I am going to have to go with Mickey Mouse this election, since there aren't any strong pro-life canditates that I am aware of.

Or were we not supposed to discuss this on this blog?????

The WYATT, that is precisely the kind of discussion which I would suggest does not help the Church fulfill its mission. But then I think you knew that.

I agree with your basic assertion, though I would slightly rephrase it thusly: who you vote for speaks volumes to GOD about your core values and principles!  I should not care who you vote for if I've decided to LOVE you!  (and I have...)  ~mike

Mike, this is your BESTEST blog EVER!!! I love it!!! I can't wait to read it again!!! I will too... when I get home tonight. I plan to read all the comments then as well.

I wish I could post a little smiley guy applauding your blog... can't seem to do it from here…

Mike I do kind of agree with Joel (The WYATT) on this one for only one reason.  At a Promise Keepers event that I attend some years back the speaker for one of the sessions warned us as Men of God (Sorry Ladies it was a PK event) we are responsible for who we vote for.  Meaning that if we chose to support a candidate because he might help our pocket book then we will have to answer for that decision on our judgement day.  I find it personally very hard to support an organization whose basic planks reach out to items that are so against scripture just to obtain power. 

You know for me it has become more of an issue of who to vote against, not whom to vote for.  Rather it has become for me a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils.  I know that sounds harsh, but so many of our elected officials have changed their tune on important matters that it seems that once they arrive in there perspective capitals (either state or national) the power goes to their heads and forgetting the people that put them into their position in the first place.  I am a fan of term limits myself, but that is a topic for another BLOG I know.

To get back to your original thought though, for me I will never hold anything against anyone for how they vote.  I have enough issues of my own to deal with without judging somebody else.

Humbly,

Randy

I'm home!!! Read your blog again. Still love it!!!

I don't know who I will vote for yet. I think my mom really likes Giuliani. Hey, is Gore really running? I thought that was just a joke.

FRED THOMPSON (I hope he runs!!!)

I can't bring myself to vote for McCain, and I refuse to vote for Guiliani, I could probably vote for Romney, but I'm really hoping Thompson steps in there. There's not much to choose from on the Republican side and I will never again in my life vote for a Democrat (even if it's for mayor).

I agree with your basic assertion, though I would slightly rephrase it thusly: who you vote for speaks volumes to GOD about your core values and principles!  I should not care who you vote for if I've decided to LOVE you!  (and I have...)

God loves me too, so why would He care unless it does make a difference? :)

There is indeed a danger in becoming too caught in the world.  However what does it say about the body if we did not speak out against the killing of babies.  What would it say about the body if we do not speak out against sex before marriage.  What would it say about the body if it does not stand for the Truth?

Let us not risk driving folks away from Truth and Love simply because our conscience has brought us to a conviction on certain issues!

What issues are not taboo?  What items stand as universal truth?  The easy answer of course is Jesus, but what part of the Word can everyone agree on?  For instance, I've heard christians doubt the virgin birth. There is something to be said for tact, however the Truth will offend people.  There's no getting around it.

BTW, the very things that become the social issues that you speak of are the basis for much of the discussion on this site.

Mickey for President!

Voice your given away your age, I guess that I am too as I remember Pat for President.  Didn't he run against Nixon the first time?

Personally I am kind of becoming a fan of Mike Huckabee, the former Govenor of Arkansas.  I know it's early in the campaign, but so far I have liked what he has to say better than any other.  As I said earlier, it's a shame that we end up voting for the lesser of two evils instead of for the best man for the job.  Where is a President Regan when we need him?

This is your best blog ever!!  You are so correct - it is our place to make people aware of the Lord and for God to convict their heart on whatever the issue is.  Unity Unity Unity of the Spirit in the Spirit - Great work!!!!!  I think I will frame this...  

"I for one feel that political discussions do more damage in (or to) the church than good. Let us not risk driving folks away from Truth and Love simply because our conscience has brought us to a conviction on certain issues! I’m not saying these issues aren’t important, but that it is God’s place to convict each of us, through the Holy Spirit. Another way to say this is, let’s focus on our unity in the Spirit, not on what the Spirit has brought to each one of us (individually)!!"

SSTTR, MaryAnn, Carol, Sue, thanks for your enthusiasm and encouragement!

DC, Joel, Aaron, Randy, Norm, your input is cherished as well!  Aaron, when did you change your name??

Like you (all), I am extremely convicted about many political (social) issues -- am I pro-choice or pro-life? check out my license plates! But I've also been convicted fairly recently to keep my viewpoints to myself around anyone who I'm not 100% sure I won't offend, which means just about everyone outside of my immediate family. I would hope that the only thing that anyone might find offensive about me is the cross of Christ.

Regarding issues that appear to be addressed very clearly in the Bible, it's probably still a very good idea to hold back, be satisfied that God has convicted you, and allow him to convict others in their own time. I'm not sure that Christians standing up publically against any sin have ever brought conviction to an unbelieving population anywhere else in the world at any time in history. In fact, the only thing I see it doing is hardening hearts against the Church!!

