PastorChris
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||October 01, 2008 at 12:56pm|email it|112 reads
 

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Carol and Mike
October 01, 2008 at 2:01pm
"The early church didn't partner with Hindus, Confucians, Muslims, etc. in bettering humanity.  They recognized there is a spiritual difference."

We also need to recognize that difference, and stop worrying about "political correctness." God help us if we don't!
GraceAlone
October 01, 2008 at 5:01pm
I dont consider Rick Warren Saved. I believe the Apostate Church is the Purpose driven
PastorChris
October 02, 2008 at 9:57am
I think part of it is "Purpose Driven" and "seeker-friendly".  But it goes way beyond that!  The Purpose Driven church has it's role in legitimizing the ecuminism across religions, but is mixed with the New Age spirituality and Political Correctness that's seeped into our churches.  By the way, I like that line Lara, "it ain't no refreshing lake either!"  Haha... whew, it's not!  Care if I use that with the youth?
Eric
October 02, 2008 at 1:51pm

I'm not sure I can agree with the spin in this blog, Chris.  I'm reminded of your blog from a few months ago that blacklisted dozens of prominent Christian apologists and theologians for allegedly embracing and teaching pagan spiritual practices as "new" Christianity.  I looked into a few of them and found the quotes to be tenuously connected at best.  I'm seeing a repeat here.  

Consider one homeless alcoholic.  Call him Clive.  You go up to Clive and give him the full Gospel message with bells and whistles and scripture references.  He asks antagonistic questions.  You answer them politely.  He firmly states his answer:  "no."  His firm refusal is now clearly established.  What do you do next?  Well, of course you could continue to pray for him and give the Gospel differently whenever the opportunity arises, but there is also this sticking point:

25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
2:15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

Clearly, we are also called to "partner" with Clive to minister his physical needs.

You and I are in agreement that we need to evangelize to everybody on the planet.  If a village is not receptive, we are not called to ignore them. What are we to do?  Do the best we can to help them.  This is what I see Warren talking about.

Another point:  yes, we need to speak the truth clearly.  Calling somebody a sinner is good (especially augmented with the fact that we are sinners too, so superiority is not communicated).  Calling somebody a cultist is just going to cause them to shut their ears.  Paul said the exact opposite of this when speaking to the Greeks (Acts 17). 

I think there are many ways to evangelize.  After all, an aspect of evangelism is making friends; connecting at a personal level.  People are all different.  One way that works for me (albeit I'm pretty inexperienced) is working from within their own faith system and not calling them a heathen.  Be a friend, walk like a Christian, and when opportunity presents, talk about what you believe, Who you believe.  As Ravi Zacharias often says, "I don't like to throw mud at other religions for two reasons:  you get your hands dirty and you lose a lot of ground." This is what I see Warren doing.  There is a theoretical/theological way of speaking, and there is a practical way of speaking.  Jesus primarilly spoke in the latter; in Romans Paul spoke in the former.

Let me know your thoughts.  But I think the intentions of Warren need to be analized with a larger scope than this.  I haven't read his stuff, but I hear nothing but good things from his theology by people that I respect for their spiritual maturity.

Eric
October 02, 2008 at 1:52pm
By the way, be brutal in beating out of me "PC" vapidness and "worldliness."  I seek to abhor those things in the name of Christ.  If I have been caught blindsided, call me out on it.
Eric
October 02, 2008 at 1:57pm

By the way, I highly admire the dedication and zeal of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons in their evangelism efforts.  That is the truth.  I am not afraid to say that, and my saying this does not legitimize their gospel one whit.  Abstaining from saying this not only makes me insincere, it causes tension in relationships.

"Men of Athens!  I see that in every way you are very religious!"

PastorChris
October 03, 2008 at 10:46am

Amen brother... I admire their zeal in evangelism... though they are required, part of their "works doctrine" to earn celestial heaven and become gods.  If they fail, they'll only go to the telestial heaven.  In their theology, the only ones who go to hell are the apostate momrons.  How's that for cult theology? 

Now for the beating, haha!  Certainly, I agree with you in meeting people... you usually can't tell people to their face they're going to hell... and most responses to salvation are made through relationships.  The "good deeds" that Warren is empahasizing aren't in and of themself bad, for we were saved for good deeds in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:10).  By all means we should be engaged in servanthood and deeds of love, but not at the expense of the gospel.  Warren does not mention the gospel, or explain it as a basis for salvation.  He is falling into the camp of teaching that "everyone is going to heaven," much as Mormons state, though I'm sure their conception differs. 

