|
| God's justice: something to praise Him for? |
|
| |
I've floated this by a dozen or so Christians I respect and each one has responded negatively to it. I attempt to defend it but I have been unsuccessful. Perhaps it is my rhetoric skills (1 Cor 10:1). So I'm presenting it here in hopes that I can represent myself as clearly as possible. Keep in mind that I am a very young Christian, I have no formal training, and I do not consider myself a teacher; I still need to be taught. When one spends any amount of time contemplating our future life with the Father, one will eventually realize that it will be bitter-sweet. Sweet, because we are in the physical presence of our beloved Savior. Bitter, because not everyone we loved in our first life will be there with us; they will be in hell in eternal torment, with no possible way for them to come to us, or for us to go to them. Some we will have prayed for for decades. There's another dilemma: we want everybody in the whole world to be with God, and God expresses a similar desire (1 Tim 2:3-4). Yet, it is ubiquitous in scripture that justice is good and justice will be meted. Justice, one of the very core attributes of God, is central to the Gospel. Justice is the very reason why Jesus had to die on the cross: to pay for our sins, a payment required to equalize the debt of unrighteousness, a ransom for the imputation of sin and righteousness. Throughout the Old Testament we find examples of God's justice, from His judgment of Adam (Genesis 3), His judgment of Sodom (Genesis 19), and His judgment of David's behavior with Bathsheba (2 Samuel 12), to name only a few. Here's David's experience with justice: Nathan said to David, "...Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul; and I gave you your master's house, and your master's wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. Why have you despised the word of the LORD, to do what is evil in his sight? You have smitten Uri'ah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uri'ah the Hittite to be your wife.' "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.'" Psalm 51 was written by David after he had been rebuked by God. Psalm 51 is a treasure trove of good things. It is here that many denominations find the source of their recitation, "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me." It is here we find that the proper sacrifice of God is not animals but a contrite heart (also 1 Sam 15:22). Here is a verse I want to highlight from this psalm: Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. David realizes he's lower than scum (and feels that way, too). Yet, despite his position, he recognizes God's justice and prays God's justice be met and satisfied. Of course, the rest of the verse (before and after) are about David praying for the application of God's mercy. Christianity 101 teaches that mercy is the withholding of a punishment that is deserved. "Have mercy on me, O God.... Wash away all my iniquity...." Is the application of mercy unjust? According to God, no. Why? I'm not sure, but I'll side with God anyway. Throughout the Psalms God is praised for the attribute of His justice: The LORD is known by his justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep. O LORD, you preserve both man and beast. Arise, O LORD, in your anger; rise up against the rage of my enemies. Awake, my God; decree justice. He will judge the world in righteousness; he will govern the peoples with justice. Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. May the nations be glad and sing for joy, for you rule the peoples justly and guide the nations of the earth. I will sing of your love and justice; to you, O LORD, I will sing praise. . . . Every morning I will put to silence all the wicked in the land; I will cut off every evildoer from the city of the LORD. He will judge your people in righteousness, your afflicted ones with justice. . . . The LORD works righteousness and justice for all the oppressed. . . . When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" The brief survey above of just the Psalms shows several facets of God's justice: it flows from His very nature, it is good, it is wielded in fairness to uphold the righteous, He will govern with it (even with power or force as with the scepter), He will be praised because of it, it is something to be mimicked/done by us, it will be used to avenge the righteous to finally balance the clear injustice in the world. So we're to praise God for his justice. But this brings me back to our dilemma: we are ordered by God to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We are deserving of hell (Romans 1, 3). We do not want to be in hell. Therefore we do not want our neighbor to be sent there. God will indeed send some of our neighbors, friends, siblings, spouses there (justly-so). We will miss them dearly (undoubtably deeply so). When we are with God, what are we to do? Be angry at God? Or praise Him for his justice? Everything God does is praiseworthy, no? God will indeed send some people to hell. Therefore, we should praise Him for doing that. At face value, it certainly seems "odd" to praise God for sending people to hell, and I think this is what my friends object to, but logically I can't see myself doing anything else. Plus, what of justice? Inspect your heart. We are made in the image of God. We have built-in elements of God: love, reason, joy, creativity, morality, humor...and justice. Return to the playground: the bully just took your truck to play with it. That was clearly wrong, you recognize that. You want justice, to the point of tears. Yes, as mature Christians, it is good to recognize that the bully is happier now, and, had you been quicker, you would have given the truck to him before he stole it (Matthew 5:39, Luke 6:29). But I believe it is wrong and even unhealthy to ignore or surpress these feelings of injustice. Recognize that there is unjustice, remember that God will met out justice to equalize the inequity in the end (prayerfully through Jesus), praise Him for upholding you, and then look for ways you can love the bully. To deny God's justice is tantamount to denying a whole chunk of who God is, and have then created a god of one's own making. We should praise God for his justice. What do you think? |
|
| To add a comment to "God's justice: something to praise Him for?" |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| July 18, 2008 |
 |
|
|
Strange twist- yes.