I also find it grievous that the Church in this country is so polarized politically. Why do congregations which are mostly African American seem to have so little in common with mainly white churches in the US? I refuse to accept Rush Limbaugh's explanation here. I think we need to accept our share of the responsibility and quit focusing on what divides us -- politics!!

Nevermind what Rush would say. It isn't important. (may I borrow a smiley to put right here?)

In exit polls from the last presidential election, African Americans voted as a nearly homogenous block (>90%) the opposite way that the white evangelical "block" voted. That was what I was referring to.

Did I hear someone say they needed a Smiley???

Sure Mike, you can BORROW him, just be sure to give him back!

Everywhere at all times....Sue

This turns out to be a most timely BLOG today.  I'm sitting here in my home office watching Man of the Year. 

I say write in your local pastor for president and throw the whole thing to the senate to decide to see where it takes us.

Here is the applause I promised earlier Mike.

And the WYP wakes from a long slumber...Mike I usually agree with you but I hesitate here...we do have a responsibility to teach a world who knows neither why they vote or how to vote...especially with the liberalistic views that the church has accepted.  When Clinton coined "it's about the economy" everybody fell in line grinning about the money they expected to get in their pocket...including vast amounts of church members...I apologize but I have a hard time believing that someone truly has accepted the cross and the weight of it while voting for politicians who are grossly immoral...but then the pickings left are slim to none. 

I do believe if we will focus on intructing people in righteousness, "all these things will be added unto you" will be par for the course however.  As a teacher, I make sure I instruct my classes on why we vote and how we are to vote responsibly.  I wonder how many people who have responded to your blog even know which branch is responsible for what...we usually throw everything on the president...but it isn't so.  As some of my students were bashing Bush one day, I made a list of all of the things they accused him of neglecting.  ALL of them (save the war) were congress and judicial responsibilities...that is a shame b/c they are merely quoting their parents.

So we should be instructing our fellow believers in "how" to vote responsibly.

That is my five dollars

Ah, WYP, welcome back!! We have all been deprived of your fellowship for far too long!

In response to your post, I would heartily agree that the Church should build a framework for responsible voting by building the moral capacity to vote through biblical instruction (and I applaud your efforts in this area). But specifically how an individual votes is their personal responsibility, isn't it? As brother Joel said way back in post #2, how you vote speaks volumes about your core values and principles. Amen Joel! HOWEVER, I don't want to learn about your core v's and p's by hearing how you voted, I want to see it in how you live for Christ!!!

Therefore, specifically how we vote on candidates and issues is really a side issue, and one that is terribly distracting and divisive to the Church, IMHO.

I also don't really think it's a wise use of our time trying to teach the world how they should vote, since their reasons for voting a certain way spring directly from their heart on the issues. It would be much wiser to go straight for their heart (again, the central issue) by sharing the Good News with them, both in word and deed. And here again, often as soon as we tell someone how we voted or who we support, they immediately categorize us into a "political camp", and if it isn't their camp then their hearts immediately harden towards us.

Like you, I too have a hard time believing that someone who claims Jesus as Lord can support politicians that stand for immoral positions. But to me, that is as much between them and God as whether or not they choose to tithe. In both cases their actions affect the Church, but also in both cases the problem stems from where their heart is. And we can all agree on Whose responsibility the changing of hearts is, can't we?

Hi Patrick. Missed you...

 I also don't really think it's a wise use of our time trying to teach the world how they should vote, since their reasons for voting a certain way spring directly from their heart on the issues. It would be much wiser to go straight for their heart (again, the central issue) by sharing the Good News with them, both in word and deed.

So were Paul's letters in the New Testament speaking to the heart?  I ask because there are certainly points in there that could be viewed as telling us how to "vote".  My argument is there is not a distinction between Biblical teaching and what we are talking about with issues.  I don't think defending a candidate is our job, but defending the truth of why something is right (and should be voted for) is.

 Bygones are bygones, so who or what we voted for are past.

BTW I read all the comments about not being proud of who we voted for and yet we make a big deal out of who we star (voted for) here? :)

Hi Norm!

First, Paul's letters are to the church, not the world. So I think he would advocate (as I) that we provide our moral training inside the church.

Second, I don't really see Paul address any "social issues" in his letters, except in how the church should treat individuals affected by these issues. By example I mean Paul tells the churches to care for the poor, widows, orphans, etc. Interestingly, Paul addresses slaves but never slavery! That's my whole point, the church should leave the issues alone and deal with the people.

Mike it is good to be back...but am not going to be at full capacity for a while...but I do enjoy the fellership (charlie?).  My little girl gave us another scare...but God is good.  Now to the point at hand...

I think we are pretty much in line but using different diction...seek ye first...then all these things.  I would say we have a responsibility to teach what we know and preach what has been made known to us...but if we preach righteousness and holiness as the standard across the plain with responisibility, people of immoral nature would not bother to run.  Imagine how awesome of a government we would have if every Christian realy prayed for their leadership like we are supposed to.  Anyways, that is 2 more dollars.

 Hi Maryann.

