Baptist Church in Rochester, NY 1870’s:A deacon confronts the pastor for placing a piano in the church, describing it as a “sign of the beast.”This incident, recorded in Helen Barrett Montgomery’s memoirs, was a sign of the times.Although we can only speculate, it has been suggested that this attitude stemmed from the fact that pianos were used in dance halls and saloons.Today there are still churches that claim all instruments EXCEPT the piano and organ are of Satan, but most Christians today enjoy instrumental music as an integral part of worshiping God.
Eastern Europe, late 1930’s-1945:Even theologians participated fully in Hitler’s call to exterminate some 11 million human beings, including Jews,Mentally Handicapped Persons,Disabled Persons, Homosexual Men, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholic Poles, Soviet POW’s, Political Prisoners, and Romani People.Why?Presumably because Hitler convinced them that these were all sub-humans and were a threat to their well-being??Today those of us who read the memoirs of Holocaust survivors, or visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC are muted in disbelief at the horror of such inhumane treatment.One man, who was then well respected and trusted, managed to convince an entire culture that all these groups of people were sub-human and were outside of God’s plan for the human race.Before reading on, pause here for a moment, and really think about this atrocity.How could so many supposedly well meaning people, including God’s people, buy into this ideology?Are we immune to such persuasion?
Southern Baptist Convention, June20, 1995:The SBC adopted a resolution in1995 renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its defense of slavery. That was 1995!A 1968 survey conducted by the SBC’s Home Mission Board showed that only 11% of Southern Baptist churches would admit African-Americans. A century after the abolition of slavery.Think about that.
North Carolina Baptist State Convention, Nov. 14, 2006:Voted to throw out any church that advocated homosexuality in any way, even knowingly having a gay person in membership.Other denominations have made similar rulings.“Go away homosexuals!You are not welcome in our churches.We prefer to keep you out of fellowship with Christian people, so we can accuse you of being godless and promiscuous!”
There are certain words that set Christians off.Words like abortion, evolution, stem-cell research, women in ministry, Bush, and the winner for this decade, homosexuality. We hear these words, and our brains and tongues go into automatic pilot.We don’t even hear the questions or the issues, just the word.We have rehearsed our responses and are proud to hone our speaking skills every chance we get.Well, I want to ask you to do something different on this blog.This will be a blog that will “ruffle the feathers” of most of you who read it, because its purpose is to challenge us to think deeper and to step beyond the comfortable box we have built around ourselves.If you are already finding yourself formulating an earth shattering response, please stop for a moment.Please do one of two things before continuing:1)Take the time to carefully read and listen to this entire blog. (Yes, I know it’s long!)or 2)move on to another blog without commenting here, and come back later if you’d like.
Still here?Great!I was afraid I wrote all the rest of this blog for nothing! OK, pull up a chair, and grab a drink!We could be here a while!
HOW CHRISTIANS REACT TO GAY PEOPLE
OK, first of all, why is this issue so important to us as the Church?It is importantbecause it is the daily struggle of so many people all around us everyday.Hurting people, searching people, people created by the God who created you and me, the majority of whom have turned their backs on the Church and God, because the Church has turned its back on them, and they don’t make the distinction between the perfect God and His fallible Church.You think you don’t know any gay people?You are blind to them probably because they perceive that you do not understand and would feel the need to share with them how abominable their lifestyle is to God (they have heard it already!), and whatever respect you have for them now would disappear.True, isn’t it?What if you found out your supervisor was gay?Your nephew?Your child’s teacher?Your music minister?Your brother?The guy in the next cubicle?Your daughter?Your husband?
Chances are you would want to protect those you love from them, and/or you would want to help them change.This normal response is riddled with fallacy.First, gay people are no more likely to be predatory or child molesters than are heterosexual people.They are all around us everyday living normal lives just like the rest of us.Now, that said, there is a tendency to more promiscuity within the gay male community, due I think to two reasons:1)the church has shunned them, so they are not welcome to be a part of a fellowship that’s growing in Christian principles, and 2) men in general are more sexual, and without the constraints put on by God (and wife!), many men fall naturally into promiscuous lifestyles.
Second fallacy:Homosexuals can be changed into Heterosexuals.Despite what we Christians want so strongly to believe, an intelligent view of science and psychology is fairly conclusive that sexual orientation is not a choice.That causes serious problems for our Christian thinking, so we will argue the opposite position until we are red in the face, but ultimately, it doesn’t change the facts.Why are people gay?I don’t know.That jury has been out for a long time, and that chapter is not in this blog!
Having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, for better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. -Ben Franklin (1787)
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
The one obstacle to Christians accepting what science knows to be true is their personal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.There are those who have been taught that the Bible is God’s exact words given directly to us for the purpose of telling us how to live, and that every word in our KJV or NIV is without discrepancy and meant to be directly applied to our everyday lives.A large number of today’s churches teach such an interpretation.
Others, however, view each individual scriptural writing with regard to such questions as who wrote it, who was its intended audience, when was it written and why, etc.This is an extremely important point in understanding the issue of this blog, so if you truly desire to understand the viewpoint I am about to present, please pause for a moment and read THIS BLOG first, pertaining to Scriptural interpretation.
There is much written on the Biblical interpretation of the homosexual passages of the Bible.The literalists cling to such passages as Lev. 18:22 to say “case closed,”and they close it.Much has been written by Christians on both sides of this issue, and I would do it a disservice to attempt to cover the Biblical arguments in a couple of paragraphs.I will say, however, that, despite my assertion that sexual orientation is not a sin, I am offended and opposed to the irresponsible “scholarship” of those who claim the homosexuality of Jesus or his disciples. . .Jesus had a mission far greater than marriage and family, a mission of salvation for all His people.Truth is what it is.Truth needs nothing added to it.It stands.It is.And extremists on both sides have taken their “truth” too far.I will advocate neither the “closed book” view nor the “homosexuality is condoned in Scripture” view. Homosexuality as we think of it today was nonexistent in both OT and NT times, although the orientation itself is evident across lines of time and place.
For those on the “case closed” side, consider the following Scripture passages. The Bible says it.Shall we apply them to our lives?
Gen. 6:2-4 Uncircumcised males have broken God’s covenant and should be cut off from his people. (bad pun?)
Ex. 21:22 When a man hurts a pregnant woman and causes miscarriage, “yet no harm follows,” (huh?),he shall be fined.
Ex. 31:14-15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath shall be put to death. (!)(Num. 15:32-36 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath is stoned to death at God’s command!)
Matt. 23:9Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is in heaven.
Lev. 3:17, 11:6-7, 14:11ffEat neither fat nor blood, hare nor swine, ostrich
Lev. 11:10 Eating water creatures that don’t have fins and scales is an abomination!
Lev. 15, 20:18 A menstruating woman is unclean, and a man who has relations with her (cut off from people)
Lev. 19:19 Don’t let cattle mix-breed, don’t sow two different kinds of seed in one field (corn and beans?), don’t wear clothes made of two different materials (cotton and polyester?)
Lev. 19:27-28 Don’t round off your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard; no tattoos.
Lev. 20:18; Deut. 21:18-20 A child who curses his parent shall be put to death (!); If you have a stubborn and rebellious son, turn him over to the elders to be stoned to death. (!)
Lev. 20:10 Adulterers shall both be put to death.
Lev. 24:17-20 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, fracture for fracture (opposite of Jesus’ teachings to turn the other cheek)
Lev. 25:39-46 Rules for owning slaves
Num. 5:2 All with a discharge and all who have been in contact with a dead body shall be put out of the camp.
Mark 10:2-12 Remarriage is adultery.
Mark 16:17-18 Jesus said the signs of those who believe will be: casting out demons, speaking in tongues, picking up serpents, drinking poison without being harmed, and healing the sick (Can we call ourselves “believers”?!)
1 Tim. 2:9-15 women, do not wear braids, gold, pearls, or costly apparel;don’t teach or have authority over men;you will be saved in child-bearing (huh?)
Deut. 22:13-21 A woman found to be not virgin (by her husband’s testimony that garment was not soiled), she shall be stoned.
Deut. 23:1 A man with crushed testicles or a cut off penis cannot enter the assembly of the Lord (I’m not making this stuff up!)
Deut. 23:2 Nor a bastard, even to the 10th generation of his descendants (This is plain mean!)
Mark 12:25 No marriage in heaven (not many sermons on that one!)
2 Kings 2:23-25 Elisha curses young boys for calling him “baldhead”, and bears tear 42 of them.(Again, not good sermon material!)
1 Cor. 7:14; 15:29 Paul says an unbelieving spouse is consecrated through the believing one (He also admits these are his own words.); then he defends baptism on behalf of the dead.(Not many Christians believe either of these.)
1 Cor. 11:14 Long hair on a man is degrading.
I’ll stop there.This started out as a blog, not a novel!My point here is that literalism to be applied directly to our 21st century lives causes many problems.God is not confined to any time or culture, and He (not the law) continues to be just as relevant in our culture as He was in the OT times.
13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Attitudes about homosexuality vary greatly from culture to culture and from century to century.There has likely never been a culture without homosexuals, even in the animal kingdom,but in many cultures, it has been a non-issue.Somewhat like people with red hair.Notably different from most, but an insignificant distinction.Many of the Native American cultures honor their homosexual members, referring to them as two-spirited people, and honoring their special qualities and gifts.Other cultures have made homosexuality illegal and punishable by death.Others, like ours, have singled homosexuals out as morally reprehensible and socially deviant persons.
The culture of our age, including the Christian subculture, has an inflated fixation on sexuality in general and especially on homosexuality.I wholehearted affirm that our younger generations are living in a sexual culture that is harming them emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, as the lines of sexual morality are being erased.The free sex mentality, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is most definitely apart from God’s plan for His children, and He stands, arms outstretched, awaiting our repentance.It grieves me to see the emotional and spiritual confusion of my young students as they experiment sexually with multiple partners, sometimes even with both genders.I sympathize with a generation that falls into such harmful choices amidst such a confusing culture, but in no way do I condone such sexual freedom.
WHO ARE GAY PEOPLE?
Who are gay people?Homosexuality has no boundaries.Gay people are born into families of every race, every culture, and every religion.Gay people are businessmen, public servants, waitresses, parents, siblings, sons, and daughters.Gay people are as varied as their heterosexual counterparts.
Without attempting to stereotype, there are some typical qualities and gifts that gay people often bring to their worlds that are worthy of mention here.Gay men are often especially caring and sensitive to others’ needs, thus often choosing ministerial careers.It is the gay man who will often take in his aging parents to care for them.He is often gifted in the arts, musically talented, and attracted to careers in entertainment, theatre, fashion or design, or often to church music ministry.Gay women typically enjoy sports, many rising into the college and professional levels, and are often driven in their careers, many making great contributions to their professions.
Sexual orientation is a misnomer.A person’s sexual orientation is not about sex.It is about identity.This unfortunate label is, in my opinion, a lot of the problem with our inability to see gay persons as we see everyone else.We cannot say “homosexual” without conjuring mental images of “what they do.”I call this the “ick” factor.It has to be wrong, because it’s “icky.”Why do we want to think about what ANYONE does sexually?Do you think about what your supervisor does with his wife?Do you think about what your parents do?(Now, THAT’S icky!)If the ick factor is a litmus test for right and wrong, it is definitely a sin for our parents to have sex, is it not?Not to mention our married daughters.Let’s not think about these things!Not about heterosexuals, not about homosexuals. One day our culture will stop calling gay people by “sexual” names and embrace the gifts they bring to our world.I hope I live to see it.
The estimates of what percentage of the population is gay vary greatly, depending mainly on the “agenda” of the organization conducting the study.Studies conducted by those who see homosexuality as an atrocity, for example, tend to find far smaller percentages (1-2%) than studies conducted by organizations whose focus is mainly on homosexual advocacy (about 10%).The more trustworthy sources are those with no extreme bias.The American Psychological Association in 1989 estimated that 10% of men and 5% of women are gay.Personally, although I’m certain it is more than 1-2%, I will remain outside this argument, as it seems to me impossible to arrive at an accurate percentage for something most gay people are not going to disclose when asked by pollsters.If only 1% of Americans are gay, however, that would be over 3 million people.And if 10% are gay, that would mean over 30 million.
Who are gay people?They touch every segment of our population.
In my college days when I was trying to teach myself to play the guitar (a goal that’s not yet accomplished), the first song I taught myself to play was Come to the Water.Remember that one?“And Jesus said, Come to the Water, Stand by my side, I know you are thirsty, You won’t be denied.I felt every teardrop when in darkness you cried, and I strove to remind you that for those tears I died . . .”One of those campfire songs that spread quickly across the young Christian scene, much like “It only takes a spark to get a fire going . . .”Well, years later, churches were tearing this song out of their hymnals, and its popularity was squelched.Why?Because it was discovered that the writer, Marsha Stevens, was a gay woman. (See video below.)Never mind that she wrote music that inspired a generation of Christians, leading us to seek closer communion with God.She was quickly shunned by the Christian music industry.
More recently, gospel singer Kirk Talley who never even had a homosexual relationship, fell from "grace" after it was exposed that he confided in a friend his same-sex attractions. On Dec. 22, 2003, Kirk Talley, beloved Christian singer/songwriter ("Step Into the Water," "He Is Here," et.al.), Dove Award winner, Grammy nominee, the boyish-faced man dubbed "Mr. Gospel Music" found himself pleading to his friend to kill him, and to God to let him die. (GQ Magazine, August 2005)
In 2007 Evangelist Ted Haggard was exposed for a 3-year homosexual relationship.After three weeks of therapy, he claimed he was cured of years of homosexual struggle.He may have even believed it.(I believe in miracles, but have my doubts that this was one of them.)Then there was Rev. Gene Robinson of the Episcopal Church, and New Jersey governor James McGreevey.The Christian community hears these stories and sees sin.I hear these stories and see a culture that forces gay people to deny who they are, and the problems this inevitably brings.
Who are gay people?They as varied and unique as are heterosexuals.Their one distinction is that they are attracted to like-gendered partners.
To be treated with equality.Period.The term gay agenda is one of many political watch words, meant to set off our emotions.Every person and every group has some kind of agenda.Evangelicals want to Christianize the world.Merchants want to make money.Gay people want to be understood and respected.
WHY IS THE GAY POPULATION GROWING SO RAPIDLY?
It isn’t.The gay population, by all reputable evidence has remained fairly steady, percentagewise, throughout history.The recent difference is not that there are more gay people, but that, with the internet, cable tv, etc., more gay people are becoming comfortable enough to disclose their sexuality, and more are deciding to seek equal rights and recognition.
WHY ARE THERE GAY CHURCHES?
Not only do we like to condemn gay people for not going to church, but we like to condemn them for having churches of their own.What must they do in these churches? Probably sexual orgies, we speculate.The early church was similarly accused.They met privately and talked of such things as love feasts, drinking the blood, and eating the body.Many outside the church accused them of orgies and cannibalism.Having never been to a gay church, I cannot answer this question, but, like you, I have an opinion.I doubt the orgies.I suspect they are Christian people who desire to gather for worship and fellowship, and who unfortunately, are not welcome in our mainline churches.They could push themselves into our churches, and be told repeatedly they are living in sin and need to get right with God, an assertion that by the way, they know to be flawed much better than any of us, or they can create their own sanctuary where they can worship God with others who understand and accept them, or, as is the case for many, they can choose to stay away from organized churches altogether.
RESPONDING TO CHRISTIANREACTIONS:
1. Love the sinner, Hate the sin.This is probably our favorite response to the issue of homosexuality.It does have a nice ring to it, but it’s flawed on at least two levels.First, it assumes that homosexuality is a sin.And second, I have yet to see what that love for the sinner looks like.It is overshadowed by the hate for the sin.If we believe someone is living in abominable and repulsive sin, does he sense God’s love radiating from us? Henri Nouwen said it this way: "Compassion can never coexist with judgment because judgment creates the distance, the distinction, which prevents us from being with the other."I challenge us to refrain from SAYING this overused platitude, and to pray instead that we will be filled with God’s love.
2. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.This one is so trivial on so many levels, but some find it catchy.Without giving it more attention that it merits, here’s my quick response:God created trees, so does that mean he didn’t create broccoli?If Adam had green eyes, would that mean that God didn’t create people with brown eyes?Were we to take the time to examine the Hebrew words from which Adam and Eve were translated, there would be more fodder for discussion, butI’ll move on . . .
3. The Bible says be fruitful and multiply.Again, I could write an entire blog responding to this one argument, but I won’t.We have amply populated the earth, too amply, many would argue. Embracing homosexuals as our brothers and sisters would not cause everyone else to stop populating.Homosexuality is not a choice.A certain percentage of people are homosexual, despite what laws we may have for or against, and a much larger percentage of the population will continue to multiply, no matter how much we try to stop it.(Look at our teen pregnancy rates, etc.)The earth is already filled with unwanted and exploited children, in need of love and attention.And Jesus, by the way, was not a physical “multiplier,” just as many others in the NT were not.
4. If we don’t stop homosexuals, it will open the door for polygamy and bestiality.Polygamy and bestiality have no relation whatsoever to homosexuality.This has become one of the many alarmist slogans within the opposing political agenda (yes, we ALL have our agendas), meant to appeal to uninformed peoples’ vulnerability.Polygamy and bestiality are behaviors, and behaviors are choices.This political agenda will continue to do all it can to convince us that sexual orientation is also a behavior and a choice.Studies have shown the more times we hear something, the more solidly we start to believe it, and the slogan repeaters are well aware of this.Studies have noted that bestiality practices are not uncommon among boys who grow up on a farm, but if true, I have never heard of anyone desiring to marry his chicken.(I know, “ick” again!)
