Hi Kathy,I can relate to "Where is God When You are Hurting". It seems we want to be real close to God when we are hurting and then we think we can handle things when things are going good.  Enjoyed the blog. See you Sunday!   Hazel

Kathy,

I've found a wonderful young woman who seems to often write about death and sadness. She seems to draw people who are suffering from grief. It almost sounds like your last week. I'm going to post her site for you, read Rachel's tears, I'll send a note later to tell you my part of the Rachel's Tears story.

http://jenschroedel.com/category/essays/

Dennis

Great blog, Kathy. We usually don't look for God until we are hurting. Where is God when we are hurting? The same place He is when we are not. He is with us always as you stated in Heb 13:5 And Matt 28:20.

Mike

Simple but profound, Faithrock.  God is with us.  There is no greater comfort!  You are a voice of calm wisdom! 

Mike, thank you for adding your perspective.  Many find that a helpful theology.  I always appreciate hearing from you! 

Dennis, thanks for the link!  Jen is a talented writer with a depth of material from which to draw.  I read Rachel's Tears and look forward to hearing your part of the story.

Hazel, I love it when I hear from an Enonite!!!!!!  Thank you for reading my blog and leaving your comment!!!!!! 

Kathy,

Great job. I enjoyed reading it.  Gives me pause to ponder...

First thought...you said "Why does He not heal all the sick, raise all the dead, stop all the earthquakes,  and right all the injustices of the world? "  I think the answer is He does or He will...the difficulty for us is that we have this thing called "time" that we live in, and it is such a short period of time.  Still pondering... 

This seems to me the most clearly stated explanation I have ever heard.  It is such a blessing to me - I am sharing it with some family and friends.

 RA

Well, the story of Rachel...I read this story in Boundless and was overwellmed. It touched me at a very deep place in my soul, so being the good father that i am I forwarded it to my oldest daughter. I was talking to her the next day and she said, "dad do you know who Rachel is?" It turns out that Rachel was the daughter of an old friend, I had bought the house Rachel was born in, and baptised in from her dad. i knew of the incident of her death, we all had been praying for her father, he was devastated by the accident, and his part in the accident. Then he co-celebrated the funeral. To then find all these linkages with her, her family, and then Jenny S. was one of those times when God used an incident to drill a very, veruy deep hole into my heart. This was one of those times where tears were not enough, it needed a change of heart to even come close to fathoming the pain I felt. It was also one of the defining moments where God prepared me for my son's injury that was months off, but even back then, God was preparing a soft place in my heart so that I could trust Him when I got that late night phone call to tell me they had saved his life, and were probably going to save his arm. I am a strong believer in God's preperation, if I hadn;t run across this article in Boundless I would not have been as prepared as God wanted me to be for my own trials. God is so very, very good!

Dennis

Where is God when I am hurting?  God is closer than the air I breath!  The problem is not in where God is, but where we are.  I can get so overwhelm with pain and hurt to the point of losing sight of Him, but then His sweet Spirit talk to my soul and I remember His promises and then I know that somehow everything will be ok.

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever... but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:16-18)

Kathy, thank you for another AWESOME blog!!! I'm thinking along the lines of what DC proposed and is still pondering :-).

"God is a God who heals. The Greek word that means "I save" also means "I heal." God is concerned not just about our spiritual salvation, but also about our whole being. One day we shall all have a new perfect body."*

*Nicky Gumbel's book "Questions of Life" (study guide for Alpha - a practical introduction to the Christian Faith), page 211.

Voice, I am with you!  Time is one of those concepts that our finite minds have trouble escaping, even in our imaginations, but God is not bound by time, which, as you say, may be part of the explanation why we can't understand His allowing us to suffer.  To Him there is no difference between one day and a thousand years, because He is not bound by hours or days or centuries.  He has the full picture, and very likely has answered much of our suffering.  We just don't know it yet.  (If I am not on your page, please come back and tell us more!)

Bestemor, that is my hope and prayer for this blog, that it will bring comfort to some who need it.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for sharing the blog with those you care about!

