Wow. Kathy, thank you for being bold!  I agree with you on one essential issue (among others).  As adults, we are not discipling our kids.  It's easy to blame school when we believe our children are being shorted in one area or another.  However, you are right, praying at school is a waste of time if we aren't praying at home.  Our children need an in-depth knowledge of not only what they believe, but why they believe it!  No amount of prayer time in a classroom will prepare our kids for what they will face when they leave their desks.  Besides, I learn very little about God from other's prayers.  What I learn, instead, is how distant people often are from their Savior.  I'd rather not have my kids subjected to prayers lifted up by people who don't actually believe God can do what He says He can do.  Sadly, people who actually have an intimate relationship with Jesus are rare these days. 

We love our praise and worship time and may even read our Bible.  But, on the whole, we as adult Christians are not discussing our faith or scripture with the youth of today.  It is not the schools responsibility, nor is it the church's responsibility, to disciple our kids.  It is our job.  We can't just drop them off at Sunday School and expect them to have a strong faith as adults.  If we aren't living it, they won't either. 

Thanks for starting this conversation with such thoughtfulness.

"this nation was not founded as a Christian nation" -- as you could see by my recent entry regarding voting, I wholeheartedly agree with that.

"we cannot understand what freedom means until we have experienced what it means to be without it" -- If it were me, I'd phrase it "we can't fully appreciate freedom unless we know what it is like to live w/o it."  I think many of us who've been free all our lives have a pretty good idea of what it means, but we also take it for granted often. Even the Israelites who were at one time actual slaves often ceased to be thankful to God for freeing them. I'm sure they knew what it meant to be slaves though.

And just a note on separation of church and state. It actually isn't in the constitution. There's a quote in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a congregation of Baptists in 1802, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;' thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State."

Some people claim this "wall of separation" means they are entitled to freedom from religion in public. But that isn't what Jefferson said at all.  ~mike

George Washington

Thomas Jefferson.

Prayers before convening Congress have been happening since it's inception by a staff chaplain.  See here and here.

I don't see how that would happen if we weren't founded as a christian nation, do you? 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .

How is banning the ability of people in groups to pray in school or anywhere not a direct violation of that last item? 

A proper context of the first ammendment would show that our founders, while not advocating a state religion, never intended on religion being removed from the public arena! Our laws find their origins in Judeo/Christian faith. The overwhelming majority of our founders were Christians - NOT diests, agnostics, or athiests... it's this mindset that has led to the stripping away of our nation's Christian heritage and traditions. The greatest fear of the founders was that religion would be used as a political tool, as had been the case with the Church of England. Many quote Jefferson's statement as the sentiment of the founders on this matter, and it's a misquote and misunderstanding as well. The elimination of prayer in schools, Bible reading, the 10 Commandments, etc. has brought us to the point of moral decline here in the USA.

While I do agree with some of the points that Kathy makes, I feel that she is dead wrong on her asertion that we're wasting time and effort on our efforts to restore what was considered normal for 140 yrs of our Republic, that has been assaulted for that past 60 yrs.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell,
         And all the nations that forget God.

Proverbs 14:34 34 Righteousness exalts a nation,
      But sin is a reproach to any people.

And, our schools actually do have a religious agenda in their cirriculum. They indoctrinate students with the religion of Secular-humanism, whose basic theology teaches that "if it feels right to you, then it must be right afterall." The personal conscience dictates personal morality. This is what "Separation of church/state" jurisprudence gets you...

Soozanne, Mike, and Norm, thank you for your comments here.  Mike, I liked your wording better and made that change!  Thanks!  Norm, I realize and the deism of our founding fathers is debated, and I certainly do not claim to have the final word on that.  Therefore, since that is not really the point of my blog, I deleted that line as well.  Obviously, there are innumerous writings about the founding fathers, written with many bents and agendas. 