5. Gay people cannot be Christian unless they repent and change.Nor can any of us.But orientation is not a need for repentance.Jesus said narrow is the gate that leads tolife.Narrow indeed for all people, but orientation has no direct correlation with whether a person is or is not Christian.(Indirect, yes, because the churches have shunned the homosexuals.)Nationally recognized organizations like Soulforce, Evangelicals Concerned, Gay Christian Network, and segments of many major denominations,are set up specifically to nurture and encourage Christian gay people.Every major denomination has begun struggling with this issue or most probably will have to do so soon.All the answers for the church are not easy, but may we at least reach the point of understanding that gay and Christian and not by nature antithetical.The most quoted verse of the Bible says WHOSOEVER believes will have eternal life.(John 3:16)
6. Protect the American family.Another political watch word.What does this really mean?Is the American family healthy without gay people?Why are we not wanting to put regulations on how easy it is to marry?Or to divorce?A quick glance into any public school classroom will give witness that the Leave It to Beaver family is not alive and well.Do you know what homosexuals are doing to fit into society?They are marrying your daughters.They love them and try their best to be good husbands, but they will inevitably hurt their “American family”, even if they never stray, because she will always know that something is not right, or wonder what’s wrong with her that she doesn’t please him.
7. I don’t believe people are born gay.OK, without getting too deep into the age old argument of nature vs. environment, it is technically true that humans do not fully develop a sense of sexuality prior to puberty.However, it seems more and more apparent, that there is indeed a genetic factor involved, that some people are biologically predisposed to same sex attractions, and to deny this is to bury our heads in the sand.Ignorance and closed minds are among Christianity’s worst enemies.
Herein is the crux of what divides us as Christians on this issue:Do homosexuals choose to be homosexual?Traditionalist Christians adamantly say yes, and if this were true, I would agree.Homosexuality would be a sin.If it is true, however, that homosexuality is genetically determined, much like eye color, tongue rolling, left-handedness, etc. (which is becoming more and more scientifically probable), then we are essentially saying that it is a sin for these people to be born.A homosexual person can no more deny his same-sex attractions than can a heterosexual deny his.
A century ago we were shouting that pianos in the church were of the devil.Then we shouted that abolition was of the devil.We shout that women in ministry is an outrage.And we quote Scripture to back up all our claims.Now, if the question is about homosexuality, our automated answer is “abomination.”Even Southern Baptist Seminary President Al Mohler recently blogged of the likelihood that homosexuality is biological, and found himself in the line of attack.One thing is for sure, either people are born gay or they are not, and that truth is not dependent on what we think about it.
8. Well, if they can’t change, they should just remain celibate.Some choose this path, just as do some heterosexuals, but history (and Scripture) has shown us that celibacy is not the overall answer.We are created as sexual beings, and that sexuality will likely come out perversely if not naturally, especially, I believe, in men, even if entered into with the sincerest of intentions.Consider, for example, the Catholic priesthood.And consider personally being told to live celibately. Not them. You.
9. If they repent, God will heal them. Again, the fallacy here is the assumption that orientation is a sin. The response of such evangelical leaders as Dr. James Dobson and Jerry Falwell has been to cure homosexuals. Dr. Dobson has advocated the use of so-called ex-gay ministries such as Exodus International. Prior to 2000 Dr. Dobson's Focus on the Family featured their own John Paulk, "the story of how one man overcame homosexuality." In 2000, however, when Paulk was spotted in a gay bar, he quickly disappeared from the organization family.
Interestingly, even the president of Exodus International agrees there is no "cure" for homosexuality. People do not choose their feelings, he says. They can only choose their behavior.
What do you think of the cultures that “cure” female sexuality by mutilating the genitals of the young girls? Why do we want to "cure" what needs no cure?
3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
Let’s look at a hypothetical scenario.We probably all choose to think of nuns as asexual beings, but that is not reasonable, as sexuality is a part of the human experience.Nuns, however, have chosen a life of celibacy, choosing not to act on their sexuality.But does that make them less heterosexual or homosexual?No, it doesn’t.If she is heterosexual but celibate, the church reveres her.If she is homosexual and celibate, do we call her a sinner?If so, we are wrong.If not, we must then realize a distinction between orientation and behavior.And if we cannot even fathom the concept of a homosexual celibate nun, we are disillusioned and are choosing to live in our own box, isolated from much of God’s Truth.
So, yes, I am saying that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not a sin.That said, however, what is done with that orientation is indeed a choice and can certainly lead to sin, for both homosexual and heterosexual people.Promiscuity is sin.Adultery is sin.Attraction, however, is basic human instinct.
SO IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A SIN, HOW SHOULD A GAY PERSON LIVE HIS LIFE?
How should a heterosexual live his life?First and foremost devoted wholly to God, and second, actively loving and caring for others.Jesus said this is the greatest commandment.For all of us.Further, he should seek a committed monogamous relationship with a compatible Christian (unless he chooses celibacy), and should flee from all promiscuous or adulterous behavior.
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. 22:39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
I am a quiet, reserved, and peace-loving person, but one of my deepest passions is speaking out for those who are being treated unjustly.My heroes are men like Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr., both of whom had their flaws, but both of whom courageously took unpopular stands for the social issues of their day.Another of my heroes, Thomas Jefferson, left his mark so wonderfully on our great nation.A man of highest intelligence.A man who could see the social injustice of his day.A man who wrote into our declaration of independence “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”Yet, he kept his slaves.It was his culture.He would have been much more condemned by the culture of his day to fight against slavery, than to continue as he did.Two and a half centuries later, it is for this lack of social action that he is most criticized.I am not Thomas Jefferson, or Martin Luther King.But I am one human being living in my own historical era, and I cannot keep from speaking out.The church is wrong about this, clinging to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible, in my opinion, with Jesus’ life and ministry.
I blog because it breaks my heart to think of another generation of gay young people struggling alone without family or church support.Another generation of young people believing something is wrong with them and wasting years trying to change in order to fit in.Another generation of church outcasts, confused at why God must not love them and why He doesn’t answer their prayers to change them.I write because you might be his aunt.Or his teacher.Or his pastor.Or his parent.You might be her office mate.Or her neighbor.Or her child’s little league coach.For this reason I write, and I am not alone.
A most interesting Focus on the Family story you may have missed was in 1997, when FOTF co-founder Gil Alexander-Moegerle, having left the organization, wrote a letter of apology for FOTF's stands on homosexuality and women's issues. (This story of course was not broadcast, and Dr. Dobson certainly did not endorse it.)He could no longer keep silent. In his words: "I apologize to lesbian and gay Americans who are demeaned and dehumanized on a regular basis by the false, irresponsible, and inflammatory rhetoric of James Dobson's anti-gay radio and print materials." (See entire letter here.)
Christian organizations like Evangelicals Concerned, Gay Christian Network, and Soulforce are offering love and support. Even some individual churches of the most closed denominations are stepping out to welcome all who want to join them.More and more Christians are hearing the cry of the marginalized and oppressed.More and more are choosing to practice God's love.
BUT THE BIBLE SAYS . . .
Leviticus clearly states if a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination.Likewise a few other passages make similar statements.How then, if I am a Christian, can I write such a blog as this?
Prayerfully and fully believing it is God who propels me.
For those who strongly hold to a literalist understanding of the Bible (I don’t like the term inerrantist), this blog will be blasphemy.Your mind is set.May God bless you, and may we not be divided as brothers and sisters.
For the rest of you, if you are seeking God’s truth, not mine, not the church’s, but God’s, I challenge you in three areas:
1.Pray.Pray for God’s wisdom and discernment.Pray that He alone will lead your mind and heart to whatever is true.
2.Read.Seek writings of Christians who think differently from you, and try to really understand their position, even if you will later choose to reject it.We never get a full picture of any issue when what we know about the other side is what those on our side tell us.
3.Listen.Seek out people who are gay, and invite them to tell you their stories.When they first knew they were gay,what kind of struggles they have experienced,if they chose to be gay, how it has shaped their view of God, etc.Do not talk to them about their sin.Just listen.This may be a difficult one, because they may not be willing to share their stories with us.If not, it is probably because they perceive us as judgmental and closed-minded.Maybe we are . . .
The apostle Paul clearly states that women should be quiet in church.How do we know this is not God’s mandate for our society?We pray for God’s wisdom and discernment.We read what women in ministry advocates have to say.And we seek out God-called women and invite them to tell us their stories.We witness the Spirit of God moving in and through their lives.How do we know slavery is not acceptable for our society?Likewise.Get to know people.People of all races, male and female, Republican and Democrat, Episcopalian and Southern Baptist.Heterosexual and Homosexual.Listen to them.Understand them.Love them.
CONCLUDING THOUGHTS
Truth is absolute.No one human being has all of it, but truth is not based on what we believe or on a democracy of belief.Truth is not even based on the Bible.On the contrary, it is the Bible that is based on Truth.Truth is.There is no incompatibility between Science and God.God is the Creator of all of nature and its laws.Thus nothing in nature is in itself incompatible with Him.Human scientists sometimes get things wrong.Human Christians sometimes get things wrong.But true science and its Creator are always perfect Truth.I see it as my challenge on this earth to responsibly seek Truth in all things, and to readily admit that there is much I will never know, especially on controversial issues that divide even God’s people.I certainly do not have all the answers on this issue.I write, not to divide, but to challenge, because there are millions of people in our paths daily that Jesus has called us to love, not in word, but in heart.Sexual orientation alone is not a sin in the eyes of God.Of this I am most certain.
Sexual orientation is neither a behavior nor a lifestyle.It is a basic human instinct which can be denied for a time, but cannotand need not be “cured”.I blog to challenge our thinking, realizing at the same time that with issues such as this, most of us are so set in our opinions that no blog will penetrate our hearts.Forget this blog.Forget my words.But please open your heart on this subject, just enough to hear the occasional voices of the other side.Pray for your gay coworker daily (better yet, your gay son or brother), until you find yourself truly loving him, not flippantly, but compassionately.Then go for coffee, and invite him to tell you his story.Don’t tell him you don’t want him to go to hell.Don’t tell him you love him but hate his sin.Just be quiet and listen.
13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
May only God's truth be gleaned from my writings. Selah.
This blog is not meant to be representative of the views of this website or of my own church.
Added later: With so many comments, you may not have time to read all of them. For some personal testimonies, scroll to the following comments:
Christian Woman with Gay Nephew: July 14, 2008, 7:39pm Christian Gay Man (age 20s): July 17, 2008, 10:02am Christian Lesbian Grandmother: July 17, 2008, 12:52pm Married Christian Woman who left homosexual life: July 17, 2008, 2:13pm Christian Intersexed Man (age 30s): March 14, 2009, 8:58pm
Other personal stories are welcome, anonymous or otherwise. May God use all our stories for His glory!
A dear friend "confessed" his sexuality to me several years ago. I still this person. It did nor change how I feel. I DO believe however as you say, I will love him Steve, but not his sin! How could I turn my back? He feels as I am the only link he has to God. I need to convinse him otherwise.
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. 22:39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
I have a variety of friends, gay and straight. They are exactly that FRIENDS who I hold dear to my heart. I do look at them as black, white, straight or gay, They are my friends. I don't have converations with people who sit in judgement as to who is sinning and who isn't. I do not feel it is my place to judge, my place is to love.
I loved this blog and I sure did need it. I will be adding a blog for friends only & I will see how many still accept me for who I am after they learn what I am going to tell them. Maybe I will someday, but not right know.
A blog which has been written with a balance. I was wondering about this topic because a friend of mine asked about this. While I agree with you sexual orientation may not be a sin, I feel if two gays are united together for sexual act, it should be considered a sin. More over Jesus Christ himself says, even if we think in our minds (hearts) some thing wrong, should be considered a sin.as written in Mat 5:28 ( But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ) So I think If people are gay by instinct, we can not do anything but if they want to get married or be united as a couple then it is some thing else, because, marriage was instituted by God for the purpose of reproduction of human race in a well disciplined way. By being gays one can not achieve this purpose. Therefore it may not be natural.
How ever it requires further discussion to understand what Jesus would do if someone went to Him with a gay orientation.
Great post. I enjoyed the video, too. I had forgotten that song. Knowing the facts behind it now, it takes on a truly significant meaning...as do most of the songs we sing when we understand the heart of the writer.
Thank you for taking a stand and documenting your position so clearly. You have a good ability to articulate these tough subjects.
One thing I want to certainly "second" is your call to action. I even go so far to say that if someone hasn't spent time discussing life with a person who is in this lifestyle, then I don't really care what their opinion is. If they have indeed spent time walking alongside a person, then we can converse. As you point out, even the founder of Exodus, a ministry I worked with for three years, said that there is no "cure". However, he does believe that there are many people who make bad choices and get caught in a lifestyle they don't like and feel trapped. How many of us have felt that way about part of our lives?
My next point will be read wrong by a lot of people. It is hard to discuss with a few words. You touched on it on your list from the Bible. If we truly want to believe that everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally, then that list has to be applied to each of our lives. If so, then I am the chief of sinners (where have we heard that?). If so, then who amongst us can be saved? We are not saved by keeping the law, but only through His grace. My point here is that EVEN IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WE ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. HIS BLOOD, HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION PAID THE PRICE FOR ALL OUR SINS, PAST AND FUTURE! IT IS ONLY BY HIS GRACE THAT WE CAN BE SAVED. One sin is not greater than any other sin. They all separate us from God. Praise God we are not measured on the basis of our ability to keep the law!
So my advice to people who think their gay brother or sister is a greater sinner than they are - get over it. If you can't find a way to love one another, then you have an issue with God. Go get that plank out of your eye before we address your brother or sister.
BTW, I would like to know your thoughts on gluttony. That seems to be rampant in our churches today. Perhaps it is time we started making those people feel less than human, too. (sarcastically stated)
Last comment for now...I do believe you are dead on with your thoughts about sexuality confusion in our society. Perhaps over another glass of tea we could discuss this further. I personally think if people would turn off the tv, spend the time loving their family and neighbor, we would see a whole different complexion in our society and perhaps less confused people...but who will do this?
Patti, you are a good friend! Your comment highlights the greatest tragedy in this entire issue: that so many gay people believe their perception of the church's assessment that, God does not love them. I will pray for your friend, and you are welcome to share this blog with him if you think it would help.
Mstovall, I love you! :)
Juan, I agree there is no distinction between homosexual adultery and heterosexual adultery. Adulterous behavior is sin. Your dad was a wise man!
Bestemor, thank you, my friend!
Megan, a prayer for you tonight.
Ragland, your view is a popular one. Thank you for sharing it!
Voice, wow! What excellent and thought-provoking comments! I love your spirit, and the tea will happen one day!
Balanced blog Kathy, a viewpoint strongly defended. I would have to agree that a person's sexual orientation is not itself sinful, nor should homosexual persons ever be condemned or excluded from participation in a church. Where I struggle with this blog is with the insistence that folks are being condemning, just because they believe the bible's apparently clear wording on this issue represents God's mind (or did I misread). Most Christians I know, whose faith is a BIG part of their lives (i.e. living by the Spirit), are very kind to homosexuals, even having homosexual friends!! We do!
I believe the offense to many Christians isn't the lifestyle itself, but the advocacy of the lifestyle.
An aside, I'd like to know how you defend a statement such as "Homosexuality as we think of it today was nonexistent in both OT and NT times", particularly in light of Solomon's observation (inspired by the Spirit of God) that "there is nothing new under the sun" (history repeats itself), plus pure logic....why would this "pure instinct" be a new phenomenon??
ps... Many have successfully come out of the homosexual lifestyle. You'll find some of their testimonials are here.
I loved this piece and how you have identified your purpose to speak out for those who are denied entry into Christian fellowship because they are 'different'. This is a lovely balanced-insightful-scholarly article and reminds me of the writing of one of my fave writers, Philip Yancey. I am right on the same page with you, Girl. I have a friend in our particular faith community who is 'accepted' because he is a gifted musician and a great teacher-- we'd be lost without him in our fellowship and others recognize that, thankfully. He is much beloved because he is so naturally loving and kind. I believe he has had a huge impact on our church community's perspective on homosexuality because I have not heard any recent demeaning allusions to same-sex marriage (the big bugaboo in our previous church community).
Kathy, I wonder if you would allow me to copy your article (with any byline you choose) to my blog Most Amazing Prophecies in the Comox Valley? If you are not comfortable with this, please let me know. I just think it would be of value for me to get out there on my blog for my particular readership (not huge, but decent).
Mike, thank you for your comments. I can vouch for your love for all people. It shows!
As for the condemnation question, my point was not that a literal interpretation of Scripture is condemning (did I understand you correctly?), but that those who do condemn usually do so based on a literal interpretation of the Scripture. This is not a blog against literal interpretation, but I pointed out that I believe our mode of interpreting Scripture very strongly correlates to our positions on homosexuality.
I didn't understand your comment: "I believe the offense to many Christians isn't the lifestyle itself, but the advocacy of the lifestyle." Can you explain what you meant by that? If the "lifestyle" is not offensive, why would "advocating" it be offensive? And what exactly is "the lifestyle," and what do you mean by "advocating," just so we're on the same page.
Your other question: I carefully said "Homosexuality as we think of it today" was nonexistent in OT and NT times. I certainly agree with you that homosexuality has existed in every culture of every time in history. It's the culture around it that has changed. There is no evidence that OT or NT cultures had any concept of same-sex couples being monogamous partners. They more likely married the opposite sex and had same-sex relationships at the same time, without the taboos of our culture.
