|
| Thoughts On Mechanical Instruments In Worship |
|
| |
For quite some time I have been debating against instruments. In this sermon, you will see my points and beliefs on this topic. Please don't judge this sermon based on the first few points I make. This sermon changes view as it goes along…So please read the WHOLE sermon, not just the points. Argument for Instruments: - The Bible says in the Old Testament that instruments are okay. (Many verses support this and the more commonly known ones are in Psalms.)
- The New Covenant commands us to in Ephesians 5:19; psalms, which came from the Greek word “Psallo”, means to twitch or twang, i.e. to play on a stringed instrument.
- Revelations gives examples of people using instruments.
- If you don’t use instruments, you will be taking away from the Bible; therefore, you will be sinning.
- Why would God change His mind (used instruments in the Old Covenant, but didn’t in the New)?
Argument against Instruments: - Instruments were a part of the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant is no longer binding (Romans 7:1-6, Ephesians 2:13-15, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 8:7-13).
- The New Covenant DOES NOT command us to use instruments in Ephesians 5:19; psalms means sing a hymn (in many dictionaries; don’t just look in one.) It only said sing throughout the New Covenant.
- Every example in the New Covenant of worshiping only said “sing” but didn’t say instruments.
- Revelations is metaphorical.
- If you add instruments into worship, you are adding on to the commands of the New Covenant; therefore, you sin.
I believe that instruments shouldn’t be used in worship, because of the following: - I’m not sure if instruments are okay or if they are wrong to be used in worship.
- If we add instruments in worship, we could have the possibility of sinning; and that can equal condemnation.
- If we condemn instruments, we could have the possibility of sinning; and can equal condemnation.
- We don’t have the authority to authorize nor do we have the authority to condemn instruments in worship; God does.
- The Old Covenant WAS completed when Christ died and the New Covenant was set up.
- The New Covenant is virtually silent on instruments in worship.
I conclude with the following: We don’t know what will happen to those who use instruments in worship; therefore, why use them?-especially if there is no command in the New Covenant. I won’t use them because we don’t know if it is okay nor do we know what will happen to those who use them. God bless as you decide for yourself what you believe on instruments! This sermon may be incorrect. I haven’t edited it yet. |
|
| To add a comment to "Thoughts On Mechanical Instruments In Worship" |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| May 27, 2007 |
 |
|
|
| Here's a thought...what else do you do in your service that is NOT explicitly commanded in the New Testament? If you apply this line of logic to music, you must apply it to the other areas of your service as well. Are you doing what you are supposed to? |
|
|
| May 27, 2007 |
|
|
|
Here are the thoughts that came to my mind after reading this post: There are things in the OT that God forbids and then says is not forbidden in the NT (such as eating certain foods.) But can you find an OT thought that is encouraged and then called sin in the NT? So you think that awhile ago God loved instruments, and then He just changed His mind? Our God is the same yesterday, today and forever! Although I wouldn't call it sin if you don't use an instrument, you could be denying God and yourself, this expression of worship. I would be cautious to call things "sin" that God never called sin.
I hope that this note is found in the spirit of love in which it has been written. I would hope that when you wrote this post, that you assumed that the opposing side would participate in the discussion.
|
|
|
| May 27, 2007 |
|
|
|
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
All scripture from Genesis to Revelations, 66 books divinely inspired of God, is (right now) profitable for you and I become like Jesus! The Old Testament is full of Shadows, pictures and types for us to learn by. Without the old Testament we wouldnt understand the New Testament. Take for instance the Tabernacle and its workings. This is a picture of our Lord and Savoiur Jesus Christ, he is the more perfect tabernacle. When Jesus died on the cross there was no more need for the shedding of animal blood. The veil in the temple was rent in twain from top to the bottom. Jesus is that perfect sacrifice that died as the spotless, willing Lamb of God for our sins. There are many examples i could give you about the Old Testament being for us today. The practices, traditions were no longer needed because Jesus put away the old and became the new. He didnt changed his mind, all scripture has, is and always will bear witness to the truth. Its like a blanket carefully woven with love and care, interlaced together imprinted with a beautiful eternal imprint for all to see! The only place in the bible that tells us how to praise his Name is found in Psalms which is in the Old Testament. The Old Testament also gives us the 10 commandments which we to this day abide by. They have taken Prayer out of the schools, the 10 commandments out of the court room, are we going to let them take away that which God has commanded us to do which is ................. 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
As for me and my house we will worship the LORD! God bless! |
|
|
| May 28, 2007 |
|
|
|
Rita, the book of Revelations is more metaphorical than literal. And just because the angels in heaven have the authority to use instruments, doesn't mean we do have the authority to use instruments in worship here on earth.
