Baptist Church in Rochester, NY 1870’s:A deacon confronts the pastor for placing a piano in the church, describing it as a “sign of the beast.”This incident, recorded in Helen Barrett Montgomery’s memoirs, was a sign of the times.Although we can only speculate, it has been suggested that this attitude stemmed from the fact that pianos were used in dance halls and saloons.Today there are still churches that claim all instruments EXCEPT the piano and organ are of Satan, but most Christians today enjoy instrumental music as an integral part of worshiping God.
Eastern Europe, late 1930’s-1945:Even theologians participated fully in Hitler’s call to exterminate some 11 million human beings, including Jews,Mentally Handicapped Persons,Disabled Persons, Homosexual Men, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholic Poles, Soviet POW’s, Political Prisoners, and Romani People.Why?Presumably because Hitler convinced them that these were all sub-humans and were a threat to their well-being??Today those of us who read the memoirs of Holocaust survivors, or visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC are muted in disbelief at the horror of such inhumane treatment.One man, who was then well respected and trusted, managed to convince an entire culture that all these groups of people were sub-human and were outside of God’s plan for the human race.Before reading on, pause here for a moment, and really think about this atrocity.How could so many supposedly well meaning people, including God’s people, buy into this ideology?Are we immune to such persuasion?
Southern Baptist Convention, June20, 1995:The SBC adopted a resolution in1995 renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its defense of slavery. That was 1995!A 1968 survey conducted by the SBC’s Home Mission Board showed that only 11% of Southern Baptist churches would admit African-Americans. A century after the abolition of slavery.Think about that.
North Carolina Baptist State Convention, Nov. 14, 2006:Voted to throw out any church that advocated homosexuality in any way, even knowingly having a gay person in membership.Other denominations have made similar rulings.“Go away homosexuals!You are not welcome in our churches.We prefer to keep you out of fellowship with Christian people, so we can accuse you of being godless and promiscuous!”
There are certain words that set Christians off.Words like abortion, evolution, stem-cell research, women in ministry, Bush, and the winner for this decade, homosexuality. We hear these words, and our brains and tongues go into automatic pilot.We don’t even hear the questions or the issues, just the word.We have rehearsed our responses and are proud to hone our speaking skills every chance we get.Well, I want to ask you to do something different on this blog.This will be a blog that will “ruffle the feathers” of most of you who read it, because its purpose is to challenge us to think deeper and to step beyond the comfortable box we have built around ourselves.If you are already finding yourself formulating an earth shattering response, please stop for a moment.Please do one of two things before continuing:1)Take the time to carefully read and listen to this entire blog. (Yes, I know it’s long!)or 2)move on to another blog without commenting here, and come back later if you’d like.
Still here?Great!I was afraid I wrote all the rest of this blog for nothing! OK, pull up a chair, and grab a drink!We could be here a while!
HOW CHRISTIANS REACT TO GAY PEOPLE
OK, first of all, why is this issue so important to us as the Church?It is importantbecause it is the daily struggle of so many people all around us everyday.Hurting people, searching people, people created by the God who created you and me, the majority of whom have turned their backs on the Church and God, because the Church has turned its back on them, and they don’t make the distinction between the perfect God and His fallible Church.You think you don’t know any gay people?You are blind to them probably because they perceive that you do not understand and would feel the need to share with them how abominable their lifestyle is to God (they have heard it already!), and whatever respect you have for them now would disappear.True, isn’t it?What if you found out your supervisor was gay?Your nephew?Your child’s teacher?Your music minister?Your brother?The guy in the next cubicle?Your daughter?Your husband?
Chances are you would want to protect those you love from them, and/or you would want to help them change.This normal response is riddled with fallacy.First, gay people are no more likely to be predatory or child molesters than are heterosexual people.They are all around us everyday living normal lives just like the rest of us.Now, that said, there is a tendency to more promiscuity within the gay male community, due I think to two reasons:1)the church has shunned them, so they are not welcome to be a part of a fellowship that’s growing in Christian principles, and 2) men in general are more sexual, and without the constraints put on by God (and wife!), many men fall naturally into promiscuous lifestyles.
Second fallacy:Homosexuals can be changed into Heterosexuals.Despite what we Christians want so strongly to believe, an intelligent view of science and psychology is fairly conclusive that sexual orientation is not a choice.That causes serious problems for our Christian thinking, so we will argue the opposite position until we are red in the face, but ultimately, it doesn’t change the facts.Why are people gay?I don’t know.That jury has been out for a long time, and that chapter is not in this blog!
Having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, for better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. -Ben Franklin (1787)
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
The one obstacle to Christians accepting what science knows to be true is their personal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.There are those who have been taught that the Bible is God’s exact words given directly to us for the purpose of telling us how to live, and that every word in our KJV or NIV is without discrepancy and meant to be directly applied to our everyday lives.A large number of today’s churches teach such an interpretation.
Others, however, view each individual scriptural writing with regard to such questions as who wrote it, who was its intended audience, when was it written and why, etc.This is an extremely important point in understanding the issue of this blog, so if you truly desire to understand the viewpoint I am about to present, please pause for a moment and read THIS BLOG first, pertaining to Scriptural interpretation.
There is much written on the Biblical interpretation of the homosexual passages of the Bible.The literalists cling to such passages as Lev. 18:22 to say “case closed,”and they close it.Much has been written by Christians on both sides of this issue, and I would do it a disservice to attempt to cover the Biblical arguments in a couple of paragraphs.I will say, however, that, despite my assertion that sexual orientation is not a sin, I am offended and opposed to the irresponsible “scholarship” of those who claim the homosexuality of Jesus or his disciples. . .Jesus had a mission far greater than marriage and family, a mission of salvation for all His people.Truth is what it is.Truth needs nothing added to it.It stands.It is.And extremists on both sides have taken their “truth” too far.I will advocate neither the “closed book” view nor the “homosexuality is condoned in Scripture” view. Homosexuality as we think of it today was nonexistent in both OT and NT times, although the orientation itself is evident across lines of time and place.
For those on the “case closed” side, consider the following Scripture passages. The Bible says it.Shall we apply them to our lives?
Gen. 6:2-4 Uncircumcised males have broken God’s covenant and should be cut off from his people. (bad pun?)
Ex. 21:22 When a man hurts a pregnant woman and causes miscarriage, “yet no harm follows,” (huh?),he shall be fined.
Ex. 31:14-15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath shall be put to death. (!)(Num. 15:32-36 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath is stoned to death at God’s command!)
Matt. 23:9Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is in heaven.
Lev. 3:17, 11:6-7, 14:11ffEat neither fat nor blood, hare nor swine, ostrich
Lev. 11:10 Eating water creatures that don’t have fins and scales is an abomination!
Lev. 15, 20:18 A menstruating woman is unclean, and a man who has relations with her (cut off from people)
Lev. 19:19 Don’t let cattle mix-breed, don’t sow two different kinds of seed in one field (corn and beans?), don’t wear clothes made of two different materials (cotton and polyester?)
Lev. 19:27-28 Don’t round off your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard; no tattoos.
Lev. 20:18; Deut. 21:18-20 A child who curses his parent shall be put to death (!); If you have a stubborn and rebellious son, turn him over to the elders to be stoned to death. (!)
Lev. 20:10 Adulterers shall both be put to death.
Lev. 24:17-20 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, fracture for fracture (opposite of Jesus’ teachings to turn the other cheek)
Lev. 25:39-46 Rules for owning slaves
Num. 5:2 All with a discharge and all who have been in contact with a dead body shall be put out of the camp.
Mark 10:2-12 Remarriage is adultery.
Mark 16:17-18 Jesus said the signs of those who believe will be: casting out demons, speaking in tongues, picking up serpents, drinking poison without being harmed, and healing the sick (Can we call ourselves “believers”?!)
1 Tim. 2:9-15 women, do not wear braids, gold, pearls, or costly apparel;don’t teach or have authority over men;you will be saved in child-bearing (huh?)
Deut. 22:13-21 A woman found to be not virgin (by her husband’s testimony that garment was not soiled), she shall be stoned.
Deut. 23:1 A man with crushed testicles or a cut off penis cannot enter the assembly of the Lord (I’m not making this stuff up!)
Deut. 23:2 Nor a bastard, even to the 10th generation of his descendants (This is plain mean!)
Mark 12:25 No marriage in heaven (not many sermons on that one!)
2 Kings 2:23-25 Elisha curses young boys for calling him “baldhead”, and bears tear 42 of them.(Again, not good sermon material!)
1 Cor. 7:14; 15:29 Paul says an unbelieving spouse is consecrated through the believing one (He also admits these are his own words.); then he defends baptism on behalf of the dead.(Not many Christians believe either of these.)
1 Cor. 11:14 Long hair on a man is degrading.
I’ll stop there.This started out as a blog, not a novel!My point here is that literalism to be applied directly to our 21st century lives causes many problems.God is not confined to any time or culture, and He (not the law) continues to be just as relevant in our culture as He was in the OT times.
13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Attitudes about homosexuality vary greatly from culture to culture and from century to century.There has likely never been a culture without homosexuals, even in the animal kingdom,but in many cultures, it has been a non-issue.Somewhat like people with red hair.Notably different from most, but an insignificant distinction.Many of the Native American cultures honor their homosexual members, referring to them as two-spirited people, and honoring their special qualities and gifts.Other cultures have made homosexuality illegal and punishable by death.Others, like ours, have singled homosexuals out as morally reprehensible and socially deviant persons.
The culture of our age, including the Christian subculture, has an inflated fixation on sexuality in general and especially on homosexuality.I wholehearted affirm that our younger generations are living in a sexual culture that is harming them emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, as the lines of sexual morality are being erased.The free sex mentality, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is most definitely apart from God’s plan for His children, and He stands, arms outstretched, awaiting our repentance.It grieves me to see the emotional and spiritual confusion of my young students as they experiment sexually with multiple partners, sometimes even with both genders.I sympathize with a generation that falls into such harmful choices amidst such a confusing culture, but in no way do I condone such sexual freedom.
WHO ARE GAY PEOPLE?
Who are gay people?Homosexuality has no boundaries.Gay people are born into families of every race, every culture, and every religion.Gay people are businessmen, public servants, waitresses, parents, siblings, sons, and daughters.Gay people are as varied as their heterosexual counterparts.
Without attempting to stereotype, there are some typical qualities and gifts that gay people often bring to their worlds that are worthy of mention here.Gay men are often especially caring and sensitive to others’ needs, thus often choosing ministerial careers.It is the gay man who will often take in his aging parents to care for them.He is often gifted in the arts, musically talented, and attracted to careers in entertainment, theatre, fashion or design, or often to church music ministry.Gay women typically enjoy sports, many rising into the college and professional levels, and are often driven in their careers, many making great contributions to their professions.
Sexual orientation is a misnomer.A person’s sexual orientation is not about sex.It is about identity.This unfortunate label is, in my opinion, a lot of the problem with our inability to see gay persons as we see everyone else.We cannot say “homosexual” without conjuring mental images of “what they do.”I call this the “ick” factor.It has to be wrong, because it’s “icky.”Why do we want to think about what ANYONE does sexually?Do you think about what your supervisor does with his wife?Do you think about what your parents do?(Now, THAT’S icky!)If the ick factor is a litmus test for right and wrong, it is definitely a sin for our parents to have sex, is it not?Not to mention our married daughters.Let’s not think about these things!Not about heterosexuals, not about homosexuals. One day our culture will stop calling gay people by “sexual” names and embrace the gifts they bring to our world.I hope I live to see it.
The estimates of what percentage of the population is gay vary greatly, depending mainly on the “agenda” of the organization conducting the study.Studies conducted by those who see homosexuality as an atrocity, for example, tend to find far smaller percentages (1-2%) than studies conducted by organizations whose focus is mainly on homosexual advocacy (about 10%).The more trustworthy sources are those with no extreme bias.The American Psychological Association in 1989 estimated that 10% of men and 5% of women are gay.Personally, although I’m certain it is more than 1-2%, I will remain outside this argument, as it seems to me impossible to arrive at an accurate percentage for something most gay people are not going to disclose when asked by pollsters.If only 1% of Americans are gay, however, that would be over 3 million people.And if 10% are gay, that would mean over 30 million.
Who are gay people?They touch every segment of our population.
In my college days when I was trying to teach myself to play the guitar (a goal that’s not yet accomplished), the first song I taught myself to play was Come to the Water.Remember that one?“And Jesus said, Come to the Water, Stand by my side, I know you are thirsty, You won’t be denied.I felt every teardrop when in darkness you cried, and I strove to remind you that for those tears I died . . .”One of those campfire songs that spread quickly across the young Christian scene, much like “It only takes a spark to get a fire going . . .”Well, years later, churches were tearing this song out of their hymnals, and its popularity was squelched.Why?Because it was discovered that the writer, Marsha Stevens, was a gay woman. (See video below.)Never mind that she wrote music that inspired a generation of Christians, leading us to seek closer communion with God.She was quickly shunned by the Christian music industry.
More recently, gospel singer Kirk Talley who never even had a homosexual relationship, fell from "grace" after it was exposed that he confided in a friend his same-sex attractions. On Dec. 22, 2003, Kirk Talley, beloved Christian singer/songwriter ("Step Into the Water," "He Is Here," et.al.), Dove Award winner, Grammy nominee, the boyish-faced man dubbed "Mr. Gospel Music" found himself pleading to his friend to kill him, and to God to let him die. (GQ Magazine, August 2005)
In 2007 Evangelist Ted Haggard was exposed for a 3-year homosexual relationship.After three weeks of therapy, he claimed he was cured of years of homosexual struggle.He may have even believed it.(I believe in miracles, but have my doubts that this was one of them.)Then there was Rev. Gene Robinson of the Episcopal Church, and New Jersey governor James McGreevey.The Christian community hears these stories and sees sin.I hear these stories and see a culture that forces gay people to deny who they are, and the problems this inevitably brings.
Who are gay people?They as varied and unique as are heterosexuals.Their one distinction is that they are attracted to like-gendered partners.
To be treated with equality.Period.The term gay agenda is one of many political watch words, meant to set off our emotions.Every person and every group has some kind of agenda.Evangelicals want to Christianize the world.Merchants want to make money.Gay people want to be understood and respected.
WHY IS THE GAY POPULATION GROWING SO RAPIDLY?
It isn’t.The gay population, by all reputable evidence has remained fairly steady, percentagewise, throughout history.The recent difference is not that there are more gay people, but that, with the internet, cable tv, etc., more gay people are becoming comfortable enough to disclose their sexuality, and more are deciding to seek equal rights and recognition.
WHY ARE THERE GAY CHURCHES?
Not only do we like to condemn gay people for not going to church, but we like to condemn them for having churches of their own.What must they do in these churches? Probably sexual orgies, we speculate.The early church was similarly accused.They met privately and talked of such things as love feasts, drinking the blood, and eating the body.Many outside the church accused them of orgies and cannibalism.Having never been to a gay church, I cannot answer this question, but, like you, I have an opinion.I doubt the orgies.I suspect they are Christian people who desire to gather for worship and fellowship, and who unfortunately, are not welcome in our mainline churches.They could push themselves into our churches, and be told repeatedly they are living in sin and need to get right with God, an assertion that by the way, they know to be flawed much better than any of us, or they can create their own sanctuary where they can worship God with others who understand and accept them, or, as is the case for many, they can choose to stay away from organized churches altogether.
RESPONDING TO CHRISTIANREACTIONS:
1. Love the sinner, Hate the sin.This is probably our favorite response to the issue of homosexuality.It does have a nice ring to it, but it’s flawed on at least two levels.First, it assumes that homosexuality is a sin.And second, I have yet to see what that love for the sinner looks like.It is overshadowed by the hate for the sin.If we believe someone is living in abominable and repulsive sin, does he sense God’s love radiating from us? Henri Nouwen said it this way: "Compassion can never coexist with judgment because judgment creates the distance, the distinction, which prevents us from being with the other."I challenge us to refrain from SAYING this overused platitude, and to pray instead that we will be filled with God’s love.
2. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.This one is so trivial on so many levels, but some find it catchy.Without giving it more attention that it merits, here’s my quick response:God created trees, so does that mean he didn’t create broccoli?If Adam had green eyes, would that mean that God didn’t create people with brown eyes?Were we to take the time to examine the Hebrew words from which Adam and Eve were translated, there would be more fodder for discussion, butI’ll move on . . .
3. The Bible says be fruitful and multiply.Again, I could write an entire blog responding to this one argument, but I won’t.We have amply populated the earth, too amply, many would argue. Embracing homosexuals as our brothers and sisters would not cause everyone else to stop populating.Homosexuality is not a choice.A certain percentage of people are homosexual, despite what laws we may have for or against, and a much larger percentage of the population will continue to multiply, no matter how much we try to stop it.(Look at our teen pregnancy rates, etc.)The earth is already filled with unwanted and exploited children, in need of love and attention.And Jesus, by the way, was not a physical “multiplier,” just as many others in the NT were not.
4. If we don’t stop homosexuals, it will open the door for polygamy and bestiality.Polygamy and bestiality have no relation whatsoever to homosexuality.This has become one of the many alarmist slogans within the opposing political agenda (yes, we ALL have our agendas), meant to appeal to uninformed peoples’ vulnerability.Polygamy and bestiality are behaviors, and behaviors are choices.This political agenda will continue to do all it can to convince us that sexual orientation is also a behavior and a choice.Studies have shown the more times we hear something, the more solidly we start to believe it, and the slogan repeaters are well aware of this.Studies have noted that bestiality practices are not uncommon among boys who grow up on a farm, but if true, I have never heard of anyone desiring to marry his chicken.(I know, “ick” again!)
5. Gay people cannot be Christian unless they repent and change.Nor can any of us.But orientation is not a need for repentance.Jesus said narrow is the gate that leads tolife.Narrow indeed for all people, but orientation has no direct correlation with whether a person is or is not Christian.(Indirect, yes, because the churches have shunned the homosexuals.)Nationally recognized organizations like Soulforce, Evangelicals Concerned, Gay Christian Network, and segments of many major denominations,are set up specifically to nurture and encourage Christian gay people.Every major denomination has begun struggling with this issue or most probably will have to do so soon.All the answers for the church are not easy, but may we at least reach the point of understanding that gay and Christian and not by nature antithetical.The most quoted verse of the Bible says WHOSOEVER believes will have eternal life.(John 3:16)
6. Protect the American family.Another political watch word.What does this really mean?Is the American family healthy without gay people?Why are we not wanting to put regulations on how easy it is to marry?Or to divorce?A quick glance into any public school classroom will give witness that the Leave It to Beaver family is not alive and well.Do you know what homosexuals are doing to fit into society?They are marrying your daughters.They love them and try their best to be good husbands, but they will inevitably hurt their “American family”, even if they never stray, because she will always know that something is not right, or wonder what’s wrong with her that she doesn’t please him.
7. I don’t believe people are born gay.OK, without getting too deep into the age old argument of nature vs. environment, it is technically true that humans do not fully develop a sense of sexuality prior to puberty.However, it seems more and more apparent, that there is indeed a genetic factor involved, that some people are biologically predisposed to same sex attractions, and to deny this is to bury our heads in the sand.Ignorance and closed minds are among Christianity’s worst enemies.
Herein is the crux of what divides us as Christians on this issue:Do homosexuals choose to be homosexual?Traditionalist Christians adamantly say yes, and if this were true, I would agree.Homosexuality would be a sin.If it is true, however, that homosexuality is genetically determined, much like eye color, tongue rolling, left-handedness, etc. (which is becoming more and more scientifically probable), then we are essentially saying that it is a sin for these people to be born.A homosexual person can no more deny his same-sex attractions than can a heterosexual deny his.
A century ago we were shouting that pianos in the church were of the devil.Then we shouted that abolition was of the devil.We shout that women in ministry is an outrage.And we quote Scripture to back up all our claims.Now, if the question is about homosexuality, our automated answer is “abomination.”Even Southern Baptist Seminary President Al Mohler recently blogged of the likelihood that homosexuality is biological, and found himself in the line of attack.One thing is for sure, either people are born gay or they are not, and that truth is not dependent on what we think about it.
8. Well, if they can’t change, they should just remain celibate.Some choose this path, just as do some heterosexuals, but history (and Scripture) has shown us that celibacy is not the overall answer.We are created as sexual beings, and that sexuality will likely come out perversely if not naturally, especially, I believe, in men, even if entered into with the sincerest of intentions.Consider, for example, the Catholic priesthood.And consider personally being told to live celibately. Not them. You.
9. If they repent, God will heal them. Again, the fallacy here is the assumption that orientation is a sin. The response of such evangelical leaders as Dr. James Dobson and Jerry Falwell has been to cure homosexuals. Dr. Dobson has advocated the use of so-called ex-gay ministries such as Exodus International. Prior to 2000 Dr. Dobson's Focus on the Family featured their own John Paulk, "the story of how one man overcame homosexuality." In 2000, however, when Paulk was spotted in a gay bar, he quickly disappeared from the organization family.
Interestingly, even the president of Exodus International agrees there is no "cure" for homosexuality. People do not choose their feelings, he says. They can only choose their behavior.
What do you think of the cultures that “cure” female sexuality by mutilating the genitals of the young girls? Why do we want to "cure" what needs no cure?
3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
Let’s look at a hypothetical scenario.We probably all choose to think of nuns as asexual beings, but that is not reasonable, as sexuality is a part of the human experience.Nuns, however, have chosen a life of celibacy, choosing not to act on their sexuality.But does that make them less heterosexual or homosexual?No, it doesn’t.If she is heterosexual but celibate, the church reveres her.If she is homosexual and celibate, do we call her a sinner?If so, we are wrong.If not, we must then realize a distinction between orientation and behavior.And if we cannot even fathom the concept of a homosexual celibate nun, we are disillusioned and are choosing to live in our own box, isolated from much of God’s Truth.
So, yes, I am saying that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not a sin.That said, however, what is done with that orientation is indeed a choice and can certainly lead to sin, for both homosexual and heterosexual people.Promiscuity is sin.Adultery is sin.Attraction, however, is basic human instinct.
SO IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A SIN, HOW SHOULD A GAY PERSON LIVE HIS LIFE?
How should a heterosexual live his life?First and foremost devoted wholly to God, and second, actively loving and caring for others.Jesus said this is the greatest commandment.For all of us.Further, he should seek a committed monogamous relationship with a compatible Christian (unless he chooses celibacy), and should flee from all promiscuous or adulterous behavior.
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. 22:39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
I am a quiet, reserved, and peace-loving person, but one of my deepest passions is speaking out for those who are being treated unjustly.My heroes are men like Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr., both of whom had their flaws, but both of whom courageously took unpopular stands for the social issues of their day.Another of my heroes, Thomas Jefferson, left his mark so wonderfully on our great nation.A man of highest intelligence.A man who could see the social injustice of his day.A man who wrote into our declaration of independence “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”Yet, he kept his slaves.It was his culture.He would have been much more condemned by the culture of his day to fight against slavery, than to continue as he did.Two and a half centuries later, it is for this lack of social action that he is most criticized.I am not Thomas Jefferson, or Martin Luther King.But I am one human being living in my own historical era, and I cannot keep from speaking out.The church is wrong about this, clinging to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible, in my opinion, with Jesus’ life and ministry.
I blog because it breaks my heart to think of another generation of gay young people struggling alone without family or church support.Another generation of young people believing something is wrong with them and wasting years trying to change in order to fit in.Another generation of church outcasts, confused at why God must not love them and why He doesn’t answer their prayers to change them.I write because you might be his aunt.Or his teacher.Or his pastor.Or his parent.You might be her office mate.Or her neighbor.Or her child’s little league coach.For this reason I write, and I am not alone.
A most interesting Focus on the Family story you may have missed was in 1997, when FOTF co-founder Gil Alexander-Moegerle, having left the organization, wrote a letter of apology for FOTF's stands on homosexuality and women's issues. (This story of course was not broadcast, and Dr. Dobson certainly did not endorse it.)He could no longer keep silent. In his words: "I apologize to lesbian and gay Americans who are demeaned and dehumanized on a regular basis by the false, irresponsible, and inflammatory rhetoric of James Dobson's anti-gay radio and print materials." (See entire letter here.)
Christian organizations like Evangelicals Concerned, Gay Christian Network, and Soulforce are offering love and support. Even some individual churches of the most closed denominations are stepping out to welcome all who want to join them.More and more Christians are hearing the cry of the marginalized and oppressed.More and more are choosing to practice God's love.
BUT THE BIBLE SAYS . . .
Leviticus clearly states if a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination.Likewise a few other passages make similar statements.How then, if I am a Christian, can I write such a blog as this?
Prayerfully and fully believing it is God who propels me.
For those who strongly hold to a literalist understanding of the Bible (I don’t like the term inerrantist), this blog will be blasphemy.Your mind is set.May God bless you, and may we not be divided as brothers and sisters.
For the rest of you, if you are seeking God’s truth, not mine, not the church’s, but God’s, I challenge you in three areas:
1.Pray.Pray for God’s wisdom and discernment.Pray that He alone will lead your mind and heart to whatever is true.
2.Read.Seek writings of Christians who think differently from you, and try to really understand their position, even if you will later choose to reject it.We never get a full picture of any issue when what we know about the other side is what those on our side tell us.
3.Listen.Seek out people who are gay, and invite them to tell you their stories.When they first knew they were gay,what kind of struggles they have experienced,if they chose to be gay, how it has shaped their view of God, etc.Do not talk to them about their sin.Just listen.This may be a difficult one, because they may not be willing to share their stories with us.If not, it is probably because they perceive us as judgmental and closed-minded.Maybe we are . . .
The apostle Paul clearly states that women should be quiet in church.How do we know this is not God’s mandate for our society?We pray for God’s wisdom and discernment.We read what women in ministry advocates have to say.And we seek out God-called women and invite them to tell us their stories.We witness the Spirit of God moving in and through their lives.How do we know slavery is not acceptable for our society?Likewise.Get to know people.People of all races, male and female, Republican and Democrat, Episcopalian and Southern Baptist.Heterosexual and Homosexual.Listen to them.Understand them.Love them.
CONCLUDING THOUGHTS
Truth is absolute.No one human being has all of it, but truth is not based on what we believe or on a democracy of belief.Truth is not even based on the Bible.On the contrary, it is the Bible that is based on Truth.Truth is.There is no incompatibility between Science and God.God is the Creator of all of nature and its laws.Thus nothing in nature is in itself incompatible with Him.Human scientists sometimes get things wrong.Human Christians sometimes get things wrong.But true science and its Creator are always perfect Truth.I see it as my challenge on this earth to responsibly seek Truth in all things, and to readily admit that there is much I will never know, especially on controversial issues that divide even God’s people.I certainly do not have all the answers on this issue.I write, not to divide, but to challenge, because there are millions of people in our paths daily that Jesus has called us to love, not in word, but in heart.Sexual orientation alone is not a sin in the eyes of God.Of this I am most certain.
Sexual orientation is neither a behavior nor a lifestyle.It is a basic human instinct which can be denied for a time, but cannotand need not be “cured”.I blog to challenge our thinking, realizing at the same time that with issues such as this, most of us are so set in our opinions that no blog will penetrate our hearts.Forget this blog.Forget my words.But please open your heart on this subject, just enough to hear the occasional voices of the other side.Pray for your gay coworker daily (better yet, your gay son or brother), until you find yourself truly loving him, not flippantly, but compassionately.Then go for coffee, and invite him to tell you his story.Don’t tell him you don’t want him to go to hell.Don’t tell him you love him but hate his sin.Just be quiet and listen.
13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
May only God's truth be gleaned from my writings. Selah.
This blog is not meant to be representative of the views of this website or of my own church.
Added later: With so many comments, you may not have time to read all of them. For some personal testimonies, scroll to the following comments:
Christian Woman with Gay Nephew: July 14, 2008, 7:39pm Christian Gay Man (age 20s): July 17, 2008, 10:02am Christian Lesbian Grandmother: July 17, 2008, 12:52pm Married Christian Woman who left homosexual life: July 17, 2008, 2:13pm Christian Intersexed Man (age 30s): March 14, 2009, 8:58pm
Other personal stories are welcome, anonymous or otherwise. May God use all our stories for His glory!
A dear friend "confessed" his sexuality to me several years ago. I still this person. It did nor change how I feel. I DO believe however as you say, I will love him Steve, but not his sin! How could I turn my back? He feels as I am the only link he has to God. I need to convinse him otherwise.
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. 22:39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
I have a variety of friends, gay and straight. They are exactly that FRIENDS who I hold dear to my heart. I do look at them as black, white, straight or gay, They are my friends. I don't have converations with people who sit in judgement as to who is sinning and who isn't. I do not feel it is my place to judge, my place is to love.
I loved this blog and I sure did need it. I will be adding a blog for friends only & I will see how many still accept me for who I am after they learn what I am going to tell them. Maybe I will someday, but not right know.
A blog which has been written with a balance. I was wondering about this topic because a friend of mine asked about this. While I agree with you sexual orientation may not be a sin, I feel if two gays are united together for sexual act, it should be considered a sin. More over Jesus Christ himself says, even if we think in our minds (hearts) some thing wrong, should be considered a sin.as written in Mat 5:28 ( But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ) So I think If people are gay by instinct, we can not do anything but if they want to get married or be united as a couple then it is some thing else, because, marriage was instituted by God for the purpose of reproduction of human race in a well disciplined way. By being gays one can not achieve this purpose. Therefore it may not be natural.
How ever it requires further discussion to understand what Jesus would do if someone went to Him with a gay orientation.
Great post. I enjoyed the video, too. I had forgotten that song. Knowing the facts behind it now, it takes on a truly significant meaning...as do most of the songs we sing when we understand the heart of the writer.
Thank you for taking a stand and documenting your position so clearly. You have a good ability to articulate these tough subjects.
One thing I want to certainly "second" is your call to action. I even go so far to say that if someone hasn't spent time discussing life with a person who is in this lifestyle, then I don't really care what their opinion is. If they have indeed spent time walking alongside a person, then we can converse. As you point out, even the founder of Exodus, a ministry I worked with for three years, said that there is no "cure". However, he does believe that there are many people who make bad choices and get caught in a lifestyle they don't like and feel trapped. How many of us have felt that way about part of our lives?
My next point will be read wrong by a lot of people. It is hard to discuss with a few words. You touched on it on your list from the Bible. If we truly want to believe that everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally, then that list has to be applied to each of our lives. If so, then I am the chief of sinners (where have we heard that?). If so, then who amongst us can be saved? We are not saved by keeping the law, but only through His grace. My point here is that EVEN IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WE ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. HIS BLOOD, HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION PAID THE PRICE FOR ALL OUR SINS, PAST AND FUTURE! IT IS ONLY BY HIS GRACE THAT WE CAN BE SAVED. One sin is not greater than any other sin. They all separate us from God. Praise God we are not measured on the basis of our ability to keep the law!
So my advice to people who think their gay brother or sister is a greater sinner than they are - get over it. If you can't find a way to love one another, then you have an issue with God. Go get that plank out of your eye before we address your brother or sister.
BTW, I would like to know your thoughts on gluttony. That seems to be rampant in our churches today. Perhaps it is time we started making those people feel less than human, too. (sarcastically stated)
Last comment for now...I do believe you are dead on with your thoughts about sexuality confusion in our society. Perhaps over another glass of tea we could discuss this further. I personally think if people would turn off the tv, spend the time loving their family and neighbor, we would see a whole different complexion in our society and perhaps less confused people...but who will do this?
Patti, you are a good friend! Your comment highlights the greatest tragedy in this entire issue: that so many gay people believe their perception of the church's assessment that, God does not love them. I will pray for your friend, and you are welcome to share this blog with him if you think it would help.
Mstovall, I love you! :)
Juan, I agree there is no distinction between homosexual adultery and heterosexual adultery. Adulterous behavior is sin. Your dad was a wise man!
Bestemor, thank you, my friend!
Megan, a prayer for you tonight.
Ragland, your view is a popular one. Thank you for sharing it!
Voice, wow! What excellent and thought-provoking comments! I love your spirit, and the tea will happen one day!
Balanced blog Kathy, a viewpoint strongly defended. I would have to agree that a person's sexual orientation is not itself sinful, nor should homosexual persons ever be condemned or excluded from participation in a church. Where I struggle with this blog is with the insistence that folks are being condemning, just because they believe the bible's apparently clear wording on this issue represents God's mind (or did I misread). Most Christians I know, whose faith is a BIG part of their lives (i.e. living by the Spirit), are very kind to homosexuals, even having homosexual friends!! We do!
I believe the offense to many Christians isn't the lifestyle itself, but the advocacy of the lifestyle.
An aside, I'd like to know how you defend a statement such as "Homosexuality as we think of it today was nonexistent in both OT and NT times", particularly in light of Solomon's observation (inspired by the Spirit of God) that "there is nothing new under the sun" (history repeats itself), plus pure logic....why would this "pure instinct" be a new phenomenon??
ps... Many have successfully come out of the homosexual lifestyle. You'll find some of their testimonials are here.