Norm, as for your final questions:  Question 1:  There are many who pray regularly to God but do not acknowledge Christ, the namesake of Christ-ians.  Whether the early congressmen fit into this category, I have not researched and won't venture to guess here.  Also, even at my college, when the faculty get together, we often open with prayer, but that doesn't mean our school was founded on Christianity.  If I'm missing your point, which I do occasionally, please bring me back on track!   :)    

Final Question:  I do not see any violation at all here.  As I stated in my blog, there is no ban against groups praying together at school (or anywhere).  The ban is against government-paid employees leading the religious activity within the government-funded operation.  This is for all of our protection.  Student groups are free to gather and pray or sing or study the Bible or do anything they want to do, as long as it is student led and outside of their class time.  I have prayed in my office with students many times, served as Campus Crusade for Christ advisor (studying, singing, praying, and ministering with students),  and have prayed publicly with them at "See You at the Pole."  Students may pray anytime they want.  They just cannot be mandated to do so by government employees.  Do you see this differently? 

Grace and Peace to you all!

Mike, I forgot to address your constitution comment.  You are of course correct that the term "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the Constitution, but the concept is quite evident there, much like we Christians say of the word "Trinity," which does not appear in the Bible.  The idea was there.  The name came later.

Wyatt, welcome, my brother!  lol - I would be disappointed if you took in any other stand!  You are one of the predictable opinions here on MyChurch!  Obviously you and I differ on this issue, but since my blog was written in response to the point of view you bring, it really would be incomplete without hearing your side.  And as I always say, fortunately we do not have to agree on details in order to be brother and sister in Christ.  Thank you, Wyatt, and God bless you! 

Kathy doesn't seem to support a total ban on school prayer.

Mike (Norm), my only point in posting the quote by Jefferson is that the "wall of separation" isn't in the constitution, like many people think.

This nation was founded as a nation of religious freedom, not Christian exclusivity. It so happens that a majority of the population, at least at one time, professed Christianity. Which is why public prayers were no big deal. But the Christian population is shrinking, and the founding documents do not (and cannot, nor should they) establish Christianity as the official religion. So in the legal sense the US is not a Christian nation. And in the practical sense, defined by number of practitioners, although the US was at one time a Christian nation it appears to no longer be so, and this is unfortunate! ~mike

I do not think an official time of prayer would be helpful - it would create more problems.  However, I do disagree that our children are not being forbidden to pray or hold Bible studies.  Years ago when I was in high school, I carried my Bible with me to every class.  I never read it during a lecture nor did I make a big deal out of it.  I just wanted it with me so I could read it any chance I had.  I took a lot of heat from the administration for that.  I also had to fight battles regarding wearing Christian T-shirts.  I had to fight for 2 years to start an after school Bible study at my school.  The only reason the principle gave in was ecause of legal documentation that I had to bring in.  But it still took 2 years before I was allowed to hold the study.  This was almost 20 years ago - I don't think things have gotten more open.  It may depend on where people live.  Smaller towns seem more open to Christians having freedom, but schools that are a part of a larger city (where I grew up) are much more resistant.

That being said, I know that having my Bible study and carrying my Bible also means that Muslims and and other religion should be granted that same freedom.  Schools should not be teaching religion, but neither should they separate themselves from it.  As long as a student is not disruptive, they should have their Bible if they so choose.  Just as I have no problem with a student that wants to carry a Koran to school.

I actually go one step further, and it makes people mad - but I think we should remove the Pledge of Allegiance.  Not because of the reference to God, but because - as a Christian - I do not think we should pledge allegiance to anyone or anything except for Jesus Christ. 

Whether the early congressmen fit into this category, I have not researched and won't venture to guess here

Isn't that the at least part of the argument?  Otherwise define how we determine if we are a christian nation?

Also it strikes me how many people who call themselves christians would be labelled as diests today if you look back at them 200 years from now.

The ban is against government-paid employees leading the religious activity within the government-funded operation.

What difference does it make if they are paid by the government or not.  Why should they have to give up the right to lead or particpate in prayer?  How is telling them they have to practice as an atheist when in their government positions any different than telling them they have to practice as a different religion?  Whether they should be able to force others to participate is a different story.

