Thanks Soozanne, we should always examine ourselves very very carefully before pointing out the sin (any sin) of another. Furthermore none of us can change the way the Church is perceived by the world. But we can change how individuals perceive the Church by loving them on a personal level, regardless of what they struggle with, and regardless of how you or I feel about them!

By God's grace I was able to make just such a difference over 3 years ago with a fellow grad student who was homosexual. Now I am in the process of doing it again with a couple of neighbors.  That's just one person at a time, and in their eyes there is now perhaps just one Christian who is joyful, loving and concerned, rather than hateful and judgmental. A small step for us all.

Another piece of this puzzle is, the world (which loves its sin) will continue to portray the Church negatively no matter how hard we try to love the sinner. Jesus, who was Love Himself, was crucified rather than embraced!  It's easy for us to pin that on a tiny group of religious autocrats, but when the time came to release someone the Bible is clear that the name which rang out from the entire crowd was Barabbas, not Jesus. The world loves its own, and when we stand apart from sin (forget about condemning it!) the world sees us as different, and they don't like it!  I am judged by the world even before I open my mouth. So the fact that homosexuals would generally not come near a church isn't solely the fault of the church. 

You've written good words of conviction, and thanks for the love! ~mike

Good Point, Mike.

We are guaranteed to be rejected by the world, no matter what we do.  And the mere fact that we follow Jesus makes us often the "bad buy" in the eyes of the world.  The church as a whole will never be seen in the eyes of the world as something to appreciate.  I like your one person at a time approach very much!

It just hurts my heart when I hear someone who calls themselves a Christian, a little Christ, spew verbal venom regarding people Christ wants so much to be able to call His own. 

I appreciate the reminder that we as The Church will be scorned by the world no matter what we do.  That is very true and one I need to be more mindful of.  I think my greater concern, though, is what God thinks of us as His Church when some of us behave like that.  I know I can't control anyone else, but such behavior does embarass me in front of my Savior when I witness it and say nothing.

This deserves a :D + an ! + a star! Very well said (or written) Soozane!

Cj 

Nice blog Soozanne!  My full name is Suzanne :) 

Anyway,  My brother-in-law is gay and when he came out of the "closet" he told everyone to their face, except for me.  He told my husband to tell me, because he knew I was a Christian and wouldn't "approve."  Much to his surprise, I have treated "them" even better.  While I don't agree with their "life-style", I know that they can only be won over to Christ by them seeing the love of Christ.  The good thing is that they already know how I feel about the sin, so I don't have to say a word.  I just let them see the Lord in me and let God take it from there.  I feel this is a much more effected witness then pointing the finger.  Who receives that???

Great post!

I agree wholeheartedly, The WYATT.  I hope what I wrote didn't lead anyone to think I would condone that behavior.  It is sin and if we know of a brother or sister in Christ actively involved in any sinful behavior, we are obligated as spiritual siblings to lovingly help them turn away from that sin.  The problem for me lies in the fact that God's word, UN-changing and IN-fallible, points out many behaviors that are sin, but the one that seems to get Christians pointing the finger most of all is homosexuality.  Why? 

My Dad (a preacher) used to say it was easy for pastors to preach on tithing because most pastors tithe so preaching about it doesn't step on their own toes.  I think it is easy for most Christians to point a finger at homosexuality as sin because it is one of the few sins most of us don't commit.  Heaven forbid it became popular to be as viscerally judgemental of gluttony or unforgiveness as we are of homosexuality.  They are both sin, but the first two are quietly overlooked at church gatherings while the other is openly discussed and condemned by many Christians.

So I am left with these questions:   Where is the love of Christ in all of this?  What role should Grace play in how we interact with anyone caught up in sin?  Will hellfire judgement turn their hearts to Jesus?  And shouldn't leading them to Jesus be our motivation for any interaction with someone actively engaged in sinful behavior?

My concern is we look upon these people as "Gays" and not human beings, created by God with a purpose to fulfill on this earth.  They will never be able to fulfill that purpose if we begin and end discussions about this issue with only judgement.  Jesus wants them with Him.  They will never be judged into the family; they must be loved in.  It's that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" part of the Bible that has me scratching my head.

I hear you, The WYATT.  I hear you.   

I've got to finish where I started:  What role does grace play in all of this?  How is the love of Christ reflected in us as we approach this issue?  How can we be salt and light to people caught up in this lifestyle? 

Our primary purpose for God placing us on this planet is to point others to Him.  That's all I'm sayin'.

Soozanne, have you seen this blog? I didn't see a comment from you... it may interest you...

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/23906/Silent-Protest 

Hi Soozanne,

Thanks for taking a careful approach on this issue - I've witnessed the breakdown of a lot of Christian community over this!

I've really hesitated to comment on this at all, because everyone is agreeing so nicely, but it's dishonest of me to stay quiet. I do not believe that homosexuality or homosexual activity is a sin. Now, I'm not going to spend ages saying why because I'm not writing this to convince you, or anyone else here that I'm right. I just want to tell you that there is a diversity of opinions among Christians on this issue.