I loved this piece and how you have identified your purpose to speak out for those who are denied entry into Christian fellowship because they are 'different'. This is a lovely balanced-insightful-scholarly article and reminds me of the writing of one of my fave writers, Philip Yancey. I am right on the same page with you, Girl. I have a friend in our particular faith community who is 'accepted' because he is a gifted musician and a great teacher-- we'd be lost without him in our fellowship and others recognize that, thankfully. He is much beloved because he is so naturally loving and kind. I believe he has had a huge impact on our church community's perspective on homosexuality because I have not heard any recent demeaning allusions to same-sex marriage (the big bugaboo in our previous church community).
Kathy, I wonder if you would allow me to copy your article (with any byline you choose) to my blog Most Amazing Prophecies in the Comox Valley? If you are not comfortable with this, please let me know. I just think it would be of value for me to get out there on my blog for my particular readership (not huge, but decent).
Mike, thank you for your comments. I can vouch for your love for all people. It shows!
As for the condemnation question, my point was not that a literal interpretation of Scripture is condemning (did I understand you correctly?), but that those who do condemn usually do so based on a literal interpretation of the Scripture. This is not a blog against literal interpretation, but I pointed out that I believe our mode of interpreting Scripture very strongly correlates to our positions on homosexuality.
I didn't understand your comment: "I believe the offense to many Christians isn't the lifestyle itself, but the advocacy of the lifestyle." Can you explain what you meant by that? If the "lifestyle" is not offensive, why would "advocating" it be offensive? And what exactly is "the lifestyle," and what do you mean by "advocating," just so we're on the same page.
Your other question: I carefully said "Homosexuality as we think of it today" was nonexistent in OT and NT times. I certainly agree with you that homosexuality has existed in every culture of every time in history. It's the culture around it that has changed. There is no evidence that OT or NT cultures had any concept of same-sex couples being monogamous partners. They more likely married the opposite sex and had same-sex relationships at the same time, without the taboos of our culture.
I'm glad you posted the Exodus link again. There are indeed many testimonials posted on such sites, and I believe they are written in sincerity. Anyone, homosexual or heterosexual, can, for a time, commit to celibacy or to whatever he believes God must want him to do, expecially when under immense social pressure to do so. Eventually however, maybe 2 years later, maybe 5 . . ., those commitments are likely to crumble, leaving the gay person feeling like a failure. See my story above about the Exodus member adopted by Focus on the Family, who quickly disappeared from the ministry after being spotted in a gay bar again a couple of years later. I have listened to many such stories, and even some of gay couples who met each other in the ex-gay ministries. I have never heard anyone look back 5 years of more and say he was cured, although I certainly can't say there's no such story. The concept of ex-gay is a flawed one. Can you imagine being cured of heterosexuality? As Christians we have to move from seeing homosexuality as something that needs to be cured, and accept it as the way some people are made. Then we can share the Gospel with them in a meaningful way.
Cynthia, thank you for your very encouraging words! You are very welcome to repost my blog, as long as you include a link either to this blog or to my profile page, as identification. Thanks, and I'll add your readers to my prayers for this blog! May God word as He sees fit!
Your blog is thought provoking and will inevitably warrant a carefully thought out and well documented response. Regretfully, no matter where one stands on this issue, orientation, or understanding of "diversity," you have chosen a polarizing topic.
Your wording reveals quite clearly your heart's desire to attempt to cross-pollinate centuries of culture, principle, and traditional thinking. However, I am concerned that there is ambiguity in your choice of terms, there is a clear slant on your "truth", and your thesis is the predictable antithesis of those in the Church world who do not hold to your "truth".
My love and compassion for all, including the gay community, is evident in my attempt to always listen with an open heart to those who are positioned on a different side of the spectrum from me. My wife is involved at National level in understanding and evaluating "diversity" in the workplace as part of her career and we dialogue much, as a Ministerial family, regarding her findings and what we can learn regarding "diversity" and the Church world.
Even more so, I have a gay brother who is just as active in the gay community as I am in the Christian community! I love my brother dearly and would give my life for him! When visiting NYC, I spend ample time with him and do not "shun" him nor keep him from my children. That too is an extreme, unfair, biased, and unkind approach many on the other side of the spectrum take toward the Church. Not all Churches shun, not all Churches see "sin," not all Churches cling "to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible ... with Jesus’ life and ministry."
Consequently, my dialogue with him is quite in-depth and candid as we both attempt to identify if ever "oil and vinegar" (the Church community and the Gay community) will ever mix though they share the same bottle! In other words, will the Church and the gay community ever come to terms on definitions, scholarly translations (not politically correct ones), gender identity, human sexuality, God, sin, and absolutes? Will either side ever accept what the other is saying? Will either side honestly sacrifice conviction in order to accommodate love and unity?
Dr. Wilson, thank you for your thoughtful response, especially this: "Not all Churches shun, not all Churches see "sin," not all Churches cling "to traditional judgments that are increasingly incompatible with scientific truth, and incompatible ... with Jesus’ life and ministry." You are so right that there are churches that do not take such a position, and I apologize if I gave the impression that all do. When I refer generally to "the church," I am speaking of the vast majority, but certainly, as you pointed out, not all. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say THANK YOU to those churches who already get this!
Your brother is fortunate to have such open dialogue with you. I will pray for him. Is he a Christian? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "gay community," but "gay" and "Christian," as I stated in my blog, are not antithetical.
"Predictable antithesis"? LOL Allow me to think that you are just a very intelligent reader! :)
As for the slant, definitely so. Slant, not in the sense of untruth, but in the sense that I am more interested in presenting the position I believe to be truth than in presenting the opposing viewpoint. Such are opinion blogs, right? :) Pastor Tim, however, has written a good blog from the other position: http://www.mychurch.org/blog/214173/Is-Homosexuality-Okay-It-is-isnt-it-Or-is-it
You said "those who do condemn usually do so based on a literal interpretation of the Scripture." I would say folks who actually condemn these people do so based on that literal interpretation PLUS other motives, be it personal insecurity, pride, fear, etc. A literal interpretation of scripture by itself does not necessarily lead to condemnation. I say this b/c there are plenty of delightful Christians who interpret God's words literally who do not condemn. (Of course, condemnation of the lifestyle does not equate to condemnation of individuals, but you addressed that already.) You obviously know that folks who post a response here that is less than 100% in agreement w/your position are not necessarily condemning.
By offense being taken against advocacy of the lifestyle, I was referring to efforts to force approval of the lifestyle on people who disagree on scriptural grounds. I love my gay neighbors, they'll tell you that. But if a law was passed that mandated my children would have to attend classes in which they were taught that the gay lifestyle was simply another healthy alternative to heterosexual monogamy, then I would have a very big problem. (There are plenty of advocates who would indeed advocate for this, though I simply use it as an example!)
Regarding those who fall back, I've known guys formerly with an addiction to porn slip back. Perhaps we put too much pressure on ex-homosexuals to be new, different, "normal", etc. After all, if they slip back, God is discredited, and their salvation is a lie. (tongue in cheek) I'm not saying they need to be "cured", but I also believe in God's power to change anyone. He changed me after all.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. God bless! ~mike
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I can see your position and respect it, as probably the one most Christians today would adopt, although it is not the position I have taken here. Your position, if I understand correctly, says Homosexuals are living in sin, but we love them and treat them with respect. I am saying, Homosexuality is not in itself a sin, and we love them and treat them with respect.
Again, I had no intention of implying that all who call themselves inerrantists are condemning of homosexuality. My blog was written to those who look at homosexuality as inherently sinful, and my observation is that almost all of these people happen to be inerrantists, which makes perfect sense, does it not? What would keep us from seeing these truths except that we believe Scripture is telling us it is wrong?
I suspect we are also using the word "condemn" somewhat differently. When I say condemn, I am often using that interchangeably with "assert as inherently a sin." If I believe the homosexual by nature is living in sin, I am in that sense condemning him. That doesn't mean I say mean things to him or I treat him badly.
I'm still not sure what the homosexual "lifestyle" you talk about is. As for the advocacy, the position you take only makes sense from the "homosexuality is wrong" point of view. All of us advocate what we believe in.
And the "falling back" also comes from your position. If, as I have asserted here, homosexuality itself is not a sin, then to realize that ex-gay programs do not work would not be "falling back." Backsliding necessarily involves sin.
Mike, you and I are not together on this issue. You, however, have much great company on your side, and I respect all who believe as you do, as that is how most of us have been taught (self included). I'm glad you are kind to your neighbors, and I know you well enough to know that you are! Love to you, brother!
Just a quick comment...I am not sure heterosexual monogamy is the scriptural approach...there are plenty of men who had multiple wives...one that we even say "was a man after God's own heart"...plus there are commandments that direct the marrying of one's brother's wife if he dies before she is able to give him kids, etc...
Let's face it...the preferred way, God's way, is a world without sin...we only get there through his grace...has nothing to do with lifestyle...
Side note: the comment Mike makes about laws being passed to teach kids certain subjects is why the church needs to be the church and the government not interfere with raising our kids. If Mike doesn't want his kids taught such things, then I want him to have alternatives. Another subject for another time, perhaps.
LOL, Voice. I agree that OT law is not the place to learn about monogamy! Again, however, from a combined cultural and Biblical perspective, I suspect you would agree that monogamy (unless called to celibacy) is what God desires of us in this culture? Sexuality was a much looser concept in the OT cultures.
Cathy Hi ! I am filled with compassion and concern towards the sexually oriented brothers and sisters now. I have learnt to love them, even as Christ loves them. I am sure your blog is going to have a great impact on the church leaders and people who are going to read.
Hi Kathy-- I'm loving the dialogue of commenters almost as much as the blog post itself!
I've set up your blog to be reposted on my Most Amazing Prophecies for the Comox Valley blog on Wednesday, July 16th. I'd like to include your surname in the credit, if that is okay with you... I can't find it, though. I've linked it back to this blog. I am so grateful for the privilege of doing this reposting... is it possible to do that with other blogs of yours? You seem to express so much of what I believe, but you say it in a much more organized and elegant/eloquent/scholarly way.
Hi Cynthia! I will go visit your blog, and will keep in my prayers as I pray for this one. I don't use my full name on-line, but a link to my profile or blog will serve well as identification. And, yes, you may do the same with any of my other blogs, as long as they are linked the same way! Writing is best when shared! Thank you for your kind words, and may God bless and use the sharing!
That is fine with me Kathy (re your use of your first name only) and I am just so excited to be allowed to share your fine writing from my blog as well.... I am going away to camp at the end of July and plan to schedule to repost about four of your blogs during that time.... thank you soooo much! I will let you know which ones I post.
Good Blog! I may not always think the way you do or the way others act or the way I act at times we are all sinners and Jesus said if you broke one of the Comments you have broken them all.And we are saved by Grace and should work together to spread the Good News Jesus died for us sinners and we need to take Him into our hearts. So with that I love you sister!And someday I hope to be there in Glory with you where we all our just children of The Most High!!!
I have read your research paper. Because your hermenutics are flawed it is natural that your positions to follow will be flawed as well. Though I can sincerely appreciate the intent of your writing, I can not accept it as truth. Humans are depraved. We are all sinners. The very thing that I condemn somebody in, I myself may end up doing. I don't judge anyone nor do I hate anyone. If someone is gay, then they are in sin. They need to repent of it. I have unbiblical feelings too, but I supress them and die to self. It is the same for people with homosexual tendiencies. They must supress them and repent of them. To accept their behavior is to water down the holy standards of God. I accept them as people. They are not less than anyone in my opionon. As you have so aptly pointed out, they have made and are making great contributions to society. I agree that opinions change over time and hard line positions soften over time, but this is just too obvious to accept as true. One thing that really jumped out at me in your presentation was the discounting of the ability to change. There are miracles and the Holy Spirit regenerates us and makes us a new creation. There is power to change, and if there is not, then we are all kidding ourselves that God is real. It is a nice and sweet notion that homosexuality is just misunderstood and that God created the homosexual that way, and that we should embrace and accept it. But, to do so compromises the integrity of the Scriptures and the holiness of God. We are to love everyone, and to share the gospel of them. I personally think that though you think your doctrine preaches acceptance and love it actuality it preaches hopelessness. "If we can't change it we might as well accept it." I don't buy it, and I don't accept it. If I am wrong, I pray that the Holy Spirit will soon teach me the truth. I am not perfect and do not profess to know the mind of God on everything. I do love you though. I love your scholarship and your passion. You have been a blessing to me personally and want to go on record of saying that I think you are great! I just don't agree with you on this.
Todd, thank you for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. Of course I posted this knowing it would miss a few amens! :) You said "Because your hermenutics are flawed it is natural that your positions to follow will be flawed as well." This statement is a kind of summary of the two polar positions of Scripture interpretation, isn't it? What both sides opine of the other. As I stated in the blog, those who adamantly refer to themselves as inerrantists will find the entire premise of this blog erroneous. That was expected, and I respect and understand that position.
I agree we are all sinners, saved solely by God's grace. But I do not believe being born heterosexual is a sin, do you? But homosexual is?? When did you choose to be attracted to females? Or was it just a part of who you were?
Do I believe God can change people? Of course! Any time and any way He chooses. I also believe that most of the time He chooses to let nature take its course. If, for example, I pray to be two inches taller, He is the omnipotent Creator of the Universe and can certainly handle such a feat, but it is not likely that He will. I think if you will personally listen to 10 homosexuals' stories, face to face, you will question your position on orientation change.
I always enjoy hearing from you, and I have to love a guy who disagrees but still gives a star! :) Thanks, Todd, for not just skipping over such a controversial blog! If we took a MyChurch vote, I'm sure your side would win!
The Psalmist wrote: "In sin did my mother conceive me." In other words we inherited a sin nature. Because man kind has rejected the knowlege of God He has given us up to vile passions. It doesn't matter the way I am born. I am born a reprobrate and I will die a reprobate if I am not regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Having homosexual tendencies is not any more a sin, than me excuse the expression but it fits "a horny man." These passions must be nailed to the cross. If I walk in the Spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. To engage in homo-sexual conduct is sinful. It is the will of God that we abstain from immorality. I personally think that homosexuality is a choice, but I am not adamant on that position. If they are born that way, how is it any different that me being born with any other sinful affinity or propensity? There is no excuse for sin. Sin must be confessed as such and we must repent of that sin. God does not condemn us for our sin, but He does say to us, "Go and sin no more." I have talked with many homosexuals through out my life. I am intrigued. I understand that they are shunned by society and pay a heavy price for who they are. I personally feel like with any sin, that as long as we hold on to it and not turn from it we give place to the devil in our life and we never experience personal victory over sin. I feel that you have accepted homosexuality as being OK and rather than fight it and crucify it, you encourage others to embrace it. Maybe I am wishful thinking, but I believe God will and can change a person from the inside out. I have based my life upon this truth and experienced it's own power in my life to change. What God has done for me He can do for others as He "no respector of persons" (I hate that phrase ever since one of my teen age children asked me why God doesn't respect people?) Kathy, there is no way, I could ever malign you. Even if I think you are wrong. Please don't bring this to a vote or put me on one side or another. Yes, I am a little hard core like the Fundamentalist but I would much rather be known as a person who loves. All men will no you are my disciples if you love one another. There is enough division in the body of Christ without calling a vote! That is the Southern Baptist coming out in you! Let's just work it out and excercise forebearance.
Kathy, Here's where I am going to respectfully disagree with you. I can see no format where homosexuality can be considered in any fashion except as sin. This does no mean I will condemn or shun people of that lifestyle, but even in the process of loving them I cannot view an active gay lifestyle as anything else but sinful. In it's essence homosexuality assumes active same sex sexuality. If that is taking place outside of marriage, then there is sin, and marriage, at it's core concept is heterosexual. I still wonder if our present society is , for those not in same sex relationships, confusing preference for same sex friendships as homosexuality. It's like society assumes homosexuality is a necessary response to strong same sex friendships.
Hi Dennis! I didn't expect to bring everyone along with me on this one! Some of us are so deeply rooted in our theologies that a blog will not even leave a dent. In my experience, set opinions on issues like this one will not be changed by words, but only by having to walk alongside a loved one's struggle, which brings us to a personal crisis of belief and years of prayer and study. I will respond to you only that sexual orientation does not necessarily assume active sexuality. The unfortunate name we have given it makes that difficult to digest, but there is truth there nonetheless. If a Christian man marries at 25 still a virgin, was he not heterosexual at age 24? Your final comment I am completely unfamiliar with and cannot even fathom it, although I know some of the younger generation freely experiments with both sexes, which is certainly a sad scenario. Thank you, Dennis, for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I always like hearing from you.
hello Kathy.I'm interested in this topic.I attend PFLAG meetings where I live as a support group.My brother is gay and happy with his life choices.He is married to a guy named Bob.I have struggled for many years with who and what i am sexually.I find that I have had a hard time finding support in the church or among my christian friends.I have had only one sexual experience with a woman.It was terrible.She was on drugs was abusive and veryu controlling.The cops were called and she was taken away.she still writes me on facebook and I delete her messages.I really want her to leave me alone. To be hoest I want to be closer to God and I feel that in order to do that I have to put these feelings that I have for woman away.I have to ignore them or not act on them.To be honest I do enjoy both sexes.At this point in my life I don't really want to be with anyone.Cause anyone that I've been with has hurt me alot.Can we talk on this subject sometime?
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly…
Proverbs 16:25 – There are many ways that man tries to justify these sins, the Word of God, says that the ways that man sees as right lead only to death.
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall be joined to his wife: and they shall be one flesh
The simple fact that much of your argument is based on Science, the same Science that believes that all we see around us, the wonderful works that God has created, came about by the "Big Bang," is disturbing to me. The Word of God clearly states that homosexuality is a sin, and God hates sin, and loves the sinner, pardon the cliche. But it also displeases God when his children shun sinners for any reason. Homosexuality is a CHOICE, there is no way around it, and as much as I want to see as many people make to heaven as possible, sin cannot enter in to the presence of a HOLY GOD!!! I want to warn you anytime that you base something more off of science than the Word of God, that is very dangerous!
Here's the 'hit the hornet's nest with a stick comment' - call it a slippery slope argument if you want:What if 'science' found that the desire to rape and mutilate children was 'biological' and 'not a conscious choice'? Would we start accepting that? Make scripture fit that fact? Of course not (I hope!).
My point? I don't like trying to fit in the 'science' into something that can be backed up fully by Scripture (and this comment coming from a scientist!!!)
There was a lot written here in this blog, and a lot responded. I think it comes down to this.
The ACT is a sin - heck, much like the heterosexual counterpart, the LUSTING in one's HEART over the ACT is a sin (Jesus said it about a man and a woman, it'd hold true here).
But, so is HATING someone - you're a murderer.
So is stealing, or lying...etc.
We accept alcoholics, drug addicts, wife-beaters, ex-cons, etc. into a church community. We should accept homosexuals.
But it's something obvious I think we overlooked here:
In order to "REPENT" (turn away from) a sin, we have to turn towards God and STOP those sins.
I can't keep drinking or doing drugs or stealing or beating my wife and say I'm a Christian - because I haven't REPENTED of my sins - I'm sinning!
If there has been no repentance, then how are we supposed to act? Well, we should be guiding them by scripture and leading them by that.
Take the heterosexual example again: a new 'couple' comes to your church and they're not married, but you know they have a kid and are living together. Or what about the single guy that's got a new girl every week? One of the sins they're committing is the SAME sin that the homosexual person is - ADULTERY (sex outside of marriage) as the homosexual person.
But how do we treat that? Well, we try to get them to get married or stop having pre-marital relations (even though some are not CALLED to be married).
The problem lies in the fact that there is no recourse for a homosexual to 'allow' them to commit those acts within God's laws. So they must be celibate.
But guess what? All the single folks at your church have to be celibate too! If you're going to condemn a homosexual for their sexual acts, you should condemn the single heterosexual person at your church for the same sin (adultery, even lusting in one's heart).
My point is not to tell where to condemn, but to stop the hypocrisy in this 'special case' of sin that many have turned it into.
Dear Kathy, I respect you as a person of intelligence and compassion. I also respect you for attending a rather strict part of the Body of Christ, while bravely holding to your own views. I admire the strength of character that opts for peace in the midst of such cognitive dissonance, because you realize that perfection is not found anywhere in Christ's precious Church. However, please don't be mad at me if I believe that your blog fails the test of logic on so many levels.
The first failure is that of guilt by association. You prepare our minds to accept homosexuality by comparing it with some pretty silly ideas in church history. That is a misleading and inconsistent argument.
Secondly, you fall into the same trap as the homosexual movement itself, in insisting that a genetic marker for eye coloring is the same as that for a behavior. Yet, more recent scientific commentary basically exposes that myth for what it is. Positive, negative and even value-neutral behavioral characteristics such as artistic genius, criminal behavior or hand gestures do definitely have a genetic source, but are also influenced by environment. We do not have a choice in eye-color. We do in behavior.
Again, you have compared apples and oranges in your scripture list to try and "classify" homosexuality in the same genre as ceremonially clean and unclean laws from the OT and Paul's cultural comments about hair length. While I understand the point that you are trying to make, it manages to sidestep New Testament scriptures which directly contradict that very classification, by declaring homosexuality to be something that would keep precious people out of heaven (1 Cor 6:8-10; 1 Tim 1:10).
Another failure is addressing the wonderful success of groups like Exodus, who point to many examples of people who have changed from homosexual behavior. Giving one or two examples of failure does not prove anything. We need to examine all the facts, not just those that support a preconceived conclusion.
Lastly, I agree with you on something. There are those who are homosexual in orientation, just as there are those who are artistic in orientation, criminal in orientation and even oriented towards many other characteristics both positive, negative and neutral. Plenty of those who are homosexual in orientation simply choose not to act out their procivity, just as those with artistic genius, criminal potential or even value-neutral traits choose not to act upon such impulses. It is still a choice.
We cannot blame behavior on a genetic marker alone. That is simply not good science. Claiming that genetic markers create a non-choice makes science a lie of political convenience, and ignores the voices of those scientists who disagree with that conclusion.
However, science cannot give us the answer to values. Science cannot excuse good or bad or neutral behavior by genetic markers. Where then do we get our values? If we get them from science alone, we are all in trouble. If we get them from the concensus of non-believers, then we are all in trouble.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christianity will be apologizing for a great many things some day. I hope that Christians someday do repent of their mistreatment of homosexuals. However, I do not believe that we should apologize for the theological definition of homosexuality as sin. I think that is pretty clear throughout the entire Bible as a statement of fact in both the OT and NT.
A principle of biblical interpretation is that the plain meaning is the main meaning. The problem with intelligent people is that they can find more ways to reason their way around clear biblical statements. To pat someone on the head and say that we now accept their sin without need for repentance, when God does not, does them a real disservice. Our concern ought to be to seriously search the Scriptures as Bereans on this topic, not with prejudice aforethought, but with a teachable heart that is willing to change even if it seems disgusting to us when we confront the truth.
Having done that, I do not believe that the orientation towards homosexuality is any more of a sin than the orientation towards adultery or fornication. However, I conclude that the act and thought of homosexuality are equal sins to the act and thought of adultery or fornication.
With that personal conclusion, I am now thank God for those who find compassionate and loving ways of helping these precious souls re-orient their lives heavenward.
To all my fundamentalist and inerrantist brothers: I love you, I understand you, and I have walked where you walk. And because of this, this blog was not written for you. It is by nature of a part of your core belief structure that any idea outside your box is to be quickly stamped out without any thought or consideration, and I understand that you truly believe your mandate is of God. May He bless your work and use You as He so chooses. With Christian love, however, I must respond, for the sake of my other readers, that there is blindness in your view. I write a 6000 word blog, and you are only able to hear 5 words. Why? Because my assertion goes against something you believe is defined in the Holy Scriptures. There is much that is not settled by Scripture alone, and much that Scripture was never meant to answer. With Scripture alone we can condone slavery, polygamy, killing our backtalking children, and keeping our women in veils like the Muslims do. With Scripture alone we can condemn all those who work on Sundays, all those who eat shrimp, all those who envy, all those who gossip, and most who divorce. An inerrantist will never see the problems brought on by looking olny to Scripture for every answer in life. Again, with love (and I mean that), it appears that such ideology worships the Bible. I love the Bible because it points me to the One who alone is worthy of my worship, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but I do not worship it. The Bible is not without discrepancies, and it was never meant to be used as the book of life rules for which many are trying to use it. I do not plan to argue point by point with literalist thinking, as this would be pointless. We are different to the very core of this issue, not about homosexuality, but about Biblical interpretation, and no amount of talking will change that.
This blog was written out of love for two groups of people: 1. those who love someone who is gay and have been confused by the church about what it all means, and 2. those who are gay and whose lives may be better if someone they love happens to find my blog. My defense here is solid, but not posted for the sake of argument. It is posted to bring families together to understand each other in a way that the church as a whole has missed. It is meant to aid those who are hurting to look to beyond the church and the oft quoted passages of presumed condemation, to the face of Jesus. It is meant to let them know that the perfect God and the imperfect church are not one and the same.
Wyatt, my friend! Know what I love about you? Your consistency! You know exactly what you believe, and you speak out! You are the textbook inerrantist with Jesse Helms dependability. We know where you stand before you stand! Semper Fidelis fits you well! Thank you, Wyatt, for adding your position to this discussion, and thank you for being kind enough to give me a star! :)
Nathan, welcome to MyChurch! What a beautiful family! You write with intelligence, and I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts here. The Word of God is Christ Himself, so I am in agreement with you that basing an opinion on anything outside of Him would be foolish. However, science was created by God. God's creation is perfect, and pure science is perfect. The discrepancies are all human. Human scientists make errors. Human Christians make errors. But God and science are in perfect harmony. I'm happy to meet you, Nathan, and hope to see more of you in the blog conversations!
Growing, thank you for your comments. You also speak with intelligence, and make some good points, especially the final one, that even if one chooses to continue calling a person's sexual orientation a sin, why do we make it the sin above all sins? Where we differ is in classifying orientation as sin. And I don't think any exchange of words is powerful enough to change minds on that. Only God's Spirit and personal crisis of belief, brought about by love. Thank you for sharing! With respect.
Grant, I always value your intelligent perspective and respect your wisdom whether we agree or not. You are right to point out that my perspective (in general, though certainly not on this issue) is deeply rooted in in a very conservative religious background, coupled with having always lived in the South. Thus, as Dr. Wilson pointed out, I perceive that "all churches" are as the churches in the South, which I know to be untrue. You are wisely theologically safe as long as you consider homosexuality a sin, a line that is difficult to cross, but it must be and will be crossed one day. Thank you for adding to my blog!
Maddie, Thank you for mentioning PFLAG. PFLAG is a great organization for anyone who has a gay loved one, whether family or friend. It's always helpful when dealing with difficult circumstances to commune with others who share your experience and to learn from each other.
I hurt for you as I read your post, and I have spent much time in prayer for you since first reading it last night. During periods in my life when I have felt alone, it affects every part of my being. Everyone needs the love of family and friends. Loneliness for some can become so great that they are ready to settle for any relationship, usually sexual, because those are the easy ones for a woman to attract quickly (although they don't last). Maddie, sex is always the wrong answer regardless of which gender. Sex does not find love. It only confuses and depresses. If you have not read my blog on Love and Sex, you might glean something from reading it. My most loving advice to you is to join a couple of interest groups and attend them regularly. Friendships can come slowly, but the slower they develop, the stronger they usually are. What are you interested in? There may churches in you area (not necessarily yours) that have some special groups also. Find them, and get involved, even if you don't make friends immediately.
As for the woman in your past, I wonder, Maddie, if you have really put her in the past. Sometimes we say we want someone to leave us alone, but our actions speak differently. By your own testimony, it is obvious this is not a healthy relationship in any way. My advice to you is this: If you have not recently done so, send her a Facebook message that you are moving on in your life and do not wish to hear from her again. Then, immediately, now, today, block her on Facebook. No excuses, Maddie. You are ready to move on, or you are hanging onto her. Let her go.
I will continue to pray for you as God brings you to mind. And you are welcome to message me privately if it will help to share your story. I will quietly listen and pray.
Shannon, I love the visual! :) Of course, my response is that everything in life is not black and white, especially from our limited human understanding, but many of us need to make such clarity. I appreciate your personal story, and will not detract from it. There is without a doubt much sin that involves sex, regardless of gender, and to play games with that is extermely harmful both emotionally and spiritually. I am glad you have found the peace God had for you. Thank you for sharing yourself with us so personally.
Inevitably a post like this generates many messages sent privately. I just received a funny tongue-in-cheek link that's too good not to share: godhatesshrimp.com
I can see that you have spent a lot of thought and careful research with this one. While I do respect you and your position. If I may respectfully say that you assume that this is more of a matter of opinion. When its not. Yes all sexual acts outside of Gods boundaries (marriage) are sinful. But homosexuality you are not born with. Its very very different than hetrosexuality. Its never Gods plan. He calls it an abomination. And if we can ever get used to it or warm up to the idea of homosexuality being okay. Where did we as a church go wrong? Oh and in reference to the Old Testament scriptures. Those rules were what is called the old covenant. He created those for obvious sanitary reasons. I am nowhere near an expert in that matter. But when Jesus died for us, the old convenant was replaced with the new convenat. That was where we got rid of animal sacrificing, the sabbath and case laws. Remember when Peter had the dream of a net of animals coming down and Jesus saying that He had purified them all? and that it was safe for them to now eat?
And when God said to not mix the different fabrics. It was a visual sign of the Isrealites, it set them apart from every other nation. So people could just look at them and know that they were Gods people. When Jesus died, He extended His covering to everyone, to all the gentiles. So they didnt need to mix their fabrics anymore. You just had to accept Jesus as your savior and you were then Gods child. Homosexuality is a whole different story.Its not even in the same class as those rules. God did not change His mind on that..and He never will. It will always be wrong.
And about the rebellios kids being stoned to death..that was in refernce to if they tried to hit them. And hitting a parent means you are so hard and you are one step away from being a murderer. So, God through that was preventing future killings. And the uncircumsised male thing still is in affect. Except now its not a literal cutting away of the flesh. When we become saved God performs a circumision in our hearts.
And when you said that the Bible isnt the sole truth..that it was simply based on truth. Its almost hinting that it wasnt infallible. Each letter and word in their is Gods divine spoken words. They are perfect soaked in truth. In the beginning was the word (Bible) and the word was with God and the word WAS God.
There was several other things, but I do appreciate you posting this. And I wasnt trying to be in any way disrespectful.
Hi Charity! I love to see a 16-year-old who is interested in the things of God, and I have no desire to discourage you in that. Continue reading and studying, and obeying God's word as you best understand it. This is all any of us can do. I appreciate your courage to speak out and the respect you showed in doing it. Remember that all of us still have a lot to learn about God and His plans for us. Keep on living your life for Him!
One point of great importance that I have to address. Notice Charity's words, "In the beginning was the word (Bible) and the word was with God and the word WAS God." She inserted one word into that passage, and that word is in error. This passage from John 1:1 refers not to the Bible, but to Jesus Christ. Now, I'm not correcting her so I can be right. I'm correcting her because this is the most important point in this whole controversy. Many Christians much older and more experienced than Charity also confuse the Bible with Jesus. When we worship the Bible, equating it with God, there is so much that must be overlooked, so we can cover up all the errors and problems. The Bible was never meant to be worshipped. It is only in recent years that that confusion has crept into our theologies. May we somehow turn it back around and focus on our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
ok, would it be fair to say that this blog is expounding on the thought of "It's not a sin to be tempted"... and applying that to the issue of homosexuality?
You are saying that it is not a sin to be tempted with "gay" thoughts. But that it is a sin if one acts upon them?
I really fail to see how anyone can believe gays are just "mixed-up" They just don't want to conform with God's Word. Next we will be saying those who involve themselves with bestiality are just "mixed-up" People will be going to church with their horse and dogs, or whatever they "believe" is OK! Sorry, nice try but no cigar. God's Word is very clear on "perversion." Jesus also warned us about "traditions of men" which is just what I am hearing here.
God's Word is not difficult to understand. But, it is easy to "mix-up". If you care to do so!!
Golden, I strongly disagree with your point. What God's Word does say if one actually takes the time to learn about it, says nothing of the sort. In the New Testament, the words that are mistakenly interpreted as homosexual are not the same as how we would understand it today.
The word of God is the word of God , people can try and change it all they want , key word being people . The bible is crystal clear on this topic , not sure why God's children are trying to change his mind. Deadly game that your playing .
To end this debate I encourage all to read Romans 1 , 18:32 , if you still want to challenge the written word of God , than that is between you and God .
WorldLove (a rather ironic name considering your position) and Barv, read the pericope of the passage you are quoting:
1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Paul was writing upon and condemning what he was seeing. Tell me, do you think what St. Paul was damning was two gay men walking along the streets of Corinth or Rome, holding hands, looking for a nice Roman vase for the foyer of their home? No. What he was seeing and what he was rightly condemning were men walking into the local temple of Cybele, dropping some coins in the collection plate and having sex with one of her priests. What Paul is condemining in these passages has nothing to do with modern homosexual relationships.
It all comes down to the day that we die , if God is all for anal sex between a man and a man , than I guess will just all have to wait and see . I like my chances that he is not a big fan of this act .
