CORRECT !!!!!  If you can't take it then don't give it.....  Constructive criticism is one thing, pride and arrogance is another....

Thank you Linda, bless you sister!!

Cinderelly, thanks! And I loved that post, now I can see the harmony!

Mary, thank you! Constructive criticism...might be the only kind we're called to give? Who am I to put anyone in their place? And yet, I've made that mistake. :-(

MaKelly, you are a dear! (But I think I'll leave that job to your wonderful son!) 

Todd, I appreciate your comment! And just to show you that I'm open to correction, pastor, can you offer some scripture which says equals should be correcting equals, and if so, how? Thanks!!

Am I hearing you correctly? Did you just say "even the correctors are in need of much correction"?

Reminds me of the fact that often the student becomes the teacher!

That was kind of a lame comment on my part, I know. But you know me Mike, I always get a lot from your blogs. It's just that right now I am bogged down in numbers. Numbers that don't seem to be working out so today I am the Data Corrector!

Later my friend!

Like the blog! did real good a writin this here one(and do not try and correct my grammerHA)

hehe, who am I to correct, Patti! lol

Michael, not as lame as you think. It is a wise teacher who recognizes he can learn from his students! Hey, I've even learned from my kids. Just not the way they think, lol!

Thank you Loriinfj! I'll be willing to bet many parents will identify. And yet again, by becoming parents, we see analogies of the Kingdom! 

Amen Margie! And you've posted a great scripture which shows that only certain people are called to be the "correctors" of the body...

4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints...

Blessings and love to you, sister! 

 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.   Jesus lays out the priciples for correcting one another.  He did not instruct us not to correct one another, but He gave us the “How to’s.”

Galatians 6:1
[ Doing Good to All ] Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Of course this could mean not an equal that if I am “spiritual” and my brother is “carnal” but I will leave that up to you to decide.

Thank you Marilyn, your input is so appreciated! Sounds like you are saying it is possible, though rare, that God will call us to "correct" a brother (or sister). I'll tell ya what though, I look around and see a whole lotta correcting going on, LOL. It ain't good either. Fewer people should presume to be God ordained correctors, and simply lead a life of example within their sphere of influence. IMHO that is... Again, great comment Marilyn!  ps... THANX for the profile comment this morning, I'm a punk for not messaging you a thank you!

Thanks Todd, and make no apology bro! (I mean pastor, lol.)

If I may add my take on the scriptures you offered. The Galatians scripture is probably the strongest of the three at making a case that we should be correcting our brothers and sisters, though it still hints at a spiritual hierarchy --- only those clearly more mature should be offering "correction". To be honest I expected someone to pull out Luke 17:3, though I believe this refers only to special cases when someone specifically sins against you, as opposed to apparent general incorrectness. And regarding Matt 7, this scripture appears to be urging just the opposite. It says to clean up your own act before presuming to work on fixing your brother. And those of us humble enough to admit it will tell you that this is a lifelong process.

I actually offered my perspective on Matt 7:3-5 here: A new perspective on the log in my eye 

Paul actually gave (pastor/ordained teacher) Timothy some advice on correcting:

Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.  (1 Tim 5:1-2; in other words, even though Tim was in a position of leadership and authority, i.e. superiority, he was advised not to act like it!! And given the way Paul exhorted Timothy in his letters, I believe Tim was VERY humble, almost to a fault.)

That's my take, though I could certainly stand to be corrected! lol  Thanks for your posts Todd, your input is among the most valued! 

Great blog Mike! This reminded me of when I was in high school.  My entire life was a mess in high school. The youth elder took me under his wing and was a HUGE support during those days. He was an older man around my parents age (60's). He didn't have to correct me but his example not his words straightened me out. Being around him changed my life because he not only loved Jesus, he also lived for Jesus. I always tell people that the strongest argument for Christianity isn't preaching though that is neccessary; it is a life that has been genuinely tasted of the grace of God. I'm not discounting the place of preaching but rather pointing out the fact that we as Christians should live what we say we profess. The example of the youth elder changed my life and that is the kind of life that will bring glory to God, and bear MUCH fruit for God's kingdom.

