I stumble, I fall, He picks me up.......it still amazes me :)

JUST REMEMBER THERE ARE ALWAYS SOLUTIONS AND ONE IS WITH GOD. YOU FALL GET BACK UP!

We are to learn from those mistakes and not make them again...  That is part of the process of getting closer to our Father...  He knows us inside and out and he stands there picking us up everytime we do something that is not in his will. 

Perfection is my Father and I am just his humble servant...

We know that being under law results in a consciousness of sin:

If you are under law you have this nagging conviction that you are inadequate.  James the brother of Jesus had this very inadequacy working against him.

How many Christians are walking around with that little piece of guilt and condemnation working against them?  Plenty.  Are you doing the best you can for God 24-hours a day / 7-days a week?  Shame on ya; ya big sinner!

There was another apostle who lived during the first century who boldly proclaimed:

What is this "condemnation" that he's speaking about?  It turns out that it was this very sense of inadequacy that dogs everyone who is in the flesh - under law:

Mike, in the first century, they called these different states of mind "spiritual".  In the twenty-first century, we call these states of mind "psychological".  Psychologists have found that living with an abiding sense of inadequacy (i.e. shame) damages us.  The apostle Paul discovered this very truth some 2000 years ago.

Religion is man's vain attempt to reconcile with God.  Religion deceives us into believing that if we are sincere enough and if we try hard enough we can achieve union with God.  Religion has no room for the work that God did to reconcile man to Himself.  Religion does not consider God's efforts.

There is no room for (and no mention of) the Savior in this "pure and undefiled religion".  It's all about what I have to do to stay right with God.

Maybe we should ask ourselves why we find James' brand of condemnation "immeasurably comforting".  Could it just be that misery loves company?

Just a thought,
Rob

Hey Rob, you don't have to be "under the law" to be hard on yourself, for goodness sakes! But if you've found total freedom from any expectations of yourself, good for you. I'm truly happy for ya!

You said, "Religion is man's vain attempt to reconcile with God."  No, that's your narrow definition of religion, my friend. James' religion was one that impacted a person's whole life, as opposed to compartmentalized intellectual beliefs and warm fuzzy feelings. If your religion doesn't motivate you to go out and extend the love of God to your fellow man, what good is it??? (That is James' message, and I for one love it! I also fail to see the condemnation in it.)

Carrie Ann, thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate them! Your comments remind me that Paul admonished the Ephesians to "be imitators of God". That is the same as striving for perfection (as we define perfection in modern English). However, I don't really think we should beat ourselves up and feel guilty and shameful when we fall short. We should expect to miss the mark, yet we should persevere. The strength to persevere, for me, comes from love of God (devotion, appreciation), and a fear of God (awe, respect, fear based on knowledge of who he is). We simply have too much to be joyful about, given all God has done for us!

Nevertheless, I am glad to know that a great saint like James admitted to stumbling often, making many mistakes, or offending all (depending on which bible version you use).

Conclusion: in this Chapter We find How Devilish The Un -Tamed Tongue is & that Man CAN NOT
Tame The Tongue.
Yet it is God in Us ....IF He is Really There ...Then  ONLY Pure Water can Come from The Well,
His Living Waters....if Sin is there it Spoils the Entire Well.
We Must Allow God To Tame Our Tongue allowing Him To Live & Speak The Living Waters of Life Through Us.

If We are The New Creature The Old Man is Truly Put to Death Jesus Becomes the Fig Tree in Us
that bears only the Figs then.
It shows in this chapter that the Tongue - only under proper control [God's] will it serve the correct Purposes.
Guidence of the Ship.

The Guidence System of God.....[Only if We Hear & obey Him & His Word]....yet WE MUST Speak the
Word on [OUR TONGUE] & Do The Word .

Speaking The Word & The Will of God is The First indication of Completing the Doing & Carrying Out in Action.... the Word.
If I say to You I am Going to Paint My House Pink....on Oct. 31.....You would on Nov. 1st expect to LIKELY see a Pink House , so The Tongue sets into MOTION...gets the Ball Rolling.....