WYP, totally agree with you...I also think it is our responsibility to teach and preach righteousness ad holiness as a standard in personal character.

Good to hear from you again.

I'm thinking.... PEOPLE, STAR THIS BLOG!!!

How about you DC? What are you thinking?

What social issues are you talking about?  I don't remember talking about slavery lately.  I was thinking the current social issues were homosexuality, abortion, whether you can speak your beliefs if you are a Christian and so on.  (See also <a href="http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=6465">Breakpoint</a> for an example.)  Are you not talking about those?

And I thought your comments were about people you interact with (you say neighbor in one spot and christian brother in another).  Those would be people in my church. I don't see going out evangelizing and asking "Who did you vote for?". 

Summing it up for me is the following.  I don't believe the church should be endorsing candidates (including myChurch ones) or parties.  Actually I think legally in the US they can't unless they want to risk their tax free status.  But on moral issues such as abortion they cannot stay silent and not just within the church.

DC, that isn't entirely off topic but is heading that way. Would make a very intriguing blog though!

Norm, sounds like we're on the same page regarding support for specific candidates (and parties), which was the main point of my original blog. No church should visibly step into that arena.

Of course, who one supports is typically based on views held on some combination of issues. The Holy Spirit speaks to our conscience and convicts each of us individually regarding these issues. Thankfully in this country we have the glorious freedom to vote by that conscience, our own conscience! This is why voting booths are only big enough to fit ONE person at a time!  

Yes, unbelievers have a conscience too. And how can we expect them to be convicted by the Holy Spirit and vote like us on these issues? Are they really going to become convicted by our words on issues, spoken with the intent to persuade someone to vote a certain way?? To be honest, I don't care how anyone else votes! I'd rather see them embrace Jesus Christ, and then I'll take satisfaction that once the H.S. indwells them they will vote according to a conscience informed by God.

The major problem this blog addresses is, many Christians mistakenly think that all believers should vote alike if the Holy Spirit were leading them into the voting booth. Therefore we quickly become outspoken, and our voting choices always become a matter of right and wrong, black and white. Thus the Church is divided!!

I wasn't addressing evangelizing (sharing the Gospel with the lost), which most likely includes discussions of sin. We are probably on the same page there! ;-) 

DC!!! How dare you suggest that we as a church stop exepting handouts from the society we are trying to reach and by doing so are bound in chains by what we can or cannot say b/c in the end our hope and well being is not in God's hands but placed within the power of mortal man to make sure we don't have to breathe hard every April 15th!!!  Actually, I think our tax exempt status makes it harder on the finance people...being tax exempt is like going "nill" in spades. 

ps...in case it isn't obvious to all, I TOTALLY agree with DC. 

Norm, your question "Why aren't we talking about slavery?" Was that rhetorical or do you have an answer... cuz I am scratching my head wondering the same thing.

Mike, still LOVE this blog.

mychurch people... you should STAR IT!!!

Why aren't we talking about slavery? Well, we aren't really singling out any particular issue here, that was not the intent. And even if we were, slavery wouldn't be the most relevant to us today. If you want to speak out against worldwide slavery, go right ahead.

One thing to note, slavery was legal in NT times, Paul even addressed one of his letters to a slave owner (Philemon), but not once did Paul criticize the practice of slavery. Yet he did indicate that he had established a personal relationship with Onesimus (the slave), and urged Philemon to receive him back as a brother rather than a slave. The language of relationship, not societal issues!

Mike, I was just curious as to why Norm threw it out there...

I know why you didn't bro. This blog aint about that.

Happy Friday!!! :-) See you tonight in Antsilvania!!!

your sis who LOVES this blog,

Mary Ann

I seem to have lost this one.  But if floated to the top.

Mary Ann regarding

Norm, your question "Why aren't we talking about slavery?"

I didn't type that. if you are referring to this comment:

I don't remember talking about slavery lately.

it was in response to Mike's

Interestingly, Paul addresses slaves but never slavery!

Words don't mean what they once did, so let me clarify something of mine that sounds wrong this morning.

When I said this:

I seem to have lost this one.

I meant the discussion.  I hadn't seen it since the comments after mine were added. 

Chuck Norris for President!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUQW8LUMs8

I approve this comment. 

Thanks for keeping your views to yourself, Tammy.  HAHAHAHAAHA!! (sorry, you really seemed to get right into the spirit of this blog, so I just had to say it.. lol)

Eric, a question for you bro. Which issue would you say is more important to God, poverty/justice or abortion? Cmon, give me an absolutist answer to that! (hehe)

I've been thinking about this all afternoon and evening.  I think the correct answer is "I don't know, but a single, absolute answer does exist."  If God can have opinions, there is but one God and He has an opinion on this that I do not know.  If God is immutable (1 Sam 15:29), God's opinions do not change.  Therefore, there exists an absolute answer.  I just don't know it because the Bible never compared these two things.  “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

How was that!  ;)  Hehe.

Here is my too cents... I "think" God see's abortion the same as child sacrifice, such as done in worship to Molech.

So in this case, I think He hates abortion more than poverty.

