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| An endless contradiction, weighing heavily on me |
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Is there a contradiction between these passages of scripture, or is it just me? First, righteous comes from God: 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
But we're also told in scripture that righteousness comes from our efforts: 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Are we justified freely, or are we justified by what we do? Is our righteousness from God, is it by our own efforts, or by some mixture of the two?
I am growing weary of the constant battles against “perfectionists”, those who insist that, although we are “justified freely”, we have to justify ourselves from that point on. If I must truly be perfect in order to get anywhere with God…then I am…doomed.
The way I understand it, when we believe, we are accepted, in fact, embraced, by the living God, as his children. He calls us to believe, then gives us the power to behave. Those who don’t behave, lack belief (faith). To get someone to behave, to me it makes more sense to urge them to believe rather than to behave. Those who don’t behave, display their need for the Spirit of God, not a need for greater efforts to behave. Behavior is merely a symptom, the problem being lack of belief. Changing the symptom (behavior) doesn’t fix the problem (lack of belief).
At least I am not the only one hopelessly confused by the apparent contradiction in God’s word. Paul the beloved apostle, offered this sobering charge:
2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Followed immediately, IN THE SAME SENTENCE, by these words of comfort:
2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
First Paul says YOU work it out, then he says it is GOD who works it out. I won’t try to reconcile Paul’s confusion, given my own. I will simply let the reader decide. If you want to toil and sweat for an uncertain future, then that choice is yours. As for me, I’ll gratefully receive what God has chosen to freely give…in fact, I already have. And in return, I’ll offer him my heart, refusing to allow my many shortcomings to distract me from his desire to have me, keep me, use me…
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| To add a comment to "An endless contradiction, weighing heavily on me" |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Wow, I get to be one of the first ones to comment! I guess for me, I try not to think about it too much because it makes my brain hurt. I know that I cannot do enough to get to heaven, cannot have enough faith. I will never deserve heaven. But through Christ, I am able to commit my life to God, and because God sees His perfect Son when He looks at me, then I am perfect in His sight. That is all I need to know. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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"because God sees His perfect Son when He looks at me" Deb, this is my understanding too, and it requires faith in the Son. And then, through faith, I've been taught that something magical, something supernatural, occurs. The Holy Spirit is given to me, to live in me, to change me from the inside out, empowering me not only to act differently but also to WANT to act differently. (Phil. 2:13) When I see folks not behaving as a "good" child of God, I feel as though they need MORE GOD, not more effort. ....sigh..... Guess that could just be me though, misunderstanding scripture once again...... |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Great thoughts Mike. Something to chew on.
This is something I've been struggling with for many years.
One thing that I've found (and this goes along with Phil 2:13)- is that my desire to try and do good works and to try and please God by praying and reading scripture, etc...never leaves me filling fulfilled. I think that as we grow as Christians and receive an increasing level of faith that God WILL work through us and show us those things that He would have us do. But if we try and accomplish these things in our own strength or timing that we will fall miserably short. I think that by accepting Gods grace that He will work in us a desire that will match His desires for us.....I don't know. I could be wrong. Just my thoughts. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Mike the key to the whole of the bible old and new testaments is the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things are indeed Spiritually discerned. Apart from the infilling of the Holy Spirit, mankind will not adhere to the written Word. As Jesus stated in the book of John, first we must be born-again and then the Holy Spirit will bring all that He (Jesus) taught to our remembrance, so that we can obey His commands. It is not by works less anyone should boast. Even our faith is given to us. Therefore my belief is that anyone who has to work to achieve a perfect and holy lifestyle is not born-again, and has not entered into the Kingdom of Heaven, which brings forth Peace, Joy, Love, Rest, and obedience to the Written Word, that all is well with their soul. Also Jesus stated in the book of John (you have not chosen me but I have chosen you that you, and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John chapter 15/16). I like to keep it (simple stupid) like a little child LOL Check what Peter said about Paul. 11 Peter chapter 3 verses 14-18. Shalom to all my friends. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Hi Mike. You said it...but didn't complete it. <Behavior is merely a symptom, the problem being lack of belief.> What James talks about is this same aspect. Behavior is merely a symptom. If we BELIEVE, then our BEHAVIOR will change because we can not BELIEVE one thing and LIVE in contradiction. Justification is different from believing or salvation. Justification means to show, (to defend, to uphold, to declare, to give reason) for your reasoning or excuse. How do you outwardly show something that you believe if you don't act? Justification requires some type of action. In the same way, Paul talks about "working out our salvation" as a growing in spirituality. When we first become Christians, we are only babes. Becoming fully filled with the Holy Spirit where our lives are living fully in what we believe takes time. We need to grow...or work out our salvation. We are not fully in tuned with Jesus Christ when we first believe. We work on becoming more like Jesus every day, which is an action. God does work in us, whether we believe or not. He is trying to convince us to believe, but that final choice is ours. It is our decision to act. Another thing to think about is: Salvation is for everyone..."for everyone has fallen short of the glory of God"... and everyone can have eternal life... "and whosoever shall believeth shall have eternal life"... but it does come with a condition... YOU MUST BELIEVE. Belief only guarantees salvation and eternal life. But how are you to live filled with the Holy Spirit, do the work that God wills, and know that tremendous peace, joy, and love that only God can give if you only leave it at believing? Therefore, we must act on our belief. Bless you for tackling and encouraging this difficult section of the Bible. It's an area that I have spent many nights studying. Thanks. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Saved by Grace! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Oh... "but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 This scripture talks about our spirituality. As we grow in Christ, actions we once thought were normal now are childish. As we grow in Christ, we grow in our actions. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mike the way I look at it is that we both have our part. My part man's part is to act on faith and receive Him and then God does the rest. The working out of our salvation in a natural process of being born again. As we come to faith in Christ we receive the Spirit of God that enables us to live righteously. If you really want to get down to it, it is all God's part for God has given to each man a measure of faith. There is a danger in that thinking though as people think well as long as I believe in God I am good to go. I can live for myself and do my thing. The Bible clearly teaches that we are not our own we are bought with a price. How can we who are dead to sin live any longer therein? So, I will say, we come to God in faith, He saves us, He gives us the Holy Spirit, and we learn to live in obedience by faith in God. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Mike the "contraditions' are mainly a matter of audience. Paul preached to a complete set of people and his message needed to be more in accordance to his audience. His letters, many believe, were not intended to be canon but instructions to those recently converted to Christianism. Some of the letters were in fact a reaction to how those churches he established or help establish were interpreting and putting into practice his teachings. Even some of his words against certain practices such as women talking in church, is said, to be not against women, but against unnecessary noise and distractions while worshipping (you may chose to believe it or not). Yes there are discrepancies due to who these people you mention above intended audience was. Of course I may simplify the subject a bit since it is a whole scholarly discussion yet I firmly believe the key to be the Audience. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| I ditto Bro Todd........lol.....have been trying to figure out all morn how to put into words what I believe on this where it made sense....he did it so much better than I could have, lol |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mike when we are obedient and demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit it is the righteousness of God that we are demonstrating.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
That is the bottom line Mike. Remember that Jesus said don't be a hearer of the word but a doer of the same. Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God. So if we are justified by faith it is by doing the word, or living by it.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I hope this helps to clear up any doubt Mike. Anyone that is actively in sin is unrighteous and so is anyone that doesn't love his brother. So righteousness comes from God but we are justified through faith. Faith without works is dead. So this means that we demonstrate the righteousness of God through our good works. Good works alone does not make us righteous but when we are born of God his righteousness is in us through his Spirit which compels us to do the works of Christ. God bless you.