Maybe we should ask Sodom and Gomarrah what they think on the issue, I think if they had a second chance they would have changed their perverse sexual behaviors, yes, homosexuality was just one of the perversions that went on in that area but it was the one that broke the proverbial camel's back and caused God to destroy the whole area. In the book of Revelations it states, " for without are dogs....." comparing those that commit sexual perversions as dogs and would not be able to enter into Heaven. But as with any sin, it can be forgiven and you can walk in newness of life if you repent of your sins and turn your life over to Christ. Amen.
True, I did insert that word..in error I see now. I am sorry. And I never meant to insinuate that we should worship the Bible or anything. But the Bible is His words and we are to line up everything we believe according to the Bible. If what we say contradicts what the Bible teaches, we in fact are in error, never the other way around.
And there is a lot of passages in the Bible that we will never truly understand. Passages such as Revelations we probably never be able to comprehend their full meaning until we go to heaven, and He reveals and unlocks all the mysteries to us.
But there are things that are undisputable, always will be wrong. No matter how much time goes by, no matter how much a culture changes. No matter how much the church compromises. Homosexuality is one of them. And if we as the Christians cannot see it, how is the world supposed to?
"For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." (Douay-Rheims Bible,emphasis mine)
Umm, sorry WorldLove, St. John was referring to the Book of Revelation in this passage. The Bible (at least not the New Testament) was not even in existence then, and certainly would not come into existence as a canonized and recognizable body of text until many centuries later.
God is also not a big fan of thousands of MY sins , so of course I have a lot of work to do . I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and TRY and live for Jesus , there are earthly sins that I seem to commit daily - No one can tell me if God and Jesus will forgive me for this , . I wonder if the blood of Jesus covers , a daily repeated sin , or a sinfull lifestyle?
It depends on whether or not it is a sin. Which I don't think the Bible does. It does condemn same-sex acts under certain conditions, but not as many of the people in here seem to think, under a relational context.
And for the record. Sodom and Gomorrah was judged not just because they were perverted with each other but because they lusted after and tried to act on it towards the angels. And its bad news to mess with Gods sacred.
No kidding Malleus , I think it kind of explains about how God feels when his teachings are changed in any of his books , HIS being the key word . Again I believe your dead wrong and I will stick to the teachings of God . No human will change my mind in regards to the word of God .
Malleus , do you remember the simple fishermen, you should hear how you sound . Do you walk on water and have you turned water to wine . Take that big piece of dirt out of your own eye before attacking others , you sound quite beast like .
The point is no matter how prety and nice you wrap the package, homosexuality is always wrong. He made a man and a woman, and called it good. He never went back and was like oh well it could work to between 3 men or 2 women.
And before you think me too obtuse and flippant WorldLove, I do understand your point. However, people need to be made aware of differing views rather than their own. I do not think informing people of issues regarding theology, history, and languages is in any way attacking the kingdom of God.
The whole point of of that was because our saviour could not be made from this earth. That would make him human. That was when the supernatural touched the natural. And so if you are trying to pervert that, you are going into dangerous territory. You are making something sacred into some profane act.
But regardless. It doesnt ever matter what we think, because its never should be about us. It is what God says. That is what our priorities ahould always be, never about who can win the debate. Not about who has the most answers. But if we can be obedient to God and His word.
I'd give you a hundred stars if I could. Wow. This is strong. I have a gay nephew that I love very, very much. He has been treated wrongly by "christians" who are trying to tell him how he should be, and he has been snubbed by family that don't want to be around him because of his ways. My heart breaks for him, and I continue to lift him in prayer...all I can say is God bless you for writing this.
I assume Charity, you are referring to Leviticus 18:22, are you not? If that assumption is correct, look at the original Hebrew word, tow'ebah. It is referencing a cultic violation, not a moral sin (otherwise the word zimah would have been used. This word is mostly used in the context of idolatry. Which would seem to indicate what is being condemned is not a homosexual act performed in the context of a gay relationship, but rather a homosexual act in the context of a idolatrous worship.
This interpretation is also supported I think, by the position of this passage. For example look at Leviticus 18:21and 18:23:
18:21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to make them pass through `the fire' to Molech; neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am Jehovah.
18:23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Child sacrifice to the pagan god Molech. One of the practices of Molech (like that of Cybele) involved sex with both preists of both genders. Beastality was also a part of the worship ( Molech had the body of a man and the head of a bull).
I find it rather difficult to believe that this passage is sandwiiched between these two by accident. All three are discussing and condeming the same thing, the worship of a pagan fire god. I don't believe this is a practice most gay people, and especially gay Christians are engaged in.
So, can you find me on instance where homosexuality is ever morally right?
From the Bible or from extra Biblical sources? From the Bible I would say there is a large body of evidence that indicates that when the Bible refers to eunuchs it is speaking of what we would call a gay man today (the word also meant other things as well)
If you wish to allow extra-Biblical sources I would point tothe story of the Saints Sergius and Bacchus as a counter-example.
These issues get heated, don't they? And we are all Christians! I believe debate is a healthy way to grow, as long as everyone plays fairly, respecting each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, despite disagreements. As I stated in the blog, there will be no final concensus here on this issue. The 2 schools of thought are two deeply separate, at the basic core of Scriptural interpretation. For us who debate the issue, it will not matter in the long run. We are all saved by grace, not by right or wrong opinions. For those who are struggling with this issue, however, wondering why God doesn't love them, this is a most important issue, and for their sake this blog was posted. May we debate with kindness and love, listening to each other's thoughts, and realizing that some of those who struggle are among the hundreds who are reading but not saying a word.
Thank you, Malleus, for your kind words and for your scholarly input.
Not exactly, Redman. My premise here is that homosexuality is not in itself a sin, which is a little different from what you are saying. Thanks for commenting! It's nice to see an NC man here!
Golden, I don't think you had a chance to read the blog yet, did you? I know it was long! Your thoughts are welcome.
World, Shannon, and Charity, even when we disagree, I appreciate the way you stand up for what you believe.
Bill, welcome to MyChurch! I'm sorry this blog greeted you! :) May you find some gentler blogs to enjoy tonight! Glad you're here!
Thank you, Deb, for your kind comment! Your nephew is exactly the reason I wrote this blog! A prayer for him!
Well, I dont know alot about pagan worship. I obviously need to do alot more studying and research. And I wasnt just refering to that one scripture in Levitcus. While that one sticks out as obvious. I was referencing the whole Bible and Gods heart for us. First off the eunuchs that I know of were just the unfortunate males who were captives who got castrated, while they may have been gay, I know that wasn't a God designed thing. Second, I am not sure but isnt Baccus a pagan deity? Either way it wasnt anything God put in motion. It was a human orchestrated action. Not ever Gods will.
Do you believe in your sacred consience that homosexuality is a good thing?
Just sent to me privately. This will put a knot in your stomach. Martin Luther's wish to destroy the Jewish people long before Hitler's time. Cultural attitudes toward groups of people are passed down from generation to generation until they are just accepted without question. Read his own written words:
If you have ever wondered how a civilized Christian society could be so undeniably evil toward another group of people, you only have to read these writings in which Luther demonizes an entire group of people with a black and white, fear-mongering, scripture-filled ideas. Martin Luther laid the seeds of the Holocaust when he wrote his pamphlet "On the Jews and Their Lies" in 1543. 400 years later Adolph Hitler fulfilled his wishes. All because "they are not like us"...
What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. ... I shall give you my sincere advice:
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping...
...that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf...
But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret... In my opinion the problem must be resolved thus: If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country....
And Charity, if it was not a "God designed thing", what do you make of this passage:
19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."
It is shameful to read what Luther said at that time. He was a product of his time, and although much of what he said and wrote was truly inspired by God, he was a sinful human in erring ... very serious error in this regard.
At the beginning of his career in 1543, Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career:
The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew.
But Luther expected them to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against Jews.
It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Kristallnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text.
A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career....We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-Semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.
None of this justifies what follows, but it may help to comprehend what is happening. In 1994, the Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America rejected Luther's anti-Semitic writings.
Good job lara!
And I am sorry but there is no such thing as a good gay christian. I know, you can hate me for saying that. But I am sorry. I may not know a lot, I may not be very smart. I may be young and naive. But when God shows me something is wrong. Nothing people can say will change what God said is true.
So Kathy, one last question, where do you ever find a line to draw? At what point does ones sin ever catchup and condemn you, or is God an impotent object to cause us to feel good about our weaknesses and failures. At what point do we come back into that image and likeness, or is anything and everything accepted, and there really isn't an image and likeness? I know you have the theology to understand the question. Myself, when I stumble in an area of sin I hurt and struggle. I feel the need for repentance, I seek out help. In many ways I understand this struggle all to well, I come close to the edge on this one, and I have many friends who are locked into this struggle. Very few feel good about their lifestyle, and almost all are there, not because of genetic markers, or predisposition, but because of sexual abuse. I find it interesting that you tend to focus on the "positive" formation of sexual orientation and not on the negative formation. Again I will say I do hurt for those in the lifestyle, we must love them, no one else does, but we also must love them towards the kingdom, and not excuse their sin for the "sake of the kingdom".
No Charity, I do not hate you. As a Christian I am called to love all. I just think that your youth has a lot to do with yout ignorance. I suspect that your opinion will change quite a bit as you get older.
Thank you. And your knowledge of pagan religions and history is truly admirable. But I do not want what I say on this topic to be my opinions of what I think is right or wrong. I want to be able to open my mouth and Gods words flow from it. I dont want to grow up and have what I say change unless it is God who does the changing.
Then I would advise you to dwell on God's word yourself. Ask yourself this, would a God of love, which the New Testament teaches that He is, damn people for loving?
I suspect that you will change as you grow out of the influence of your earthly father and more under the influence of your Heavenly Father.
You assume as if I have been brainwashed. I havent been isolated my whole life. I have seen the consequences of sin, including the toll homosexuality takes on a person. On a side-note, do you know that the the average homosexual only lives to be around 40-50 years old? "The fear of the Lord prolongs days, but years of the wicked will be shortened." Makes a person wonder. And God He wants us to live life, and life more abundantly.
And God is a God of love, He gave us free-will. All hell is, is a choice we make. Its the only place where God is not. When we choost to live a life without Him, He lets us live (and die) with that choice. But like He said, He is a God of love so He made a way for us to go to Heaven by that sacrifice of His son.
And I do, not as much as I should perhaps. But I do listen to my dad, but I dont just take his word for it, I also align what he says with the Bible and what my Heavenly Father says. And so far, it has all lined up.
I wasn't assuming you have been brainwashed, however having the father that you appear to have, would indeed have affected your outlook on things.
Tell me Charity, do you know the methodology that was used to attain that oft quoted statistic? The researchers used the obituaries in various gay community publications and claimed to able to use them to predict the life expectancy of gay people. This is a very bad way to attain good statistical modeling since it does not include:people whose obits were not submitted to the publication, people who were not "out", people who were not part of the community, etc.
Lara, I respect your view of Scripture and your personal experience and have no desire to change them. If God has called you out of homosexuality and into marriage and motherhood I rejoice with you in that. To deny oneself for Christ, however, does not necessarily follow your pattern. There are homosexual people who, as difficult as it is in our culture, have managed to deny themselves and live for Christ within their own sexual identities. As you well know, though, much of the homosexual scene is separate from Christ, and this kind of life surely displeases Him. Praise Him for the life He has given you! *hug*
Dennis, I'm not sure I can answer your question. I'm not sure I could draw an exact line for heterosexual people either. But we would likely agree on some things that fall on one side of the line or the other. Any kind of promiscuity, adultery, casual sex - these are sin. The club scene, drinking/drug parties, etc. associated with both gay and heterosexual subcultures are sin. To have attraction for same or opposite sex is a natural part of life and not sin.
You bring up a good question that again I am unable to answer thoroughly, that of homosexuality that follows sexual abuse. Sexual abuse of both boys and girls is a shockingly widespread phenomenon, and it surely causes all kinds of sexual confusion, some of which involves homosexual behavior, but more often seems to lead to general promiscuity. It would be inaccurate though to claim that a majority of homosexual people were sexually abused. It's a tough question, and a worthy one to discuss here, but I don't know the answers.
My positive focus is intentional. Because what I'm trying to speak to here is the church, which typically pegs all gay people as "living a sinful lifestyle." It was intentional to show the special giftedness of these people, and what they have to offer to society. It is my hypothesis that if accepted and loved by the church, the negative "lifestyle" many fall into would lessen eventually to a similar percentage as what we see in the heterosexual world. I believe the drugs, drinking, and promiscuity in which many live is due in large part to being labeled as sub-human and marginalized from the rest of society, forced to live in a sort of "underground." Many homosexual people, however, are living Christian lives that are quite similar to their heterosexual counterparts. Some are even adopting children (often unwanted ones) and living as soccer dads or carpool moms, and worshiping God together.
I am very much a believer in the concept of sin, repentance, and the need for God's forgiveness and restoration, and I believe the homosexual probably has a much more difficult struggle than the heterosexual to live a life set apart for Christ. The sin they must overcome, however, is not a sin of orientation. It is the same sin that their heterosexual counterparts must also overcome. But they must do it without role models and without the direction or blessing of the church or often even their families.
Thank you, Dennis, for such thought-provoking questions and comments. A prayer and a hug for you tonight.
Charity, I'm sure your dad must be proud of you, a 16-year-old daughter who loves him and who loves the Heavenly Father. We are all works in progress and should remain maleable in God's hands to be shaped however He chooses to shape us, but you are on the right track. Pray, study, and keep yourself pure for His service!
Malleus, thank you for sharing your vast knowledge of history!
Thank you Cathy for adding such a wonderful post. I would agree with you in your assessment. Many times gay kids have their family, friends and faith turn against them. And when these same youth turn to drugs, alcohol, and meaningless sex for solace, these same people point at this as the "consequence" of homosexuality, rather than looking to themselves as the causal agent to the behavior.
Sexual sin is not trivial. Not something to be discounted. It is serious. Jesus said that even lust for someone other than your husband or wife is a sin. It is dangerous for believers to ignore or explain away God's sexual standards.
Yes, Having a godly father who has been there for me my whole life is a precious gift that very few people have these days. Having had a Dad who not only is physically there, but also on a daily basis teaches me the Bible and is a living example of a righteous patriarch has influenced a great deal on how I think. But it was never a force-fed situation. He is trying to teach me also how to think for myself, and study to see if the things he says are true, according to Gods word.
Alright, I stand corrected on using that statistic when I didn't know how they obtained it. Thats never a good idea lol.
But I said my piece, and I guess we will all find out in heaven.
God bless you all.
And may the Truth set us all free.
-charity
Good point, Malleus. During the course of researching this blog, I read a poignant testimonial that vividly illustrates what you are saying. (I wish I could remember where I read it.) It was the story of a young gay man who was estranged from his parents and upon being diagnosed with AIDS sent his parents a letter requesting reconciliation. Days later when an envelope arrived in response, he opened it to find his own birth certificate, torn into shreds. I too have heard many such stories. This is not theology. This is reality.
Hi Steve. I totally agree that God's standards are not to be trivialized. Thank you for your input.
Charity, blessings to you, my friend!
Shannon, I for one do not see you as a hater! :)
Grant, thank you for your link. I mentioned Exodus in the blog, and we have discussed it here in the comments. I am not an advocate of the so-called "ex-gay" ministries, because they are based on the ideology that gay people are defective and need to be (and can be) "fixed", which is the erroneous view I am addressing. Yes, these "ministries" offer numerous testimonials of "cures," which are written in true sincerity, at a moment in each writer's life when they were sincerely desiring and believing in "deliverance." The problem, however, is that when we hear from these writers 5-10 years later, they have a different story. The "cure' did not work. Even if they have chosen to marry, have children, and denounce all appearance of homosexuality, they will tell us that their orientation is still alive and well. As Christians we want to say, "Yay, a victory for God." Maybe. Maybe not. I don't claim to personally know the many millions of homosexual people in the U.S. or even more across the world, so I don't doubt there may be an exception or two to my observations, but if anyone has personal testimony of someone who has been "cured" for 10 years, I would personally like to hear from that person, really. Not to prove any point, but to learn from him. These ministries have changed over the last years. Most of them have actually stopped talking about "curing" the sexuality and have stopped such ridiculous practices as looking at pictures of naked women, and hurting themselves when they think of men, and practicing doing masculine activities like football; and talk now instead about suppressing their natural sexuality and choosing behaviors that are acceptable to the rest of society. These "ministries" in my opinion are based on misguided conceptions of the Christian church. They are further confusing those who are seeking direction, and interestingly, many homosexual couples are finding their life partners in these ministries, because they are both Christain people seeking to find God's path for their lives. We need a new model, one that teaches homosexuals to live as Christians within their own orientations.
Voice, of course you are correct, and I am glad that we are not the ultimate line draw-ers! We all have and need our own personal parameters, based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we realize all our perceptions are imperfect, as we are all children of God, yet we are not in perfect agreement on how to draw our boxes. May we not be quick to judge a box we have never lived in.
I think one of the books that may be of benefit to many in here is "Prayers for Bobby". It involves a gay youth raised in a fundamentalists family who takes his own life. It is a very haunting volume due to the fact that much of the book is in Bobby's own words (for the four years preceding his death, Bobby kept a journal), the rest of his book is a journal that his mother started to keep after his suicide. While the story is tragic, I think that it does end on a redemptive note. I think that many of the people here, who are viewing this issue in some type of moral vacuum could benefit from this slim volume.
I have to admit. As you said Kathy. No, I did not read the whole blog. The mere thought of justifying such a plain and simple understanding would be waisting time. Those who would say they know the Bible so well that they understand God's Word better than God does, will have a large surprise when it comes time to meet him. Many Christians like to think we must use love and understanding or we are not true Christians. As God loves all his children. He does not like what we do at all times. If you turn your back on God. Don't think he won't return the favor. Though he is always there to hear you when you let him know you are wrong.
Jesus said in Matthew 10:15 Verily (truly) I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgement, than that city. Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 11:24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement, than for thee."
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; (see Gen 19:15-25 obvious reference) they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 17:29 But the same day Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
For those who wish to remain in the land of Sodom (spiritually speaking) there is much to pay. We must not hate those who do wrong. But we cannot encourage them. As what we say and do may certainly cost them their very souls. If they wish that. Let it be their choice. Tough love is the hardest we must learn to use. But, it's still love!!
Jesus said in Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me."
Our Lord did not come here to change the "Law" A student must learn to separate Law, statutes, and ordinance. Even our Lord did not live only in the New Testament. Those who do not understand we have no Bible without both are kidding themselves.
Jesus came as the Lamb of God (part of the Trinity) When all is said and done. God is boss. It is the Father that will decide who should continue in life and not be blotted out. Jesus is our intermediary. But don't expect him to defend perverse actions.
This is not aimed at you Kathy. You are a nice lady who wishes to be a good Christian. What I feel, I must explain is. We have a good, great God. But he will not except all in the world to come. Some fools who think they know better about God's Word will attempt to twist what I have said. Many do so to all of God's Word. That is the problem we have today. Satan is a good twister. But we must be wiser than the Serpent!! God bless!!
Indeed humans do make mistakes, but the Word of God stands. There are no mistakes in the Word of God!!! Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. I guess my biggest problem is the fact that this is all based on the assumption, by "scientists," that people are born gay. The same "scientists," that say that the fetus that is inside of a mother's womb is not a human, and therefore abortion is ok!! The same "scientists," that say that the world was put in motion by the "Big Bang," as I say basing our beliefs on the "assumptions," of scientists is risky business. The Word of God says in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be notdeceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 2 Timothy 3:12-14 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
As a church we have allowed the "worldview" to slowly redefine the way that we believe when we know that no matter what the sin, Christ stood firm, in Love, but still never wavered...
Sin cannot enter into the presence of a Holy GOD!!!!
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Golden, your quotes indicate either one of two things: (1) Homosexuality was running rampant in Jerusalem and Capernaum at that time (which the historical record does not indicate) or (2) the sin of Sodom was that of pride and cold-heartedness. Which do you think, based on the teachings of Christ, is the more logical scenario?
Also, if you wish to critique a person's argument, it is generally a good idea to read their points. Otherwise although professing to be wise, you become a fool.
Where to start? Yes, it's me again. Hope you had a good Forth of July celebration.
You've given us both barrels, so to speak (your whole argument for the Christian virtue/blessing of sodomy. It's interesting how the use of the biblical descriptor shapes the discussion in a particular way. It's supposed to do that because the Bible intends to shape and limit our thinking, to conform our thoughts to God's Word). This post has generated a lot of heat and smoke, but not much biblical light (is there any other kind of light?).
I would have a lot more respect for you if you were more honest about yourself being a liberal of the nth degree, but you portray yourself as a Christian conservative, which is deceitful. Of course, you're not as "bad" as some liberals, but all water in the liberal gutters flows down the same hill. All of the arguments that you are trying to promote were developed decades ago in a few liberal seminaries, and all of them have been met and defeated on biblical grounds by faithful Christians. There is a mountain of reading that can be done on both sides of this issue, and interestingly, none of it has found any middle ground -- likely because there isn't any. The whole drive for middle ground is one of the best methodologies that liberalism has because the establishment of middle ground always shifts everything to the left. The middle ground that is sought is always to the left of the current center.
As you know, I don't know you, nor you me. I imagine that you are as kind, sensitive, intelligent and compassionate a person in your private life as you appear to be here. Your demonstrative consideration for everyone of any belief, tradition, creed, color, sex, nationality or sexual orientation oozes with the pride of staking a superior position, no doubt you actually believe that it is. Your kindness and consideration put us all to shame, which is likely the objective. Shame is a very powerful shaper of social mores, and no one knows this better than the sodomites who have been on the receiving end of social shame since before the beginning began. It is important to see this because the sodomites are now using the politics of shame to carve out their place at the proverbial table. How does this work? Those who hold the traditional biblical position are shamed for their narrow mindedness, bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, etc. Where it used to be that homosexuality was not okay, now thinking that it's not okay is not okay. Note the reversal. It's an old ploy, except that Kathy is bringing it to new people -- and doing it in the "name of jesus." (That's not a typo because the jesus that is promoted by such antics is not the Jesus Christ of Scripture, but is a jesus of the imagination.)
Kathy, does your denomination know what you are purporting here? What is your denomination's official position on homosexuality? How about the church you serve? Have you preached this stuff from the pulpit? I'll resist the temptation to answer that myself, and wait for your reply.
You have asserted that "sexual orientation is not a sin." In fact, those words are not in the Bible, but neither is the word "Trinity." You said, "Sexual orientation is a misnomer. A person’s sexual orientation is not about sex. It is about identity." Again, you are correct. However, identity is a primary theme of Scripture, Old Testament and New. The Bible does not speak of sexual orientation because it is a false category introduced to skew the discussion in a particular direction.
Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). I'm not here accusing you of being such a liar as this, but only pointing out that Jesus knew that not everyone who thought him or herself to be faithful was in fact faithful. He repeated this sentiment in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Jesus was talking to church leaders. You are a church leader, aren't you?
The thing that makes me think that He may have been talking to you is your comment, "But orientation is not a need for repentance." However, since Christ came to proclaim and to clarify the identity of humanity as the children of God, and therefore subject to the will of the Father, the wrong "orientation" or identity is in fact THE primary need for repentance. This is not about sodomites alone, but is about every human being. Yet, you want to make an exception for sodomites, to allow them to bring their favorite sin into the Kingdom.
You also said, "These issues get heated, don't they? And we are all Christians! I believe debate is a healthy way to grow, as long as everyone plays fairly, respecting each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, despite disagreements." You have no knowledge, right, authority or jurisdiction to suggests that "we are all Christians." In fact, who is and who isn't a Christian is another primary theme of the Bible, and is strictly defended in every church as the prerogative of the elected elders alone to make such a judgment. You are well outside of any authority, not to mention responsibility, as a church officer to say any such thing. How can you possibly know! Paul challenged his own church, not by saying that all people were actually Jews because of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but by saying that "NOT all (Jews) are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (Romans 9:7). Or as the contemporary version goes, Sleeping in a garage will not make anyone into a car. What these words of yours mean is that you will consider me (us) to be Christian if I (we) will consider you to be Christian. There is an insinuation here that you and your argument for homosexuality must be accepted on the grounds of having a fair debate. It's subtle, slick and sly -- crafty, if you will. But false, that is to say, not biblical. If you will look closely, you will see that the gospel (reception of which in consultation with one's own local church elders determines one's status as a Christian) is not a matter of debate, but of proclamation.
You also said, "Herein is the crux of what divides us as Christians on this issue: Do homosexuals choose to be homosexual? Traditionalist Christians adamantly say yes, and if this were true, I would agree. Homosexuality would be a sin. If it is true, however, that homosexuality is genetically determined, much like eye color, left-handedness, tongue rolling, etc. (which is becoming more and more scientifically probable), then we are essentially saying that it is a sin for these people to be born. A homosexual person can no more deny his same-sex attractions than can a heterosexual deny his."
Allow me to respond to this crux that divides us. First, you are correct that it divides us. And second, you are correct that it is a crux (a cross). To better see the argument, let's make it more generic and ask your question thusly, Do sinners choose to sin? Any sinners, any sin. The answer is always yes. All sinners always sin by their own free choice, our own free will. We like to sin, we prefer it. As you know, we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners. Ending the behavior does not change our sin nature. If it did, we wouldn't need Christ's propitiation on the cross. In addition, all people, not just homosexuals, are born sinners, before we have "done" anything (Romans 9:11-13).
Your argument (it's not actually yours, but has been forged by many liberals before you) is seriously flawed. The genetic argument is handy because its new and most people don't understand how genetics work -- not even the scientists who are most involved with it! As with most new scientific discoveries (phrenology, for example), it is being presented to "prove" various things that are subject to political manipulation (cultural concerns). And so genetic science has been garnered by some ideologists as a foundation for sexual motivation. Granted that at the genetic level there is a motivation for sex -- reproduction. Like an oak tree in the fall, the genetic programming provides that seeds are scattered promiscuously (in an indiscriminate manner, far and wide). It is not becoming more scientifically probable that genetics accounts for specific behaviors like left-handedness or tongue rolling. My son is left handed, not because he was born that way, but because his right eye was damaged at birth. My wife was left handed all her life until her left hand would not cooperate with her, and now she is right handed. Whereas, it does account for one's biology: sex (male/female), eye color, hair color, height (not weight, that's behavioral), etc. Applying genetic science to explain homosexuality provides an example of a categorical error, confusing nature with nurture.
The behavior side of the nature/nurture paradigm falls to the nurture side of the argument (culture, social mores, etc.). All sexual expression is always a behavioral choice (rape and child molestation excepted -- but even then it is someone's choice). It is at the cultural level that God has intervened into the natural process (human history) with His supernatural Spirit to save humanity from the consequences of our natural (genetic) behaviors. Ancient Israel was part of God's cultural plan, which set Israel apart culturally, religiously and nationally from the other nations for the purpose of cultural, family and personal righteousness, the establishment of human behaviors that would "check" our natural (genetic) human desires, desires that always end in cultural destruction because they originate from sin (from Adam's sin and our own human free will). I know you don't like the word "righteousness" but it's God's word not mine, and it's important to Him.
So, are we to deny our (sexually oriented) attractions? Let's make the question more generic so that we can better understand it: Are we as Christians to deny (mortify, practice self-denial of one's body and appetites) our natural desires? It is not for you or me to answer this question, but for Scripture to answer it. The biblical answers are: Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." And, Colossians 3:5, "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." Note that Paul identifies sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desires and covetousness" as being expressions of idolatry. Therefore, wherever Scripture speaks of idolatry it similarly speaks of these things -- the very things that you said cannot be changed. Indeed, you are, in fact, arguing against the hope of the Bible for both regeneration and repentance, the hope that God will indeed change our hearts and minds, our desires and passions, to conform to His will, not our own. To have missed this is pretty serious.
But you disarm your opponents by doing it in such a kind and considerate way. Your manner is absolutely (unbelievably) tactful regarding the beliefs of others, perhaps tactical would be a better word choice. Why do you do this? Because you want others to consider your beliefs as having merit or legitimacy. As you know, like begets like. You are, as you admit, so eminently positive in your approach. ("My positive focus is intentional. Because what I'm trying to speak to here is the church") I'm reminded of the historical contribution of "Positive Christiainity" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) to the church. Have you read "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg? If not, you (all of you) should.
Why did the serpent deceive Eve rather than Adam? Why did he not go directly to the one in authority (Adam)? The serpent knew that his argument would not disuade Adam if it were presented directly to him in clear language. The serpent was more subtle (intelligent) than any other creature on earth. So, he deceived Eve, convinced her that she (and perhaps Adam) had misunderstood what God had said about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He questioned their "interpretation" of God's Word. Not surprizingly, when the argument was made by the person that Adam loved -- Eve, Adam's love, regard and respect for Eve made the argument more palatable to him. Then when Eve identified with the argument (Genesis 3:6), Adam could not deny the serpent's argument without denying Eve (her thoughts, desires and joys). Eve had made the serpent's argument against trusting God her own. Adam's error was putting his love for his wife above the Word of God. That's a very difficult lesson to learn, but note how often "love" for sodomites trumps God's plain Word on the matter.
My prayer here is that God will open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the dumb, that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves -- and that we will stop falling prey to Satan's stupid tricks. Kathy is simply wrong on this issue. She's been wrong before, and I trust that God will work her through this very important issue.
Malleus, I am not familiar with that book, but any books that tell real people's stories can be beneficial to us. There are so many out there! Thanks!
Golden, having not read my blog, it is evident that you do not understand the position expressed here. I respect your passion, but all your points have been addessed in the blog, so I won't repeat myself here.
Nathan, likewise, it is not in my interest to argue Scripture with you, but thank you for being respectful in presenting your point of view here. Abortion, by the way, although I am by no means advocating that here, is another of those hot issues that could be be justified on both sides with Scripture. It's just that we have been trained to go to one verse for that discussion. Scripture is not the end of all discussions. I invite you to read the blog linked above in the What Does the Bible Say? section if you'd like to better understand my view of Scripture interpretation. Thanks for posting.
Charity, I deleted your post of your dad's blog, as it was far to lengthy to post as a comment on someone else's blog. I invite you to post a link here, so those who want to read it can go there. Thanks!
Oh, Mr. PARoss, your post also is quite lengthy as a comment, not to mention accusatory and filled with inaccurate assessments about a blogger you obviously know nothing about. I will likely delete further comments from you if they have similar length and tone, and definitely if they attack any of my readers as this one has attacked me. Your comments so misrepresent who I am and what this blog is about that I will not humor you with any responses, but since you worked so hard at your response, I will leave this one so you can be heard. Please consider posting your own blog if you need to say more, as this blog will not tolerate disrespect or name-calling. A prayer for you, Mr. PARoss.
Christian brothers and sisters, the positive that comes from a discussion like this is that it affords us an opportunity to hear various Christian viewpoints, which helps us to better understand our own. All of us are works in progress and have lots of room to grow. Hearing other viewpoints will either alter our own, or strengthen it, neither of which is to be feared. The negative, however, is that if we are not careful, we begin to choose teams and and pit ourselves one against the other. Please don't use my blog for disunity. If it causes you strife, walk away from it, and leave it for those for whom it was written. Love to you all. We are one team.
Again treading on dangerous ground when you say, Scripture is not the end of all discussions.
Scripture is THE final authority, I take no merit in what you ro anyone else says when it does not line up with the Word of God. I can take you to several scriptures not just one that speaks against abortion. I pray that God opens your eyes to the truth before you lead anyone to an eternal destiny apart from Christ.
Satan has deceived you by planting the lie that the Holy Word of God is not THE Final Authority, be careful because soon enough you will not believe in sin, because after awhile you will justify away every sin!!
Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Not to take the place of Kathy, but a lot of what debate on this particular thread boils down to is how Scripture is translated and interperted. The word homosexual nor the word sodomite appear in the Bible.
Do you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be decieved. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
God will judge eventually.....He created Adam and Eve... not Adam and Steve! Why? to procastrinete and meake PEOPLE, not to enjoy sexual extravagance. I am a disabled man unable to function sexually but I still have the desire to do so (With my FEMALE wife) I find it even hard to think about masturbation never mind the opposite sex. Charity before me has got the answers!! I often cry myself to sleep thinking about just having a "NORMAL" sexual relationship....so dont give me your " Polititically Correct" attitude to sex and the city.......TRY BEING DISABLED before you START BEING Self riGHTEouSNess!
Reading this blog makes me realize how some people can justify anything. I have a very good friend and also a close family member who are gay. I love them dearly and do not consider their sins any more "horrible and disgusting" than any other sin. I do know what the Bible says and I know that God did not create people to be homosexuals. We have all sinned and I do not consider myself to be "better" or "more holy" than anyone. I do pray for my family member and friend every day. This life is a spiritual battle. The devil is fighting for our souls and will try any way he can to win. I have personal battles of my own. Homosexuality is a temptation for some... and just like the temptations I may face; we have to rely on God to help us not to give in to these temptations.