I belong to a church denomination (The Uniting Church in Australia - it's Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists all in together) which accepts gay and lesbian people as members and (in some, but not in all congregations) as leaders and ministers. I know that the related denominations in the USA have the same approach. Our member congregations have struggled a lot over this issue and have found that we don't all agree, but we have "majored in the majors" (to steal a phrase from Mike) - our common belief that Jesus is Saviour of the world is more important than this issue and so we continue to travel together.

Soozanne, I want to applaud you for encouraging everyone to love their neighbours, despite disagreements.  I hope that this discussion continues in such a nice friendly way, even though there are some details that we don't agree on. 

Natalie, may I just ask why your congregation believes that this is not a sin? I mean I am just wondering and I really really would feel awful if I offend you in anyway by asking. I am just wondering if there is a particular scripture that you have interepreted to mean that it is not sinful or if you just believe this because you have prayed and feel that God lead you to believe that such actions are not sinful. Because I am sure that you know that there are scriptures that say that homosexuality is a sin. One example of many being Leviticus 18:22.

I agree with Soozane completely. I believe it is a sin because this is what I learned through God's word but I do not believe that this is a greater sin then any I have commited, because our Lord does not weigh sin and I know that we should show Christ's love to EVERYONE. 

Soozanne:  Thank you for your courage in starting this conversation, and for the gentleness and love with which you are continuing it.  I haven't read all the entries here, but I've read some, and I see you patiently steering the conversation back toward the love of Christ.  Thank you.

CJ: I'm not offended at all by your question and thanks for asking so carefully. Firstly, I need to clarify - there are some in my congregation who believe homosexuality is not a sin, and some who believe it is, which is probably the case for many congregations. I can only speak for myself about what I believe... 

I think the main reason many in the church disagree on this issue boils down to the way we interpret the Bible. I, like you, belive that the Bible is God's word, so let's start with what we have in common. I agree that homosexuality was considered sinful by the community that wrote Leviticus. I also recognise that they considered eating pork to be sinful, and they sacrificed animals to the same God that you and I worship today. They also left grapes on their vines for the poor to take, and didn't eat the fruit of their trees for the first 3 years after they were planted, and didn't shave the edges of their beards. This is just from Leviticus 19. They also held slaves and believed women were unclean when menstruating. The point I'm making is that we do not follow everything in Leviticus and we are a very different community from the people who wrote it. I believe we need to look at more than just a verse here and there, but need to read the whole story. I believe that the Christian understanding of God has changed since the time when Leviticus was written.

I believe that a loving relationship between two men or two women can reflect the love of God just as a loving relationship between a man and a woman can. Equally, some gay and lesbian relationships can be as destructive as some heterosexual relationships. 

CJ, there's lots more to this and I feel like I could write for hours and not explain everything fully. There are lots of scholars who have written well about this; I'm not a scholar, these are the opinions I've formed after reading a lot (the Bible and lots of commentaries!) and praying a lot. You might enjoy the website http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm which has a nice dialogue between Tony Campolo and Peggy Campolo who have different opinions on this issue but still manage to stay married...  and of course I'm happy to talk more about this between us too.

Soozanne, this is so glorifying to our Heavenly Father!!! A loving open dialogue between His children... honoring His 2 greatest commandments (the substance of them all).

God bless you!!!

Natalie,

I have heard that argument before.  Although there are differing schools of thought on this issue, my conviction remains that sexual immorality is sin.  That includes any sexual relationship outside the bonds of marriage, which is to be between one man and one woman.  When I read the Bible, that is what is revealed to me and I must stand by what I believe.

That said, I love you as my sister in Christ and would never want legalism to put a wedge between Christian siblings.  I think you would agree that the overwhelming belief in Christian circles is that the homosexual act is sin.  The only reason I wrote about this at all was not to debate the sin-status of homosexuality, but to make this point:

Each person placed on this planet was put here by God, our creator, for a purpose.  That purpose is to glorify Him and point others to Him.  So, how do we direct others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ if most of our interactions with them are full of judgement and condemnation? 

We are called to be salt and light.  We are to show grace and love.  We are called to speak the truth in love, so I must call sin what it is: sin.   We are called to hold brothers and sisters in Christ accountable, so conversations that confront sin must occur within our Christian family.  Beyond that, judgement is God's territory, not mine. 

Any homosexual knows how Christians generally feel about their lifestyle.  Shaking my finger at them to remind them does nothing but make them less open to the Gospel.  And if I am asked by anyone what my stand is regarding homosexuality, I will not hesitate to tell them.  But I would rather be a reflection of Christ's love than a cheap copy of His judgement.

I think we can both agree on that!

Wyatt,

More flies with honey, babe. 

Breathe.....

