Believing with your heart is a lot different than believing with your mind, though.  It's a LOT different.

And tougher for a lot of us. 

Mike -

That's the big QUESTION that seems to be floating about MyChurch the last week or so:

(and it's kind of a chicken or the egg question, when you get down to it)

Can you sin after you are SAVED?

If you can SIN, but being saved is being FREE from sin, how can you do it?

If you do, are you really saved?

How far can you GO before you're a sinner again?

OSAS?

Oh yeah, it's a tough question, and even the LOGICAL types can have problems with it.

If being IN CHRIST means we are free from sin , the  (the computer /math geek in me) says that SIN is not part of the SET "SAVED" (it just doesn't EXIST in that UNIVERSE, if you will).

But we know that TEMPTATION does still.

So, where do we stand if we stumble?

So many think that those of us that worry about STUMBLING are doing so out of some distrust in the Lord.  But I just don't want to stumble close to the edge of a cliff, if you follow. 

;) 

Mike man......what are you trying to do? Give people a license to sin?

You know I'm completely kidding here. People are doing a pretty good job of sinning without a license!

And you also know that I am grace believer. I even take this one step further to say that sin is no longer the issue with God. God is not counting, or imputing our sins against us.

Unless of course you are talking about the sin of not believing on Jesus. People wont go to hell because they are murderers, or liars, or thieves, or adulterers, or for any other individual sins. They go to hell for not accepting the payment that was already made on their behalf.

I love this verse:

Notice in verse 8 that sin is singular. Not all our sins, nor every sin we commit, but the sin. and then in verse 9 He tells us what that one sin is. Not believing in Him!

Sounds to me like you have completely opened the can of worms here Mr.  Mike!

Praise the living God!

Great comment, Pastor Tim! “For it is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure” i.e. can't DO it myself! With this scripture you've hit a home run! (Well, ok, so Wiersbe hit it, but you put him up to bat.)

The formula for works seems to be: (1) trust in God, (2) he comes to live in you, (3) then he uses you to do the works. Therefore the problem (if there is one) is not that you or I aren't doing the works God supposely requires, BUT that we haven't yielded to the Spirit. Is that about right?

I am afraid too many of us are MORE concerned about the lives other people lead than whether or not those same people actually start developing a rich and meaningful relationship with God.

   Great post Mike! I know for myself it wasnt till I humbled myself before the Lord that I was saved! I know I was chosen. In recovery I hear from many people how us drunks/drug addicts are the chosen few. YES it seems more homeless, addicts/alcholics & prostitutes and thieves  are saved. Many are to intellect to be saved, they  question God and twist it , IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! How can they confess thier sin if they think they dont have any? hmmmmmmmmm

well when I read this I went to Psalm 18

Is VERY grateful today! Thank you Jesus! Thanks again Mike! boy do I get a lot out of your posts!Have a Blessed day and Blessings for your family!!

Greetings Amazing Creations:

Interesting days for this particular subject matter!

I can only humbly offer just a few of the words that Jesus spoke about this subject:

Matthew 3:10

 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:19

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 16:24-27

 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 3:1-3

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:15-18

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

We are Saved by a Grace that Jesus himself equates to a manifested action of that faith.

So simple, beautiful, and essential.

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Greetings Dearest Mike:

Indeed. Indeed!

A quick look at the darker side of "works".

Much worse imho than a salvation attempted to be gained via works or that a purported leadership describe as the priority factor to salvation, is the following:

Matthew 23

Particularly:

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

This we witness today in its full inglorious corruption.

Well done.

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

 I agree with Jonathon, Always live each day as if it is your last! it may weel be/

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Thanks for the comment, KY_lady, your view is appreciated and respected. Clearly faith w/o works is dead, a useless faith if it is faith at all. Works is indeed a useful indicator of salvation, though not a determinant of it.

(Eph 2:8-10) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

See that? Clearly salvation causes works, not vice versa. But does an absence of works always mean no salvation? I am not convinced that this is so!! (However, I would be nervous if this were the case!)

I would be nervous also. I think you can be saved and have little works, but I think maybe the bigger the works the closer the relationship is between you and God. I'm sure he will let us know when we get there if we did enough works for him. After what Jesus has done for us, we should be more than happy to do works for him and to let people know what he has done for us.

Toni <>< 

Thanks Toni! Yes, works are important. The sola fide ("faith alone") crowd rarely denies this. But the problem comes when people insist that works are what is necessary for salvation. If you ask me, a life w/o works is also a life w/o faith. Build the faith, and the works will come!

(I'm surprised how many Protestant Christians continue to struggle with this whole concept)

Have never seen that, Jonathan!

I must amend a sentence I just wrote previously. Rather than making the blanket statement "a life w/o works is also a life w/o faith", allow me to rephrase to a life w/o works is often a life w/o faith.   Are we going to damn all those who suffer from Alzheimers, they certainly don't show a life of works. How about the mentally retarded? If works are necessary, they are all goners. Children who die, their lives are not characterized by good works unto the Lord. Just a few examples there. So "a life w/o works is often a life w/o faith" is a FAR more truthful assertion.

Legalists show a lack of basic understanding of God’s grace, the giving of blessings undeservedly, by insisting that folks do all they can to deserve those blessings. Consider the attitude of the prodigal son’s brother, for example.

I stumbled across a previous blog I wrote in the ol' archive, and thought I'd link it here as I think it may be relevant...

Missing the point once again

Phil, I can only imagine the time it took you to write all of this. Thank you for your efforts! I must also say, I agree w/all the points you addressed to me. In fact, I may have actually been attempting to say the same thing you did, only I am far less precise in my wording plus lack the formal education that I suspect you have. Nevertheless, I am humbled by your contributions here, and very grateful. Thanx brother!