I'm glad you posted the Exodus link again. There are indeed many testimonials posted on such sites, and I believe they are written in sincerity. Anyone, homosexual or heterosexual, can, for a time, commit to celibacy or to whatever he believes God must want him to do, expecially when under immense social pressure to do so. Eventually however, maybe 2 years later, maybe 5 . . ., those commitments are likely to crumble, leaving the gay person feeling like a failure. See my story above about the Exodus member adopted by Focus on the Family, who quickly disappeared from the ministry after being spotted in a gay bar again a couple of years later. I have listened to many such stories, and even some of gay couples who met each other in the ex-gay ministries. I have never heard anyone look back 5 years of more and say he was cured, although I certainly can't say there's no such story. The concept of ex-gay is a flawed one. Can you imagine being cured of heterosexuality? As Christians we have to move from seeing homosexuality as something that needs to be cured, and accept it as the way some people are made. Then we can share the Gospel with them in a meaningful way.
Cynthia, thank you for your very encouraging words! You are very welcome to repost my blog, as long as you include a link either to this blog or to my profile page, as identification. Thanks, and I'll add your readers to my prayers for this blog! May God word as He sees fit!
Your blog is thought provoking and will inevitably warrant a carefully thought out and well documented response. Regretfully, no matter where one stands on this issue, orientation, or understanding of "diversity," you have chosen a polarizing topic.
Your wording reveals quite clearly your heart's desire to attempt to cross-pollinate centuries of culture, principle, and traditional thinking. However, I am concerned that there is ambiguity in your choice of terms, there is a clear slant on your "truth", and your thesis is the predictable antithesis of those in the Church world who do not hold to your "truth".
My love and compassion for all, including the gay community, is evident in my attempt to always listen with an open heart to those who are positioned on a different side of the spectrum from me. My wife is involved at National level in understanding and evaluating "diversity" in the workplace as part of her career and we dialogue much, as a Ministerial family, regarding her findings and what we can learn regarding "diversity" and the Church world.
Even more so, I have a gay brother who is just as active in the gay community as I am in the Christian community! I love my brother dearly and would give my life for him! When visiting NYC, I spend ample time with him and do not "shun" him nor keep him from my children. That too is an extreme, unfair, biased, and unkind approach many on the other side of the spectrum take toward the Church. Not all Churches shun, not all Churches see "sin," not all Churches cling "to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible ... with Jesus’ life and ministry."
Consequently, my dialogue with him is quite in-depth and candid as we both attempt to identify if ever "oil and vinegar" (the Church community and the Gay community) will ever mix though they share the same bottle! In other words, will the Church and the gay community ever come to terms on definitions, scholarly translations (not politically correct ones), gender identity, human sexuality, God, sin, and absolutes? Will either side ever accept what the other is saying? Will either side honestly sacrifice conviction in order to accommodate love and unity?
Dr. Wilson, thank you for your thoughtful response, especially this: "Not all Churches shun, not all Churches see "sin," not all Churches cling "to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible ... with Jesus’ life and ministry." You are so right that there are churches that do not take such a position, and I apologize if I gave the impression that all do. When I refer generally to "the church," I am speaking of the vast majority, but certainly, as you pointed out, not all. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say THANK YOU to those churches who already get this!
Your brother is fortunate to have such open dialogue with you. I will pray for him. Is he a Christian? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "gay community," but "gay" and "Christian," as I stated in my blog, are not antithetical.
"Predictable antithesis"? LOL Allow me to think that you are just a very intelligent reader! :)
As for the slant, definitely so. Slant, not in the sense of untruth, but in the sense that I am more interested in presenting the position I believe to be truth than in presenting the opposing viewpoint. Such are opinion blogs, right? :) Pastor Tim, however, has written a good blog from the other position: http://www.mychurch.org/blog/214173/Is-Homosexuality-Okay-It-is-isnt-it-Or-is-it
You said "those who do condemn usually do so based on a literal interpretation of the Scripture." I would say folks who actually condemn these people do so based on that literal interpretation PLUS other motives, be it personal insecurity, pride, fear, etc. A literal interpretation of scripture by itself does not necessarily lead to condemnation. I say this b/c there are plenty of delightful Christians who interpret God's words literally who do not condemn. (Of course, condemnation of the lifestyle does not equate to condemnation of individuals, but you addressed that already.) You obviously know that folks who post a response here that is less than 100% in agreement w/your position are not necessarily condemning.
By offense being taken against advocacy of the lifestyle, I was referring to efforts to force approval of the lifestyle on people who disagree on scriptural grounds. I love my gay neighbors, they'll tell you that. But if a law was passed that mandated my children would have to attend classes in which they were taught that the gay lifestyle was simply another healthy alternative to heterosexual monogamy, then I would have a very big problem. (There are plenty of advocates who would indeed advocate for this, though I simply use it as an example!)
Regarding those who fall back, I've known guys formerly with an addiction to porn slip back. Perhaps we put too much pressure on ex-homosexuals to be new, different, "normal", etc. After all, if they slip back, God is discredited, and their salvation is a lie. (tongue in cheek) I'm not saying they need to be "cured", but I also believe in God's power to change anyone. He changed me after all.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. God bless! ~mike
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I can see your position and respect it, as probably the one most Christians today would adopt, although it is not the position I have taken here. Your position, if I understand correctly, says Homosexuals are living in sin, but we love them and treat them with respect. I am saying, Homosexuality is not in itself a sin, and we love them and treat them with respect.
Again, I had no intention of implying that all who call themselves inerrantists are condemning of homosexuality. My blog was written to those who look at homosexuality as inherently sinful, and my observation is that almost all of these people happen to be inerrantists, which makes perfect sense, does it not? What would keep us from seeing these truths except that we believe Scripture is telling us it is wrong?
I suspect we are also using the word "condemn" somewhat differently. When I say condemn, I am often using that interchangeably with "assert as inherently a sin." If I believe the homosexual by nature is living in sin, I am in that sense condemning him. That doesn't mean I say mean things to him or I treat him badly.
I'm still not sure what the homosexual "lifestyle" you talk about is. As for the advocacy, the position you take only makes sense from the "homosexuality is wrong" point of view. All of us advocate what we believe in.
And the "falling back" also comes from your position. If, as I have asserted here, homosexuality itself is not a sin, then to realize that ex-gay programs do not work would not be "falling back." Backsliding necessarily involves sin.
Mike, you and I are not together on this issue. You, however, have much great company on your side, and I respect all who believe as you do, as that is how most of us have been taught (self included). I'm glad you are kind to your neighbors, and I know you well enough to know that you are! Love to you, brother!
Just a quick comment...I am not sure heterosexual monogamy is the scriptural approach...there are plenty of men who had multiple wives...one that we even say "was a man after God's own heart"...plus there are commandments that direct the marrying of one's brother's wife if he dies before she is able to give him kids, etc...
Let's face it...the preferred way, God's way, is a world without sin...we only get there through his grace...has nothing to do with lifestyle...
Side note: the comment Mike makes about laws being passed to teach kids certain subjects is why the church needs to be the church and the government not interfere with raising our kids. If Mike doesn't want his kids taught such things, then I want him to have alternatives. Another subject for another time, perhaps.
LOL, Voice. I agree that OT law is not the place to learn about monogamy! Again, however, from a combined cultural and Biblical perspective, I suspect you would agree that monogamy (unless called to celibacy) is what God desires of us in this culture? Sexuality was a much looser concept in the OT cultures.
Cathy Hi ! I am filled with compassion and concern towards the sexually oriented brothers and sisters now. I have learnt to love them, even as Christ loves them. I am sure your blog is going to have a great impact on the church leaders and people who are going to read.
Hi Kathy-- I'm loving the dialogue of commenters almost as much as the blog post itself!
I've set up your blog to be reposted on my Most Amazing Prophecies for the Comox Valley blog on Wednesday, July 16th. I'd like to include your surname in the credit, if that is okay with you... I can't find it, though. I've linked it back to this blog. I am so grateful for the privilege of doing this reposting... is it possible to do that with other blogs of yours? You seem to express so much of what I believe, but you say it in a much more organized and elegant/eloquent/scholarly way.
Hi Cynthia! I will go visit your blog, and will keep in my prayers as I pray for this one. I don't use my full name on-line, but a link to my profile or blog will serve well as identification. And, yes, you may do the same with any of my other blogs, as long as they are linked the same way! Writing is best when shared! Thank you for your kind words, and may God bless and use the sharing!
That is fine with me Kathy (re your use of your first name only) and I am just so excited to be allowed to share your fine writing from my blog as well.... I am going away to camp at the end of July and plan to schedule to repost about four of your blogs during that time.... thank you soooo much! I will let you know which ones I post.
Good Blog! I may not always think the way you do or the way others act or the way I act at times we are all sinners and Jesus said if you broke one of the Comments you have broken them all.And we are saved by Grace and should work together to spread the Good News Jesus died for us sinners and we need to take Him into our hearts. So with that I love you sister!And someday I hope to be there in Glory with you where we all our just children of The Most High!!!
I have read your research paper. Because your hermenutics are flawed it is natural that your positions to follow will be flawed as well. Though I can sincerely appreciate the intent of your writing, I can not accept it as truth. Humans are depraved. We are all sinners. The very thing that I condemn somebody in, I myself may end up doing. I don't judge anyone nor do I hate anyone. If someone is gay, then they are in sin. They need to repent of it. I have unbiblical feelings too, but I supress them and die to self. It is the same for people with homosexual tendiencies. They must supress them and repent of them. To accept their behavior is to water down the holy standards of God. I accept them as people. They are not less than anyone in my opionon. As you have so aptly pointed out, they have made and are making great contributions to society. I agree that opinions change over time and hard line positions soften over time, but this is just too obvious to accept as true. One thing that really jumped out at me in your presentation was the discounting of the ability to change. There are miracles and the Holy Spirit regenerates us and makes us a new creation. There is power to change, and if there is not, then we are all kidding ourselves that God is real. It is a nice and sweet notion that homosexuality is just misunderstood and that God created the homosexual that way, and that we should embrace and accept it. But, to do so compromises the integrity of the Scriptures and the holiness of God. We are to love everyone, and to share the gospel of them. I personally think that though you think your doctrine preaches acceptance and love it actuality it preaches hopelessness. "If we can't change it we might as well accept it." I don't buy it, and I don't accept it. If I am wrong, I pray that the Holy Spirit will soon teach me the truth. I am not perfect and do not profess to know the mind of God on everything. I do love you though. I love your scholarship and your passion. You have been a blessing to me personally and want to go on record of saying that I think you are great! I just don't agree with you on this.
Todd, thank you for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. Of course I posted this knowing it would miss a few amens! :) You said "Because your hermenutics are flawed it is natural that your positions to follow will be flawed as well." This statement is a kind of summary of the two polar positions of Scripture interpretation, isn't it? What both sides opine of the other. As I stated in the blog, those who adamantly refer to themselves as inerrantists will find the entire premise of this blog erroneous. That was expected, and I respect and understand that position.
I agree we are all sinners, saved solely by God's grace. But I do not believe being born heterosexual is a sin, do you? But homosexual is?? When did you choose to be attracted to females? Or was it just a part of who you were?
Do I believe God can change people? Of course! Any time and any way He chooses. I also believe that most of the time He chooses to let nature take its course. If, for example, I pray to be two inches taller, He is the omnipotent Creator of the Universe and can certainly handle such a feat, but it is not likely that He will. I think if you will personally listen to 10 homosexuals' stories, face to face, you will question your position on orientation change.
I always enjoy hearing from you, and I have to love a guy who disagrees but still gives a star! :) Thanks, Todd, for not just skipping over such a controversial blog! If we took a MyChurch vote, I'm sure your side would win!
The Psalmist wrote: "In sin did my mother conceive me." In other words we inherited a sin nature. Because man kind has rejected the knowlege of God He has given us up to vile passions. It doesn't matter the way I am born. I am born a reprobrate and I will die a reprobate if I am not regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Having homosexual tendencies is not any more a sin, than me excuse the expression but it fits "a horny man." These passions must be nailed to the cross. If I walk in the Spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. To engage in homo-sexual conduct is sinful. It is the will of God that we abstain from immorality. I personally think that homosexuality is a choice, but I am not adamant on that position. If they are born that way, how is it any different that me being born with any other sinful affinity or propensity? There is no excuse for sin. Sin must be confessed as such and we must repent of that sin. God does not condemn us for our sin, but He does say to us, "Go and sin no more." I have talked with many homosexuals through out my life. I am intrigued. I understand that they are shunned by society and pay a heavy price for who they are. I personally feel like with any sin, that as long as we hold on to it and not turn from it we give place to the devil in our life and we never experience personal victory over sin. I feel that you have accepted homosexuality as being OK and rather than fight it and crucify it, you encourage others to embrace it. Maybe I am wishful thinking, but I believe God will and can change a person from the inside out. I have based my life upon this truth and experienced it's own power in my life to change. What God has done for me He can do for others as He "no respector of persons" (I hate that phrase ever since one of my teen age children asked me why God doesn't respect people?) Kathy, there is no way, I could ever malign you. Even if I think you are wrong. Please don't bring this to a vote or put me on one side or another. Yes, I am a little hard core like the Fundamentalist but I would much rather be known as a person who loves. All men will no you are my disciples if you love one another. There is enough division in the body of Christ without calling a vote! That is the Southern Baptist coming out in you! Let's just work it out and excercise forebearance.
Kathy, Here's where I am going to respectfully disagree with you. I can see no format where homosexuality can be considered in any fashion except as sin. This does no mean I will condemn or shun people of that lifestyle, but even in the process of loving them I cannot view an active gay lifestyle as anything else but sinful. In it's essence homosexuality assumes active same sex sexuality. If that is taking place outside of marriage, then there is sin, and marriage, at it's core concept is heterosexual. I still wonder if our present society is , for those not in same sex relationships, confusing preference for same sex friendships as homosexuality. It's like society assumes homosexuality is a necessary response to strong same sex friendships.
Hi Dennis! I didn't expect to bring everyone along with me on this one! Some of us are so deeply rooted in our theologies that a blog will not even leave a dent. In my experience, set opinions on issues like this one will not be changed by words, but only by having to walk alongside a loved one's struggle, which brings us to a personal crisis of belief and years of prayer and study. I will respond to you only that sexual orientation does not necessarily assume active sexuality. The unfortunate name we have given it makes that difficult to digest, but there is truth there nonetheless. If a Christian man marries at 25 still a virgin, was he not heterosexual at age 24? Your final comment I am completely unfamiliar with and cannot even fathom it, although I know some of the younger generation freely experiments with both sexes, which is certainly a sad scenario. Thank you, Dennis, for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I always like hearing from you.
hello Kathy.I'm interested in this topic.I attend PFLAG meetings where I live as a support group.My brother is gay and happy with his life choices.He is married to a guy named Bob.I have struggled for many years with who and what i am sexually.I find that I have had a hard time finding support in the church or among my christian friends.I have had only one sexual experience with a woman.It was terrible.She was on drugs was abusive and veryu controlling.The cops were called and she was taken away.she still writes me on facebook and I delete her messages.I really want her to leave me alone. To be hoest I want to be closer to God and I feel that in order to do that I have to put these feelings that I have for woman away.I have to ignore them or not act on them.To be honest I do enjoy both sexes.At this point in my life I don't really want to be with anyone.Cause anyone that I've been with has hurt me alot.Can we talk on this subject sometime?
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly…
Proverbs 16:25 – There are many ways that man tries to justify these sins, the Word of God, says that the ways that man sees as right lead only to death.
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall be joined to his wife: and they shall be one flesh
The simple fact that much of your argument is based on Science, the same Science that believes that all we see around us, the wonderful works that God has created, came about by the "Big Bang," is disturbing to me. The Word of God clearly states that homosexuality is a sin, and God hates sin, and loves the sinner, pardon the cliche. But it also displeases God when his children shun sinners for any reason. Homosexuality is a CHOICE, there is no way around it, and as much as I want to see as many people make to heaven as possible, sin cannot enter in to the presence of a HOLY GOD!!! I want to warn you anytime that you base something more off of science than the Word of God, that is very dangerous!
Here's the 'hit the hornet's nest with a stick comment' - call it a slippery slope argument if you want:What if 'science' found that the desire to rape and mutilate children was 'biological' and 'not a conscious choice'? Would we start accepting that? Make scripture fit that fact? Of course not (I hope!).
My point? I don't like trying to fit in the 'science' into something that can be backed up fully by Scripture (and this comment coming from a scientist!!!)
There was a lot written here in this blog, and a lot responded. I think it comes down to this.
The ACT is a sin - heck, much like the heterosexual counterpart, the LUSTING in one's HEART over the ACT is a sin (Jesus said it about a man and a woman, it'd hold true here).
But, so is HATING someone - you're a murderer.
So is stealing, or lying...etc.
We accept alcoholics, drug addicts, wife-beaters, ex-cons, etc. into a church community. We should accept homosexuals.
But it's something obvious I think we overlooked here:
In order to "REPENT" (turn away from) a sin, we have to turn towards God and STOP those sins.
I can't keep drinking or doing drugs or stealing or beating my wife and say I'm a Christian - because I haven't REPENTED of my sins - I'm sinning!
If there has been no repentance, then how are we supposed to act? Well, we should be guiding them by scripture and leading them by that.
Take the heterosexual example again: a new 'couple' comes to your church and they're not married, but you know they have a kid and are living together. Or what about the single guy that's got a new girl every week? One of the sins they're committing is the SAME sin that the homosexual person is - ADULTERY (sex outside of marriage) as the homosexual person.
But how do we treat that? Well, we try to get them to get married or stop having pre-marital relations (even though some are not CALLED to be married).
The problem lies in the fact that there is no recourse for a homosexual to 'allow' them to commit those acts within God's laws. So they must be celibate.
But guess what? All the single folks at your church have to be celibate too! If you're going to condemn a homosexual for their sexual acts, you should condemn the single heterosexual person at your church for the same sin (adultery, even lusting in one's heart).
My point is not to tell where to condemn, but to stop the hypocrisy in this 'special case' of sin that many have turned it into.
