conveniance like a mall.. in a church. Thank YOu for posting this message ! Keep up the good fight hon...
MAy GOD continue to Speak through your vessel ! IN JESUS name -AMEN !!!! |
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| June 27, 2008 |
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Gods house shall be known as a house of prayer, not a den of thieves. Anything that takes our focus off of Christ and steals our attention is stealing us away from worshiping HIM.
This is TRUTh... And we in trying to draw in the new generation are adding things like the robbers and thieves did into the house of God. Somone stated above that we cannot out do the majesty of Gods Magesty of Creations. We cannot ! No way if we tried ! I can see how we need things to get kids to see the church now a days. So much in this world is fun to a child.>They do not want to spend time in a boring church ! But then again church is not about FUN. IF God is there you feel loved and welcomed... BUt you also leave feeling your toes been stepped on ! That is do to you know the Spirit spoke to you of your sins..And that you need chastizement, And you need direction which the Lord now gave you in the stepping of your toes persay !
God's word says... That our Bodies are the TEMPLE.. WE the Flesh with Spirit of Him in us is THE true church... HIM GOD is the Church.. JEsus comes back to get His CHurch.. MAN that has excepted HIM !
Below is the scriptures this came from...
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Now in this I believe... That to put things in a church , or in or around our bodies, that TAKE away from God is wrong. SIN IS the essence of ANything that takes your mind OFF OF GOD.
This is so strong in me right noW .. I tremble... God is warning as others are here in this post also warning through God ! PRaise God For Direction ! And PRotection of warning His children !
I know god works in Mysterious ways... For Sure. He Knows why and How he set things to be. An why He has someone to do that which He leads them to do in building what He sent them to Build. God had a reason to set these small churches, as well as big churches, or they would not be. A friend told me yesterday by email to not fret over who will be PRIme MInister, PResident, OR any other Influencial Person, OR anything. God had it set already... She was wise..And her words was something always I had said..GOd preset things or they would not be... But Yet I had overlooked it in worry who will I vote for ? BUt I will worry NO more Thansk to God ! HE has it covered !
All these buildings for a church or whatever......
The Lost books of Jesus Christ the Popecy has under cover states " I am in All things !" said by Jesus. It matters not what material building as we know as earthy. It matter in the TRUE temple building of Heart, mind, body, and soul... HIs Spirit in uS ! That is what matters ! And also that we GO and tell HIS Gospel ! That is what it is ALL about ! Nothing matters BUt God !
Also JESUS needed not all these things the church draws people with since churches were built ! JEsus would simply walk to someone as the Tax Sesser.. And say "Follow me".... And they followed.
This is an awesome filed Postings from Birdie... And all that joined into the discussion ! I know I have been Blessed By God's words here... And Also by each of You.. GOD Bless !
MOSt Gracious Father in Heaven.>Our True Church.. You are... Guide each of us here Father Jehovah ! Guide us to discern the right from wrong in this matter of Churches.> And how they are run .. Lead US to run Our True Temple, which is You and the Spirit in our bodies.. Help us to bring the next generation to YOu, in the manner you have set in us your children ! IN JEsus Christs Our Lord Thy Sons name - AMEn ! And AMEN ! PRAISE GOD !!!!! |
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| June 27, 2008 |
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You will see # 20 repeated ! I did not do that ! And www.bible.com is where I got it from and it does not have a duplicate either ! God spoke up through me...... I seen it not till i re read.. I copied t all in one swift copy too.. Thought ya might wanna know.....
God is Blessing us in this discussion.. Praise GOD ! AMEN ! |
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| June 28, 2008 |
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Godsindixiesheart--That is sooo cool! Holy Spirit is nudging today! That deserves a double Amen Sister! It is so liberating to know that at some point we are literally dead to the world and it's ways. That doesn't happen over night, but it does happen and I think that once you reach that point, you have taken a journey that has exposed so much that it is difficult to be wooed or wowed by the glitz and the pizzazz as Paul DeLuca pointed out. There comes a time when you draw a line in the sand and refuse to step over it.
