Wow. Kathy, thank you for being bold!  I agree with you on one essential issue (among others).  As adults, we are not discipling our kids.  It's easy to blame school when we believe our children are being shorted in one area or another.  However, you are right, praying at school is a waste of time if we aren't praying at home.  Our children need an in-depth knowledge of not only what they believe, but why they believe it!  No amount of prayer time in a classroom will prepare our kids for what they will face when they leave their desks.  Besides, I learn very little about God from other's prayers.  What I learn, instead, is how distant people often are from their Savior.  I'd rather not have my kids subjected to prayers lifted up by people who don't actually believe God can do what He says He can do.  Sadly, people who actually have an intimate relationship with Jesus are rare these days. 

We love our praise and worship time and may even read our Bible.  But, on the whole, we as adult Christians are not discussing our faith or scripture with the youth of today.  It is not the schools responsibility, nor is it the church's responsibility, to disciple our kids.  It is our job.  We can't just drop them off at Sunday School and expect them to have a strong faith as adults.  If we aren't living it, they won't either. 

Thanks for starting this conversation with such thoughtfulness.

"this nation was not founded as a Christian nation" -- as you could see by my recent entry regarding voting, I wholeheartedly agree with that.

"we cannot understand what freedom means until we have experienced what it means to be without it" -- If it were me, I'd phrase it "we can't fully appreciate freedom unless we know what it is like to live w/o it."  I think many of us who've been free all our lives have a pretty good idea of what it means, but we also take it for granted often. Even the Israelites who were at one time actual slaves often ceased to be thankful to God for freeing them. I'm sure they knew what it meant to be slaves though.

And just a note on separation of church and state. It actually isn't in the constitution. There's a quote in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a congregation of Baptists in 1802, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;' thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State."

Some people claim this "wall of separation" means they are entitled to freedom from religion in public. But that isn't what Jefferson said at all.  ~mike

Soozanne, Mike, and Norm, thank you for your comments here.  Mike, I liked your wording better and made that change!  Thanks!  Norm, I realize and the deism of our founding fathers is debated, and I certainly do not claim to have the final word on that.  Therefore, since that is not really the point of my blog, I deleted that line as well.  Obviously, there are innumerous writings about the founding fathers, written with many bents and agendas. 

Norm, as for your final questions:  Question 1:  There are many who pray regularly to God but do not acknowledge Christ, the namesake of Christ-ians.  Whether the early congressmen fit into this category, I have not researched and won't venture to guess here.  Also, even at my college, when the faculty get together, we often open with prayer, but that doesn't mean our school was founded on Christianity.  If I'm missing your point, which I do occasionally, please bring me back on track!   :)    

Final Question:  I do not see any violation at all here.  As I stated in my blog, there is no ban against groups praying together at school (or anywhere).  The ban is against government-paid employees leading the religious activity within the government-funded operation.  This is for all of our protection.  Student groups are free to gather and pray or sing or study the Bible or do anything they want to do, as long as it is student led and outside of their class time.  I have prayed in my office with students many times, served as Campus Crusade for Christ advisor (studying, singing, praying, and ministering with students),  and have prayed publicly with them at "See You at the Pole."  Students may pray anytime they want.  They just cannot be mandated to do so by government employees.  Do you see this differently? 

Grace and Peace to you all!

Mike, I forgot to address your constitution comment.  You are of course correct that the term "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the Constitution, but the concept is quite evident there, much like we Christians say of the word "Trinity," which does not appear in the Bible.  The idea was there.  The name came later.

Wyatt, welcome, my brother!  lol - I would be disappointed if you took in any other stand!  You are one of the predictable opinions here on MyChurch!  Obviously you and I differ on this issue, but since my blog was written in response to the point of view you bring, it really would be incomplete without hearing your side.  And as I always say, fortunately we do not have to agree on details in order to be brother and sister in Christ.  Thank you, Wyatt, and God bless you! 

Kathy doesn't seem to support a total ban on school prayer.

Mike (Norm), my only point in posting the quote by Jefferson is that the "wall of separation" isn't in the constitution, like many people think.

This nation was founded as a nation of religious freedom, not Christian exclusivity. It so happens that a majority of the population, at least at one time, professed Christianity. Which is why public prayers were no big deal. But the Christian population is shrinking, and the founding documents do not (and cannot, nor should they) establish Christianity as the official religion. So in the legal sense the US is not a Christian nation. And in the practical sense, defined by number of practitioners, although the US was at one time a Christian nation it appears to no longer be so, and this is unfortunate! ~mike

I do not think an official time of prayer would be helpful - it would create more problems.  However, I do disagree that our children are not being forbidden to pray or hold Bible studies.  Years ago when I was in high school, I carried my Bible with me to every class.  I never read it during a lecture nor did I make a big deal out of it.  I just wanted it with me so I could read it any chance I had.  I took a lot of heat from the administration for that.  I also had to fight battles regarding wearing Christian T-shirts.  I had to fight for 2 years to start an after school Bible study at my school.  The only reason the principle gave in was ecause of legal documentation that I had to bring in.  But it still took 2 years before I was allowed to hold the study.  This was almost 20 years ago - I don't think things have gotten more open.  It may depend on where people live.  Smaller towns seem more open to Christians having freedom, but schools that are a part of a larger city (where I grew up) are much more resistant.

That being said, I know that having my Bible study and carrying my Bible also means that Muslims and and other religion should be granted that same freedom.  Schools should not be teaching religion, but neither should they separate themselves from it.  As long as a student is not disruptive, they should have their Bible if they so choose.  Just as I have no problem with a student that wants to carry a Koran to school.

I actually go one step further, and it makes people mad - but I think we should remove the Pledge of Allegiance.  Not because of the reference to God, but because - as a Christian - I do not think we should pledge allegiance to anyone or anything except for Jesus Christ. 

Thanks, Mike, for helping out!  Thanks, Bestemor, for giving me a smile!   Thanks, Cathy, for checking in! 

And Spooksam, I am so sorry to hear your story!  I can only guess that your school's reaction was our of fear and misunderstanding of the law.  I taught in the public school system for 12 years and have been in a public college for 8, and have never seen the problems you describe.  Have any of the rest of you had experiences like Spooksam's?