Stuart, I empathize with you condition. However your statement:
God will judge eventually.....He created Adam and Eve... not Adam and Steve! Why? to procastrinete (I assume you mean procreate) and meake PEOPLE, not to enjoy sexual extravagance. I am a disabled man unable to function sexually but I still have the desire to do so.
No offense, but if you wish to maintain the position that sex is soley for procreation, then you would have to acknowledge your own condition as being an offense against God. Your statement concerning desire can also be seen as being an argument for gay relationships, since their relationships are also predicated upon the notion of desire and love, not upon procreation.
After re-reading all of the various comments and thinking on this subject pretty much all day. There is one question I have. How is it a person could say God is holy, profess to be a Christian, yet be a homosexual? To me they are like oil and water. Being a homosexual is almost like saying you are either smarter or more loving than God. You are saying you have a better plan than our Creator Himself. God made one man, one woman and called it good. He did all the creating He meant to in those 7 days. Anything that was put in motion after that period of time was human based. Which means, it is in error. Ok, I can now see your point Malleus. In the original language their may have never been the term homosexual. Having said that, God exalted only this one system. a marriage between a man and a woman. That is Gods plan, anything else in contradiction to that is not from Him. It needs to be surrendered to Him. Its just like anything else that we struggle with that is not His will. We need to confess it as sin, reject it, repent from it, turn and embrace our Holy, loving and wonderful God.
34 Righteousness lifts up a nation, but sin is a disgrace in any society. Proverbs 14:344 For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. Ezek 18:4 (NLT)Kathy I took the time to read the whole blog including “God did not write the bible, Homosexual Animals , I even read about Soulforce and Helen Barrett Montgomery I choose to take the position of being factual about the other side of this coin. There is an agenda on the part of the homosexuals and I would like the opportunity to point out a few of those things.First let me address love. Biblically, love is defined not as a license to legitimatize sinful behavior of any kind, but love helps us to see that there is a better way.Obviously, we must be as concerned about our own sins as we are about the sins of the Homosexual community. We must be concerned enough to speak out about any action, heterosexual or homosexual, that violates God’s intend plan for marriage and family. No matter how we oppose the homosexual agenda, we are first of all called to be Christians who have the privilege of representing Christ to all. to somehow suggest that Homosexuality is O.K. with God is to have the spirit of error operating in the individual. 4 You are of God, my little children, and you have overcome them because he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world, so their talk is the world's talk, and the world gives ear to them. 6 We are of God: he who has the knowledge of God gives ear to us; he who is not of God does not give ear to us. By this we may see which is the true spirit, and which is the spirit of error. 1 John 4:4-6 (BBE)To the facts: A Lesbian attorney in Canada correctly said “ the real battle is between gay rights and religious freedom; she also said freedom of religion will have to give way to the HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA. Coming to America sooner than you think. The fact is approximately 2 percent of the population of America and more or less marginalize all opposition. In the 1960’s the invention of the Pill started a general loosening of societal mores and insistence on” rights” Sexual self-expression which traditionally had been regarded as a privilege, became perceived as a right. with the onslaught of pornography, the Playboy mentality steadily shifted center of Gravity from marital faithfulness to personal enjoyment. With divorce available for the sake of convenience, the word family began to take on new meaning. Gradually, The notion of a family with a father, mother and children, all living under the same roof, became something of a relic of a bygone era. Meanwhile, Tolerance emerged as the one indisputable national value. This word use to mean that people should be free to believe whatever they wished, and it was improper to judge their conduct. Tolerance now demands affirmation of virtually all behavior, no matter how immoral, unnatural, and bizarre. With these streams flowing into our natural cultural much of America was ready for same sex marriages. The strategy worked for more than 30 years, gay activists have intentionally sought to make their life style and behaviors “normal” in the eyes of mainstream America. In 1973, activists persuaded the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to remove homosexuality from its list of psychiatric illness and reclassify it as normal behavior. This change was made not because of scientific data but because radicals planned a systematic effort to disrupt the annual meetings of the APA. Three years earlier, activists grabbed the microphone in an APA meeting and said, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you… we’re rejecting you all as our owners.” One prominent psychiatrist said it was the first time in psychiatric history that a scientific society ignored scientific evidence and yielded to the demands o a militant group. Through this action, the radical gay movement let it be known that its agenda would proceed regardless of research, science, and dialogue; and that intimidation would be one of its weapons to achieve its aims, no matter what.Consider the game plan put forward by two gay activists, Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, and publicized in a 1987 article titled “The Overhauling of Straight America” an a 1989 book titled After the Ball. Both are quoted and referred to extensively in the excellent book The Homosexual Agenda, by Alan Sears and Craig Osten. Here are some of the details of how the gay establishment plans to change American attitudes about homosexuality.First, they say, homosexuals should talk about gays and gayness as loudly and as often as possible. They write, “ …almost all behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of it at close quarters and among your acquaintances. Certainly we would agree that the media have cooperated with this strategy. Sitcoms, movies and documentaries are calculated to make the practice of homosexuality seem normal. With this barrage of media hype, we either are forced to accept their behavior as normal, or we become sick of it and withdraw from the cultural debate.Thus the radical homosexual with their savvy cooperation with a willing media keep pushing on society as much as it will tolerate. Yes, history has shown that it is true that “almost all behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of its close quarters and among your acquaintances.” Second, the homosexual authors write, “Portray gays as victims, not aggressive challengers” – a strategy designed to play to most Americans’ sympathy for the underdog. So the homosexual community has intentionally portray themselves as a victimized class in need of special protection. To continue in their words, “A media campaign that casts gays as society’s victims and encourages straights to be their protectors must make it easier for those who respond to assert that explain their new perspectives. The media have obliged; in fact, it is not too strong to say that promoting the gay agenda is high on the list of priorities for those who bring us our news and entertainment. When a young homosexual, Mathew Shepard, was murdered, many gays and members of the media turned his brutal killing into an opportunity to blame his death on all those who oppose the gay agenda. James Dobson of Focus on the Family bore much of the wrath of the targeted media campaign. Deborah Mathis, writing in the Orlando Sentinel, commented: The opponents of homosexual behavior prefer not to acknowledge their own bigotry. Hence, the disguise – or self-delusion – of noble purpose…Did the anti- homosexual crowd help kill Mathew Shepard? Not per se. But it poisoned the air, which poisoned the minds which connived to attract, deceive, and destroy a young man who deserved, in the least, to be left alone. They share in the complicity. She went on to liken conservative Christians to Adolf Hitler.So there you have it A homosexual was murdered, and it is the fault of all t hose who are not in step with the homosexual agenda. No matter that Mathew Shepard was killed by irreligious drunken thugs. The media gave the gay community wide and continuous support, propagating the myth that Christians who speck out against the homosexual agenda was to blame for the murder. Third, they say that it is important to make the gays look good and their victims look bad. This is done by convincing the public that many famous people in history were gay, and, of course, that gay must consistently be portrayed favorably in the media. The authors write, “We intend to make the anti-gays look so nasty that average Americans will want to disassociate themselves from such types.” Perhaps I should pause here to say that sadly, some “antigays” do look nasty. The media frequently gives attention to one man, who on occasion attends gay events carrying his sign, “God hates Fags.” Whatever his motivation, he has given gays the opportunity to paint those of us who oppose their agenda with the same brush. Conservative churches are often portrayed as hateful, homophobic, and nasty. The caricature works.Fourth a plan has become wildly successful: To solicit money from corporations to promote homosexuality an neutralize all opposition to the life style.(side note I am not surprised that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two of their biggest supporters are in trouble financially I call it judgement )The strategy has worked by clever and preserving use of propaganda, even heaven can be represented as hell to the people, and conversely, the most wretched life as paradise.Virtually everything they have wanted has come to pass even in the Public Schools homosexuality is promoted. In 2001 the National Education Association adopted a resolution to promote the full scale indoctrination of children to accept and affirm homosexual behavior. (This group does not want prayer in school but my son have a homosexual club in their high school.) when word leaked out of their intentions,they tabled the motion which means they will quietly implement it without official member approval. No dissenting views are allowed; parents are silenced and children are encouraged to experiment with various forms of sexual behavior.Yes that do have an agenda Kathy and if my son was that way I would still love him enough to tell him the truth about same sex marriage, homosexuality or any other sin that men intend to spit in God’s face. I think we forget that God spits back the lukewarm Christian that will not choose a side you can’t stay middle of the roadI know my response was long but you said a lot in your blog so I tried to answer as best I could. Again we must never speak of homosexuality as if it is the one sin worthy of eternal flames. Yes, the bible does condemn homosexuality, but it also condemns a host of other sins that are rampant in our best churches. It is not enough to condemn the darkness, if we fail to shine the light of hope on our disintegrating culture. We are living in a day of deception Jesus said this would happen in Matt 24. I know this issue is only going intensify but if we remain silent we will be silenced and will know that we were deceived by mis-educated educators.
The recent interaction on this blog, including several hate-filled comments that I have deleted, are a perfect illustration of how this platitude plays itself out. We have illustrated a sad microcosm of the church. The only part of the slogan that's evident is "Hate." Why would a gay person want to hear any Gospel from such as us?
Stuart, I don't think you got to read the blog yet, but glad you stopped by. A prayer for you tonight.
Cathy and Sista, welcome to MyChurch, and thank you for reading my blog. You will find most of this site much more peaceful than this! There are hundreds of wonderful people here!
Pastor Elam, thank you for so thoroughly reading my blog, and for respectfully offering your own well thought out response. I appreciate your passion and respect you as a brother in Christ.
There are several questions I have by following this thread...Kathy, please allow me to ask one...my question has to do with interpretation...as has been pointed out above, the words "homosexual" and "sodomite" are never used in the scripture...so we have chosen through our teachings and traditions to interpret scripture in a way that includes those terms...without any other guidance, that is an acceptable method of interpretation....not the only interpretation, but one that meets acceptable guidelines...so, here is my question:
Why do we let women speak in church?
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Don't get me wrong, this is right in the same vein as Kathy has here...she uses the example of the piano, but there is no place in scripture that says "don't play the piano". The scripture is very clear about women speaking in church, though. So help me understand how we have changed our interpretation of this scripture over the years.
This passage, much like many of the passages concerning homosexuality, is predicated upon context.
Look at the passages which surround this one verse. They all deal with prophecy and speaking in tongues, and "knowing things which are hidden".
What Paul was trying to avoid (at least I think, based upon my knowledge of history and religion) was a development of a "mystery cult", such as the cult of Isis (which was very popular at the time). These type of worship were dominated by women who had ecstatic visions and prophesied under the influence of Isis. Also, the ankh (which looks at awful lot like the cross) was a big part of these worship services, a think he was trying to avoid having the early church fall into syncretism with these groups.
MD, thanks for the historical context...now my next thought....
...some churches still follow this practice...I went to one for a while...and they taught that a woman was in sin if she spoke out without first getting it approved by one in leadership...specifically because of this verse.
So, one would have to say, given the context, that that church is not fulfilling the scripture. While it may be trying to follow the letter of the scripture, it certainly has missed the intent.
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5) NKJV
"God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7:11) NKJV
"The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." (Psalm 11:5) NKJV
From the New Testament in case as it appears you have a problem with the authority of the Old Testament
"Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4) NKJV
Showing true GODLY love to sinners (homosexuals included) is to warn them to repent of their sin.
'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." (Leviticus 19:17) It appears to me Kathy that you are the one who lacks love for sinners (homosexuals included) in that you are loving them straight into hell!
I think your thought process is logical Voice. I think that the key thing with Biblical interpretation is looking at what the surrounding passages have to say and see if the verse is part of that. Bibilical writers were not in the habit of sticking in random passages in the Bible just for the heck of it. If their is one thing the Holy Spirit knows how to do it is to flow.
I see many here who have read the intire blog and agree with me. But this is in place with God's Word. there are some here who would twist any of Gos's word to make the truth sound foolish. There has been for many centuries. This is no longer worth discusion. Those who believe God's Word know the truth. Those who fight against it. I hope God takes it easy on you. It is not mine to judge.
Ten10, Your hate for sin has clouded your true vision. I hate what we are speeking of also. But we can not say who is going to hell or not. Those who repent certainly have all the same chance for grace as we do. But, I will say. It does one no good to help evil continue!!
Golden, healthy debate and scholarship are also what has driven the Church for centuries. Had we not learned to engage and excel at both then we would have fallen long ago (to the pagans, Islam, etc.) Just because you disagree with someone does not make them evil (which is what your implication is).
To help us think about the question regarding women speaking in church -- taking church leadership, I've posted this blog - http://www.mychurch.org/blog/222117/Not-Women and am interested in hearing your responses.
PARoss, tha (your post) is an extension of what I have proposed here. Based on your discussion, you would be in agreement with keeping women from speaking in church. Is that correct?
It is not for me to keep women from speaking in church. It is a family issue and I defer to family jurisdiction.
I'm only saying that Paul makes it encumbent upon women to demonstrate love for Christ and honor to their husbands by respecting the patterns for church life set out in Scripture. To do otherwise constitutes an insult to God, to Christ and to their own husbands because they demonstrate their personal unwillingness to be faithful in the particular position or context in which God has put them.
But neither should women feel like they are being singled out for special treatment or especially put down. Actually God's requirements for faithful husbands is more demanding than that for wives. Why? Because God has made the husband the head, and leadership is always more demanding.
Leadership and followership need each other. Neither can exist without the other. They are not the same, not equal, nor unequal -- but different. The differences are important.
I received a private message this morning with the sender's very personal testimony and permission to share it. It is lengthy to add as a comment, but I believe it will add a real face to this issue:
Coming to Peace with My Own Homosexuality
Summer 2008 My View of Sex in Adolescence
As a teenager, I was becoming a gay man in the midst of a thoroughly heterosexual, Evangelical community. Gay love was so far off my people’s radar that I could neither admit to myself that I was attracted to men nor talk about it with others. It was not something we spoke of on a personal level. Gay folks had no part in my world, and I could not even consider the possibility that I might be gay. I was rapidly developing my own homosexual fantasy life, but acceptance was not an option. It was expected by myself and others that I would follow the prescribed pattern: date responsibly, refrain from overt sexuality, marry a Christian woman, enjoy the vibrancy and sanctity of the heterosexual marriage bed, and pass these same values on to my children.
Actual sexual exploration was taboo during my teens, and I received little assurance from parents and pastors as to whether sexual fantasies could be healthy or helpful. I floundered about with my daily thoughts and desires—sure I was degrading myself—always too afraid to admit to myself or anyone else that I liked men. I prayed; I went forward at altar calls; I talked with people about my struggles with “sexual sin.” I felt like sexuality was eating me alive.
Periodically my curiosity about sex would flare out in careless and unhealthy sexual adventures, followed by guilt and remorse and a greater motivation to respond more perfectly the next time—to control my sexuality more completely. Over a decade, I experimented with various means of repressing my sex drive, some more successful than others. I was not learning to appreciate and channel my sexuality—and certainly not my homosexuality, which was always repressed. In my view, it was not okay that I was sexual, and any sexuality I was involved in ended up being clandestine and quickly repented of.
Coming Out
Eventually, as I entered adulthood, I slowly admitted to myself and others that I am same-sex attracted—beginning at age nineteen, my first year in college. I still fought to repress and change my orientation for six years after, but at least I was honest about my attraction to men. And as long as I was trying to change or push myself back into the heterosexual mold, I was approved of. I was still being good, toeing the line.
I made my way through college, at one point transferring back home to distance myself from access to the New York City gay scene. I dated a good friend—a woman—for two and a half years, believing, with her encouragement, that we could make heterosexuality work for me. And it worked on some level, but my homosexual desires never changed. If the relationship had not ended for other reasons, it would have ended when I realized that I no longer wanted to be heterosexual. I am so thankful that we did not marry or have children together.
Increasingly during my early twenties, life revolved around “recovery” work, groups, meetings and counseling. I was convinced that I was a sex addict, and in that self-diagnosis, I found motivation to apply myself to more and more stringent discipline. Eventually, at age 24, I found myself in a sexual recovery or “purity” meeting every night of the week, with no sexual outlets whatsoever allowed. It was in that state that I wrote in Stumbling toward a Genuine Conversation on Homosexuality (Michael King, ed., Dreamseeker Books, 2007) of how I was being “healed” from my “diseased” homosexuality by following Christ in carrying a cross—crucifying the desires of my flesh—and somehow mystically being raised to the fulfillment of “biblical sexuality,” which in my case meant total abstention. Confident in answers I had found, I wrote that “sex is not a need, but rather a gift and a privilege,” that it was “designed by God as an integral component of a loving, heterosexual marriage, and that limited context is the only place where it is truly and permanently fulfilling.” I reported that “I was able to make the hard choice to embrace biblical sexuality and submit myself to healing mercy….dying to myself and being raised to new life,” and that I would like to hear that others too were “crucifying the sinful nature and its desires.” The subtext reads that I was gritting my teeth and driving a stake into the ground. I was determined to be “perfect”—a sexual martyr, dying to my flesh and making resurrection happen, impressing my parents and the moral and doctrinal guardians of the church. I was fighting a battle against my own perceived sexual corruption and that of others. I was sure that was where salvation lay….
But grace was also working its way into my life. I had many beautiful days—times of laughter with friends, moments of light-hearted growth, of learning about the spirit of generosity. And that Spirit of life, love, and joy began to seep deep into my person. I had become a liberal person in many respects. I was learning despite myself that salvation lies in relationship rather than rules. And from that small root of grace, I reached out for friends, in that same article in Stumbling: “…I wish I knew some gay and lesbian Christians,” something I never would have asked for a few years earlier. After all these years, I still had no friends who were comfortable with their own homosexuality.
Very gracefully, Michael King invited me to participate in the conversational Stumbling book. He did not dismiss me as a quack or place censure on the way I presented my nervous, dogmatic (and confused) vision of God and sexuality. Rather, he gave me space to squeeze out that little call for friends in the midst of my security blanket of “answers.” That was very life-giving for me. Through my participation in Stumbling, I became acquainted with happy gay people for the first time in my life.
And an amazing thing happened. I lost interest in becoming heterosexual. Of course, it wasn’t that simple, but that was the basic transformation. A year after my writing, shortly before the book came off the press, I had a crisis of faith. I had become miserable in my quest for sexual “healing” and “purity.” As mentioned above, I was in meetings every night of the week (and sometimes more), being told that my sexuality was no good and needed to be quieted and controlled. I had already realized that I could not expect to ever marry a woman; and here I was, a healthy, sexually-vibrant 24-year-old man, being trained in asexuality. It no longer felt right. This was not the life I wanted. I was performing for others, and had grown tired. I could not pretend that I was more healthy than those who accept their homosexuality as good. They were free to relate to God and be joyful in the sexuality that is natural to them. I was stifling my natural sexuality to please an anti-gay God who, I realized with surprise, apparently does not exist.
It had to end. I admitted to myself that I no longer desired to fight my homosexuality, and I began to explore what it means to be gay, and how to relate to God outside of boxes, heterosexual, doctrinal or otherwise.
Coming In
A year later, I don’t have any more “answers” than I did before. God is a mystery to me. My most tangible experience of this divine mystery is grace. I have been amazed at the warmth and love expressed to me by people on both sides of the “homosexuality issue.” As I have begun to live my gayness and to voice the questions I have about God, sex, etc., people continuously show me love and welcome, without fear and condemnation. To me, this is the greatest evidence that there is a God, and that God is love, hope and peace.
I have come to know many wonderful gay and lesbian folks in the last year, and they have shown me grace, forgiving my former statements against homosexuality and welcoming me into the joy of being at peace with my sexual orientation. I have received grace also from my family and other conservative friends and church people who never want to judge me. While they may not understand or agree with my choice to accept a gay identity, they desire, like my gay brothers and lesbian sisters, to journey with me as a friend and fellow pilgrim. So far, I have been welcomed to God’s table, not chased away, and I feel very loved.
Grace amazes me. Even if God is simply the Spirit of Grace in the universe, he is greater than our minds can fathom and is worthy of worship and service. And Jesus is special, truly special. I believe that in following his way, I will have life. But I don’t presume to have all the answers—it’s just one step at a time. In my congregation, our motto is “people on a journey with Jesus.” And that’s me. I am a gay man journeying with Jesus, following sometimes close and sometimes incredulous, sometimes pious and sometimes denying. Sometimes sure and sometimes fearful, but ever in awe of grace, and trusting my future to Love.
Kathy, Okay. So what? Sinners want to find personal solace in their sin. People want the benefits of Christ, but don't want to give up their sin. What else is new?
Read his story and substitute alcoholism for homosexuality. He has struggled with alcoholism, and wants to justify it and has now found other alcoholics who drink with him and talk about God. They even play church together, and that makes them all feel really good about their alcoholism. The point to notice is the story is all about himself and the justification of his sin -- that sin being his false self-identity, thinking that God made him a homosexual (sinner). God doesn't make people sinners, though all people are born sinners. This is simply a misreading of the Biblical narratives.
Read his story and substitute idolatry or adultery for homosexuality. He has struggled with these sins, but in his unconverted heart he knows that nothing is really wrong with them. They are just culturally conditioned. So, he finds other idolaters and/or adulterers who have similar beliefs, desires and struggles -- smart people who show him how to read his own thoughts and desires into Scripture as a way to justify their sin. They too play church, and live happily ever after. Well... not quite ever after, but for a while because God really is gracious. "The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
Sinners have always used God's grace as a justification for sin. Paul spoke of this many times. "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:6-7). Distorting the gospel, even with the best of intentions, is an old ploy and the bane of the church.
Everyone struggles with God's message and God's grace until they are converted, changed, born again, whatever you want to call it. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). And once converted, changed by the power and presense of the Holy Spirit, the real struggle begins in earnest. But it's not the same struggle. Where it used to be struggling against God and obedience to His Word, now it becomes struggling on behalf of God and His Word, helping people get the Word of God straight, not helping sinners to justify their sin.
Another personal testimony I just received privately, with permission to share. These stories are coming as a gift. If you choose to read them, I hope you'll do so as if you are facing this person over a cup of coffee, not as if you are critiquing an on-line piece of writing. Thank you to those who share:
My Story
I have lived my life as a Christian. I am a retired teacher, and I have 13 grandchildren. I am a lesbian. I want to tell you a little about my life.
I knew from a very young age that I had feelings that were different from other girls. I didn’t understand those feelings, and I did not have any words to describe what I felt. But I knew I was different.
When I was 7 years o ld I invited Jesus Christ into my heart to be my Savior. I was baptized, and Jesus was first in my life. I loved reading my Bible and devotionals.
As I entered my teens, I continued to have feelings that I did not understand. In the context of my growing up, I didn’t know anything about homosexuality except from what I read in my KJV Bible. So I believed those feeling were wrong and were the cross I would bear for Jesus.
I married at age 18 - soon I had four healthy, beautiful children. They were the center of my life, the joy of my heart. Loving them, reading the Bible and praying with them, I felt my life was nearly complete. I wanted them to know and love Jesus the way I did. I did everything I knew to h ave our family live a Christian life. The secret cross I bore was the feelings deep inside that I was different, and that it was sinful to feel that way. I didn’t have anyone to talk to about it, so I prayed and carried on.
My husband was not a Christian, and he didn’t feel fulfilled sexually - so he left me for another woman, leaving me with 4 school-aged children and no education or work. I opened a small business in my home and began taking college classes toward earning my teaching credential.
While attending college classes, I became aware of gay and lesbian people on campus. I learned that my secret and hidden feelings were homosexual, were called lesbian. I knew I must keep that repressed, and I prayed every day for God to heal me, to take that away. I continued trying my utmost to be a go od Christian, a prefect mother, and a devoted Sunday School teacher. On the outside, everything looked pretty good, but God did not heal those lesbian feelings.
For the next 30 years I lived as a single woman, fully committed to my relationship with Jesus Christ, studying His word, seeing my children grow up and get married, teaching school, and going on mission trips. Every year, I spent New Year’s Day in fasting and prayer, asking God for direction for the year. My prayer was, “Where do you want me this year, Lord? For whom shall I pray? How shall I serve?” Year after year, I wrote down God’s answers as I walked with Him in praise and thanksgiving.
As I was praying on January 1, 2007, God moved in my heart and His message was clear in my mind, “This year it is about you, my beloved, about the part of you are that you have denied all these years.”
I Googled “gay Christian” and discovered a whole universe of information about being gay and lesbian. I read amazing stories about real people, real Christians, gay and lesbian, who have become honest with themselves and God about who they are as gay and lesbian people. I read about all the false translations which have kept thousands of gay and lesbian people from knowing that God loves them.
Again I turned to my Bible. Suddenly it seemed as if passages were shining under a radiant light. The Holy Spirit filled me with the knowledge of God’s grace and mercy for me. The whole room filled with the presence of Jesus. Indescribable joy filled me. I=2 0KNEW beyond a shadow of doubt God loves me just as I am! I am saved through Jesus Christ, my Lord.
Then I prayed that God would let me meet some real lesbian Christians. In His amazing and miraculous timing, within weeks I met wonderful Christian lesbians with stories similar to mine. After a year of friendship, I am now in a life-long committed relationship with a woman, sharing the kind of love I always longed to know. (I think it’s important to mention that lesbian love is not so much about sex, but about relationship.)
I believe the Bible and its authority. The Old Testament tells of God’s relationship with the Hebrew people. The New Testament shows us Jesus, God’s Son, and his teachings, death and resurrection, as well as the experiences and faith of the first followers of Jesus. The Bible creates and nurtures faith through the work of the Holy Spirit and points to Jesus Christ, the living Word and center of my faith. Through reading the Bible, one is invited into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And I believe that God has set me free in Jesus Christ to live as a Christian lesbian.
If God is interested in your heart,Bar, then one's sexual orientation is immaterial to salvation is it not? One can become consumed by one's passion, and that is a bad thing, hetero or homo. Being gay is not bad.Nether is being straight. Its the way we live our lives, the content of our hearts.
Barvubuela, right on! "What God reveals he heals." And the corrolary: where there isn't healing, there hasn't been revealing.
"But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake." ( 2Corinthians 4:2-5).
PS There is certainly no such a character as a "homosexual" Christian. To be a Christian one must HATE sin. Satan is the one who encourages it. Simple fact. If you follow the sinner. You follow Satan. his name is DEATH!!
PaRoss, you said it like it is. I can't seam to understand why YOU have not been attacked for it. Not that you should. You are perfectly correct. God bless!! Keep up the GOOD fight!!
It is a fool who believes perversion is "Alright" Now who wants to stand up and show themselves to be a fool?? No one listens to a FOOL!!
Golden, to disagree with someone, is not to attack them. Just as to dissent is not to deny. I would hope you would know the difference.I have no agenda Golden, except the pursuit of the truth.
As to your closing sentence: "Now who wants to stand up and show themselves to be a fool?? No one listens to a FOOL!!"
Am I a fool? Then I accept the term gladly.
4:10 We [are] fools for Christ's sake, but ye [are] wise in Christ; we [are] weak, but ye [are] strong; ye [are] honourable, but we [are] despised.
Many of the saints, including my own beloved Saint Francis have used the term "fool" to describe themselves and their companions. Fools such as myself often use shocking, unconventional behavior to challenge accepted norms. Am I doing that? Perhaps, perhaps not. But that uncertainty of meaning is also a part of the special grace that we "Christian fools" have. However, if you mean fool as a degrading term(which I believe you do), then I would advise you to pick up and re-read the Gospel:
5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
The Supreme Court of California ruled today that the Gay Marriage amendment , will stay on the November ballot - The voters of California will now decide , not 4 unelected individuals , who thought they could push this on to the entire country . Its funny , my wife is a successful hair stylist and many of her peers , friends are gay . I have hung out with them and I have no problem with them , some of them are probably better people than me . I just believe that Gay activity is 100% wrong , I truly believe God believes this . I really was not that upset , until these four unelected people decided to play God . I am glad this issue is on the ballot . Lets put this on every state ballot , let the voters decide if they are a Gay state or a straight state (In regards to marriage) .
2:15 Let it be your care to get the approval of God, as a workman who has no cause for shame, giving the true word in the right way. 2:16But take no part in wrong and foolish talk, for those who do so will go farther into evil, 2:17And their words will be like poisoned wounds in the flesh: such are Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Men whose ideas are all false, who say that the coming back from the dead has even now taken place, overturning the faith of some.2:19 But God's strong base is unchanging, having this sign, The Lord has knowledge of those who are his: and, Let everyone by whom the name of the Lord is named be turned away from evil. 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but others of wood and earth, and some which are honoured and some without honour. 2:21 If a man makes himself clean from these, he will be a vessel for honour, made holy, ready for the master's use, ready for every good work. 2:22 But keep yourself from those desires of the flesh which are strong when the body is young, and go after righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those whose prayers go up to the Lord from a clean heart. 2:23 And put away foolish and uncontrolled questionings, seeing that they are a cause of trouble. 2:24 For it is not right for the Lord's servant to make trouble, but he is to be gentle to all, ready in teaching, putting up with wrong, 2:25Gently guiding those who go against the teaching; if by chance God may give them a change of heart and true knowledge, 2:26 And so they may get themselves free from the net of the Evil One, being made the prisoners of the Lord's servant, for the purpose of God.
There were people who believed the resurrection had already happened,turns out they were wrong too. I see a few smart educated people who want the rest of us to believe that God almighty is o.k. with same sex marriage. You can twist God's word but the fact still remains there are many places in scripture that condemns Sin. This to me is considered profane and vain babblings. It is obvious that no matter how we try to sway the few who believe this way it is of no avail because they are convinced in their heart that they are right. I say if the blind lead the blind...This seems to promote homosexual Christian Living. I have read lots of material on this subject my conclusion is that future Generations will suffer (should the Lord tarry) if we don't take a stand now. I think God is speaking but we don't see it that way. Lighting causing thousands of acres to burn, in the same state that is causing this uproar. Financial problems for two companies that support this agenda (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) but we still can't see it. at this point all we can do is pray. God can do a far greater work than we ever can. Like E.F Hutton when God is done speaking maybe men will repent and turn from their wicked ways. Finally have you all ever read what the loving God did to his people Israel in Psalm 78 this is how a loving God deal with a wicked and perverse nation. may God have mercy on us all.
MD, I have to say as a Black man I fail to see the similarity between homosexuality and Slavery. One group was fighting for the right to be free, the other group is trying to fight for the right to be freaky two totally different schools of thought.Gay people have great jobs, live in some of the better neighborhoods, have gone to some of the best schools. While blacks still struggle in a lot of area's to be free from the stigma of slavery and racism. hurricane Katrina showed us that. No my brother when looking through the eyes of a black man I can't see it. and unless you can say that from where I am sitting you would never see it.
Actually Elam, I was making the comparison with the whole "free state" vs "slave state" solution in the 19th century. You fail to see the comparison? I can't really say I am suprised.
"The barometer of where one is on human right questions is no longer the black community, it's the gay community. Because it is the community which is most easily mistreated." -Bayard Rustin (an American civil rights activist, important largely behind the scenes in the civil rights movement of the 1960's and the principal organizer of the 1963 March on Washington. He counseled MLK Jr. on the techniques of non-violent resistance)
Malleus trying to say that we should have an all out civil war to free Gays ? I would not put the Gay push in the same breath as Slavery . The majority will have their voice heard . If California voters decide that their a Gay state , than so be it . We will fight against this to the very end though and will have our victory in front of our lord , on our judgement day .
Pastor Elam, I believe you are a sincere and intelligent man, who would not get into such discussions as this except that his strong convictions led him here. I respect that in you, and I understand what you are saying. I must respond to you, however, that, on the contrary, this issue is very closely parallel to the Civil Rights movement of the '60s. You may never see it that way, as you are on a different side of this movement.
During that earlier movement, certainly the black population knew they were equally human and deserving of justice. (I would go a step further and say they were far more deserving of fair treatment than the white supremecist members of society who fought to keep them down, but that's a blog for another day.) There were also an increasing number of white persons who understood the lack of justice and who spoke out for their black brothers and sisters. Many white faces were scattered among the civil rights marches. But most of the white majority believed, as had been passed down generation to generation, that black people were not fully human, and, although they should not be treated with cruelty, they should also not be treated with equality. The Holy Scripture was used to back up these horrid beliefs. (See the third paragraph of this blog.)
As a white woman, I often question whether I would have had the courage to march, to speak out, to "blog." I can only hope that I would have walked alongside the likes of white Michigan woman Viola Gregg Liuzzo, who was killed by the Klan, (not that I would want to have ended in her fate). With MLK and with Dante, I believe one of our greatest sins is that of saying nothing in the midst of injustice. I have been very active in black civil rights in more ways than I can legally expound here, and I will continue to fight until I see true equality reached.
Now, however, we are living in a new civil rights era, in which the injustice has shifted from black Americans to homosexual Americans. Not that we ever fully completed the first one, because we haven't, but now we have a new group to treat as subhuman. And in one sense it shocks me that my black brothers and sisters are a part of this injustice. From the other side, however, I am not surprised at all, because, again, this has become, handed down generation to generation, a Bible-based fight. Those who fight against equal rights for gay persons are almost exclusively fundamentalist or evangelical Christians who truly believe that God does not approve of these people. The problem with this, as I have said over and over, is not one we can fix on this blog, as it is deeply rooted in how we have been taught to read and interpret God's word. There is a deep and widespread ignorance (that words means simply a lack of knowledge and understanding) across the Christian community that cannot be penetrated with merely a discussion such as this.