I remember vividly coming to that line in my own life--even discussing it with my best friend. I sort of laugh now, looking back--but at the time it seemed scary. I knew God was asking for an all or nothing deal from me, and I also knew that once I stepped over the line--my faith would no longer be 'status quo'. It wouldn't be good enough to be a 'spectator' --he was asking for a full enlistment. As my Pastor said, a few comments back--He was called as a pastor to train up soldiers, an army to fight the good fight. I have to tell you--I was used to 'entertainment church' and a 'spectator' mentality and God set me up! He plunked me down in what felt like a boot camp compared to what I had been used to.
Trust me, over the years, I have squirmed, wiggled, cried, threw hissy fits, shook my fist toward the heavens (ummmm-and then repented quickly before the lightening bolts started flying)--and on many occassions I'm sure all the people sitting around me have smelled the Holy Bar-B-Que raging in my seat as my flesh sizzled on the coals of truth.
Why did I have such a hard time with it? Because so much of ME needed to be conformed and re-formed into His likeness--instead of my forming HIM into my likeness--which was what I gained from all my years attending church in 'entertainment' mode.
Now--I can relax in His presense, I can bask in His Glory and there are far fewer hot coals begging to fry my flesh--because there is just less of it. That doesn't make me saintly--it's just the truth. The TRUTH has set me free, and I run to that freedom now instead of begging to hang on to what the world had to offer me.
Holiness, obedience, consecration, sanctification. Those are words we don't like to hear--they sizzle against the flesh and they don't sell books or fill up auditoriums, but they change you--they position you to enter into a relationship with Him that will ruin the world for you...and open the way to life, and life more abundant...as He promised.
The Wii, the Wi-Fi and the Latte will never draw you, or change you like His presense--like His touch, like His truth will. When we shed our layers of the world as individuals, and then we come together as the church--we impact the world, instead of the world impacting us.
Thanks for sharing your heart today, and being a willing vessel! I joined my heart in agreement with yours as you prayed on the blog. You are a blessing!
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| June 28, 2008 |
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| Me too, Shannon! Give me the army life! lol! |
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| June 28, 2008 |
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Hey, I LIKE that...sign me up! oh...I guess I'm already signed up...lol! |
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| December 26, 2008 |
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| This is right on the money Birdie. God must weep at the sensuality that pours out from most churches these days. I agree also with MikenLaura; In the presentation we so often distract those who are so very impressionable. Great Post.. God bless.. |
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| December 26, 2008 |
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| Wow! What a fantastic blog! I attended a mini version of what you are describing for a couple of years during a transition phase, but was eventually turned off by what I called empty-headed fluff. Yours is such a well written contribution to our faith. |
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| December 27, 2008 |
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Rev Len sadly my own grandchildren are a testament to that. They recently attended a church like this and told me about it the next day. "Grandma they had 19 flat screen TV's and a big playground like Chucky Cheese!" ...but when I asked them what they learned they couldn't remember. I though of this blog when that happened. I think you're right, Rev Len...I think it makes God sad.
Grant thanks for the Kudos. I talk to people all the time who say they go to Y Church or Z Church and they love it--I don't want to name the churches I'm speaking of but both boast memberships of over 10,000 and our church sits smack in the middle of Y and Z territory. There appears to be many people who, like Josh said in his comment, want to be a small part of a big thing instead of a big part of a small thing. |
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| December 27, 2008 |
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You can have the best of everything in Church but if the Love of God isnt there then the best of everything will not help or aid teens, Saints, children, adult and specailly not the sinner. The House of God should be a place for worship and prayer not about what toys the church has or what fancy chairs or pictures ect. Everyone needs to feel welcome in the House of God and see and feel the love of God. The world do not need the world but the world needs Jesus and it is up to the "church" to give and share and show Jesus!
So lets give them Jesus!
Theresa |
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| December 29, 2008 |
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| I agree Theresa! Let's give them Jesus! |
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