As to poverty, even Christ was in poverty, he had no home, no income,

and as to justice, we were never promised justice! In fact, if anything else, we were promised in-justice, for by following Christ, we pit our selves against the world view. 

evil is evil, and all comes from sin. as to poverty like you speak of, comes from leaders that care for only themselves,

there will always be poverty in the world. Mat 26:11  You will always have the poor with you, but you won't always have me.

But one thing to think on, the Word of God will ALWAYS be stronger in the poor countries, because they truly know they are poor, whereas, we think we are rich, but in reality are beggars and naked, but have deceived our selves.

as to loosing dignity, and injustice, and Christ not knowing or living in this type of torment, think on this... when He was crucified, He was striped naked, and placed upon the cross, with nothing on, despite what the pictures show, this is loss of dignity, and He being GOD, allowed the Romans to do this. Injustice is a sinless man being killed. Having to suffer that lonely death, even though He did nothing to deserve it.  

 I may be weird but the worse holocaust in America is Abortion.

we only had one candidate that was promising a stand for a constitutional ammendment to stop abortion and sanctity of marriage. Christians and churches /organisations did not get behind him so we now have a mess.They could have! to my knowledge the 501 tax exempt status they gag themselves with is applied for voluntary to get tax break money.I guess the saying is true you get what you pay for.I worked hard in 2004 all over the miami valley for president Bush and He delivered the only real Abortion law since 1973 the 2003 partial Birth Abortion ban..I am very disappointed and waiting to see if i vote.

If Mr. McCain Picks Mike Huckabee I will vote for sure. 

Christianttt...you are singling out a couple of issues, both of which are important to me too! But the fact is, I don't believe there is a such thing as a perfect Christian candidate...well, at least, it seems we haven't seen one in our lifetimes. I simply refuse to believe that the Lord actually has a candidate in this or any election. Well, I take that back. The Lord's candidate is ALWAYS the one the wins... b/c this is the person God has actually chosen to use, right? During our elections it is a good thing to talk issues--but let us be humble and considerate of others' viewpoints, understanding that they may see things differently than we do and not necessarily be wrong.

Thanks for your comment! This blog has rec'd quite a few thought-provoking responses!!

Here is a funny:

A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop somewhere in Washington DC.

Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs. "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it." "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat."

The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store,two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars.

Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him.

Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into the Potomac Tidal Basin with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the Basin, where they drown.

Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop."So, you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner. "No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze congressman. "

Wow, I just read the comments in a blog about Sarah Palin, Barack Obama, etc., and feel it is necessary to resurrect this blog ONCE MORE..... God help us when secular politics comes between eternal brethren!!

I hear you mike!
I just am going to let the Holy Spirit speak on that day. Make sure I am prayed up and trust that He who is in me is greater then the world and has a plan to fulfil and a way about doing it and is going to Romans 8:28 everything anyway!

Ummm...ok...so I'm a write in...Vote for Birdie!
Political Affiliation: A-Political, Kingdom Party
Campaign Slogan:
'Servitude is not an option...it's a mandate'  
Foreign Policy: "Hear O Israel, there is One God"...not subject to debate...the One God equally loves and blesses all of his children...I haven't yet met a person he didn't create. 
Domestic policy: "If my people will humble themselves and pray...I will heal their land" ...I happen to believe this is truth. 
Domestic Initiatives:
Econonic Policy: "God shall supply all of my needs..."  Hellooooo.....not Citibank, Mastercard or American Express...Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae...did you get that???
Green Planet:.buy a golf cart, and then live, work and recreate with in 15 miles of your own home. Who needs energy wars? Dis domesic energy from your retirement portfolio and invest in golf cart manufacters...American Made only.
Aging: Respect your elders, and invite one to live with you for personal accountabily enrichment while serving domestic interests.
Health Care reform: "By His stripes we are healed..."  Believe that, and find a Doctor who also does.
Education:  One text book will do it...Genesis through Revelation...study it cover to cover from Kindergaten through 12th grade and see what changes in society.
The Arts: fund Worship to the One God

K--that's my platform and I'm stickin' to it!

"I feel" ... that we as a nation are on the verge of repeating history of the 1860's. We have become so polarized in our camps. Their are believers in both camps, and just as happened in the 1860's, believers divided on what they feel is right for the country.

As a pastor friend of mine is fond of saying:

"I don't care if you're a Republocrat or a Demopublican, or a Bapticostal or Episcolutheran for that matter.  All I care about is whether you love the Lord Jesus Christ with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and are seeking to love your neighbor as He has loved you. Why so simple?  Because if you're loving your neighbor as Christ loved you, we wouldn't need a political party to "stand up" for our values...we'd be living them out in daily life and the "social issues" would for the most part evaporate into thin air."

When it comes down to it, it's all about priorities, and when we see ourselves getting dragged into this debate and that by our own carnal desires for who-knows-what, we should come face to face with the reality that our priorities are not in line as they should be.

Mike I had not read all of the comments just your blog.  The problem with voting your conscience is that many Christians as well as others have no conscience.  Their conscience is "seared" as the Bible says, and no wonder people vote for all the wrong things that are opposed to Scripture. Because they are ignorant of it, or they don't care because their conscience is not bothered by it.  