Dear Kathy, I respect you as a person of intelligence and compassion. I also respect you for attending a rather strict part of the Body of Christ, while bravely holding to your own views. I admire the strength of character that opts for peace in the midst of such cognitive dissonance, because you realize that perfection is not found anywhere in Christ's precious Church. However, please don't be mad at me if I believe that your blog fails the test of logic on so many levels.
The first failure is that of guilt by association. You prepare our minds to accept homosexuality by comparing it with some pretty silly ideas in church history. That is a misleading and inconsistent argument.
Secondly, you fall into the same trap as the homosexual movement itself, in insisting that a genetic marker for eye coloring is the same as that for a behavior. Yet, more recent scientific commentary basically exposes that myth for what it is. Positive, negative and even value-neutral behavioral characteristics such as artistic genius, criminal behavior or hand gestures do definitely have a genetic source, but are also influenced by environment. We do not have a choice in eye-color. We do in behavior.
Again, you have compared apples and oranges in your scripture list to try and "classify" homosexuality in the same genre as ceremonially clean and unclean laws from the OT and Paul's cultural comments about hair length. While I understand the point that you are trying to make, it manages to sidestep New Testament scriptures which directly contradict that very classification, by declaring homosexuality to be something that would keep precious people out of heaven (1 Cor 6:8-10; 1 Tim 1:10).
Another failure is addressing the wonderful success of groups like Exodus, who point to many examples of people who have changed from homosexual behavior. Giving one or two examples of failure does not prove anything. We need to examine all the facts, not just those that support a preconceived conclusion.
Lastly, I agree with you on something. There are those who are homosexual in orientation, just as there are those who are artistic in orientation, criminal in orientation and even oriented towards many other characteristics both positive, negative and neutral. Plenty of those who are homosexual in orientation simply choose not to act out their procivity, just as those with artistic genius, criminal potential or even value-neutral traits choose not to act upon such impulses. It is still a choice.
We cannot blame behavior on a genetic marker alone. That is simply not good science. Claiming that genetic markers create a non-choice makes science a lie of political convenience, and ignores the voices of those scientists who disagree with that conclusion.
However, science cannot give us the answer to values. Science cannot excuse good or bad or neutral behavior by genetic markers. Where then do we get our values? If we get them from science alone, we are all in trouble. If we get them from the concensus of non-believers, then we are all in trouble.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christianity will be apologizing for a great many things some day. I hope that Christians someday do repent of their mistreatment of homosexuals. However, I do not believe that we should apologize for the theological definition of homosexuality as sin. I think that is pretty clear throughout the entire Bible as a statement of fact in both the OT and NT.
A principle of biblical interpretation is that the plain meaning is the main meaning. The problem with intelligent people is that they can find more ways to reason their way around clear biblical statements. To pat someone on the head and say that we now accept their sin without need for repentance, when God does not, does them a real disservice. Our concern ought to be to seriously search the Scriptures as Bereans on this topic, not with prejudice aforethought, but with a teachable heart that is willing to change even if it seems disgusting to us when we confront the truth.
Having done that, I do not believe that the orientation towards homosexuality is any more of a sin than the orientation towards adultery or fornication. However, I conclude that the act and thought of homosexuality are equal sins to the act and thought of adultery or fornication.
With that personal conclusion, I am now thank God for those who find compassionate and loving ways of helping these precious souls re-orient their lives heavenward.
To all my fundamentalist and inerrantist brothers: I love you, I understand you, and I have walked where you walk. And because of this, this blog was not written for you. It is by nature of a part of your core belief structure that any idea outside your box is to be quickly stamped out without any thought or consideration, and I understand that you truly believe your mandate is of God. May He bless your work and use You as He so chooses. With Christian love, however, I must respond, for the sake of my other readers, that there is blindness in your view. I write a 6000 word blog, and you are only able to hear 5 words. Why? Because my assertion goes against something you believe is defined in the Holy Scriptures. There is much that is not settled by Scripture alone, and much that Scripture was never meant to answer. With Scripture alone we can condone slavery, polygamy, killing our backtalking children, and keeping our women in veils like the Muslims do. With Scripture alone we can condemn all those who work on Sundays, all those who eat shrimp, all those who envy, all those who gossip, and most who divorce. An inerrantist will never see the problems brought on by looking olny to Scripture for every answer in life. Again, with love (and I mean that), it appears that such ideology worships the Bible. I love the Bible because it points me to the One who alone is worthy of my worship, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but I do not worship it. The Bible is not without discrepancies, and it was never meant to be used as the book of life rules for which many are trying to use it. I do not plan to argue point by point with literalist thinking, as this would be pointless. We are different to the very core of this issue, not about homosexuality, but about Biblical interpretation, and no amount of talking will change that.
This blog was written out of love for two groups of people: 1. those who love someone who is gay and have been confused by the church about what it all means, and 2. those who are gay and whose lives may be better if someone they love happens to find my blog. My defense here is solid, but not posted for the sake of argument. It is posted to bring families together to understand each other in a way that the church as a whole has missed. It is meant to aid those who are hurting to look to beyond the church and the oft quoted passages of presumed condemation, to the face of Jesus. It is meant to let them know that the perfect God and the imperfect church are not one and the same.
Wyatt, my friend! Know what I love about you? Your consistency! You know exactly what you believe, and you speak out! You are the textbook inerrantist with Jesse Helms dependability. We know where you stand before you stand! Semper Fidelis fits you well! Thank you, Wyatt, for adding your position to this discussion, and thank you for being kind enough to give me a star! :)
Nathan, welcome to MyChurch! What a beautiful family! You write with intelligence, and I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts here. The Word of God is Christ Himself, so I am in agreement with you that basing an opinion on anything outside of Him would be foolish. However, science was created by God. God's creation is perfect, and pure science is perfect. The discrepancies are all human. Human scientists make errors. Human Christians make errors. But God and science are in perfect harmony. I'm happy to meet you, Nathan, and hope to see more of you in the blog conversations!
Growing, thank you for your comments. You also speak with intelligence, and make some good points, especially the final one, that even if one chooses to continue calling a person's sexual orientation a sin, why do we make it the sin above all sins? Where we differ is in classifying orientation as sin. And I don't think any exchange of words is powerful enough to change minds on that. Only God's Spirit and personal crisis of belief, brought about by love. Thank you for sharing! With respect.
Grant, I always value your intelligent perspective and respect your wisdom whether we agree or not. You are right to point out that my perspective (in general, though certainly not on this issue) is deeply rooted in in a very conservative religious background, coupled with having always lived in the South. Thus, as Dr. Wilson pointed out, I perceive that "all churches" are as the churches in the South, which I know to be untrue. You are wisely theologically safe as long as you consider homosexuality a sin, a line that is difficult to cross, but it must be and will be crossed one day. Thank you for adding to my blog!
Maddie, Thank you for mentioning PFLAG. PFLAG is a great organization for anyone who has a gay loved one, whether family or friend. It's always helpful when dealing with difficult circumstances to commune with others who share your experience and to learn from each other.
I hurt for you as I read your post, and I have spent much time in prayer for you since first reading it last night. During periods in my life when I have felt alone, it affects every part of my being. Everyone needs the love of family and friends. Loneliness for some can become so great that they are ready to settle for any relationship, usually sexual, because those are the easy ones for a woman to attract quickly (although they don't last). Maddie, sex is always the wrong answer regardless of which gender. Sex does not find love. It only confuses and depresses. If you have not read my blog on Love and Sex, you might glean something from reading it. My most loving advice to you is to join a couple of interest groups and attend them regularly. Friendships can come slowly, but the slower they develop, the stronger they usually are. What are you interested in? There may churches in you area (not necessarily yours) that have some special groups also. Find them, and get involved, even if you don't make friends immediately.
As for the woman in your past, I wonder, Maddie, if you have really put her in the past. Sometimes we say we want someone to leave us alone, but our actions speak differently. By your own testimony, it is obvious this is not a healthy relationship in any way. My advice to you is this: If you have not recently done so, send her a Facebook message that you are moving on in your life and do not wish to hear from her again. Then, immediately, now, today, block her on Facebook. No excuses, Maddie. You are ready to move on, or you are hanging onto her. Let her go.
I will continue to pray for you as God brings you to mind. And you are welcome to message me privately if it will help to share your story. I will quietly listen and pray.
Shannon, I love the visual! :) Of course, my response is that everything in life is not black and white, especially from our limited human understanding, but many of us need to make such clarity. I appreciate your personal story, and will not detract from it. There is without a doubt much sin that involves sex, regardless of gender, and to play games with that is extermely harmful both emotionally and spiritually. I am glad you have found the peace God had for you. Thank you for sharing yourself with us so personally.
Inevitably a post like this generates many messages sent privately. I just received a funny tongue-in-cheek link that's too good not to share: godhatesshrimp.com
I can see that you have spent a lot of thought and careful research with this one. While I do respect you and your position. If I may respectfully say that you assume that this is more of a matter of opinion. When its not. Yes all sexual acts outside of Gods boundaries (marriage) are sinful. But homosexuality you are not born with. Its very very different than hetrosexuality. Its never Gods plan. He calls it an abomination. And if we can ever get used to it or warm up to the idea of homosexuality being okay. Where did we as a church go wrong? Oh and in reference to the Old Testament scriptures. Those rules were what is called the old covenant. He created those for obvious sanitary reasons. I am nowhere near an expert in that matter. But when Jesus died for us, the old convenant was replaced with the new convenat. That was where we got rid of animal sacrificing, the sabbath and case laws. Remember when Peter had the dream of a net of animals coming down and Jesus saying that He had purified them all? and that it was safe for them to now eat?
And when God said to not mix the different fabrics. It was a visual sign of the Isrealites, it set them apart from every other nation. So people could just look at them and know that they were Gods people. When Jesus died, He extended His covering to everyone, to all the gentiles. So they didnt need to mix their fabrics anymore. You just had to accept Jesus as your savior and you were then Gods child. Homosexuality is a whole different story.Its not even in the same class as those rules. God did not change His mind on that..and He never will. It will always be wrong.
And about the rebellios kids being stoned to death..that was in refernce to if they tried to hit them. And hitting a parent means you are so hard and you are one step away from being a murderer. So, God through that was preventing future killings. And the uncircumsised male thing still is in affect. Except now its not a literal cutting away of the flesh. When we become saved God performs a circumision in our hearts.
And when you said that the Bible isnt the sole truth..that it was simply based on truth. Its almost hinting that it wasnt infallible. Each letter and word in their is Gods divine spoken words. They are perfect soaked in truth. In the beginning was the word (Bible) and the word was with God and the word WAS God.
There was several other things, but I do appreciate you posting this. And I wasnt trying to be in any way disrespectful.
Hi Charity! I love to see a 16-year-old who is interested in the things of God, and I have no desire to discourage you in that. Continue reading and studying, and obeying God's word as you best understand it. This is all any of us can do. I appreciate your courage to speak out and the respect you showed in doing it. Remember that all of us still have a lot to learn about God and His plans for us. Keep on living your life for Him!
One point of great importance that I have to address. Notice Charity's words, "In the beginning was the word (Bible) and the word was with God and the word WAS God." She inserted one word into that passage, and that word is in error. This passage from John 1:1 refers not to the Bible, but to Jesus Christ. Now, I'm not correcting her so I can be right. I'm correcting her because this is the most important point in this whole controversy. Many Christians much older and more experienced than Charity also confuse the Bible with Jesus. When we worship the Bible, equating it with God, there is so much that must be overlooked, so we can cover up all the errors and problems. The Bible was never meant to be worshipped. It is only in recent years that that confusion has crept into our theologies. May we somehow turn it back around and focus on our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
ok, would it be fair to say that this blog is expounding on the thought of "It's not a sin to be tempted"... and applying that to the issue of homosexuality?
You are saying that it is not a sin to be tempted with "gay" thoughts. But that it is a sin if one acts upon them?
I really fail to see how anyone can believe gays are just "mixed-up" They just don't want to conform with God's Word. Next we will be saying those who involve themselves with bestiality are just "mixed-up" People will be going to church with their horse and dogs, or whatever they "believe" is OK! Sorry, nice try but no cigar. God's Word is very clear on "perversion." Jesus also warned us about "traditions of men" which is just what I am hearing here.
God's Word is not difficult to understand. But, it is easy to "mix-up". If you care to do so!!
Golden, I strongly disagree with your point. What God's Word does say if one actually takes the time to learn about it, says nothing of the sort. In the New Testament, the words that are mistakenly interpreted as homosexual are not the same as how we would understand it today.
The word of God is the word of God , people can try and change it all they want , key word being people . The bible is crystal clear on this topic , not sure why God's children are trying to change his mind. Deadly game that your playing .
To end this debate I encourage all to read Romans 1 , 18:32 , if you still want to challenge the written word of God , than that is between you and God .
WorldLove (a rather ironic name considering your position) and Barv, read the pericope of the passage you are quoting:
1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Paul was writing upon and condemning what he was seeing. Tell me, do you think what St. Paul was damning was two gay men walking along the streets of Corinth or Rome, holding hands, looking for a nice Roman vase for the foyer of their home? No. What he was seeing and what he was rightly condemning were men walking into the local temple of Cybele, dropping some coins in the collection plate and having sex with one of her priests. What Paul is condemining in these passages has nothing to do with modern homosexual relationships.
It all comes down to the day that we die , if God is all for anal sex between a man and a man , than I guess will just all have to wait and see . I like my chances that he is not a big fan of this act .
Maybe we should ask Sodom and Gomarrah what they think on the issue, I think if they had a second chance they would have changed their perverse sexual behaviors, yes, homosexuality was just one of the perversions that went on in that area but it was the one that broke the proverbial camel's back and caused God to destroy the whole area. In the book of Revelations it states, " for without are dogs....." comparing those that commit sexual perversions as dogs and would not be able to enter into Heaven. But as with any sin, it can be forgiven and you can walk in newness of life if you repent of your sins and turn your life over to Christ. Amen.
True, I did insert that word..in error I see now. I am sorry. And I never meant to insinuate that we should worship the Bible or anything. But the Bible is His words and we are to line up everything we believe according to the Bible. If what we say contradicts what the Bible teaches, we in fact are in error, never the other way around.
And there is a lot of passages in the Bible that we will never truly understand. Passages such as Revelations we probably never be able to comprehend their full meaning until we go to heaven, and He reveals and unlocks all the mysteries to us.
But there are things that are undisputable, always will be wrong. No matter how much time goes by, no matter how much a culture changes. No matter how much the church compromises. Homosexuality is one of them. And if we as the Christians cannot see it, how is the world supposed to?
"For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." (Douay-Rheims Bible,emphasis mine)
Umm, sorry WorldLove, St. John was referring to the Book of Revelation in this passage. The Bible (at least not the New Testament) was not even in existence then, and certainly would not come into existence as a canonized and recognizable body of text until many centuries later.
God is also not a big fan of thousands of MY sins , so of course I have a lot of work to do . I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and TRY and live for Jesus , there are earthly sins that I seem to commit daily - No one can tell me if God and Jesus will forgive me for this , . I wonder if the blood of Jesus covers , a daily repeated sin , or a sinfull lifestyle?
It depends on whether or not it is a sin. Which I don't think the Bible does. It does condemn same-sex acts under certain conditions, but not as many of the people in here seem to think, under a relational context.
And for the record. Sodom and Gomorrah was judged not just because they were perverted with each other but because they lusted after and tried to act on it towards the angels. And its bad news to mess with Gods sacred.
No kidding Malleus , I think it kind of explains about how God feels when his teachings are changed in any of his books , HIS being the key word . Again I believe your dead wrong and I will stick to the teachings of God . No human will change my mind in regards to the word of God .
Malleus , do you remember the simple fishermen, you should hear how you sound . Do you walk on water and have you turned water to wine . Take that big piece of dirt out of your own eye before attacking others , you sound quite beast like .
The point is no matter how prety and nice you wrap the package, homosexuality is always wrong. He made a man and a woman, and called it good. He never went back and was like oh well it could work to between 3 men or 2 women.
And before you think me too obtuse and flippant WorldLove, I do understand your point. However, people need to be made aware of differing views rather than their own. I do not think informing people of issues regarding theology, history, and languages is in any way attacking the kingdom of God.
The whole point of of that was because our saviour could not be made from this earth. That would make him human. That was when the supernatural touched the natural. And so if you are trying to pervert that, you are going into dangerous territory. You are making something sacred into some profane act.
But regardless. It doesnt ever matter what we think, because its never should be about us. It is what God says. That is what our priorities ahould always be, never about who can win the debate. Not about who has the most answers. But if we can be obedient to God and His word.
I'd give you a hundred stars if I could. Wow. This is strong. I have a gay nephew that I love very, very much. He has been treated wrongly by "christians" who are trying to tell him how he should be, and he has been snubbed by family that don't want to be around him because of his ways. My heart breaks for him, and I continue to lift him in prayer...all I can say is God bless you for writing this.
I assume Charity, you are referring to Leviticus 18:22, are you not? If that assumption is correct, look at the original Hebrew word, tow'ebah. It is referencing a cultic violation, not a moral sin (otherwise the word zimah would have been used. This word is mostly used in the context of idolatry. Which would seem to indicate what is being condemned is not a homosexual act performed in the context of a gay relationship, but rather a homosexual act in the context of a idolatrous worship.
This interpretation is also supported I think, by the position of this passage. For example look at Leviticus 18:21and 18:23:
18:21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to make them pass through `the fire' to Molech; neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am Jehovah.
18:23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Child sacrifice to the pagan god Molech. One of the practices of Molech (like that of Cybele) involved sex with both preists of both genders. Beastality was also a part of the worship ( Molech had the body of a man and the head of a bull).
I find it rather difficult to believe that this passage is sandwiiched between these two by accident. All three are discussing and condeming the same thing, the worship of a pagan fire god. I don't believe this is a practice most gay people, and especially gay Christians are engaged in.