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Thank you for the input, all......... Today I offer no teaching, not that I ever tried to teach before.... I'm a listener today, weighing carefully what I read. Teach me! Todd, doesn't God give us a new heart? We can't claim we believe if we don't live to please the One who saved us, can we??? Works follows belief, right? Marcia, I believe you're on to something, the Spirit of God may indeed be the key... Caleb, somehow what looks to me like a contradiction can't really be a contradiction, if the bible really is God's word. Right? MT, thank you, truly. Just one clarification. The word "justification" or "justify" as I understand it means "to be declared innocent, to be absolved or acquitted". This state of innocence, as I understand it, is part of the gift of righteousness we receive from God....if my understanding is correct. I don't know, is that your understanding too? |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Mike yes He does. He actually does it all like I said, but we have to believe and act in faith. If we love Him we will keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome to us. Why would not we love Him?, after all He first loved us. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Paul says that he was a persecutor of Christians, but he by the Grace of God became an apostle to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. If he was not a righteous man in the sight of the Lord, how then was he chosen as a vessel to share Gospel to the Gentiles? It is by Grace. Our good works do not earn us righteousness but by the Grace of God any one who believes that Jesus shed His blood on the cross gets saved.
Once you are saved, then you have to lead a holy life and we have to be imitators of Christ in our living.
Therefore, Christian living becomes a process leading to God's Kingdom and we have to follow the commandments of Jesus.
So it is both my dear friend, we have to have faith and also we have to be living a holy life and not a hypocritical life. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Uh I forgot to add a star Mike my brother. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| I would agree Mike, that people who don't behave as a "good child of God" need more of Him, or at least to take their "religion" more seriously. I think a lot of times people think that God will forgive them, even when they do something bad, because they are saved. But the idea of being saved is making changes in your life and living a life that is acceptible to God. Can we be perfect? I don't think so, at least not in this life. But we should strive to be like Christ in all that we do. Some people don't even want to put forth the effort to do that much because they figure God will forgive them anyway. And He will, but that isn't the point...He wants us to change, not to keep doing the same things we did before we came to Him. I understand your frustration! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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My definition of justification came from a dictionary and how justifying a belief through a secular understanding. I have since looked up different definitions of justification, both secular and biblical. The only thing common is this "Justification requires some type of action." Biblically, it is said that justification is not an act from us, but an act of Jesus. A simplistic definition of justification that I have read is: "justification is when Jesus makes us 'just as if we had never sinned' ". It is by an act of Jesus that we are justified, as if we completed the act ourselves. So if we believe that Jesus "stood in" for us and completed this act of justification (which by the way was completed for ALL whether they believe or not) then we should act as if we did the justification ourselves, correct? I did find this statement that helped me to understand this contradiction between Paul and James. I hope it helps you. "Paul is explaining how a sinner is justified (pronounced righteous) by God, namely, by faith alone. James is stating how a believer who has been justified by God is justified before men, namely, by works. James is speaking of the evidence of justification." I can see it this way... If I was crossing the road and a car was about to hit me, but at the last minute someone pushed me out of the way and the car hit that person instead. Should I just go on about my business as if nothing happened? Or will my life change because now it is I that lives and not the one that saved me from being hit by the car? My life will change. And you can bet that I'd be the one to adopt that person's family and meld my life into that person's life. For he gave his to save mine. That person justified my life by his actions and now I will show the evidence of that justification by my actions. I sure hope I'm not confusing myself more than educating myself. Thanks Mike for pushing me to learn and become more. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mike, I am reminded of a song we used to sing in church that blessed me then, but really blesses me as I get older and realize my need for redemption......"Robe of Righteousness"
I'm covered over with the robe of Righteousness that Jesus gives to me, gives to me....I'm covered over with the precious blood of Jesus and He lives in me, lives in me.....What a joy it is to know my Heavenly Father loves me so and gives to me, My Jesus....When He looks at me, He sees not what I used to be...but He sees Jesus!
PTL for that Robe of Righteousness!! God bless you for this awesome blog!! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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MT, THANKS for that clarification. I'm much clearer now on where you are coming from. What you've written sounds like good news to me. You've made me glad! Deb, as you said, "Some people don't even want to put forth the effort to do that much because they figure God will forgive them anyway." This sounds to me like purely intellectual belief, much like that of the demons, rather than HEART belief, or to borrow a word from my daughter's vocabulary, TRUSTLOVE. I would be nervous for people like that... |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Kathy....more good news, THANK YOU!! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Dan..... I love you, man. And I share some of your frustration. It is refreshing when folks tell you of their successes and failures, in order to learn together, rather than asserting their particular understanding of the truth as if it were the truth itself. I'm tired of that.... (And I may even be one of those who has been doing this!!!) |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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There is Absolutely........No Contradiction Here.....Let's Say My Name is Fire Fighter Bill.....
& You saw Me run into Your Burning House & I rescue all Your Children.... We should have a sense of
not only the indebtedness to the Hero...Bill.....but also...seek & Desire to be more like Bill....
Look at the life of Mary The Prostitute.....Jesus Saved her life from Being stoned to Death....From that point on He was Master.....
To repay the Kindness that He Loved us so much First when we were so Unloveable.....is the Reasonable
service to our Wonderful, & Lovely ...MASTER.....which is to Love Each other as Self........
Every bit of the Word is all Hung....on this ...If We Love God Wholly & serve His High Purpose of
Improving the Conditions of Our Brothers.....Using all He has given us....Talents, Gifts,.....
If You Love Me......If You Love Me........If You Love Me....................You will Feed My Sheep....
To Edify....Them....Building Them Up...Completely......so that they are Mature to the level of not
becoming Deceived...........We are not saved by works.....But we Love Him so much that we MUST
with complete Passion....Be Busy about Loving Our Neighbors.....Loving Our Brothers.....Is The
Evidence.....The Proof ......that We Love Him who Loved us first.....We are Our Brothers Keeper......
Helps....is a Gift.....When You Desire to do his will & Help People in their Tough Times...You are doing it
onto the One We Worth-ship..........So ALL Works of Helping...is The Doing onto Him......
This is the Proof that We Do Love Him......& without this type of works Manifesting ...those are still deceived
& do Not Love God.....If they Still persue the lusts of the World & Self Purposed Gratifications.....
All The pursuits of happiness....The AMERICAN DREAM....etc., etc,......That IS NOT His Dream for
Us & this World. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| WOW, My head is about to explode..ouch it hurts...I'm having flashbacks hehe! I struggled with this for some time and doubted my salvation, cause no matter how hard I tried I couldn't be perfect. This is the conclusion I came to I am a sinner saved by Grace, I will sin till the day I die (Human nature) The more I learn and grow I sin less, but to say that we must be sin free here this side of eternity is impossible, just a wrong thought is sin! At the moment of salvation Christs righteousness is imparted to us, and when we do sin He intercedes for us, God dosen't see our sin He sees His sons blood! Hope that helps and dosen't confuse you more :)!!!!! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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& amen to Dan....Let us all Try Not to Be Clanging cymbles....I am Thinking of the GONG Show Now...LOL....
Love Your Blogs Brother !!!