Greetings Beloveds:

Should Christians Vote?

Here is an excellent Biblical view of this issue.

The answer is clearly: no. Particlularly when none, no not one, are worthy.

Although if one were to envoke true Christian Discernment (an oxymoron any more), and wanted to vote for someone that shared the values of their faith, they would see that Ron Paul would have the character traits, behaviours, and record that closely comport with Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. 

And to hear anyone refer to John McCain standing for righteousness is simply in error.

John McCain is easily seen as being Anti-Christian:

- He is a killer.
- He comes from a family of killers.
- He is an adulterer.
- He is  liar.
- He is a thief and has been involved in criminal/system abuses.
- His wife is an adulteress.
- She is a thief and criminal.
- She is a liar.
- She is a drug addict.
- Her wealth was created by selling/distributing drugs (alcohol) a very destructive force in our society.
- The Company her wealth comes from (Anheuser-Busch) was run until recently by the murderer August Busch 4 who killed a woman in Arizona (McCains home state interestingly) and also tried to kill several police officers.
- Anheuser-Busch also now shows up in the top 20 (#16) of homosexual friendly workplaces.

So a Christian would vote for this type of person?

There is no Separation between Church & State.

What Jesus Meant by saying render on to Ceasar is that Ceasar sybolized Satan & His Kingdom,
& that We are not to render anything to That Kingdom, but rather render ALL to God's Kingdom.

He was saying that NOTHING belongs to CEASAR,......Rather ALL belongs to God.

& That is The Only Government Responsible to Heal the World.

I would rather Vote for anyone from Mychurch right here.

The Main Purpose of the Church is to Build the Church so that we do not have other Governments.

I will most likely Vote McCain just based on some areas the Republican Party is for.

Like Pro-LIFE...........Any Party That can not see that KILLING Babies is WRONG ......How is it
then Possible to Make ANY OTHER Sound Judgement???????

We do need a Candidate that is Truely Far Beyond Reproach.....on the Ballot.

We do need to Get such a Person on the Ballot.

Greetings Excellent David:

Alan Keyes' oratory has always been enjoyable to be sure.

For those interested:

Alan Keyes

He is  also a Dominionist, which some here may find interesting reading. 

JamesAD62
------------------------------------
Live Jesus. Be Church.

I have come back to check the conversation log and to see if you responded, and this is a repost!!  Don't I feel sheepish!  LOL  Hopefully, I am consistent in my response.  Perhaps if I had read all of the comments I would have not gotten all riled up LOL!   You are SNEAKY!  or am I impetuous?

If Christian people wanted to vote for someone they knew was Christian, they would have put Huckabee on the card instead of McCain, but since "We the People" got too caught up in useless crap like "well what does his economic plan include?" and "what would he do about educational issues?", many people voted for more secular people, and McCain topped that list (though impressively, considering exposure and resources used, Huck finished above even Romney).

Are those issues bad?  Not at all!  The economy is important, and education is important, but that's beside the point!  If you elect a person who seeks God first in what he/she does, then everything else will fall in line when it needs to fall in line.  PERIOD.  This is still election time...have we become so ridiculously ignorant and short-memoried that we don't realize that politicians say whatever they think will get them the most votes in November??

It wasn't long ago that McCain wasn't as firmly pro-life as he now says he is, and when I first saw a video clip of him saying "[after a question splitting theological hairs] the important thing is, I'm a Christian", and it looked so fake and manufactured that I thought he was full of it.  It also wasn't too long ago that Obama-rama was saying "I'll adhere to the public fundraising/campaign finance laws" and "my pastor is my most important spiritual advisor", while now he has gone the complete opposite direction because neither suited his ultimate needs well.

So what have we learned?  [begin short rant]  Secular politicians are liars -- news flash! :P  So as far as the "let's elect a solid Christian as President" comments go, well, unfortunately the Church has already let that ship sail, and now that we're left with two secular people -- I liked Mike's "40% good and 60% bad vs. 60% good and 40% bad" analogy -- the people are whining that they don't have a true enough Christian to vote for.  Well if you didn't waste yor vote (or worse, not vote at all) on a "less-than-ideal kinda-Christian" back in February or June or whatever month your state had it's Primary,then stop your whining, because it's your fault there's no strong Christian now to vote for. [end of rant]

As for the thought that "nothing should be rendered unto Caesar and all should be rendered to God", that's ridiculous.  Why?  Because right after saying that, He gave the gold denari to Caesar to pay the taxes for Him and his disciples.  That should close the book on that thought altogether. And though we should submit everything to the Lord's  perogative, He has already made it clear in His Word that we are to respect, pray for, pay taxes to, and otherwise be upstanding citizens of our governments.