But I have to wholeheartedly agree.
ALL justice is justice, no matter the outcome.
We can't accept the one without the other. |
|
|
| July 19, 2008 |
|
|
|
Hey Eric, So are you asking why people don't want people to think on that to much (or even acknowledge it)? Is it because we might slip over to the vengence side? Focus on their just deserts rather than their salvation? I'm not sure I'm on track with you. But if I am getting close, I remember what Paul said about a couple of people that he met, "of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." What does that mean to you? R... |
|
|
| July 19, 2008 |
|
|
|
Thank you, Bubbles! R, vengence is the Lords, not ours. How can we honestly be angry at someone when we have done likewise to other people? (Let he who is without sin casts the first stone....) Also, if we were that person (the bad guy), we would not want justice; we would want mercy. At the same time, God has established judges and rulers to govern and uphold justice in this world for the betterment of all (Rom 13ff), so we are not to abandon the court system. This touches on capital punishment, which is a dicy issue amongst Christians, and I don't want to go there with this blog. Regarding those who have shipwrecked their faith, Hymenaeus and Alexander being two, I would of course have to support Paul's decision. Of course, he could be talking about discipline, intervention, and discipleship, but I think its more likely he had them punished or locked up. We don't know much about them, but it could fall under the Romans 13 reference above. My goal with this blog is to alert people to what I think could lead to a false representation of God: His justice isn't bad and we should praise Him for all He does, including punishing people. |
|
|
| July 19, 2008 |
|
|
|
Eric said, "R, vengence is the Lords, not ours." Of course you mean, unless we are the governing authority in Rom 13, then He uses us to carry out the punishment. Eric asked, "How can we honestly be angry at someone when we have done likewise to other people?" I don't know about you but for me it is very easy. I am forgiven and now have the Spirit of God within me. The other person that ends up in hell (as your article here is talking about), is certainly not my friend, so it is easy to be angry with them and the evil that they do. And Eric just to leave this classroom stuff for real life, I'll make you an offer, you come down to the abortion clinic (here in Denver) with me and I'll introduce you to a guard, who is an enemy of Christ to the teeth and we will see what you will do. Ok? Jesus tells an interesting story in Luke 19 and ends it by saying, "bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." I am all for that. Not hard to get on Jesus' side of carrying out punishment at all. And no, I don't think this was a story about an evil King. Still, I am somewhat miffed about what your whole point is? Can you frame it in a question, again? Thanks, R... P.S. Sorry to ignore Christeena, but I figure you know one another so you can deal with the misconceptions that she has (God doesn't cause people to choose evil. People are making their own choices as to which destination they go). |
|
|
| July 20, 2008 |
|
|
|
Ohhh... good convo guys!
Christeena... this is treading on dangerous ground. "We" do not have the right to judge heaven and hell for someones life. Even a child molester- if prior to death- confesses his sins and accepts Christ into his heart- IS justified through faith. No matter what our opinion of it.
If you, as you say "blame" God... then you are telling him that He is unjust. God gives us the freedom to make our own choices. How is a bad choice His fault? Because He gave it to us??
Matt 7:2
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
I think this is a great blog subject. I really like what you wrote Eric. I am going to post a somewhat different take on Justice as a video by the Christian group Atomic Opera. I'll put the lyrics here so you all can follow them as I post the song. It played several times on MTV and was later an entry point for some of their shows. Anyway, I think the point Frank Hart is making is that angry individuals (angry at God) certainly do NOT want God's Justice. Justice by Frank Hart Black bird with a broken wing Is on the side of the freeway The preacher says, "Don't worry" But he won't fly away (oh, glory) Lights flash, sirens scream A Mardis Gras procession Everone is in trouble When everyone prays And all the people raise fists in the air Cry out in anger for things to be fair When I pray "have mercy" I will never ask for justice. Dark night in my soul I scale the walls of doubt In a cage of faith And there's no way out In these days of unknowing you I stand so close to alone But I will not stand For their black parade When I pray, have mercy The last thing I would ever want is justice When I pray have mercy I pray that I will never ask (for justice) |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
Christeena wrote, "I don't know if God is "just". If he is then why isn't the father of sin "Satan", simply abolished? Why did God even put the damn tree in Eden in the first place? More importantly why didn't God just destroy Satan?"