Dennis, what a beautiful picture of God obviously orchestrating events in your life.  Thank you for sharing this story, as my blog is incomplete without an emphasis that, although He does not orchestrate everything, He certainly is active in our lives.  I think we would be totally amazed if we could see the many ways His hand is at work in our lives!

Yes, Lourdes, I am with you. God does not forsake us.  We just don't always see His hand.  His Spirit is ever with us!

Mary Ann, thank you for your kindness and for sharing your thoughts.  I agree with you also.  God is definitely a God who heals, although many times He allows diseases to take their course and death to take our bodies.  As you say, though, ultimately all His children will be healed, and all our suffering will be over and insignificant!

Charlie, thank you so much for adding your ponderings!  I think I am with you on Romans 8:28!  It promises us that He will bring good from the bad, but I do not see that being necessarily "my good."  "Good," in my opinion, means the ultimate good, God's good, which, for those who truly love Him, would be our good too, would it not?  We want what is good for His kingdom, because we are on His team.  As I said to Voice, if I have put words into your mouth, please come back and say more.   Your thoughts add a lot to this discussion! 

Thanks, Sumiteer.  (You've changed your name!)  This does look like an interesting book, but I am way behind on my reading and can't add another book to the stack!  It would be interesting to hear your take on what it has to say to the issues in this discussion!  God bless you! 

Kathy,

A few more thoughts after further ponderings here...

First, I think you have a very healthy view of Romans 8:28. I know we like to use that scripture as a light to guide us through rough times....and it should be...however, you make a good point..."Despite how difficult life gets, Romans 8:28 promises us that God can bring something good out of even the worst of circumstances, if we turn it over to Him.  The promise doesn't say the good will outweigh the bad, or that the purpose of the bad is so there can be good - just that good can come from all situations if our lives are given to the Lord"...I also agree with the further discussion that the "good" is God's good and not ours.

What I am still pondering, from my first read, is the idea that suffering builds patience...and the only reason we need patience is because we are in this world where time matters...why would God build in us something that He doesn't need since He is not bound by time...this, I don't understand...

though out my child hood i suffered every few months i was breaking my legs. but i always found comfort in prayer. i come from a very abusive family. and instead of sulking and feeling sorry for my self when i would get hurt i figured it was gods will during the time i was in the children's hospital which was 100 miles from my home town. even though i was in physical pain i found peace there was no yelling i didn't have to put up with my dad getting drunk and beating my mom. the nurses became my family. each time i was in the hospital my stay was any where from 3 months to 6 months. there was one nurse named fanny who would come in every night and read me a bible story. and she prayed for me every day. as i got older and more bad things seem to happen i would turn to the bible for comfort. and i have figured out that we must endure what ever comes into our lives. it is gods will its not to break us but to make us strong. i don't think god is gonna hand out free passes to heaven we have to earn them. even gods chosen lived through hard times he sure didn't make their lives easy. we just have to not let our faith be shaken because in the end we will have a blessed reward waiting for us. great blog

why would God build in us something that He doesn't need since He is not bound by time...this, I don't understand...

Dc,

Does God build these things in us for Him, or for us? He may not be bound by time, but we exist in time. I am finding that God does very little for Himself, most everything that occurs is for our benefit. The other thought that occurs involves Gods redemption of all things. Gregory the Theologian said, "what is not assumed is not healed", I think that God has enveloped all things in His redemptive act, now some things refuse to stay under that umbrella, there is still action of sin, death and the devil, but still, I think more is healed than we know, including time.

Do you think that there is also another thing at work in these struggles? I am wondering how much of these happenings involve God's inclusiveness of us in the redemptive process? He did call us to be prophets, priests, and kings. He called us to be Christs hands and feet, could it be that He leaves us to be Romans 8:29 to people in the world?

I mean, we are being called to be conformed to the image of the Son who gave himself up for the life of the world. If that is the case we are distincly called to love, minister healing, grow people in all those things that cause them to come into the "fullness of Christ". I stumbled on Psalm 30 when I was thinking about this...