You are loved just the way you are.  And so is Natalie.  God reveals the truth to all of us in His time. I have found that the best way to change someone's heart is to pray.  Give it up to Jesus.  Truth can only be recieved willingly, it can't be forced on anyone.  Besides, sin is going to remain as a fatal affliction in this world until Jesus comes, whether you change Natalie's mind or not.  And, even if you were able to sway Natalie's opinion, it wouldn't bring one more person out of that lifestyle.  So, if that's your goal, you're aiming for the wrong bullseye, hon.

Now, be nice to your sister! ;-)

 Yeah, Natalie, Maybe I should not of chose that particular scripture. There are many others and the one from Romans that The Wyatt provided would have been a better way to go. I could have for seen your argument, because It is the same one I used to use when I was defending tattoos. However, Leviticus is the ONLY place in the bible that tells us that beastiality is a sin. Are we to assume, that under your argument, that beastiality is not a sin because these scriptures were not meant for us?

 As for your comment that you feel that a loving relationship between two men and two women can reflect the love of God. I would have to disagree with you very strongly. I do not claim to know how the Lord feels or thinks, but I believe that He would see this as a mockery. He created us so that only together could we procreate. One man and one woman. That makes me believe that it is important to Him that each man have a female companion, which we learn in the story of Adam and Eve. God is all knowing, so of course He knew that our society would progress to this type of thinking. If He had wanted us to accept homosexuality as loving relationships equal to that of a man and woman, wouldn't He have created man and man or woman and woman with the ability to procreate? If this was not a sin, and He did intend for homosexual relationships, then that would mean that we are imperfect creations. I refuse to believe that anything God made is imperfect. But this is all just my opinion. Thank you so much for understanding that I was not attacking you with my question and for taking the time to respond. Just as Soozane says, I love you as my sister in Christ no matter what! :) God bless.

Cj 

I have truly enjoyed reading this blog.  Soozanne, I absolutely get what you are saying.  Love the sinner, hate the sin.  Leave the judgement to God and love as Christ loves.

I've always taken issue with people who say "it was just a little sin" - sin is not an extra value meal, it doesn't come in a Super Size!  (The flip size of that is I've heard people say "I'm not as big a Christian as you" - if there were different sizes of Christians then I do want to be Super Sized - but that's another blog...ha,ha)

Thanks for sharing with us!

Soozanne: I agree with you absolutely. I didn't write my beliefs here because I want to argue (I don't think that's in the spirit of MyChurch), but because I think it's important we acknowlege that, just as with many other issues (like women in leadership, huh?) there's diversity of opinion in the church. I think that, for one who believes homosexuality is a sin, that your attitude is great.

Cj: Thanks for your comments - I'm really enjoying our conversation, and I hope we'll learn more about God from each other. I have some problems with the idea that sexual relationships can only be procreative though - where does that leave the infertile couple? I think God created us to enjoy food, music and sex for more than nutrition, worship and procreation; we're created with the ability to enjoy. But more to the point, I'm interested in what you've said about not believing that God has created anything imperfect. This is a new thing for me. Can you say some more about that?

Wyatt: I understand where you're coming from, and I know there are many in the Church who agree with you. I can see that this issue is really important to you and it's clear that you do care about what I believe. That's great. I'd like to talk about it, but it's hard for me to listen when you are so angry. If you'd like to talk about it some more, please speak to me in a calm, prayerful manner and I will do the same for you. I'm not here to argue.

Thanks Natalie, I really do appreciate how kind you are, and am enjoying our conversation as well. I am not sure exactly how you are comparing an infertile couple to a homosexual couple. Yes, a small number of male/female couples are not capable of giving birth to a child but I don't think that compares to the absolute impossibility of a male/male or female/female couple giving birth to a child. Could that mean that it is not in God's will for that particular couple to have children? But would that mean that He doesn't intend for ANY homosexual couples to have children? Why would He that be what he wants? I also did not say that sexual relationships could only be procreative, I was just saying that the Lord designed us to only be able to procreate in male and female couples. He also tells us that He wants us to multiply. If we were intended to be in same sex couples, then why would we not be able to multiply in same sex couples? That was my only point as to that. I believe that a husband and wife can have a sexual relationship for pleasure rather then procreation, I never meant to say I didn't.

Aside from anything having to do with procreation, what do you think about scriptures that say that it is wrong? I have heard you out on how you feel about the scripture in Leviticus but I already gave you my response as to why I don't believe that command is invalid. I was hoping you would tell me how you felt about that. Also how do you feel about scriptures not in the old testimony that say homosexuality is sinful such as the one in Romans posted by The Wyatt and some others such as these:

Oh, and what I meant about not believing God made anything imperfect, is that I see the beauty in all of creation because I know that our Lord is so absolute in His power that nothing He made is anything but what He intended it to be. :)

 I thank God for your patience and for this conversation because I believe that it is helping us grow in Christ.  You are a wonderful person.

Cj 

Cj: There's a lot in your post, and I'm trying to rush away from my desk for the weekend....