A privately sent response reminded me that George Washington held a strong faith in Jesus.  I had forgotten this.  The e-mailer also listed Christian quotes attributed to Jedidiah Morse, John Adams, and Patrick Henry.  I was not familiar with these quotes, but I wanted to share these names with you.  It does seem appparent, that although we were not founded constitutionally as a Christian nation, most of the earlier settlers were of Christian faith.   

Norm, I never said our nation was not built on Christian or Godly principles.  Sure it was!  Freedom and respect for all of humanity are just 2 of a plethora of Christian /Godly principles.  And I agree that most of the early European settlers were Christian.  Perhaps we are working from different definitions of founded.  When I say founded I am referring to the drafting of the Constitution of our new nation, which, although certainly based on Godly principles was not solely written for Christianity.  The founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, were amazingly forward thinking, even saying that all men were created equal, while still holding their own slaves. 

One more point I will respond to here, Norm.  I have spent my entire adult life in the schools, and  no one is forcing us to live as atheists!  I am a Christian every second of life, wherever I am.  I also respect the freedoms of every individual in my classes, as well as the Constitution of the United States, so I do not pray aloud with my students in my classroom.  That is not appropriate.  I am their Spanish teacher, not their Spiritual leader.  That said, my students know I am Christian and often come to office for spiritual discussions or for prayer, and  my door is open.  No one is forcing anyone to be atheist.  However, I suspect that if your child were in an atheist's class or a Muslim's, you would want to be very sure he kept his religious beliefs out of the classroom,  would you not?  I'm not trying to argue with you, Norm.  I just feel strongly about schools!  And hey, thanks for the star.  You gave me #100!

Kathy,

I agree almost completely with your thoughts. I also have one that I keep getting beat up for by some of my Christian friends. If we allow prayer back in school, the way most people want to define it, then we also have to allow Muslim prayer, Wicca prayers, etc. etc. In fact, if we want to fully protect our rights, we need to work dilligently to also protect the rights of people we might strongly disagree with! In the mid 70's a friend and I had a Christian bookstore, we wouldn't allow any group to hand out flyers out front. The point was made when some Krishna's came in and wanted to hand out flyers, if we had allowed any group to hand things out, we would have been required by law to allow the Krishna's to hand theirs out!

As a public school teacher, I would like prayer to be in schools...Christian Prayers.  So at least in part, I agree with Kathy.  I have difficulty when other people's belief's (non-christian) are permitted to supercede my morals, ethics, etc.  (Wiccan student's rights seem to outweigh Christian student's rights in our area/school district. That's my struggle and I don't know that there is really an answer.

On a positive note: my principal is a Born-Again believer, we have "a moment of silence" and we have a prayer wall (in my class) on the board that people can write prayer requests...and we will pray over them.  I have and will pray with my students at school, when they ask (I answer to God first).  A student once made me a cross in shop class.  I display it with all of the other art work given to me. (Side note: A self-proclaimed "child of Satan" student of mine used to walk in my room EVERYDAY and turn my cross upside-down...I would just come up with a different come back each time like -  "Hey...that's how they said some of the Disciples were crucified." etc.

It kind of makes me feel a little rebellious...but as I am walking around campus throughout the day, I sing songs of praise, pray silently, and lay hands on students (shoulders and such).  Some days I feel as though I am defeating Satan on his turf through the power of praise to the King...

God IS in the schools if WE (His children in which He dwells) are in the schools!

AngiePangie, What if the Wiccan, instead of being your student, was your child's teacher?  Would you want her to respect the law on this issue?   You are nowhere near alone on this issue, but I'd like to hear how you justify this if you want to share.  

Wyatt, that's a good point that hasn't been mentioned.  In that elusive perfect world, which brand of Christianity do we want the teacher to have?  What if he's the wrong denomination or the wrong sect of the right denomination, or too liberal, or too fundamentalist, or speaks in tongues, or advocates women in ministry, or  . . .? 

Davethepastor, Wow!  You just wrote your own blog, and it's beautiful!  Thanks for your insightful questions, and the public school vs. private school debate is a tough but very important one.  (Anyone looking for a new topic to blog?!)

Dennis, Absolutely!  Yes!

To all: My question is why we as Christians think the law applies to other religions but that it is our Christian duty to break the law?  We are in the majority, so we think we can make our own rules?  It seems harmless to us, but was this not the Nazi viewpoint as well?  (We know we are right, and God is on our side, so we are above the law, and nobody else really matters, because they're not on God's side.) 

I would highly recommend that those who think, or have been taught that America was not founded as a Christian nation take a look at the following link. David Barton is an execellent resource for the historical references and documentation that conters the secular humanist view taught in most public schools. This site is really eye opening:

www.wallbuilders.org

"Maybe the same thing that drove the Pilgrims to come over here? "

No, that can't be it, because the Pilgrims came away to practice their faith, not stayed and imposed it on everyone. That's precisely why they came - to avoid that happening to them.

 "I've also got to say I think the "roll back" thing is a strawman."

No, it's reality. Take a look at how the demographics of America have changed. And will change. I'm just wondering if people who hold that view are in "leave It To Beaver" mode. They might not be, or they may. 

"There are many bad things done in the name of Christianity..."

Are and were, just as there are in any religious system. But getting back to topic, Jesus didn't come to establish a Kingdom of this world. In a homogenous society made up of Christians, prayer in the schools happened because Christians pray. But now, we are far from homogenous, and we'd have a crazy quilt of prayers from all sorts of sources. I've noticed that some of the governmental bodies have opened with prayers from Muslims and Wiccans. Is that what we really want? If it's not, and we want only Christian prayers, then we are after something different than what the Bible laid out as the responsibilities of believers in relation to government.

History is being rewritten all the time BTW, because sources are revealed over time. The old saw about history being written by the victors is true for that generation, but after it, the real picture often comes to be seen. 

I singled it out because it has been this issue promoted for years as the reason America's culture has turned away from God. We have freedom of religion.  What we do not have is state sponsored religion. And that's a good thing, says the Baptist.

Good morning, my blogging friends!  A few responses before I head to work:

Chris, I've missed you!  Thanks for your input.  I haven't heard of wallbuilders and would want to research who they are before putting any special stock in their opinion, as all writers (and human beings) have their own biases.  We are so past the age when we can believe something because we read it somewhere, especially about a topic on which so much conflicting information has been written.  Thank you for adding it here.