Maybe we have to pass along this "prosperity" to those who are still hurting, a prosperity of God's indwelling, of God's redemptive love, we need to "assume" those things if at all possible. Do I make sense, does that open up any doors of thought?

Denniis

Dennis,

Sure does open doors of thought...if I implied that He was doing a work in me for Him, I was incorrect....my thought is more about the scriptures you present where His promise to me is to conform me more and more into His image...as I was created before the fall...yet as you point out God does a redemptive work in us...which takes time (in my case, sometimes years) not because of His shortcomings, but because of mine.  I am beginning to see a bit more clearly through this dim glass I have.  Thanks!

Although my utmost desire in writing this blog is to offer comfort to the hurting, I do also enjoy a good theological discussion.  It is a part of my educational training and my personal passion for learning and understanding.  Theology, however, is man's attempt to explain the things the God, and I am certain that all our theologies will turn out to be less than perfect.  Thankfully, we can disagree on many theological issues and still be brothers and sisters in Christ, saved by grace, because we agree of the basic tenets of the faith and have placed our trust in Jesus.  My respect and love for you are no less if your theology is not like mine, and I do not claim to have all the questions of the universe figured out. 

That said, to assert that God does not orchestrate everything that happens to us does not logically lead to the assertion that He orchestrates nothing.  God is very active in and around our lives.  He is omnipresent and always at work.  He hears our prayers and answers them as He deems best, perhaps not unlike our responses to our children's requests.  Some requests we grant, some requests we tuck away until Christmas, and some of them we choose not to grant because we understand beyond the child's ability to understand.  Likewise, there is much that we plan in our children's lives, but much that is left to hope and prayer. 

United, thank you for sharing your personal story, which may be a perfect illustration of what I'm saying in this blog.  I dont' believe God chose to put you into an abusive home, but I believe He chose to protect and hold you.  What a gift to you!  and He used nurse Fanny as His vessel.  Is she still living?  Did you ever reconnect with her as an adult?  She would be blessed to hear your story!  It seems that  you have had more than your fair share of pain, and you seem to have been strengthened by the challenges.  As you have said, there will be a time when all our struggles will end.  And yes, Paul urges us to work out our salvation, although it is not the works that saves us, but the Grace of our Lord Jesus.  I believe that if we are totally committed to Him, we cannot help but work, not out of obligation, but out of our love and gratitude for Him.  Be blessed, my friend!

Voice, since I don't believe God causes most of our suffering, I also do not believe that all our suffering has a purpose, including patience.  Yes, patience is one of many "goods" that can come out the bad, just as are strength, faith, relationships, etc., although in some lives, adversity reaps just the opposite reactions.  This, Charlie, is perhaps the "submission" of Romans 8:28.  Not that we have to submit for God to bring good out of bad, but that our submission allows the good to take root in our own lives, maybe through stregthening our character (like Voice's patience), or maybe through being able to recognize God's work around us through the situation.  You have both (and Dennis) given me more to ponder, and my response here is meant as dialogue amidst my pondering.  I appreciate your thought-provoking questions, and invite your further dialogue.  I enjoy being challenged and stretched.  Dennis, can you say more on your last statement?   

Kathy,  going to say somethings here that are not fully digested yet...I have learned to not think too much about "cause" of suffering. I always lose in the theological debate about whether God "causes" or "allows" suffering. In some cases, He mandates it - as with Christ's suffering on the cross.  Scripture talks about "just" suffering or "suffering for the Gospel". This is expected and walking through that suffering builds character.  When we come across a suffering that doesn't make sense and we can't tie it to the furthering of God's kingdom, then we have to look further.  In many cases, I contend that type of suffering, as in all types, is a result of our fallen world. My son has autism. Is it because his father sinned or his father's father?  Well, yes, and it is a result of sin in the world period.  I am no more to blame than God is for creating a world where sin exists. That, by no means, gives me the right to just accept it as is. Because I have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, I take my place in the government that is on His shoulders and exercise the authority given to me through Him.  I don't always see the results I want, but I have to know that God is in control - since the government is on His shoulders, and the results are what He wants.