 Also, the Lord may lead some to correct in relation to church discpline. Personally I prefer it if church discipline is excercised within the local church setting and by Pastors.

 The following is from some sermon notes from a sermon I preached on 1st corinthians 5 that give context to what I'm saying:

The church’s responsibility is to discipline is members while trusting the Lord to judge the world (Matthew 13:30). As Christians we are to distance ourselves from the person who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sins explicitly forbidden in Scripture by rationalizing his or her actions. By rationalizing sin, a person harms others for whom Christ died and dims the image of God in himself or herself. A church that includes such a person is hardly fit to be a light of the world. To do so would distort the picture of Christ it presents to the world.

Church leaders must be ready to correct, in love, for the sake of spiritual unity. The Bible consistently tells us not to criticize people by gossiping or making rash judgments. At the same time, however, we are to judge and deal with sin that can hurt others. Paul’s’ instructions should not be used to handle trivial matters or to take revenge; nor should they be applied to individual problems between believers. These verses are instructions for dealing with open sin in the church by a person who claims to be a Christian and yet who sins without remorse. The church is to confront and disciple such a person in love. In a world today that is full of self and not of God church disciple is something that many churches have forgotten about. The church at all times must exercise discipline towards members who have sinned. But church discipline must be handled carefully, straightforwardly, and lovingly. The following Scripturally are situations that demand that church discipline be exercised. Situations: Unintentional error and/or private sin. Public sin and or those who done flagrantly and arrogantly. Steps Matthew 18:15-17 1. Go to the brother or sister; show the fault to him or her in private. 2) If he/she does not listen, go with one or two witnesses. 3) If he/she refuses to listen, take the matter before the church. After these steps have been carried out, the next steps are: 1) Remove the one in error from the fellowship (1st Corinthians 5:2-13) 2) The church gives united disapproval, but forgiveness and comfort are in order he/she chooses to repent. (2nd Corinthians 2:5-8). 3) Do not associate with the disobedient person; and if you must, speak to him or her as one who needs a warning. (2nd Thessalonians 3:14, 15). 4) After two warnings, reject the person from the fellowship (Titus 3:10).

 PD

Todd, thanks bro :-)

Honestly, I wouldn't presume to correct you (at least not overtly), but your humility is deeply appreciated. =)

Grant, you're among those I would least expect to need correction. But I also know you to be deeply humble, in addition to being exceedingly gifted in the area of teaching. Thanks for the "amen"! :-)

Pastor Dave, awesome comment! Pure wisdom!

I'm proud to say that your sermon notes line up well w/this blog.You wrote, "Church leaders must be ready to correct". Yep, the job of leadership, or those with specific authority. However it is indeed appropriate within the role of lay person to a) distance themselves from sin, b) point out clear sin, c) recognize or be observant of clear sin, and d) QUESTION possible sin. Maybe more too, but that's all that comes to mind.

I appreciate that you've carefully outlined the steps for discipline within the church. I might add, it is my feeling that church discipline is most appropriately handled within the local bodies. It would not be my place, IF I were a pastor/elder of my church, to attempt to discipline someone from another local church body. Again that's just my feeling. Thanks for your input, it's HIGHLY valued!

Mr. Mike...Correct me if I am wrong here...but I think the wisdom runs deep in you! (and I don't expect correction) This a great word...great comments...don't think I need to add to or subtract from in any way! Thanks for the blessing!

Tam, wow I bet you have seen it all as a pastor's wife! Bless your heart! Yes, we MUST acknowledge that God alone is the revealer of truth, and the CORRECTOR of the brethren!!!