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Some good points but I kind of take it to mean that we have to believe that Adonai's ways are Higher than our own. I.E. that if we get clean from drugs that we'll ultimately be better off. In other word trust God instead of doing what looks like it might "feel good now" I think is has to do with trusting the leading of the spirit. Which is reinforced by the Torah. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Dan.....that is sweet to hear. Thank you for the feedback! Michael, "We are not saved by works.....But we Love Him so much that we MUST with complete Passion....Be Busy about Loving Our Neighbors.." That's what excites me.....his gifts, his Spirit, fill us with passionate joy. But even when joy wanes the Spirit persists, changing us from inside out. Seems your understanding is similar to mine, bro. Appreciate hearing from ya. Angela....let's just say, I can identify. Thanks! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Thank you Jesus for your precious blood that you shed on Calvary! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| RSD, I for one appreciate the simple approach!! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Sooooooooo, we're not teaching today, puhlease.... You can't help it and I thank you for your food for thought.....
When we believe, we are accepted, in fact, embraced, by the living God, as his children. He CALLS us to believe, then GIVES us the power to behave. Those who don’t behave, lack belief (faith).
It is not by our works, but by the Holy Spirit(gives us power) works with-in us. We are HIS children(called) therefore we hear and obey and when we don't we are chastaise for our disobediance and encouraged to do His will... Why wouldn't we when we know that He knows what is good for us(regardless of what we think) and it will all work out for the good in the end.
We have these tiny little brains with an ounce of grey matter that thinks it knows all. He has promised to never leave us and with the Holy Spirit guiding us, how can we go wrong?
I am never and will never be perfect, but with the Holy Spirit I will by the grace of my Father get as near to perfection as I can possibly can, ALL BECAUSE OF HIS GRACE. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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And because I am His I want to do his will.... A lot of peole will question some things that you do (so what).. If my Father directs me to go across the street and help that homeless person, or give that funny looking lady a lift. I WILL DO IT.... The works are not mine, they are HIS. It is a big contradiction, Mike but when you are doing the work of the Father, it is not a contradiction at all.
Got a little carried away, didn't I (LOL) |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Ask..and it shall be given....Seek and you shall find...Knock and the door shall be opened...JESUS is standing at the door waiting......If any of you lacks WISDOM, let him ask of GOD, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it WILL BE given to him. Selah |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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go get some ice cream!! LOL!!
Okay, I too agree with many comments on here, we are simply under grace....even being 'prfect' is a striving marker...not a completion...we will never be perfect until Christ returns! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Wow Mike.... this is great! I especially love when you said..."To get someone to behave, to me it makes more sense to urge them to believe rather than to behave... "
There are many times I am behaving just right... at least enough to fool the average person.... but inside i know Im not and on the other side.... when Im obviously not doing what I should and Im beating myself up over my ACTIONS or my FAILINGS instead of my lack of faith, or beleif, or trust in God at that moment... Gosh I'm not even putting it in the right words to even really explain what I mean.... but know this Mike... your blog is a revelation to me. Thank you brother. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me I once was lost but now I'm found was blind but now I SEE. The seeing part is what we should concentrate on, if we see what Jesus would have done and put that into action, we will not go far wrong! We will never be perfect but we can aim to be! Amen, love Stu! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mary, you are such an encouragement, and so full of wisdom (from experience, and a lifetime of walking with the Savior). puhlease? LOL!! Cher - "we will never be perfect until Christ returns!" You often have just the right words! Amen Margie... Robin, glad we're on the same wavelength here! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| LOL Mike. You not gonna make me go on the subject of Inerrancy. To do that here would be literary suicide, I will leave that one to the scholars. :)) |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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The paradox is even more striking when you compare Romans 4:5 with James 2:24: 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. The reason why the conflict comes into play is because we have not yet answered the important contextual question: We are justified with respect to whom? Paul's message concerns people being made justified before God. And the only prerequisite here is one's faith in Jesus Christ. James discusses justification before man whereby we can guage whether our faith is legitimate or merely "lip service." To underscore this, James is also quick to emphasize that one's justification before God is via faith alone: 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. But on the heels of his argument in verses 19-24 (see below), he means to communicate that one cannot merely have a said faith but an authentic faith that will inevitably produce good works. Follow his argument: 2:19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.... [Therefore,] a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James isn't saying that one's works save you per se but rather that if you do not do the works of God then you must not have taken that step of faith seriously. And merely assenting to belief in God is not sufficient to warrant justification - as one's works will demonstrate. One isn't made a dog because it can bark, but rather its producing barks insures that what made the dog a dog has certainly been authentic. I hope this helps!
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| We Live & Serve a Risen Savior & have Good Works Be-Cause.......Jesus Has a Cause...His Cause is First & foremost above All else.....The Cause, The Mission, The CO-OP the Operational Managements...of His Fathers Business is Fixing, Healing the Brokenness in this World all around Us......So if We do not Perform Good Works Our Faith is Dead....We must Lean on & Cling on Him seeking to know is Perfect will in all matters & Behave according to that will & perfectly or if We do not We testify Poorly & do Not Represent Him accurately.....To Win in Court....The Gathering of Evidence.....From Reliable Testimony....First Hand Witness'.....They were There & They saw what took Place......rather than a 2nd hand witness that heard of what happened...A witness that merely heard about what took place.....is Hear Say ..They only Heard a Story ..without the First Hand Experience of What took Place....it would Be like the Story of Doubting Thomas...He Said I will not Believe unless I Touch his Master.....Until the Point of the Lord Appearing to Him He was only, .a 2nd Hand Witness.....But After He saw the Risen Lord did He become a Reliable 1st Hand Witness.....His Testimony Became by far Stronger....due to that Close Encounter With Jesus.....So ((( Hear Say )))...where We Get the Term....Heresy....Heretic.....Thomas would have remained a Heretic...unless Jesus,,..Appeared to Him............So In Your ...[ The Readers ] ...Experience....A True...1st Hand & Close & Personal,...Relationship ....Your witness of Jesus & Him Raised.....In order to have a Effective Testimony....it..can not be Effective if it is only Hear Say.When We Knock & Seek To See a Very Real, True Risen Savior....He Reveals Himself to Us in That Close...Encounter...Which Transforms Us into a First Hand & Much More Reliable Witness....Transforms...& does not Just Merely Inform Us of How We have Heard of Jesus & Him Raising From The Dead...because Many Know of the Story Yet They do not Believe !!!!....Like Saul Knew The Story of Jesus& of Him Raised....& He Did not Believe in the Story.....It was Way Too Far Out There of a Story Until ..Jesus..Appeared & asked Why do You Kick Me Saul ....Do You not know it is hard to Kick God....& You all Know the rest of the Story......I pray that We all should come to a Place of The Crying out to God..that He should Appear to Us ...that We can be as those That Saw Him after His Death.....Blessed be Those that Believe that have not Seen...but Put their Faith & Trust in This Truth.I am Perfect Be-Cause I am in the Perfect Place.....In the Bosom of My Dear Jesus & His Loving Arms wrapped around Me....Who could Harm Me There? Wrapped in His Perfection. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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I re-read the blog and took special look at the last quotes and paragraph. I most say I do not find the same confusion you found.