What else will we give over to others?  We've given away the rights to teach anything Christian related in the schools, while our kids are being taught things contradictory to our beliefs.  The same is true of government and science.  Where does Jesus or the Bible say that we should only give a specific portion of our lives to him? Where does Jesus say we should stay out of government?

I can think of only one specific passage that could be taken this way.

This was specific to tax and obeying the law.  It was not about staying out of politics.  Consider this.  If we are to say that anything that the government has a hand in renders it unavailable to God, what do we tithe with on Sundays and why didn't Jesus reprove this woman for giving him something that was Caesar's?

One last thought.  Was this earth created on Christian or if you prefer Godly principles?

Thanks, Mike, for helping out!  Thanks, Bestemor, for giving me a smile!   Thanks, Cathy, for checking in! 

And Spooksam, I am so sorry to hear your story!  I can only guess that your school's reaction was our of fear and misunderstanding of the law.  I taught in the public school system for 12 years and have been in a public college for 8, and have never seen the problems you describe.  Have any of the rest of you had experiences like Spooksam's?

A privately sent response reminded me that George Washington held a strong faith in Jesus.  I had forgotten this.  The e-mailer also listed Christian quotes attributed to Jedidiah Morse, John Adams, and Patrick Henry.  I was not familiar with these quotes, but I wanted to share these names with you.  It does seem appparent, that although we were not founded constitutionally as a Christian nation, most of the earlier settlers were of Christian faith.   

Norm, I never said our nation was not built on Christian or Godly principles.  Sure it was!  Freedom and respect for all of humanity are just 2 of a plethora of Christian /Godly principles.  And I agree that most of the early European settlers were Christian.  Perhaps we are working from different definitions of founded.  When I say founded I am referring to the drafting of the Constitution of our new nation, which, although certainly based on Godly principles was not solely written for Christianity.  The founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, were amazingly forward thinking, even saying that all men were created equal, while still holding their own slaves. 

One more point I will respond to here, Norm.  I have spent my entire adult life in the schools, and  no one is forcing us to live as atheists!  I am a Christian every second of life, wherever I am.  I also respect the freedoms of every individual in my classes, as well as the Constitution of the United States, so I do not pray aloud with my students in my classroom.  That is not appropriate.  I am their Spanish teacher, not their Spiritual leader.  That said, my students know I am Christian and often come to office for spiritual discussions or for prayer, and  my door is open.  No one is forcing anyone to be atheist.  However, I suspect that if your child were in an atheist's class or a Muslim's, you would want to be very sure he kept his religious beliefs out of the classroom,  would you not?  I'm not trying to argue with you, Norm.  I just feel strongly about schools!  And hey, thanks for the star.  You gave me #100!

Kathy,

I agree almost completely with your thoughts. I also have one that I keep getting beat up for by some of my Christian friends. If we allow prayer back in school, the way most people want to define it, then we also have to allow Muslim prayer, Wicca prayers, etc. etc. In fact, if we want to fully protect our rights, we need to work dilligently to also protect the rights of people we might strongly disagree with! In the mid 70's a friend and I had a Christian bookstore, we wouldn't allow any group to hand out flyers out front. The point was made when some Krishna's came in and wanted to hand out flyers, if we had allowed any group to hand things out, we would have been required by law to allow the Krishna's to hand theirs out!

 Perhaps we are working from different definitions of founded.  When I say founded I am referring to the drafting of the Constitution of our new nation, which, although certainly based on Godly principles was not solely written for Christianity.

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of "You shall have no other God besides Jesus".  There's a conflict there.  By nature an earthly constitution based on Christianity could not be written solely for Christians.  Jesus isn't going to force us to love or follow him.  Neither can his followers do so to another.

However, I suspect that if your child were in an atheist's class or a Muslim's, you would want to be very sure he kept his religious beliefs out of the classroom,  would you not? 

This is my very point.   What is keeping an atheist's belief out of the classroom?   Nothing.  Actually everything is in place to support it.  You cannot seperate your religious beliefs from the way you live your life.  When you go into that classroom, you take your value system with you.  Have you ever heard of an atheist not being able to pass on his beliefs to child?

