Hey, thanks for the post. It has taken 8 months for someone to take the time and effort :)

I completely agree with you that all men have faith ( of sorts ). Everyone has the type of faith you mentioned, faith in thier doctor, bridge builders, ect. Then there is faith unto salvation which is a gift from God. (Eph 2:8) Eph 2 is a good chapter to start in for this discussion. Starting in verse 1 through verse 5, we were all dead in trespasses and sins, conducting ourselves in the lust of our flesh, and fullfulling our sinful desires, But God, while we were dead made us alive. We were dead, not wounded, not flopping on the bank.. but dead. It took an act of God to resurrect us to life, which then, and only after then we could exercise the faith He has given.

Man is saved by grace, through faith. God in his mercy and grace grants us the faith to believe in him. Without this faith we cannot believe. Who does God grant this faith too? Is it to everyone? The answer would have to be the elect, the preordained, the chosen, his sheep. If believing faith to salvation is granted to all, then all would believe, yet there are many who choose not to.

Christ died as a substitute, in the place of the sinner. If Christ took the sin of a person on himself and died for it, and that person in turn went to hell that is double jeopardy and unjust. Just like our judicial system, if someone is convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison, and person in the crowd stands up and says that they will take thier place and suffer thier due punishment for them... then the judge gives punishment to both, is that just? That in a sence is what you are saying God has done. He has sent his Son to die, to pay for sins.. and then punished both his Son and the sinners. Unless, you believe that ALL man throughout all of time will be saved, which I know you don't believe that. It can be said that Christ died for all men, and the condition of salvation is upon faith, and repentence. It can be said that Christ loves all men, yet he has a special love for his bride, one he is willing to lay down His life for. (Eph 5:25) or (John 10:15) He lays down his life for His sheep. He is talking about a certain group of people, for in (John 10:25-27) he talks about those who are not His sheep, and they don't believe because they are not His sheep. Also (John 15:13-17) Christ said that He would lay down His life for his "friends." (Acts 20:28) Says that Christ purchased the church with His own blood, not all men are the church. (Rom 8:32-34) God did not spare His own Son, but delievered Him up for us all. who shall bring a charge against God's elect? Christ died, and is risen and makes intercession for us. Who is this us? The Church at Rome. Believers. The death of Christ is sufficient for all men but is only efficient for the elect. There is a sence in which Christ died for all. All nationalities, there is neither slave, nor free, rich nor poor, Jew or Gentile, but He died subsitutionaly,in the place of the elect. Making salvation of His sheep certain.

I agree completely with you that what saves is belief on Jesus Christ, but what we differ on is how one comes to that belief. From the fall of Adam, man is by nature sinful. The natural mind is at enmity or hatred against God (Rom 8:7-9) How can someone in thier natural mind, who the bible says hates God...choose Christ? They don't even want to!.. it is to say, thier "want to" is broken.. they cannot choose the things of God. (John 3:19-20) men love darkness rather than light. Everyone practicing evil hates the light. Man, in and of himself loves his sin, loves the darkness he is hiding in. Unless God brings one out of that, and opens his eyes to the truth he will keep on living his life of sin. A sinner doesn't want Christ, he is doing just what he wants to, by his own free will he is living the life that he wants. It isn't until God removes the heart of stone, and gives us a heart of flesh (Ez 36:25) man doesn't even want God.

Why does God choose some and not others? That I cannot answer, but God chooses, the bible states it over and over. (Rom 9:10-26)vs11 Rebecca's children not even born yet so the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls. vs13 "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I hated." What.. God HATE?....before they were born? vs14 is there unrighteousness with God? as Paul says, Certainly Not! vs15 He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. vs 16, so it is not of him who wills or him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. It isn't, I have faith so therfore I am saved.. it is God who shows mercy in granting us that faith, enabling us to believe upon him. Its not because we will to, or want to...it is God. vs 17Pharaoh was raised up so God may show His power. vs18 God has mercy on who He wills, and who He wills.....he hardens. So, why are we to blame? vs 20 Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" vs21 Does not the potter have the power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and one for dishonor. We are all from the same fallen lump, but God in His mercy showed grace toward some, and wanting to show His wrath to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. Vs24, even us ( once again, believers) whom He called, not of the Jews only.. but the Gentiles. (John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whoever belives on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Who will believe on God? Those he has called. (Rom 8:28-31) Who He predestined, these He called, whom He called, these He Justified, whom He justified these He glorified. (Eph 1:4-5) predestined us to adoption as sons according to the good pleasure of His will...not ours, God's. (Eph 1:11 Predestined according to His purpose who works all things according to His will. Then there is back to (Eph 2) also (Col 2:12-14) while being dead in trespasses and sin He has made alive having forgiven all trespasses, having wiped out the requirements against us, nailing it to the cross..in our place, as our substitute. (1 Peter 1:9-10) we are a chosen generation, a holy nation..His own special people who He called out of darkness. (1 John 4:10 ) Not that we loved God, but He loved us. He sent His Son to be our substitute.

This has become very long..but for the rest of your comment we are pretty much in agreement. I believe that man has a free will to do what he wants, aside from saving himself because, well he doesn't want to. I don't believe that God is the director of some cosmic puppet show, but he brings things into our lives, influences, experiences and such which guide us along His path. (Prov 16:9) I really appreciate the time you have taken to leave a comment, I am sorry if my responce is to long, just once I got going I couldn't stop. I posted this entry to try to prod some of my friends and family into a discussion which is where the questions all come from. Once again, thanks for your responce and I am looking forward to more :)