So, can you find me on instance where homosexuality is ever morally right?
From the Bible or from extra Biblical sources? From the Bible I would say there is a large body of evidence that indicates that when the Bible refers to eunuchs it is speaking of what we would call a gay man today (the word also meant other things as well)
If you wish to allow extra-Biblical sources I would point tothe story of the Saints Sergius and Bacchus as a counter-example.
These issues get heated, don't they? And we are all Christians! I believe debate is a healthy way to grow, as long as everyone plays fairly, respecting each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, despite disagreements. As I stated in the blog, there will be no final concensus here on this issue. The 2 schools of thought are two deeply separate, at the basic core of Scriptural interpretation. For us who debate the issue, it will not matter in the long run. We are all saved by grace, not by right or wrong opinions. For those who are struggling with this issue, however, wondering why God doesn't love them, this is a most important issue, and for their sake this blog was posted. May we debate with kindness and love, listening to each other's thoughts, and realizing that some of those who struggle are among the hundreds who are reading but not saying a word.
Thank you, Malleus, for your kind words and for your scholarly input.
Not exactly, Redman. My premise here is that homosexuality is not in itself a sin, which is a little different from what you are saying. Thanks for commenting! It's nice to see an NC man here!
Golden, I don't think you had a chance to read the blog yet, did you? I know it was long! Your thoughts are welcome.
World, Shannon, and Charity, even when we disagree, I appreciate the way you stand up for what you believe.
Bill, welcome to MyChurch! I'm sorry this blog greeted you! :) May you find some gentler blogs to enjoy tonight! Glad you're here!
Thank you, Deb, for your kind comment! Your nephew is exactly the reason I wrote this blog! A prayer for him!
Well, I dont know alot about pagan worship. I obviously need to do alot more studying and research. And I wasnt just refering to that one scripture in Levitcus. While that one sticks out as obvious. I was referencing the whole Bible and Gods heart for us. First off the eunuchs that I know of were just the unfortunate males who were captives who got castrated, while they may have been gay, I know that wasn't a God designed thing. Second, I am not sure but isnt Baccus a pagan deity? Either way it wasnt anything God put in motion. It was a human orchestrated action. Not ever Gods will.
Do you believe in your sacred consience that homosexuality is a good thing?
Just sent to me privately. This will put a knot in your stomach. Martin Luther's wish to destroy the Jewish people long before Hitler's time. Cultural attitudes toward groups of people are passed down from generation to generation until they are just accepted without question. Read his own written words:
If you have ever wondered how a civilized Christian society could be so undeniably evil toward another group of people, you only have to read these writings in which Luther demonizes an entire group of people with a black and white, fear-mongering, scripture-filled ideas. Martin Luther laid the seeds of the Holocaust when he wrote his pamphlet "On the Jews and Their Lies" in 1543. 400 years later Adolph Hitler fulfilled his wishes. All because "they are not like us"...
What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. ... I shall give you my sincere advice:
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping...
...that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf...
But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret... In my opinion the problem must be resolved thus: If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country....
And Charity, if it was not a "God designed thing", what do you make of this passage:
19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."
It is shameful to read what Luther said at that time. He was a product of his time, and although much of what he said and wrote was truly inspired by God, he was a sinful human in erring ... very serious error in this regard.
At the beginning of his career in 1543, Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career:
The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew.
But Luther expected them to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against Jews.
It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Kristallnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text.
A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career....We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-Semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.
None of this justifies what follows, but it may help to comprehend what is happening. In 1994, the Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America rejected Luther's anti-Semitic writings.
Good job lara!
And I am sorry but there is no such thing as a good gay christian. I know, you can hate me for saying that. But I am sorry. I may not know a lot, I may not be very smart. I may be young and naive. But when God shows me something is wrong. Nothing people can say will change what God said is true.
So Kathy, one last question, where do you ever find a line to draw? At what point does ones sin ever catchup and condemn you, or is God an impotent object to cause us to feel good about our weaknesses and failures. At what point do we come back into that image and likeness, or is anything and everything accepted, and there really isn't an image and likeness? I know you have the theology to understand the question. Myself, when I stumble in an area of sin I hurt and struggle. I feel the need for repentance, I seek out help. In many ways I understand this struggle all to well, I come close to the edge on this one, and I have many friends who are locked into this struggle. Very few feel good about their lifestyle, and almost all are there, not because of genetic markers, or predisposition, but because of sexual abuse. I find it interesting that you tend to focus on the "positive" formation of sexual orientation and not on the negative formation. Again I will say I do hurt for those in the lifestyle, we must love them, no one else does, but we also must love them towards the kingdom, and not excuse their sin for the "sake of the kingdom".
No Charity, I do not hate you. As a Christian I am called to love all. I just think that your youth has a lot to do with yout ignorance. I suspect that your opinion will change quite a bit as you get older.
Thank you. And your knowledge of pagan religions and history is truly admirable. But I do not want what I say on this topic to be my opinions of what I think is right or wrong. I want to be able to open my mouth and Gods words flow from it. I dont want to grow up and have what I say change unless it is God who does the changing.
Then I would advise you to dwell on God's word yourself. Ask yourself this, would a God of love, which the New Testament teaches that He is, damn people for loving?
I suspect that you will change as you grow out of the influence of your earthly father and more under the influence of your Heavenly Father.
You assume as if I have been brainwashed. I havent been isolated my whole life. I have seen the consequences of sin, including the toll homosexuality takes on a person. On a side-note, do you know that the the average homosexual only lives to be around 40-50 years old? "The fear of the Lord prolongs days, but years of the wicked will be shortened." Makes a person wonder. And God He wants us to live life, and life more abundantly.
And God is a God of love, He gave us free-will. All hell is, is a choice we make. Its the only place where God is not. When we choost to live a life without Him, He lets us live (and die) with that choice. But like He said, He is a God of love so He made a way for us to go to Heaven by that sacrifice of His son.
And I do, not as much as I should perhaps. But I do listen to my dad, but I dont just take his word for it, I also align what he says with the Bible and what my Heavenly Father says. And so far, it has all lined up.
I wasn't assuming you have been brainwashed, however having the father that you appear to have, would indeed have affected your outlook on things.
Tell me Charity, do you know the methodology that was used to attain that oft quoted statistic? The researchers used the obituaries in various gay community publications and claimed to able to use them to predict the life expectancy of gay people. This is a very bad way to attain good statistical modeling since it does not include:people whose obits were not submitted to the publication, people who were not "out", people who were not part of the community, etc.
Lara, I respect your view of Scripture and your personal experience and have no desire to change them. If God has called you out of homosexuality and into marriage and motherhood I rejoice with you in that. To deny oneself for Christ, however, does not necessarily follow your pattern. There are homosexual people who, as difficult as it is in our culture, have managed to deny themselves and live for Christ within their own sexual identities. As you well know, though, much of the homosexual scene is separate from Christ, and this kind of life surely displeases Him. Praise Him for the life He has given you! *hug*
Dennis, I'm not sure I can answer your question. I'm not sure I could draw an exact line for heterosexual people either. But we would likely agree on some things that fall on one side of the line or the other. Any kind of promiscuity, adultery, casual sex - these are sin. The club scene, drinking/drug parties, etc. associated with both gay and heterosexual subcultures are sin. To have attraction for same or opposite sex is a natural part of life and not sin.
You bring up a good question that again I am unable to answer thoroughly, that of homosexuality that follows sexual abuse. Sexual abuse of both boys and girls is a shockingly widespread phenomenon, and it surely causes all kinds of sexual confusion, some of which involves homosexual behavior, but more often seems to lead to general promiscuity. It would be inaccurate though to claim that a majority of homosexual people were sexually abused. It's a tough question, and a worthy one to discuss here, but I don't know the answers.
My positive focus is intentional. Because what I'm trying to speak to here is the church, which typically pegs all gay people as "living a sinful lifestyle." It was intentional to show the special giftedness of these people, and what they have to offer to society. It is my hypothesis that if accepted and loved by the church, the negative "lifestyle" many fall into would lessen eventually to a similar percentage as what we see in the heterosexual world. I believe the drugs, drinking, and promiscuity in which many live is due in large part to being labeled as sub-human and marginalized from the rest of society, forced to live in a sort of "underground." Many homosexual people, however, are living Christian lives that are quite similar to their heterosexual counterparts. Some are even adopting children (often unwanted ones) and living as soccer dads or carpool moms, and worshiping God together.
I am very much a believer in the concept of sin, repentance, and the need for God's forgiveness and restoration, and I believe the homosexual probably has a much more difficult struggle than the heterosexual to live a life set apart for Christ. The sin they must overcome, however, is not a sin of orientation. It is the same sin that their heterosexual counterparts must also overcome. But they must do it without role models and without the direction or blessing of the church or often even their families.
Thank you, Dennis, for such thought-provoking questions and comments. A prayer and a hug for you tonight.
Charity, I'm sure your dad must be proud of you, a 16-year-old daughter who loves him and who loves the Heavenly Father. We are all works in progress and should remain maleable in God's hands to be shaped however He chooses to shape us, but you are on the right track. Pray, study, and keep yourself pure for His service!
Malleus, thank you for sharing your vast knowledge of history!
Thank you Cathy for adding such a wonderful post. I would agree with you in your assessment. Many times gay kids have their family, friends and faith turn against them. And when these same youth turn to drugs, alcohol, and meaningless sex for solace, these same people point at this as the "consequence" of homosexuality, rather than looking to themselves as the causal agent to the behavior.
Sexual sin is not trivial. Not something to be discounted. It is serious. Jesus said that even lust for someone other than your husband or wife is a sin. It is dangerous for believers to ignore or explain away God's sexual standards.
Yes, Having a godly father who has been there for me my whole life is a precious gift that very few people have these days. Having had a Dad who not only is physically there, but also on a daily basis teaches me the Bible and is a living example of a righteous patriarch has influenced a great deal on how I think. But it was never a force-fed situation. He is trying to teach me also how to think for myself, and study to see if the things he says are true, according to Gods word.
Alright, I stand corrected on using that statistic when I didn't know how they obtained it. Thats never a good idea lol.
But I said my piece, and I guess we will all find out in heaven.
God bless you all.
And may the Truth set us all free.
-charity
Good point, Malleus. During the course of researching this blog, I read a poignant testimonial that vividly illustrates what you are saying. (I wish I could remember where I read it.) It was the story of a young gay man who was estranged from his parents and upon being diagnosed with AIDS sent his parents a letter requesting reconciliation. Days later when an envelope arrived in response, he opened it to find his own birth certificate, torn into shreds. I too have heard many such stories. This is not theology. This is reality.
Hi Steve. I totally agree that God's standards are not to be trivialized. Thank you for your input.
Charity, blessings to you, my friend!
Shannon, I for one do not see you as a hater! :)
Grant, thank you for your link. I mentioned Exodus in the blog, and we have discussed it here in the comments. I am not an advocate of the so-called "ex-gay" ministries, because they are based on the ideology that gay people are defective and need to be (and can be) "fixed", which is the erroneous view I am addressing. Yes, these "ministries" offer numerous testimonials of "cures," which are written in true sincerity, at a moment in each writer's life when they were sincerely desiring and believing in "deliverance." The problem, however, is that when we hear from these writers 5-10 years later, they have a different story. The "cure' did not work. Even if they have chosen to marry, have children, and denounce all appearance of homosexuality, they will tell us that their orientation is still alive and well. As Christians we want to say, "Yay, a victory for God." Maybe. Maybe not. I don't claim to personally know the many millions of homosexual people in the U.S. or even more across the world, so I don't doubt there may be an exception or two to my observations, but if anyone has personal testimony of someone who has been "cured" for 10 years, I would personally like to hear from that person, really. Not to prove any point, but to learn from him. These ministries have changed over the last years. Most of them have actually stopped talking about "curing" the sexuality and have stopped such ridiculous practices as looking at pictures of naked women, and hurting themselves when they think of men, and practicing doing masculine activities like football; and talk now instead about suppressing their natural sexuality and choosing behaviors that are acceptable to the rest of society. These "ministries" in my opinion are based on misguided conceptions of the Christian church. They are further confusing those who are seeking direction, and interestingly, many homosexual couples are finding their life partners in these ministries, because they are both Christain people seeking to find God's path for their lives. We need a new model, one that teaches homosexuals to live as Christians within their own orientations.
Voice, of course you are correct, and I am glad that we are not the ultimate line draw-ers! We all have and need our own personal parameters, based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we realize all our perceptions are imperfect, as we are all children of God, yet we are not in perfect agreement on how to draw our boxes. May we not be quick to judge a box we have never lived in.
I think one of the books that may be of benefit to many in here is "Prayers for Bobby". It involves a gay youth raised in a fundamentalists family who takes his own life. It is a very haunting volume due to the fact that much of the book is in Bobby's own words (for the four years preceding his death, Bobby kept a journal), the rest of his book is a journal that his mother started to keep after his suicide. While the story is tragic, I think that it does end on a redemptive note. I think that many of the people here, who are viewing this issue in some type of moral vacuum could benefit from this slim volume.
I have to admit. As you said Kathy. No, I did not read the whole blog. The mere thought of justifying such a plain and simple understanding would be waisting time. Those who would say they know the Bible so well that they understand God's Word better than God does, will have a large surprise when it comes time to meet him. Many Christians like to think we must use love and understanding or we are not true Christians. As God loves all his children. He does not like what we do at all times. If you turn your back on God. Don't think he won't return the favor. Though he is always there to hear you when you let him know you are wrong.
Jesus said in Matthew 10:15 Verily (truly) I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgement, than that city. Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 11:24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement, than for thee."
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; (see Gen 19:15-25 obvious reference) they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 17:29 But the same day Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
For those who wish to remain in the land of Sodom (spiritually speaking) there is much to pay. We must not hate those who do wrong. But we cannot encourage them. As what we say and do may certainly cost them their very souls. If they wish that. Let it be their choice. Tough love is the hardest we must learn to use. But, it's still love!!
Jesus said in Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me."
Our Lord did not come here to change the "Law" A student must learn to separate Law, statutes, and ordinance. Even our Lord did not live only in the New Testament. Those who do not understand we have no Bible without both are kidding themselves.
Jesus came as the Lamb of God (part of the Trinity) When all is said and done. God is boss. It is the Father that will decide who should continue in life and not be blotted out. Jesus is our intermediary. But don't expect him to defend perverse actions.
This is not aimed at you Kathy. You are a nice lady who wishes to be a good Christian. What I feel, I must explain is. We have a good, great God. But he will not except all in the world to come. Some fools who think they know better about God's Word will attempt to twist what I have said. Many do so to all of God's Word. That is the problem we have today. Satan is a good twister. But we must be wiser than the Serpent!! God bless!!
Indeed humans do make mistakes, but the Word of God stands. There are no mistakes in the Word of God!!! Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. I guess my biggest problem is the fact that this is all based on the assumption, by "scientists," that people are born gay. The same "scientists," that say that the fetus that is inside of a mother's womb is not a human, and therefore abortion is ok!! The same "scientists," that say that the world was put in motion by the "Big Bang," as I say basing our beliefs on the "assumptions," of scientists is risky business. The Word of God says in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be notdeceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 2 Timothy 3:12-14 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
As a church we have allowed the "worldview" to slowly redefine the way that we believe when we know that no matter what the sin, Christ stood firm, in Love, but still never wavered...
Sin cannot enter into the presence of a Holy GOD!!!!
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Golden, your quotes indicate either one of two things: (1) Homosexuality was running rampant in Jerusalem and Capernaum at that time (which the historical record does not indicate) or (2) the sin of Sodom was that of pride and cold-heartedness. Which do you think, based on the teachings of Christ, is the more logical scenario?
Also, if you wish to critique a person's argument, it is generally a good idea to read their points. Otherwise although professing to be wise, you become a fool.
Where to start? Yes, it's me again. Hope you had a good Forth of July celebration.
You've given us both barrels, so to speak (your whole argument for the Christian virtue/blessing of sodomy. It's interesting how the use of the biblical descriptor shapes the discussion in a particular way. It's supposed to do that because the Bible intends to shape and limit our thinking, to conform our thoughts to God's Word). This post has generated a lot of heat and smoke, but not much biblical light (is there any other kind of light?).
I would have a lot more respect for you if you were more honest about yourself being a liberal of the nth degree, but you portray yourself as a Christian conservative, which is deceitful. Of course, you're not as "bad" as some liberals, but all water in the liberal gutters flows down the same hill. All of the arguments that you are trying to promote were developed decades ago in a few liberal seminaries, and all of them have been met and defeated on biblical grounds by faithful Christians. There is a mountain of reading that can be done on both sides of this issue, and interestingly, none of it has found any middle ground -- likely because there isn't any. The whole drive for middle ground is one of the best methodologies that liberalism has because the establishment of middle ground always shifts everything to the left. The middle ground that is sought is always to the left of the current center.
As you know, I don't know you, nor you me. I imagine that you are as kind, sensitive, intelligent and compassionate a person in your private life as you appear to be here. Your demonstrative consideration for everyone of any belief, tradition, creed, color, sex, nationality or sexual orientation oozes with the pride of staking a superior position, no doubt you actually believe that it is. Your kindness and consideration put us all to shame, which is likely the objective. Shame is a very powerful shaper of social mores, and no one knows this better than the sodomites who have been on the receiving end of social shame since before the beginning began. It is important to see this because the sodomites are now using the politics of shame to carve out their place at the proverbial table. How does this work? Those who hold the traditional biblical position are shamed for their narrow mindedness, bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, etc. Where it used to be that homosexuality was not okay, now thinking that it's not okay is not okay. Note the reversal. It's an old ploy, except that Kathy is bringing it to new people -- and doing it in the "name of jesus." (That's not a typo because the jesus that is promoted by such antics is not the Jesus Christ of Scripture, but is a jesus of the imagination.)