Those are extremely important questions. I've asked them myself and I think I've settled on some answers. Consider: why didn't God provide Jesus in the generation of Abel or Abel's children? Why did God take his time to do any of the things he did in the Old Testament? All of God's plan could have been condensed down to a hundred years -- or even less! Why is God waiting 2000+ years after Jesus' sacrifice to complete His plan? The only answer I can think of is this: to maximize His glory. Think of all the billions souls that will be in heaven now as opposed to had God completed His plan a hundred years after Adam. Think of the joyous roar of praise we will hear in heaven, worshipping Him as one. Further, why did God create this universe, the angels (including Satan) and us? For all of eternity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit lived in perfect loving community. He did not have to create this universe. He was not obligated to create us. But He did, in love, knowing full well we would rebel against Him. The Tree was placed in Eden for a reason. We probably won't know the answer to why to this until we meet Him.
But rest assured: God will abolish Satan (Revelation 20).
God's sovreignty juxtaposed with suffering and death has been a stumbling block that has shipwrecked the faith of many people. Listening to the testimonies of many atheists, this is by far the most common reason for their atheism. What absolutely amazes me is that a reasonable answer to this objection is in the Bible and many atheists are quite knowledgable about what is in the Bible. If you're struggling with these questions, Christeene, I encourage you to seek God's wisdom in His Word, find solstace, and get to really know your Rock of Hope.
Christeena wrote, "But, being fairly young and military I am surrounded by non-believers that ask me these exact questions and I feel as though I am doing them an injustice by not being able to answer them."
Christeena, I hear the same exact questions. At the moment, your best answer to give them is: "That's a good question. I don't know the answer, but if you give me a little time, I can look into this for you." And be honest about it: read up or ask someone more knowledgable than you and report back what you found. It shows your genuine concern for them. Longer-term, I recommend reading Reason to Believe: A Response to Common Objections to Christianity by RC Sproul. He is easy to read and I have found the book helpful. Also, having a better knowledge of the Bible helps in so many ways. Your friend's child reminds me of David's illigitimate son born to Bathsheba, who died as an infant (2 Sam 13). Why was the child born at all? Consider where David knows the baby to be now. Consult God's Word and meditate on His will (Ps 119:15, 27, 48, 97, 148).
Christeena wrote, "Sometimes I think faith is easier for those of us that are simple, and it is more profitable for those of us that are well educated...." Hands and feet, eyes and ears. 1 Corinthians 12. We all have gifts given to us by God. Not everyone should be a "brainiac." As I get to know you more, Christeena, it will become clear that you posess gifts I lack. Of course, if your gift is with relationships, that does not mean I do not need to improve my own skills. Likewise, I think it is good for every Christian to know the reason for their faith and be ready to give an answer (1 Peter 3:15). It doesn't have to be deep and complicated; simple answers will suffice. |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
R, yes of course, there's Romans 13. I guess I meant absolute vengence. And not all of us are called to be in the position of a civil judge. That's a state-to-person level. I guess I was speaking on a person-to-person level; Matthew 7:1ff is still there warning us not to judge others, for the same reason as the "he who is without sin" quote.
R wrote, "And Eric just to leave this classroom stuff for real life, I'll make you an offer, you come down to the abortion clinic (here in Denver) with me and I'll introduce you to a guard, who is an enemy of Christ to the teeth and we will see what you will do. Ok?"
Being a young Christian, I don't have much experience. But classroom theory, if it is good theory grounded in God's Word, shall be my guide in real life. Theory tells me that Jesus can save and transform the very worst sinners and make them strong warriors for the Gospel. He's that powerful! Look at Paul (Acts 9, 1 Timothy 1:15, Romans 5:8). Your enemy of Christ may in fact be your future cohort in righteousness. If that time comes, what will you think of your past demeanor toward him? Jesus Himself said "love your enemy" probably in part for this very reason (Matthew 5:45ff). He (and I) said nothing of how easy it is to do this, though. No doubt it is incredibly difficult. But in God all things are possible.
R wrote, "Still, I am somewhat miffed about what your whole point is? Can you frame it in a question, again?"
Uh, I'm not sure what part you are missing, R. In my last comment I used different words to restate what I think the point is to this blog and you're still not connecting. Could you ask a more specific question?