As I mentioned in this blog, I find it unbelievable that an entire culture in the 1930s and '40s could believe the lie that Jewish people were subhuman and needed to be exterminated. Hitler gets all the blame for this, and deservingly so, but he didn't make up this ideology. It had been passed form generation to generation, even from Martin Luther's writings in the 1500s, and, yes, Scripture was used to "prove' this injustice too!
Pastor Elam, you said, "It is obvious that no matter how we try to sway the few who believe this way it is of no avail because they are convinced in their heart that they are right." Your point is poignant and pivotal, as it is exactly the sentiment of each side of this issue toward the other.
Last night I received a private message that included the following: "One thing I learned . . . is that I cannot expect to have unifying conversation about this or any divisive issue unless there is positive, loving relationship to undergird such conversation--in other words, until I actually, personally love the person I'm criticizing, I might as well keep my mouth shut. It's a hard lesson to learn, and I imagine I'll struggle with the tendency to criticize my entire life. But I hope to grow more and more into the kind of person who learns to know and love people before trying to hold them accountable. I think that's probably how Jesus would do it." Very well said, no matter which side of this issue we are on!
It is my most sincere prayer, not that I will win in this issue, but that God will win. May we, as His followers, not hinder Him or His Gospel.
MD, I failed to make the comparison because you never made that "free state vs "slave state" statement unless you did and I missed it. Yes my friend when it comes to words and Theological terms you win hands down ((((((Clap,Clap)))))) but I am smart enough to know right from wrong, weak from strong,and wheat from tares. In the words of Jesus let the wheat and the tares grow together and in the day of harvest he would do the separating. Now let's see did I get that one right or did he mean something different in that statement too. I am sure you will enlighten us being that you are so smart and all. Now that is not as bad as "I can't really say I'm surprised" it"s just a smart way of calling a person dumb. would you agree with me MD, on that. I love you anyway.
It is written in 2 Peter 3:16b - 18: "... which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID! Holy Spirit POwER Ministry; see us on My Church.
poignant (poin'yent)1.Physically painful. b. Keenly distressing to the mind c. Appealing to the emotions: touching 2.Piercing: incisive 3.Neat, skillful to the point
For those of us without collage degrees.
Kathy, I love you I just don't agree with you I also don't want to see humans not be able to eat, have a decent place to lay their head etc. Gays or Homosexuals can go in any Restaurant sit down have a meal with almost no problems. Blacks could not and in some rural tows in America still can't. I saw the Gay pride parade this was the 38th annual one. I didn't see any water hoses, no dogs biting people, No police beating them with their clubs. I hope that never happens to any other person or group of people. but to make the comparison of the black injustices to the gay injustices I'm sorry it is an insult. Our women were rapped our children were taken away from us. Our people worked for hundreds of years for free. One thing I will say is that as painful or as uncomfortable as it is we are talking about it. We don't agree but we are talking about it. One day the choice will be made and it will depend on the choice you make today.We must seek God's true way I love you all and will continue to pray for you all.
No Elam, I am afraid I wouldn't say that. The comment that I can't really say I'm suprised, was not a "smart way of calling a person dumb". It was more sad statement of resignation that you will just keep your blinders on with regards to this issue. If I wished to ridicule your intellect (or lack thereof) I could have used far more subtler tactics. I am many things, unimaginative is not one of them.
No, I think that statement is right. However, if you think that it is going to matter to Christ when he judges your soul is who you decided to love, you will be in for a shock. The content of our soul (have we loved others) and the actions that we have done (have we clothed the naked, fed the poor, etc.) will matter far more than the gender of who we committ ourselves to.
You are right Elam, people that love their own gender do not have anything to fear.
Remember Matthew Shepard?
Covered with blood, save where the tears ran down, that's how the officer who found him described him. More scarecrow than human. Hung on a cross. Left to die. Despised. Rejected. The object of ridicule, oppression and hate. The Passion of Matthew. Echoes of Isaiah. (Maryknoll Magazine, 2001)
31:10 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am in distress; my eye is wasted from grief, my soul and my body also. 31:11For my life is spent with sorrow, and my years with sighing; my strength fails because of my misery, and my bones waste away. 31:12 I am the scorn of all my adversaries, a horror to my neighbors, an object of dread to my acquaintances; those who see me in the street flee from me. 31:13 I have passed out of mind like one who is dead; I have become like a broken vessel. 31:14 Yea, I hear the whispering of many--terror on every side! --as they scheme together against me, as they plot to take my life. 31:15 But I trust in thee, O LORD, I say, "Thou art my God." 31:16 My times are in thy hand; deliver me from the hand of my enemies and persecutors! 31:17 Let thy face shine on thy servant; save me in thy steadfast love!
What I have never understood (age 68); why are co many "Christians" so obsessed with discussing the pros and cons of gay and lesbians; GOD GIVES US ALL THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE - and His Word clearly warns us that those who make the wrong choice(s) will spend eternity in Hell - A REAL PLACE!
Yes; God loves all sinners, including those many bloggers who have respond to this particular article (including me). Bur folks; let's face it - as you look around you at the rapid deteriotion of our society - most who call themselves "Christian" are going to spend eternity with those who die in thier sins of homosexuality. We all need to get the planks out of our own eyes!
So the question is: WHERE WILL YOU SPEND ETERNITY? And what does Ephesians 5:27 mean to you?
If you have the time for more relevant discussions; please pay us a visit on this network.
Proof that advocacy can go overboard at times. There is no comparison between Matthew Shepard and the Lamb of God. Shepard gave his life for no one, it was taken away from him against his will. Sorry MD, but I find that somewhat offensive.
Hey I'm not cool with it. God made Adam and Eve, Man and Woman. I don't judge anyone because of the lifestyle the live because at the end of the day we supposed to love them and let God do the judging. It's funny as a Christian and growing up in the church you want the unsaved or that sinner to come to God or to church but when they get their people shun them or they don't even give them a chance. I think as humans we need to work on being like little gods loving unconditionally like God love us. We mess but he still loves us a gives us a chance over and over again.
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it (us) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
There is only one way to be a part of God's church - I am a part of that glorious church having been washed by the Blood of the Lamb, clothed in His Holy righteousness, by faith, not of my own works. I am saved by God’s Grace and living in His Grace right now and for all eternity. Eternity does not begin after you die - we are living in God's eternity now. We can choose to live and love with justice, mercy, and walk humbly …. let the Holy Spirit guide us as we ask HOW to live justice and mercy with humility. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast." Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
HSPM, most Christians are not really seeking to understand the mindset of those Christians who disagree with them. If you are sincere in such a desire, a thorough and thoughtful reading of this blog and all the comments presents the answers you are seeking. I'm not asking you to read and change your position, but just to read and understand the opposing viewpoint. May we all seek to understand and appreciate each other as fellow Christians, and may we not attempt to judge which of our Christian brothers and sisters will go to hell. John 3:16.
Pastor Elam, Yes, our culture has changed since the 1960s. Our prejudices have become much more concealed (even to ourselves) and sophisticated. We no longer have separate water fountains and separate bus seats, but please don't kid yourself into believing that that the gay community is not being horrifically mistreated, even to death. Please spend some time on-line searching the many hate-crime stories that never make the news. You will be shocked.
The gay people's advantage over the black struggle is that their skin is not "gay-colored", so they are not as likely to be attacked by strangers, unless of course they should dare to hold hands in public . . .
I am not one to measure any atrocity to the holocaust or to the civil rights movement. These were eras in our history that stand alone, with nothing else being fully comparable to their forms of injustice. It is, however, very useful to note the parallels of all injustices and to attempt to learn from our past. "But this time we are on God's side," many say. As said the masses in both these other eras. God gets blamed from some horrific atrocities of flawed and well-meaning human judgment, and shamefully it is often "Christians" who are leading the way, based on their misinterpretations of God's word.
Another prejudice I'm perceiving here is one against education. God's grace is not based on a person's level of education, but it only benefits us to become more knowledgeable in all things. It is foolishness to consider education a detriment. God's children are like our children. Always choosing sides and finding new reasons to throw stones at each other. Will we ever learn to love each other (not only in word) and to appreciate the value of each others' differences? I'm guessing not.
Mike, my apologies if I offended. I was not attempting to make a case for the redemptive and salvific power of Matthew Shepard. However I do think it is valid to see in Shepard's suffering (as in the suffering of all those who are persecuted),and that of Christ.
Nearly 800 years ago, St. Francis of Assisi, found that one of his more learned friars, a certain Anthony of Padua, was interested in teaching theology to other friars. In response, Francis wrote:
It is my pleasure that you teach theology to the brothers, provided, however, that as the Rule prescribes, the spirit of prayer and devotion may not be extinguished.
Kathy, we are not making the judgment about who goes to hell. We all agree that that judgment belongs to God alone. But here's the issue, God told us who would go to hell in the Bible. So, we read it, and voila! There it is: "Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
There are two important things to note about these verses. First, we are all on the list of those who will not inherit the kingdom, "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). It looks like we are all headed for hell, you and me, too, Kathy. But wait!
Paul went on to say some of those who were slated for hell have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. The biblical idea of being washed, sanctified and justified is that the indiviual has encountered a very basic change in his or her life. He or she has repented of former sins, those same sins that Paul listed above -- and more. Too many more. And, of course, our repentance of sin does not mean that we suddenly conquer it all and live without sin happily ever after -- not at all! Sin continues to dog us, two steps forward and one step back. Lordy, non of us are perfect! We are all sinners. We know that.
But in Christ we strive for improvement. We work to sin less every day in every way. And we come to agree with God about what sin is, then we gladly and willingly work to eradicate sin from our lives, our families, and our communities. Sin is not just a personal thing because we are not just personal beings. We are communal beings. Our identies and our orientations always have communal elements. So, our salvation must also be more than personal -- and it is. That's what the church is all about, the community of believers/sinners, washed by the blood of the Lamb.
There is a common element among those who have been washed, sanctified and justified -- we know from personal experience what God has done to us. We know that our lives have turned a significant corner, that we are not like we used to be, before Christ got ahold of us. We know how we have changed under the conviction of Jesus Christ, and how our primary orientation in life has been completely changed. It made a one-eighty. In Christ, we are no longer oriented like we used to be oriented. We can identify similar changes in other Christians, and we can see when such changes have not happened. We know when they have not happened becuase we are intimately familiar with all of the dodges, rationalizations, denials and excuses that we have made for ourselves in our own moments of sin and lapses from Christ. We know them all too well.
This common thing that we see in other Christians is the only real Christian unity there is, and it is far from perfect -- but it is real! None of us are at the same place in our own growth and sanctification. We bicker and disagree, but our disagreements are like iron sharpening iron (Proverbs 27:17). So, it often doesn't look like unity from the outside, sparks are flying, wheels are grinding. But from the inside we know that it takes one to know one.
Sin can fool people whose Christianity is merely in their heads. You can even fool people whose Christianity is mainly in their hearts -- for "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). But those whose Christianity has penetrated through their bodies, their flesh and their "walk" into their very souls are not fooled by the pathetic and shallow antics of sin's self-justification.
I know that sinners often think that they are into "deep" stuff -- been there, done that. But when Christ is seriously engaged, 24/7, as a lifestyle, in covenantal commitment, as a vocation and as a hobby -- and the richness of Christian history -- Christian literature -- is discovered, what was previously considered to be "deep" is seen for what it is, a mere wading pool for children.
All this talk is interesting but in the end it will come down to voters . Each state that has not amended their constitution to make marriage ONE MAN - ONE WOMEN , will have this issue at their door step . The church and Christians must mobilize and show up for the vote , when given the chance . If not you can always move to a Christ loving state .
Your statement implies that gay people don't love Christ. Which is a large part of what this rhetoric in this thread has been about. What is going to be interesting is when this issue of contract law (which is what a civil marriage, and to a lesser degree sacramental ones are) is applied to other contracts between states as well.
I guess if the minority can some how over ride a constitutional amendment were all in trouble . Of course I have yet to see an issue in this country where the majority stands up for its self . I long for a day when 20 million people or more might march on Washington in peaceful protest to stand up for their rights . I wish this would have happened when 8 unelected people took God's word out of American schools . Maybe Gas prices will be that issue or the shipping of American jobs to countries who pay their workers $ 1.00 hour - America is not hurting enough yet but when it does all will break out . Minority view points who cause the majority to suffer greatly will be crushed .
You call it rhetoric , but there is raw emotion and Christians will never unite for Gay Marriage . This issue will polarize Christians and pit Christian vs Christian , as we have witnessed by the blog topic .
Also, because I speak the truth I have been labelled a hater by the minority voice , so when I said crushed , I did not mean physically( Politically ) Jesus spoke the truth and was hated and killed for it . When the Anti Christ comes will we be willing to Die for our savior ? God, your army stands ready and we will fight for your word , teachings (Bible) to the end
Hi, You have put so much work into this. Are you familiar with the book, "Homosexuality and the politics of truth"? An interesting insight into the changing social attitudes to homosexuality in recent years. It states that before the public acceptance of homosexuality, the 'condition' was being successfully treated by psychologists. Something I cannot verify, however I personally know 4 people, and know of many others who sought healing and were radicly freed from their homosexuality, and live very happy straight lives. This would not have happened if Christian's had not loved them unconditionally, whether they changed or not. Sexual orientation is a very complex issue, and the reasons why a person is gay has not been proved by science, particularly biological reasons. There is however strong evidence, that for many, external circumstances can lead to homosexual leanings. The Christian response needs to be as Jesus would have done. Unconditional love and acceptance, and if the person accepts your love, a simple nonjudgmental pointing out sin, and letting the person make their own choice on the matter.
Thanks for the private message educating me on 47xxy-intersex. This is not something about which I have much knowledge, but surely these people have a unique struggle deserving of our compassion and our prayers. Another thought-provoking scenario that illustrates how blurred gender indentities can be, and how unrelated to choice they are. See the following links sent to me: What Is Intersex? (ISNA) Transgender (Wikipedia) Third Gender (Wikipedia)
Hi David. Welcome to MyChurch, and welcome to this discussion. I would be very interested to see any documentation on the psychologist "cures," as this goes against all the reputable research I have seen. What was the criteria for being considered "cured," and how long were these "cured" patients followed? How would you characterize the bias of this particular book? Who wrote it, and who published it? Personal testimony can go a long way, and I am happy for your four friends! Nice to meet you, David! You'll love MyChurch!
Lets shift our efforts and communication to something that can all unite us PRAYER , please check out www.thecall.com , were trying to get One Million people to come to God's National monument, Washington DC , August 16th, 2008 - I do not believe in Homosexuality and believe it to be a sin . As I am a big sinner myself and can only be saved by the blood and mercy of my savior , I would love to stand side by side with my Gay brothers and sister in prayer , Amen
Hi Kathy, as stated, I cannot verify the validity of what someone has written in a book . However it was an interesting read and if true, puts an interesting slant on the topic. "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" by Jeffrey Satinover M.D. Published by Hamewith books. Cheers David.
I have friends who have been chosen to be homosexuals. I have no problem being friends with them. But after taking the time to read your rather long initial post as you requested, I have to tell you that it is not a very well informed stance.
Sadly the gay community is statistically the most violent commnity out there. Those are the facts. Dr Dobson has an article on his website written by someone else that totally refutes scientifically people being born gay. There is nothing scientifically different in the brain that causes a person to be homosexual..I have not read the discussion here. I am just putting in my two cents.
KATHY , will you respond to THE CALL ? www.thecall.com - America come to Washington August 16th, 2008 . Lets show our Father , in public how much we love and need him in America .
GraceAlone, welcome to MyChurch, and welcome to this blog discussion. Please allow me to respond to your comments. You said: " I have to tell you that it is not a very well informed stance." Then you explain that Dr. Dobson does not agree with me. Grace, I am quite aware that my position and Dr. Dobson's are not one and the same. Although Dr. Dobson began his ministry as a respectable Christian family psychologist who separated himself from politics, he now has become a leading power in our national right-wing political arena, selling out completely to the far-right of the Republican agenda. Although he is only one human being, anything he says is quickly and unquestionably adopted by a large segment of our nation's population. Dr. Dobson is a charismatic and intelligent Christian spokesman, but, like Jerry Falwell, Paige Patterson, Adrian Rogers, and others who tow that literalist line of Scriptural interpretation, he has become merely a very powerful politician, controling the thinking of millions of trusting Christian followers.
You stated: "the gay community is statistically the most violent commnity out there." Please explain your evidence of this, so we can analyze it intelligently.
Right Wing and Republican are not the same thing. I am a conservative. I am not a republican. I definately am not a socialist-marxist elete Democrat. We who are true conservatives follow the scriptural parable of the talents. Capitalism is not perfect, but it allows for the talents of individuals to either succeed or fail. That is where faith comes into play.
Faith is not a government solving a persons issues or just running their lives. Social medicine is causing such a drain on the economy in Germany and France that they are considering dumping social medicine.
Selling out. That sounds like an agenda driven power word. Because you do not agree with something it is selling out? How abou the man has his opinion. He acts on his opinion. How is that selling out. I dont even always agree with his opinions. But him working towards something he believes in is called character and comittment. Sounds more like you write him off because he differs from you.
I will give you and example. Charlie Rose was interviewing Barrack Obama. Charlie is not a conservative. He asked Obama why he wanted to raise the Investment taxes from 15% to 30% when it has been totally proven that they take in more money, much more money in taxes at 15%. The responce Obama gave was....It is about being fair.
No Barrack, its about doing what is right. Its about understanding how an economy works ....and his answer is fair? Really Brilliant.
In 1st John 1, The epistle discusses sin. Why? Because there were many Gnostics going to the fellowships there. Gnostics really did not believe that they were sinners or had sin. Big Issue, Why? Because it is Sin that seperates mankind from God before they are born again. The bible calls homosexuality a abomination. That is serious. God is not going to create people in contradiction to what he desires.
Are You Gay? Just curious.
You wanted Violence in the Gay Community? Some of the biggest serial killers of alltime were gay.
I would like to know more about the violence referred to above. What I find in a few minutes of searching is violence committed AGAINST gay people. If you have other information please share it.
Total Hate Crime Incidents, 2006Crimes against persons, percentage of total
Race
4,737
2,987
63%
Religion
1,597
553
35%
Sexual Orientation
1,415
1,004
71%
Ethnicity
1,233
858
70%
Disability
94
47
50%
TOTAL
9,076
5,449
60%
Out of all the major categories, hate crime incidents motivated by sexual orientation are more likely to be crimes against persons (i.e. violent crimes) as opposed to crimes against property (robbery, vandalism, etc.). Only Ethnicity come close, and that is largely due to the recent surge in anti-Hispanic hate crimes for 2006. But Hispanics and other ethnicities are currently protected by federal hate crimes laws. So is religion.
Well Bestmore read my links. The violence within the gay community households was found to be double that of the heterosexual households. Double. And there are many more heterosexual couples than gay.
Um, yes, I found that one before you uploaded - Here is a web site which references that Canada study with a different analysis: "Domestic violence statistics in same-sex relationships are roughly the same as in heterosexual relationships.,," You may see the rest here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OJX/is_3_31/ai_n25001734
I did read the links Grace, may I provide a few observations?:
(1) Paul Cameron, the author of the first study has had an inactive psychological license since 1995. He was also expelled from the American Psychological Association in 1983 due to ethical violations. He was expelled from the Nebraska Psychological Association in 1984,he was expelled from the American Sociological Association for misrepresenting data in 1986, and in 1996 was expelled form the Canadian Psychological Association. Doesn't really have stellar academic credentials now does he?
(2) Did you even read the link from everything2.com? The article just calls for the existence of same-sex domestic violence laws. It really doesn't comment on the incidence rate,nor does it take a critical view of the relationships themselves.
(3) The third link and its claim about the Canadian study are not exactly true. Out of the 97 page Canadian report, the word homosexual only occurs once. And it states the following on pg 39 (emphasis mine):
Violence perpetrated in same-sex couples is an important area of study but very little data existto describe the extent or nature of the problem. The 2004 General Social Survey (GSS) inquired about sexual orientation and results showed that spousal violence was twice as common among homosexual couples compared with heterosexual couples: 15% and 7% respectively. It was not possible to calculate rates of spousal violence for male and female couples separately due to low sample sizes. Among the spousal violence cases that were dealt with by a subset of police agencies over a 10-year period, 2.5% involved same-sex couples.
I also find it ironic that someone with the moniker of "GraceAlone" insists that "Data is what matters" I would love to see you quantify and categorize God's grace. You state that "psychology itself is a fallen society based on men's opinions" Then you post such "fallen" opinions ad nausem. Odd.
The serial killer comment is a red herring. Most serial killers don't get even caught, so your statement is hardly a fact.
And do you really maintain that raping and mudering someone as part of a psychosis is the same as a gay relationship. I would be most curious then what you think that the heterosexual proclivites of Ted Bundy and Richad Ramirez indicates about the state of heterosexuality.
Michelle, your views are welcome and respected here. For some reason your comment was cut off at the end of every line, so I hope I respond appropriately to your questions. The piano, holocaust, and African-American data were to show that the Christian community has been wrong many times throughout history, as I believe it is now on this issue. The 2006 item was not meant to be taken as a direct quote. The list was just as I stated, a list of issues that are difficult to discuss intelligently, because we have such strong and polarizing opinions about them. I understand your view and have no desire to change it, but perhaps you and I can unite on one front. We are both concerned about gay people and their loved ones. So we can pray together for them that the perfect mind of Christ be revealed to them on this issue. Not my will and not yours, but that of the omnipotent and omniscient Creator. With this prayer we cannot go wrong. God bless you, Michelle, and God bless your work for Him!
And where the "literalist line of Scriptural interpretation" actually drawn? Isn't it just a dodge to deflect the plain and common reading of unwanted and unliked texts? Do trees clap their hands? (Have you ever been to Aspen in the Fall? It sure sounds like the clapping of little leafy hand like apendeges.)
Kathy said, "So we can pray together for them (homosexuals) that the perfect mind of Christ be revealed to them on this issue. Not my will and not yours, but that of the omnipotent and omniscient Creator." Isn't God's will revealed in Scripture? (Answer: it is!) Don't we learn about God's will by reading Scripture? (Answer: we do.) Isn't Scripture literature, so it should be read literally (which means "without exaggeration"? (Answer: of course.)
What about Christian unity? "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 2:5). It seems that we are to be thinking like Jesus, and knowing how Jesus thought requires a careful and faithful reading of the Bible. It's not just imagining what we think that Jesus might think, say and/or do. And what not pray that God's will be revealed to us all on all issues. And "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment" (1 Corinthians 1:10)." We are to be united in the same judgment! Are you working toward this goal with this blog? If so, you are going to have to point it out because I don't see it.
(Someone else may have to ask my questions because Kathy is not going to humor me with any response.)
This blog may also be of interest to people here as a practical response to all this.
Welcome, Becky. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Mr Ross, I have addressed most of your questions in the blog. I have no problem with either Republicans or Democrats, but do view the extremes of both parties as misguided. God did not create either party and does not dwell exclusively in either of them.
I read your post and the comments and I find all very interesting. I do agree that all should be treated with love and respect. I continued to read almost all the response and notice that some people where getting a little disrespectful. A lot of people pointed out that homo. was a sin and how awful these people are and I am not debating whether it is or not that is not important to me. The fact is we all have sinned and some even sinned responding. It is so awesome that God loves us all, and he has the final say so. No matter what people say God loves us all no matter what. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten song that whosoever believeth shall have everlasting life. That is the word.
Be part of the solution in America , stop your fighting and get behind GOD in America , answer THE CALL www.thecall.com - Unite for God , remember , were also supposed to live together , one day , I do not believe that this type of arguing will be part of God's final world .
Armorbearer, welcome to MyChurch! Controversial issues like this one can indeed bring out the worst in people. You'll find mostly the best of people here though, if you meet with them outside this blog! I'm glad you're here!
World, Are you going to DC for thecall? It looks like a good experience for those who can get away.
"No matter what people say God loves us all no matter what." You are right in that it doesn't matter what we say, God's Word is definitive. And yet, we are called to understand God's Word (Scripture). So, who is the "us all" in your sentence? And what do you do with verses like:
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:45-51). These are not my words, but the words of Jesus.
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (Joh 5:28-29). Again, the words of Jesus.
"He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn'" (Matthew 13:24-30). "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12).
The point is that the judgment of Jesus does indeed send some people to hell. There is more to Scripture than John 3:16. We can't cherry pick verses to believe in. The whole Book is true.
This passage from Matthew is part of the readings from the Mass yesterday (Sunday).
However, as this points out, God judges not man.
This is also another of the readings along with the passage from the lectionary for yesterday which we may also wish to keep in maind:
But though you are master of might, you judge with clemency, and with much lenience you govern us; for power, whenever you will, attends you. And you taught your people, by these deeds, that those who are just must be kind (Wis. 12:13, 16:19)
Wow! PARoss, The word is the word no matter what cherry I pick. For God so Loved the WORLD (me, you, gay, straight, rich, poor, girl, or boy etc). He died for all and he didn't put stipulation on who he died for.
You are right he did say let the wheat and tare grow together meaning he will do the separating, it is not for us to judge anyone. That was my whole point. Sin is sin no matter who it is in. We all have sinned but he without sin cast the first stone. I respect your opinion and thanks for your response.
We must begin speaking of our own sins, the sins we tolerate in our own lives and the lives of our churches.
We must repent of the double standard that sees the sin of homosexuality in a different category than adultery, premarital sex and pornography We must plead guilty to the charge of bigotry,for we have acted as if our sins are minor in comparison to those of the homosexual community, whose sins we think are of a different nature and category. This attitude has caused us to loose our voice in this culture.
We have an obligation to maintain the biblical standards without wavering,but also speak with a healing and redemptive voice.
We have to emphasize to the gay community that opposition to same-sex marriages is not about hate,but debate. opposition to what most of us see as a devastating move that will further weaken the family and harm children. This opposition is not hateful, morality is not bigotry.
Imagine that you are on a large boat, hoping to get to the other side of the lake, when one man insists that he has the "right" to drill a hole through the bottom of his side of the boat. When you object, he argues for tolerance, and reminds you that you can stay on your side with your friends; what he does on his side has no bearing on what you do on your side. But as the water begins to seep into the boat, you are suddenly aware that, like it or not, what one person does on his side of the boat affects everyone in the boat.
We cannot lay all the blame for what is happening at the door of the church because there are many streams that feed our culture. But we must humbly admit that culture has influenced us more than we have influenced the culture.
Finally we must send the message that homosexuality is not an unpardonable sin. Neither is adultery,nor even incest. This is why the bible frequently list a host of other sins right along with those related to sexuality.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clear, which are these: evil desire, unclean things, wrong use of the senses, 5:20 Worship of images, use of strange powers, hates, fighting, desire for what another has, angry feelings, attempts to get the better of others, divisions, false teachings, 5:21 Envy, uncontrolled drinking and feasting, and such things: of which I give you word clearly, even as I did in the past, that they who do such things will have no part in the kingdom of God.
To the persons reading this- homosexual or otherwise, Come to Christ as you are. Come to Jesus as a alcoholic, homosexual, heterosexual, as a thief, but come he loves us so much that if we are in sin he won't leave us that way. He can change anybody. all you need to do is come 4 real.
Till we all come into the unity of the faith and the full measure of the statue of Christ. Be Blessed Pastor Elam
If not, the prevailing "Christian" attitude toward our homosexual brothers and sisters is one of ignorance. Perhaps we are the ones who drill the holes in the boat.
It is obvious truth is being suppressed here. Freedom of speech also. WE do not have brothers and sisters in faith. I can't see how anyone can come up to this silly response. God only recognizes His children. not those of perversion.
If you are going to suppress what people comment on your blog Kathy. Why don't you also invent the people also. It would make your beliefs stand better. I'm not surprised though. I see a lot of people on this Web Site forming thoughts to prove a negative.
Golden, if you read the 220 comments here, I think you will see that all opinions have been welcomed. On the rare occasion I have deleted comments, including 2 yesterday, they crossed lines that I will continue to delete on any of my blogs, like condemning people to hell (God can handle this job Himself), and referring to the Catholic Church as unChristian and fools. This blog is posted to minister to those who are struggling with gay loved ones. Those who wish to discuss and offer alternative Christian viewpoints are welcome as long it is done with respect and without attacking any person or group of people. For these reasons the delete option exists. May God continue to mold our hearts to more reflect the heart of Christ, and teach us to disagree without laying aside our Christian unity and love for each other.
I would urge everyone to read the book "I Say a Little Prayer" by E. Lynn Harris. I won't say too much without giving away the plot twist, but it deals with the issue of where homosexuals fit in a body of believers. The main character is a homosexual business man who used to be part of a singing group and is wanting to revive his career by first singing in the church he attends. It's not actually a "Christian" book (parts of it are a bit graphic), and it doesn't give an ANSWER to the questions it brings up. Instead, it gives the reader a new line of thinking on (this) issue(s). It is a short book, so most readers can complete it in a day. If you can keep an open mind, I strongly urge you to read this book! :)
Read the blog I put up tonight. you wont believe what this man has to say. But you may by some miracle understand. Anyone who coddles their "gay" loved ones are part of the sin. No one said the Roman Catholic Church was not Christian. It is a cult, in the sense you can not leave it or they claim you lose your soul. I was a Roman Catholic for perhaps more years than you've been going to church. Or even have stood in line at one.
God's Church is not a r"eligion". some day, to your great surprise and regret. You will understand this. No one is thrown out of God's Church. They may leave when they want. But you won't be excommunicated. In the old days you were burned at the stake.
You say opinions are welcomed. But you censor them as if you know better than anyone else. I can understand you cumming back with the note that only God can decide you go to hell. Yet, one may choose it themselves. One way may very well be to encourage perversion. Ever think of that?? It is a poor soul that WILL NOT hear God's Word, a truly sad thing.
Thanks, Chica, and welcome to MyChurch! I'm not familiar with that book. Do you speak Spanish? (your name)
Golden, in my blogs, I will continue to delete comments that I perceive as hateful and disrespectful in tone or words to me or others. If you are concerned for the souls of gay people, that's one concern you and I share. God bless your witness for Him.
I am 100% against gay marriage but have zero hate for any Gay person . If a gay person was getting beaten , I would take a beating to try and stop the violence . Peace and Love to all Gay people , I just do not believe in gay marriage .
This was well written and thought provoking. It doesn't change the word of God, but it is a well written blog. So basically, if I am an adulterer or fornicator, I should still be allowed to operate in the house of God. I don't think so. If I am committing adultery, I need to stop. If I am fornicating, I need to stop. I don't get to write it off as just who I am. I love another women's husband so it's ok. I love my boyfriend so the church should look the other way, and let me live my life, yet preaching, yet singing in the choir, yet holding my place before the people. If I am in sin, and we are daily, we need to repent and refrain from it. We only reach perfection outside of flesh. There is none perfect walking this earth, that's also the word. We don't shun liars, cheaters, or any such, we have no right too. We are ALL SINNERS SAVED BY GRACE!!! But to say accept the active sin is crazy and tears down the word. That would be no different then standing before the people of God and I'm sleeping with the married Pastor or I am gambling my life away mon - thurs. . God changes, he transforms, he delivers. Why are folk trying to limit the Holy Ghost, if we do that, then why even believe in the first place. Now if I want to continue doing what I want to do, then that's my choice and I find a church that will allow that. But we can't get mad at the churches that uphold the word. I don't care what your issue, if you repent the Lord is able and he's just. He will forgive and deliver. Homosexuality is no greater sin than being a liar, a cheat whatever your circumstance bring it before the throne of God. If you want deliverance, he is able to do just that. I don't hate a homosexual anymore than I can hate a fornicator or liar. We are all guilty of sin. God is merciful. We don't get to judge anyone, we have to remember none of us were out of the womb saved,. We like to give sin degree's when it is all, SIN. We must learn to love one another, love is what turns a heart. It allows the drunk, the downtrodden to seek Christ. It shows them Gods love for them. But we must uphold the word of God. A half truth is a lie, and we cannot allow Gods word to be turned into a lie.
I thought that I might return and have a look at what other comments have been added to your Blog Kathy, it is truly impressive.
Elam made some interesting points, in his drawing of parralells between racism and homosexuality, I have found that the homosexual movement here in SOuth Africa has used the same arguments that homosexuals inthe USA are using, And there fore we have a constitution which specifically mentions sexual orientation as being protected like racism. As a white South African I agree with fighting racism, but not sexual orientation.
Tell me if I told you that I was a Christian Adulterer, liar thief or Cannibal what counsel would you give me, and on what authority would you stand?
Ten10, I would like to address these points if I may:
"If I told you that I was a Christian Adulterer, liar thief or Cannibal what counsel would you give me, and on what authority would you stand?"
These things are not morally equivalent to homosexuality.Both adultery and thievery involve taking something that belongs to someone else. Cannibalism would involve taking someones life (as an interesting sidenote, one of the early criticisms of Christianity was that they were cannibals).