Kathy, does your denomination know what you are purporting here? What is your denomination's official position on homosexuality? How about the church you serve? Have you preached this stuff from the pulpit? I'll resist the temptation to answer that myself, and wait for your reply.
You have asserted that "sexual orientation is not a sin." In fact, those words are not in the Bible, but neither is the word "Trinity." You said, "Sexual orientation is a misnomer. A person’s sexual orientation is not about sex. It is about identity." Again, you are correct. However, identity is a primary theme of Scripture, Old Testament and New. The Bible does not speak of sexual orientation because it is a false category introduced to skew the discussion in a particular direction.
Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). I'm not here accusing you of being such a liar as this, but only pointing out that Jesus knew that not everyone who thought him or herself to be faithful was in fact faithful. He repeated this sentiment in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Jesus was talking to church leaders. You are a church leader, aren't you?
The thing that makes me think that He may have been talking to you is your comment, "But orientation is not a need for repentance." However, since Christ came to proclaim and to clarify the identity of humanity as the children of God, and therefore subject to the will of the Father, the wrong "orientation" or identity is in fact THE primary need for repentance. This is not about sodomites alone, but is about every human being. Yet, you want to make an exception for sodomites, to allow them to bring their favorite sin into the Kingdom.
You also said, "These issues get heated, don't they? And we are all Christians! I believe debate is a healthy way to grow, as long as everyone plays fairly, respecting each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, despite disagreements." You have no knowledge, right, authority or jurisdiction to suggests that "we are all Christians." In fact, who is and who isn't a Christian is another primary theme of the Bible, and is strictly defended in every church as the prerogative of the elected elders alone to make such a judgment. You are well outside of any authority, not to mention responsibility, as a church officer to say any such thing. How can you possibly know! Paul challenged his own church, not by saying that all people were actually Jews because of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but by saying that "NOT all (Jews) are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (Romans 9:7). Or as the contemporary version goes, Sleeping in a garage will not make anyone into a car. What these words of yours mean is that you will consider me (us) to be Christian if I (we) will consider you to be Christian. There is an insinuation here that you and your argument for homosexuality must be accepted on the grounds of having a fair debate. It's subtle, slick and sly -- crafty, if you will. But false, that is to say, not biblical. If you will look closely, you will see that the gospel (reception of which in consultation with one's own local church elders determines one's status as a Christian) is not a matter of debate, but of proclamation.
You also said, "Herein is the crux of what divides us as Christians on this issue: Do homosexuals choose to be homosexual? Traditionalist Christians adamantly say yes, and if this were true, I would agree. Homosexuality would be a sin. If it is true, however, that homosexuality is genetically determined, much like eye color, left-handedness, tongue rolling, etc. (which is becoming more and more scientifically probable), then we are essentially saying that it is a sin for these people to be born. A homosexual person can no more deny his same-sex attractions than can a heterosexual deny his."
Allow me to respond to this crux that divides us. First, you are correct that it divides us. And second, you are correct that it is a crux (a cross). To better see the argument, let's make it more generic and ask your question thusly, Do sinners choose to sin? Any sinners, any sin. The answer is always yes. All sinners always sin by their own free choice, our own free will. We like to sin, we prefer it. As you know, we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners. Ending the behavior does not change our sin nature. If it did, we wouldn't need Christ's propitiation on the cross. In addition, all people, not just homosexuals, are born sinners, before we have "done" anything (Romans 9:11-13).
Your argument (it's not actually yours, but has been forged by many liberals before you) is seriously flawed. The genetic argument is handy because its new and most people don't understand how genetics work -- not even the scientists who are most involved with it! As with most new scientific discoveries (phrenology, for example), it is being presented to "prove" various things that are subject to political manipulation (cultural concerns). And so genetic science has been garnered by some ideologists as a foundation for sexual motivation. Granted that at the genetic level there is a motivation for sex -- reproduction. Like an oak tree in the fall, the genetic programming provides that seeds are scattered promiscuously (in an indiscriminate manner, far and wide). It is not becoming more scientifically probable that genetics accounts for specific behaviors like left-handedness or tongue rolling. My son is left handed, not because he was born that way, but because his right eye was damaged at birth. My wife was left handed all her life until her left hand would not cooperate with her, and now she is right handed. Whereas, it does account for one's biology: sex (male/female), eye color, hair color, height (not weight, that's behavioral), etc. Applying genetic science to explain homosexuality provides an example of a categorical error, confusing nature with nurture.
The behavior side of the nature/nurture paradigm falls to the nurture side of the argument (culture, social mores, etc.). All sexual expression is always a behavioral choice (rape and child molestation excepted -- but even then it is someone's choice). It is at the cultural level that God has intervened into the natural process (human history) with His supernatural Spirit to save humanity from the consequences of our natural (genetic) behaviors. Ancient Israel was part of God's cultural plan, which set Israel apart culturally, religiously and nationally from the other nations for the purpose of cultural, family and personal righteousness, the establishment of human behaviors that would "check" our natural (genetic) human desires, desires that always end in cultural destruction because they originate from sin (from Adam's sin and our own human free will). I know you don't like the word "righteousness" but it's God's word not mine, and it's important to Him.
So, are we to deny our (sexually oriented) attractions? Let's make the question more generic so that we can better understand it: Are we as Christians to deny (mortify, practice self-denial of one's body and appetites) our natural desires? It is not for you or me to answer this question, but for Scripture to answer it. The biblical answers are: Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." And, Colossians 3:5, "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." Note that Paul identifies sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desires and covetousness" as being expressions of idolatry. Therefore, wherever Scripture speaks of idolatry it similarly speaks of these things -- the very things that you said cannot be changed. Indeed, you are, in fact, arguing against the hope of the Bible for both regeneration and repentance, the hope that God will indeed change our hearts and minds, our desires and passions, to conform to His will, not our own. To have missed this is pretty serious.
But you disarm your opponents by doing it in such a kind and considerate way. Your manner is absolutely (unbelievably) tactful regarding the beliefs of others, perhaps tactical would be a better word choice. Why do you do this? Because you want others to consider your beliefs as having merit or legitimacy. As you know, like begets like. You are, as you admit, so eminently positive in your approach. ("My positive focus is intentional. Because what I'm trying to speak to here is the church") I'm reminded of the historical contribution of "Positive Christiainity" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) to the church. Have you read "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg? If not, you (all of you) should.
Why did the serpent deceive Eve rather than Adam? Why did he not go directly to the one in authority (Adam)? The serpent knew that his argument would not disuade Adam if it were presented directly to him in clear language. The serpent was more subtle (intelligent) than any other creature on earth. So, he deceived Eve, convinced her that she (and perhaps Adam) had misunderstood what God had said about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He questioned their "interpretation" of God's Word. Not surprizingly, when the argument was made by the person that Adam loved -- Eve, Adam's love, regard and respect for Eve made the argument more palatable to him. Then when Eve identified with the argument (Genesis 3:6), Adam could not deny the serpent's argument without denying Eve (her thoughts, desires and joys). Eve had made the serpent's argument against trusting God her own. Adam's error was putting his love for his wife above the Word of God. That's a very difficult lesson to learn, but note how often "love" for sodomites trumps God's plain Word on the matter.
My prayer here is that God will open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the dumb, that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves -- and that we will stop falling prey to Satan's stupid tricks. Kathy is simply wrong on this issue. She's been wrong before, and I trust that God will work her through this very important issue.
Malleus, I am not familiar with that book, but any books that tell real people's stories can be beneficial to us. There are so many out there! Thanks!
Golden, having not read my blog, it is evident that you do not understand the position expressed here. I respect your passion, but all your points have been addessed in the blog, so I won't repeat myself here.
Nathan, likewise, it is not in my interest to argue Scripture with you, but thank you for being respectful in presenting your point of view here. Abortion, by the way, although I am by no means advocating that here, is another of those hot issues that could be be justified on both sides with Scripture. It's just that we have been trained to go to one verse for that discussion. Scripture is not the end of all discussions. I invite you to read the blog linked above in the What Does the Bible Say? section if you'd like to better understand my view of Scripture interpretation. Thanks for posting.
Charity, I deleted your post of your dad's blog, as it was far to lengthy to post as a comment on someone else's blog. I invite you to post a link here, so those who want to read it can go there. Thanks!
Oh, Mr. PARoss, your post also is quite lengthy as a comment, not to mention accusatory and filled with inaccurate assessments about a blogger you obviously know nothing about. I will likely delete further comments from you if they have similar length and tone, and definitely if they attack any of my readers as this one has attacked me. Your comments so misrepresent who I am and what this blog is about that I will not humor you with any responses, but since you worked so hard at your response, I will leave this one so you can be heard. Please consider posting your own blog if you need to say more, as this blog will not tolerate disrespect or name-calling. A prayer for you, Mr. PARoss.
Christian brothers and sisters, the positive that comes from a discussion like this is that it affords us an opportunity to hear various Christian viewpoints, which helps us to better understand our own. All of us are works in progress and have lots of room to grow. Hearing other viewpoints will either alter our own, or strengthen it, neither of which is to be feared. The negative, however, is that if we are not careful, we begin to choose teams and and pit ourselves one against the other. Please don't use my blog for disunity. If it causes you strife, walk away from it, and leave it for those for whom it was written. Love to you all. We are one team.
Again treading on dangerous ground when you say, Scripture is not the end of all discussions.
Scripture is THE final authority, I take no merit in what you ro anyone else says when it does not line up with the Word of God. I can take you to several scriptures not just one that speaks against abortion. I pray that God opens your eyes to the truth before you lead anyone to an eternal destiny apart from Christ.
Satan has deceived you by planting the lie that the Holy Word of God is not THE Final Authority, be careful because soon enough you will not believe in sin, because after awhile you will justify away every sin!!
Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Not to take the place of Kathy, but a lot of what debate on this particular thread boils down to is how Scripture is translated and interperted. The word homosexual nor the word sodomite appear in the Bible.
Do you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be decieved. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
God will judge eventually.....He created Adam and Eve... not Adam and Steve! Why? to procastrinete and meake PEOPLE, not to enjoy sexual extravagance. I am a disabled man unable to function sexually but I still have the desire to do so (With my FEMALE wife) I find it even hard to think about masturbation never mind the opposite sex. Charity before me has got the answers!! I often cry myself to sleep thinking about just having a "NORMAL" sexual relationship....so dont give me your " Polititically Correct" attitude to sex and the city.......TRY BEING DISABLED before you START BEING Self riGHTEouSNess!
Reading this blog makes me realize how some people can justify anything. I have a very good friend and also a close family member who are gay. I love them dearly and do not consider their sins any more "horrible and disgusting" than any other sin. I do know what the Bible says and I know that God did not create people to be homosexuals. We have all sinned and I do not consider myself to be "better" or "more holy" than anyone. I do pray for my family member and friend every day. This life is a spiritual battle. The devil is fighting for our souls and will try any way he can to win. I have personal battles of my own. Homosexuality is a temptation for some... and just like the temptations I may face; we have to rely on God to help us not to give in to these temptations.
Stuart, I empathize with you condition. However your statement:
God will judge eventually.....He created Adam and Eve... not Adam and Steve! Why? to procastrinete (I assume you mean procreate) and meake PEOPLE, not to enjoy sexual extravagance. I am a disabled man unable to function sexually but I still have the desire to do so.
No offense, but if you wish to maintain the position that sex is soley for procreation, then you would have to acknowledge your own condition as being an offense against God. Your statement concerning desire can also be seen as being an argument for gay relationships, since their relationships are also predicated upon the notion of desire and love, not upon procreation.
After re-reading all of the various comments and thinking on this subject pretty much all day. There is one question I have. How is it a person could say God is holy, profess to be a Christian, yet be a homosexual? To me they are like oil and water. Being a homosexual is almost like saying you are either smarter or more loving than God. You are saying you have a better plan than our Creator Himself. God made one man, one woman and called it good. He did all the creating He meant to in those 7 days. Anything that was put in motion after that period of time was human based. Which means, it is in error. Ok, I can now see your point Malleus. In the original language their may have never been the term homosexual. Having said that, God exalted only this one system. a marriage between a man and a woman. That is Gods plan, anything else in contradiction to that is not from Him. It needs to be surrendered to Him. Its just like anything else that we struggle with that is not His will. We need to confess it as sin, reject it, repent from it, turn and embrace our Holy, loving and wonderful God.
34 Righteousness lifts up a nation, but sin is a disgrace in any society. Proverbs 14:344 For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. Ezek 18:4 (NLT)Kathy I took the time to read the whole blog including “God did not write the bible, Homosexual Animals , I even read about Soulforce and Helen Barrett Montgomery I choose to take the position of being factual about the other side of this coin. There is an agenda on the part of the homosexuals and I would like the opportunity to point out a few of those things.First let me address love. Biblically, love is defined not as a license to legitimatize sinful behavior of any kind, but love helps us to see that there is a better way.Obviously, we must be as concerned about our own sins as we are about the sins of the Homosexual community. We must be concerned enough to speak out about any action, heterosexual or homosexual, that violates God’s intend plan for marriage and family. No matter how we oppose the homosexual agenda, we are first of all called to be Christians who have the privilege of representing Christ to all. to somehow suggest that Homosexuality is O.K. with God is to have the spirit of error operating in the individual. 4 You are of God, my little children, and you have overcome them because he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world, so their talk is the world's talk, and the world gives ear to them. 6 We are of God: he who has the knowledge of God gives ear to us; he who is not of God does not give ear to us. By this we may see which is the true spirit, and which is the spirit of error. 1 John 4:4-6 (BBE)To the facts: A Lesbian attorney in Canada correctly said “ the real battle is between gay rights and religious freedom; she also said freedom of religion will have to give way to the HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA. Coming to America sooner than you think. The fact is approximately 2 percent of the population of America and more or less marginalize all opposition. In the 1960’s the invention of the Pill started a general loosening of societal mores and insistence on” rights” Sexual self-expression which traditionally had been regarded as a privilege, became perceived as a right. with the onslaught of pornography, the Playboy mentality steadily shifted center of Gravity from marital faithfulness to personal enjoyment. With divorce available for the sake of convenience, the word family began to take on new meaning. Gradually, The notion of a family with a father, mother and children, all living under the same roof, became something of a relic of a bygone era. Meanwhile, Tolerance emerged as the one indisputable national value. This word use to mean that people should be free to believe whatever they wished, and it was improper to judge their conduct. Tolerance now demands affirmation of virtually all behavior, no matter how immoral, unnatural, and bizarre. With these streams flowing into our natural cultural much of America was ready for same sex marriages. The strategy worked for more than 30 years, gay activists have intentionally sought to make their life style and behaviors “normal” in the eyes of mainstream America. In 1973, activists persuaded the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to remove homosexuality from its list of psychiatric illness and reclassify it as normal behavior. This change was made not because of scientific data but because radicals planned a systematic effort to disrupt the annual meetings of the APA. Three years earlier, activists grabbed the microphone in an APA meeting and said, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you… we’re rejecting you all as our owners.” One prominent psychiatrist said it was the first time in psychiatric history that a scientific society ignored scientific evidence and yielded to the demands o a militant group. Through this action, the radical gay movement let it be known that its agenda would proceed regardless of research, science, and dialogue; and that intimidation would be one of its weapons to achieve its aims, no matter what.Consider the game plan put forward by two gay activists, Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, and publicized in a 1987 article titled “The Overhauling of Straight America” an a 1989 book titled After the Ball. Both are quoted and referred to extensively in the excellent book The Homosexual Agenda, by Alan Sears and Craig Osten. Here are some of the details of how the gay establishment plans to change American attitudes about homosexuality.First, they say, homosexuals should talk about gays and gayness as loudly and as often as possible. They write, “ …almost all behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of it at close quarters and among your acquaintances. Certainly we would agree that the media have cooperated with this strategy. Sitcoms, movies and documentaries are calculated to make the practice of homosexuality seem normal. With this barrage of media hype, we either are forced to accept their behavior as normal, or we become sick of it and withdraw from the cultural debate.Thus the radical homosexual with their savvy cooperation with a willing media keep pushing on society as much as it will tolerate. Yes, history has shown that it is true that “almost all behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of its close quarters and among your acquaintances.” Second, the homosexual authors write, “Portray gays as victims, not aggressive challengers” – a strategy designed to play to most Americans’ sympathy for the underdog. So the homosexual community has intentionally portray themselves as a victimized class in need of special protection. To continue in their words, “A media campaign that casts gays as society’s victims and encourages straights to be their protectors must make it easier for those who respond to assert that explain their new perspectives. The media have obliged; in fact, it is not too strong to say that promoting the gay agenda is high on the list of priorities for those who bring us our news and entertainment. When a young homosexual, Mathew Shepard, was murdered, many gays and members of the media turned his brutal killing into an opportunity to blame his death on all those who oppose the gay agenda. James Dobson of Focus on the Family bore much of the wrath of the targeted media campaign. Deborah Mathis, writing in the Orlando Sentinel, commented: The opponents of homosexual behavior prefer not to acknowledge their own bigotry. Hence, the disguise – or self-delusion – of noble purpose…Did the anti- homosexual crowd help kill Mathew Shepard? Not per se. But it poisoned the air, which poisoned the minds which connived to attract, deceive, and destroy a young man who deserved, in the least, to be left alone. They share in the complicity. She went on to liken conservative Christians to Adolf Hitler.So there you have it A homosexual was murdered, and it is the fault of all t hose who are not in step with the homosexual agenda. No matter that Mathew Shepard was killed by irreligious drunken thugs. The media gave the gay community wide and continuous support, propagating the myth that Christians who speck out against the homosexual agenda was to blame for the murder. Third, they say that it is important to make the gays look good and their victims look bad. This is done by convincing the public that many famous people in history were gay, and, of course, that gay must consistently be portrayed favorably in the media. The authors write, “We intend to make the anti-gays look so nasty that average Americans will want to disassociate themselves from such types.” Perhaps I should pause here to say that sadly, some “antigays” do look nasty. The media frequently gives attention to one man, who on occasion attends gay events carrying his sign, “God hates Fags.” Whatever his motivation, he has given gays the opportunity to paint those of us who oppose their agenda with the same brush. Conservative churches are often portrayed as hateful, homophobic, and nasty. The caricature works.Fourth a plan has become wildly successful: To solicit money from corporations to promote homosexuality an neutralize all opposition to the life style.(side note I am not surprised that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two of their biggest supporters are in trouble financially I call it judgement )The strategy has worked by clever and preserving use of propaganda, even heaven can be represented as hell to the people, and conversely, the most wretched life as paradise.Virtually everything they have wanted has come to pass even in the Public Schools homosexuality is promoted. In 2001 the National Education Association adopted a resolution to promote the full scale indoctrination of children to accept and affirm homosexual behavior. (This group does not want prayer in school but my son have a homosexual club in their high school.) when word leaked out of their intentions,they tabled the motion which means they will quietly implement it without official member approval. No dissenting views are allowed; parents are silenced and children are encouraged to experiment with various forms of sexual behavior.Yes that do have an agenda Kathy and if my son was that way I would still love him enough to tell him the truth about same sex marriage, homosexuality or any other sin that men intend to spit in God’s face. I think we forget that God spits back the lukewarm Christian that will not choose a side you can’t stay middle of the roadI know my response was long but you said a lot in your blog so I tried to answer as best I could. Again we must never speak of homosexuality as if it is the one sin worthy of eternal flames. Yes, the bible does condemn homosexuality, but it also condemns a host of other sins that are rampant in our best churches. It is not enough to condemn the darkness, if we fail to shine the light of hope on our disintegrating culture. We are living in a day of deception Jesus said this would happen in Matt 24. I know this issue is only going intensify but if we remain silent we will be silenced and will know that we were deceived by mis-educated educators.