As for the thought that the outcome of the elections will not "matter at all in eternity", that thought sounds good on the surface but lacks comprehension of what all contributes to eternity.  Eternity -- and both the "pleasant and not-so-pleasant" habitations found therein -- will be comprised of  people, and those people will form their opinions and relationships with God based on things that happen in their environments to sway them one way or the other.  If they have a leader come into power and lead righteously, they will be more inclined to look also to God, while an unrighteous leader will cause people to become embittered and self-focused, leading them away from God.  So in a very real way, every election -- even of "minor" things like school boards and mayors -- can potentially play a HUGE role in who accompanies who into what place in eternity.

I hope that clarified some things for some people.

Greetings Beloveds:

Let's cut through the density of denials, deflections, and obfuscations.

Are you a follower of Jesus Christ and the Apostles or not?

If so, ask yourself this: Did Jesus and the Apostles vote?

The answer: No.

There are around 160 million Christians in the US. We can make a massive difference. But only if we walk the walk of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

Are you a follower of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour? 

Then walk the walk of the Saints. Not the sinners.

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Greetings Brothers and Sisters:

This is not about politics.

It is about the voluntary slavery of Christians to systems of men that has been going on for centuries.

Are you not tired of being puppets of the state and the systems of men? 

By the nature of the commentary - Christians are just fine with their voluntary slavery.

I'll let the power of the Words of Jesus Christ finish this entry:

Luke 23:34

34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".........

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Greetings Amazing Creations:

Dearest Mike - Following the example set forth by Jesus and the Apostles is not an opinion. It is our directive.

If we are not following that directive, then the title of Christian cannot be rightfully claimed.

For those that seek a Biblical perspective on voting - Here is an excellent overview, Bibilically based and Scripiturally referenced.

Thanks for hosting this conversation! : )

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Amen, Brother Mike.

I am a political junkie, and I have VERY strong opinions on politics and on this race in particular. But I absolutely cringe whenever I see Christians let an election stand in the way of saving the lost and showing love. I am deeply offended when I see politics being preached from the pulpit - and even moreso when I see so-called churches allowing their pulpit to be used for stump speeches. 

Jesus did not come to overthrow Caesar (much to the Jew's chagrin), but to overthrow sin, death, and Satan in eternity. 

I am not saying that our values should not inform our votes. But I am saying that I personally know a number of people who were turned off from "organized religion" and found themselves trapped in New Age mumbo-jumbo based primarily on experiencing conversations with Christians over politics. Mark Scott once repented in church for a sermon he gave on abortion that turned a young woman that was *Seeking Christ* away because she had an abortion earlier in life.

God gave us all free will. And if that free will extends to the *really* important stuff like choosing Jesus, then it extends all the more so to personal prefernces about political parties.

But feel free to ask me my political beliefs outside of church and I will be glad to share them in a mutually respectful way. And I do support the candidates I believe in, or (in most cases) I believe will do the least harm. But I will not let my political differences come between me and loving a brother or sister anymore than I will let my food preferences do so. 

In the end, God is sovereign.  And thank God for that because there is no human being we can look to for eternal salvation - not even for limited salvation for a 2-,4-, or 6-year term.

In Him,

Mike Webb

doveagle, you've shared wisely and graciously, thank you! I don't think anyone has argued that we can't call a sin a sin within our churches. Regarding the experience with our pastor repenting of a sermon on abortion.... He didn't repent of his views on abortion, or even the fact that he shared them from the pulpit. What he repented of, as I recall, was the way he did it. He repented of insensitivity toward his listeners.  He said he found out later the girl was already hurting, wracked with guilt, so his over-the-top delivery made her feel she was in a place of condemnation, not redemption and healing.

Yes, I believe strongly that Christians should vote. We would also do our country a much greater service if we all voted the same way, assuming there was a right answer. But in a secular gov't there is never one "right answer", IMHO.

Should we be quiet and uninvolved? No. What we ought to do is start by leading by example. When the church can remain in Christ, and live faithfully according to the example of Christ, then we will be ready to lead our secular society back to God. But we have problems. Check out the marriage statistics for one, and tell me the church is ready to "reclaim America for God".

hehe, ok, now I'll stop. Thanks for your passion doveagle, we need more of that, not less. God bless!

Especially this part!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen Shirley! I'm with you!!

Michael, interest comments. There is a lot wrong with today's church, but there's also a lot right with it too. Clearly your heart aches over the church's shortcomings, and America's too, as mine does. Thanks for lending your voice bro.

Angela, I wish it wasn't true, sis. I really wish. We are shackled by our faithlessness.

Dan, indeed there is a widespread lack of maturity.  I just don't know what the way around that is. I wish influencing people for Christ was easier.

Mike ~ This is a copy of what I wrote in Mike & Carol's blog today:  I'm sorry I don't have time to try to build another case for my view.  I hope it will more clarify & build upon what I have shared. 

I agree with your thoughts here.  I believe that we have a responsibility to speak truthfully, in effort to help others think and act more Biblically, while standing on a foundation of mutual love and respect...even gently correcting others if necessary.  If we are to truly engage each other and grow, we ought to approach all blogs with the attitude of putting the view of Christ first, and basing our "opinion" on that.  I always hope to represent HIS viewpoint to the best of my understanding, and I hope that is where my readers will speak from.

