Repost Article - Please Don't Comment

From time to time I do a little house cleaning on my home page; because there are articles that are more important to me than others. So, sorry for wasting your time, but I don't know of any other way to move them around.

Also, I've deleted all friends on my home page, because I've gotten a little tried of receiving bulletins from people and Churches, that I could not possibly attend. So unless the people are from Denver; I'm going to forego signing on as friends; but please don't take it personally.

Thanks, R... 

Dear Reader: The following is a discussion on the text from 1 Cor. 14.  It reflects how it was originally commented on and is given here to assist anyone who is going over the issue raised in the text.

I was asked, "What do you mean by this statement on your home page, "Premise: From the 1 Cor. 14 model (of having Church), we followed this model of having services and we invited people to share prophesies, and then judged the word spoken, to make sure it was in line with N.T. teachings. As the text (in 1 Cor.14) suggests, 2 or 3 people can add to the main message which is delivered by a Pastor/teacher/evangelist?"

Thanks for the interest. I'll try to break it down, and then add some explanation to it.

First, I had been reading 1 Cor. 14 for a long time (10 to 20 years maybe), I always sort-of wrote the chapter off, thinking it was just about tounges... it had no place in my belief system nor was it something I wanted to investigate or experience.

But one day, as I was reading the chapter, I actually saw it for what it was: Paul was telling the Corinthians what to do (how they were to conduct their Church service). Right here the question began, "could this instruction, that Paul was giving to the Corinthians, be followed in today's Church... and why isn't it being followed?"

Moving on... the next area of explanation: What do I mean by, "share prophesies?"  

Though the text mentions prophets, I don't think it means like the prophets of old that predicted future things. Rather, I believe it means people who were told something from God, that morning, in that Church, so that they could share it... in that Church. 

In the 1 Cor. 14 Church model (or order of service), which ever you prefer, if a person was told something from God and they were convinced it was to be shared with the congregation, they could share it. It might be something that adds to... or punctuates what the Pastor is talking about, or it could be something else.

And now for a question to anyone who might read this blog: While sitting in Church, have you ever had a thought drop into your head, that you believed if you could share it, it might make the application of the thing being talked about more meaningful... and maybe someone in particular, helped? 

Back to the 1 Cor. 14 order of service: The type of prophesy spoken about here, which the apostle says, they all can do (please read v.31 to verify this), is something that encourages or confronts that particular assembly. It probably normaly had nothing whatsoever to do with future events, it would be more about immediate needs in that assembly (in my opinion - because of verse 3 & 4 - please read).

But the big kicker for me is, over the model that is followed today in our Western Church's, many more members could be an active part of the service, by following this other model.

They could exercise their gifts more, practice hearing from God more, and practice telling it to the congregation. This in my opinion would give the body of Christ a better confidence, and it could condition people (in my opinion), to be more active, than inactive, in their Christian walk.

So, could this be God's way to have services, it is backed up by the Bible? And by the way, does anyone know where the model (order of service), that we Westerner's follow today, came from (1 speaker)?

My quess is, it's probably a hand me down from the early Catholic Church.

But in this other model, it wouldn't just be the Pastor speaking for 30 minutes (the monologue), anyone (up to 3 people according to the text), could add a word or idea that they believed God had given them, right then and there. This is what we mean by the term, "interactive Church," because we believe it would be more interactive.

So, what happened to following this model given in 1 Cor. 14? Also the book of Acts reveals something that ties into this. Example: the apostles were asked to share a word, even though they were strangers in that congregation (Acts 13:15). Would this be welcomed in our Church's today? Not by following the model most have in place, in my opinion.

If this troubles you, I want to comfort you, and caution you. I do not mean in anyway to condemn the order of service that is being followed today in our Church's. I love our Pastors and so should you, they are doing the best they can, from what they have been taught and I believe most have a conviction to honor the Lord, and sincerely love people.