The recent interaction on this blog, including several hate-filled comments that I have deleted, are a perfect illustration of how this platitude plays itself out. We have illustrated a sad microcosm of the church. The only part of the slogan that's evident is "Hate." Why would a gay person want to hear any Gospel from such as us?
Stuart, I don't think you got to read the blog yet, but glad you stopped by. A prayer for you tonight.
Cathy and Sista, welcome to MyChurch, and thank you for reading my blog. You will find most of this site much more peaceful than this! There are hundreds of wonderful people here!
Pastor Elam, thank you for so thoroughly reading my blog, and for respectfully offering your own well thought out response. I appreciate your passion and respect you as a brother in Christ.
There are several questions I have by following this thread...Kathy, please allow me to ask one...my question has to do with interpretation...as has been pointed out above, the words "homosexual" and "sodomite" are never used in the scripture...so we have chosen through our teachings and traditions to interpret scripture in a way that includes those terms...without any other guidance, that is an acceptable method of interpretation....not the only interpretation, but one that meets acceptable guidelines...so, here is my question:
Why do we let women speak in church?
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Don't get me wrong, this is right in the same vein as Kathy has here...she uses the example of the piano, but there is no place in scripture that says "don't play the piano". The scripture is very clear about women speaking in church, though. So help me understand how we have changed our interpretation of this scripture over the years.
This passage, much like many of the passages concerning homosexuality, is predicated upon context.
Look at the passages which surround this one verse. They all deal with prophecy and speaking in tongues, and "knowing things which are hidden".
What Paul was trying to avoid (at least I think, based upon my knowledge of history and religion) was a development of a "mystery cult", such as the cult of Isis (which was very popular at the time). These type of worship were dominated by women who had ecstatic visions and prophesied under the influence of Isis. Also, the ankh (which looks at awful lot like the cross) was a big part of these worship services, a think he was trying to avoid having the early church fall into syncretism with these groups.
MD, thanks for the historical context...now my next thought....
...some churches still follow this practice...I went to one for a while...and they taught that a woman was in sin if she spoke out without first getting it approved by one in leadership...specifically because of this verse.
So, one would have to say, given the context, that that church is not fulfilling the scripture. While it may be trying to follow the letter of the scripture, it certainly has missed the intent.
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5) NKJV
"God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7:11) NKJV
"The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." (Psalm 11:5) NKJV
From the New Testament in case as it appears you have a problem with the authority of the Old Testament
"Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4) NKJV
Showing true GODLY love to sinners (homosexuals included) is to warn them to repent of their sin.
'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." (Leviticus 19:17) It appears to me Kathy that you are the one who lacks love for sinners (homosexuals included) in that you are loving them straight into hell!
I think your thought process is logical Voice. I think that the key thing with Biblical interpretation is looking at what the surrounding passages have to say and see if the verse is part of that. Bibilical writers were not in the habit of sticking in random passages in the Bible just for the heck of it. If their is one thing the Holy Spirit knows how to do it is to flow.
I see many here who have read the intire blog and agree with me. But this is in place with God's Word. there are some here who would twist any of Gos's word to make the truth sound foolish. There has been for many centuries. This is no longer worth discusion. Those who believe God's Word know the truth. Those who fight against it. I hope God takes it easy on you. It is not mine to judge.
Ten10, Your hate for sin has clouded your true vision. I hate what we are speeking of also. But we can not say who is going to hell or not. Those who repent certainly have all the same chance for grace as we do. But, I will say. It does one no good to help evil continue!!
Golden, healthy debate and scholarship are also what has driven the Church for centuries. Had we not learned to engage and excel at both then we would have fallen long ago (to the pagans, Islam, etc.) Just because you disagree with someone does not make them evil (which is what your implication is).
To help us think about the question regarding women speaking in church -- taking church leadership, I've posted this blog - http://www.mychurch.org/blog/222117/Not-Women and am interested in hearing your responses.
PARoss, tha (your post) is an extension of what I have proposed here. Based on your discussion, you would be in agreement with keeping women from speaking in church. Is that correct?
It is not for me to keep women from speaking in church. It is a family issue and I defer to family jurisdiction.
I'm only saying that Paul makes it encumbent upon women to demonstrate love for Christ and honor to their husbands by respecting the patterns for church life set out in Scripture. To do otherwise constitutes an insult to God, to Christ and to their own husbands because they demonstrate their personal unwillingness to be faithful in the particular position or context in which God has put them.
But neither should women feel like they are being singled out for special treatment or especially put down. Actually God's requirements for faithful husbands is more demanding than that for wives. Why? Because God has made the husband the head, and leadership is always more demanding.
Leadership and followership need each other. Neither can exist without the other. They are not the same, not equal, nor unequal -- but different. The differences are important.
I received a private message this morning with the sender's very personal testimony and permission to share it. It is lengthy to add as a comment, but I believe it will add a real face to this issue:
Coming to Peace with My Own Homosexuality
Summer 2008 My View of Sex in Adolescence
As a teenager, I was becoming a gay man in the midst of a thoroughly heterosexual, Evangelical community. Gay love was so far off my people’s radar that I could neither admit to myself that I was attracted to men nor talk about it with others. It was not something we spoke of on a personal level. Gay folks had no part in my world, and I could not even consider the possibility that I might be gay. I was rapidly developing my own homosexual fantasy life, but acceptance was not an option. It was expected by myself and others that I would follow the prescribed pattern: date responsibly, refrain from overt sexuality, marry a Christian woman, enjoy the vibrancy and sanctity of the heterosexual marriage bed, and pass these same values on to my children.
Actual sexual exploration was taboo during my teens, and I received little assurance from parents and pastors as to whether sexual fantasies could be healthy or helpful. I floundered about with my daily thoughts and desires—sure I was degrading myself—always too afraid to admit to myself or anyone else that I liked men. I prayed; I went forward at altar calls; I talked with people about my struggles with “sexual sin.” I felt like sexuality was eating me alive.
Periodically my curiosity about sex would flare out in careless and unhealthy sexual adventures, followed by guilt and remorse and a greater motivation to respond more perfectly the next time—to control my sexuality more completely. Over a decade, I experimented with various means of repressing my sex drive, some more successful than others. I was not learning to appreciate and channel my sexuality—and certainly not my homosexuality, which was always repressed. In my view, it was not okay that I was sexual, and any sexuality I was involved in ended up being clandestine and quickly repented of.
Coming Out
Eventually, as I entered adulthood, I slowly admitted to myself and others that I am same-sex attracted—beginning at age nineteen, my first year in college. I still fought to repress and change my orientation for six years after, but at least I was honest about my attraction to men. And as long as I was trying to change or push myself back into the heterosexual mold, I was approved of. I was still being good, toeing the line.
I made my way through college, at one point transferring back home to distance myself from access to the New York City gay scene. I dated a good friend—a woman—for two and a half years, believing, with her encouragement, that we could make heterosexuality work for me. And it worked on some level, but my homosexual desires never changed. If the relationship had not ended for other reasons, it would have ended when I realized that I no longer wanted to be heterosexual. I am so thankful that we did not marry or have children together.
Increasingly during my early twenties, life revolved around “recovery” work, groups, meetings and counseling. I was convinced that I was a sex addict, and in that self-diagnosis, I found motivation to apply myself to more and more stringent discipline. Eventually, at age 24, I found myself in a sexual recovery or “purity” meeting every night of the week, with no sexual outlets whatsoever allowed. It was in that state that I wrote in Stumbling toward a Genuine Conversation on Homosexuality (Michael King, ed., Dreamseeker Books, 2007) of how I was being “healed” from my “diseased” homosexuality by following Christ in carrying a cross—crucifying the desires of my flesh—and somehow mystically being raised to the fulfillment of “biblical sexuality,” which in my case meant total abstention. Confident in answers I had found, I wrote that “sex is not a need, but rather a gift and a privilege,” that it was “designed by God as an integral component of a loving, heterosexual marriage, and that limited context is the only place where it is truly and permanently fulfilling.” I reported that “I was able to make the hard choice to embrace biblical sexuality and submit myself to healing mercy….dying to myself and being raised to new life,” and that I would like to hear that others too were “crucifying the sinful nature and its desires.” The subtext reads that I was gritting my teeth and driving a stake into the ground. I was determined to be “perfect”—a sexual martyr, dying to my flesh and making resurrection happen, impressing my parents and the moral and doctrinal guardians of the church. I was fighting a battle against my own perceived sexual corruption and that of others. I was sure that was where salvation lay….
But grace was also working its way into my life. I had many beautiful days—times of laughter with friends, moments of light-hearted growth, of learning about the spirit of generosity. And that Spirit of life, love, and joy began to seep deep into my person. I had become a liberal person in many respects. I was learning despite myself that salvation lies in relationship rather than rules. And from that small root of grace, I reached out for friends, in that same article in Stumbling: “…I wish I knew some gay and lesbian Christians,” something I never would have asked for a few years earlier. After all these years, I still had no friends who were comfortable with their own homosexuality.
Very gracefully, Michael King invited me to participate in the conversational Stumbling book. He did not dismiss me as a quack or place censure on the way I presented my nervous, dogmatic (and confused) vision of God and sexuality. Rather, he gave me space to squeeze out that little call for friends in the midst of my security blanket of “answers.” That was very life-giving for me. Through my participation in Stumbling, I became acquainted with happy gay people for the first time in my life.
And an amazing thing happened. I lost interest in becoming heterosexual. Of course, it wasn’t that simple, but that was the basic transformation. A year after my writing, shortly before the book came off the press, I had a crisis of faith. I had become miserable in my quest for sexual “healing” and “purity.” As mentioned above, I was in meetings every night of the week (and sometimes more), being told that my sexuality was no good and needed to be quieted and controlled. I had already realized that I could not expect to ever marry a woman; and here I was, a healthy, sexually-vibrant 24-year-old man, being trained in asexuality. It no longer felt right. This was not the life I wanted. I was performing for others, and had grown tired. I could not pretend that I was more healthy than those who accept their homosexuality as good. They were free to relate to God and be joyful in the sexuality that is natural to them. I was stifling my natural sexuality to please an anti-gay God who, I realized with surprise, apparently does not exist.
It had to end. I admitted to myself that I no longer desired to fight my homosexuality, and I began to explore what it means to be gay, and how to relate to God outside of boxes, heterosexual, doctrinal or otherwise.
Coming In
A year later, I don’t have any more “answers” than I did before. God is a mystery to me. My most tangible experience of this divine mystery is grace. I have been amazed at the warmth and love expressed to me by people on both sides of the “homosexuality issue.” As I have begun to live my gayness and to voice the questions I have about God, sex, etc., people continuously show me love and welcome, without fear and condemnation. To me, this is the greatest evidence that there is a God, and that God is love, hope and peace.
I have come to know many wonderful gay and lesbian folks in the last year, and they have shown me grace, forgiving my former statements against homosexuality and welcoming me into the joy of being at peace with my sexual orientation. I have received grace also from my family and other conservative friends and church people who never want to judge me. While they may not understand or agree with my choice to accept a gay identity, they desire, like my gay brothers and lesbian sisters, to journey with me as a friend and fellow pilgrim. So far, I have been welcomed to God’s table, not chased away, and I feel very loved.
Grace amazes me. Even if God is simply the Spirit of Grace in the universe, he is greater than our minds can fathom and is worthy of worship and service. And Jesus is special, truly special. I believe that in following his way, I will have life. But I don’t presume to have all the answers—it’s just one step at a time. In my congregation, our motto is “people on a journey with Jesus.” And that’s me. I am a gay man journeying with Jesus, following sometimes close and sometimes incredulous, sometimes pious and sometimes denying. Sometimes sure and sometimes fearful, but ever in awe of grace, and trusting my future to Love.
Kathy, Okay. So what? Sinners want to find personal solace in their sin. People want the benefits of Christ, but don't want to give up their sin. What else is new?
Read his story and substitute alcoholism for homosexuality. He has struggled with alcoholism, and wants to justify it and has now found other alcoholics who drink with him and talk about God. They even play church together, and that makes them all feel really good about their alcoholism. The point to notice is the story is all about himself and the justification of his sin -- that sin being his false self-identity, thinking that God made him a homosexual (sinner). God doesn't make people sinners, though all people are born sinners. This is simply a misreading of the Biblical narratives.
Read his story and substitute idolatry or adultery for homosexuality. He has struggled with these sins, but in his unconverted heart he knows that nothing is really wrong with them. They are just culturally conditioned. So, he finds other idolaters and/or adulterers who have similar beliefs, desires and struggles -- smart people who show him how to read his own thoughts and desires into Scripture as a way to justify their sin. They too play church, and live happily ever after. Well... not quite ever after, but for a while because God really is gracious. "The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
Sinners have always used God's grace as a justification for sin. Paul spoke of this many times. "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:6-7). Distorting the gospel, even with the best of intentions, is an old ploy and the bane of the church.
Everyone struggles with God's message and God's grace until they are converted, changed, born again, whatever you want to call it. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). And once converted, changed by the power and presense of the Holy Spirit, the real struggle begins in earnest. But it's not the same struggle. Where it used to be struggling against God and obedience to His Word, now it becomes struggling on behalf of God and His Word, helping people get the Word of God straight, not helping sinners to justify their sin.
Another personal testimony I just received privately, with permission to share. These stories are coming as a gift. If you choose to read them, I hope you'll do so as if you are facing this person over a cup of coffee, not as if you are critiquing an on-line piece of writing. Thank you to those who share:
My Story
I have lived my life as a Christian. I am a retired teacher, and I have 13 grandchildren. I am a lesbian. I want to tell you a little about my life.
I knew from a very young age that I had feelings that were different from other girls. I didn’t understand those feelings, and I did not have any words to describe what I felt. But I knew I was different.
When I was 7 years o ld I invited Jesus Christ into my heart to be my Savior. I was baptized, and Jesus was first in my life. I loved reading my Bible and devotionals.
As I entered my teens, I continued to have feelings that I did not understand. In the context of my growing up, I didn’t know anything about homosexuality except from what I read in my KJV Bible. So I believed those feeling were wrong and were the cross I would bear for Jesus.
I married at age 18 - soon I had four healthy, beautiful children. They were the center of my life, the joy of my heart. Loving them, reading the Bible and praying with them, I felt my life was nearly complete. I wanted them to know and love Jesus the way I did. I did everything I knew to h ave our family live a Christian life. The secret cross I bore was the feelings deep inside that I was different, and that it was sinful to feel that way. I didn’t have anyone to talk to about it, so I prayed and carried on.
My husband was not a Christian, and he didn’t feel fulfilled sexually - so he left me for another woman, leaving me with 4 school-aged children and no education or work. I opened a small business in my home and began taking college classes toward earning my teaching credential.
While attending college classes, I became aware of gay and lesbian people on campus. I learned that my secret and hidden feelings were homosexual, were called lesbian. I knew I must keep that repressed, and I prayed every day for God to heal me, to take that away. I continued trying my utmost to be a go od Christian, a prefect mother, and a devoted Sunday School teacher. On the outside, everything looked pretty good, but God did not heal those lesbian feelings.
For the next 30 years I lived as a single woman, fully committed to my relationship with Jesus Christ, studying His word, seeing my children grow up and get married, teaching school, and going on mission trips. Every year, I spent New Year’s Day in fasting and prayer, asking God for direction for the year. My prayer was, “Where do you want me this year, Lord? For whom shall I pray? How shall I serve?” Year after year, I wrote down God’s answers as I walked with Him in praise and thanksgiving.
As I was praying on January 1, 2007, God moved in my heart and His message was clear in my mind, “This year it is about you, my beloved, about the part of you are that you have denied all these years.”