Cathy, yes, and in the U.S. the laws protect our religious freedom, so they do not even have to hide that they are praying.  Students are not inhibited, except from disrupting the educational process.  (For example, it is not appropriate to refuse to do an assignment because he needs to read his Bible instead.) 

Norm, the comment you copied was not directed specifically to you, and it did not refer to anyone's "suggestion" that we break the law.  Rather to the apparent reality that we are breaking the law if we take our direct witness into the classroom.  There is no need to hide who we are, but, it is not appropriate to verbalize our faith to our students within the classroom setting (unless of course if we are in a Christian school, which is the best answer to all this for some).

The missionary question:  Yes, I even have some problems with that, although I will not go into that deeply here because it is off the blog topic, and because we are on the internet, and I don't want to contribute to putting anyone in jeopardy.  I have no problem with independently going into closed countries to share the gospel if so led by the Holy Spirit.  My problem is when the mission agency deliberately deceives the other country by setting up bogus business names (much like the FBI does) as a front for planting missionary work there, and then pays the missionary for that work.  Not problematic:  Go on your own, set up a legitimate business, and share your faith among the people.  Still very dangerous, but less deceptive.  I don't think God's ultimate plan for getting the Word out includes deception.  I suspect we as impatient Abrahams have taken it upon ourselves to lie with Hagar because we cannot imagine how else God could possibly do His work.

Finally, Norm, no I did not get any deist ideas from public schooling.  (In public school I think I learned that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and could not tell a lie, and Ben Franklin flew a kite and discovered electricity, both of which are quite questionable tales now.)  My deist ideas, which I deleted from the blog early on to avoid being side-tracked from my point, came from my own casual reading over a span of years.  Can I be wrong?  Yes, because there is so much out there to read, and most have some agenda.  Can you be wrong?  Yes, because there is so much out there to read, and most have some agenda.  I have not deliberately researched this question, so I will concede this question for the sake of the blog.  Maybe someone who has studied the founding fathers more thoroughly will take up this question.  In general, however, I do have an intellectual and spiritual need to read, not just what Christian writers have to say on issues, but what those with other viewpoints have to say.  It strengthens my own faith to have a broader understanding of the world. Thank you, Norm.  I always welcome your thoughts!

Davethepastor, I heard a panelist this week respond to a question about what we can do about the problem of churches being misled by misguided leaders.  "Have smarter pastors," was his reply.  I'm glad you are a pastor!  

Hi again Joel!  OK, I appreciate the site endorsement, but I was hoping for something more personal. You made this statement:

it's no big secret that the majority of our founders were devout Christians, and even the more "forward-thinking" of them - such as Jefferson and Franklin - acknowledged the superiority of the Christian faith and the need of it to remain the moral underpinning of our Republic! This ain't just "right-wing" spin... this is historical facts, and can be found in their writings and speeches as well.

and you got my attention.  Since apparently you have seen some Franklin and Jefferson writings that have led you to your convictions, I was hoping for a personal testimony of exactly which writings it was that led you to where you are.  I did go to the website, and I found evidence presented that George Washington was Christian, which I have already agreed with here.  But I don't have time to read through all of Franklin and Jefferson's writings!  I understand that you are as busy as I am.  Just hoped you might have some evidence at your fingertips since you made the statement.  Should you run across something even a year or so from now, I really would be interested.  Thanks, Joel! 

I have David Barton's materials as well as Peter Marshall Jr.'s. Barton's scholarship, while well intentioned isn't always the best. So I would not reply on Barton's work, and would bypass his collection of source material and go directly to where those sources would be found.

Remember, the founders who practiced Christianity were members of the Church of England in most cases. You couldn't apply the term evangelical to them by any stretch. (especially since the term was unknown then) 

When you read through the historical record, at times it is jarring to today's understanding of how Christians see government and want to relate to it. We're very comfortable with government today. The first Americans wanted as little as possible. Then there are the Baptists. :) You'd be amazed in light of how cozy we've become with government today, to see in the records things like a group of NC Baptists approaching Congress asking to abolish military chaplains entirely to prevent any endorsement of religion by government. 

Here's a source repository - the Library of Congress.

Religion and the Federal Government 

Lots of the original documents available here, and some explanations of just how the founders framed the issue of how religion should relate to government. 

WOW! Kathy, you know how to get people to talk! I agree with Youth Pastor. I have studied history and love it. God's WORD is sow throughout the fabric of our nation from its beginning and was founded as a christian nation. You are right that we as parents and pastors need to see that the Word in installed in our youth today. The schools in N.C. are allowed to form pray or Bible groups and some churches in this area meet in school facilities. (Pay rent to use)

MIke

A lot of good points have been made...as well as some healthy debating. I think they should not have taken prayer out of schools. However, the state of our society would probably not be a whole lot better because, as Kathy pointed out, its the lack of prayer in the home that has contributed most to this sorry state we're in. The media is something we have limited ability to control. We can shelter our children only so much, then we have to allow them the ability to respond to their surroundings. If we give them the right tools, they will respond in the way we would like for them to. Regular prayer and Bible study will balance things better and help to counteract the negative things that our children, and ourselves, are being exposed to. 

Davethepastor, Thank you for the website help!  Norm, see Davethepastor's link for a front-page reference to prayer in congress. (still a reference to God but no mention of Jesus)

Thanks, Julia, for being a part of the discussion.  Did you bring the guacamole?   :)

Mike, a distinction I'm trying to make here:  Was "God Word sown throughout the fabric of our nation from the beginning"?  yes!  Was our nation founded on Christian principles?  yes!  Were most of the early European settlers Christian?  yes!     BUT:  Can we call men or documents "Christian" if the "Christ" part is absent? no, I don't think so.  The word "Christian" means "followers of CHRIST," not "followers of GOD.   As Christians who believe that Jesus is God, we sometimes forget that many people all over the world believe in God but are not CHRISTian!  That is, Jesus is not a part of their religion.  I have said that I may be (and would be glad to be) wrong about our founding fathers  and I invite every reader to post any original writing , especially by Benjamin Franklin or thomas Jeferson, that deals specifically with Jesus or Christianity or the Trinity.  I have no argument that they wrote about God, but does that make them Christian? I want my mind to be changed on this, so, readers, post those original quotes about Jesus! 

Wyatt, a good Penn quote, but still about God, not about Jesus.  I do not question that our founding fathers believed in or trusted God.

Brings another question to mind then Kathy.