2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Followed immediately, IN THE SAME SENTENCE, by these words of comfort:
2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
First Paul says YOU work it out, then he says it is GOD who works it out. I won’t try to reconcile Paul’s confusion, given my own. I will simply let the reader decide. If you want to toil and sweat for an uncertain future, then that choice is yours. As for me, I’ll gratefully receive what God has chosen to freely give…in fact, I already have. And in return, I’ll offer him my heart, refusing to allow my many shortcomings to distract me from his desire to have me, keep me, use me…
Seems congruent to me. It simply says, continue your search (work out) for the things that pleases God for is God inside you helping you (works in you) to act according to His will and purpose for you. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Stu, I too cling to that grace....which oddly enough, means favor w/o respect to merit, or performance. Shandon, your input is indeed helpful, 1,000 thank you's! Caleb....on the surface, Phil. 2:13 & 14 appear to contradict...but I would at least agree that they don't, couldn't possibly in fact, if we knew Paul's true thought process. Your interpretation is at least as good as anything I would suggest, I think. :-) Linda, thanks for your words on the source of our faith. Thank God it is not blind faith!!! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| I Love that S L Guthrie...Points out Paradox rather than Contradiction.......We Must Wrestle with The Paradox's .....Contained in the Bible Be-Cause....There is where We Discover The True Hidden Wisdom...Paradox's Balance & Bring about Our Understandings [Holy].... If Things in the Word appear as Contradiction...We are still not Understanding The Full & Whole Meaning. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Yes,... Well Said ......S L Guthrie.....Give Him The Microphone for awhile....LOL.....He is GOOD !!
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Oh Yes ....MIKE....as always....Great Topic.....Great discussion...& Excellent comments. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Just as we try and teach and guide our children, the Lord does the same with us. Both we and the Lord give our kids the knowledge and train in them the ability to do this and that, and likewise both we and the Lord love and cherish our kids as our kids when they fall flat on their face (or worse, throw a tantrum and run off to their rooms). Imperfect execution on the part of "the children" in no way diminishes the relationship to the parent; it just provides a temporary point of "upwards" frustration -- from our kids towards us, and from us towards God -- even though such frustration would be better pointed towards ourselves (or not at all) than at God. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mike,
I must admit I didn't read all the comments.....sometimes I find people try to get "too spiritual" or "theological" with answers. I look at this faith and works things simply. Of course you know I have three little girls (who are the apple of my eye!)...anyway I try to think this way "How would I explain this to them?". If I am successful in satisfying them then I did good. (ever try to answer a 6 yr old?) So this is how I would explain faith and works to them.
Faith is like your socks and Work like your shoes. Faith goes first and many times you can't see but you know it's there. Works are your shoes--they do the work and get dirty. Everyone sees your shoes and assumes you have socks on. If you just put on your socks and not shoes you would not be completely dressed and on wet or cold days not very comfortable. Faith and Works go together like socks and shoes!
Simple but it works for me! Hopefully not too simplistic. Thanks for the opportunity to share.
~Robin--Mom of 3 Princesses |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| This is a Great Blog....Blogs should be all about participation...Loved Your comment jesusrestores. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Mike,
I think this is one of those passages that shows our problem of having a "western" mindset. Why can't it be both? We are righteous in Him, we live out that promise by being righteous. It's like several other passages, we are saved by grace, but we run the race, for example. Our western thought process is one where we set goals, we have a series of step we take, but scripture also talks about God filling, indwelling us, but calls on us to act. We want to follow a process to get from here to there, but God calls us to abide. The western practice of achievement ends up being negated, instead we "are" in Him. Mind you, knowing this intellectually almost makes it harder to understand in the heart. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| Oh yea, star added big time, I really need to remember this. |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Remember when your children were learning to walk? Before that ever happened they learned to crawl, to sit, to stand. Took a long time for them to master these "simple" things. Thru the process you were ever present. An occasional helping hand, picking up and holding when they fell and cried, encouraging them to come to you.
As the children were "working out" the how to you were "working in" the desire to. The attention, the affirmation, the joy on your face as your child took those first few steps. Holding their small hand and walking with them. Good parents do not force flawless execution or expect quick mastery of the skill to walk. Good parents patiently, lovingly, proudly help their child learn to do what they need to do. Good parents do not expect perfection in the beginning and know that even after they learn to walk there will be occasional slips and falls.
Mike, the righteousness of GOD is received not achieved. It is accepting the grace of GOD into my life. The grace of GOD can and will do in me what I never could do by my works or efforts. Grace is the parent who helps their child to walk.
Mike, remember holding your firstborn child for the very first time? Was the child perfect? I mean, did the newborn know how to walk and talk, was potty trained, and never cried?
In the eyes of a loving parent, perfection is not what your child does but who they are.
In the eyes of a loving parent, perfection is being needy.
In the eyes of a loving parent, relationship is more important than flawlessness.
In the same way, Mike, when we are born again, GOD sees us, not as we are (were), but as we are becoming. It will take time to learn to talk the talk and walk the walk. We will make messes. We will stumble and fall along the way. GOD patiently, lovingly, proudly works in to us what we need to work out this little thing called christianity.
No, we won't always get it right. We may throw temper tantrums (holy indignation), act spoiled (I want what I want) or refuse to go (where He leads). Others will quickly point out our faults. And what they don't we do. But in the heart of our heavenly Father, who sees with eyes of pure love thru the "imperfections", we are perfect.
But I don't feel perfect. Well, do I trust my feelings or GOD's grace?
I am far from perfect. There is sin in my life. Being perfect is being perfectly honest with GOD.
32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Sin separates. Grace restores.
I've tried to be perfect but fall short. All have sinned and fall short. Grace is the distance between my works and GOD's will.
All being perfect means is to be complete. I will never be complete as long as I hold on to those few remnants of the old life. An attitude, unforgiveness (of another or myself), a failure, whatever. Being perfect means I have empty hands.
Thanks Mike for this "us blog". Where we have had the opportunity to share our thoughts. Who knows how many seeds have been planted here.
.....peace.....
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Excellent comments, I am so impressed with all the input here!! Another thanks to Shandon (SL Guthrie), great post from a learned man. Don't ever tell me book learnin' is foolishness. I always love to read a person who is educated AND led by the Spirit! No time to respond to all, just believe me when I say every single comment has amazed me! Y'all edified me, hope you were as well! Robin, again... the socks and shoes, too cool sister! Dennis, why can't it be both? On some level, I agree it should. I find it interesting that Christians gravitate one way or the other, based on genetic make up? or how their parents raised them? or how much time they spend listening to talk radio? I don't know, it's just interesting how far apart we brothers and sisters can be on something like this, how we latch onto one verse or the other, that APPEAR to say opposite things, and base our entire personal theology on that bent. I liked your thoughts Dennis, it is good to hear from you bro! Carrie Ann, thx for jumpin in, you had good things to say! Gordon, thanks brother. I'm glad to sit back and listen. ;-) |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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Robin - I love your shoes and socks story. I would love to share that with some Sunday School teachers, if you don't mind. apureheart - I always said that God is like a loving parent. You really hit home with your description. Thank you for your posting that really explains how God guides, directs, and nurtures...all with patience and love! |
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| September 30, 2008 |
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| | | Michael |  | September 30, 2008 at 10:30pm | | |
In the eyes of a loving parent, perfection is not what your child ..does........................ but who they are!!!....... In the eyes of a loving parent,.... perfection is being needy.....In the eyes of a loving parent, ..relationship is more important than flawlessness.....In the same way,, when we are born again, GOD sees us, not as we areor (were),.. but as we are becoming. ...It will take time to learn to talk the talk and walk the walk. We will make messes. We will stumble and fall along the way. GOD patiently, lovingly, proudly works in to us what we need to work out this little thing called christianity. No, we won't always get it right. We may throw temper tantrums (holy indignation), act spoiled (I want what I want) or refuse to go (where He leads). Others will quickly point out our faults. And what they don't we do. But in the heart of our heavenly Father, who sees with eyes of pure love thru the "imperfections", .....we are perfect......But...... I don't feel perfect. ...Well, do I trust my feelings or GOD's grace?......I am far from perfect. There is sin in my life. Being perfect is being perfectly honest with GOD.......... -----------------------------------. I love the Comments on here......Thank You .....apureheart for this.....We are Perfect in Our Fathers Eyes Already because He Sees the Future...the finished result ...the End Product of His Workings In Us.......Be-Cause He is Not a Failure.......He said it is Finished...And the work He Started in us.....He...Will Surely Perfectly Finish, Complete it in Us !! |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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| You all have such good comments...I'm going back to read. |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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| i always though that through our efforts God would make us righteous. |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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I came back to read some of the comments..... Micheal love the parent/child view. So true...we love our children for who they are not what they do!!!! also what they do reflects who they are. Enjoyed reading.