Zach & Jessica, yes, I am doing what I am supposed to do in worship. I will not let girls teach in church because of 1 Tim. 2 and 1 Cor. 13, etc. I don't need to go on.
Eiko, thank you! I have been debating on this and this just gives me another reason not to use instruments in worship (besides the heart).
Sue, if you recall from my sermon, I have been unconclusive. In other words, I never called it sin. If I did, I would have a lot more things like "don't use instruments in worship..." etc. And please read the link that Eiko reffered to.
Anthony, yes I understand that without the Old Testament, we wouldn't be able to understand the New Testament and why God sent His son to die on the old rugged cross for our sake. |
|
|
| May 28, 2007 |
|
|
|
| my question was more one of...do you do things in worship that aren't specified in the New Testament? |
|
|
| May 28, 2007 |
|
|
|
| what are the instruments in revelation metaphors for? |
|
|
| May 28, 2007 |
|
|
|
I'm just going to answer based on the sermon, which is the basis of your argument. I do realize that the sermon is incorrect in a few points. And yes, I have read the whole sermon
svtofLord,
The only argument that I see that is against instruments in this sermon is that when you add instruments to worship, you are adding on to the commands of the New Covenant, therefore sinning.
Point #4 on the argument for instruments and point #5 on the argument against instruments are flawed. For point #4, show me one place in the Bible where it says you must use instruments in worship. In the scripture that Anthony put up it says to praise him with instruments and also it says let everything that hath breath praise the Lord. It never says you must do one or the other. It says, summing up; praise him with instruments and with your voice.
Then on the other hand show me a place in the New Testament where it says you can't use instruments during worship. You said in your conclusion that ,"I won’t use them because we don’t know if it is okay nor do we know what will happen to those who use them." I personally don't think that God would leave a topic as big as this left unclear in his word. If in the Old Testament, it is pushing the fact that we should use instruments and our voices during worship and in the New Testament it is, “virtually silent on instruments in worship”, then it isn't condemned in the Bible. Therefore I think that we are OK in using instruments in worship. I play bass in my worship group at my church. The fact that I play to worship and lift up God, in my opinion, doesn’t mean I am sinning.
God Bless,
JoshMo |
|
|
| May 29, 2007 |
|
|
|
I know point 4 is flawed and that is b/c that's what most believe so I put it in there. Some of the points aren't mine-they're others so I thought I would be able to inform others about their arguments...I never said that you can't...If you remember that I said mechanical instruments in the title. I'll praise the Lord with all my heart-that's the instrument.
Befor anyone else argues, I must say this:
This sermon has not been updated in a while. I posted it on myspace a long time ago and I just copied and put it on here which is why I added that this needs to be updated on the points of those who are for and against mechanical instruments in worship and my veiw on this topic.
I must study this further and I encourage you all to study this topic further. I have a debate book that is on this topic that I must read. Let me add this:
If you remember, Jesus said that narrow is the gate to heaven and wide is the gate to hell. Isn't this kind of the same concept-just like patience, goodness, faithfulness, love, self-control, gentleness, etc? We all know that few people have patience, that few are good, that few are faithful, that few love (truly love), that few have self-control that few are gentle, etc.
Thank you for the coments and I'll keep a close watch on this blog as seeing how controversial it is. May God bless you all!
In Christ,
Robert |
|
|
| May 29, 2007 |
|
|
|
svtofLord,
I'm not sure I understand on what you are trying to say about point 4. And for the statement about mechanical instruments, I'm going to answer that with a simple statement, there were no mechanical instruments,( if by mechanical you mean electric), in the Bible. I also dont understant what the concept of the narrow gate with mechanical instruments have to do with each other. If you could clear that out I would be glad to see what you are trying to say. Thanks... |
|
|
| May 31, 2007 |
|
|
|
The fourth point is not my point, but it is a point in some other arguments-not mine. I don't understand some of the arguments nor frankly, I don't use that argument. No, I don't mean electric, I meant worldly-materialistic, etc-instruments. K....You know how few people ever truly love God and ever serve Him, etc and those are the people who will go to heaven so it's similar...few (I only know that most of the churches of Christ do this) churches today don't use mechanical instruments, they sing acappella. If you can show me a single encouragement, command, or example (besides Revelations on the example) in the New Testament, then, I will delete this blog and remake the sermon but until then, this is staying where it is at.