Also, I want to include this word of caution: I have found 2 groups that came close to following this other model of Church: the early Quakers and the Plymouth Brethren. Both began well, but both went off track. In my opinion, both did not judge what was spoken, as the apostle instructed, and that caused the problem.

They actually began to elevate the prophesied word, over the written Word, which was the beginning of the end.

I think this is why the apostle, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says, judge what is spoken. Make sure it lines up with the written Word. If what was said does not line up... ask the person to sit down.

Still, this order of service is backed by God's word, yet we do not practice it. Why? If it's because of these early failures, that is not a good reason to abandon the instruction from God's Word. 

Regardless, I hope you will pray about it, think about it, and talk about it.

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1st Comment: Mike n Lau...  February 02, 2007 at 4:52am  
 
Hello NMC! (our former title was New Model Church, now it's just R),  Interesting idea. Funny, as I was reading it I thought about the Quakers, and then you made reference to them further down!

I think there could be several areas of difficulty with this model of doing church. A couple of them might be:
1.)the heart is deceitful above all things, who can understand it? -I quote this because obviously the more folks that are given the floor, the greater the potential for stray thoughts and error to enter into the assembly, and

2.)logistically, church services would grow to be very long, less focused, and less orderly.

But in answer to the question you asked in your post, yes I have had thoughts/inspirations which I believe are directly from the Holy Spirit as I worship. It's AWESOME to feel the communion w/God Almighty. We have weeknight home church (small group, community group, whatever you want to call it) where we share the good stuff God gives each of us personally.

Thanks for your thought provoking blog!

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2nd Comment: Youth Past...  February 02, 2007 at 5:24am  
 
There are two things here I would like to share. The first being, you are correct in how we read the word "prophecy" today. There is no new revelation because we have the completed Word of God. The canon of the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is more of what we would call "preaching" today.

There are two tenses for Greek verbs used in that chapter. The verbs for prophesying, speaking in tongues, are knowon as punctiliar verbs. They have a definite beginning and ending point. The other verb tense is linear which indicates that something has a beginning point, but no end. The verb we see used for saved, saving, is a linear verb.

At the time Paul wrote his 2nd letter to the Corinthian Church, the New Testament Canon wasn't finished. They had copies of the epistles, but no book of Revelation, nor all of the Gospels. And at this time, we still don't see them gathered together as one book.

The pattern for service comes from your Bible. If your search the OT, you see how the priest stood above the rest, read from the Bible and then expounded on what he had read. Nehemiah Chapter 8 is a good place to read about this. In the NT, you see the same, with the repeated mention of "they reasoned." I think you bring out an interesting point. Most interesting!

Keep in mind, in that same chapter you referred to, Paul commands women to keep silent in the Church. The men were usually the ones discussing the words they had just heard. There was also a problem in the Corinthian CHurch with people abusing the gifts to make themselves more seem more spiritual. Much like you see today.

If you, we, could control who was to speak- I don't see how this would contradict the Bible. Another problem that I see is that Paul warns us to try the Spirits. Do not think for a minute that demonic spirits cannot enter into your Church. If they can enter in, they can enfluence members. You can see how this would present a problem.

I'll second the previous post, Thank you for a thought provoking blog, also.

Brother Chris

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1st Reply: from R  - February 02, 2007 at 7:05pm  
 
First, Thanks to all of you for entering into a discussion with us, on this topic.

Next, I'd like to comment on what you wrote verbatim:

First Mike and Lu, you said, "I think there could be several areas of difficulty with this model of doing church. A couple of them might be: 1.)the heart is deceitful above all things, who can understand it? -I quote this because obviously the more folks that are given the floor, the greater the potential for stray thoughts and error to enter into the assembly..."

My response to Mike and Lu: 1. According to the text, the things spoken would be judged by the people... and to think that anyone could say something more damaging than the TV and movies that people watch, is pretty unlikely. Also, the text says up to 3 people only would be allowed to speak... and this would be under the direction of the Pastor/leader.