MT4God please feel free to share. |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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Great Blog Mike, excellent comments from all.
In my perspective Mike, It boils down to the "Have to", or "Get to" of anyone's walk with Religion, or God .
If in anywise you feel, and have a attitude that you must, or have to do, something to become righteous, it is not of God, clouded with condemnation and under the works of the law, a product of religion.
If you, by faith, look to God who is working in you to become like Jesus, your whole attitude changes and it is a "get to do it" instead of a have to. You get to put away the works of the flesh, you get to walk in The Spirit, you get to be the righteousness of Christ, you get to be more and more like Jesus by just moving with the leading of The Holy Spirit and The Word of God, I guess that's the only "have to" is to remain in the vine, but still that is a wonderful "Get To" with the right attitude.
As you wrote above, ( and I added a bit) ....the better we are taught, the better we believe, the better we behave and the more we realise we "get to" be like Jesus at salvation through justification, and through maturity with sanctification we "get to" walk it out to the world with our works !
Thanks for the food for thought you started brother! |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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Thanks Tom! Hey, that "have to/get to" approach is an interesting one! Joe King... we are called to put forth effort, but not to become righteous before God. Jesus' righteousness is applied to us. But what is often called into question is, just what role do our efforts towards living righteously play before God (or men)? |
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| October 01, 2008 |
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| As I understand it you will find that faith without works is dead. So you see God wants us to work by going out and tell the world that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of Lords |
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| October 02, 2008 |
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The more I love Him, the more I want to do for Him and for others. I will never be perfect, but I want to be like Jesus, and that... I can do. I can try my very best. |
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| October 02, 2008 |
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Joey....that's me too! So I don't worry at all about my own salvation, I am assured! It's a non-issue!! My fruit speaks for itself. But I know people, friends and family, who have no fruit, or bad fruit. I imagine we all know ppl like that. Should we focus on their works, their lack of good fruit, when expressing our concern for them, or should we emphasize the beauty of the pure Gospel, and how much joy it brings us to be free of the need to perform (and yet we perform all the more!! LOL)... It's good to know how salvation works, at least the basic gist of it. I'm convinced that a solid understanding of the Good News fosters an amazing appreciation for the Good News. Why else would we call it good news?!!? |
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| October 02, 2008 |
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The easiest way for me to express how I view our mission is this: "Be fishermen of men". For me, that is being a walking, talking, smiling woman of Jesus Christ. People wonder what it is that you have... and then you tell them. It's so easy. For me, anyway. |
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| October 02, 2008 |
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But always with gentleness and respect..... That's my motto! Similar to yours Joey! |
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| October 02, 2008 |
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It's wonderful, Mike, you alleycat! |
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| October 03, 2008 |
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This past summer my eight year old son learned to swim. He went from "fear and trembling" to joy. His teaching began years ago as pools and lakes were places to enjoy and pa was always near. His first effort to swim began with me just far enough from the side of the pool so he could push out to me. Then I took a step back and he pushed off and did a single stroke to me. In less than a month he was able to do easily what a year earlier was way too scary to even attempt. As his confidence grew his fear shrunk.
My part in the process was to help him do what he had the ability to do. That included help overcoming fear, gaining confidence, and developing the desire to swim. I worked in to him what he needed to work out the how to.
So it is with christians.
The Father works in us what we need so that we can work out the how to of salvation. As we learn we go from "fear and trembling" to joy. What once was unattainable is now easy. As we work out our spiritual man our endurance grows and strength increases. It is easy to get satisfied with where we are but our heavenly Father knows we need new challenges and graciously provides.
Lucas (eight year old son) can swim but will not, absolutely refuses, to put his head underwater. He is still afraid. His five year old brother (Logan) learned to swim underwater this summer. So I have one above water and one underwater. Both have overcome "fear and trembling" to do what they once could not. They are happy with their accomplishments and so am I. But next summer their pa will "graciously provide new challenges". I am confident in what my little ones can do. The heavenly Father is confident in what His little ones can do, too.
.....peace.....
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| October 03, 2008 |
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| I don't know that this answers your question... but it may make you rest easier about your struggle.
That word you use "believe" is not a fair translation for us today. Besides struggling with "thee's" and "thow knowest not's" in the King James Version... this word rendered believe also bothers me. The original word used actually means to "trust in and rely upon". I say it bothers me because many people believe there is a God... but do NOT trust in Him, nor will they rely upon Him. Now I said all that to say this:
If you do trust in and rely upon Christ as your Lord and Savior... and you sound like you do, then I want to remind you that the bible says that you are clothed in "His righteousness". What that means to us is that while Christ is working out our issues... our bad habbits... "our unrighteousness"... whenever God looks at you, He sees His Son (Christ)... not you or me. That my friend is AWESOME. Luv ya and keep searching the truth.
t |
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| October 03, 2008 |
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| Oops... I did not see all the other comments before I wrote you. Im new here... |
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| October 04, 2008 |
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| Preston, welcome to MyChurch, and THANKS for taking the time to comment! I agree w/your analysis of the word "believe". I tell my kids that all the time. |
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| October 05, 2008 |
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1:6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. We're certainly accountable although I'm not sure what role we play apart from a willing heart to be clay in the Potter's hand. He is the one, even, who gives us a true heart for him ... (Ezekial 36:26).
Hmmm ... great discussion. I'll place my confidence in Him that he'll take care of it :-). |
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| October 05, 2008 |
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| Russ, thanks. Your comment is one of those that inspires a greater love for my Redeemer! |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Mike,
The Greek word for "righteousness" and "justification" are based on the same root word. Righteousness in Greek is dikaios. Justification is dikaiosis.
Paul taught that which was taught by "The Prophets": "The just [righteous] shall live by faith" (Hab. 2:4).
2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. And again... 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. But Paul was not talking about believing in God (per se). Faith in God is pretty useless (see James 2:19 - ... the devils believe...). Paul was talking about believing what God promised.
According to Paul, we are justified (made righteous) the same way Abraham was. It's an imputed state. Imputed by whom? Imputed by God. God imputed righteousness to Abraham when?