As far as my vote, it's right on with your choice:  McCain/Palin b/c they best represent a Biblical worldview stand on right to life, embryonic stem cell, and sanctity of marriage issues.  They are not "perfect," but they have the best shot at winning and defending the Biblical model of right and wrong concerning these issues.

I believe that if we turn a blind eye to these issues, God will not bless our country.  He says he will care for us, but if we turn our back on these ethical issues and grieve the heart of God, we will disobey His commands and face judgement.  I believe God will take care of all that concerns us, if we obey His commands and fight to defend His Word.

You both are appreciated and I am glad you are not of the "opinion" that Christians should be silent on these issues.  Politics IS for Christians!  It is for all people who fear God, amen?

It's too bad we don't have candidates who take a stand (taking their word for it) for a Biblical Worldview, but we can vote for the party/person(s) who most resemble that model.

God bless your effort to keep the peace.

Greetings Amazing Creations:

Dearest Patti: Absolutely Positively Awesome Idea!

Pick your Apostle! 

I'm a bit partial to James the Just myself. : )

And Excellent Dan: Totally agree. 

Marilyn, thanks for your comment! What a breathe of fresh air, you never once mentioned the "p" word, LOL! Glad your 'puter is up and running again sister!

My Christian friends, hypothetically, what if Republican politicians actually have no intention of ending abortion, for fear of what it would do to their political careers? What if they're only using this promise to gain votes, knowing it will NEVER actually come to pass?? Hmm? Would God lead you to waste a vote on an empty promise, and miss the opportunity to vote for another candidate who can deliver on a promise of economic reform for the poor and disadvantaged?? Is your choice as clear cut now?  Just wondering...

We are quick to throw our lot with the party that says they are pro-life. Do we ever stop to think that their anti-welfare policies actually promote abortions among inner city women who are forced to choose between a job and a baby?? Is the candidate of choice still clear cut?

We Christians are so focused on abortion and the sixth commandment (thou shalt not murder). What about the first and most important commandment, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Can a political party run roughshod over that one and still have God's favor??

Our role in the voting booth is as a good and appreciative citizen of our earthly nation, not as a Christian trying to sanctify the culture or expand God's kingdom. It's a noble idea, but it's just not gonna happen. The way we change the culture for Christ is NOT in the voting booth. At least NOT until we can vote for a genuine man of God, who clearly proclaims his intention to glorify God with his public office. And that, my dear friends, will never happen.

ps... I never ONCE said we Christians should withhold our voice from politics, art, science, media, etc. But to align ourselves with a secular political party, and promote that party amongst our Christian brethren as if own party is morally right and God's choice, is terribly misguided. IMHO

Greetings Ongoing Beloveds:

Dearest Mike - "There is so much we don't know about our secular candidates".

Quite untrue, actually. 

This is the age of information and knowledge. This ain't the dark ages anymore Dorothy! : )

We can know as much as we like or as little as we like... about everything.

Thus the discernment problem. People are having a hard time breaking out of their limited habitualized, tribalized , and mass manipulated thinking of old. 

We can easily see in sordid detail what each candidate represents. 

Disclaimer: None of these candidates reflect my view (A Simple Christian) or even close and therefore will not get my vote.

For example: John McCain.

A Christian votes for McCain because he closest reflects his or her beliefs. 

Therefore a Christian is comfortable with and approves of:

- He is a killer.
- He comes from a family of killers.
- He is an adulterer.
- He is  liar.
- He is a thief and has been involved in criminal/system abuses.
- His wife is an adulteress.
- She is a thief and criminal.
- She is a liar.
- She is a drug addict.
- Her wealth was created by selling/distributing drugs (alcohol) a very destructive force in our society.
- The Company her wealth comes from (Anheuser-Busch) was run until recently by the murderer August Busch 4 who killed a woman in Arizona (McCains home state interestingly) and also tried to kill several police officers.
- Anheuser-Busch also now shows up in the top 20 (#16) of homosexual friendly workplaces.

Well... that is quite a bit of compromise for a supposedly discerning Christian.

And yes... that is what Christians are being asked to continually do... compromise with the world.

We are in the world not of the world. Christians cannot continue to compromise until there is nothing left.

A stand must be taken somewhere. That is why I like Patti's idea: Vote the Apostles.

There are 160 million Christians in the US supposedly, let's say half are voting age. That is a huge block.

Rather than submit to men and the rigged politcal systems of today, we stand on the framework of faith and love in the Name of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Christians need to recognize: You have voted in the past for the lesser evils - and things have not changed one bit at all.

Just remember: the blood is on your hands with the decisions you make. Who would Jesus vote for?

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Ok, James AD62 we obviously don't agree with each other on various different issues here.  But he who is without sin cast the first stone.  You're so quick to judge McCain, the man isn't perfect, but show me someone who is.  You're obviously angry with McCain.  Did you know that in deuteronomy, I don't know exactly where the scripture is but I can find it if you want, that is says (paraphrasing) if your country calls you to go to war and you don't then the lives of innocent blood is on your hands?  Are you calling McCain a killer because he's a war hero?  Last I checked so was David and Joshua in the Bible.  In fact if you read the Old Testament there are wars all over the place.  Jesus even says that there will be wars and rumors of wars until He come back. 