We have, for two generations now, been introduced to the concept of a "personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ". Jesus, for most of His followers, is the lens we see through, even when we look at the past.

My question is, did the people of that period understand the Christian faith to be centered in a relationship with Jesus Christ, or (and I think this may be the case) did they see their faith resting in faith in the Father God?

If so, aren't we projecting requirements onto them when it comes to their public statements, letters, etc. that they cannot meet as they never even thought in those terms?

I know this has the potenial to frustrate many - those who want to see the nation as "Christian", and those who want to see the founders as merely giving assent to a "higher power." But what if they exercised their faith as they knew it and as the Spirit gave them insight, just as we do today?

We may be looking for proof that doesn't exist.

How do we know their concept of God was not centered around a personal relationship with Christ? What we're projecting is that they had some other concept like "the higher power."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776

"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756.

"Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson To William Canby, 1813

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—"   Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush On April 21, 1803

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters, ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40.

Those certainly seem to indicate that some of the founders did indeed have a sense of reponsibility to Jesus.

Let's say that they all were Christians (even though they might not all have been).

Did they set out to create a "Christian" nation, or just a nation in which each person was free to follow God as each saw fit?  

UH OH:

Ben Franklin:

Ahhh, but there's the rub!

Christianity is the ultimate expression of freedom. Freedom of choice! Our fathers knew if Christianity was to reach its fullest potential, it must be reached by choice, not by force.

"What is different about the teacher?"

He/she is an agent of the state, Norm. That's a huge difference.

I'm sorry if I confused you concerning other religions praying.

By way of example though, there's an AP story today that the ACLU has filed suit against the state of NC, because a woman was not able to swear her oath on the Koran. The ACLU attorney said that the government needs to get out of the business of prescribing what religion's text has worth. This is what happens when we entangle religion with government.

If we open up prayer to every teacher's descretion, then each teacher will pray to their God. I'm just not comfortable with a Hindu praying over my child or walking into the classroom and seeing all the kids on prayer rugs.

To answer your last question - yes, any individual can pray to the deity of their choice, or not pray at all. Prayer has never left schools, only state sponsored prayer. 

WOW...I take my eyes off of this blog for 24 hours or so and there are 20 something comments...Kathy...you have quite a discussion going on here!

About the Wiccan Question you asked

 What if the Wiccan, instead of being your student, was your child's teacher?  Would you want her to respect the law on this issue? 

Great question!  What I was saying was that I would LOVE Christian prayer to be back in the school...that's it.  I understand because of the religious freedoms we have here in America (which I do not take for granted), this is not going to happen.  I would never pray aloud with a student unless they asked me.  I also had a student ask me once..."How can I be saved?"  I got her phone number and address and called her parent, asked for permission to come over, and prayed with her there (at her house).  I do have a respect for the law.  We are supposed to uphold the law, as Christians.  Nothing I have done in my classroom has broken any laws.  The ACLU may think rights have been vioated (they do when you silently pray for students with out there permission), but they are not the governing body.

I know what you are saying about other religions and their rights.  The comment I made about other religions...here's a true short story about what goes on sometimes:

In our Parish, the kids wear uniforms to school.  Once a term, they are allowed to have a "free dress day" if they make honor roll.  One child wore a skull and cross bone shirt, another wore a fairy shirt, one wore a "Just be" shirt (this is from Conversations with God...new age), and my friend's son wore a tshirt that simply said "Satan is a nerd".  The principal made him go home and told his mother it was offensive.  She asked "To who?"  He said "Kids that may not think Satan is a nerd!".  I do realize that the shirt was maybe a bit over the top, but not one of the other kids were asked to change or sent home.

My son was asked to remove his crucifix necklace because the teacher felt it was a "safety hazzard"...figure that one!

To answer the question you asked, yes, I would want the law followed if the teacher was a wiccan...but unless she "acted" like a wiccan, how would my son ever know her affiliation?  As Chrisitians, they see our fruit.

The best point made in the blog was that the call to educate is NOT given to the public school teachers, but to parents and families.  If we're not educating our kids at home, then all that's happening is they're being set up to absorb whatever they're given in school.  Kids are sponges -- they'll indiscriminately soak up whatever's given to them.  If you want them to get through school with their relationship with Christ intact, YOU need to be the one to take enough initiative to disciple them that way.  I don't care how much the extra overtime helps out -- your kids' spiritual well-being trumps it.  No more excuses, get back to discipling your child(ren) today.

My mom has been working for the school district here in SoCal for about 20 years now, and she can tell you pretty straight just what kind of change in curiculum has taken place over those 20 or so years.  Teachers aren't allowed to teach abstinence, but they're mandated to teach about homosexuality as an "acceptable alternative"...they're not allowed to teach in-depth about what Christianity is and all, but they're mandated to teach in-depth about Islam, and convey it as a "respectable and peace-loving religion".  These are just two of the more hot-button subjects; I could probably add a couple dozen more, if time permitted.  Anyone who thinks that those who are mandating the curiculum for the public schools are not doing so from a very liberal agend, well, they're either doing as the ostrich does, or they just haven't been paying any attention.

Oh yeah, did I mention that my mom works for an elementary school?  That's an important point.  These things aren't just being taught to junior high and high school kids, no....they're targetting them younger and younger, seemingly by the year now.

As a children's ministry and youth ministry leader for several years now, I can't tell you how it breaks my heart to see kids who know so much about so much filth being taught to them in schools, and their parents have no idea.  Equally tragic as most parents blaming lack of proper education on the schoolteachers is that most parents also come to us complaining when their kids aren't displaying "Christian" behavior at home -- again, discipleship training and education are PARENTS' responsibility, not the school teachers, and not the children's/youth ministry leaders.  Yeah, we try to do what we can with the short time we have them, but unless it's being lived out at home, it ain't gonna make one whit o' difference.

For the point regarding the faith of the founding fathers, I found a good quotation encyclopedia my William J. Federer called "America's God and Country".  It's on my profile page here (the bookcover is light tan/pinkish), second from the right on the middle row, and clicking on it will take you to the amazon.com page for it where you can pick up your own copy as low as 3 or 4 bucks (used).  Money well spent, if you ask me, as the book has several hundred pages worth of quotations (and contexts for the quotations -- very important) from more "important people" than you could shake TWO sticks at.  :)

Time for us all to step up and get back to discipleship, eh?