My example from Leviticus was chosen not to go head-to-head on particular passages of scripture; I think Leviticus, and any passage in the old or new testament was written by God-inspired people who lived in a different culture to us. All of us are culture-bound in the way we interpret scripture. Interestinly, and this is an aside, for some reason, homosexuality receives much more attention than the sin of usury (charging interest on loans). Usury is condemned throughout the Bible, and we don't seem to care, because it's so much a part of normal 19th, 20th and 21st century life.

I do not believe that passages equating homosexual behaviour with bestiality or whoremongering (for example) have much to say that is relevant to the gay and lesbian people I know who are in life-long monogamous relationships. 

Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of rape. I know we agree that any sexual activity belongs within the context of a loving relationship. 

Thanks for explaining the imperfect bit - all makes sense now. :-)

Marriage is definitely sacred to God, and any defilement of it is to the great displeasure of the Lord. The same God who said (to Malachi) "I hate divorce" -- btw, God doesn't say he hates many things! -- also described the purpose of marriage as being to create Godly offspring (Mal. 2:15). So the purpose of marriage is explicitly defined, and that would seem to rule out anything other than marriage between man and woman. Also, this passage of scripture was preceded with "this is what the LORD Almighty says," so I don't see how we can attribute its message to an ancient cultural understanding of God.

btw, I apologize for this, but it makes me really sad when folks who chose divorce stand on a soapbox against homosexual marriage. I'm sorry, but I'm just really uncomfortable with that. It brings to my mind the whole log in the eye thing. (NOT that I see anyone here doing it, I'm just speaking generally.)

Wyatt,

It is very clear that this is a hot button issue for you.  I have some of those, too.  My favorite phrase is, "Don't get me started!"  Just remember that when Jesus was confronting or discussing sin, he rarely did it in a confrontational style.  He'd draw in the sand, probably something meaningful to those surrounding him, then say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  I am fascinated by the way he could share the truth in love with those who needed to hear it.  Think about the woman at the well!  He simply asked a question, made a simple statement and something about His presence brought conviction.  We have the Holy Spirit in us, so we have that same ability to ask the question and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.  If Jesus blogged, I don't think he'd type everything in bold, either.  It's like yelling and hurts to read.

One of the only times I can think off the top of my head that Jesus really went off in the Bible was when people were selling stuff in the Temple.  They were actively involved in sin right at that moment.  He flipped out and flipped tables.  I would hope I would react the same way when faced with active sin being treated by the church as acceptable.  I suspect that is how you are feeling right now, but we are not in active sin; we are just discussing how to approach those who are.  Convicting others about what is and isn't sin is really the job of the Holy Spirit.  We can point to scripture and even share our opinion on that scripture, but beyond that, it's God's job to change hearts.  

I agree 100% with your point.  But, as your sister in Christ, one who's been where you are and had to eat more humble pie than I ever wanted to, when discussing an issue such as this with Christian siblings, God is pleased when we approach each other in love and a bit of humility.

You are obviously a passionate, strong young man and I am proud to know we have men of conviction like you serving our country!  I pray your passion can be channelled into an incredible testimony of Godly leadership in your life!  The church needs more men of courage who are willing to step up and lead like Jesus led. 

Being a woman, I can never fully understand the challenges men face in this area.  I did read a great book, written by a MAN that might be of interest to you.  Wild at Heart, by John Elderidge is the book I'm thinking of, although there are others that might be even better. 

How do men submit to God's authority without seeming passive?  What role does agression play in Godly leadership?  Masculine passion was given to men by God for a reason.  I know men are for the most part very dissatisfied with their role in "the church" and I suspect some of that comes from the misconception that Christian men always have to be "nice."  They don't.  But there does need to be a balance between that aggressive tendency and approaching others in love, right?  I have some ideas, but it would be meaningless coming from me.  Any men want to take that subject on as a Blog topic?  I'd love to read your thoughts!

And I'm ready to move on to another conversation!  Y'all are wearin' me out!

It cracks me up to see blogs get started and when it gets "hot", everyone wants to bail and just agree to disagree. Tolerance will send more people to hell than confronting sin for what it is and telling someone. The Bible says, "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them."

Jesus, when preaching what we call the Sermon on the Mount, began a question, "If you being evil..." Now, how's that for addressing someone you want to hear you preach? He also told some that if their righteousness didn't exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees they would not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

I believe the original point was to how we hang up on one sin over another. Agreed. Pulling from this, the homosexuality issue placed light on two views and as soon as one side or the other seems trumped- everyone is tired of the discussion. Folks, sin is sin. No one was telling John the Baptist to "breathe" when he called Herod out for marrying his brother's wife.

Read the letter Paul wrote to one of his Church plants known as 1st Corinthians. There is a man having sexual relations (sexual immorality=homosexuality) outsides of the bounds of marriage. Paul tells them to address it and if necessary remove him. Do you think they were tired of talking about it? Probably, some were. But it was important enough for Chloe to write Paul about it.

Homosexuality is fornication. It is sex outside of the Biblical definition of marriage. To tolerate it rather than confront the sin and try to restore the fallen goes against scripture. If the fallen is not willing to repent, then they should be removed from the assembly. Period. It's not a matter of interpretation.