Thanks KC Joe! It is good to be back, and refreshed at that. And thanks for your great example of humility, Joe. Most people would not be so quick to admit they have areas that need work in their lives. 

And thank you too Cathy. The word repeatedly says the Lord, our Father, corrects his children. So when it comes, I'm sure it will be for our own good!

Deb, amen! Our experiences can teach us valuable lessons, and I hope others could learn from them too rather than learning from their own mistakes all the time.

Sister Lara, great comment!  (1 Tim 5:19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.) This appears to refer to blatant wrongdoing in a church, rather than everyday correction, given Timothy's leadership position and the pretense for Paul's letter to him. I appreciate your points related from personal experience. What better teacher is there???

Ms Suga, my sister and friend. Thanks for voicing your sentiments! 

Well, I think everything I would have wanted to say has been said.  Great blog & comments.

Pastor Tim, I could not agree more. One has to willing to receive correction for it to be helpful, given the voluntary nature of accountability groups it seems like a perfect fit. 

world love - appropriate comment given the name you go by on here :-)

Yes Charlie, pride is a serious issue. And yes, God can speak through critical, self-righteous individuals, just as he spoke through a donkey. God's will was also accomplished through Pontius Pilate, Pharaoh, and others who were not cooperating with his will. But just b/c God can speak through a presumptive individual, doesn't mean that is necessarily the way the body is supposed to function, does it?

I suppose it would be easy for me to make the blanket statement that it isn't anybody's place to correct anybody else, unless they take on an authoritative role in which correction of the body is a responsibility. However, I don't believe we need to be so rigid. Yes, occasionally one lay person is called on by God to deliver a message of correction to another, but I believe this is RARE.

Often, presumptive correctors superimpose their own thoughts, feelings, interpretations, biases, past histories, predjudices, etc. onto God's word, then attempt to "correct" others to their way of thinking. Or even if they do accurately present God's word of "correction", they often do it according to their own timetable rather than God's! Doing the right thing at the wrong time is still sin, and can be very hurtful. I would rather we assume it isn't our job to go around "correcting" others, except in special cases, than go on believing it's ok for us all be looking out for people to correct. 

As I said above, who is more prideful, the person who presumes to correct when it isn't their role to do so (like my kids), or the person who responds defensively to "correction" from an unexpected source, then is accused of not having a "teachable spirit". 

I'm rambling. Thanks for the input Charlie. I appreciate you bro! 

Joey, in trouble? No way. Have you just corrected me? Well then, possibly.

I'm glad to hear you stand ready for correction. Most people do not, as proven by their reactions when it comes. True, that doesn't necessarily mean the words that come are a bad thing. My whole point with this isn't to cease all corrective interactions among the brethren, but to make us pause, and then pause again, and maybe pray on it for a week or so, before presuming to correct a brother or sister. In general, I think that I can safely say that it isn't our place. It is amazing how much "self" correction can actually take place within a lively and intimate relationship with God. 

God bless you sister, and may HE be the one to do most of your correcting! 

Now Mike, you know I wasn't correctin' you.  You are sassy!  That is why we love you so much. 

And yes, I do get corrected alot.  God knows me inside and out.

Me too, Joey!

Re-reading that comment to you, I see that it's a great clarification to the blog...so I will repeat it:

My whole point with this isn't to cease all corrective interactions among the brethren, but to make us pause, and then pause again, and maybe pray on it for a week or so, before presuming to correct a brother or sister. In general, I think that I can safely say that it isn't our place. It is amazing how much "self" correction can actually take place within a lively and intimate relationship with God!

(this is posted w/love for all the saints who read it!) 