By the way, God did not make this a "gray" area. We have to interpret it. I think that it was humans that made it gray. We continually changed the meanings of most of the words and haven't been keeping track of what meanings of certain words applied during a certain time period; therefore, making this fairly unclear, but clear enough to decide whether or not to use instruments in worship.
I agree that there are no "gray" areas in the Word of God but the Bible is a different story because I believe that some are false which is why I suggest (something that I'm going to do as well) to build up your own library of Bible versions and for you to decide your faith based on all of them. Decide which ones you trust and the ones you distrust. |
|
|
| May 31, 2007 |
|
|
|
If it is not okay to use any instrument in worship...when is it ok to use an instrument?
Also, could you explain what you mean by worldly imstruments? |
|
|
| May 31, 2007 |
|
|
|
Again, I have never said that instruments in worship is a sin! Secondly, do you not understand worldly instruments. Instruments of this world is what I meant. Something that is man-made.
Also, I've found this on a FaceBook group:
"What Is The Instrumental Music Controversy"
For more than a century the advocates of the use of instrumental music in Christian worship have contended that one of the stronger arguments in defense of that practice is to be found in the Greek word psallo. This term, found only five times in the New Testament, is rendered by the English terms “sing” (Rom. 15:9; 1 Cor. 14:15; Jas. 5:13), and “make melody” (Eph. 5:19).
It has been alleged, however, that psallo embraces the use of a mechanical instrument. In classical Greek the word meant “to strike,” as, for instance, “striking” the strings of a harp. And so, it is claimed, this concept is transferred into the NT.
The History of Psallo
Words have histories, and linguistic history often reveals that terms are altered in their meanings as they pass through the centuries. So it was with psallo.
The history of the Greek language extends back about fifteen centuries before Christ. The era called the “classical” period was from around 900 B.C. (the time of Homer) to the conquests of Alexander the Great (c. 330 B.C.). During this time psallo carried the basic sense of “to touch sharply, to move by touching, to pull, twitch” (Liddell, p. 1841).
Aeschylus (525-456 B.C.), the Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” (Persae, p. 1062). Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring (Bacchae, p. 784). Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine, 6.103). Finally, in Plutarch the verb also could convey the sense of “plucking” the strings of an instrument (Pericles 1.6).
Surely it is obvious that in these various passages the object of what is “touched” was supplied by the context.
Scholars are aware, however, that languages change with time. In 1952, F.F. Bruce wrote: “Words are not static things. They change their meaning with the passage of time” (Vine, 1997, p. vi). This concept must be understood if one is to arrive at the meaning of psallo as used in the NT.
The Septuagint (LXX) is a Greek translation of the Old Testament that dates from the 3rd century B.C. In this production, psallo is used to represent three different Hebrew words. The term may be used to denote simply the playing of an instrument (1 Sam. 16:16). It may bear the sense of singing, accompanied by an instrument (as certain contexts reveal – cf. Psa. 27:6; 98:5 – Eng. versions). Or, the word may refer to vocal music alone (cf. Psa. 135:3; 138:1; 146:2).
After a detailed consideration of the use of psallo in the Greek OT, Ferguson affirms that “what is clear is that an instrument did not inhere in the word psallo in the Septuagint” (p. 7 – emp. orig.). He contends, in fact, that the “preponderance of occurrences” of psallo in the LXX refer simply to “vocal music.”
In a study of the transitional uses of psallo across the years, one thing becomes apparent. The task of the conscientious Bible student must be to determine how the verb is used in the New Testament. This is the only relevant issue.
Incidentally, if one is going to quote the classical usage of psallo, or that conveyed in the LXX (as defenders of instrumental music commonly do), then he could well argue for the playing of instruments as a pure act of worship – with no singing at all – because that sense is clearly employed at times in those bodies of literature.