Sticking our heads in the sand is not the Christian thing to do. Tolerating sin in the congregation is addressed. To the Church at Pergamos:

Sex outside of marriage is called what? Fornication. To the Church at Thyatira:

I feel like if Joel didn't love you, he wouldn't say anything. He loves you enough to tell you the straight facts. I respect that.

Four years ago, I needed someone to tell me I was a sinner. An alcoholic, a drug user, a terrible father, and a horrible husband that partied with homosexuals, fornicators, and adulterers. Did my toes get stepped on? Absolutely! But I thank God someone told me the truth about it.

Love them to Jesus, Amen. But stand firm on the truths of God's word. The world is watching. They are wondering, "If they'll compromise here, I wonder where else they'll compromise?"

YPC, There is a reason that God has called you to be a Pastor.  It is evident in these writings! 

I was thinking to add that although Joel, aka "The Wyatt" may seem to sound harsh, I think it is just that he is passionate about what he believes.  This is a good thing.  The first time you come across him, it does seem overwhelming.  But he does grow on you :)  I have come to respect him. 

Here is the blog when I first had a difference of opinion of him.  But before long I added him as a friend.  I hope you don't mind me saying all of this Joel.  Just let me know if you do and I will edit this post. 

Sue

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/9462/Tongue-on-a-Shelf

Hey, Joel and I don't agree on everything- He's AOG, I'm SBC. But I love him as much as I love everyone on this page!

WebYouthPastor "sounded" a little harsh on one of mine and is now my friend.

Sue, you and I didn't see eye to eye, but I love talking to you over the net.

Some of my best relationships have been forged in the hottest of disagreements.

OK.  Now I'm getting frustrated.  I am not running from a fight, I'm just not interested in the fight you are spoiling for.  If anyone thinks a strong belief such as a firm opinion regarding homosexuality is going to be swayed from a comment on a blog entry, they are kidding themselves.  All we can do is share what God's word says on the issue and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.  We can't force anyone to believe anything.  God Himself gave each of us free will and that is simply how it is.  No amount of ranting and bold print and highlighting every scripture on the subject will force someone to change their opinion.  They know the truth and it is up to each person to accept or reject that truth. 

I'm tired of talking about this because whether or not homosexuality is a sin is not anything that I am interested in talking about.  Yes, we need to confront sin when it is in our faces, but NONE OF US ARE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY!  Scripture is very clear that homosexuality is a sin and I have stated I know it is a sin.  I agree with you, bro! 

My desire, however, when I wrote this blog in the first place was to share thoughts on our primary call as Christians.  To love God and love our neighbors.  That includes people who are trapped in all types of sin, including but not limited to:  Alcoholics, Gossipers and, yes HOMOSEXUALS!!

If you guys want to take this another direction, more power to you.  Just take it somewhere else.  I love you, but I refuse to be dragged somewhere I don't want to go.  I am saying NO.  Please respect that.  

I am absolutely sick of people using scripture as a hammer and not a net.  Enough already!!

Joel: I agree. But most of the homosexuals I witness to understand that fornication analogy where some don't understand the "abomination" term. I explain that later.

Soozane: Me too. The Bible is a sword, not a hammer.

Going back to the original idea of the post, (I have mentioned this on other blogs)- Do you remember when all the hubub came out about General Pace saying that homosexuality was immoral? If you were able to hear the entire interview, he went into detail about soldiers sleeping around who were married and not married, commiting fornication which he felt was immoral. All of the news outlets I saw covered only what he said about homosexuality. That was at the end and after he addressed heterosexual immorality. I think he is a good example of what you were saying.

Yes, the Bible is a sword (and bless God that it is!  He has equipped us well!), but the sword cut the head off this beast about 25 comments ago.  Now all that is happening is the carcass is being beaten to a pulp all these guts and flesh flying around is grossing me out.

I am happy to discuss the issue of how to confront sin.  I am thrilled with pursuing other thoughts that come from this blog, as well.  How can you love someone and not appear to be tolerant of their lifestyle, for example.  How far Grace can take us in a sinful world would be something to explore.

But all of these "homosexual" fleshy guts being bludgeoned in my face is unacceptable. This is precisely the type of behavior that motivated me to write about this issue in the first place.  I started this blog, my name is on it, so please don't beat this issue any more here.  If you must continue, drag the carcass to your house and do it there.  Thanks.

I have obviously missed something.

Forgive me.  I think I wasn't clear.  What I meant was how can you show love to someone when you don't tolerate their lifestyle. 

I don't condone tolerance.  Read my initial post, please.  I explicitly stated I was NOT asking for tolerance.  I can handle the truth.  I love the truth I embrace the truth.  In love.

I am asking that once we state our case, we let God take care of the conviction and repentance part.  That's it. 