Titus 2:11-3:11

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Avoid Dissension
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
NKJV
Titus 3:1-7

Some Christians think they will accomplish their purposes by arguments, and in v. 2 Paul warns against spreading lies with evil intent and starting fights. "The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God" (James 1:20, NKJV). Gentleness and meekness can be stronger than even political power. Christians depend on different weapons as they fight sin (2 Cor 10:1-6). The believer knows how to trust God to fight his battles after he has done all he can (Rom 12:17-21). Meekness is not weakness; rather, it is power under control. Jesus was meek (Matt 11:29), yet He knew how to exercise power.
(from Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament. Copyright © 1992 by Chariot Victor Publishing, an imprint of Cook Communication Ministries. All rights reserved.)

Well, not exactly, but sort of... (lol, how's that for being hard to pin down!)

All I was trying to say in my previous comment was, we have to consider who Paul was speaking to before we apply his message. If he is writing to a leader in the early church, then there may be guidance that is specific to those who are ordained or appointed (or elected) to leadership in the church. Context is important to interpretation, right?

For instance we read in Titus 2:1-2, "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance." Obviously, since Paul is writing to Titus, a teacher/pastor, this admonishment applies specifically to folks in the recognized role of a teacher/pastor. Likewise IF Paul writes to Titus, "correct the brethren whenever they depart from the truth", we should consider the context and not presume Paul's words entirely apply to each of us and go correcting everyone.

The principle still applies though, that if we have truth to share, we should share it in love. 

Cathy, I treasure your comments. So glad you returned to offer more! Very enjoyable and enlightening to read what you had to say. In fact you wrote two things that really resonated w/me: "If we would see people through His eyes, and His mercy, we would not be so ready to judge!" This is very difficult to do, and cannot be done w/o the Spirit. I also think that this ability is limited to the spiritually mature, for the most part. You also said "I understand going to someone in love, as a person caring about another." I don't see my kids doing this with each other, and I rarely see grown-up children of God doing it. But it is possible. And I'm sure it's beautiful, when it works. I've seen it work a couple of times, and it was beautiful. In fact, the key ingredient wasn't truth, but love. The truth was there, but it took a back seat to love. Thanks for your amazing input!

Angela, thanks so much.  Lions, I appreciate your comment, and feel much the same way. God bless!

Interesting comment Becky. May I ask whose wrath you are referring to? The wrath of the "corrector"?

Glad you posted! 

Great post Mike, just today, we were laughing because we caught my daughter trying to play my role with her 2 younger brothers. She was trying to tell them what to do, or else. I had to let her know that she needs to come to me and I will take care of it.

Toni <>< 

Here's what I said in my book The Wisdom of Jesus Christ in the Book of Proverbs:

15:5 A fool despiseth his father’s instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

This verse is very much like Proverbs 13:18. The same general point is made about regarding or holding on to discipline and instruction.

Here we learn that the fool’s habit of ignoring or despising discipline and instruction applies to his own father. No doubt the habit has roots in his relationship with his father, which suggests that it began early in life.

The contrast shows us that the prudent or wise person will learn from or hold on to discipline and instruction. We see the same Hebrew words contrasted here as we saw in Proverbs 13:18, and we again treat them as parallel terms. The wise listen to correction and learn from their mistakes, while fools do neither.

13:18 Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.

Proverbs 13:17 contrasts wickedness and faithfulness and applies it to the handling of God’s Word, of delivering God’s message. Verse 18 adds clarification to that contrast. What is the central difference between a wicked person and faithful person? The first half of verse 18 is about the wicked person, and the second half is about the faithful person, although those particular words are not used.

The wicked person refuses instruction, while the faithful person regards reproof. The literal difference between refusing (erp) and regarding (rmv) is the difference between letting go of something and holding or keeping it.

We are tempted to see a contrast between what is let go of and what is held onto because they are not the same words. But, in fact, they point to the same truth and are parallel terms. The truth that they point to is the reality of God’s covenantal love, and His unswerving commitment to instruct, train, correct, chastise, and reprove His people in order to conform them to His Word.