Mike and Lu said, "2.) logistically, church services would grow to be very long, less focused, and less orderly."

My response to Mike and Lu: Pot roasts still burn, no matter what model you follow! So, having a set closing time would be a necessity. As far as the rest, the apostle does not condemn this order of service, he actually seems to be approving of it.

Next, and I saved the best for last (in my opinion). Mike said, "But in answer to the question you asked in your post, yes I have had thoughts/inspirations which I believe are directly from the Holy Spirit as I worship. It's AWESOME to feel the communion w/God Almighty. We have weeknight home church (small group, community group, whatever you want to call it) where we share the good stuff God gives each of us personally."

My response to Mike and Lu: That is great! Now imagine when the whole assembly is gathered together, like the text says. ~ Could you see yourself expecting and then receiving a thought from God that said something like this, (example): I want you Mike to stand and say this to the congregation: "there is someone here today that is contemplating suicide (for example), and God has told me to beg you not to do it... He loves you, I love you and there are people here who will help you, will you let us help you?" and possibly as the text suggests, he will fall down upon his face and will declare that God is certainly among you. ~ Might then the pastor see fit to pray or somehow to continue to minister... maybe asking others to quietly pray or sing?

This is the kind of example that I can imagine. And my wife and I have actually seen this kind of thing; but not as serious. We practiced this model for about 2 years. It wasn't until some life changes occured, that the group disbanded in 2006. But we long to do it again, we really believe in it.

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Next Brother Chris,

As much as I know you are a student of the word, you talked over my head. And as we stated in our profile, I have no formal degree. Regardless, I will try and make a few comments on what you wrote.

Chris (Youth Past...) wrote, "the pattern for service comes from your Bible. If your search the OT, you see how the priest stood above the rest, read from the Bible and then expounded on what he had read."

My response to Chris (Youth Past...): Since we are under the New covenant and the old covenant was to the jews, I think we would be better to follow what the apostle instructs the Corinthians, troublesome or not. And since we have the mind of Christ and 1 John 2:27 says the Spirit is the only one we need to teach us, this evens the playing field over what they had been following before; because the Spirit had not been given to all; like He has now.

But as I suggested earlier, probably the greatest reason Westerners follow the model of service that we do, is because it's easier and less confrontational.

Chris (Youth Past...) wrote, "If you, we, could control who was to speak- I don't see how this would contradict the Bible. Another problem that I see is that Paul warns us to try the Spirits. Do not think for a minute that demonic spirits cannot enter into your Church. If they can enter in, they can enfluence members. You can see how this would present a problem."

My response to Chris (Youth Past...): Again, I don't believe the people would be under any greater danger than they are already in. ~ Most only come to Church for an hour, so where and what are they doing for the rest of the time? But point well taken, it does follow Paul's advice, judge what is spoken.

Thanks be to God,

R...

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3rd Comment: Youth Past...  February 02, 2007 at 8:18pm  
 
Appreciate your response. To address the comment about the Old Testament, everything in the Bible may not be written to us, but it is written for us and is therby applicable. Remember, "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is applicable...".

The wonderful thing is that Jesus said He will build his Church. I do think as Christians, we should be Christ followers. The only admonishment Paul sends our way is to keep the Gospel the Apostles delivered. I think if a church model is Biblically sound, then the method shouldn't become a stumbling block.

I think your question presents a viable model for a Local, New Testament Church. I don't agree with everything this guy says, but I like Rob Bell's ideas in founding Mars Hill. They have a website.

You know, I believe the Church is experiencing birth pains right now. And what is about to happen, in my opinion, is that we will see a return to true NT Christianity. Again, enjoying this post. Thanks for making me think.

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2nd Reply: from R - February 03, 2007 at 8:52am  
 
Hi Chris,

This is long, but what do we expect the things of God to be, Quick one liners?