Language Authorities
J.H. Thayer (1828-1901) was Professor of New Testament Criticism and Interpretation at the Divinity School of Harvard University. He also served on the revision committee that produced the American Standard Version of the New Testament.
In 1885 A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament was published, which reflected Thayer’s translation, revision, and enlargement of an earlier work involving the labors of C.G. Wilke and C.L.W. Grimm. In its day, Thayer’s work was the finest lexicon available, and still is of considerable value.
In discussing psallo, after commenting upon the word’s use in classical Greek, and in the Septuagint, he notes that “in the N.T. [psallo signifies] to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song. . . ” (p. 675).
The first edition of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words was issued in 1940 in four volumes. In 1952 a one-volume edition was published. F.F. Bruce, Head of the Department of Biblical History and Literature at the University of Sheffield, wrote the Foreword for that production. Therein, Prof. Bruce praised Vine’s work. He stated that the “Greek scholarship was wide, accurate and up-to-date.” He noted that the author had a “thorough mastery of the classical idiom,” a “close acquaintance with the Hellenistic vernacular,” and an awareness of the influence of the Septuagint upon the New Testament.
In his popular work, Vine, in commenting upon psallo (under “Melody”), notes the classical sense, the Septuagint usage, and then says: ”... in the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise” (1997, p. 730).
In another book, Vine explained the matter more fully.
“The word psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, or to sing with the accompaniment of a harp. Later, however, and in the New Testament, it came to signify simply to praise without the accompaniment of an instrument” (1951, p. 191 – emp. added).
In 1964. the prestigious Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (edited by Kittel, Friedrich, and Bromiley) issued from the press. The article which dealt with psallo was written by Gerhard Delling. Relative to Ephesians 5:19, Delling contended that the literal use of psallo, as “found in the LXX, is now employed figuratively” (Kittel, et al., p. 499).
In an abridgement of this work, published in 1985, Bromiley expressed it this way: ”. . . psallontes does not now denote literally playing on a stringed instrument” (p. 1226).
In the revised edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, David Howard of Bethel Theological Seminary, commented upon psallo.
“Psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument; in the LXX it generally translates zimmer and ngn. In the NT it refers to singing God’s praises (not necessarily accompanied by strings)” (p. 314).
In the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Balz and Schneider write: “In the NT [psallo] always refers to a song of praise to God” (p. 495).
In his popular work, Word Meanings in the New Testament, Ralph Earle comments on psallo in Ephesians 5:19.
”’Making melody’ is one word in Greek, psallontes. The verb psallo meant first to strike the strings of a harp or lyre. Then it meant to ‘strike up a tune.’ Finally it was used in the sense ‘to sing’” (p. 333).
It is important to remember that these men were affiliated with denominational groups that employ instrumental music in their worship. They have no motive for misrepresenting the facts of this issue. Their testimony, therefore, is compelling indeed.
On the other hand, we must acknowledge that a few scholars have set aside the historical evidence, being swayed by their own theological prejudices. They assert that psallo in the New Testament embodies the idea of “playing” a musical instrument. Liddell & Scott, as well as Edward Robinson, in their respective works, listed the term “play” as the significance of psallo in Ephesians 5:19.
The best example of unwarranted lexical liberty in recent times is the Baur-Arndt-Gingrich production. In the first edition (1957), William Arndt and F.W. Gingrich defined psallo as follows: ”. . . in our literature, in accordance with OT usage, sing (to the accompaniment of a harp), sing praise. . . Rom. 15:9. . . Eph. 5:19. . . “
What most did not realize at the time, however, was that the phrase “to the accompaniment of a harp” was not in Baur’s original work. It was added by the subsequent editors. Following the death of Arndt, Frederick Danker joined with Gingrich for yet another revision (2nd Ed.). At the time, Danker apparently was unaware of the “tampering” by Arndt & Gingrich. When he learned of it, he admitted that the earlier editors had made a “mistake” in their rendition. He promised to try to remedy the error in a future revision.
Gingrich later acknowledged that the added phrase was only his interpretation. In the 2nd edition (1979), the phrase was deleted. However, this comment was added—obviously to placate someone.
“Although the NT does not voice opposition to instrumental music, in view of Christian resistance to mystery cults, as well as Pharisaic aversion to musical instruments in worship. . . it is likely that some such sense as make melody is best here [Eph. 5:19]” (p 891; see McCord, pp. 390-96).