And this is where Paul and James part company. Paul (knowing the scriptures) pin-points the exact moment when Abraham was declared righteous as Genesis 15:6: 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Paul quotes this verse as follows: 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
God did not impute righteousness to Abraham because Abraham believed in Him. God imputed righteousness because Abraham believed what God promised to him (that is, a baby boy).
James, on the other hand, did not seem to understand this relationship. Paul was preaching "faith righteousness" and James heard "belief in monotheism (one God)". This is not mere conjecture. Read James chapter 2. James is arguing against a theology NO ONE had ever put forth (that we have any record of). James characterized the doctrine of "faith righteousness" is mere belief in God. 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Obviously, the theology of "faith righteousness" is far more challenging than paying lip-service to the existence of God. In fact, when you get your head around "faith righteousness" you begin to understand that we are responsible for carrying on the work of the gospel (making disciples, baptizing, teaching, healing the sick, driving out demons, raising the dead, etc.). If we want to be righteous in God's sight, we will believe His promises. Therefore, open the bible, latch onto one, two, or as many promises as you want and begin to believe God for them. It will change your life.
You have well said,
He calls us to believe, then gives us the power to behave. Those who don’t behave, lack belief (faith). To get someone to behave, to me it makes more sense to urge them to believe rather than to behave. Those who don’t behave, display their need for the Spirit of God, not a need for greater efforts to behave. Behavior is merely a symptom, the problem being lack of belief. Changing the symptom (behavior) doesn’t fix the problem (lack of belief).
That is absolutely beautiful and I could not have said it better.
Rob |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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But Changing The of One's Belief ...Changes the Behavior.....
So Believing... correctly.... in Truths.....The Correct Behavior Follows....
This is the Fruit of the Spirit of True Beliefs......Manifesting.......
The Testimony...The True Witness.....The Proof...The Evidence. |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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| This is the Paradox |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Mike,
One other thing: Jesus told us to "teach all nations". Teaching, therefore, is probably a good thing to do, wouldn't you agree?
You have said on numerous occasions that you don't "presume to teach". In light of the Great Commission however, would you recommend that we teach or not? Furthermore, how would you feel about a person who told you to disobey a clear commandment of Jesus? (You know where I'm going with this...)
Rob |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Rob, I appreciate your taking the time to comment. At first I was a little confused by your wording (i.e. "Faith in God is pretty useless"), but by the time I finished reading what you wrote, my confusion had cleared. Yes the demons believe, but there "belief" is more an acknowledgement of objective truth rather than a personal trust. You made that point with this statement: "God imputed righteousness because Abraham believed what God promised to him (that is, a baby boy)." I find it downright enjoyable to agree w/my brothers and sisters on the essentials of our faith! Regarding the perceived conflict between Paul's theology and James', I know in my heart that there really is no conflict when we fully understand what the two men were trying to get across, and to whom. I think SL Guthrie's comment addressed the apparent conflict well. |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Good clarifications, Michael! Rob, I'm thinking about what you last wrote.... :-) |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Rob, you are referring to this command of Jesus', no doubt: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." In order to clear up previous statements I've made about teaching.... Once my kids were old enough, I "taught" them how to ride their bikes. I also "taught" them some basic swimming skills. I've "taught" them many other basic life skills too, b/c I am someone they look up to as having experience in these areas, having been there, done that. In this passage of scripture, I am confident that Jesus is not pronouncing every Christian person a gifted "teacher", who should regard the entire world as their classroom full of students. Rather, I see Jesus as saying in effect, "You guys have firsthand experience with my ministry. Share what you know with as many people as possible." I'm also confident that their obedience to this command is at least partially to be credited for the rapid growth of Christianity in the years following Christ's death. |
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| October 06, 2008 |
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Amen, brother. Thank God for teachers of the gospel!
SL Guthrie is taking a bit of liberty with the text, I think. James is talking about our having the same justification Abraham had. Abraham wasn't worried whether anybody saw any evidence of his faith. Since when has righteousness been about putting on a show of faith? Abraham's justification was imputed to him by God not because he showed how much faith he had but because he believed God's promise. Period! End of discussion!
We are not justified in the eyes of men but only in the eyes of God. Look... If I were to tell you that I am justified by God because of my works and not by faith only; what would you think of me? I'll tell you what you'd think of me - that I'm a self-righteous hypocrite. Nobody, in today's church, would last a second if he espoused a theology of righteousness by works. Like it or not, we are all Lutherans at heart :-) Hahaha
We all know that our own righteousness is as filthy rags. We all know that we need justification imputed to us by God. None of us really believes that "we are justified by what we do" but because James the Just said it, we're left to pick up the pieces. We're left to reconcile the irreconcilable.
The apostle John said, "Test the spirits to see if they are of God" (1 John 4:1). Obviously, the statement "I am justified by what I do" is NOT of God - I don't care who says it!
The apostle Paul said: 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. According to Paul, even if "we" (I assume he's talking about himself and/or his fellow apostles) should preach another gospel then let that one be accursed.
Read James' epistle. James did not even have his chronology correct. Look at what he says: 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The answer to that rhetorical question is a resounding NO! Abraham was declared righteous by God in Genesis 15 - YEARS BEFORE HIS SON, ISAAC, WAS EVEN BORN. Abraham didn't offer Isaac on the altar until Genesis 22. The basis for James theology is flawed, unfactual, fabricated, made up! But that's not surprising. Look at what else James wrote in his epistle: 4:5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? I dare you (or anyone else). Find the book from which James pulled that "scripture" reference. If you do, you're a better man than I. In fact, you'd be a better man than everyone else who searched in every ancient writing to find that particular reference. It's not there. He, evidently, made it up.
Jesus said to the Sadducees: 22:29 ... Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. If we don't know the scriptures we are in danger of error.
Having said all that, James' primary point is well taken - "Faith without works is dead". James goes off into error when he redefines "justification" to mean something we earn from God. James' whole discussion regarding justification could have been eliminated and the point would still have been valid. Faith that doesn't make a difference is pretty useless - like mere faith in the existence of God.
In fact, mere "faith" in the existence of God is not really bible faith at all. 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. If all you do is believe that God exists, give yourself a cupie-doll. God doesn't care about such "faith". But if you believe that He is a rewarder, then God wants to do business with you. Coming to God to show Him how righteous you are is offensive. Coming to God with your needs, wants, and desires gives Him something to work with. God is ready to make a deal. He wants us to make our requests known to Him. Why? So that He can give us the desires of our hearts. He wants to be our source, not our audience.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob |
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| October 10, 2008 |
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Rob, I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts, I really do. However I would suggest that it isn't SL Guthrie taking liberties with the text, but you, when you say things like "James did not even have his chronology correct." I'm sure brother James had a far better grasp of OT events/chronology than you are giving him credit for. You said, "James goes off into error"? This is a serious charge, and turns out to be baseless when we successfully put James' statements into their proper context. (I am no bible scholar, but there are plenty who have done just this.) If James really believed that righteousness were something to be earned from God, he certainly would not have said "We all stumble in many ways". This is clearly the recognition that the salvation and rewards we receive from God are by grace alone! I am confident that where we see contradictions in the biblical text, we need to study further in order to compensate for OUR lack of understanding, rather than assume the bible authors were somehow in error. You also stated, "We all know that our own righteousness is as filthy rags." I wish that I could agree w/this, but to me it seems we like to say that our own righteousness is as filthy rags, however deep down so many of us try to justify ourselves by what we DO, and then we demand that others follow suit!! (Look at the comments in some of my blogs, I really do a great job of teasing out the legalists and works righteousness folks!) |
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| October 12, 2008 |
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Mike,
Let's just use the evidence we have before us.