And for me, it's not that I want to demonize Warren... but I think the teaching is so heretical!  Brian Mclaren, of the emerging church actually denies the atonement!!!  I don't know why he calls his meeting a church.  Actually, I do know why, because he is deceived and a tool of his master.

Eric
October 03, 2008 at 2:03pm

Brian Mclaren?  I'll have to do a little more reading.  I haven't heard of him.  According to Wikipedia, his church is 10 minutes away from where I live! 

Honestly, I've mostly ignored the goings-ons of "seeker friendly" churches.  One of them brought me to Christ, and many of the small groups there have read Warren's PDL.  If Mclaren denies the atonement, this is indeed heretical.  Does Warren ignore the Gospel in his writings?  I'll verify with someone who's read his stuff.  

Eric
October 03, 2008 at 2:06pm
But yeah, the Gospel should be communicated clearly as often as possible.  I'm reading through The Cross Centered Life by CJ Mahaney which uses Paul (my hero) as a model.  The Gospel revolved around everything Paul did and said.
Eric
October 03, 2008 at 2:13pm

From Brian Mclaren's church's website's statement of belief:

We believe that all people are created with dignity and value in the image of God, to live in a vital relationship with God. However, through our sin (failing to live by God´s moral standards), we break our intended relationship with God and we experience the destructive consequences of that broken relationship, spiritually and socially, in this life and beyond. However, God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to rescue us from those consequences and to restore our broken relationships with God and others, through Christ´s death on the cross, a perfect act of redemption for each of us. Salvation comes to people on the basis of God´s grace through their faith in Jesus alone. They receive the free gift of forgiveness and are spiritually reborn through repenting of their sin and believing in Jesus Christ. Good works and a holy life, although totally unable to save anyone, are the natural product of repentant, believing people.

Pardoning the Arminian slant, I think this is a very good summary of the Gospel and the Atonement of Christ.

PastorChris
October 07, 2008 at 1:24pm
Ah, my friend... but for certain churches, you can no longer take what they say on their website as truth, but must be familiar from what the pastor teaches or endorses.  I found this article on Mcclaren at www.carm.org:

I've done a lot of research on McLaren, reading his books and I'm very sad to say that there are some serious problems.  One of the most disturbing I have found is his endorsement of a book by Alan Jones called Reimagining Christianity.  McLaren wholeheartedly approves of the book and yet in this book, Alan Jones says that the vicarious atonement of Christ is a vial doctrine. He casts strong doubt over the Bible's reliability, denies the virgin birth, says Christianity a sadomasochistic, affirms evolution, and sees religions such as Islam and Buddhism as equally valid compared to Christianity.  In my assessment, Alan Jones is not a Christian and no true Christian should ever support the book reimagining Christianity.

But, what does Brian McLaren actually teach?  Some pretty disturbing things!  You Can go to the first and second articles that list a series of quotes from him.  In them you will see how troubling Brian McLaren's teachings really are.  Among the quotes he states such things as Christianity is a little true, that perhaps our understanding of Christianity is wrong, that masculine pronouns used to describe God should be avoided, that we probably haven't got the gospel right yet, that understanding nothing is good, that Gandhi followed the way of Christ, that being saved is not being saved from God's damnation, that we haven't got the homosexuality issue right, and that systematic theology is a practice in arrogance.

Therefore, I can only conclude that Brian McLaren is a dangerous teacher. 
http://www.carm.org/emerging/brian_mclaren.htm

PastorChris
October 07, 2008 at 3:09pm
For a good video clip on Mclaren, check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ygIay4OcNw.  Scary stuff.
Eric
October 10, 2008 at 2:07pm

Wow, you cited CARM!  I came back here because, while searching CARM for something on Zen Buddhism, I found a whole page directed to this Mclaren guy!  LOL!  Is God trying to wake me up?

http://www.carm.org/emerging/brian-mclaren_quotes2.htm

I'm not sure what to say about not being able to trust statements of beliefs....  If I can't trust what anybody says, how am I to operate?  Call me naiive and young, I dunno.  I'm an optimist by nature.

Eric
October 10, 2008 at 5:58pm
OH MY GOD!!!!

I'm listening to Ravi Zacharias right now, a Q&A session, and a student asks Ravi what's up with the Emergant Church!!! 

God's trying to wake me up!
PastorChris
October 14, 2008 at 10:43am
Dude... even Ravi seems to be following the contemplative path of mysticism.  He is seemingly promoting mystics like Henri Nouwen.  Praise the LORD God is waking you up brother!!! 
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