Of course, we are always balancing that thing called "time" into the equation, too.

As with your comments, I am not "defending" a position. Rather, I am pondering openly as if we were sitting around a picnic table in the garden...

Voice, you were possibly tbe first MyChurch member that caught my attention when I joined here, and my respect for you has continued to grow as I have gotten to know you better.  When we disagree on a few details, I listen intently to what you have to say, because I know it is well thought out and spiritually sound.  Your thoughts often stretch mine into areas I haven't considered, and I always enjoy hearing from you!

I agree with you that there seems to be no all-encompassing answer here.  Yes, there are times when God does mandate suffering, just asa there are times when He heals or even raises the dead.  Thus, I was careful in this blog to avoid absolutes.  I would never discount prayer.  Although we don't completely understand the workings of prayer, we have plenty of assurances that we are to be ever praying, and although prayer does not obligate God to give us everything we ask for, there is no shortage of evidence that He often does.  Based directly on how much faith we have?  I don't think directly so, except in the sense that the stronger out faith, the closer in unison we are with God, thus praying His will, not ours.  And then, as you say, there is time, which surely obscures our spiritual vision.  Thank you, Voice, for challenging my thoughts!

Ashley, thank you for giving me a smile!!! 

Kathy, you are too kind and I truly appreciate your words here.  I truly like the way you position your thoughts - you give room for growth and by doing so, both of us grow.

Additionally, I am the type of person that thinks about things...it takes me a while to process things...I don't take hints...God knows He has to hit me with a 2X4 to get my attention sometimes...I can't help but think...it is one of the reasons I like these blogs. I can read them, think about it, come back, read again, and then comment.

I give you that background only because I have been thinking about prayer a lot lately. I pray, as most of us do. I wish I could say I pray continuously, but I don't. I pray for people all the time, though.  One thing I have found is that the prayer most oftened answered is the one to change my heart.  Almost like Jesus in the Garden...not my will, but Yours...and it isn't a prayer of surrender. Rather it is a prayer of war.  Girding oneself up to stand against the gates of hell. So, when I pray for you, I pray that you will see God's hand at work in your life and He will change your heart to be more like His.

How does that play in the "suffering"? Well, I agree with you that sometimes God heals. In those times I want to know His heart and be there praying for the healing. In other times, God doesn't. I want to know His heart there, too. When I don't know His heart, then I pray for changes to be made in my heart (or the one for whom I am praying).

One final thought for the night...why is it that when He lays us down in green pastures to restore our souls, it is often in times of dire need?  My greatest periods of growth have been in the valley where the soil is fertile and not on the mountaintop where the view is majestic.

Voice, thank you again for your comments.  I like your observation about prayer.  I too have found that it is the times I am praying with the Holy Spirit's leading that my prayers are most answered.  And there are certain prayers that  we can depend on always being in His will, like, as you say, praying that my heart and/or the heart of another will become more like God's.  This prayer does not assume that we understand all the answers, but that we put our faith in God, who does.  I appreciate this prayer for me, Voice.  Thank you!

On your last thought:  I think that may be similar to the question, Why is it that when I lose something, it's always in the last place I look?  Just as we stop searching for something when we find it, it seems that, as Hazel said, we start searching for God as a last resort after trying everything else at our disposal.  I too find that my greatest periods of spiritual growth have been in the valley, but then the mountaintop becomes so much more beautiful!

For us both, Voice:  May God guide our hearts closer to His! 

I listened to a podcast from Family Life Today, it was am imterview with William Hendricks and talked about his book "The Light That Never Dies". It's about the last days of his wife Nancy's life. It so reminded me of this conversation, because he delt with many of these issues. It's on iTunes as a podcast.