Chronology: Using the typical book/chapter/verse convention, when did God impute righteousness to Abram?
When did Abraham attempt to offer his son, Isaac, on the altar (book and chapter)?
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| October 13, 2008 |
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Hi Rob, There is no doubt that most Protestant Christians (and perhaps everyone in this discussion arena) affirm sola fide, sola gratia. But Luther's conviction that we ought to take scissors to the Book of James is perhaps why I'm not a Lutheran at heart. Thus the conclusion, "[w]e're left to reconcile the irreconcilable", I believe is false and unnecessary. Moreover, we've yet to see any good reason to think that the scholarly explanation I've represented is taking "liberty" with the text (which, I presume, is simply a way of disagreeing with the reasoning I afforded). That "faith" in James and Paul require a frame of reference is not in violation of any hermeneutic and neither is this solution desperate. I find it to be the natural reading of James who, I believe, is making the distinction between faith and mere belief. He goes to greath lengths to explain himself in this way in Chapter 2. And he affirms Abraham's justification apart from works that would make any Reformer feel warm and fuzzy: 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. So James isn't at odds with Pauline soteriology. What you have to understand is that faith is an action word - it implies (or, rather, entails) that one act on that faith. This would be to reduce true faith to mere belief. The author of Hebrews explains this in Chapter 11 with the constant use of "By faith ..." in explaining the deeds of the Patriarchs and prophets. For example, the author here also mentions Abraham in the list: 11:17 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten `son'; 11:18 even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: 11:19 accounting that God `is' able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back. Though Abraham didn't know how God was going to keep His promise to provide salvation through Isaac's offspring if he was to kill him, he certainly trusted that God would somehow keep that promise nonetheless. True faith is faith that entails works - that is, obeying God and trusting in Him and not merely possessing an empty mental belief as the demons do (cf. James 2:19). As the foremost specialist on the general epistles in Austria Professor Peter H. Davids explains: "For James the ideal is faith working with and being completed by one's deed (Jas 2:22), for as a result of this a person will be declared (proved) righteous (Jas 2:21, 24). James asserts that a mere confession of faith is not enough; true commitment to God shows in one's deeds" (Dictionary of the Later New Testament, R. Martin and P. Davids, eds. (Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1997, p. 368)). |
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| October 13, 2008 |
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SL,
What one believes about righteousness is what's at issue here. No serious disciple of Christ thinks that paying mere lip-service to the existence of a deity is of any value whatever. Faith without works is not faith. So let's dispense with that part of the discussion, okay?
We know that Paul and James locked horns on the subject of righteousness 2000 years ago (see Galatians 2 and Acts 15). Paul was aware of James' theology and James was aware of Paul's theology. Paul pooh-poohed dietary restrictions (which was a Jamesian requirement (see Acts 15)). James had practicing Pharisees in the highest levels of church government in Jerusalem. James was the biggest Judaizer on the horizon (see Galatians 2).
Most of Paul's writings were dedicated to short-circuiting and debunking the Judaizers (of which James was chief), with their circumcision, and their Sabbath keeping, they had a ceremonial approach to godliness. The first century church was not the unified, homogeneous, happy little world that we want to believe it was. There were competing theologies. Most of them were wrong. One of them was right.
Unfortunately, James used a keyword. What he wrote was not bad except he used a "reserved word". That word is "justified". "Justified" has already been defined as something God imputes to us apart from works. 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. This is a direct assault against Jamesian theology which says: 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The answer is obviously an unqualified, "No!".
SL, you know the scriptures. You would never say, "I am justified by my works", would you? Of course not. You know better than that. You don't have a political ax to grind. Your theology is not competing with Paul's or James'. Heck, from the looks of things, you're doing everything humanly possible to make these competing theologies agree. 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. There is nothing wrong with and everything right with the above statement. How can I say that? Because it does not violate anything else in the word of God. It is true that God's faith in Abraham payed off. God understood that if Abraham believed His promise then his life would reflect that belief. This is the whole "faith without works is dead" theology which everyone agrees with. So no more James 2:23, okay?
But Paul would disagree that Abraham was justified by his works. I believe that is why Paul wrote what he wrote in the letter to the Romans. Paul knew James' theology and he didn't agree with it because it was wrong. It was wrong because it doesn't stand up to scrutiny - which is all I'm asking that we do here. This is the $64 question:
Was Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar or before?
We can bury our heads in the sand and ignore this question or we can answer it honestly. The honest answer leaves us with an even bigger mess. But this is the 600-pound gorilla in every Christian's living room. Thank God (and Mike), we have a forum to talk about it.
Rob |
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| October 13, 2008 |
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Rob, Shandon has continued to address the apparent contradiction to my satisfaction. There is no contradiction between the book of James and Paul's letters, though on the surface (w/o careful study) it appears they disagree. It pleases me greatly that we are in complete agreement concerning justification by faith. However, anyone who can brazenly state that any biblical author "goes off into error" by what they've written in the canon of scripture has somewhat crippled their own credibility, in my mind. Study further, my friend, to understand what James is really saying. From Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown's commentary, which explains it far better than I could:
show me thy faith without thy works--if thou canst; but thou canst not SHOW, that is, manifest or evidence thy alleged ( Jam 2:14 , "say") faith without works. "Show" does not mean here to prove to me, but exhibit to me. Faith is unseen save by God. To show faith to man, works in some form or other are needed: we are justified judicially by God ( Rom 8:33 ); meritoriously, by Christ ( Isa 53:11 ); mediately, by faith ( Rom 5:1 ); evidentially, by works. The question here is not as to the ground on which believers are justified, but about the demonstration of their faith: so in the case of Abraham. In Gen 22:1 it is written, God did tempt Abraham, that is, put to the test of demonstration the reality of his faith, not for the satisfaction of God, who already knew it well, but to demonstrate it before men. The offering of Isaac at that time, quoted here, Jam 2:21 , formed no part of the ground of his justification, for he was justified previously on his simply believing in the promise of spiritual heirs, that is, believers, numerous as the stars. He was then justified: that justification was showed or manifested by his offering Isaac forty years after. That work of faith demonstrated, but did not contribute to his justification. The tree shows its life by its fruits, but it was alive before either fruits or even leaves appeared.
21. Abraham . . . justified by works--evidentially, and before men (see on JF & B for Jas 2:18). In Jam 2:23 , James, like Paul, recognizes the Scripture truth, that it was his faith that was counted to Abraham for righteousness in his justification before God.
Jamieson, Robert; A.R. Fausset; and David Brown. "The General Epistle of James." Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Blue Letter Bible. 19 Feb 2000. 13 Oct 2008.
<http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Jam/Jam002.html>.
In the commentary is the answer to your question. |
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| October 13, 2008 |
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Mike,
It's one thing to say that I have faith. It's another thing to invite the Holy Spirit to fill me and to act and to speak through me. When we allow that to happen, we experience God at a deeper level so it strengthens our relationship with Him. The more we allow Him to work through us, the tighter the bond grows between us.
The most devastating words we could ever hear are, "Depart from me. I never knew you."
It's all about the quality of the relationship we have with Him. Giving up control of our lives to him is what it means to die to self...doing what He wants instead of doing what we want.