I never accused anyone of not loving anyone.  I never accused anyone of "gay-bashing." I am simply pointing out that this conversation is taking a turn that I don't like.  I think I have a right to state my opinion regarding that considering I am the one who started this conversation in the first place.  I appreciate you and your commitment to Christ and our country.  I stated that earlier and I stand by it.  It is very clear to me that this is a passionate subject for you and others.  I stated that earlier, also.  I am grateful to know there are Christian men of courage and passion and I wish there were more men like you in the Christian community.  If I didn't state that earlier, I wish I had, because I mean that, too.  I don't want to disrespect you or anyone else with a passion to share the word of God.  It is obvious to me that you are a good man. 

It's all this visceral pounding of scripture that hurts my heart.  Tell the truth, share the scripture.  If it is recieved, Praise God!  If not, leave it to God. I don't understand the point in forcing the issue when the person isn't willing to listen. 

So, how do we continue to be reflections of Christ's love when those in sin don't repent?  That is my only point.  That is my only question. 

If you want to take the conversation to another level, that's fine.  I'm cool with that.  I just don't want to watch.  Can you respect my position?  That's all I'm asking for.

Please don't accuse me of things I don't believe without asking the questions first.  I only asked everyone to stop this incessant pounding and for that I have been wrongly judged. 

I am with youth paster and wyatt on this. We should not back down from our stand for the truth. That I am afraid, is what is wrong with too many christians today and our sociaty. It seems everyone one wants the christian to tolerate everyone esle but if we stand for the truth and speak the word of God, that is not acceptable and we are veiwed as angry. Accepting a homosexual's lifestye is not helping them. When JESUS met the woman at the well, he told her what her sin was.  He didnt beat around the bush because he thought he would offend her. He gave her the truth and it changed her life. She realized she had a problem and needed a saviour. That is what the good news is. We are sinners and need a saviour.

Oopsie.  And when I said "how can you show love to someone when you don't tolerate their lifestyle."  I meant that as a collective "you", not you in particular. 

One more try:

How can I show love to someone when I don't condone or tolerate their lifestyle?

I think my problem is not that I am tolerant, which I am not, but that I am not always clear when I write.   

KdtW, your comment is a blog in itself!  Loved it!  You should make some changes to make it your own blog and post it!  Lots of wisdom there.

Sooz, I don't mean this is any kind of offensive way at all.  But I learned early on in my MyChurch experience (from the blog I plugged in my May 4, 2:55 comment), that if you post a controversial blog, contraversy will come.  Where there is a difference of opinion in the church, it will be brought forth on this website.  I think this is an excellent blog, but you may want to re-consider the hot-potato topics, if you don't want the heated discussion.  Just a thought, take it or leave it, of course :) 

In Jesus,  Sue 

Soo,

back to the original blog -

Yet we feel perfectly OK waltzing into Sunday morning service knowing we are engaging in sin ourselves.

I find that when I return to things that are of the "old self" - habitual sin and such, I avoid church and fellowship (even screen calls!).  Being around my brothers and sisters in Christ, with the Holy Spirit flowing through them, brings light to the darkness inside of me.  When I am being a disobedient child of God, Light is very much needed.  I have to fight against my soul (mind, will, and emotions) to walk through those doors on a Sunday morning.  I KNOW that conviction will come.  Not like when I sin ("gee, I know this displeases my Father"), but fall on my face repentence...can't get low enough. 

I have a few loved ones (friends and others) that have allowed Satan a foothold in their life - through addictions, constant gossiping, and rebellion to the Truth that they KNOW.  They distance themselves - not because of the judgement of the body, but the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  One friend in particular will tell me - "everybody will be looking at me.  They know what I've been doing."  That's a lie the enemy tells us.  Unless a person has the gift of discernment and a neon sign is flashing "Addict" over their head - most will have no idea what is going on.

The longer Satan can keep us ashamed and beat down, we will hide and lie to keep our secret.  That's darkness.  He uses that to isolate us from the body and eventually from the Lord.

As for a comment someone made about unforgiveness - this is an issue among most church families.  We MUST forgive to be forgiven.  I have heard a sister-in-Christ tell another sister "What you've done is unforgiveable".  No such thing, unless you are God.  How can any of us look at the cross - a PERFECT, sinless man with our filth upon Him WILLINGLY taking it all upon Himself and believe that ANYONE has done something that is unforgiveable?  Please see DC's post

 http://www.mychurch.org/blog/23846/Forgiveness-is-a-very-bright-light 

(next time you think YOU can't forgive someone...read this post)

Is homosexuality a sin?  I think most here agree  - it is - in thought, word, and deed.  But if we who are home to the Holy Spirit - liviing within us - cannot be close enough to those who have this stronghold in their life...how can His Light shine into the darkness?  Truth in love...  Reach out, love, speak Truth - including biblical guidelines for church discipline - just don't expect those who are blinded - to comprehend Truth and spiritual infants -  to eat steak. 