First, thanks for continuing to discuss this, many things tie into one another (e.g. one Vine, many branches), and I hope we don't share to the point we exhaust each other (or possible readers). 

It's sad that people can talk about Sports, politics, all day long, but when it comes to the things of God... it's like they only have a few cell minutes left!

But not me brother, I love finding out who God says we are, and I don't punch the time clock in and out with God anymore. I'm very excited to find out who He says we are, (New creations, in Christ Jesus), and I love sharing it and finding out more!

Transformation: the blog started out on one topic, but now it's branching out, because of what Chris (Youth Past...) said. He said, "everything in the Bible may not be written to us, but it is written for us and is therby applicable. Remember, "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is applicable...".

R's... looong reply: The NKJ doesn't use the word applicable, but I think I undestand what you mean, there are indeed things we can glean from the Word, even if it's on the otherside of the Cross. And this brings me to the branch in the blog. Doing the next thing, as Elizabeth Elliot would say.

It's true... not everything in the Bible is written to us, and even to acknowledge that, is a Big Deal. Not many see this distinction. Many people think everything is written to them. I know you know this verse, but I want to write it out, so that possible readers will have it available, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim.2:15)."

When I break this verse down comparing it to other New Testament principals, this is what I believe Paul is saying... in the word of God, there are divisions to be made, you can divide it, and it should be divided. The greatest dividing line is the Cross. Before the Cross, Jewish law reigned and it is their history, but we can glean things from it, as you and Paul have said.

Secondly, what I believe Paul is saying (knowing that He is the apostle to the Gentiles), is to acknowledge the New Covenant. The Cross is the all important dividing line for us Gentiles, in the Word of God.

Many people write about the mixture between the 2 covenants, and it adds to alot of confusion, it keeps people in bondage to the old man (at least his thinking), instead of putting on and behaving like the New man, created in Christ Jesus. I have a tape and booklet on this by the late Dr. Charles Halff titled, "The Law of Moses and the Grace of God." People might still be able to get it, it comes from Messianic Perspectives Radio Network - PO Box 345 - San Antonio, TX 78292. It's definately worth a listen.

Anyway... how many people recognize divisions (dispensations), and can anyone share how they see a division applied, in the Word of God (how what is written on one side of the Cross, trumps what is written on the other)?

I'd like to share a real barn burner with you (and possible readers), and that is the division that I see in Matthew 6:14,15.

Matthew 6:14,15 says, "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father (in Heaven), forgive you."

First who is Jesus talking to and who did Jesus say He was coming for? Answer: the Jews. ~ Next, when is he saying it, before the Cross or after it? Answer: Before the cross.

With this in mind and knowing more about what's on the other side of the Cross, this then, is the full meaning today (especially towards Gentiles): Jesus is saying the Matthew text, strictly to the Jews, living under the law. He doesn't mince words, He says very matter of factly, if you Jews will not forgive someone who has wronged you, don't expect the Father in Heaven to forgive you. 

But what happens to us Gentiles on the otherside of the Cross? Must we forgive, to be forgiven by God?

Answer: No, and this is what is said on the otherside of the Cross. "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners (we were unforgiving), Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies (and unforgiving toward God and man), we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (Rom.5:8-10)."

Now, am I (R...), saying we should not forgive others? No!, I am not saying that. We should absoulutely forgive others (if they repent). ~ But what was being said in Matthew and what is being said today on the other side of the Cross is different. We do not forgive others to be forgiven by God. That work has been completely done by God Himself for us, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But now I want to ask a question of any reader: Do you see this difference? Do you see what Jesus said to the Jews on one side of the Cross, is now different on the other side?

I wish I had a dollar for everytime (over forty years), that I heard Matthew 6 applied to Gentiles living on the otherside of the Cross, to condemn them and spread fear in their hearts. But this is not the motivation to forgive, some do not righlty divide the word of truth.

We (the born again), love and forgive because He did the forgiving and loving first. "In this is love, not that we loved God (first, or forgave), but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another (1 John 4:10,11)." and "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:18,19)."