So James is Making a Lesson to Allow God to Tame Our Tongue & Us to Get Out of the Way of God,
[not to hinder Him] allowing God to take all control of Our Tongue.

Thus Speaking in Tongues....a New Language...Heavenly....His.

Read Hebrews 10:1-4.  The Law had the effect of annually reminding the worshiper of his sins.  The Law keeps you conscious of sin.

The advantage of the New Covenant (the Covenant of Grace) is that we indeed have no more conscience of sin (thanks to the finished work of Jesus).

Paul said it this way:

Once we are given a commandment (law) the natural response is to disobey it.  Is this the result of Adam's sin or was that the way God made us?  It seems to be the way God made us because Adam didn't disobey until after the commandment came.

Focusing on law puts us under law.  Focusing on grace puts us under grace.  If we are under law, we are under the very power of sin.

According to the way I read the bible, it seems that law and grace are incompatible.  Through the law comes the knowledge of sin and that knowledge inevitably pulls us toward it. 

Shane, please support your assertions using the bible.  I don't have so much trouble with your first statement - that grace gives us the ability to handle sin effectively - but the second statement is a bit more troubling.  I think the bible teaches that the more "under law" one is, the more conscious of sin one becomes.

Respectfully,
Rob

Rob, I've said before, you don't have to be "under the law" to be hard on yourself. My daughter has torn up pages from coloring books, just b/c she went out of the lines too much. It wasn't b/c anyone was demanding she attain a certain standard either, it's just her personality! This blog wasn't about the theology of law vs. grace, it was about the comfort of finding someone who's "in the same boat", particularly someone I wouldn't have expected given James' straightforward talk about Christian conduct. It's ok to be imperfect, to make mistakes (stumble, fall, and offend acc. to other versions), as he admitted. Sorry, I know that doesn't answer your question. I suppose you could consult a commentary for the answer you seek.

That verse of scripture, I know for a fact, is keeping people whom I know, love, and go to church with, in a cycle of shame and defeat.  To think that there is nothing that can save you from sin - because there's always more good that you can do - is a sure way to get yourself into a straight jacket.  That verse of scripture is the text book definition of "condemnation".  There is no healthy reaction to James 4:17 except to ignore it.

Think about what you read and how you read it, Mike.  If you feel like you are "in the same boat" as the writer of James, you need to pay attention to that.  If you're seeing evidence of this pattern in your little girl, ask yourself good questions.  I know what the shame cycle produces in people (I'm a perfect example).  I wouldn't wish my troubles on anyone - especially my little girl.

The possibility that an apostle can teach error is warned about in the writings of both Paul and Luke.  We do not have to check our intellect at the door when we pick up the bible.  Good news makes for healthy minds.  Condemnation keeps us in sin (re: James 4:17).

Rob

Hey Rob,

Ijust wanted to offer some suggestions for considerations, though i could give you Bible to back up my belief about how our sin consciousness becomes magnified by grace I will refrain because I don't have the desire to do it.  Rather I challenge you to look to the tradition of the Christian tradition where many have have experience this truth James experienced while always holding to the ideals God sets before us.  i do not mean to be convincing but to offer a helpful consideration to some who are ready to here it.

Shane

You are good at defusing arguments Mike.  I appreciate the grace with which you approach controversy.

Shane, thanks! As for grace/law, might you be referring to verses like Ps. 40:8, Isa 51:7, Jer 31:33, Heb 10:16, etc?

Rob, you said "That verse of scripture, I know for a fact, is keeping people whom I know, love, and go to church with, in a cycle of shame and defeat." May I also turn your words back on you (and, I suppose, these people you know and love). Think about what you read and how you read it, Rob. This is scripture, and there is a right way to read it and a wrong way. If you (or your friends) are caught in a cycle of defeat, I guarantee you it isn't the words of James that are responsible. It is how you are reading them! (We can't simply pronounce a biblical writer to be "in error" simply b/c we can't understan, or don't like, what they wrote!)

A lollipop is a good thing! But to a sugar addict, it is a source of bondage!! Is the problem the lollipop, or the addict's approach to it?

ps... Get real, nobody here is checking their intellect at the door, buddy!