-pj 

Let's not forget that the main "textbook" in school was the Bible up until relatively recently in American History...then look today at how a teacher would probably get fired for reading the Bible to their class for any type of "real instruction"...

Could you just see a teacher cracking open Proverbs to teach the class about how to avoid major life problems by employing Godly wisdom?  Heaven would open, golden rays of sunshine would shine through the ceiling, angels would sing and the rocks would cry out....ok, maybe not that much, but it would still be great!!

-jason 

The idea of engaging culture really is at the heart of the question of "putting prayer back into schools", so let me take a run at that and let's see where it leads us in our discussion, friends.

Jesus' message while He was on earth was consistent "repent and believe, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." He was the literal embodiment of what a "Kingdom" citizen should look like and act like in His interaction with humanity. So I agree His actions and words should have great benefit to us as we look at what to do.

 "We are to engage this godless culture because it is godless."

I'm in wholehearted agreement. The only question for me to work out in relation to that is how.

In the examples given, Jesus was engaging the religious culture, not the secular government. When He cleared the temple courts, it was to restore them (the only place a Gentile could draw near to the Temple system of sacrifices) to God's purposes. People were using that court like a mini-mall to hawk merchandise and using it as a cut-through to other parts of the temple. His words and actions were forceful, precisely because the actions of the religious were blocking people's access to God and making a mockery of religious practices.

Hold that event alongside the account of Jesus' paying His taxes. "Render under Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". Add into it Jesus' words before Pilate "My kingdom is not of this world...". Then lay alongside that Jesus' instruction about prayer "When you pray go into your private room..."

Could it be that at this point in time, forcing school prayer into the classroom would earn us the same non-PC reaction from Jesus as the religious of His time received?

The question of when prayer in schools began -

"The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire. The overriding belief on educating the children was more due to religious reasons and was easy to implement, as the only groups in existence were the Puritans and the Congregationalists. However, the influx of people from many countries and belonging to different faiths led to a weakening of the concept. People refused to learn only in English and opposed the clergy imposing their religious views through public education. By the middle of the eighteenth century, private schooling had become the norm.

Take a look at that link and maybe there's some additional light on the question "What would the Founders have done?"

It is difficult to consider a concept that seems opposed to what we have heard and repeated all our lives, and that's good.  We definitely need to be cautious with changing our thinking, especially on spiritual issues.  But sometimes what we have been taught is lacking, and we need to stretch ourselves to see a broader picture.  Freedom of Religion:  That is what I'm trying to get us to examine here.  It has been mainly in recent years that segments of our Christian society have begun to make attempts to turn our nation into a Christian nation.  This sounds good on the surface.  I agree.  But when we look a little closer, we see a real danger and a true diversion from the whole meaning of Freedom of Religion. 

Christians have become smug.  We are the majority, and being any kind of majority brings a sense of power.  Also, it is the nature of Christianity (as it is with other religions) to see our faith as superior to all others, the only "right" way, and thus we conclude that it is surely God's will that we take over the world, and anyone who is not with us doesn't really matter anyway.  It's their choice.  They can join us if they want.  Right?

I believe Christianity is right too, but let's step back for a second.  From a world view, how is this attitude different from that of the Muslim countries, where a professing Christian is ostracized from the entire village and maybe killed?  How is it different from Hitler's supremicist attitude of wanting to purge the world of anyone who did not fit his mold (Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals, Handicapped people . . .)?  How is it different from white supremicists in hooded capes?  How is it different from  General Trujillo in the Domincan Republic, who tried to purge his country of anyone against his rule or of darker skin pigment?  "It's not the same!" you say, and it's not, exactly, but it is not as far as we like to think.

Freedom of Religion means freedom for every individual person, regardless of religious practice.  It means the freedom to be Christian, which is a freedom much of the world doesn't have!  But it also means freedom to be any other religion or no religion at all if that is the person's choice.  And because of this freedom of religion, there are also responsibilities that come with protecting it.  The responsibility to respect every other human being's freedom.  This means that in the public schools we do not expect our children to be taught spiritual lessons. 

I hear many of you saying, "but the other religions are being taught in the schools.  Why not ours?"  I won't argue that there may be such isolated instances somewhere, but for the most part, this is not the case, and it is certainly just as illegal as Christian proselytizing in the classroom.  Nor is it the case that Christianity cannot be talked about as a religion just as any other can, but none of them can be advocated in the classroom.   And as we tell our children, "We don't do things just because everyone else is doing it."  (When our children tell us this, we know that "everyone" is not really doing it anyway.  Likewise with this issue.)  When pertinent to the discussion, there is no law against discussing a religion or the Bible objectively, nor is there a law against teaching about Hinduism or Islam.  There's a huge distinction between teaching about something and advocating adherence to something.  The advocating is not the business of public schools, and should not be.  This training belongs in our homes and in our churches. 

Freedom of Religion is a precious treasure, one that all the world is not afforded.  As Christians, rather than trying to change from religious freedom  to a national religion, can we not lead the way to protect these freedoms, freedoms that, yes, were carefully ascribed to our nation from its beginning?  Can we move from thinking Religious Freedom means "Christians can proselytize anywhere and any way they choose," to "Every individual, regardless of religious belief, has the right to practice his or her religion, or not, without their children being indoctrinated by a forced religion"?  This is a larger issue than our rights as Christians.  This is about our rights as human beings. 

If we cannot make these concessions, Christian schools are an alternative.  There religious training is appropriate, and for some, that is an excellent option.  As can be home-schooling.  But that's a topic for another blog. 

Howard and THT, welcome to our discussion.  AngiePangie, your Christianity in the classroom sounds right on target, as I'm sure you are not announcing in the class when you pray silently.  I wish our schools were filled with with teachers who share Christ's love through their lives.  Wyatt, excellent question.  There's also the "In God We Trust" on our money, and "one nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance.  I will not try to change your mind about public schools, as I understand that you and I are equally passionate and opinionated.   :)     You have helped a great deal in rounding out this discussion, and you have added new dimensions to my thinking.  David, your insight is always refreshing and redirecting! 