Paul: A fine distinction on praise. Something for me to think on more. I would say salvation is not salvation unless it effects a person (makes their heart anew, born again), but that has deep reprocussions for another topic I've been avoiding on MyChurch. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Recon, cool song. Thanks for sharing. I think I agree with you. It'll change a bit when they're face to face with Jesus, though.... |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
Hmm, very heady stuff Eric. I doubt our entry into heaven will be bittersweet. (I don't know, of course, I'm just anticipating...) I believe the joy of being with our Savior, and the wonder and awe of the place, will far outweigh any temptation to mourn those who didn't make it. Rev 21:4, oft repeated, says "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." The old order will pass away, no more pain. I can't even conceive of that, can you? This verse is actually further into the future, at the creation of the new Jerusalem/earth, but I imagine heaven will be similar? As for justice/mercy, did I read above where someone said those who are in desperate need of mercy and know it do not cry out for justice? If not, then there, I just said it. :-) (The parable of the unmerciful servant also has something to say about striving for justice even while depending on mercy.) We love God's justice b/c it is so perfect. He even subjected himself to it in order to restore us to him! I don't get the sense that we love God's justice b/c we get to see anyone banished to hell. Well, I suppose when we give our own cause over to the Lord, allowing him to be our defender and protector against the wicked who would do us harm (or perhaps have already done so), there is a certain amount of satisfaction in seeing justice done by the Lord. Well, those are my thoughts at least. Good blog Eric! |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
| I have not read all of the comments but I read your post. God has to judge sin. He will by no means let the guilty go unpunished. The thought that a God of love would have to judge people severly is difficult especially since many of these people you have pointed out we have personal attachments to. I/we praise Him for His justice because it is perfect. Even if we don't think it is fair, He knows what we do not know. The prophet Isaiah said, "Our ways are not His ways nor are our thoughts His thoughts." Isn't that a relief? However I may think whether I think it to be right or not is still not even close to possessing the nature of God with omniscience and goodness. I trust Him to do what is right because of who He is. He has done everything He could do short of "doing it for us" to reconcile man unto Himself. It is our choice to "go to the Lake of Fire" not His. He became sin for us, He became a curse for us, He went to hell for us so if we choose to reject the gift what else can be done? As you pointed out, His justice was satisfied on the cross, but as the book of Hebrews says in so many words, "If we reject the sacrifice of Christ, what else is there?" As an added blessing of how gracious and good God is; is that the book of Revelation teaches us that God will wipe away every tear. He is the God of all comfort and somehow He will console us. Another thought, if we are broken up over a lost soul how much more is the Heavenly Father? Don't you think it pains Him? You know it has to. I do believe in a literal judgment and an eternal lake of fire, but there are some that try to reconcile the love of God with the Justice of God and teach that those that reject Christ will be annihilated. The use the verse our God is a consuming fire. To say, that they will just be done away with and there will be no eternal suffering. Your comments above, say that you are not educated, nor a teacher etc...but you are wrestling with some ideas that are advanced and are weighty. You have an unction from the Holy One, ask Him to lead you in all truth as you pursue these lofty concepts of God. |
|
|
| July 21, 2008 |
|
|
|
AMEN Paul!!!
I won't praise for that either.
Our job is to save as many as we can from that fate.
Lord help us.
Christeen- *phew* Their thoughts not yours. Ok.
Questions are always good.
But things like that are not God's plan.
It was the plan of the enemy.
God the Father may turn it around for His Glory- but we have to choose that- choose to accept His assistance in it so that He will get the Glory |
|
|
| July 29, 2008 |
|
|
|
Eric, A dear friend pointed me to your blog and I have to say, great blog and wonderful discussions.
Let me start by saying that we all work out our own salvation. Each of us will take a different path in following Him and have to live by the choices we make in our walk.
Just a few points I'd like to make;
re: Justice,
Justice and mercy are two sides of the same facet of God's presence. The same hand that offers us mercy could reach down and wipe us from the face of the earth for what we've done (and that includes all of us as none are not subject to sins and temptations in this life). He cannot look upon sin whether it's taking a piece of candy from a candy dish on our co-worker's desk when they're not looking or murder - even that of a child. All of God's being is good and He will not look upon sinful creatures (hence the reason for an Advocate in the person of Jesus to remove those sins before we stand in judgment). Instead of giving us what is due, He has given us a way to escape the grave and proved that it was possible through the resurrection! Definitely not what we deserve! We are to use His word for many things, teaching and edification as well as correction and rebuking. We must be judgmental to be able to do the last and as was stated above, we will be measured against the same standard as we use on others. Makes forgiveness much easier to work with and ask for. Vengeance (and revenge) is the Lord’s. I can pray that he would smite those that I would carry a grudge against, but we are to offer forgiveness and mercy as our Father in heaven extends to us. My vengeance will only be as a man could inflict... God’s vengeance will make me glad I waited.