That, I believe, is the basis for James 2:24.
Gene |
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| October 14, 2008 |
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| 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:21 KJV
YES... He was... and it doesn't conflict with scripture. Doing anything God asks you to do Justifies us. NOT by the Doing of "it"... but because in doing whatever it was we were asked to do... we TRUSTED IN AND RELIED UPON GOD.
That is what make these verses work in harmony. They do not contradict but are two approaches to the same truth. But this question has been resolved in so many different books and so many years ago. What do you think about issues like these in light of Mat 22:34-40 and I Cor 13:1-3? |
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| October 14, 2008 |
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| Preston, thanks for your post, you've answered the "contradiction" somewhat differently than the gentlemen above, yet in complete harmony with their posts. Excellent!! |
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| October 14, 2008 |
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Mike,
In fact, the commentary is not the answer to my question, the bible is - ...my question being the following:
Was Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar or before?
Genesis 15:6 says that Abram believed God's promise of a son to him and because of that persuasion, God counted him righteous (i.e. justified). I will freely admit, I never understood the significance of that point until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit (or at least until I was in my late forties).
Anybody who has been saved from their sin understands that God imputes His righteousness to those who believe in His promise. When I turned my life over to God (I believe my exact words were, "Jesus, you have to drive, I can't do it anymore...") when I turned my life over to God, I was anything but holy. In fact, I was a complete wreck.
My first wife was going to divorce me because I pleaded guilty to gross sexual imposition on a minor, I was still drinking nearly every day; in fact, my buddy and I went to a strip club during that time (I wasn't on probation yet). I wasn't reading the bible yet but I knew God had to save me from myself. I knew that He was the only One who could "save a wretch like me".
Was I justified yet or did I have to do something else in order to be justified by God?
I maintain (and I believe the bible supports this) that I was justified when I believed that He was the one who could save me. I was trusting His power to fix my life. And He did, bless God!
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Not justified by my faith or my works but justified by His blood. God has justified every creature on planet earth by the blood of Jesus. But only the creatures who actually need His justification are saved from God's wrath. Everybody else has to be self-justified and that means being justified by their works.
If I'd have dropped dead in that strip club with my buddy on that overcast Autumn afternoon, I would have been saved from God's wrath; not because I was living a holy life but because Jesus' blood had justified me. I didn't come to God telling Him I needed to go to heaven; I came to God telling Him I needed to be saved. There's a BIG difference. Whether I go to heaven is of lesser importance. I hope I do go to heaven but that's not what I'm in this for. I told God I could not live this life without Him. What happens in the hereafter is not of immediate concern.
Jesus came not to call the righteous, but the sinner to repentance. The righteous live by faith. They don't need to repent. The ones who need to repent are the ones who believe they have to work their way into a friendship with God. These are the sinners whom Jesus came to save.
Once you get hold of this theology then certain other passages of scripture start to make sense. When Jesus told me that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, I understand what He was talking about. On the other hand, when you are justified by what you do then you have to keep doing or else you stop feeling justified. Maybe this is why James wrote the following: 4:17To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. The apostle Paul called this lifestyle "condemnation". And for those of us who are "in Christ Jesus", there is no such philosophy as James 4:17.
Admitting guilt is good and healthy but living under shame is destructive. Psychology tells us that to say, "I made a mistake" is "guilt" but to say, "I AM a mistake" is "shame". By the same token, living under the pressure of James 4:17 every moment is a burdensome and destructive lifestyle. Because sleeping 8-hours a night is a sin. You could sleep just 7-hours and dedicate an hour to working for Jesus! Going on vacation is a sin because you could have used that time and money for a better purpose. You tithe but that's just 10-percent. 11-percent would be better.
Works righteousness is like a dog chasing its tail. There's never enough good you can do. If you live under the condemnation of James 4:17, you cannot rise above the very thing Jesus came to save you from - sin. Works righteousness keeps you in a cycle of defeat and leaves no hope for victory. This lifestyle eventually leads to burn-out at best and full-blown psychosis at worst.
Get a clue. The author of the book of James lived under a burden that none of us want to live under. Jesus died to save us from that burden. If James 4:17 were of God then we would have to erase the following passage from the canon of scripture: 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. James 4:17 is demonstrably grievous but it is consistent with the theology of works righteousness.
Or so it seems to me,
Rob
P.S. We don't have to be able to psycho-analyze the writers of the bible to arrive at the truth. I learned this by reading (and believing) what Paul and Luke wrote about James and his ilk. |
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| October 14, 2008 |
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Rob, I had hoped that answer to this question was made clear in my initial remarks on this. I'll repost the relevant portion below: "The reason why the conflict comes into play is because we have not yet answered the important contextual question: We are justified with respect to whom? Paul's message concerns people being made justified before God. And the only prerequisite here is one's faith in Jesus Christ. James discusses justification before man whereby we can guage whether our faith is legitimate or merely "lip service." To underscore this, James is also quick to emphasize that one's justification before God is via faith alone: 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. " Jewish tradition well understood that Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac is the climax of his faith in God. Thus the defining moment for Jews is this Aqedah. But for God he makes it patently clear in verse 23 that Abraham was already in God's favor. So when you ask, "When is Abraham justified - before or after this attempted sacrifice?" you're not supplying the necessary frame of reference. Abraham was justified before God prior to Aqedah and justified in the eyes of the Jews (the ethnicity of his audience here) at the moment of Aqedah. This might be better seen if we imagine a counterfactual: Suppose we're contempories with Abraham (maybe we're in a neighboring tent building a sundial) and he confides in us on a guys' night out that he won't obey God to sacrifice his son Isaac. It is correct to say both that "Abraham didn't believe God and it was reckoned to him as condemnation" and "Abraham was condemned for his lack of works." The latter that the other Jews would see confirms the former that God already knows. This is beyond the Paul-James schism (which I think you've trumped up a bit); it's a case of James (v. 21) vs. James (v. 23)! We're being asked to consider a remarkable hypothesis that the same author contradicts himself two verses later! The view I've represented is simpler and in synch with the New Testament data on justification and avoids the inexplicable self-contradiction of a learned Jew within two verses of each other! |
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| October 14, 2008 |
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Rob (my brother in Christ), James admitted to his many imperfections in regards to the Law (James 3:2). He put only four simple requirements (Acts 15:20) on Gentile converts of his day (rather than the whole Law) out of consideration for their Jewish brothers (NOT in order for them to be righteous by the Law), and he even said "we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God" (Acts 15:19). Furthermore, there is no need to read into Gal 2:12 ("For before that some came from James...") that these men were sent by James himself. MY conclusion is that James was certainly not the Judaizer and error-prone writer you are making him out to be. In cases of seeming contradictions in scripture (this is by no means the only one!), we owe it to ourselves and those we influence to humbly accept that we might not know as much as we think, and spend more time in research, rather than assert that certain biblical writers are in error simply because we haven't yet been able to reconcile their writings with other parts of the bible. Bro, it's time for me to bow out of this one. I don't have the time nor the interest in debating this further with ya. Neither of us are putting yokes on our Christian brethren, and at this point that's good enough for me. God bless! |
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| January 07, 2009 |
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| Thanks storypeddler, your post confirms what I believe has been hammered out here, that there is no contradiction, just different viewpoints. Careful study shows James' theology to be no different than Paul's. I appreciate your explanation! |
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