Kathy, In answer to your question to me. Yes, you are right. With this nation found on the principles of the Bible, not all who were a supporter were christians. I am not above correction. Thanks,

Mike

I think you might be mistaken when you say "there might be isolated incidents, but for the most part this is not the case", since the "isolated incidents" are springing directly from state-mandated curiculum.  All it takes is a walk into a classroom, or better yet, a glance through the textbooks.  Just watch and see: the foundations are already being laid for Islam to "jump the pond", and if things keep going the way they are, before you know it we'll be looking like Europe in terms of religious views and freedoms.

And if that doesn't scare you a little, you haven't been paying attention to Europe very much.

The state, in an effort to show how "tolerant" they are (or at least that's the public version of the story), has chosen to overly support Islam, the homosexual agenda, and various other hot-button issues that sway the minds of a great deal of public school children who quite frankly aren't being taught anything at home!  The sponges absorb, and the result?  I'll never forget the first time I had a second-grader tell me the more detailed points of why homosexuality is a great choice, repeating what he was told in class that day.  We can poo-poo it, pretend it's not as bad as "some people say", but all the while it's getting nothing but worse.

Our kids are being preyed upon by Satan himself, and most Christians just don't give a rip.  And honestly, that sickens me.

 -J
 

I agree with you full heartedly. I myself, a sophmore in highschool, have practiced these freedoms on many occasions by leading a obviously student led bible study, and also openly praying on many occasions daily at school. It is ridiculous to even begin thinking about making it mandatory from a Christian's point of view and also and American's point of view...

I actually joined just so I could leave you a message to let you know how much I personally and my fellows do and will appreciate your comment. ^.^

 I am a follower of Asatru (think Norse mythology), and prior to that I was a sort of unitarian pagan. Unfortunately I went to high school in the Bible Belt; while this in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, I was exposed to a profusion of exactly the type of Christians you mentioned. For years I had a terrible opinion of Christians and Christianity in general. This changed in college when I met one or two good people who showed me what Christianity was supposed to be about. Unfortunately, people like that are rare, and I appreciate each one I encounter. 

 I've heard many, many stories about how people have been persecuted for being Christians in other countries, and even more about my peers suffer the "burden of their faith." Let me tell you...from the other side of the coin, it's just as terrible. Every single day of my high school life I had to endure questions like "Why do you worship Satan?" or people yelling and screaming that I was going to hell. During some of the "See You at the Pole!" prayer meetings we were encouraged to attend, some pagan friends of mine and I were planning to have our own prayer group close by in support, but the idea was quickly squashed when our fellow students threatened to beat us up if we so much as showed our faces. When the idea of prayer in school was broached during a debate once in class, I suggested that the prayer be nonspecific enough that Jewish, Muslim, and pagan students could be included, and that it not be mandatory so that athiests didn't feel pressured; this idea was shot down immediately and I got more negativity because of my idea than I would have if I'd protested outright.

 For so long, every pagan or non-Christian I've known (myself included) has heard over and over that while everyone has the freedom to be Christian, we don't have the freedom to practice our own religions. We've heard that our nation was founded on Christianity, and anything less is un-American. Also, it's a wide assumption that "non-Christian" means "anti-Christian," and that hurts! 

So thank you. Thank you for your free thought and your courage to broach such a hot topic. Thank you for making me feel like there's hope for us and for our children when they attend school. Thank you for acknowledging our freedoms. Hopefully our great nation will be more accepting in the future with the influence of people like you. Kudos, and blessed be.

This nation is a Christian Nation even to this day albeit an apostate one. Suffice it to say that Judge Roy Moore is completely correct in his analysis. I have no idea where the author of this blog has come up with such a lamebrained idea but I will do all in my power to refute it...but it will take time...

 I would encourage the author to read up on our history starting with the Diaries of William Bradshaw. This nation was founded upon the Gospel like none other in history. It was to be a city set upon a hill shedding the light to all peoples.

I would say that, yes, there has always been a separation of church and state to the degree that they have different functions. However, a better blog title is should we separate school from state. The answer, Biblically, is clearly YES.

Rather than removing or putting back prayer in the "schools" let's remove the schools and get our taxpayer money BACK from the scam. 

Kathy,

   I've reread your weird blog. You say America is Founded on Freedom. I ask from whence comes that Freedom. The answer is Christ in our Foundation. The schools are prisons, plain and simple. Why should we NOT blame the schools. THE PROBLEM IS THE SCHOOLS!! The schools have poured forth filth for years: sexual perversion, evilution,  creation of drug addicts through false MENTAL analysis of children, Look-Say/Whole Language idiocy, "democracy", and all types of anti-God perversions and you say they are NOT to blame. You have to be kidding. The great thing is that multitudes are leaving or never getting involved in these people robbing institutions anymore and are actually educating their large homeschool families.

Father, we pray for a quick end to these wicked, government schools, Amen! 

This from the former National public School teacher of the year.

I have read the LIght and the Glory, and from Sea to Shining Sea.. and I've seen Peter Marshall in person but thankyou. You are correct, they had a vision. Kathy is wrong though in calling the Framers (Madison, Adams, etc.) Founders. The founders would be about 100 years earlier. The Spritual Father of the Country was Winthrop.

For even more additional facts. BTW, I am aware of your facts. I would point you to an excellent book on the Framers called Political Polytheism by Dr. Gary North and follow that with Conspiracy in Philadelphia. Read those and get back to me.

 As to freedom, the nation is not nearly as free as it was 100 years ago and even better, try 200 years ago. Nowadays, you need permits for everything (nearly all of them are unconstitutional).

You cannot force someone to be a Christian.  Radical Islam forces people to believe, or die by the sword.  Christ ASKED you to follow  Christ ASKED you to accept his sacrifice on the cross so that you may enter Heaven.  It is not forced.

To turn around something that a lot of anti-christian people say  - "Why would I want to go to a heaven where you people are?", I say,  why force those that CHOOSE not to have Jesus in their lives?

You can't be forcefully saved.  That's not what Christianity is.   

  God gave us free will, and at the end of our lives, if we chose NOT to be saved, then we get what we want.  God only wants us to be happy, and too many of us think that's not through Him.  They'll learn that in time - even though it may not be 'in time' for salvation.

Thanks, Kathy! I just might do that.

I have to commend you again on accepting opinions with an even hand. It's not often you can find someone willing to agree to disagree.

Or Martin Luther's. The problem basically IS the governmental state schools. Who was it John Dunphy or Dumphy in the Humanist that said that the humanist pulpit was the government school? I'll find the quote. Anyway, these skrools are a tremendous success in that their purpose (original) of the unitarians and humanists that designed them was to socialize (communize, now it's called democracy, in the schools) is being met. Now, we have a nation of mind-numbed robots that lick Caesar's boots and want to persecute Christians.