One might have hoped for something better in the 3rd edition, over which Danker had control. But such was not to be. The editor initiated a “departure” from earlier formats by offering an “expanded definition” of words. And so the “sing, sing praise” of the 2nd editon becomes “to sing songs of praise, with or without instrumental accompaniment. . . ” in this latest edition.
However, both 2nd and 3rd editions suggest that those who render psallo by the word “play” in Ephesians 5:19 “may be relying too much on the earliest meaning of psallo [i.e., the classical meaning].” And yet, this is precisely what Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker have done. They imported the classical sense into the New Testament, when their lexicon was supposed to define words according to the “New Testament and other early Christian literature” usage.
People need to realize that Greek lexicons are not inspired of God; they can be flawed at times. J.H. Thayer summed-up the issue rather candidly.
“The nature and use of the New Testament writings require that the lexicographer should not be hampered by a too rigid adherence to the rules of scientific lexicography. A student often wants to know not so much the inherent meaning of a word as the particular sense it bears in a given context or discussion. . . [T]he lexicographer often cannot assign a particular New Testament reference to one or another of the acknowledged significations of a word without indicating his exposition of the passage in which the reference occurs. In such a case he is compelled to assume, at least to some extent, the functions of the exegete. . . ” (p. VII).
Some scholars have clearly set aside the true significance of certain words and allowed their theological bias to flavor their definitions. This has happened with baptizo (immerse), when some suggest that “sprinkling” is encompassed in the verb’s meaning. Some theologians manipulate the meaning of the preposition eis (for, unto, in order to obtain) in Acts 2:38 in an effort to avoid the conclusion that immersion in water is essential to salvation. This is a sad but tragic reality within the theological community.
Translations
It must be a matter of some consternation, to those who argue that psallo necessarily includes the instrument, that virtually no standard (committee) translation of the English language (e.g., KJV, ASV, RSV, NEB, NIV, NASB, NKJV, ESV) provides a hint of instrumental music in any of the five texts where the verb is found in the New Testament. This should be dramatic testimony to the fact that the cream of the world’s scholarship has not subscribed to the notion that psallo inheres a mechanical instrument of music.
Post-Apostolic Testimony
In a thorough discussion of the topic, Prof. Everett Ferguson has shown dramatically that the writers of the first several centuries of the post-apostolic period employed psallo simply to denote the idea of “singing,” or else they used the term in its classical sense only metaphorically, e.g., in Ephesians 5:19, plucking the strings of one’s heart in praise to God (pp. 18-27). (Note: In his translation, Hugo McCord rendered this passage as “plucking the strings of your heart,” thus giving the “plucking” a figurative thrust.)
At this point we must add this testimony from McClintock & Strong’s celebrated Cyclopedia:
“The Greeks as well as the Jews were wont to use instruments as accompaniments in their sacred songs. The converts to Christianity accordingly must have been familiar with this mode of singing; yet it is generally believed that the primitive Christians failed to adopt the use of instrumental music in their religious worship. The word psallein, which the apostle uses in Eph. 5:19, has been taken by some critics to indicate that they sang with such accompaniments. . . But if this be the correct inference, it is strange indeed that neither Ambrose. . . nor. . . Basil. . . nor Chrysostom. . . in the noble encomiums which they severally pronounce upon music, make any mention of instrumental music. Basil, indeed, expressly condemns it as ministering only to the depraved passions of men. . . and [he] must have been led to this condemnation because some had gone astray and borrowed this practice from the heathen. . . The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th or 6th centuries. . . ” (p. 759).
An Ad Hominem Observation
An ad hominem (“to the man”) argument is designed to show the fallacy of an illogical position. It appeals to an erroneous proposition being defended, and demonstrates that, if followed to its logical conclusion, the idea manifests an unreasonable viewpoint. That this is a valid method of dealing with error is evidenced by the fact that Jesus himself occasionally employed it to expose false teaching (cf. Mt. 12:27). There is certainly a legitimate usage of this type of argument in the music controversy.
Several writers, who have argued the psallo position, have contended that an instrument of music is unavoidably inherent within the term. O.E. Payne alleged that if the Christian fails to employ the instrument in worship, he “cannot conform to the divine injunction to psallein” (p. 172). Others (e.g., Dwaine Dunning and Tom Burgess) have argued similarly (see Bales, pp. 97ff).