As a public school teacher, I would like prayer to be in schools...Christian Prayers.  So at least in part, I agree with Kathy.  I have difficulty when other people's belief's (non-christian) are permitted to supercede my morals, ethics, etc.  (Wiccan student's rights seem to outweigh Christian student's rights in our area/school district. That's my struggle and I don't know that there is really an answer.

On a positive note: my principal is a Born-Again believer, we have "a moment of silence" and we have a prayer wall (in my class) on the board that people can write prayer requests...and we will pray over them.  I have and will pray with my students at school, when they ask (I answer to God first).  A student once made me a cross in shop class.  I display it with all of the other art work given to me. (Side note: A self-proclaimed "child of Satan" student of mine used to walk in my room EVERYDAY and turn my cross upside-down...I would just come up with a different come back each time like -  "Hey...that's how they said some of the Disciples were crucified." etc.

It kind of makes me feel a little rebellious...but as I am walking around campus throughout the day, I sing songs of praise, pray silently, and lay hands on students (shoulders and such).  Some days I feel as though I am defeating Satan on his turf through the power of praise to the King...

God IS in the schools if WE (His children in which He dwells) are in the schools!

Kathy-

Let me add that I also wouldn't want a particular "brand" of Christianity forced on me or my children as well thru our public institutions. But, Bible reading or guest clergy coming and leading a morning prayer prior to the start of the school day would be appropiate... and no different than our federal gvt's use of the same routine prior to conducting its daily business.

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

AngiePangie, What if the Wiccan, instead of being your student, was your child's teacher?  Would you want her to respect the law on this issue?   You are nowhere near alone on this issue, but I'd like to hear how you justify this if you want to share.  

Wyatt, that's a good point that hasn't been mentioned.  In that elusive perfect world, which brand of Christianity do we want the teacher to have?  What if he's the wrong denomination or the wrong sect of the right denomination, or too liberal, or too fundamentalist, or speaks in tongues, or advocates women in ministry, or  . . .? 

Davethepastor, Wow!  You just wrote your own blog, and it's beautiful!  Thanks for your insightful questions, and the public school vs. private school debate is a tough but very important one.  (Anyone looking for a new topic to blog?!)

Dennis, Absolutely!  Yes!

To all: My question is why we as Christians think the law applies to other religions but that it is our Christian duty to break the law?  We are in the majority, so we think we can make our own rules?  It seems harmless to us, but was this not the Nazi viewpoint as well?  (We know we are right, and God is on our side, so we are above the law, and nobody else really matters, because they're not on God's side.) 

I would highly recommend that those who think, or have been taught that America was not founded as a Christian nation take a look at the following link. David Barton is an execellent resource for the historical references and documentation that conters the secular humanist view taught in most public schools. This site is really eye opening:

www.wallbuilders.org

Kids can pray anytime they want to in school.  Just because their prayers are not spoken out loud or said or shared in a group setting is no big deal to God.

To all: My question is why we as Christians think the law applies to other religions but that it is our Christian duty to break the law?  We are in the majority, so we think we can make our own rules?

I don't know where this comment came from unless it was based on AngiePangie's comment.  Otherwise I don't know who suggested breaking the law in this thread.  The talk was of changing the law.  With that said how many countries are missionaries in, where they are breaking the law just by evangelizing?  Do you suggest they stop?  

 I'm just curious as to what drives the movement to return to that one activity.

Maybe the same thing that drove the Pilgrims to come over here?  And it's not one activity by the way, unless you want to lump it into freedom to worship God.  The reason I've been focusing on one is because that's where the post started. :) 

I've also got to say I think the "roll back" thing is a strawman.  A stop fighting because you can't fix it.   Should I ever stop fighting for Truth?  No and this doesn't mean I stand up for slavery.  Slavery isn't part of the Truth (other than slavery to sin).  There are many bad things done in the name of Christianity, just as there were many bad things done in the name of atheism and any other religion you wish to name.  Is anyone here saying that prayer in school is one of those things?