No, as I said above, Kathy asks the wrong question. The question is when will we see that there needs to be a separation of school from state? 

Here it is: "The battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: A religion of humanity -- utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to carry humanist values into wherever they teach. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new -- the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."

And Dunphy typifies the mentality of the state schools. 

Great post, Kathy!!  To what you said how it isn't illegal to pray in school, below is something I found on AnswersInGenesis.  I was directed here from a comment in one of my blogs on Hindu prayer in the Senate.

I think I'll pontificate:

Kathy, I think you hit it right on the money.  As I see it the verse in Romans 12 covers this:

18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

To me, this verse says it's not my job to make people change so I can be happy.  It's also not my job to make people change so they can be happy.  The only person I can change is me, so why waste my time forcing things on others.

I'm very grateful we have separation of Church and State in this country.  Every time a religious movement gains political power, the integrity of the religious movement suffers.  The Church is in a bad enough state now, imagine what it would be like if the Church was also the government.

I have to admit - I'm very concerned at the tendency of Christians to grab on to any argument to try to force people to do things "our" way.  Martin Luther never voted in the US, never attended school here.  It really seems odd that so many Christians think quotes from documents written hundreds of years ago will get people to change today.  Since when is it our job as Christians to force America to do things our way (which is assumed to be Christlike, but may not be)?

I can't see anyone coming to Christ through legislation or politics.  In fact, I think many more people turn away from Christ because of these movements.  What do these movements really acheive anyway?  I've never heard any of these movements state they are out to bring people to Jesus.  In my opinion, they seem to cause more strife than peace.

There is an increasing minority that are calling for Christians to remove their children from the perverted schools. Both in the PCA and in the S. Baptist conventions. It is only a matter of time before we finally do have this proper separation of state from school.

I will go back to my thesis that Kathy has asked the wrong question. The fact is the future is NOT fixed and we can alter the dreadful mistake of the Unitarians in instituting "public" schools with a proper return to private, Christian, and homeschools in this country.

We pull out old quotes because those who do not know history are doomed to repeat past mistakes. This is one of the grave errors. Kathy, mentioned above the confusion between framers and founders. I only mentioned it because battles are won and lost at the level of the language. We must NOT adopt the language of the enemy no matter how old fashioned it might make us look.

Now, Kathy is again right on noticing the Unitarian nature of Rush and of others like him. This is NOT a positive though but a negative. The problem is that Christians often underestimate the influence of the framers while humanists underestimate the Christian nature of the environment surrounding these men that, in fact, kept many of them such as Jefferson in check. They were an elite group, many were Unitarians and Masons and this was to the detriment of the country but that's for another blog.

I guess, maybe going back to Kathy's question that framed as the question might be, though not a good question IMHO, I would probably agree in not putting prayer back into our schools at this point but still I'd say let's put the schools out of business and return to the free market with this whole schooling thing. THAT would be a great improvement on today. IOW, let the witches have their own schools, let the sodomites have their own schools, etc. only let them pay for the schools not my taxes!!! 

Thanks, Pastor Tim.  You said: 
"the overarching religious principle that governed America was Christianity." 

Although all our founding fathers cannot be characterized as Christian, I am in agreement with you that most of America was!  Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

It's about time! Hallelujah, let the revival begin.

Notice the true statement at the end of the article:

"Most evangelicals are biblically ignorant and uninformed," said Edward E. Gamble, director of the Southern Baptist Association of Christian Schools, a Florida outfit hosting this week's workshop. "We think it's time we took ownership of the education of our children."

Next step is the separation of school from state 

Then, we can get our tax monies back that have been methodically stolen by the government in violation of the 9th commandment! 

An article just posted by Brandon Lee of North Korean college students being arrested for having a Bible:  http://www.mychurch.org/blog/160586/Being-Punished-for-having-a-bible-and-chirstian-dvd  This is what it means not to have freedom of religion!

Freedom of Religion

Okay...after an hour of reading so much infomation, I can not comment on all of it. But Freedom of Religion stands out.

I'm so glad that you, Kathy, have the freedom to enjoy all the years of See You at the Pole gatherings. One year, a few years back, my daughter heard our Christian radio station talking about this. She asked why it was so important to stand united in prayer in front of our peers.

Freedom of Religion

As a Christian, I believe in "free will", in choices and being able to choose if I want to be a Christian (or Muslim, or Wiccan, or Buddhist, or New Ager, or whatever...all of which I was at one time). The problem is Christianity believes in choices and freedom. Many other religions do not.

Freedom of Religion

My daughter went to the principle and asked if she could organize a See You at the Pole event at her elementary school. We were bombarded with NO. It's against the law. You are not allowed to participate in prayer to God on public property.

Freedom of Religion

I took an Islam education course that was offered by my church. Mostly because I was once quite close to that religion and I wanted to hear what the Muslim speakers were going to say to the Christian congregation. A question was asked to one of the females about how they handle their noon time prayer when the children attend a public school. The school lets the child lay a rug in the corner of the classroom, during class, while class instruction and activity is happening so he may say his prayers in class with everyone watching.

Freedom of Religion

My daughter continued with her plans, after showing legal rights to assemble on public property from a lawyer, and 3 years later we had 30 students in prayer around the flag pole. Did the Muslim have to present legal papers in order for her son to pray during class time, interrupting class?

Freedom of Religion

When I was in high school, I had a teacher give a 6 week lesson titled "Evolution vs. Creation". After news crews visited our school and threats to the teacher for "teaching religion", we never did finish the lesson. (This was almost 30 years ago.)

Freedom of Religion

I was once asked, "if freedom of religion means freedom for all religions, how would I feel about the Quran being posted in the White House along with the Bible?" Simple answer: It would never happen. Because the Quran wouldn't be allowed to be displayed where there is a Holy Bible displayed. Islam does not allow freedom of other religions. When that time comes, Christianity in our nation will be as Christianity in other nations where we have to converse in secret.