One of the things he talked about hit me really hard, he talked about holding his wife in his arms as she took her last breathes. He could only describe it as a "Holy Moment". I think that this phrase many times reflects a Christians response to a tragic moment, as opposed to the worlds. I'm not saying these moments don't have true pain in them, but they are Holy Moments. It got me to thinking of those times when God made me aware that something that was fearful or tragic was especially clear as a Holy Moment. the two that come instantly are when I was called that my son was injured in Iraq, and when I got divorced. Both of them became, after the shock wore off, moments when I just knew God was at work, they were not moments of satanic degradation, but Holy Moments. Times when I knew that God was working to restore, even in the midst of a storm.

Dennis

Kathy, I totally agree with you about your "last resort" comment.  Yet there is a part of me that has been through suffering when I knew I was walking with God. It was almost like He was taking me to that valley for a purpose...oh, and trust me, I have always learned more about Him and His heart in the valley.  This came to mind tonight when I read Dennis' comment. When he got the call about his son, Dennis fell clear into the valley - good news is that the grass is soft.

Sometimes I can really understand David when he describes how God is with him in the battle and with him in the quiet.  Oh, my heart cries out to understand His heart, His ways.  How long oh Lord?  How long until the tears of sadness are gone and only tears of joy are known? How long oh Lord?  Until then, I will praise Him in the storm.

Thank you Kathy for this blog. It continues to wrestle within me. Dennis thanks for your thoughts too. It brought me a different perspective.

Dennis and Voice,  Your depth both invigorates and challenges me.  Although I would never say to another person that I know exactly how they feel, I think I know the kind of experience you are describing.  I remember a moment during my freshman year of college when, due to outside circumstances, I truly wished not to live.  (I was not suicidal.  I just would have considered it a favor from God if I didn't wake up the next morning.)  Amidst that experience, I was overcome with God's presence in the most peaceful and reassuring way, and it was then that I first began to understood what it meant to die to self and live for Christ.  He intervened in my moment of darkness and revealed a part of His plan to me.  A Holy Moment.  And the grass was soft. 

 I Will Praise You in this Storm  by Casting Crowns:  one of the greatest of all contemporary songs!  (Listen from my profile page)  Grace and Peace to you both!

I'd just like to share my viewpoints on these questions.   I hope I'm not repeating what someone else said. 

Where is the justice?

God has to be a pragmatist when it comes to Justice.  If He enacted Justice in every situation, none of us would have the opportunity for salvation.  He'll enact all justice in the final judgement.  When I ask this question, what I really mean is "Why isn't justice protecting me?"  The thing is, God, in His wisdom and insight, isn't enacting Justice on me (I'm going to be saved - that isn't justice).  Do I really want to begrudge God for something I enjoy and appreciate?

Why do bad things happen to good people?  Where is God when life isn't fair?  Where is God when we're hurting?

These are good questions, that deserve more than a flippant answer.  I've heard all sorts of flippant answers: "Why does anything good happen to anybody?", "Who are we to question?", etc...  People ask these questions because they are genuinely hurting.  I think flip answers disrespect the people who are asking.

For me the answer to all these questions is very profound.  On the cross, Jesus took all the suffering each of us should have taken for our sins.  That means the worst things happened to the best Person.  I can trust what Jesus leads me through, because He has suffered so much for me.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."  Romans 8:28

God doesn't promise a pain free life - He just promises to make the pain worth it in the long run. 

Carrie Ann, so good to see you back!  We all go through dark times.  I will pray for you tonight.  And I hope we'll see more of you here!  We've missed you!

Megan, God bless you!  TGBTG!

Behind all the suffering of the godly is a high purpose of God, and beyond it all is an "afterwards" of glorious enrichment. Such suffering as we learn from This Book of Job, is not judicial, but remedial; not punitive, but corrective; not retributive, but disciplinary; not a penalty, but a ministry.

This Book and the central message of Job then may be expressed as: "BLESSING THROUGH SUFFERING" Through bitter calamity comes blessed discovery . The Book is a grand illustration of the Apostle Paul's words. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Get your head around this Gentle Reader, and get a hold of the concept that we are being transformed into very image of Christ who is the fulness of the invisible God.