We are letting our kids be taught science in an atheistic system.  If God is responsible for everything in nature, how can we believe what they are being taught is correct, since God can't be brought into the conversation.  So the latest atheistic beliefs are taught instead.

Actually coming back to a point that has been bugging me.  The statements that this country was not founded as a Christian nation and that our founders were mostly deists.  May I ask where that belief was picked up?  My guess is whether it's true for Kathy or not, that most people who have started to believe that picked it up in school.  How is that possible if our schools are to have no hand in informing about religion?  And if it's not about religion *why* is history being rewritten?

"Maybe the same thing that drove the Pilgrims to come over here? "

No, that can't be it, because the Pilgrims came away to practice their faith, not stayed and imposed it on everyone. That's precisely why they came - to avoid that happening to them.

 "I've also got to say I think the "roll back" thing is a strawman."

No, it's reality. Take a look at how the demographics of America have changed. And will change. I'm just wondering if people who hold that view are in "leave It To Beaver" mode. They might not be, or they may. 

"There are many bad things done in the name of Christianity..."

Are and were, just as there are in any religious system. But getting back to topic, Jesus didn't come to establish a Kingdom of this world. In a homogenous society made up of Christians, prayer in the schools happened because Christians pray. But now, we are far from homogenous, and we'd have a crazy quilt of prayers from all sorts of sources. I've noticed that some of the governmental bodies have opened with prayers from Muslims and Wiccans. Is that what we really want? If it's not, and we want only Christian prayers, then we are after something different than what the Bible laid out as the responsibilities of believers in relation to government.

History is being rewritten all the time BTW, because sources are revealed over time. The old saw about history being written by the victors is true for that generation, but after it, the real picture often comes to be seen. 

I singled it out because it has been this issue promoted for years as the reason America's culture has turned away from God. We have freedom of religion.  What we do not have is state sponsored religion. And that's a good thing, says the Baptist.

Good morning, my blogging friends!  A few responses before I head to work:

Chris, I've missed you!  Thanks for your input.  I haven't heard of wallbuilders and would want to research who they are before putting any special stock in their opinion, as all writers (and human beings) have their own biases.  We are so past the age when we can believe something because we read it somewhere, especially about a topic on which so much conflicting information has been written.  Thank you for adding it here.

Cathy, yes, and in the U.S. the laws protect our religious freedom, so they do not even have to hide that they are praying.  Students are not inhibited, except from disrupting the educational process.  (For example, it is not appropriate to refuse to do an assignment because he needs to read his Bible instead.) 

Norm, the comment you copied was not directed specifically to you, and it did not refer to anyone's "suggestion" that we break the law.  Rather to the apparent reality that we are breaking the law if we take our direct witness into the classroom.  There is no need to hide who we are, but, it is not appropriate to verbalize our faith to our students within the classroom setting (unless of course if we are in a Christian school, which is the best answer to all this for some).

The missionary question:  Yes, I even have some problems with that, although I will not go into that deeply here because it is off the blog topic, and because we are on the internet, and I don't want to contribute to putting anyone in jeopardy.  I have no problem with independently going into closed countries to share the gospel if so led by the Holy Spirit.  My problem is when the mission agency deliberately deceives the other country by setting up bogus business names (much like the FBI does) as a front for planting missionary work there, and then pays the missionary for that work.  Not problematic:  Go on your own, set up a legitimate business, and share your faith among the people.  Still very dangerous, but less deceptive.  I don't think God's ultimate plan for getting the Word out includes deception.  I suspect we as impatient Abrahams have taken it upon ourselves to lie with Hagar because we cannot imagine how else God could possibly do His work.