I would counsel you that these things are wrong due to the fact that you are taking things which do not belong to you (another's spouse, another's money, another's life).
I would stand on the Bible as well as moral theology and ethics.
Thanks for the welcome Kathy. I barely dabble in Spanish. :) "Chicadepearl" is a play on my given name. "I Say a Little Prayer", as I said, never actually answers the questions it presents. However, it crosses your point a bit. Some characters imply that homosexuality IS is sin, but no more or less a sin than alcoholism or extensive fabrication. Basically, they appear to believe that even if it is a sin, so what? Isn't that why Christ came? Do "born again believers" cease sinning as soon as they accept Christ as their Savior? In the end, the majority of the characters agree that whether it is a sin or not is irrelevant. They are all brothers and sisters in Christ and therefore have equal rights to worship at His throne. My pastor used an interesting allegory in his sermon Sunday. He said that he has never gone fishing and had to clean the fish before he caught it. Any fisherman would agree that's quite impossible. You catch the fish, then clean it and get it ready to eat. Why then do men assume that a person has to clean up (strip him/herself of all sins) before he/she can be "caught" by Christ? It's impossible! The cleansing can only come after one is hooked. I cannot/will not answer according to whether or not I personally feel that homosexuality is a sin. Frankly, only God knows that and He will reckon with each soul on His own terms. It's not up to me to decide. I've got enough to deal with in my own walk with Him. Refering back to "I Say a Little Prayer", my stand is this: it doesn't really matter. Even IF it is a sin, that doesn't mean they can't have a relationship with my God. I don't get to choose who He will accept into his fold. He's the boss.
Hey Kathy, it has taken me a while to get back to actually read your blog, and I can't even begin think of the time it would take me to read all the comments. I just wanted to thank you for a well thought out, well written blog as usual. I will not try to argue either side of this issue here, however you have given those of us who want to think about this issue from a wider point of view something to truly think about. I have always attempted to show Christ's love towards all those I meet, no mater, however I have always felt that "homosexual lifestyle" was sinful. I will attempt to rethink this issue now. Not sure if I will come out on the same end place as you, but you have prompted me to re-examine my thinking here. Anyway thanks again for a well written challenge for us to think about.
I guess the big issue revolves around whether God made them with a bent towards sexual desire for someone of the same sex. That is what I will need to think about at this point in time. peace
World, that says a lot for your character. Thank you for sharing your conviction.
Missionary, welcome. No, this is not a blog about adulterers and fornicators, but about orientation. Very different issues. You are right that we are all sinners saved by grace. Thanks for your comments.
Welcome back, Ten. If you are an adulterer, liar, thief, or cannibal, please don't share that with me, especially the cannibalism! The Bible, my life experiences, and my relationship with the Holy Spirit will show me that you need far greater spiritual and moral counsel than I can offer. Someone else will have to write the blog on cannabalism, as I am prejudiced against them! :) Thanks for your comments!
Thanks, Malleus!
Chica, thanks for sharing this different perspective.
Glenn, thank you for being courageous enough to comment here. Even if you decide to reject this entire perspective, you will be stronger for having listened and prayed. God bless and guide you as only He chooses!
Thank you Kathy for writing this blog, and for your pursuit of truth.
I have been of the opinion that homosexuality is a choice rather than a born trait.
As a Correctional Officer working in some of the Prisons of New York (long ago, and far away) I was able to observe some sexual behavior of some female inmates at one institution of all female inmates, and then, months later "catch up to them again" so to speak in a institution in western New York where they had some male, and some female inmates with a "visit fence" where they were able to keep their distance from the fence, but could verbally communicate with each other.
At the first institution, some of the inmates were definitely projecting a masculine attitude (spirit), while back at the 2nd institution, they had a chance to talk to male inmates the other side of the fence and they were so projecting a feminine attitude, that I hardly recognized them as the same person I had met at the 1st institution. That's one of the reasons I feel it's a choice. With that choice, not only does the attitude (spirit) of the individual follow suit, but it has a effect not just in the way they act, but physically also. Their body will change as the brain instructs it.
After reading your blog, and the comments, and trying to be "slow to speak" as to let The Lord direct my thoughts and not my "programming" I've come to a few points to share:
1). The Church as a whole has failed the Homosexual Individuals by being impotent of The Power of Almighty God to change them from their DNA out. I remember meditating on Mark 16:17-18 and searching in the Greek to fine different "levels" of the word "believe" but,...nope....you either believe, or you don't. Some can believe for Jesus their Savior, but never make it to believe Him for Lord, some can believe Him for Lord, but never make Him their Healer, some can believe all the previous, but can't get to believe Him for their Deliverer. You get the picture. You can not expect spiritual deliverance from head knowledge training alone.
2) God created sexuality as a good thing, evil perverts it to a bad thing. One of the reasons stoning was instituted by God was to kill off anything perverted so it would not infect further generations of people. A example of a spiritual infection: years ago, to see someone who wanted to distort their earlobe for the sake of good looks could only be found in National Geographic. Now, as that culture is so rapidly becoming Christian, the attitude(spirit) of big earlobe being beautiful is being welcomed in America's youth! (I'm not saying your not a Christian if you go for body piercing, just that that attitude is being kicked out of Africa, and coming here). When does a Homosexual attitude get instilled into a person? When they make a choice and open the door of their mind to it?.....or when their parents play around with perverted sexual activities and their children suffer unnatural sexual tendencies because of perverted DNA?
To conclude, I feel we deff. need to minister the truth to Homosexuals with the power of God to transform their lives from the DNA out. Not so much of the focus on the person, as the perverted attitude they are of.To change a above quote a bit, Love the person, Hate the attitude. Some, have knowingly, willfully, chosen perhaps because of insurmountable odds in their lives to walk with a Homosexual attitude, but they need to meet Jesus, and the Power of The Most High! Some, because of unclean spirits, and the unfair way that evil will harm our lives, and the lives of our children as well, will be born with un explained, un natural sexual tendencies. These also must be introduced to Jesus and the Power of The Most High God to be changed from the DNA out.
I'm not saying have to, I'MSHOUTINGGETTO...be changed.
I would not like to see the standard of God be lowerd because of His Church not walking in The Power available to it. Keep the standard, and let the Church raise to be the Glorious Church we are called to be in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
You know I have had something rolling around in my head for a few days. It is still largely unformed, but here goes: is it not possible that the gay community is more of a model of how the early Church was? I am not talking about in the sexual aspect, all sex was frowned upon in the early church. I am speaking more of the kinship model which the gay community follows. So often the accusation is thrown out that gay people are unnatural because the do not have children. Instead friends, lovers, community become family by collatarel adoption. In a similar manner we are adopted through Christ to God. I realize that this is a big jumble of diverse ideas, but I thought I'd just throw it out into the mix.
Hi Tom! Thank you for the kind tone of your comments! Although all I know about prisons is what I have read and heard, I am in agreement with you that, in the unique prison environment, homosexual activity is mostly a choice. In the men's prisons, I would guess it is a sexual outlet, given the unavailability of women, and in the women's prisons, maybe to establish power?? I doubt that many of those who so act out in prison would define their orientation as homosexual. What do you think? (My prison experience consists of one day of prison ministry and a tour of Alcatraz, which btw was extremely interesting!) :)
Malleus, I know the early church was misunderstood and thought to be practicing corporate sex acts and cannibalism. Were the most religious and pious Jewish leaders among their accusers? Is there any hint of this in Scripture? Do you know what the sources are that have provided this historic information? (I know I'm off your topic a little.)
No Kathy, I don't believe they were. The Jewish leaders thought them either as apostates just anotor another Jewish sect (like the Essenes).The pagans thought this because sex acts were a part of many of the mystery cults at the time. Since Christianity during this time (due to its persecuted nature) did things in secret, it was assumed that this was one of the reasons. I am not sure there Scripture discusses it, I would have to cross-check with a concordance.One historical reference may be found in the writings of Minucius Felix.
And now, as wickeder things advance more fruitfully, and abandoned manners creep on day by day, those abominable shrines of an impious assembly are maturing themselves throughout the whole world. Assuredly this confederacy ought to be rooted out and execrated. They know one another by secret marks and insignia, and they love one another almost before they know one another; everywhere also there is mingled among them a certain religion of lust, and they call one another promiscuously brothers and sisters, that even a not unusual debauchery may by the intervention of that sacred name become incestuous: it is thus that their vain and senseless superstition glories in crimes.
Nor, concerning these things, would intelligent report speak of things so great and various, and requiring to be prefaced by an apology, unless truth were at the bottom of it. I hear that they adore the head of an ass, that basest of creatures, consecrated by I know not what silly persuasion, a worthy and appropriate religion for such manners. Some say that they worship the genitals of their pontiff and priest, and adore the nature, as it were, of their common parent. I know not whether these things are false; certainly suspicion is applicable to secret and nocturnal rites; and he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men, that they may worship what they deserve.
Now the story about the initiation of young novices is as much to be detested as it is well known. An infant covered over with meal, that it may deceive the unwary, is placed before him who is to be stained with their rites: this infant is slain by the young pupil, who has been urged on as if to harmless blows on the surface of the meal, with dark and secret wounds. Thirstily - O horror! they lick up its blood; eagerly they divide its limbs. By this victim they are pledged together; with this consciousness of wickedness they are covenanted to mutual silence.
That's a good question Kathy, I would be of the opinion that in the female institutions, it would be more of relationship. Most of the fights were because of love triangles and jealousy. Most of the relationships were between two inmates. Where as in a man's institution, it could be more of power and intimidation, suppression, domination, than for relationship only.
The problem is, (and I never asked if anyone considered their sexual orientation different in prison than out of prison,) the opening of themselves to a spiritual "infection" while possibly pushing past (I think you called it) the "ick factor" they would have had outside of prison, but because of their new surroundings, choose to pervert their sexual orientation by practice first and not act according to the internal programming they feel. So by the time this now practicing Bi-sexual is released, they have been infected with a spirit that will not want to leave on it's own. This spirit, this new attitude will constantly demand to be able to manifest into the physical realm and not give their host much peace until it either hides because of not wanting to loose it's home, or gets cast out by the Power of God. The latter way is the only way to be free of it. For example, a spirit, or attitude of suicide will work on their host, whether from within, or without it doesnt matter much, using the assistance of other attitudes such as depression,alcoholism, to name just a couple out of many more, until they convince the individual they would be , and everyone else would be better off, if they would kill themselves. It's more of a sin of the mind than a sin of the heart if a person follows through with it. In my opinion, I think once the individual has, say, stepped off a bridge, and can't get back, the spirit of suicide will leave, and the person no longer wants to die in their last seconds on earth. A perverted sexual spirit, if they have a right, or access, or no spiritual protection holding them back, will work on a persons soulish realm until the spirit is sent away, or the person gives in and manifests this attitude into the physical realm, which, then another unclean spirit will jump on the bandwagon and it's called condemnation. The spirit will push you to do it, then condem you for doing it. This process may take months, years, or even a lifetime of harassment before it ever manifests if at all into the physical realm. The unclean spirit don't mind, they got a lot of time on their hands. My point being, if a person is not oriented that way naturally, they will be infected with an attitude that will want them to continue that way afterward. Once infected, the details of how, or why the "sins of the fathers" pass onto or into, the children I am not sure, but that could be the reason some people are oriented differently from birth.
Did you see the movie August Rush? About the couple both at the height of their musical carriers and in a "one night stand " made a baby who was a child prodigy with musical talent?
Using this movie as an example, if they had no more children until they were older and caught up in the management and busniness natures of their son's career, and then had another child, would that one be gifted as a musician, or as a businessman? Does the child of a rape victim have a orientation to rape also? I don't have the answer for those questions. Just speculating on a possible reason of sexual orientation from birth.
Although no Christian should harm another, it is not the same thing to just allow a sin to continue. We are to admonish one to another. Yes, the ACTION of a homosexual union is a sin. And Yes, having homosexual tendencies/desires is not the basis of this "lifestyle". No one is what their sex drive is, and can still be considered one changed unto the Lord. In other words, just because I am heterosexual, does not mean that my life, art, music, and employment are all about this. It, my small and humble life is for the Lord, by His Grace. While yet still a sinner, He loved me, without my deserving it, and called me to Him. God is Good! This can be the same for any with a desire to murder, commit arson, rape, do violence, tell falsehoods, and even mate with one of the same gender. In time, with the help of the Holy Spirit, these vices subside and go away. Sex does not HAVE to be part of one's life.
The verses you put up, and your little comments beside, belays an unhealthy view of the Holiness of Scripture for you. I do not doubt your sincerity, nor your desire to help the downtrodden, please God and become Christ like. But you are making a mockery of His Word, as well as denying such a critical part of the life of Jesus. He healed those and said, "Go and sin no more". Not, "I have healed you, PARTY ON!" Christ even tells us He is EXclusive, not inclusive. Brother against brother, come to set apart. The entire of the Old Covenant was to set a people apart for holiness. This was not abolished by Christ, but fulfilled, meaning the Spirit of the Law remains (homosexuality is wrong both in act and conscious thought). Please, take more time on praying and meditating on both the Holiness and Sovereignty of the Almighty. Re-read your Old Testament, not as some historical oddity, but as God's preparing His young nation for the world that lies ahead.
I do not like to disagree with a sister who claims Christ as her Savior, but in this instance, you are leading other astray and as Paul warned, "Will cause your brother to stumble." May the Lord Bless you and keep you. May you be His in Paradise at the Judgement of the world. As I am, and will remain, a servant of the Prince of Peace, I bid you,
I had a lot to say, but Tom and Brtom said it much better than I would have and I agree with them. I will say this, as a child I "wondered if I was gay". I drove those thoughts out of my mind but not the pervision spirit. I began other twisted and perverse acts for the next 30 years until I received the LORD and HIS fullness of glory and mercy. We all chose what we do and believe and that goes deep to the "root". A root grows up little trees that lead to rebilion, disbelief, pervision of the truth and spirit that leds us astray. Beleive me, I knew those "spirits" well and know what they can lead to. If you had come out of that kind of life, you would understand much more where you are incorrect. Be glad this is not a lesson you learned firsthand. Forgivenmuch
Interesting post from Felix, MD...does make you wonder how things evolve in our culture...as much as things change, some things stay the same...
Kathy, still a great blog with some great discussion...
BTW, Tom, disagreement, when worked properly, helps us all to grow, so it isn't always a bad thing to disagree...I would actually say it is a healthy thing when two can disagree on a subject, yet agree to walk together.
This has been around for a few years, but it makes some good points, and does so with a bit of humor:
A scene at City Hall in San Francisco:
"Next."
"Good morning. We want to apply for a marriage license."
"Names?"
"Tim and Jim Jones."
"Jones? Are you related? I see a resemblance."
"Yes, we're brothers."
"Brothers? You can't get married."
"Why not? Aren't you giving marriage licenses to same gender couples?"
"Yes, thousands. But we haven't had any siblings. That's incest!"
"Incest? No, we are not gay."
"Not gay? Then why do you want to get married?"
"For the financial benefits, of course. And we do love each other. Besides, we don't have any other prospects."
"But we're issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples who've been denied equal protection under the law. If you are not gay, you can get married to a woman."
"Wait a minute. A gay man has the same right to marry a woman as I have, but just because I'm straight doesn't mean I want to marry a woman. I want to marry Jim."
"And I want to marry Tim, Are you going to discriminate against us just because we are not gay?"
"All right, all right. I'll give you your license. Next."
"Hi. We are here to get married."
"Names?"
"John Smith, Jane James, Robert Green, and June Johnson."
"Who wants to marry whom?"
"We all want to marry each other."
"But there are four of you!"
"That's right. You see, we're all bisexual. I love Jane and Robert, Jane loves me and June, June loves Robert and Jane, and Robert loves June and me. All of us getting married together is the only way that we can express our sexual preferences in a marital relationship."
"But we've only been granting licenses to gay and lesbian couples."
"So you're discriminating against bisexuals!"
"No, it's just that, well, the traditional idea of marriage is that it's just for couples."
"Since when are you standing on tradition?"
"Well, I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere."
"Who says? There's no logical reason to limit marriage to couples. The more the better. Besides, we demand our rights! The mayor says the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law. Give us a marriage license!"
"All right, all right. Next."
"Hello, I'd like a marriage license."
"In what names?"
"David Deets."
"And the other man?"
"That's all. I want to marry myself."
"Marry yourself? What do you mean?"
"Well, my psychiatrist says I have a dual personality, so I want to marry the two together. Maybe I can file a joint income-tax return."
"That does it! I quit!! You people are making a mockery of marriage!"
Malleus, very interesting quote! Was Minucius Felix writing of opinions he had witnessed or the opinion of someone in particular? Surely, if he was a Christian apologist, these were not his own views?? Thank you for posting this! I'm enjoying learning!
Tom, you make a good point that anyone who opens himself up to any type of sinful behavior has opened to door to future temptation. This seems a valid picture of the prison situation you have described, as well as any casual sexual activity. It does not speak, however, as far as I can see, to the issue of sexual orientation.
BroTom, Welcome. Is a gay man's "life, art, music, and employment" all about his sexuality?
Forgivenmuch, welcome to MyChurch! I agree with you that we all choose what we do (i.e. behavior). We don't, however, choose what we are (gender, race, physical features, etc.)
PARoss, I have not seen that story before, but its aim seems to be to perpetuate ignorance.
Kathy, remember I wrote "God created sexuality as a good thing, evil perverts it into a bad thing".
As to the sexual orientation of people, because of choice, or sins of the fathers, or just plain evil does not fight fairly, the voice of reason inside a persons head may not be their voice they hear.
A infected person does not hear the spirit say "you are attracted to same sex people". A infected person would hear, " hummm that's nice, I like..........". It would not be a very successful infection it the spirit spoke in first person to the host! The host would say I'm hearing voices in my head speaking to me, and disregard them.
I tried to address orientation in both the above posts, but I guess I was unclear.
The perceived orientation is the perversion before the manifestation of any actions outwardly.
God wants to oust the perverted voice, repair DNA if ness. reprogram the mind, and fill the heart with a Holy Voice.
Many are the soldiers who have fought on the front lines of battlefields who have died, get wounded, have nightmares that last a lifetime, or get a different perspective on war because of the battles they were engaged in. The people in the motor pool do not usually get shot at very often.
"The church as a whole has failed the Homosexual individuals by being impotent of The Power of Almighty God to change them from their DNA out." Please Forgive Us Father for the damage we've done.
"You can't expect spiritual deliverance from head knowledge training alone." Open our eyes Dear Father God, that we may see this battle from your perspective, we know our weapons of our warfare are not to be carnal, help us to use your spiritual weapons you can equip us with.
"Judge not, lest you be judged" of the same thing you've judged others with,(otherwise how could you be judged for it, unless you also fall prey to it?).
A Judge, behind the bench does not make up the laws( or at least are not supposed to). but they match the crime to the law already established, and match a standard punishment that will fit the crime as other Judges have done.
Kathy, I , by the Grace of God do not want to be prejudiced in anyway, but also do not want to sacrifice a standard that my Heavenly Father has established just because "the norm" has more failures than victories.(which I do not know if this is the case here or not).
This is truly a "monster" of a problem we have to deal with. I plead The Blood Of My Lord Jesus over my self, my family, my home, my properties,as I go to battle.
In the New Covenant, the only things we have a "commandment" to follow from the old testament is to refrain from eating things with the blood in them, don't drink the blood of anything other than Jesus during communion, because "the life is in the blood", and refrain from sexual sins,.....that's all if I remember correctly with out looking them up. Why did God want these things to be passed on to the Christian Church? Because He wants us to be free of these monster problems in our society.
By laying with another and through I'm not sure what means, God says you become "one "with them. By the laying on of hands Spiritual impartation can move from one, to another, I thank My Lord that greater is He that is within Me than he that is in the world. Yes, it is written just like that.
I feel emboldened by The Holy Spirit not to mince my words, but let God's word come forth.
The Love of God is to protect, keep safe, a people who He loves so greatly, it grieves His heart to see them walk in such self destructive patterns just to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. He wants the best for all peoples, and that is why He gives us boundaries, and guidelines, and corrections if ness. to cause us to be a healthy, happy society naturally. He wants us to be whole, Spirit Soul and Body! We cannot as individuals, or corruptly as a society do that unless we humble ourselves before our Almighty Maker and do it His way, every way, all the way, anything less which is a compromise on our part, will invoke a very natural problem, a less than perfect area in our individual lives, and corporatly as a society. He does not expect us to do it perfectly, that's why Grace, Love, and Forgiveness is to abound in our lives as individuals, and corporate as a society. He does expect us to believe Him though, with all of His Power and Might, to make the crooked places straight, and the lame whole. The "rights" that the Homosexual community is calling for is the voice behind the attitude wanting to be able to be manifested into the physical world unchecked, so that it may pervert more and more of society and our churches. I will not compromise, and I do not need to apologize for that stand, as strong as it may be, we need strength now.
Jehovah is God, let all others fall on their face before Him, because He is a Awsome God!
Kathy, Felix being one of the earliest of Christian apologists, was writing this piece as a way to refute many of the claims (such as the one detailed above in the Octavius) leveled against Christians by pagans.
Interesting "joke" Pa. What I find interesting, except for the last one, were all a part (in some form or the other) of our Christian historical and liturgical traditions.(Adelphopoiesis Rite in the Orthodox tradition, Ordo ad Fratres Faciendum in the Latin tradition) for the marriage of "brothers" (really collateral adoption), and the practice of concubinage (of both laity and priests) which existed until the late Middle Ages. (though I suppose one could argue that a concubine is not the same as a wife).
Kathy, In your essay you asked, What is the Gay Agenda? and said that it was merely that Gay people want to be understood and respected, which is what everyone wants. So, what's the big deal?
Actually, there is a Gay Agenda, and much of it has already been accomplished.
The 1972 Gay Rights Platform Platform created at the National Coalition of Gay Organizations Convention held in Chicago in 1972 FEDERAL LEVEL:
1. Amend all federal Civil Rights Acts, other legislation and government controls to prohibit discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations and public services.
2. Issuance by the President of an executive order prohibiting the military from excluding for reasons of their sexual orientation, persons who of their own volition desire entrance into the Armed Services; and from issuing less-than-fully-honorable discharges for homosexuality; and the upgrading to fully honorable all such discharges previously issued, with retroactive benefits.
3. Issuance by the President of an executive order prohibiting discrimination in the federal civil service because of sexual orientation, in hiring and promoting; and prohibiting discriminations against homosexuals in security clearances.
4. Elimination of tax inequities victimizing single persons and same-sex couples.
5. Elimination of bars to the entry, immigration and naturalization of homosexual aliens.
6. Federal encouragement and support for sex education courses, prepared and taught by gay women and men, presenting homosexuality as a valid, healthy preference and lifestyle as a viable alternative to heterosexuality.
7. Appropriate executive orders, regulations and legislation banning the compiling, maintenance and dissemination of information on an individual's sexual preferences, behavior, and social and political activities for dossiers and data banks.
8. Federal funding of aid programs of gay men's and women's organizations designed to alleviate the problems encountered by Gay women and men which are engendered by an oppressive sexist society.
9. Immediate release of all Gay women and men now incarcerated in detention centers, prisons and mental institutions because of sexual offense charges relating to victimless crimes or sexual orientation; and that adequate compensation be made for the physical and mental duress encountered; and that all existing records relating to the incarceration be immediately expunged.
STATE LEVEL:
1. All federal legislation and programs enumerated in Demands 1, 6, 7, 8, and 9 above should be implemented at the State level where applicable.
2. Repeal of all state laws prohibiting private sexual acts involving consenting persons; equalization for homosexuals and heterosexuals for the enforcement of all laws.
3. Repeal all state laws prohibiting solicitation for private voluntary sexual liaisons; and laws prohibiting prostitution, both male and female.
4. Enactment of legislation prohibiting insurance companies and any other state-regulated enterprises from discriminating because of sexual orientation, in insurance and in bonding or any other prerequisite to employment or control of one's personal demesne (property).
5. Enactment of legislation so that child custody, adoption, visitation rights, foster parenting, and the like shall not be denied because of sexual orientation or marital status.
6. Repeal of all state laws prohibiting transvestism and cross-dressing.
7. Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent.
8. Repeal of all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into a marriage unit; and the extension of legal benefits to all persons who cohabit regardless of sex or numbers.
PA, although I did not carefully read your entire post, a quick scan looked to me like it was defining the "agenda" exactly as I did. Gay people want to be treated with respect and equality. Respect and equality, if not active, are as empty as the Christian love I have felt in most of the comments on this blog. Words are merely symbols, and until the concepts they represent come alive, they are vacuous. To say to someone "I love you" while you stir up animosity and pit sides against them, to say "I love you" while questioning the salvation of a fellow Christian, to say "I love you" while making snide and hurtful comments behind his/her back, is hypocrisy at its ugliest. If we cannot even actively love and respect a Christian brother or sister with whom we have laughed, cried, prayed, and shared our deepest selves for over a year, because we disagree on a social issue, how can we possibly actively love gay people, and how much love do they feel when we say we love and respect them?
I just watched For the Bible Tells Me So, the video I mentioned in a July 25 comment (see trailer there). Very powerful, and recommended to all Christians on either side of this issue. A part of the blurb on the back of the video:
Through the experiences of five very normal Christian American families - including those of former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson - we discover how people of faith handle the realization of having a gay child or family member.
Offering healing, clarity and understanding to anyone caught in the crosshairs of scripture and sexual identity . . .
In the video Kathy recommends (above, Why are people gay?) there is absolutely no reference to Scripture, a typical liberal avoidance technique. The idea that people choose to be gay is refuted in the video by suggesting that, while people do choose their sexual partners, people do not choose their attractions. Apparently, we are slaves to our attractions in that we cannot, and should not, go against our natural attractions, our desires.
But, wait a minute? Aren't we all attracted to various kinds of sin? Don't we sinners prefer sin? Yes, we do. And we are all sinners, and we all have our favorite sins to which we are naturally attracted. But according to the video explanation (above), it's okay to give in to our natural attractions, our sins. Why? Well, because they are natural (biological), of course. The implication is that God created people to be the way they are, so if God gave you the natural attraction to same sex sex, then go for it. It's godly because that's the way God created you.
What this explanation avoids is all reference to sin -- and understandably so because if God created us to be sinners, we have an even more serious problem. Of course, if you know the Bible story, you can see that the problem is sin, which did not originate in God, but which God has ordained for His own purposes. And if you keep reading you will see that sin is trumped by Jesus Christ. It's a complex story, but most six-year-olds can understand it.
Am I picking on Kathy here? No, I'm illustrating the larger problem of blindness (2 Peter 1:9), which is not a function of intelligence but of perception. People only see what they naturally see unless they are supernaturally graced to see otherwise (John 9:39-41). Am I picking on gays? No, I'm including them in a larger category of concern. For instance, if someone is naturally attracted to taking whatever she wants from whoever has it, then should she just give in to her natural attraction and become a thief because of her natural attraction (not to mention that God created her that way)? No, that's absurd. But why does is the same principle not absurd when it applies to homosexuality? Somehow, gays want to believe that their sin deserves special treatment, probably because they think that it is about "love." But the Bible says that homosexual sin is not different than other sin, and therefore it must be treated like other sin.
And as for "love" -- we as a culture have been so captured by the Romantic idea of love (Romanticism) that the biblical definition of love being a commitment and not a feeling seems to be "naturally" wrong. People look past verses like: 2Jn 1:6: "And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it." Love is obedience to God's commandments, not the indulgence of one's natural desires.
Possibly the most serious problem in Christianity today is that we depend on other Christians to tell us how to think rather than watching, reading, and praying on our own. And secondarily, when we do watch and read, we do so with our preconceived notions, believing we already have all the answers. The truth is, in this life, we never have all the answers, or even all the right questions.
Kathy, What you said here is true: "Possibly the most serious problem in Christianity today is that we depend on other Christians to tell us how to think...," but the rest of your sentence belies your commitment to God's biblical truth. And the guy on the gay christian video is doing exactly that -- telling people what to think -- and how to think (but he doesn't ever consult Scripture)! And what are Gephardt and Robinson doing in their book? Telling people what to think! You keep pointing us to resources that do exactly what you then tell us not to do!
You are so far off base here that it's laughable, except that it isn't funny. You claim that in this life "we never have all the answers" and usually fail to ask the right questions. I will take this as your confession. But it is not the confession of a faithful Christian! Christians do not look to themselves for the answers to life's persistent questions. Christians look to Scripture, and confess that Scripture does in fact have all of the answers we need. To confess less is to confess the inadequacy of Scripture. You claim to love Scripture, but then undermine it by telling us that it is not able to answer the fundamental questions of humanity, of which issues regarding human sexuality surely qualify.
Please understand that I am not your enemy, but your friend in Christ. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy" (Proverbs 27:6). As a professed minister of the gospel you are held to a higher standard.
You are tenaciously defending something here in your blog, but not being a homosexual yourself (right?) you are not defending your own actions (at least not this particular sin). I suspect that you are defending a perceived underdog. Like a mother protecting her children, you may be trying to protect perceived innocent victims of natural desire (people you know and love) -- but more importantly you are defending a particular theological understanding. At some level you are undoubtedly protecting your own natural desires of one sort or another. Don't we all!
This thing is about much more than petty homosexual indiscretions, it's about understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ. Your misplaced defensiveness suggests a blatant misreading of Scripture that permeates most of what you think, say and do -- and particularly what you convey to others about the gospel. At best you are committed to apostasy, from which you may recover, and at worst, heresy, from which you may not. What heresy? The suggestion that there are some sins that don't require God's forgiveness, or the heresy of calling good what God calls evil. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).
It doesn't take a scholar to know that no Christian church in history ever blessed homosexuality -- until recently. Such modern churches are not increasing in faithfulness, but devolving further in sin. The fact that history provides the traditional position does not make it wrong. Christianity is not against tradition, it is against the traditions of men when they are substituted for God's Word, which happened in 1972 when the United Church of Christ ordained William R. Johnson as the first open and practicing homosexual. Johnson, recently retired, has worked tirelessly his entire career in the ministry with the considerable resources of the UCC national office to promote the acceptance of homosexuality in both church(es) and state. He has been phenomenally successful because the substantial resources of the gay community, including their blackmail capabilities, have been thrown into the effort. Gay people are often very sensitive, talented and wealthy because of it.
Defending the underdog? Hardly. Homosexuality has always lurked in the shadows of wealth and power -- the centers of worldly sin, i.e. Hollywood and Washington, D.C. As you know, if you have read the modern literature of sexuality studies, that sexual gratification is about power, not love. Sex is only justified and redeemed by God through Christ in biblical marriage, and only by God through Christ. And that is what homosexuals are after. Like all sinners, they want God's approval for their sin. They think they can get it by popular vote!
You may be the unwitting victim of one of a marketing scheme, of depending on others to tell you want to think about this issue. But you have been called to defend Christ, and that is where reconciliation can be found. Not everyone will submit to God's reconciliation, will you? I'm not out to embarrass you, but to point out your sin. You are broadcasting it publicly, so I'm responding publicly. That is what preachers do because redemption follows conviction of sin, and where there is no conviction of sin, there can be no redemption.
The preaching model here is Peter's sermon where he cut his listeners to the heart because of their sin (Acts 2:37). Later Peter told the authorities that they "must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). And I understand your outrage with me. "When they (the authorities Peter was talking to) heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them" (Act 5:33).
Again, please understand that I am not your enemy, but your friend in Christ. Can anyone help me out here?
PARoss, if you knew anything about me at all, and surely if you were my "friend" as you claim, you would know that I continually advocate hearing opposing viewpoints. That is a step in thinking for ourselves. Not so we will automatically adopt the other's beliefs, but to gain an understanding of all sides of an issue. It is obvious that this blog disturbs you. Please feel free to ignore it and more on.
Ellen Degeneres on a tragic Feb. 2008 hate crime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcMEL3_YsVI&feature=related Children are not born with prejudice. Prejudice has to be taught. Where does a young boy like this killer acquire such a response to a simple life situation? What if it had been a girl he wasn't interested in that asked to be his valentine? Would that have led to death? Does something inside us say "Well, he deserved it. He was gay"?
It doesn't take a scholar to know that no Christian church in history ever blessed homosexuality.
Really?
Office for Same-Sex Union
i.
The priest shall place the holy Gospel on the Gospel stand
and they that are to be joined together place their right
hands on it, holding lighted candles in their left hands.
Then shall the priest cense them and say the following:
ii.
In peace we beseech Thee, O Lord.
For heavenly peace, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
For the peace of the entire world, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
For this holy place, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
That these thy servants, N. and N., be
sanctified with thy spiritual benediction, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
That their love abide without offense or scandal
all the days of their lives, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
That they be granted all things needed for salvation and
godly enjoyment of life everlasting, we beseech Thee, O Lord.
That the Lord God grant unto them unashamed faithfulness
and sincere love , we beseech Thee, O Lord....
Have mercy on us, O God.