All those sins you continue to list about McCain, and his wife may have been true, but she was a drug addict, not is.  There was some issues in marriage not is.  Last I check Jesus came to wash our sins.  Are you saying that every sin I've ever committed I'll always have to wear the label of?  That doesn't sound forgiving to me?  It sounds like the very reason many in this world refuse to go to church because their tired of people judging them.

You're absolutly right that blood is on your hands with the decisions you make, but if you choose not to do anything than thats just as bad as voting for the wrong canidate. 

I have personaly met McCain, and old friend of mine is an extended relation to him.  If you don't like the guy that's one thing, But slandering him with titles of mistakes in the past is a low blow.  He's also a War hero who was totured for years because he refused to be a propaganda ploy for the North Vietnamese.  Do you know how the Vietnamese used to torture their POW's.  They'd tie ropes around their arms and legs and pull them apart.  When McCain got home he had a rough few years but who wouldn't after living through that?  You can't hold and condemn people for past mistakes. 

Bottom line we'll both have to give an account for what we do on this earth before God one day.

Greetings Dearest doveagle:

Thank you for the response!

Simply put - Facts are facts. They are neither good nor bad. 

(regarding Cindy - she now has access to the same drugs she was stealing, legally through her doctor. Similar to Rush Limbaugh. Another erroneous representative of conservatism) 

Additionally - I am certainly not angry at anyone, so your interpretation is quite amiss. 

I am simply saddened by the years of gullibility the Christian community has displayed and continues to display, with your comments being the manifestation of that gullibility.

Christians today have great power, yet they choose to be pawns of men. Quite unfortunate and definitely anti-Christ. 

Have you taken the time to study what the Bible says relating to the practices of Jesus and the Apostles and voting?  Here is an excellent overview, Bibilically based and Scripiturally referenced.

Let us not forget - you and I are Christians - followers of Jesus Christ.

That is a huge responsibility which most cannot fulfill. That is why we keep "dumbing down" and "compromising" our faith to the world. 

I stand on the uncompromising Word and the Faith of Our Lord Jesus Christ. 

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Greetings Awesome Mike:

The premise is so simple: Follow Jesus and the Apostles. Not men.

There is no attempt to convince/influence anyone by me... I do not have to. Simply follow the lead of Jesus and the Apostles.

If you are really a Christian, then that is what you should already be doing.

That is as simple as it gets.

Follow Jesus and the Apostles.

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Greetings Excellent Mike:

Oh dear yes, I completely understood and understand.

In such a limited communications environment such as blogs, creating thought clarity through a cacophonous density sometimes (many times! : ) requires a continued metamorphosis of explanation and consideration.

I strive to understand that everyone is so much more that their postings, their surface appearance, their spoken words - they are living "books" of individual lives of joy, pain, rapture, suffering, and all elements of our temporary physical existence.

That is why the love I have for the Lord and my fellow Christians (and fellow man) is so eternally strong. As was Jesus' and the Apostles. As should all of ours be one for another.

Isn't it... amazing and wonderful?!?!

Thanks again Mike for the space for this important conversation.

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.

Ok, I've been trying to say nicely yes, we disagree, but we can come in unity under through Christ.  But calling me a "gullible,pawn of man that's being used by the anti-Christ."  Really is a low blow. 

I am simply saddened by the years of gullibility the Christian community has displayed and continues to display, with your comments being the manifestation of that gullibility.

Christians today have great power, yet they choose to be pawns of men. Quite unfortunate and definitely anti-Christ. "

You're being a wonderful mediator by the way!  :-) 
I'm just very sad that we can't disagree without calling each other names.  Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way.  Anyway I'm not offended.  People can belive what they want, and I can disagree with them.  I've been in ministry too long not to have think skin.  It's unfortunate but sheep bite.

Smiles!

LOL!  My pastor says that, so I can't take credit for it.  Sigh, it's true.

Smiles!

Greetings Beautiful Creations!

: )

No name calling. Just truth and facts.

There is nothing to forgive, actually, except perhaps the human inablitity to handle truth and facts without becoming emotionally charged.This is the reason so few problems are resolved, quite frankly.

Stating truth and facts in this day and age can seem threatening to those unable to deal with their own conflicts with their version of Faith as being practiced by the individual. Especially when that faith is manipulated or diluted to suit their own human desires rather than the desire to emulate the walk of Jesus Christ.

Let's try a simple approach: 

Did Jesus kill? Did the Apostles kill? Did they preach killing? Would they support those that did? 

Answer those questions and we can see how our lives, beliefs, and decisions reflect that of Christ.

That's all we can do.

If a person is a sincere Christian - then they are walking the walk of Christ, following His lead and that of the Apostles.

Greetings Awesome People:

Yes indeed you shall know them by their fruit:

And the fruit of many is to promote death and destruction.

That is not Jesus or the Apostles.

The lukewarm pool is being filled with compromisers. Very unfortunate. 

JamesAD62
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Live Jesus. Be Church.