Finally, Norm, no I did not get any deist ideas from public schooling.  (In public school I think I learned that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and could not tell a lie, and Ben Franklin flew a kite and discovered electricity, both of which are quite questionable tales now.)  My deist ideas, which I deleted from the blog early on to avoid being side-tracked from my point, came from my own casual reading over a span of years.  Can I be wrong?  Yes, because there is so much out there to read, and most have some agenda.  Can you be wrong?  Yes, because there is so much out there to read, and most have some agenda.  I have not deliberately researched this question, so I will concede this question for the sake of the blog.  Maybe someone who has studied the founding fathers more thoroughly will take up this question.  In general, however, I do have an intellectual and spiritual need to read, not just what Christian writers have to say on issues, but what those with other viewpoints have to say.  It strengthens my own faith to have a broader understanding of the world. Thank you, Norm.  I always welcome your thoughts!

Davethepastor, I heard a panelist this week respond to a question about what we can do about the problem of churches being misled by misguided leaders.  "Have smarter pastors," was his reply.  I'm glad you are a pastor!  

Kathy-

I don't advocate that teachers teach a particular sect or denomination of Christianity as a mandated course required for graduation or advancement. I am a proponent of courses being offered as electives, with qualified teachers as instructors in an objective and informative - not for prostelyting (sp?) - manner. Back to the content of my previous blog... it is NOT UN-constitutional, as deemed so in the past 60 yrs by the "judicial tyranny" of the SCOTUS, for having a daily devotional and clergy-led prayer over the intercom (with various, volunteer clergy from the community) prior to the start of classes. This would not be mandated, but voluntary, for student participation - just like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. The same concept should allow for the posting of the 10 Commandments in our public schools, as these are symbolic of the derivation of our law. If our US Congress can begin its day with prayer and scripture, and the 10 Commandments are posted in our courthouses to acknowledge our legal tenents origins, then the same should be afforded in our public schools!

Our founding documents - the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the US Constitution and Bill of Rights - hold to the precept that our "natural rights" are ineliable... or God-given! These rights are NOT given by gvt, but by God! If these rights were "eliable", or gvt sanctioned, then the same gvt that gave them could rescind them at its pleasure or choosing. Except for the "historical revisionists" and their ever-changing version of US History, it's no big secret that the majority of our founders were devout Christians, and even the more "forward-thinking" of them - such as Jefferson and Franklin - acknowledged the superiority of the Christian faith and the need of it to remain the moral underpinning of our Republic! This ain't just "right-wing" spin... this is historical facts, and can be found in their writings and speeches as well.

Am I advocating a "theocractic gvt"? NO! My views only reflect the sentiments of the overwhelming majority of the founding fathers. And, I've fought to defend the ineliable rights of all Americans to worship - or not to worship at all - according to their own beliefs or conscience. It's our Christian foundation that affords an open society for the Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic, Hindu or athiest to worship - or not to worhip - without fear of gvt reprisal. That's why we're are the GREATEST nation ever in the history of mankind! We will only remain so if we hold fast to the values, traditions and foundational truths that made us this way!

Semper Fidelis!

Joel

Chris-

Dave Barton is "the man" when it comes to this issue. Wallbuilders is an excellent site for the truth about our Christian heritage.

Hi again Joel!  OK, I appreciate the site endorsement, but I was hoping for something more personal. You made this statement:

it's no big secret that the majority of our founders were devout Christians, and even the more "forward-thinking" of them - such as Jefferson and Franklin - acknowledged the superiority of the Christian faith and the need of it to remain the moral underpinning of our Republic! This ain't just "right-wing" spin... this is historical facts, and can be found in their writings and speeches as well.

and you got my attention.  Since apparently you have seen some Franklin and Jefferson writings that have led you to your convictions, I was hoping for a personal testimony of exactly which writings it was that led you to where you are.  I did go to the website, and I found evidence presented that George Washington was Christian, which I have already agreed with here.  But I don't have time to read through all of Franklin and Jefferson's writings!  I understand that you are as busy as I am.  Just hoped you might have some evidence at your fingertips since you made the statement.  Should you run across something even a year or so from now, I really would be interested.  Thanks, Joel! 

Kathy-

I'll find them and post them here later... I gotta' run for now, but I will post them for all to see. I just have to pull them from the sources. Be blessed!