In Christ's love,

Angie

Soo, Don't do that...keep posting.  There are some things (abortion or children with special needs) that I am very passionate about.  To others I may come across as "ugly", but to me it's just a fire burning within me.  Just continue in love.  I have learned a lot from fellow mychurchers...some of which I agreed with, some I didn't...also - I got into a little bit of a heated debate once on mychurch with someone.  I thought the same as you "I'm done!"  Then I found out, through an email,  how the Lord had used my comments to bring about change in the "meanie's" life (just kidding about the "meanie" part).  So, Truth in love...continue...you never know what the Lord will do through you for others...or maybe for you.

Love you sister 

Sorry, stepped out to take the kids to see Spiderman 3.

I want to answer a question Soozane posted earlier:

"How can I show love to someone when I don't condone or tolerate their lifestyle?" You can help meet their needs, but as I mentioned above with Paul's letter to the Corinthians, after the first and second admonition, if a sinner will not repent they are to be removed from the fellowship of the other believers. Also, there are too many people in the world who haven't heard the gospel once to waste time giving it to someone who doesn't want to hear it. Love the sinner, meet their needs if you can. It is through that kind of compassion that you will eventually win them to Christ. Brow beating will never work, you all know that.

I know some of us have more compassion than that. We can't turn our backs on them. But that is what the Bible says. Having fellowship with unrepentent sinners will eventually bing you down spiritually. I know. I have been there.

Soozane: Don't give up blogging! Look at my site and find the blog titled "Differences with my Pentacostal friends" to see how hot some can get. We're all family here...

Yeah, Sooz..I had the same reaction you had when my tongue blog got out of control.  But it just seems like everyone is so cool after the burner cools down.  No hard feelings, Christ love, everything the way God would have things. 

Maybe you could put a disclosure in the beginning of your next blog setting some guidelines for posters??  Just a thought, because we do NOT want to loose you!  Your are a huge asset to MyChurch! 

 

We Need You!

Here's the link: http://www.mychurch.org/blog/12394/Differences-with-my-Pentacostal-friends

With a title like that what did you think this would turn into? Potato Salad? LOL

Just know you are loved and we would defend you to the end!

Remember this: Iron sharpeneth Iron.

I think this potato is more than twice baked. LOL Soozanne continue to blog this will minister to some one and a life will be changed.

Dear sister Soozanne, 

The guiding principle of your blog was/is Christ’s love. There are some comments here that do not reflect that love. I say, let them comment elsewhere and preserve the safe and open dialogue you had going. Open to those that are able to contribute in a Christ-like fashion and safe to all… (readers and commenters). 

Be NOT discouraged. 

God bless you my beautiful sister.

Grace, peace, love,

Joel, why do you think my comment was for you? ;-)

Love to you bro,

Mary Ann

P.S. Is the Doc pregnant?

OK,

After getting some sleep and recieving a few very lovely encouraging private notes, I have made a decision.  I'm not going anywhere.  That would be way too easy.  The bullies would win and I HATE that thought!

As a newbie here, I tried to have an open dialogue, making the assumption that, as Christians, we could talk about anything as rational, thoughtful people.  I was surprised by comments that appeared to be knee-jerk reactions to reading one or two sentences and not reactions to the entirety of the conversation here.  Such rants took this blog to a level that made me uncomfortable.   I didn't want to arbitrarily delete comments because I was hoping that, as rational adults (no to mention Christians), we could step back and remember we are family and we need to be nice to each other.  I hoped such a refocus would be an encouragement to those who were reading the blog, but too shy to comment.  Boy, was I wrong!  Sometimes people have passions that make them blind to how offensive their behavior can seem to others.  As a result, I have created some guidelines for comments on my blog.  They are more for my use as a future reference than anything.

My page and my blogs here are a reflection of me.  They are my property.  They are my home on the internet.  My home here will be open to everyone and I would really love for everyone to come over.  However, if you want to hang out in my house, you will obey my rules.  That is how it will be.  Don't like it?  Write a blog about how obnoxious I am.  That can be your house.  I'm sure you will have many neighbors as I am notorious for setting boundaries that others don't care for.  And even if you decide to build that house, you will still be welcome here.  As long as you abide by my rules. 

My rules can be found here:

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/25120/Guidelines-for-posting-on-Soozannes-Blogs

Feel free to make them your own if you feel they will be helpful.  We are a family here, put together for some unknown reason.  But our purpose must remain the same:

To Glorify God and to Point Others to Him

P.S.  To those of you who took the time to encourage me, both here and privately, I appreciate you.  You have been a reflection of Christ's love to me.  Thank you and bless you.

And Cj, babe.  You are a sweetie pie!  The way you love Jesus and want to be clear on what His Word says is awesome!  The way you ask those questions in love serves as a great example to others!

Just a tweak on points raised here on confronting sin...  The scriptures cited consistently address how the Church should relate to the persistent, unrepentant sin of someone who claims to be following Jesus. It's talking about "insiders" not about those outside the Church. 

Second, what's consistently missing (both here and elsewhere) in our "confronting sinners" is any sense that our hearts are broken by the thought of folks entering eternity without Jesus. An occasional "could someone pass the Kleenex" and a few more tear-stains on these pages would be really refreshing. 