Rob - James 4:17 is a great verse flowing with grace.  It is only grace that causes us to be aware of good and then come to a knowledge of all the sin that resides within our flesh.  It is so easy to mistake feelings of shame for the healthy feelings of the "fear of the Lord" (reverance, respect, and awe at who he is).  If I believe God's word to be true then I must respectfully submit and surrender to it or my words mean nothing.  The only reason this verse would be received as bondage is that those who are trying to obey the Word are going about it through direct effort.  Direct effort results in shame and guilt that we can't do enough good to match the Scriptural commands.  It is the new form of living under the law, however, James words are simply what we has come to experience, not what he is demanding us to achieve.  We are called to look at God's ideal and through indirect effort, meaning looking to God alone and in his presence become aware of our sin, followed by confession and repentance of it we can receive that grace that ultmately will conform us to not just James words, but the even greater words we are commanded to live up to, those of our Lord Himself.  "Be perfect as I am perfect."  is a much more difficult command to swallow than anything James has to say, and those words came from our Savior Himself.  He would not tell us to do what we were incapable of doing.  He wouldn't tell us to do something that would lead us into greater bondage, instead he is the means through which we can become what he has commanded us to be.  The human problem is that we try to become it all right now.  God's plan is that we learn to live into his words and these words of James.  This is why James is so content with admitting his own weaknesses, it isn't him who is doing the work.  James only responsibility is to cling to the Father and receive grace through his own faith that will create the new desires and ambitions that begin to look more and more like what he knows God wants us all to become.  James assumes we know how this process works because of all of the other teachings of Scripture, he is certainly not asking us to make it happen on our own.  Of all people to know better it would be James, the half brother of Jesus and the leader of the early church.  

I am replying to the original post here.  One must understand what it means to be perfect.  Let us look at the scripture for a minute:  Matt 5:44-48

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV

The word perfect means to be complete and mature--If you just do good to those who love you what thank do ye have becasue Jesus said even sinners do the same.  It is being a mature person in the Lord and it is attainable through the power of Jesus Christ.  One must love the unlovely, show kindness to the unkind, show mercy, etc. 

Garry, it is debatable whether the perfection Jesus spoke about is in fact attainable or rather an end state we are to continually strive for. It has previously been pointed out that perfect means spiritually mature. I agree it doesn't mean "sinless". Thanks for your comment.

Joey, you poor kid!!

Works righteousness is a subtle deception.  Notice that the apostle Paul spoke in the present tense - not something that will happen to us in the future, if we work hard enough.  Most of the references to sanctification in the New Testament refer to it as a "done deal".  Most church folk refer to sanctification as something we have to earn (i.e. a lifelong process).  The term "sanctification process" is NEVER used in the New Testament but that doesn't stop church people from teaching as if it were.  I think it all goes back to that, "traditional Christian tradition" (or whatever Shane called it).

Mike, you have well said, "Think about what you read and how you read it".  In your opinion, what would be the best way to read James 4:17?  If a passage of scripture is destroying people, how do we stop it?  If the gospel ceases to be good news, what's the best way to remedy that?

Real people are being destroyed by this religion, Mike. I honestly do not know how to relieve these people's guilty consciences.  They need to repent (literally: change their minds) but I don't have any advice other than, "Consider the source", to comfort them.  What would you tell them, Mike?

Sincerely,
Rob

Hi Mike...
It's all white noise, honey

The very person you quote as being against sin consciousness says otherwise.   His words "leads to salvation" which is the process of sanctification.  He says, "What earnestness to clear yourselves" that can't come but through self-examination and sin-consciousness.  This isn't guilt but a confident approach in the practical nature of grace.  Paul and James were certainly on the same page just with different points of view.  

In Romans Paul was not giving people grace as an excuse to ignore sin, those who do will be condemned.  To take your stance is harmful and at odds with not just James but Paul too.  So should we let sin be within us and ignor it or should we through grace expose it to God's grace.  We do play a role and that is all James is saying.  The guilt and self-condemnation of grace is no where in Scripture and certainly not in James.  

 I don't normally use Scripture because of the nature of arguments that come from it.  Anyone can find verses to back up what they believe, but in this case you need some Scriptural context.