Freedom of Religion

Freedom of whose religion? All religions, or only those that disallow Christianity? What is happening is other religions are pushing Christianity out. When an athiest requires removing a historical symbol (because it is Christian from the religious history of our country) because it is denying his/her rights to not have a religion, it's saying that he/she does have a religion. A religion of no belief and that belief is being pushed on me. If an athiest really had no belief one way or another, then it wouldn't matter to him/her one way or another. If Christians don't take a loving stand on their belief and not allow it to be pushed out of our culture, we better have the Word in our hearts, because it will not be allowed in our hands. And yes, you read correctly....WHEN the time comes.

Freedom of Religion

or Freedom of No Religion

or Freedom of the Religion that Pushes All Other Religions Out?

MT, first I love your passion.  I can tell this issue is one of importance to you, as it should be to all of us.  As I have said before, I have not shared or observed the kinds of experiences you talk about, although I have read many similar views, and I certainly do not discount what others have experienced.  I am probably sheltered somewhat by living and working in the Bible Belt.  The law, however, apllies to all the nation equally, so we have to ask why these discrepancies are occurring.  I surmise for mostly two reasons: 

1) Lack of education and understanding of the laws.  Teachers and administrators do not know the law and therefore err on the side of "safety."  (Or just the opposite: Christian teachers without an understanding or respect for the law, taking their full witness into the public classroom.)

2) Misinterpretation of events.  I suspect many of the reports we hear come from a predetermined bias that Christians are being discriminated against, coupled with interpreting events without having access to all the facts.

Take for example your high school science class experience.  That ordeal could have been either of these two.  A six week lesson on evolution vs. creation, 30 years ago or today, sounds like a departure from the state curriculum, a departure created by the teacher, probably with a religious agenda.  As a Christian teen, I'm sure you were not privy to all the behind the scenes conversations this caused, and were only able to interpret the events through your own lens of understanding at the time.  I suspect there was a legitimate breach there of separation of church and state.  Although it is legal to offer creation as one possible theory, it is not legal to teach it as "The Gospel Truth" (except of course in private/Christian schools).  

I'm glad your daughter continued with her plans for See You at the Pole.  This is within the rights of any student, even without administrative permission, perhaps even most appropriately without it, as public prayer cannot be initiated by government paid employees, and the administrator may have been afraid to give a personal OK to the activity, again being uncomfortable with the interpretation of the law.  That doesn't keep employees, however, from joining the students in prayer should they so choose, although SYATP is a student initiated project.

I certainly do not claim to know the specifics about your personal experiences, and as I said, many others across the country share similar stories, from which, hopefully, we will hear and learn.  Thank you for sharing your passionate thoughts on this, as discussion is a beginning point to growth for all of us. 

Thank you, Grant!  Please see my comments to MT, in response to your comment as well.  I always appreciate hearing your wisdom.

Thanks, Kathy. I know you are bringing to light subjects that we all need to think about and determine our course of actions. On a personal note, I would love for our world to become so bad that I have to secretly reach God's people, because then I know the end is near and Jesus will be fully glorified. As a Christian, I want to bring about the quicking of the end times. But also, as a Christian, I fear for those who will be lost.

I know you have a good knowledge of the Bible and understand my fearful reasons, as I'm sure you are well aware of the prophecies of the end times. (Daniel just scares me to sleeplessness.) But these times are coming quicker than we can imagine. I have so many stories of Christian persecution from all over the world, as well as right here in the United States. Check out the Family Resource Council for information, as well as Samaritan's Purse. I was lucky to go to a lecture with General Georges Sadas, Former Top Iraqi General and Military Advisor for Suddan Hussein, and I recommend his speaking engagements to anyone interested in knowing what's happening in the world. See Terry Law Ministries.

I know of people that when I email, I have to check off a list of "Do Not Say" to protect their lives as they work in China and So Africa. If I end my email with "God Bless You" which I usually do, they may be killed for "Associating with Christians".

"Lack of Education" from our teachers is not an excuse to err. Our teachers should be highly educated, and if not maybe we should find someone who is educated to teach our children. (Many times the 3Rs are not being taught. It's being replaced with ideas, beliefs, and morals that should be left to the family and not in the schools. Such as, in 4th grade, my daughter learned how to use household chemicals to become high as taught by the drug abuse section mandated by the government. By 6th grade, she knows how and where to get a condom and an abortion, as mandated by the government. Luckily, we've kept open and honest discussions between us. But what about all the kids without such family support?)

The reason it's on the "side of safety" is because Christian's will take a "back-seat" to other religions. The more we take a "back-seat" the more we will have to gather in secrecy. It's not normal for a Christian to sue a school system because they have to witness someone else's freedom, as many from other religions do. Many of us are not asking for their freedom to disappear. We just ask for the SAME freedom.

"Misinterpretation of Events" is usually from people who are in safe and secure places and they often do not think Christians are being persecuted. They have not had the experiences many others have had in these persecutions. I travel across town (20 miles) to go to my methodist church. I was appalled to see that their definition of diverse was accepting their CRC neighbors. When I explained that I live in a community of whites, blacks, hispanics, Christians, non-christians of varying religions, Romanians, and Polish, they started to see that they didn't know anything about diversity. Their ideas of having a neighborly dispute was over whether the grass should be cut on Sunday or not. Our neighborly disputes are over drug use, violence, and sexually explicit behaviors that are not always kept inside. Interpretation has to do with experiences.

(And by the way, the science class was just highlighting all the different theories, not emphasising one over the other. And she could continue with the lesson as long as the creation section was removed.) 

I highly recommend that people expand their horizons and do some reading about the state of affairs in our world. Lack of education is not an excuse. Please keep an eye out for a blog I'm drafting about our American Flag. It has much to do with the core foundation of our nation as discussed throughout this blog, on which I have not commented. Thank you.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the
Two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments
Engraved on each lower portion of each door.


DID YOU KNOW?


As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see
The wall, right above where the Supreme Court
judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!




DID YOU KNOW?





There are Bible verses etched in stone all
over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in
Washington , D.C.
DID YOU KNOW?



James Madison, the fourth president, known as
'The Father of Our Constitution' made the
following statement:

' We have staked the whole of all our political
institutions upon the capacity of mankind for
self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control
ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to
the Ten Commandments of God.'

DID YOU KNOW?


Every session of Congress begins with a prayer
by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid
by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?



Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the
Constitution were members of the established
orthodox churches in the colonies.
DID YOU KNOW?
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would
overstep their authority and instead of
interpreting the law would begin making law
an oligarchy
the rule of few over many.