I Googled “gay Christian” and discovered a whole universe of information about being gay and lesbian. I read amazing stories about real people, real Christians, gay and lesbian, who have become honest with themselves and God about who they are as gay and lesbian people. I read about all the false translations which have kept thousands of gay and lesbian people from knowing that God loves them.
Again I turned to my Bible. Suddenly it seemed as if passages were shining under a radiant light. The Holy Spirit filled me with the knowledge of God’s grace and mercy for me. The whole room filled with the presence of Jesus. Indescribable joy filled me. I=2 0KNEW beyond a shadow of doubt God loves me just as I am! I am saved through Jesus Christ, my Lord.
Then I prayed that God would let me meet some real lesbian Christians. In His amazing and miraculous timing, within weeks I met wonderful Christian lesbians with stories similar to mine. After a year of friendship, I am now in a life-long committed relationship with a woman, sharing the kind of love I always longed to know. (I think it’s important to mention that lesbian love is not so much about sex, but about relationship.)
I believe the Bible and its authority. The Old Testament tells of God’s relationship with the Hebrew people. The New Testament shows us Jesus, God’s Son, and his teachings, death and resurrection, as well as the experiences and faith of the first followers of Jesus. The Bible creates and nurtures faith through the work of the Holy Spirit and points to Jesus Christ, the living Word and center of my faith. Through reading the Bible, one is invited into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And I believe that God has set me free in Jesus Christ to live as a Christian lesbian.
If God is interested in your heart,Bar, then one's sexual orientation is immaterial to salvation is it not? One can become consumed by one's passion, and that is a bad thing, hetero or homo. Being gay is not bad.Nether is being straight. Its the way we live our lives, the content of our hearts.
Barvubuela, right on! "What God reveals he heals." And the corrolary: where there isn't healing, there hasn't been revealing.
"But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake." ( 2Corinthians 4:2-5).
PS There is certainly no such a character as a "homosexual" Christian. To be a Christian one must HATE sin. Satan is the one who encourages it. Simple fact. If you follow the sinner. You follow Satan. his name is DEATH!!
PaRoss, you said it like it is. I can't seam to understand why YOU have not been attacked for it. Not that you should. You are perfectly correct. God bless!! Keep up the GOOD fight!!
It is a fool who believes perversion is "Alright" Now who wants to stand up and show themselves to be a fool?? No one listens to a FOOL!!
Golden, to disagree with someone, is not to attack them. Just as to dissent is not to deny. I would hope you would know the difference.I have no agenda Golden, except the pursuit of the truth.
As to your closing sentence: "Now who wants to stand up and show themselves to be a fool?? No one listens to a FOOL!!"
Am I a fool? Then I accept the term gladly.
4:10 We [are] fools for Christ's sake, but ye [are] wise in Christ; we [are] weak, but ye [are] strong; ye [are] honourable, but we [are] despised.
Many of the saints, including my own beloved Saint Francis have used the term "fool" to describe themselves and their companions. Fools such as myself often use shocking, unconventional behavior to challenge accepted norms. Am I doing that? Perhaps, perhaps not. But that uncertainty of meaning is also a part of the special grace that we "Christian fools" have. However, if you mean fool as a degrading term(which I believe you do), then I would advise you to pick up and re-read the Gospel:
5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
The Supreme Court of California ruled today that the Gay Marriage amendment , will stay on the November ballot - The voters of California will now decide , not 4 unelected individuals , who thought they could push this on to the entire country . Its funny , my wife is a successful hair stylist and many of her peers , friends are gay . I have hung out with them and I have no problem with them , some of them are probably better people than me . I just believe that Gay activity is 100% wrong , I truly believe God believes this . I really was not that upset , until these four unelected people decided to play God . I am glad this issue is on the ballot . Lets put this on every state ballot , let the voters decide if they are a Gay state or a straight state (In regards to marriage) .
2:15 Let it be your care to get the approval of God, as a workman who has no cause for shame, giving the true word in the right way. 2:16But take no part in wrong and foolish talk, for those who do so will go farther into evil, 2:17And their words will be like poisoned wounds in the flesh: such are Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Men whose ideas are all false, who say that the coming back from the dead has even now taken place, overturning the faith of some.2:19 But God's strong base is unchanging, having this sign, The Lord has knowledge of those who are his: and, Let everyone by whom the name of the Lord is named be turned away from evil. 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but others of wood and earth, and some which are honoured and some without honour. 2:21 If a man makes himself clean from these, he will be a vessel for honour, made holy, ready for the master's use, ready for every good work. 2:22 But keep yourself from those desires of the flesh which are strong when the body is young, and go after righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those whose prayers go up to the Lord from a clean heart. 2:23 And put away foolish and uncontrolled questionings, seeing that they are a cause of trouble. 2:24 For it is not right for the Lord's servant to make trouble, but he is to be gentle to all, ready in teaching, putting up with wrong, 2:25Gently guiding those who go against the teaching; if by chance God may give them a change of heart and true knowledge, 2:26 And so they may get themselves free from the net of the Evil One, being made the prisoners of the Lord's servant, for the purpose of God.
There were people who believed the resurrection had already happened,turns out they were wrong too. I see a few smart educated people who want the rest of us to believe that God almighty is o.k. with same sex marriage. You can twist God's word but the fact still remains there are many places in scripture that condemns Sin. This to me is considered profane and vain babblings. It is obvious that no matter how we try to sway the few who believe this way it is of no avail because they are convinced in their heart that they are right. I say if the blind lead the blind...This seems to promote homosexual Christian Living. I have read lots of material on this subject my conclusion is that future Generations will suffer (should the Lord tarry) if we don't take a stand now. I think God is speaking but we don't see it that way. Lighting causing thousands of acres to burn, in the same state that is causing this uproar. Financial problems for two companies that support this agenda (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) but we still can't see it. at this point all we can do is pray. God can do a far greater work than we ever can. Like E.F Hutton when God is done speaking maybe men will repent and turn from their wicked ways. Finally have you all ever read what the loving God did to his people Israel in Psalm 78 this is how a loving God deal with a wicked and perverse nation. may God have mercy on us all.
MD, I have to say as a Black man I fail to see the similarity between homosexuality and Slavery. One group was fighting for the right to be free, the other group is trying to fight for the right to be freaky two totally different schools of thought.Gay people have great jobs, live in some of the better neighborhoods, have gone to some of the best schools. While blacks still struggle in a lot of area's to be free from the stigma of slavery and racism. hurricane Katrina showed us that. No my brother when looking through the eyes of a black man I can't see it. and unless you can say that from where I am sitting you would never see it.
Actually Elam, I was making the comparison with the whole "free state" vs "slave state" solution in the 19th century. You fail to see the comparison? I can't really say I am suprised.
"The barometer of where one is on human right questions is no longer the black community, it's the gay community. Because it is the community which is most easily mistreated." -Bayard Rustin (an American civil rights activist, important largely behind the scenes in the civil rights movement of the 1960's and the principal organizer of the 1963 March on Washington. He counseled MLK Jr. on the techniques of non-violent resistance)
Malleus trying to say that we should have an all out civil war to free Gays ? I would not put the Gay push in the same breath as Slavery . The majority will have their voice heard . If California voters decide that their a Gay state , than so be it . We will fight against this to the very end though and will have our victory in front of our lord , on our judgement day .
Pastor Elam, I believe you are a sincere and intelligent man, who would not get into such discussions as this except that his strong convictions led him here. I respect that in you, and I understand what you are saying. I must respond to you, however, that, on the contrary, this issue is very closely parallel to the Civil Rights movement of the '60s. You may never see it that way, as you are on a different side of this movement.
During that earlier movement, certainly the black population knew they were equally human and deserving of justice. (I would go a step further and say they were far more deserving of fair treatment than the white supremecist members of society who fought to keep them down, but that's a blog for another day.) There were also an increasing number of white persons who understood the lack of justice and who spoke out for their black brothers and sisters. Many white faces were scattered among the civil rights marches. But most of the white majority believed, as had been passed down generation to generation, that black people were not fully human, and, although they should not be treated with cruelty, they should also not be treated with equality. The Holy Scripture was used to back up these horrid beliefs. (See the third paragraph of this blog.)
As a white woman, I often question whether I would have had the courage to march, to speak out, to "blog." I can only hope that I would have walked alongside the likes of white Michigan woman Viola Gregg Liuzzo, who was killed by the Klan, (not that I would want to have ended in her fate). With MLK and with Dante, I believe one of our greatest sins is that of saying nothing in the midst of injustice. I have been very active in black civil rights in more ways than I can legally expound here, and I will continue to fight until I see true equality reached.
Now, however, we are living in a new civil rights era, in which the injustice has shifted from black Americans to homosexual Americans. Not that we ever fully completed the first one, because we haven't, but now we have a new group to treat as subhuman. And in one sense it shocks me that my black brothers and sisters are a part of this injustice. From the other side, however, I am not surprised at all, because, again, this has become, handed down generation to generation, a Bible-based fight. Those who fight against equal rights for gay persons are almost exclusively fundamentalist or evangelical Christians who truly believe that God does not approve of these people. The problem with this, as I have said over and over, is not one we can fix on this blog, as it is deeply rooted in how we have been taught to read and interpret God's word. There is a deep and widespread ignorance (that words means simply a lack of knowledge and understanding) across the Christian community that cannot be penetrated with merely a discussion such as this.
As I mentioned in this blog, I find it unbelievable that an entire culture in the 1930s and '40s could believe the lie that Jewish people were subhuman and needed to be exterminated. Hitler gets all the blame for this, and deservingly so, but he didn't make up this ideology. It had been passed form generation to generation, even from Martin Luther's writings in the 1500s, and, yes, Scripture was used to "prove' this injustice too!
Pastor Elam, you said, "It is obvious that no matter how we try to sway the few who believe this way it is of no avail because they are convinced in their heart that they are right." Your point is poignant and pivotal, as it is exactly the sentiment of each side of this issue toward the other.
Last night I received a private message that included the following: "One thing I learned . . . is that I cannot expect to have unifying conversation about this or any divisive issue unless there is positive, loving relationship to undergird such conversation--in other words, until I actually, personally love the person I'm criticizing, I might as well keep my mouth shut. It's a hard lesson to learn, and I imagine I'll struggle with the tendency to criticize my entire life. But I hope to grow more and more into the kind of person who learns to know and love people before trying to hold them accountable. I think that's probably how Jesus would do it." Very well said, no matter which side of this issue we are on!
It is my most sincere prayer, not that I will win in this issue, but that God will win. May we, as His followers, not hinder Him or His Gospel.
MD, I failed to make the comparison because you never made that "free state vs "slave state" statement unless you did and I missed it. Yes my friend when it comes to words and Theological terms you win hands down ((((((Clap,Clap)))))) but I am smart enough to know right from wrong, weak from strong,and wheat from tares. In the words of Jesus let the wheat and the tares grow together and in the day of harvest he would do the separating. Now let's see did I get that one right or did he mean something different in that statement too. I am sure you will enlighten us being that you are so smart and all. Now that is not as bad as "I can't really say I'm surprised" it"s just a smart way of calling a person dumb. would you agree with me MD, on that. I love you anyway.
It is written in 2 Peter 3:16b - 18: "... which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID! Holy Spirit POwER Ministry; see us on My Church.
poignant (poin'yent)1.Physically painful. b. Keenly distressing to the mind c. Appealing to the emotions: touching 2.Piercing: incisive 3.Neat, skillful to the point
For those of us without collage degrees.
Kathy, I love you I just don't agree with you I also don't want to see humans not be able to eat, have a decent place to lay their head etc. Gays or Homosexuals can go in any Restaurant sit down have a meal with almost no problems. Blacks could not and in some rural tows in America still can't. I saw the Gay pride parade this was the 38th annual one. I didn't see any water hoses, no dogs biting people, No police beating them with their clubs. I hope that never happens to any other person or group of people. but to make the comparison of the black injustices to the gay injustices I'm sorry it is an insult. Our women were rapped our children were taken away from us. Our people worked for hundreds of years for free. One thing I will say is that as painful or as uncomfortable as it is we are talking about it. We don't agree but we are talking about it. One day the choice will be made and it will depend on the choice you make today.We must seek God's true way I love you all and will continue to pray for you all.
No Elam, I am afraid I wouldn't say that. The comment that I can't really say I'm suprised, was not a "smart way of calling a person dumb". It was more sad statement of resignation that you will just keep your blinders on with regards to this issue. If I wished to ridicule your intellect (or lack thereof) I could have used far more subtler tactics. I am many things, unimaginative is not one of them.
No, I think that statement is right. However, if you think that it is going to matter to Christ when he judges your soul is who you decided to love, you will be in for a shock. The content of our soul (have we loved others) and the actions that we have done (have we clothed the naked, fed the poor, etc.) will matter far more than the gender of who we committ ourselves to.
You are right Elam, people that love their own gender do not have anything to fear.
Remember Matthew Shepard?
Covered with blood, save where the tears ran down, that's how the officer who found him described him. More scarecrow than human. Hung on a cross. Left to die. Despised. Rejected. The object of ridicule, oppression and hate. The Passion of Matthew. Echoes of Isaiah. (Maryknoll Magazine, 2001)
31:10 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am in distress; my eye is wasted from grief, my soul and my body also. 31:11For my life is spent with sorrow, and my years with sighing; my strength fails because of my misery, and my bones waste away. 31:12 I am the scorn of all my adversaries, a horror to my neighbors, an object of dread to my acquaintances; those who see me in the street flee from me. 31:13 I have passed out of mind like one who is dead; I have become like a broken vessel. 31:14 Yea, I hear the whispering of many--terror on every side! --as they scheme together against me, as they plot to take my life. 31:15 But I trust in thee, O LORD, I say, "Thou art my God." 31:16 My times are in thy hand; deliver me from the hand of my enemies and persecutors! 31:17 Let thy face shine on thy servant; save me in thy steadfast love!
What I have never understood (age 68); why are co many "Christians" so obsessed with discussing the pros and cons of gay and lesbians; GOD GIVES US ALL THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE - and His Word clearly warns us that those who make the wrong choice(s) will spend eternity in Hell - A REAL PLACE!
Yes; God loves all sinners, including those many bloggers who have respond to this particular article (including me). Bur folks; let's face it - as you look around you at the rapid deteriotion of our society - most who call themselves "Christian" are going to spend eternity with those who die in thier sins of homosexuality. We all need to get the planks out of our own eyes!
So the question is: WHERE WILL YOU SPEND ETERNITY? And what does Ephesians 5:27 mean to you?
If you have the time for more relevant discussions; please pay us a visit on this network.
Proof that advocacy can go overboard at times. There is no comparison between Matthew Shepard and the Lamb of God. Shepard gave his life for no one, it was taken away from him against his will. Sorry MD, but I find that somewhat offensive.
Hey I'm not cool with it. God made Adam and Eve, Man and Woman. I don't judge anyone because of the lifestyle the live because at the end of the day we supposed to love them and let God do the judging. It's funny as a Christian and growing up in the church you want the unsaved or that sinner to come to God or to church but when they get their people shun them or they don't even give them a chance. I think as humans we need to work on being like little gods loving unconditionally like God love us. We mess but he still loves us a gives us a chance over and over again.
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it (us) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
There is only one way to be a part of God's church - I am a part of that glorious church having been washed by the Blood of the Lamb, clothed in His Holy righteousness, by faith, not of my own works. I am saved by God’s Grace and living in His Grace right now and for all eternity. Eternity does not begin after you die - we are living in God's eternity now. We can choose to live and love with justice, mercy, and walk humbly …. let the Holy Spirit guide us as we ask HOW to live justice and mercy with humility. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast." Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
HSPM, most Christians are not really seeking to understand the mindset of those Christians who disagree with them. If you are sincere in such a desire, a thorough and thoughtful reading of this blog and all the comments presents the answers you are seeking. I'm not asking you to read and change your position, but just to read and understand the opposing viewpoint. May we all seek to understand and appreciate each other as fellow Christians, and may we not attempt to judge which of our Christian brothers and sisters will go to hell. John 3:16.
Pastor Elam, Yes, our culture has changed since the 1960s. Our prejudices have become much more concealed (even to ourselves) and sophisticated. We no longer have separate water fountains and separate bus seats, but please don't kid yourself into believing that that the gay community is not being horrifically mistreated, even to death. Please spend some time on-line searching the many hate-crime stories that never make the news. You will be shocked.
The gay people's advantage over the black struggle is that their skin is not "gay-colored", so they are not as likely to be attacked by strangers, unless of course they should dare to hold hands in public . . .
I am not one to measure any atrocity to the holocaust or to the civil rights movement. These were eras in our history that stand alone, with nothing else being fully comparable to their forms of injustice. It is, however, very useful to note the parallels of all injustices and to attempt to learn from our past. "But this time we are on God's side," many say. As said the masses in both these other eras. God gets blamed from some horrific atrocities of flawed and well-meaning human judgment, and shamefully it is often "Christians" who are leading the way, based on their misinterpretations of God's word.
Another prejudice I'm perceiving here is one against education. God's grace is not based on a person's level of education, but it only benefits us to become more knowledgeable in all things. It is foolishness to consider education a detriment. God's children are like our children. Always choosing sides and finding new reasons to throw stones at each other. Will we ever learn to love each other (not only in word) and to appreciate the value of each others' differences? I'm guessing not.
Mike, my apologies if I offended. I was not attempting to make a case for the redemptive and salvific power of Matthew Shepard. However I do think it is valid to see in Shepard's suffering (as in the suffering of all those who are persecuted),and that of Christ.
Nearly 800 years ago, St. Francis of Assisi, found that one of his more learned friars, a certain Anthony of Padua, was interested in teaching theology to other friars. In response, Francis wrote:
It is my pleasure that you teach theology to the brothers, provided, however, that as the Rule prescribes, the spirit of prayer and devotion may not be extinguished.
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