Final point--and this one concerns me most--this site is not firewalled. As the purple sleeping bag proved, Google, and who knows else, picks up what's blogged here. There's a lot of very direct talk that falls under the heading of "iron sharpening iron" but we need to ask ourselves if our tone and content would remain unchanged if we stopped to realize that we're having these conversations in a virtual crowded restaurant. To be blunt, in our desire to teach one another, are we accurately portraying the face of Jesus to the world we claim to care so much about? Judgment and confrontation are one aspect but so are mercy, compassion, healing... Lord, please let our words here reflect the whole of the Gospel.

Wow...I see what happens when I don't check in on a post for a few days...lol...

Everything I would normally say has probably been said (I must admit that I did not read through all the posts), so I'll just add what seems to be two passages I think the Lord would have us remember:

I don't know why those two verses popped into my head here, maybe someone here does...all I can say is that I pray they're helpful to someone reading here.

In His service, and yours,
jason

Hey, I saw something in here about "tough love" and I just wanted to submit this--

"Tough love" to someone you haven't already established an intimate relationship with is nothing more than "tough." 

~mike

This showed up in my inbox, another example of how hard it is to keep the discussion of this subject on track. Since this is the only site that I post on, although I believe this query relates to another related thread I'll crosspost here.  

Subject: Clarification???
On May 5, 2007 at 8:36am, <<<user name snipped>>> wrote :
Hey Dan,
We wrote this to another member and remember you writing something also on the "day of silence" blog (by Mikey and another by Itchychristian); so we are asking you for some clarification.
Since my wife and I are both scratching our heads as to your lengthy reply, let us re-state our main question to you; "do you condone that kids (who claim to be believers), should take part in handing out the homosexual agenda's literture, on thier "day of silence?"
Yes or no? 
We are not interested in long investigations about homosexuality; we have our local Pastor <<<name snipped>>> for that (<<<radio station website snipped>>>); and what we want to know from you is; do you think it's OK for kids in your Church to do so?
Thanks,
<<<signature snipped>>>

Here's my reply:
Subject: re: Clarification???
I can't find a "lengthy reply" from me on the blogs on this subject but, no, I wouldn't want our kids handing out literature advocating homosexuality.  I'm not sure where your confusion comes in as I can't find where anyone was advocating that on these blogs either.

lol PastorDan!  Thanks for making me laugh :)  I guess Pastor's are among the most commonly misquoted.  It just goes to show us not to be too quick to pass a judgement.  I know you would never advocate passing out this literature. 

Sometimes people are so off the mark, we just have to laugh.  This is so out of character for you that it made me laugh.

Fortunately the church as a whole doesn't treat them hatefully. There's just a few, which unfortunately the media conveniently uses to cast an image of the church.

Whether thought patterns are inherited or not still doesn't compel a person to act out in a certain way. The Bible uses strong language to define what is acceptable sexual activity.

First let me say that I am glad this discussion has been started.  Our beliefs as followers of Christ (Christians) on the subject of homosexuality or any other sin should follow the biblical perspective (aka truth).  I know that to zoom in on homosexuality is as bad as going up to someone and telling them they are a liar. I like the way Kirk Cameron puts it on a video I viewed recently about how to witness to a homosexual.  "Homosexuality is only one branch in the tree of the sinful nature."  To zoom in on one sin or someone's lifestyle of sin is not speaking the truth in love is it doesn't speak to anyone's consciense or heart, for that matter.  What you do is you reach the person's mind or intellect and they proceed to justify their actions or become defensive.  Homosexuality should be dealt with as any other sin.  We need to lovingly speak to the heart of the person and biblically show then their sin.  Leviticus is not the only place that condemns homosexuality.  So we really can't justify that it was wrong then but not now.  Also in I Cor 6:9-10 are listed ALL the sins that will keep you from the kingdom of God/Heaven.  Homosexuality is only one of them.  There is redemption from ALL sin through the blood of Jesus Christ.  His blood made a way for all sinners who come to repentance (literally turn from their sins) to be cleansed and accepted.

The church should not condone any sin (homosexuality included) if it truly follows the great commission, which is to "make disciples of all men."  You can't fulfill this, that is to make people truly followers of Christ ways, if you as a body are not "spurring one another" to good works.  We should lovingly exhort one another to live lives worthy of our calling, to put on Christ and to put off the old nature with its sins.  Also, understand that there is such thing as church discipline described in the bible in more than one place (Jesus spoke about it in Matthew and Paul also in ! Corinthians).  In fact, it talks about it in no uncertain terms and we are to restore "such a one" or the person who continues in sin knowingly.  All this should be done in love and with the sole aim of restoration.  

The point is, let's not zoom in on homosexuality.  Homosexuality is only one sin.  There are others and the only way to deal with sin is to confront it and turn from it.  The Lord loves us too much to leave us in our former state.  Let's encourage one another as the scripture says (I Thes 5:11) to live our best for Christ.  Let's live the life that he "died for us" to have.

In His Love...anak