Might we touch the hem of His garment together, and explore dispensations?

Blessings

R...

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4th Comment: Youth Past...  February 03, 2007 at 9:47am
 
Again, I'm with you. I believe that if you look at the totality of Scripture, you see the same idea and the same principle woven throughout. Jesus said, "By this shall all men know you are my disciples if you have love one for another." That goes right along with everything you just pointed out from the writings of John.

My opinion: (I try to make that a very clear distinction when I dialogue with people about Scripture) When I read from "the model prayer" about forgiveness, I see a pattern that true Christians are to follow. If we are to follow Christ, who asked that we should be forgiven before we were born, then we too should forgive people. I feel it would be a double standard to ask my sins be forgiven then not forgive someone who has wronged me.

To me, it all points back to Love. I do not like it when people take verses out of context and use them to "condemn and spread fear". That is legalism to me. This whole thing, the Christian life is about God's Grace expressed through us by showing love one to another. How are we going to reach people if we don't first love them.

I did check out your website. I like the idea of house Churches. It's Biblical. But, I have to tell you the one thing that really makes me like it is this: I just returned from a Mission trip this past summer and God opened my eyes to so much. Why is it things are accepted on the foreign Mission field, but not here in America? Today, thousands will gather in house Churches in China, sadly, many will die doing this. It is accepted there, but not here. Brother, you reach peole for Jesus however you can. Just adhere to that Gospel.

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5th Comment: Charlie  February 13, 2007 at 7:15am  
 
I can offer a perspective from one (of many) who have been practicing one form or another of this for close to 30 years. It is possible and very rewarding and I believe God likes it too :).

The goal is NOT how to have a "meeting." It's about discovering God through an intimate relationship and discovering others with that same longing, then going about your day to day life living it.

Sometimes when you get together with others to enjoy the Lord and share your adventures, you might find yourselves in I Cor. 14. But whatever the case, you should leave encouraged and ready to face the next day.

Charlie
 
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:11

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My most recent inclusion 3-24-07

Hello Reader: Since I've read through this again and it touches on something that is very important to me. I want to punctuate it. Dispensational theology. Are there any on this site that believe in it and are taught it, at your Church?

Regardless, I believe in dispensations and the illustration that I gave from Matthew (above), I believe in and so does the Church that my wife and I attend from time to time. Because of this, I want to staple on this article and ask you to consider it... before responding. Especially if your Church does not practice it, or teach on it. Thanks, R...

Titled: Denomination and Non-denominational Differences...

In just a short time a person who religiously participates on forums and blogs; sees that there is a common thread that runs through all of them: denominational and non-denominational differences (gentle arguments that can lead into fights).

This begs the question (to myself), would I walk into another denomination and fight with the Pastor and congregation, like I have sometimes done on forums and blogs?  Would I have been so bold to say some of the things that I have said, knowing that Chuck Norris is getting upset, and a member of that Church? Doubtful, very doubtful.

Even if these denominations and non-denominations are click-ey. People really do go to that Church, because they believe the things taught there. I want to keep this in mind when I respond to others. How about you?

Also, someone got me to thinking about why Revivals were so short lived?  Could it be that there where denominational and non-denominational differences (gentle arguments that lead into fights), that ended the move of God?  I think so, including the Welsh Revival (just to name one).

So with all this being said, how do we work with it?

Personally: I want to expect wisdom from God to keep me wise enough not to fight fights in congregations that I am not a member of.  I want to choose to leave them alone. It's good enough for me that they are confessing Jesus as Lord, and are standing for the Word of God in the marketplace.

And so I end with this question for any reader to consider, do you think they will throw out the Welcome mat to you, or will they want to throw you out on it?

If out on it... maybe you should consider being happy with the fact that they are confessing Jesus as Lord; and they are a light on that corner (even if it is a little light on this site).

Thanks for reading,

me R...