re: Hell
As far as "going to hell for eternity goes, I really think that there has been a great misconception through the years in the teachings of the church. A look at the words that were translated as "Hell" most or all were translated from the same word in the original languages that most closely means "grave" or "pit". The real torment is not the place - but the consequence of eternal separation from God.
re: Our perception of God in the OT vs. the NT
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/216107/Old-Testament-and-New-Testament---Code-vs-OutputIn this blog, I contrast what seems to be the biggest difference in the two views of God that are presented to us through scripture. As you have noted in your blog, God (OT) is one who demands justice. For the things that HE could (or should) do to us for our transgressions, we should fear Him and try to do what is right before Him. But, due to the fallen state of the world, that is always easier to say and agree to than to do... which goes back to the need for mercy. He offered this on the cross...
re: The Tree in the Garden of Eden
Yes, I agree that God knew we - mankind -would fall. He also knew that He would have to expel us... He also knew that Jesus would come to earth to not only show us that perfection was possible and that victory over death is real. As a parent, I have several times 'tested' my children while they were younger to see if they were really listening to me... "You know that cake (or other treat) is for the party later. You need to stay out of it". You see, God was doing the same to Adam and Eve as we do to help train our children. When I've placed such a temptation before my children, I hope that they will listen, but do not count on them being able to do so. This way, I create teachable moments where we can later discuss such things without fear and in love. No, I don't punish them but do let them know I was disappointed.
That's a real as diapers and p.b.&j. ; )
Again, great discussions.
LV |
|
|
| August 15, 2008 |
|
|
|
God doesn't answer all of the questions we can imagine. Rather, He gives us the reality-based answers we need.
Our situation: God created everything good, even very good. Then Satan muddied the waters of human perception by destroying human trust in God. Satan's question, "hath God said..." (Genesis 3:1) has caused the human brain to doubt the reliability and trustworthiness of God's Word, and destroyed our natural trust in His Word. From that point forward, our human sin was/is always a matter of trusting our own understanding (Numbers 15:39, Deuteronomy 12:8, Judges 17:6, 21:25, Proverbs 3:5, 12:15, 16:2, 21:2, 26:5, 26:12, 26:16, 28:11, 30:12, Isaiah 5:21) rather than trusting that God's Word is truth. Sin causes us to think that we know better than God. The question, "Why didn't God just destroy Satan at the beginning?" implies that we know a better way to handle things that God does.
The reality is that evil in the human heart is real. Where did it come from? From Satan who planted the seed of doubt in the hearts of Adam and Eve, and this evil is like a disease that continues to spread through contact. Satan's attack on Eve was a declaration of war against God.
God's plan is to destroy the evil and reinstate humanity as He first created them -- good. But in our reinstated condition we will have the experience of human history to help us, so we won't be good and naive (like in the first Garden), but we will be good and experienced -- which will make us even better. God uses what was intended for our evil (Satan's attack) and turned it to be used for our good, like the story of Joseph in the OT.
Furthermore, the destruction of evil is actually a good thing that we can praise God for, and that we must praise God for because we ourselves cannot destroy sin and/or evil. Humanity is its host. So, we praise God for destroying that which is out to destroy humanity and against which we are powerless (sin).
God is both just and merciful. God destroys evil through the institution of His justice. So, He sent His Son to die on the Cross to satisfy His demand for justice -- and then raised Him from the dead to satisfy His demand for love and mercy. God's justice is like medicine that attacks the evil but spares the host, though the host will experience some pain and discomfort from the medicine -- sometimes even the death of individuals. Nonetheless, the medicine is good for the host. God loves the host and hates the evil. God's justice serves to destroy evil and is "for a time," but God's mercy is eternal. Praise be to God through Jesus Christ! |
|
|
| August 20, 2008 |
|
|
|
EVERYBODY, thank you so much for your insightful and thoughtful comments! This blog (plus the comments) is probably the one that has made me think the most. I've been thinking about all these things since I posted this blog. This is a difficult subject but it does effect how we perceive God. It is important that we have a correct (or as close as possible) perception of God. Mike, you wrote, "This verse is actually further into the future, at the creation of the new Jerusalem/earth, but I imagine heaven will be similar?" That's been troubling me for a few years now. I think I'll blog on it. What is this "heaven" everyone talks about? The descriptions I read in the Bible talk of a New Earth. Phat Daddy, thanks! LV, thanks for your input. I've read your blog and it's good. PARoss, great comments!!! Thanks!! |
|
|
| May 07, 2009 |
|
|
|
 [star!] |
praise god for your words Eric and thank you for sharing! Surely we should pray and contemplate all that you have said! |
|
|
Follow this blog