"Lord, have mercy" shall be said three times.
iii
The priest shall say:
Forasmuch as Thou, O Lord and Ruler, art merciful and
loving, who didst establish humankind after thine image and
likeness, who didst deem it meet that thy holy apostles
Philip and Bartholomew be united, bound one unto the other
not by nature but by faith and the spirit. As Thou didst
find thy holy martyrs Serge and Bacchus worthy to be united
together , bless also these thy
servants, N. and N., joined together not by the bond of
nature but by faith and in the mode of the spirit
, granting unto them peace and love
and oneness of mind. Cleanse from their hearts every stain
and impurity and vouchsafe unto them to love one other without hatred and without scandal all the
days of their lives, with the aid of the Mother of God and
all thy saints, forasmuch as all glory is thine.
iv.
Another Prayer for Same-Sex Union
O Lord Our God, who didst grant unto us all those things
necessary for salvation and didst bid us to love one another
and to forgive each other our failings, bless and
consecrate, kind Lord and lover of good, these thy servants
who love each other with a love of the spirit and have come into
this thy holy church to be blessed and consecrated. Grant
unto them unashamed fidelity and sincere love
and as Thou didst vouchsafe unto thy
holy disciples and apostles thy peace and love, bestow them
also on these, O Christ our God, affording to them all those
things needed for salvation and life eternal. For Thou art
the light and the truth and thine is the glory.
v.
Then shall they kiss the holy Gospel and the priest and one
another, and conclude.(the same rite or one similar to it is found in about 70 manuscripts in various Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches for almost a millenia)
Kathy, So you teach that Christianity is a matter of learning all of the various opinions that people have about it. Right? That does seem to be what you are doing, except that you deny the validity of God's opinion. The fact that you believe that "God didn't write the Bible" is surely a violation of your ordination vows, and more importantly shows a failure to understand the doctrine of the Trinity -- how God is able to inhabit His people through regeneration.
A better question to ask is whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God. I imagine that you would answer: Word of God? Yes. Infallible? No (as if God is not able to adequately express Himself; anything less than infallible is not adequate for God). As you said, infallibility is a divisive concept. In fact, the idea of all of the creeds of the church is to divide out the heretics. That's why the church embraces creeds and doctrines. (By the way, the Bible does have errors, but they don't effect its infallibility. Just as Scripture interprets Scripture, Scripture corrects Scripture.)
Your logical disconnect is that you continually tell people to look to other people, to look at all sides to "balance" things out. God teaches a good balance between heaven and hell, between right and wrong. Right? And then you tell people not to look to other people to determine what they think. But that's all you are doing here! I'm just trying to say that the answers people seek are not found in their own opinions or in anyone else's -- not mine, and surely not yours (by your own confession)! Rather, the answers are found in Scripture. That's my opinion.
Here's another place you are in error: In fact, children are born with prejudice. It's called sin, and that is the very thing that you are not seeing. Not seeing it is the prejudice that favors sin. We are all born full of what we call natural desires or preferences, and God calls sin. It is the denial of original sin that qualifies you as a Liberal because that is a consistent characteristic of Liberals of every stripe.
"And Elijah came near to all the people and said, 'How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.'" (1 Kings 18:21).
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.'" (Rev 3:13-16). This is the substance of your balance.
Why do you want me to move on? Aren't you concerned for my soul? If you really want to expose people to opposite sides of the argument, then you should welcome my comments with open arms because I am presenting the opposite view. You and your readers should carefully consider my arguments. But you want to eschew me! You never respond to my arguments. Rather, you just brush me aside. Have you noticed that? What about gaining an understanding of all sides? Perhaps you think that you already understand me, that I'm just another fundamentalist Christian bigot. Think again, gurl.
Malleus, Well, I guess you showed me. That nails it. You must be a real scholar, knowing all that arcane, secret stuff! Cool hood! Who are you hiding from? Double life issues?
PA, don't be patronizing and engage in ad hominem attacks.It cheapens your argument.
The rite that is posted is hardly arcane or secret.Since was a church rite and included in many manuscripts and several liturgical sources.
You claimed that:"no Christian church in history ever blessed homosexuality."
I was attempting to show that the claim was to a degree false, as this rite (as well as a corresponding rite in the Roman Catholic tradition) shows. There were rituals that blessed same-sex unions, and if one were to compare them to the sacrament of marriage (at least from a liturgical sense) they are almost identical.
Am I saying that at present that Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches approve of homosexuality? No, but that does not mean that in the past the same held true.The fact that these are rites that which were performed in a church, by a priest, in the presence of Christ would seem to indicate the opprobrium that you are suggesting was not present.The issue has become far more politicized now, which I think is the reason for both Churches rather negative responses.
Hello, nice to meet you. I am new to this site. All I have to say is, Praise God and Glory to His name! I have met someone who knows how to read and understand God's Word. Kathy you have done a wonderful job explaining the text's.
My daughter, myself and another friend of ours have been discussing many of the very passages of scripture you have quoted here.
I am the mother of three grown children. My oldest son is gay.
He had a very hard time as a teenager. He tried to do the "right"
thing and date girls. It was not in him and I knew it. I just did not
know how to approach the subject with him at that time.
After he attempted suicide I decided I better get to talking and
quick! Once he found out that I accepted him, "Just as he is"
he was fine. All of my family does not agree with homosexuality,
but we have been fortunate in the fact that even those that do
not completely understand, have still stood by my son and
shown him love.
He has been with the same partner for 11 years now. His
partner is as much my son-in-law as my daughters husband
is. No. they are not "legally" married, but what is marriage? A coming together of two people before God committing themselves to one another.
Kathy, this continues to be interesting...and as I see more comments like that of Pasha's above, I see more reason to have this discussion. May I go back to an earlier comment I left? I said this:
If we truly want to believe that everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally, then that list has to be applied to each of our lives. If so, then I am the chief of sinners (where have we heard that?). If so, then who amongst us can be saved? We are not saved by keeping the law, but only through His grace. My point here is that EVEN IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WE ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. HIS BLOOD, HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION PAID THE PRICE FOR ALL OUR SINS, PAST AND FUTURE! IT IS ONLY BY HIS GRACE THAT WE CAN BE SAVED. One sin is not greater than any other sin. They all separate us from God. Praise God we are not measured on the basis of our ability to keep the law!
My point here is that there is no excuse for any person's sexual behavior nor their gluttony nor their pride. We all fall so short of the glory of God.
A scripture comes to mind today:
3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
Some of the comments I have read here communicate hatred toward one another. If I sin in my sexuality or in my eating, am I any less a son of God? Some of the comments here would make me think that some people honestly believe that.
There is so much about God and His creation we do not understand...so much to learn and to grow...I continually pray that He opens our eyes to love Him as we should...including me who clearly can not live up to the law...Selah.
Malleus, Jesus Himself was not the kind and gentle guy that He is too often portrayed to be.
Our world is not far from that of Isaiah, "Their land is filled with idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their own fingers have made. So man is humbled, and each one is brought low -- do not forgive them! Enter into the rock and hide in the dust from before the terror of the LORD, and from the splendor of his majesty. The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled, and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the LORD of hosts has a day against all that is proud and lofty, against all that is lifted up--and it shall be brought low" (Isaiah 2:8-12).
"But she came and knelt before him, saying, 'Lord, help me.' And he answered, 'It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs'" (Matthew 15:25-26). Jesus called this poor woman a dog, which at the time was quite an insult. He said that He had been sent to the lost Jewish sheep and that she was nothing but a Gentile dog, implying that His message was not for her. Of course, she proved herself to be "of the Lord." And that was the point.
Christians are so used to being coddled by one another and their pastors that they think that that was Jesus' primary method of dealing with people.
It's okay to call my books tedious, but you really should read one first. Otherwise you are speaking of what you do not know. If you find Scripture tedious, you will indeed find my books tedious. They do nothing but examine Scripture.
Nor is He the person you are portraying Him to be.
The passage that you quote from Matthew appears to show Christ being corrected by the Syro-Phonecian woman. She asked Him to expand his message. You should take that lesson to heart when you decide to present such a narrow image of Christ as well as God's grace.
My apologies, my observations about your book being tedious were based upon the fact that they are self-published (which in all liklihood you couldn't get a publisher interested), your blurbs for the books, and your I-papers. But still it was wrong of me to say they were tediuos without reading it. E-mail me pdf of one of them and I will read it, and post a review of it.
I would agree with you Voice. We tend to become so tunnel-visioned on this particular issue. I keep thinking of the whole McDonald's boycott. People didn't seem to have a problem that McDonald's was contributing to the vice of gluttony or being very poor stewards of the Earth. They just kept bringing their church groups in there to scarf down the Big Macs. But let them give some money to a gay group, and they become the anti-Christ.
After about a year and a half on this site, and 79 blogs, I just blocked someone for the first time ever, and deleted his two most vicious posts. Please Christian brothers and sisters, disagree with me all you want, but do so without personally attacking other precious human beings. If we have all knowledge, but have not love for one another, we are nothing but a sounding gong.
being gay is a sin it says so in the bible it says you cart get the kingdom of god if u r homosexual or if u gssip ect and if u say its fine then u r basicly saying some of the bible is not true god dont want any1 to not go to heaven but god still loves them but they have fallen short of the glory of god and they need to repent and change there ways then they can get to heaven
Kathy, Thank you for the warm welcome! I am very glad to be here. I realize this is a very hot topic to alot of people.
Habakkuk, I must say, with all due respect, if we are to depend on our own good works to get us into Heaven, then what was the point of The Cross? God knew we could not do it on our own.
Hi Habakkuk! Welcome! Your profile is set to private, but I'm guessing by your text language that you are young. May you continue to grow in Christ! Glad you're here!
Way too much Talk & very little said ! [K.I.S.S.] Stands for [Keep it Simple Stupid]
Women Speak 7000 words per Day ....Men 2000....that could be why they should not be Teaching? Just a thought. hahaha.....I Love Woman Teachers.
(( THE BIBLE ))
((( JUST ANOTHER BOOK ?? )))
God - Is Not a Author of Confussion, but You say The Bible is Not Accurate - Your Point of View is That it is Just another Book. Correct Me, But You sight The Some OLD Testament LAW' sin a mocking way ....rather than Line upon line.
I have a parable of a TV set... You can not remove a single transistor from you TV set and expect it to function at all & How about 10, 20, 30, 40 transitors???
So Transistors are Bible Verses & You [in order] to have ....BALANCE ...That is What Wholly-Ness is BALANCE !! You must let Scripture explain Scripture. Like Putting a Big Jig-Saw Puzzle together.
There are many Paradox's ......& Contradictions.....NONE.
(( Purpose of LAW ))
Well That is all to show The Knowledge of Good & Evil.....Transgressers of the Law receive Punishment & SEPARATION From God.
Sins.....whatever it may be.... Murder, theft ..on & on ....then just become a matter of opinion rather than what The Word of God clearly says.
Rights or Wrongs are Now Authored by anyone ..You write [a Bible for You] & I will.. Write [ a Bible for Me].
Nothing is Absolute ....all is just relative ....if it FEELS ?? Good ????????
I will be a God onto myself - I am writing the Word of God ...see My Bible I wrote is as Valid as Yours. SO.....? Anybody who wrote a [book] Their BOOK is as perfect as what we know to be The Holy Scriptures??? Complete Nonsense. Either God is Wise enough to Author ..a BOOK ..The One & Only Book [the book that reads], the reading of many books will just weary You Silly.
Had in Mind .... The Keep it Simple [ K.I.S.S.] idea ?? To Commune with Mankind?
So God's People Live By...... Faith !! & NOT by SIGHT.... or......((( FEELINGS ))) !!!!
I am sorry but if I say ..I have These, or Had These, FEELINGS......Like To Kill, committ suicide, Steal, Have a ABORTION, RAPE This Beautiful Girl That with My Eyes I Just can not help myself from having these FEELINGS....
.THEN Put in Check to that Standard in His Word ! GOD SAID IT THAT SETTLES IT ! & Not YOUR FEELINGS unless You are writing Your Own Bible????????
If in My Bible I write for myself RAPE, MURDER is Not SIN....or a...(((( A CRIME )))) Can I go perform Rape ??? In a Civilized Culture???
Yeah just let them ...all that are in JAIL ..Prisoners Live in Your Neighborhood...turn them all loose !! All those Criminals .......OK......Their ....Crimes.
Make.....Ordain Drug Addicts as Pastors.....Pretty Silly... HUH ... DAH.
Now The More Bad Life Experiences You May have Had do NOT & Will Never Justify I DID IT.......... BE-Cause, The CAUSE or Experience gave Me Feelings.
Example..... Steeling......Some Person Took Your Bicycle so You in turn Steel a Bicycle ??? TEMPTATIONS ????? ALL ((( FEELINGS )) That is The Devils BALL PARK.
He The Devil....has NO POWER He has to Get volunteers who through FEELINGS will do his works or His Will. Then You are abusing the POWER GOD Gave You.
If You had a BAD UN-Godly Marriage to a Non-Christian Man.....That does not become excuse to Sin. Now The World of Men That are Satans Gem's that are JERKS self center Trash.
May become a good valid sense of reason to be understood by & with a understanding & sensitive Person......is likely to be FEMALE.
I Love My Children but I do not have INCEST !!
So You picked this Devil up in College......The Temptation The Feeling to Let Go & say OK. Did God Really say???....Making The Idea of Be-ing Gay as Higher Than The Bible.
You did not care anymore......after all YOU had a Bad Experience a Bad Marriage so why not. Without Reasoning with God You Reasoned with Satan The Master of Deception.
After all Those Gay feelings are Good Feelings right ???????? You fell into the trap & went for it just like the common thief steels.
If We as Humans follow just ....(((((( FEELINGS )))) Senses We are Just ANIMALS !!
Now The Church World is full of FAKE & PHONEY Jerks also. Scam Artists, Cons, Spinning everything into & for Personal Gains of sorts.
So unless You Promote The Bible Completely.......the alternative is only to say I know Better, I wrote myself a Bible ..... That is Satanic to Rank Yourself above any authorities. Yet God does want us to be One with Him in His Power & Glory But Not Above Him. So.....a Spirit Person has the Pupose to fix, heal, repair, restore the lost. Jesus said there are no Male or Female In Heaven but they are all like the Angels. So There is a Paradox. If You are serving Gods Higher Purposes in life and are not carnal minded. Then this whole issue becomes somewhat minor.
This issue is in need of addressing because of the stone throwing condeming tendancies
harsh, Mean Abusive People.
So are Mean, Harsh, Abusive People in Sin ??
So in the Same way please just consider only things that make this place we live in Heavenly.
& God has Placed in us exactly what Heavenly things are like. So We Must LOVE each other.....in ways that make the Human condition Better. We can not say we love if we did not help the sick & the hungry etc., etc. Ok Now I have cluttered, Rambled with many words also.....haha Love You for all Your ...Thought Stimulation...all Your efforts, writings etc. Let us all go on to the good - better - best in our Personally walk with God. & Thank God We as Christians can & are having these (((((((( DIALOGS ))))))))) For The Improving & Reproving of His Kingdom & His Will Building a Better World. Redeeming Creation from The Curse. OK I Too am now out of Breath.....haha & I am too tired to edit & spell check.
The Bible stands true. People will try to re-write it and change it, but in the end it will be the judge against sin.
King James Bible God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Welcome, Michael! Much of what you seem to be attributing to this blog is not representative of what it is saying. Your opinions, however, are welcome and respected.
Kentucky, welcome! You and I share a respect for the Word of God, Who Himself will be our final judge. May we all live our lives in abandonment to His leading. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Wow, it was a lot of reading to go through all these comments. I am particularly enjoying the writings of PARoss, who has been making a lot of good points.
Awhile back, I posted a blog entry, "The End Of The Christian Right," and while mostly it was a prediction, part of it was also a call for Christians to stop focusing on condemning the same three things over and over (abortion, homosexuality, and evolution). What you have said in your blog is what I think will be increasingly the view of evangelical Christians, whether it is True or not. We are all trying to find our way and figure out what it means to be a Christian in our own time and culture.
Personally, I am undecided on this issue. The most convincing thing I've seen regarding the origination of homosexuality is what I read from James Dobson, who has a doctorate in child psychology from the University of Southern California. His writing stated that homosexual attraction normally forms within a boy between the age of six months and two (three?) years old. This would be why most gay men never remember being NOT gay, and can't simply decide to change to heterosexual attraction. Just like other things that happen to a person at an age too young to remember (i.e. abuse), it takes a lot of skilled therapy and time to come out of the effects of these early childhood experiences. This is why I believe that organizations such as Exodus are valid, but also why there are many who revert back. Things that form us at such an early age are very difficult to overcome.
Considering this view of the origination of homosexuality, it is very difficult to determine how to respond to a homosexual Christian. Certainly you can't label attraction as a sin, and it seems even the more fundamentalist of your commenters do not seem to disagree with that.
The real issue seems to be what to do about the attraction. And here's where I have trouble. Why is it so cruel to expect a person with homosexual attraction to remain celibate, yet you never hear anyone who is heterosexual who has never been able to find a marriage partner being given the okay to have sex outside marriage? To me, it's inconsistent and unfair to people who end up being single for their whole lives to say to them, "You can't have sex because you're not married, and sex outside of marriage is unbiblical," yet say to homosexuals, "It's not fair to you to never have sex, so you can get married" even though that is unbiblical also. For this reason, I have trouble supporting the "it's cruel to make them remain celibate" side.
On the other hand, conservative Christians have no credibility making such a big stink about how allowing homosexuality will be the ruination of our culture when they don't make much more than a tiny peep about divorce and remarriage, which IS ALREADY ruining our culture. It's easy to make a big deal about something you won't ever find yourself guilty of, but what about divorce? What if you make a big stink about that, and then find yourself in such a situation?
The really strong anti-gay responses on this blog's comments have equated homosexuality with adultery and other sins, yet conservative Christians don't give the other sins equal attention and especially not equal volume. If you're really concerned about the destruction of the family in society, then make a big stink about divorce, and laws that prohibit against discrimination of couples who are living together but not married. These are far more destructive to society. At most, 10% of the population is gay (I estimate 4% based on the percentage of exit pollers who identify as such), but about 50% of marriages end in divorce. Where's the real threat? All I can see is that the big voices against the acceptance of gay marriage and homosexuality in the church are prompted by "the 'ick' factor." I see no other logical explanation. And that's what we as a church must stop.
Some commenters, such as World Love and Golden2100 (others too)...it's sad to see such closed minds. Their dogmatism is so strong that it covers up any love that may be there. The love does not come through; only the judgment and closed-mindedness. Why are so many Christians like this? I have been particularly mystified by World Love's comments versus his MyChurch profile page. It talks of love, love, love, yet the comments here do not come off to me as love at all. With people like these, no wonder Christians are so often accused of being hateful. I don't think it's hate; it's just them being too sure of themselves and their own views. Can you really have God all figured out like that? Is he that small?
LOVE The Sinner.......& ......Hate The Sin.....Absolutely.
Hating Sin does not mean Throw Stones !
So Then How do You Love a Sinner.....Well You Do Welcome, & Invite, & no where in a Transforming process do You ever throw stones.
But The Kingdom of Heaven is to..........REPENT (( return to the Higher position )) for The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand.
Now.....welcoming or inviting [ALL manner of sinners to Church] is Like .....A Gym hanging a Banner stating that All Fat
People are welcome here.
But You WILL NEVER see working for a GYM the 600 pound Personal Trainer. The 600 pound person is improper CONDITION to Train Others into proper Shape.
Likewise You should not Ordain Gays as Pastors.....Gays should be Loved, welcomed, but Being Transformed, & Conformed to The Word of God, in The Renewing of The Mind By a Pastor in Proper Condition [Who is Conformed to The WORD].
Kareb, your profile is set to private, so I don't know how old you are, your gender, or anything about you. I suspect your comment is meant to be an analogy equating homosexuality with spousal abuse. If so, I challenge you to continue studying and praying on this issue. If, however, you or someone you love is involved in spousal abuse, and your post is a cry for help, do all you can to help the victim to safety for her and her children. There are shelters where women can go for safety, and a call to the local police will get her on that track. If your loved one is the abuser, he needs to get out and seek help immediately. It does no one any good to contniue living in abusive dangerous situations, and the harm is far greater and longer lasting than the physical pain, even unto many future generations.
I cannot read this encyclopedia any longer. HA! I wish my comments had not crashed with the nightly shut down of mychurch but they did just that and were gone. I have to agree with Cheryl on her comment, You make God smile!
It really hurts me when I see people so bent out of shape against one sin or another. To me a sin is a sin is a sin is a sin. I agree with Kareb, Christianity can not accept sin, but LOVE the sinner as is stated above.
Why is it that some see it their place to decide that which is God's right? It hurts me, and you living in the south Kathy you know this is true, when you drive by a marquee and you see it plastered all over "Gays are ____ or they are going to ____" or you see that "abortion is ____"
I believe it actually hurts Jesus too. I believe he died for all us sinners. Not just certain ones who did the smaller sins according to how people classify the sin.
My teenagers hung out with many out of the closet teens. They used to go to church, till someone told them how horrible they were behaving in their choices. You should see the looks on their faces when I or one of my teens would tell them, "God Loves You, You are a special person in His eyes" They would tear up and almost break down.
3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
All sin is unrighteous, all is ugly in His site. I sin daily, I am now a Christian. I am just as bad now, in my sin as when I was participating in this sin too in my past. I go to church
I know it has to crucify Jesus again when the Bride of Christ persecutes another potential Bride of Christ. I know it hurts Jesus.
If we the church would quit persecuting the potential Brides of Jesus, and start loving on them until the Holy Spirit in them can convict them of their sin.....
wow what a thought...our churches would be overflowing.
Extremely Silly ?? Those Sins ? Crimes ? Are ALL Done by Walking BY
FEELINGS !!!.............My People Walk By FAITH & Faith in The (( B I B L E )) & NOT by Feelings !!
If it Feels Good Do it, is the Same Old...Same Old, Same Old LIE The DEVIL uses OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER Again & Again & Again
???????????????
NOW You Would Think.....The So Called CHUCH Might catch on to some of Satans
worn out Tactics YES ??? Please ......Let's Get a Little Bit on the Ball !
The Church ...... & All its Members are to be Totally Rehabilitating, like a Super Hospital Healing The World .....Of.... SIN.....& Crime & Grime The Super Clean All ...Cure All...Fix All
Let The Church Grow into a much More Mature, Equipped, Effective, POTENT, Having Massive Results in Restitution of His Creation !!
So when The Master Comes Home to this World .....He will See Our Living FAITH With Works.
Are We Managing this World with the preparation of Him Coming as a Guest to His own Property that He gave US Charge of ??
Did God Really Say That?......Did He Really Mean That? God is not an Author to Confuse us.
We Need to Start with Clearing out, & Cleaning up THE CHURCH.
To Many Goats eating The Food for His Sheep.
Preaching & Teachings that are Jacuzzi Messages Designed to make more Money must END ! Lead...Command.....His TRUTH.
Walk as He walked ...He was Not Throwing Stones at Sinners. The Really Hurting & Suffering, He had Great Compassion for them.
He was VERY Critical of Leaders...in Government, Religous Leaders that were Doing a Poor Job, Bad Job of Really Caring for For their Followers. Correcting Their VIEWS that they thought were correct. He Did not water down Truth, He was Hated & Murdered for His Expressed Opinion.
Hating Sin is like The Story of The Good Samaritan......We are to always AID, Where True is Void. Filling the Void with the Light of His Love.
There are only Two Kind of Religious People....One When Encountering Sin They Gosip or STONE THROW. The others with The Same Compassion like Jesus...Heals, Restores, Repairs, Pick up those that have Fallen. Rather than Knock Them down to Make themselves Feel Higher than those they are knocking.
Love One Another so by....THIS WAY Men will See The Glory of Jesus in Us.
I Love You Kathy.....Very, Very Much,,, You Are Such a Blessing Here on Mychuch.
UH...pretty soon Kathy you are going to have to change your profile on this blog to +300 comments... and I sent it to JENN my daughter...whom I refuse to divorce... she has a passion for this and can't wait to read it
Another giant in the Christian music industry broke his silence publicly Friday in an article in the Washington Blade. With 4.5 million records sold, 3 Dove Awards, 12 no. 1 hits including Thank You, The Anchor Holds, Watch the Lamb, and I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb, Ray Boltz could no longer keep the silence he claims he has held since childhood. Shall we join the many Christian groups that are already rallying in condemnation? Shall we remove all his worship songs from our churches? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_7jYecFgj4
About a week and a half ago in People Magazine, singer Clay Aiken of American Idol fame confirmed his homosexuality. His quote: "I don't really feel like I have anybody to answer to but myself and God and the people I love."
First of all to say the Precious Word of God is not always correct, I cannot believe that a christian would say that. If some part of the Bible is wrong than how can you know which parts are correct and if it cnnot be applied to life now then what good is it to us. The Bible is perfect and applies much today as it did when it was written. 2 Timothy 3:16 " ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness" Now is God perfect? If He is then what he inspires must be perfect too and what "scripture" did the early church have they were writing the new testament this was a refrence to the old testament. Now about homosexuality, believe me it is a SIN. no matter what other people want you to think that is exactley what it is. Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths.I think that is clear. Now it says in the Bible that God hates sin period, but He still loved all of us enough to die on the cross. can we not then hat e the sin people commit and love the hurting soul that is sinning. I have sinned i admit it my " righteosness is like filthy rags in God's sight. homosexuality is not a 'BIG " SIN IT'S JUST A SIN. just like me lying to my parents or stealing a candy bar God does not see degrees He just sees sin. Christians need to stand up for this to defend the Word of God rather than twist it to meet our sinful needs. Teaching people that this is right is like smiling and saying your going to Hell can I pay for your fare. I want to see as many people as I can in heaven, but I will not sugarcoat the truth because someones feeling might get hurt or it's not politically correct. Because I do not want to stand before God and explain why I told people that sinning was okay and that that they should be in heaven , because they were only acting naturally their blood will be on your hands. please prayerfully read this and cosider that maybe you might want to reconsider before you praise blasphemy.
This is a blog I posted not to long ago addressing this issue, I want you to understand that we are commanded to hate sin any sin, but love the sinner!I completely disagree with you as does the Bible and here is why:
I'm very curious as to why today we as Bible believing Christians don't stand on certain issues? For instance such as same sex marriage,abortion, homosexuality, capital punishment, ect. I will say right here there are some issues that I don't speak on cause I don't know much about the reasoning behind the laws made. I guess I should look into them but quite honestly, at times when I try to understand it's quite mind boggling, and my head feels like it's going to explode! I'm not sure if most people don't because they still have a world view on these issues, maybe because they don't think Jesus addressed these issues, or possibly it's because they don't want to offend anyone. I do agree that we shouldn't go around offending people except in the cross, but these issues are sin. Therefore if people are offended by our Biblical world view so be it.
I believe the biggest reason is that some Christians, and liberal theologians say that Jesus was silent on these issues. Sadly, this is a common arguement from people who should know better. Their reasoning goes something like this: There are no direct quotes in the Bible on same sex marriage,abortion, or what is morally permissive, In the Bible, Jesus did not specifically condemn abortion or homosexual behavior.Therefore, abortion and homosexual behavior are morally permissible or unimportant.
There are many problems with this reasoning. Direct quotes of Jesus also didn’t specifically mention gay-bashing, slavery, drunk driving, child sacrifice, and many other sins, but they are still sins. They are arguing that Jesus was silent, and that is plain wrong and foolish.
Some insist that since Jesus didn’t specifically condemn the oxymoronic “same sex marriages” so they must be permissable. Jesus also never talked about square circles, partly because they don’t exist either. Jesus is God so He authored all the moral laws in the Bible - including the crystal-clear ones against homosexual behavior and murder. And He created the institution of marriage and desribed what parents should do, of which 100% of the verses refer to the ideal as a one man/one woman union.
Many of the “red letters” (direct quotes of Jesus) referred to the “black letters” (the rest of the Bible). Jesus noted in Matthew 5:17-19 that He supported all the law.
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
He may not have specifically mentioned abortion and homosexual behavior because they weren’t hot topics for his primarily Jewish audience. Homosexuals were a tiny minority then just as they are now and the Jews had strict laws against such behavior. Regarding abortion, Jews actually saw children as a blessing and not a curse, so they had no desire to destroy them.I believe under no circumstances were these issues dividing the followers of those times as they are today.
Having said that, Jesus was not silent on oxymoronic “same sex marriage.” He clearly stated what marriage was in Mark 10:6-9 and elsewhere
10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
He describes exactly what the plan was, and doesn’t even hint at other possibilities. He didn’t say you couldn’t marry animals either, but I don’t see anyone (YET) saying that must be acceptable because He didn’t specifically prohibit it. So He was not silent on these issues!
Regarding abortion, He reiterated that we shouldn’t murder and noted that the real meaning of the command was deeper than the physical act.
Think about this: It took almost 2,000 years,to pervert the sexual revolution that repeatedly denies and mocks the Biblical worldview of human sexuality plus a massive, well funded pro-gay public relations campaign to convince some liberals that oxymoronic “same sex marriages” should have gov’t recognition and that abortion should be legal. Yet liberal theologians(and I'll add some Christians) think that it is something Jesus should have addressed in more detail back then? Even the pagans had prohibited against abortions until just recently. HMMM thats something to think about.
They were non-issues for the Jews. If these liberal Christians / theologians are so keen on the direct quotes of Jesus and assume that they trump the rest of the Bible, why don’t they take them all as seriously as they do their pet verses or arguments from silence?
Jesus claimed to be the only way to salvation, but they not only ignore that but they teach the opposite. He claimed to be God, but they tend to ignore that. He spoke with a physically resurrected body but they often deny that. He said his primary purpose was to save lost sinners and He taught about Hell a lot. And so on. I don't get some peoples reasoning today they pick and choose, some say Jesus advocated caring for the poor, but he never brought government into it (apparently Jesus’ silence only counts when it comes to abortion and homosexuality).
Jesus didn’t mention same-sex marriage, but that is an oxymoron. He did mention Sodom and Gomorrah multiple times, such as in Luke 17:29: “But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.”
So to summerize: Arguing that Jesus was silent is ignorant, Jesus inspired all scripture, He supported the Old Testament law to the last letter, the "red letters" were not silent on these topics. Nor was He silent on capital punishment,war, welfare, universal health care ect..... these issues simply were not hot topics for the 1st century Jews, but He did mention Sodom and Gomorrah!!!
For leaders or Christians like this, to (mis)quote the red letters and to commit the fallacy of arguing from the silence is negligent and foolish. They are distorting the Bible and hurting the church and its witness.
Kayka, welcome to MyChurch! It is an honor to meet an 18-year-old with such passion for Jesus! I hope you had the chance to read this blog. If so, I'm sure you would agree that this is not a blog written for the sake of political correctness, and all the questions and points you raise were addressed there. May our Lord Jesus Christ guide your heart, mind, and soul as you continue to follow Him, and may He bless you in your service to Him! All the best to you in culinary school! That sounds like great fun, and you sound like a most wonderful young woman!
Homosexuality is a sin. This were we start diluting Gods word. We must preach the doctrine as God has commanded us to do. We must preach the word, that dosent mean we cant explain to them that jesus loves them not there lifestyle. If this is not so why was Sodom and Gomorrah Was destroyed? God was fed up with there sin.
Hi a_fallin_rose! Welcome to MyChurch, and welcome to this discussion! Yes, I am familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah. Did you get a chance to read the blog yet? Glad you're here!
Patrick, welcome to MyChurch! I look forward to what you have to share with us here! Thank you for blessing my day with your comments! "We can not minister where we are afriad to go." Amen, and that is exactly where my heart is in this blog!
We know as christians what is moral and what is not. WE know right from wrong. God didnt say anything about same sex marriages? But he did say in the last days Men will be lovers of them selves.What do you think he meant by that? God has given us a brain and convictions to know what we should and shouldnt do. Although he didnt quote on quote mention it in detail in the scripture. Do you think as a christian God would approve? Cmon people. We are here to spread the word of God and there shouldnt be any deviation of this task. We are not spreading hate, but we dont condone these lifestyles. The lord says its wrong in any form. If the bible says that homosexulity is an abomition, I think same sex marriages ought to be considered in the same conversation
Hi Angela! Wow! You posted your entire blog as a comment here! And I read it all! It seems to be a speculation on the answer to your own question of how some Christians can argue that homosexuality is not a sin, and it's based on the speculative premise that it's because Jesus didn't specifically address it. I suspect you may not have had time to read this (my) blog yet, as it makes no mention of such an argument, and in fact, it might give you some answers to your original question, if indeed you are seeking to understand the opposing viewpoint. Your view is respected here, Angela, and I hope you will find the time to read mine if you haven't yet. If we have to agree with each other on everything, our pool of friends gets really small! Please take the time to read, and then let's be Christian friends who respect each other's difference of opinion. This issue, though critical to those who have to deal with it, is not critical to anyone's salvation. (John 3:16) May God bless your work for Him!
Unfortunately, Malleus, I agree. Christianity has become such a series of rote recitations that we are not even aware of the many inconsistencies in our teachings. Sadly we often make God look inconsistent to those who observe from the outside. To me, that is the saddest part of this entire issue: that those who are watching us cannot differentiate between the Perfect Savior and His very imperfect followers.