Quote from William Penn-

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn

I have David Barton's materials as well as Peter Marshall Jr.'s. Barton's scholarship, while well intentioned isn't always the best. So I would not reply on Barton's work, and would bypass his collection of source material and go directly to where those sources would be found.

Remember, the founders who practiced Christianity were members of the Church of England in most cases. You couldn't apply the term evangelical to them by any stretch. (especially since the term was unknown then) 

When you read through the historical record, at times it is jarring to today's understanding of how Christians see government and want to relate to it. We're very comfortable with government today. The first Americans wanted as little as possible. Then there are the Baptists. :) You'd be amazed in light of how cozy we've become with government today, to see in the records things like a group of NC Baptists approaching Congress asking to abolish military chaplains entirely to prevent any endorsement of religion by government. 

Here's a source repository - the Library of Congress.

Religion and the Federal Government 

Lots of the original documents available here, and some explanations of just how the founders framed the issue of how religion should relate to government. 

WOW! Kathy, you know how to get people to talk! I agree with Youth Pastor. I have studied history and love it. God's WORD is sow throughout the fabric of our nation from its beginning and was founded as a christian nation. You are right that we as parents and pastors need to see that the Word in installed in our youth today. The schools in N.C. are allowed to form pray or Bible groups and some churches in this area meet in school facilities. (Pay rent to use)

MIke

Davethepas-

OUTSTANDING website for anyone who cares to see the religious fervor of our young republic! Thanks!

A lot of good points have been made...as well as some healthy debating. I think they should not have taken prayer out of schools. However, the state of our society would probably not be a whole lot better because, as Kathy pointed out, its the lack of prayer in the home that has contributed most to this sorry state we're in. The media is something we have limited ability to control. We can shelter our children only so much, then we have to allow them the ability to respond to their surroundings. If we give them the right tools, they will respond in the way we would like for them to. Regular prayer and Bible study will balance things better and help to counteract the negative things that our children, and ourselves, are being exposed to. 

Davethepastor, Thank you for the website help!  Norm, see Davethepastor's link for a front-page reference to prayer in congress. (still a reference to God but no mention of Jesus)

Thanks, Julia, for being a part of the discussion.  Did you bring the guacamole?   :)

Mike, a distinction I'm trying to make here:  Was "God Word sown throughout the fabric of our nation from the beginning"?  yes!  Was our nation founded on Christian principles?  yes!  Were most of the early European settlers Christian?  yes!     BUT:  Can we call men or documents "Christian" if the "Christ" part is absent? no, I don't think so.  The word "Christian" means "followers of CHRIST," not "followers of GOD.   As Christians who believe that Jesus is God, we sometimes forget that many people all over the world believe in God but are not CHRISTian!  That is, Jesus is not a part of their religion.  I have said that I may be (and would be glad to be) wrong about our founding fathers  and I invite every reader to post any original writing , especially by Benjamin Franklin or thomas Jeferson, that deals specifically with Jesus or Christianity or the Trinity.  I have no argument that they wrote about God, but does that make them Christian? I want my mind to be changed on this, so, readers, post those original quotes about Jesus! 

Wyatt, a good Penn quote, but still about God, not about Jesus.  I do not question that our founding fathers believed in or trusted God.

Brings another question to mind then Kathy.

We have, for two generations now, been introduced to the concept of a "personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ". Jesus, for most of His followers, is the lens we see through, even when we look at the past.

My question is, did the people of that period understand the Christian faith to be centered in a relationship with Jesus Christ, or (and I think this may be the case) did they see their faith resting in faith in the Father God?

If so, aren't we projecting requirements onto them when it comes to their public statements, letters, etc. that they cannot meet as they never even thought in those terms?

I know this has the potenial to frustrate many - those who want to see the nation as "Christian", and those who want to see the founders as merely giving assent to a "higher power." But what if they exercised their faith as they knew it and as the Spirit gave them insight, just as we do today?

We may be looking for proof that doesn't exist.

How do we know their concept of God was not centered around a personal relationship with Christ? What we're projecting is that they had some other concept like "the higher power."