God and James knew that we could not be perfect in our current state, so why did God command it of us?

His plan for us is perfect and perfection is change, to change for the better, to become a bit more like him with every stumble. Exercising faith and true repentance will achieve this.To be perfect, is to be perfecting ourselves in this manner. By any other method is less than perfect.

Grace is mercy. We are not given the blessing of grace until we have done our due diligence. If grace were the underlying foundation of our salvation, then why are we given commandments?

Grace only comes in our behalf after we have done all that we can do. Acknowledging Him as my Savior is only the beginning. I must acknowledge Him in specific actions Love thy neighbor, keep my commandments, feed my sheep are all actions.  

If you have faith, ye shall say...  The opposite of that is true also.  If ye have doubt, ye shall not say...  Most Christians who die of disease have never spoken to their mountain.  Oh, they certainly beg God to heal them but they never do  what Jesus said do.  That's faith without works.  Jesus said that if you had faith, you would speak to your mountains.  Most Christians, by that definition, are unbelievers.  They are afraid of the persecution of those who would call them "Name it and claim it" Christians.  Fear of persecution is keeping lots of people out of the kingdom of God.

I knew a woman who was in the church for 15-years.  Once, in a conversation, she confessed all kinds of sin that she was involved in at the time (naked pictures on the Internet, doing drugs, etc.)  I couldn't believe my ears.  I was freakin' out.  I was like 6-months old in the Lord (again) and I couldn't believe she was stuck in the very thing Jesus had saved me from.  But there we were - two people who were conscious of their sin.  One was walking in it, the other was delivered from it.  I was happy to be free but at the same time, she was in it over her head.  I prayed for her and then I got out of there with a quickness!

Sin consciousness is only beneficial if you are free from it.  James was not talking about freedom from sin.  He was talking about being stuck in it.  Look at how he described the tongue.

No man can tame the tongue.  Compare that to the theology of Paul.

One apostle is defeated in that "no man can tame [the tongue]".  Another apostle "can do all things through Christ".  I would assume that would include taming the tongue.  One apostle preached a message of power that he called "my gospel".  The other apostle preached a message of defeat that he called "religion".  One apostle emphasized the importance of Jesus, the other barely mentions His name.  One apostle says we are justified by faith only, the other says we are justified by our works.  One apostle says we are "free from sin", the other sees a sin in every action or inaction.  One apostle collected money from his churches to feed the starving members of the other apostle's church.  The apostle who was saved by grace through faith did more good works than the apostle who was justified by his works.

The bible seems to present two ways.  One is called "good news", the other is called "pure and undefiled religion".  It's up to us to chose life or death, blessing or cursing.

Rob

"One of his sons - a deacon in the church - shares his theology of condemnation.  And it's all based on James 4:17."

Rob, people have also used scripture to justify things like slavery and genocide. However, it isn't scripture that is enslaving anyone in guilt, it's the misreading of it. Have you consulted any other sources of info on the scriptures which trouble you? Or do you rely entirely on yourself to stumble into the proper reading of it? There are people who have devoted their lives to the study of scripture. You would do well to consult some of them. At least get yourself a fresh perspective, and one that honors scripture, all of it.

I'm not on MyChurch to debate any topic endlessly. I left this one when I read this - "If a passage of scripture is destroying people, how do we stop it?" I read in my bible the following, 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

Rebuking and correcting don't feel good, and they aren't supposed to either. Scripture's purpose isn't to put us all into a warm fuzzy comfort zone. Sometimes we struggle with what we read. But if the struggle leads us toward God, it's all good. There is also the lesson here that someone more experienced in handling scripture is needed to teach, rebuke, correct, and train. May I suggest you find such a person and quit leading the less experienced astray.  Yes, this comment was written in love and with great concern, brother. Concern for you AND for my readers. If you have anything more to add, please do so by messaging me. Thanks!

Terrific word! I just taught on the same idea recently and used the song by Bob Carlisle(?)"We fall down" and it really hits home with not only humbleness, but the willingness to get back up after you fall down.

Be blessed by He who blesses.