And I agree that if we are truly concerned about preserving marriage, we should be concentrating on heterosexual issues, not honosexual. Why is it so easy to get married? Why can one person get married 10 times? Why is divorce so easy? Why is it OK to call non-Christian couples "married?"
Maybe we need to completely overhaul the marriage idea and call the legal partnership a civil union for everyone. Then if the church wants to "marry" someone in a sacred ceremony that is their choice. As it is now, marriage is hardly "sacred."
Hi Wayne! Welcome to MyChurch and to this blog discussion! Your view is welcome here. Did you get time to read the whole blog? If not, I invite you to do so, so we are talking about the same things. Which Scripture are you referring to about men becoming lovers of themselves? And exactly what is it that you are asking if I believe God would approve? Thanks for taking the time to comment!
I didn't read everything, but I both agree and disagree with alot of what I did read. I agree that we should love the sinner, but hate the sin. Those who believe themselves to be homosexuals should not be banned from the church, nor should anyone else who commits any other type of sin. Sinners are the people who we want sitting in church, and that should be all of us. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord. (Except one, and that is using Truth to commit sin- saying to yourself "God will forgive me later," and sin anyway. That sin is not forgiven, because true repentance did not follow. You cannot use Truth to sin. ) Now, I don't believe that homosexuality is genetic or that people are born that way. I believe it is a choice. You want to know why? Because I used to be a lesbian.(I still hate that word! I prefer to use gay.) It's true I never had a relationship with a girl, but I lusted after plenty. I was attracted to other women sexually. Did God still love me? Yes. Was He broken up that I was choosing sin over Him. Yes. Did He deliver me, and heal me of these feeling and the things that caused them because He is an all powerful, all loving God. ABSOLUTELY. Do I still struggle with sin? Yes, because I live in the world same as everyone else, but I no longer belong to it. I belong to God now, and He protects my mind. I admit that it was fun. I liked the feelings. They were exciting, but only for a little while. Then I felt worse. God never made us to sin. He doesn't want us to to sin, to live for our passions and desire. Yes, He created us to have them, but at the appropriate time and manner. He doesn't want them to control us, as sin controlled me. God can deliver you, if you truly seek Him and His truth. As a former and still sinner, I completely and totally believe this. Let everything be for the Glory of God, Snooze Button
I don't condemn the homosexual; however, I condemn the act of homosexuality. The Bible states that "homosexuality", which is sodomy, is an abomination. Please don't shoot the messenger!
It's true that sinners should be the ones sitting in church. However, once people are in church they should be taught to live a holy life and to abstain from all kinds of sexual immorality. Jesus said "Go and sin no more" which actually means "though tempted, don't yeild to it".
That's exactly as it should be Mr. (or is it Miss) MD. I forgot to add to mine, that Sodom was destoroyed because the people were immoral. The men DEMANDED to have sex with the angels of the Lord and therefore were destroyed. That does not mean I condemn the sinner, only the sin. Homosexuality is a sin. I firmly believe that. That means I'm saying I sinned. Yes, I did. I sinned. Am I proud of it? I keep telling you over and over. NO! I am ashamed of my sin. I hurt God beause of it, and other sins. I'm just trying to point out that it is sin, which means we can be delivered of it. If it wasn't sin, and we didn't have to be delivered, then it wouldn't be an issue. I'd also like to point out that it may cost me to have put it plain and oud on the internet that I used to be gay. I am ashamed of my sin, and while I don't want to hide it, I am afraid of losing my dear Christian friends. My head knows I won't, but my heart is still afraid. A few select friends in my church know that I used to be gay, including my pastor's wife, but it is not general knowledge. I felt that I had to put it out there though, because out testimonies are the stongest things we have to bring the lost to God.
If anyone would like to talk to me personally, please just message me. I'm not sorry if I offended anyone. Christianity is close minded. God tells us to do, and not do specific things. Once more, that does not mean to condemn the sinner, only the sin, which God plainly spells out in the Bible. The Bible is relevant today, and is all correct. "All scripture is God breathed and is usefull for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." This is the truth. The Holy Spirit says it is truth. Ask HIM if you don't believe me. I am His, and His messanger.
Kathy, I only skimmed through it because it was late. I know you were not making the argument that my blog addressed directly, but your basic premise is that homosexuality is not a sin if I understand correctly, so that is what I addressed, that it is sin. Anyway I am going to go back and read through it thoroughly and I'll respond again after.
P.S. We wouldn't have much hope for salvation if we couldn't control ourselves. We wouldn't need salvation at all because that would mean God made us to sin, but He didn't. He made us to love Him, and dwell with Him in holiness. We cannot do that as we are, because we are sinful by nature, but He took care of that by sacrificing Himself- Jesus who was a man, but God and God's son (The Trinity is hard to explain.) for our sins because He is the only holy and perfect being without sin. If we believe this, truly repent our sins, die to our flesh, and live for God, not for our desires then we will see God in heaven. As a former sinner, this is now my motivation- Seeing God.
MD, welcome to MyChurch, and thank you for sharing your views! We are neighbors! No messengers will be shot here!
Thanks, Angela. It strengthens our own positions to understand the opposing ones. I look forward to your further comments.
Snooze, I can see your passion on this issue and I perceive some open wounds. My prayers as you continue to deal with your past struggles, that you may find peace. Thank you for sharing your story here.
Related News Update: Election Day, Nov. 4, California voters overturned a court ruling allowing gay couples to marry in their state, by voting 52% in favor of an amendment defining marriage as the union between one man and one woman. Gay marriage bans also passed in Arizona and Florida; and Arkansas, also aimed at gays, voted to ban unmarried couples from adopting children or serving as foster parents. Massachusetts and Connecticut are currently the only states that allow gay marriage.
I am commenting not to everyone else's comment, but to the blog itself. You did give a great synopsis of your viewpoint. I want to share my own personal experiences. I struggled for years with homosexual attractions. In fact I still find myself tempted to explore those fantasies now and then. Now I do behavioral therapy with men as a full-time ministry. What I have found with my own life and the lives of countless others is that all behavior is learned behavior. We may have a sin nature that longs to please itself and, therefore we are born with a desire to sin. But it is not until we are put in situations for these acts of sin that they meet a perceived need. We are not simply physical and spiritual beings. We are also emotional and intellectual as well. We have experiences in life that are impacting on us. They may be positive or negative. But they leave their mark on us. We feel something, we believe something, and often we walk away having a belief changed or reinforced. Either way, that belief affects our attitude or conviction. Our attitudes or convictions result in a behavior. Often, we follow this pattern long enough, we believe that this is how we were made. We may practice abstinence, but until we understand the root of the issue, we will not see a real transformation. That is why I believe Romans 12:2 is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible: "Do not be conformed to the patterns of this world (ideologies, ways of thinking and relating), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve God's will."
Back to my own experience as an example- I find the direct link between a belief that I do not measure up as a man and my temptation o act out homosexually. The real need is not sexual act, it is emotional affirmation. I have learned to live free from my struggles by practising healthy emotional exercises.
Dear Brad, thank you for sharing with such honesty how you have personally dealt with this struggle. May God continue to give you strength and wisdom, and may your ministry reflect the Savior!
You are such a thoughtful person Kathy. You have taken what I find to be one of the more biblical positions I've ever read. People who hear certain terms or phrases and immediately shut off their thinking caps or don't finish reading the blog are missing some great truths...
The cover story of the Dec. 15 issue of Newsweek is on the Bible and gay marriage and is creating quite a stir in the evangelical community. 40,000 reader responses in "a matter of days."
Storypeddler, welcome to MyChurch, and thank you for being a part of this blog! It is obvious to me that you have given this issue a lot of thought and prayer, and I am happy for you that you have found your peaceful place in dealing with this. I hope you will hang around and become an active part of the MyChurch community! Blessings to you!
I'm sorry there is no way I have time to read this whole blog or thread. I skimmed a little and I wonder. Is homesexual sex in your eyes a sin? It seems to me that the Bible writers believe it to be so. Thanks.
Welcome to this discussion, Martin, and welcome to MyChurch! I invite you to read the blog when you have the time, as that is where I have thoroughly given my response to your question. And your thoughts are welcome.
It does seem clear from scripture that the lust for, or sexual activity between two people of the same sex is a sin.
One might argue from naturalism that men have a sexual orientation toward spreading our seed with every willing and sexually mature young woman. However, to do that would still be the sin of adultery, Christ says that lusting after a young woman is even adultery of the heart. So certainly to trespass in the sin of homosexuality is sinful. I'm not advocating hatred, or even intolerance toward gays. I'm simply stating that people may have moral inabilities, we may not be able to do all God commands due to nature or nurture, but that does not excuse us from sin. God however has provided a way, for the gay, and for me and for us all. First we have to admit that our sin, is sin.
Ted Haggard and family on Oprah this past Thursday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01w3mYNWAXU (follow-up editing by the person who posted it to YouTube, not a part of the televised program; interview posted in 5 parts)
IHG, I'm glad you're here, and I hope you'll take the time to carefully read this entire blog, if you didn't already. I clicked on your profile to see who you were, and your music was unbearable to me. Harsh, angry, and offensive, in a way that made me think it was on purpose. So I left, and I spent 15-20 minutes in prayer for you, because the fact that you are here and your user name say there's some bit of openess or searching within you.
I don't know your story, but if you are gay, I suspect you may have good reason to feel bitterness toward "church people." "Retarded" means "slow," and the fact is, I was very slow arriving at the convictions of this blog. Slow, because, as you know, most churches take a quite different stand toward homosexuality, and it was quite a prayer journey to come to this point. Almost everyone on this site is a sincere Christian, striving to please God as best they understand on this earthly journey. We all get some things wrong. They do. I do. Probably even you do.
Should you want to share your story with me, publicly or privately, I care. Really. And so does God. Please do not confuse the Perfect God of the Universe with His imperfect people. Being gay, unfortunately, often means being misunderstood by the church, but it does not mean being misunderstood by God. He created you, and He loves you. Yet He still has expectations for you. If you love Him, you will want to let go of the bitterness and seek to know Him more fully. Spend time in prayer, listen to some Christian music, read from the Bible, find a fellowship of believers that can understand and welcome you. (Try some of the denominations mentioned in this blog.) There are Christians and churches that will embrace you.
Should you decide to dialogue with me, you can be assured that anything you send me privately will remain private. And whether I hear from you again or not, I am commiting right now to pray specifically for you for at least the next 7 days. You are beautiful too and God's creation! Welcome to MyChurch, and thanks for the star!
Hi Steve. Thank you for dropping by again. Your statement is the definitive one for most of the Church, and you are in good company. Unfortunately that is usually as far as the Church is able or interested in going with this very important dialogue. It was one of my intentions with this blog to expand that dialogue and stretch us all to think about this with a broader lens. I invite you to read this blog in its entirety if you have not already done so. The title is an attention getter, but the blog itself responds directly to your statement from many equally Christian angles. God's blessings to you!
All the quotes are from what Kathy wrote in her blog.
OK, first of all, why is this issue so important to us as the Church? It is important because it is the daily struggle of so many people all around us everyday.
Sexual desire engenders a battle that most Christian men struggle with everyday. Whether that sexual desire is directed at other men, women, children, or even animals matters not…it is all flesh. Every married woman knows that she cannot change her husband (might take two or three years for her to figure it out) and every married man knows that he cannot change his wife. In fact, every single Christian knows that they cannot change themselves and the harder they try the worse it gets.
Chances are you would want to protect those you love from them, and/or you would want to help them change. This normal response is riddled with fallacy. Second fallacy: Homosexuals can be changed into Heterosexuals. Despite what we Christians want so strongly to believe, an intelligent view of science and psychology is fairly conclusive that sexual orientation is not a choice. That causes serious problems for our Christian thinking, so we will argue the opposite position until we are red in the face, but ultimately, it doesn’t change the facts. Why are people gay? I don’t know. That jury has been out for a long time, and that chapter is not in this blog!Homosexuality as we think of it today was nonexistent in both OT and NT times, although the orientation itself is evident across lines of time and place.For those on the “case closed” side, consider the following Scripture passages. The Bible says it. Shall we apply them to our lives? Attitudes about homosexuality vary greatly from culture to culture and from century to century. There has likely never been a culture without homosexuals, even in the animal kingdom, but in many cultures, it has been a non-issue.
All of these things are a clear indication of the reality of the fall; that fall not only affected Adam and Eve and all those born of them, but it also affected the creation. Neither animal nor human behavior defines normalcy from God’s perspective; it merely defines what is normal in this age.
Sexual orientation is a misnomer. A person’s sexual orientation is not about sex. It is about identity. Herein is the crux of what divides us as Christians on this issue: Do homosexuals choose to be homosexual? Traditionalist Christians adamantly say yes, and if this were true, I would agree. Homosexuality would be a sin. If it is true, however, that homosexuality is genetically determined, much like eye color, left-handedness, tongue rolling, etc. (which is becoming more and more scientifically probable), then we are essentially saying that it is a sin for these people to be born. A homosexual person can no more deny his same-sex attractions than can a heterosexual deny his. Interestingly, even the president of Exodus International agrees there is no "cure" for homosexuality. People do not choose their feelings, he says. They can only choose their behavior. o, yes, I am saying that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not a sin. That said, however, what is done with that orientation is indeed a choice and can certainly lead to sin, for both homosexual and heterosexual people. Promiscuity is sin. Adultery is sin. Attraction, however, is basic human instinct.1 Corinthians 15:22 ( ESV ) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. What we were born with the first time is doomed to destruction…it is flesh and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. God is not in the renovation business where he is going to take what is of Adam and change and reform it. That, of course, is the fallacy of the quoted assumptions. The only thing that can be done with Adam and all that proceeded from him is to put them all to death. The flesh [what we were born with the first time] is not ever, nor can it ever, change! To think that it can is a deception. God did not change us, he immersed us into the death of Christ and we are now a totally new creation in Him.I blog because it breaks my heart to think of another generation of gay young people struggling alone without family or church support. Another generation of young people believing something is wrong with them and wasting years trying to change in order to fit in. Another generation of church outcasts, confused at why God must not love them and why He doesn’t answer their prayers to change them. I write because you might be his aunt. Or his teacher. Or his pastor. Or his parent. You might be her office mate. Or her neighbor. Or her child’s little league coach. For this reason I write, and I am not alone.
I’d say that 99% of Christians don’t actually believe Romans 6; we don’t believe—in our heart—that we are not only free from the dominion of sin but that we are dead to it; that our flesh with its passions and desires has been executed (e.g. crucified). That being the case, we then have our identity tied up in the passions of our flesh rather than who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us. We define ourselves in terms of our nationality, color, gender, or sexual proclivity rather than in terms of a being new creation in Christ.
There isn’t a sexual sin that exists that I have not personally participated in. Although I never defined myself as being a homosexual or a bisexual I have had numerous homosexual and heterosexual experiences in my life. In fact I have lived with a number of homosexual men when I was looking for the Living God in what I later found out was New Age. I’ve been to numerous gay bars, seen, known, and observed many gay men and their behavior in their relationships.
I know and understand and have experienced the dynamics of the shame that a person experiences when they have been seduced not only by a member of the same sex but also by a member of the opposite sex (my Army buddies Mother). The shame comes from the realization that while engaged in the sexual activity you were completely given to it and got pleasure from it. The enemy, of course, takes complete advantage of this and attempts to get you to define yourself in terms such as: “I’m straight,” “I’m gay”, or “I’m bisexual.” If you have defined yourself in terms of “I’m straight” and have had a homosexual experience you will suffer a great deal of fear and shame because the thought will come to you that “you must be gay,” etc. If you are given to pornography, those previous experiences will then begin to crop up more and more in your fantasies—you can never take the previous experience back.
All of this happens to both Christians and non-Christians; all of this is flesh. It is not Christ living through you. Christ does not lust after women, he does not lust after children, and he does not lust after other men either. No one who is abiding in Him will be given to any of these activities, nor will we define ourselves in terms dictated by what the flesh says we are. We will see ourselves as being neither gay, straight, nor bisexual, but in terms of being an entirely new creation in Christ. We are called to live an exchanged life; we are not called to live a changed life. Christ himself lives his life through “all” of our self thus saving our “soul life” while we wait for the future redemption of our bodies, in which sin still dwells.
Ephesians 2:1-6 ( ESV ) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ( ESV ) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality [arsenokoitēs: male + bed], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I am, of course, speaking to Christians not to those who are in the world…God judges those who are outside, we are told to judge those who are inside [1 Corinthians 5]. I always find it fascinating that blogs that discuss this particular manifestation of the flesh are always the most popular. :-) If the discussion was about gossip or fornication it would have ended 322 comments ago. :-) Notice that Paul did not write “As are some of you.”
If you want to know what God intended for you then just look down when you get out of the shower. If you see a penis then you are male; if you see breasts and a vulva then you are female…clearly the one goes with the other by design. It’s just a fact, it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with what our flesh says or feels. If we cannot walk by the Spirit and we lack self control and insist that we just must have sexual release then there is only one choice that we have: we are to marry, in the Lord, a person of the opposite sex. If we are confident, in the Lord, that we have the grace to live a sexually pure life then…don’t get married. It doesn’t matter what our flesh is attracted to. We are not called to live a life that can be explained in any other way than in terms of the fact that it is Christ himself living through us. The Christian life cannot be lived, in the flesh, following Christ’s example like a list of rules. It does not work and if it did we’d boast in our self not in him.
It is just a fact that no matter how many scriptures are quoted, either in English or Greek, unless I realize that it is the word that divides between soul and spirit, it won’t matter. If I will not judge my thoughts and feelings by the word then there is no way that I will not end up in deception because I have more respect for my own understanding and intellect (or feelings) than I do for anything that the scriptures might say. I am in a very dangerous place when scripture is made to bow before human reasoning or feelings. We are well able to justify our continuance in any sin…I’d like to remind everyone that Romans tells us that anything we believe is a sin, is a sin [Romans 14:23] and anyone who encourages someone else to engage in something that they believe is a sin is sinning against Christ [1 Corinthians 8].
Craig, your response shows a careful reading of this blog and thoughtful interaction with it. Although you and I ultimately come to different conclusions on this issue, I appreciate the intelligent way you have argued your position, and the obvious time you put into your response. It is obvious God is at work in your life and that you are indeed a new creature in Him. God bless you, brother!
Honestly, your response it exactly what I expected: gracious and affirming. I also expect that what has been written may perhaps soon be buried in a continuing sea of responses. It is my prayer for you that by the mercy of God you might be brought to a change of mind. I would also suggest that you save the contents of the blog someplace for future reference…for if what was written is merely the opinion of Craig then indeed it is merely just one more manifestation of the flesh; but if it was written at the initiative of, and in the Spirit of the Living God then it is not the opinion of a man that is being ignored and trampled.
I actually believe that I am one who walks among those who are perishing in the wilderness, who have heard the word but who have not mixed it with faith. Grace not only frees men from the penalty due for what they have done or what they may do; it is also what frees us from what we were in Adam. Ignorance and deception leads to men and women perishing in the wilderness…never having come into that which God has already provided in Christ. Judgment does begin with the house of God; that judgment is not punishment but discipline; discipline does not lead to eternal destruction but to the destruction of the flesh that a person may live in the Spirit in the day of the Lord.
It grieves me that freedom has been given in Christ but because of ignorance and persuasive arguments and words of worldly wisdom folks are led to believe that they have no choice but to remain in the state that they inherited from their forefathers. The emancipation proclamation has been signed into law but those who have been redeemed are led to believe that their present condition is their destiny. It is necessary that stumbling blocks come…woe to those through whom they come.
I'm back! I've just watched a great movie, called "Prayers for Bobby" and it made me rememer this post! The full movie is available online in 9 parts but of great quality here:
The synopsis: Sigourney Weaver stars in this true story about a religious mother who struggles to accept her son Bobby's homosexuality. But when tragedy strikes, it causes her to question her faith and her views in ways that she never could have imagined.
Thanks, Valya! I followed the link and watched the entire movie! Very moving and challenging for those of us comissioned to salt the earth. Thank you for sharing it here! I just noticed that Malleus mentioned this same book back on July 15. Having seen the movie, that might be a great read, apparently mostly Bobby's diaries, then those of his mother.
Gregory, your story made me cry. I hope it will be read by many, as no one can argue that you chose your situation. I echo your hope that Christian people will love unconditionally and leave the judgment to God. A prayer for you tonight, my friend, and a hug!
Hi Kathy, please tell me how to unsuscribe to My Church, I didn't know that it was gay-friendly. I believe, because it is written in the Bible, that no gay or lesbian will inherit the Kingdom of God. Do me a favor, tell me how to unsuscribe of this. God bless yo (I hope).
Jonel, I see you have just joined MyChurch. Welcome! If you are looking for a site that believes as you do about homosexuality, I invite you to browse the 300+ comments here, and I'm sure you will feel right at home. No individual blog post is representative of the more than 200,000 members on this site, and this one surely is not. Please stick around and get to know some of the wonderful Christian people here. God bless you.
Jonel,When I want to understand what the Bible says on an issue. 1. I think about when and where this was told and know about the context, historical background and cultural habits at that point of time. 2. I refer to all other passages on this subject throughout the Scriptures (in different Bible versions) and I will be convinced as to what the Bible as a whole says about it.
Slavery has never been condemned in the Scriptures. Can you keep a slave at your home? You don’t have to unsubscribe from this site, brother. Since Jesus loved sinners, we need to love gays and lesbians. You can condemn sin but not the sinner.
So, If I got your point, if the Bible was writen TODAY, God would never comdenm homosexuality. The reason HE did it in ancient days is because GOD DIDN'T KNOW that most people would become homosexuals in our days and that homosexuality would become a «normal» sexual orientation. Thanx brother. I feel more confortable now about this ignorant and limited god that I serve. Please tell me how tu unsuscribe to YourChurch.
Kathy, I'm sorry but I still feel unconfortable about MyChurch (or YourChurch) and point of view about sexual orientation. I just can't swallow it and I feel ashamed about this. Do me a favor, please tell me how to unsuscribe. If I knew I would never suscribe to that. I already heard about «liberal american christians». Rencently, one of them, a so-called pastor, an homosexual, came to organize the first gay pride in Haiti. Another pastor, maybe a liberal christian, abused of poor little boys in his orphan at Port-au-Prince. Shame! Oh Shame!
Jonel, like I told you on a private message, unsubscribing is not the proper conduct. And I'm glad the Holy Spirit in you agreed. I'll come back with my comment on this.
Lord, I'm praying for your children Poor in spirit, overwhelmed See the sorrow, and the broken Hear their crying and despair Their eyes are red and swollen Their hearts are torn to shreds The hopeless stand empty handed Lord, I'm praying for Your children Through my lips, You hear my prayers.
Lord, I'm praying for Your children They are everywhere I look Tired and weary, cold and hungry Sick and helpless, weak and tired Depressed and weary, anxious and angry Wringing hands, from such distraught Seeking answers, yet finding none Lifeless eyes, forgotten dreams Shattered lives and broken homes Lord, I'm praying for Your children Through my lips, You hear my prayers.
Lord, I'm praying Your children Who have yet to hear Your voice I am begging for the lost ones All they need is You in sight Guide us to them, through Your Spirit Use our words to show Your love Use our ears to understand Use us, Lord... to touch their hands Lord, I'm praying for Your children Through my lips, You hear my prayers.
6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.
effeminate means homosexuals. This was written to the Corinth in Greece which for many years had this sin in their culture . But look what the apostle Paul said to them .And such WERE SOME OF YOU BUT YE WERE WASHED AND SANCTIFIED, AND JUSTIFIED IN JESUS. Proven that the regeneration of the Holy Ghost can change lives. Jesus said you must be born again. that means i am a new creation, old things are pasted away behold all things become new. I'm sadden by how many people are blind to this subject when the bible plainly tells us that effeminate is sin. Why do you believe science over God. If God can create the the oceans, sky, planets, why can't He help me and you to stop sinning? If you all really love you effeminate friend please tell them the truth. and pray for them that God will open their eyes. It breaks my heart to see so many people on mychurch that thinks this sin is ok. That God somehow changed his mind. True this is not the only sin talked about in the bible but it's still one of them. We need a revival of holiness in the church!!!!!!!! Jesus first words in the Gospel of Mark was REPENT.
Steven, it is my personal opinion--and I believe I have the mind of the Lord--that because we find that we cannot change ourselves, e.g. our flesh, we change our doctrines to allow ourselves to remain as we are. No faith and no Living God are required. It's just a given that no one can overcome what the flesh would make of us except by walking by the Holy Spirit. But much of Christianity has been reduced to the lowest common denominator: what we can do in our own flesh and nothing else.
Galatians 5:16-25 (ESV) 6 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
It isn't about who we were born as the first time; it's about who we are now that we have been made a new creation in Christ. Although the flesh and sin are still with us, in our bodies which are dead because of sin, God in Christ has done something about them. However, unless we mix those facts with faith we never experience them for ourselves.
And, as previously mentioned elsewhere, it isn't as if I don't have experience in this area. I've lived with several homosexual men while involved in New Age stuff, and have had numerous homosexual experiences in the past. But like like the verse in Ephesians says: "such were some of you but..." So my own life is a living testimony to the reality of Romans 6-8.
Steven, effiminate doesn't mean "homosexual", at least in the sense in which it is understood today. The phrase (malakoi) was most frequently associated in antiquity with catamites, which were young boys (usually slaves) kept for pederasty, either as willing (albeit juvenile) protsititues or as unwilling slaves. While in the technical sense of the word, it is a homosexual act, it should not be any more an indictment on gay people than the fact that child molestation or rape of someone of the opposite sex would be considered a heterosexual act.
I am hesitant to post this, knowing the nature of these blogs. These are not here to listen to others thoughts, but to elevate ones own, whether knowingly or unknowingly. I hope I do not also fall into that trap.
I do not understand this argument at all, nor do I see the legs on which it stands. As believers, we do not stand on the wisdom of man, but on the truth of the Word of God. Can we be so naive as to believe that we can agree to disagree on what is and isn't sin? The same Jesus who said "Love your neighbor," and "Love your enemy," also said He is "one with the Father." The same Father who delivered the law to Moses, the law whose words are being mocked here. We do ourselves a disservice to think that our knowledge of truth supersedes the God of truth.
Christ fulfilled the law, and he declared it as good, vowing not to do away with it. Christ died because the law said we must die for our actions, and he took our place. Now, because we love Him, we put aside our sinful nature and follow Him, through the power of the grace he provided.
My suggestion to all is this, preach Christ crucified for all, preach Christ raised from the dead, and preach that the Father sent him to save the world, and desires that all know Him. Preach that He gave us His Word and sent us His Holy Spirit to guide us through it. And trust that the Spirit will do just that with all who will come to Him. The church will not make any man right before God, only the blood of Christ will, and all must work out their own salvation by grace through faith.
Please don't agree to disagree with this comment, and please do not send kind words of understanding. None of us understand the true depth of Christ's love, nor the holiness of His being, nor the goodness in His judgement. Just know that his ways are not your ways. The fields are ripe for the harvest and we spend our time pseudo-intellectualizing His Word under the microscope of human achievement. Lord forgive us for elevating our opinions to the same greatness of your Word.
How is Mosaic Law being mocked? Tell me who mocks the Law more, the person who thinks that the Law has been abolished through the sacrifice of Christ, or the one who picks and chooses which parts of the Law he will support (like gay people are bad but my bacon sandwich is okay)?
Sexual orientation may not be sin, but it is a result of sin committed by mankind as a whole, according to the Bible. Therefore it may not be the fault of the individual. We as human beings have to take collective responsibility. Would welcome a discussion on this.
Hi Timothy. Welcome to MyChurch! I can see you are a man of conviction, and your position on this much argued topic is certainly the more popular one in Christian circles. I respect you for standing up for your understanding of God's Truth, which I'm sure you would agree none of us fully possesses. On this issue You said "We do ourselves a disservice to think that our knowledge of truth supersedes the God of truth." I agree 100% and have expressed this same sentiment often. It applies to us all.
You said yourself, "I do not understand this argument at all . . ." Those who have been taught as most of us have, and have never been jolted to reexamine the issue, will not understand. Did you carefully read this entire blog? If not, you are invited to do so, not that it is likely to change your view, but that it may give you a clearer understanding of another Christian viewpoint, one that I believe is more Christlike than the one you and I have been taught.
Malleus, a nun's friendship with her gay cousin - interesting article - thanks!
Ragland, with your perspective of the issue, how should we treat such people? Do we hope to change their orientation? What else besides homosexuality would you classify as "may not be sin, but it is a result of sin committed by mankind as a whole"?
Kathy, I did read the entire article. It's very easy to classify me as someone who just believes what I was raised to believe when all you know of me is what I write in a comment field on a blog.
I cannot live by personal experience, nor by the experience of others, only by the Word of God. The Word which declares that homosexuality is sin, as pointed out by several already on this blog. That is not to say it is sin to be tempted, but the act, or the lust of the act, is.
1st Timothy 6:3 says that anyone who teaches false doctrine, and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, is conceited and knows nothing. This person has unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, and evil suspicions.
1st Corinthians 6:9 is clear that those who are homosexual offenders, as well as those who are idolaters, adulterers, thieves, greedy, drunkards, or slanderers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
If I cannot trust these passages of scripture, than what passages can I trust, for they would all become subject to the personal feelings and experiences of all, making these issues relative and nothing absolute.
The Bible is full of warnings for all of those who would lead people astray, and I am afraid that that is exactly what is being attempted when someone rails that the church is wrong about the nature of homosexuality. Surely it is your intention to get others to think as you do, so I cannot justify agreeing to disagree, for your sake and the sake of others.
Tim, would you agree that one has to read passages in the Bible in their context? Does not one do a disservice to exegesis as a whole by not examining the verse in its pericope, as well as looking at the original meaning of the words themselves? You say that leads people astray, I think that whether they agree or not, it leads them to a deeper understanding of the Scripture.
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 1:21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 1:29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
Yes the point is Jesus want to heal those who are sick. Those who know that they are sinners and continue to walk in sin and encourage others to walk in sin may not be healed but may die Romans 1:32
1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The key verse is 1 Jn 1:9 one must realise his/her condition and confess. God forgives those who repent. It is for those kind of people to have a one-on-one relationship with God to get His forgiveness.
The Bible gives us a warning what kind of orientations we as human beings should be careful about.
If God choses to forgive them, who are we to Judge and cry they must be condemned?
Hiya Mike thanks for the compliment. What I wanted to bring out was if one is a gay or lesbian, it is not his/her own fault. Romans 1st chapter says it was God who gave us over . To redeem us sinners from this state God gave His only son. Jesus has told us what we must do to follow him and reach God. It is better to concentrate on that rather than judge fellow human beings.
It's about loving God's children, people. Reaching out to them with love. How in the world are we going to reach them by mocking them, judging them, spouting off to them.
After all, who are we to judge? Have we not sinned?
If you have not sinned, you get to throw the first stone.
I cut out an article from the Houston Chronicle that told the story of some Christian men who were trying to get free from homosexuality. The leader finally could not live with who he believed he was, and he killed himself. It was such a tragedy because all these men were trying to do things themselves and never knew that God does not change our flesh...He immerses us into the death of his Son so that we can offer ourselves to the One who was raised from the dead to live as a new creation in Him. Counting on the fact that we are dead to sin and can now present our members to righteousness rather than to the flesh.
It was a self-help effort that was doomed from the start; they saw themselves in terms of who the flesh said that they were, no one ever told them who they had become in Christ. Yet so many are doing the same thing with lesser, more socially acceptable sins. They live a futile life trying to perfect what God said could only be put to death: their flesh. Transformation only happens by the renewing of our minds...not by trying to change our behavior. If we don't see that we are already free then we will spend our lives in the futile effort of trying to obtain--by our efforts--what God has already given us in Christ. That is the real tragedy!
Dear Friend, with all due to respect, homosexuality has been around since the creation of man. I think that Christ can heal what ever burden, pain, or brokeness we face else what he did on the cross is a moot point. We all are sinners and God neither condones nor quantifies sin. I pray for everyone and the church should open its doors to all people who need the healing and redemptiion of Christ in whatever form shape or fashion it takes. And we should love everyone and offfer them the same Grace that God has offers us. I love you and respect your right to speak your heart....Pastor Chuck
Hi Pastor Chuck! Welcome to this important conversation! And welcome back Craig, Joey, Ragland, Mike, Malleus, and Timothy!
When I was a child it seemed to be the advice of the time that left-handedness could be cured if caught early enough. Parents and teachers were advised to remove the pencil from the child's left hand and place it in the right hand repeatedly until the child learned to prefer that hand. What it succeeded in doing was making the child feel not quite good enough. I'm glad I was, due to no doing of my own, a right-handed child.
What if homosexuality is not brokeness at all, and the burden and pain associated with it are brought on by people like us who just don't understand? There is more and more evidence out there everyday, but we are so busy disputing it in the name of Jesus (who never said a word about it, as far as we know) that we don't hear.
What if we are keeping a world of "left-handed" people outside of God's kingdom because we continue to insist that God can make them "right-handed"? Surely, God in His omnipotence can do anything He wants, but this is not how He generally interacts with his creation.
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