The one person lets go of godly instruction, training, correction, chastisement, or reproof while the other holds onto it. Instruction (rowm—mucar) means discipline, chastening or correction. Reproof (hxkwt) is a parallel term that is defined as rebuke, correction, reproof, punishment, and chastisement. There may be some subtle shades of difference between the Hebrew words, but those differences amount to nothing significant.

We must keep in mind that the discipline under consideration is biblical discipline regarding instruction in covenant responsibility. Without regard for the specific word that is used, discipline, instruction, correction, chastisement, etc. will be exercised with varying degrees of intensity, depending upon the needs of the situation.

The reality is that one person will neglect correction, causing an increase in its intensity because of his neglect. Even when the punishment for his neglect becomes severe, the fool will simply fail to learn or heed the instruction. The wise person, on the other hand, will usually heed it when it is gentle in order to avoid its intensity. But should he fail to learn it when it is given gently, when he finally sees its truth, he will hold on to it even when it becomes more intense and personally discomforting. The fool lets go of instruction or reproof, whether gentle or intense, while the wise man holds on to it, whether gentle or intense.

The insight that it is easier to hold onto a gentle correction than a more emotionally laden rebuke is true. However, it is an insight that cannot be attributed to the Hebrew words involved in this verse. Again, the fool will not hold on to correction, be it gentle or severe, while the wise man will. Fools cannot stand the slightest implication that they may be wrong about the things they value because they value their own opinion above everything. On the other hand, the faithful person invites correction because he values the truth and desires to grow in “the nurture and admonition (or correction) of the Lord” (Ephesians 6:4).

The result of these different actions by these different characters is also quite different. The one who refuses instruction reaps poverty and shame, while the one who holds on to reproof is honored. In other words, poverty stems, in part, from an unwillingness to listen to advice and/or to admit your own faults. To reject criticism is to invite poverty and shame. Similarly, honor stems in part from heeding godly advice from mature Christians.

But this verse is not simply about the unwillingness to listen to advice in general—although it does not discount such an application. Rather, this verse is about the rejection or acceptance of God’s instruction (correction, admonishment, reproof, chastisement). The failure to heed God’s Word is to plant yourself on the wrong side of providence. Things just don’t work out.

But to hold on to God’s instruction, to cling to God’s Word even in the face of your own reproof by it, is to hold fast to a course that is set for your own good, though it may irritate you in the midst of it. To follow God’s way even when it is difficult will ultimately bring honor and respect because God’s way requires truth and justice, employs truth and justice, and produces truth and justice.

Thank you Phil, you've given us some very good material on the importance of instruction and correction. It is difficult for even the best of us to "cling to God’s Word even in the face of your own reproof by it", but we must, in humility, if we're ever to get past our own pride and grow in wisdom.

Mike, I'm trying to catch up on reading, this one was a great read, and great thinking I might add.   Ok, here's my 3cents.....

Your premise regarding Father and child... built upon "relationship" and this is the key.  Our role as Christians should always be built upon establishing "relationship" with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and then with each other.

As it relates to "correction" there are two points of departure, 1. Correction from the premise of "self"   and 2. Correction as lead by the Holy Spirit.  Most people operate from point #1 and often times get into trouble.

However, when led by the Holy Spirit, there is no chance of err because the Holy Spirit knows exactly "the how-to-what-to-when-to say whatever needs to be said for correction because of the "relationship" between parent and child per sa.

Yes each of us stand in need to be corrected from time to time, and each of us if lead by the Holy Spirit will need to correct as the Spirit leads... the problem is not many of us understand the difference between the two.   Just my 3cents.

Pastor Aminata

LOL!!

I have strived my entire professional (read: adult) life to correct others (regardless of their position relative to mine) with humility and in God's grace.   I'm embarrassed to say that I fail more than I succeed.   However, like so many things in my Christian walk, I think I am getting better.  

Thanks for the post.  It is nice to see that my church isn't the only one who has struggled with this issue.   OK, "nice" sounds bad, maybe "a relief", well, no...anyway you get the point.   Thanks!