In view of this, let us consider Ephesians 5:19, where the inspired apostle commands the saints in Ephesus to practice “speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody [psallontes] with your heart to the Lord.”
If the participle psallontes retains a literal, classical sense (to pluck), and therefore inheres the instrument, then the following conclusions necessarily result.
This command cannot be obeyed without the employment of the instrument.
Since each Christian is under the obligation to psallo, each person must play an instrument.
The instrument must be one capable of being “plucked” (e.g., the harp), which would eliminate organs, pianos, trumpets, etc.
This writer has never encountered an advocate of the use of instruments in worship who will stay with the logical demands of his argument in defense of psallo. That speaks volumes.
Recent History
Perhaps the most telling thing of all in this controversy over instrumental worship is the fact that in the recent history of our exchanges with those of the Independent Christian Church (with whom we’ve had most of our discussions), the psallo argument has been virtually abandoned.
One of the last major debates on instrumental music was between Alan E. Highers (churches of Christ) and Given O. Blakely (Independent Christian Church) in April, 1988. During the course of that encounter, Blakely never attempted to introduce the psallo argument. In fact, he “broke new ground” in that he argued that “authority” for what one does in worship is not even needed; worship is a wholly unregulated activity—a position wholly absurd!
Instrumental music in Christian worship is indefensible.
Interesting Quotes
“Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments of music, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 651).
“There is no record in the NT of the use of instruments in the musical worship of the Christian church” (Pfeiffer, p. 1163).
“Whatever evidence is forthcoming, is to the effect that the early Christians did not use musical instruments” (Smith, p. 1365).
“The foregoing argument [of this book] has proceeded principally by two steps. The first is: Whatsoever, in connection with the public worship of the church, is not commanded by Christ, either expressly or by good and necessary consequence, in his Word is forbidden. The second is: Instrumental music, in connection with the public worship of the church is not so commanded by Christ. The conclusion is: Instrumental music, in connection with the public worship of the church, is forbidden” (John J. Girardeau, Professor, Columbia Theological Seminary (Presbyterian), p. 200).
{ CHECK OUT! www.freewebs.com/logoscampus/
& "The Word On Campus, Discussion Board on- Facebook} I think this will help... |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
I actually read this whole thing and in the end in came up with an answer that is twisted. If christ does not command something, how is is forbidden? If that entire article came up with that, then it is an atricle not to be trusted. Did Jesus ever command us to watch television? Since he never commanded us to watch televisions, according to the writer of this article, John J. Giradeau, then it is forbidden to use it.
But Jesus never said we couldn't watch television because no one knew what television was. And if Jesus was alive today and could see what television has done, from blessing people with preachers on the TV, to messing them up with things that shouldnt be watched, do you think he would command against it? I dont think so...I personaly think he would warn people about what they do on it though. It is the same with instruments. You can use it to play for God's glory and to bless other people, or you can use it to worldy ways such a music that has things that should never be said.
As I have said before, if Jesus never commanded for it or against it, and if the old testament pushed the use of instruments in worship, Then it can't be forbidden. |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
This is the old argument that if something is not specifically commanded in the New Testament it is assumed to NOT be OK to do. I call it the reductionist mode. I've read several sites that attribute homosexuality, abortion and every other possible sin to the use of instruments in the church (specifically on Sunday) Ironically, many of these same churches use instruments with their youth groups on Wednesday nights to get the youth into their churches (I am not lying, my parents are in such a church). I think this also gets into the Heresy of Pelagianism albeit in a back door way. Pelaginists believed in a God of the OT and a God of the NT that were very different. The scriptures plainly speak of a God who is the same. His character has never altered one iota...period. Also, remember ALL scripture Old and New is profitable for correction for instruction in righteousness, for DOCTRINE. I think the no instrument people need to get a whole Bible approach to things or just throw away 39 books. |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
T I conclude with the following: We don’t know what will happen to those who do NOT use instruments in worship; therefore, why not use them?-especially if there is no command in the New Covenant specifically urging us not to use them. There were some things given by the church NOT to be involved with after the council at Jerusalem instrumental worship was not one of them. If the elders were concerned about the gravity of any of these things it would have been addressed at this time. It wasn't because it wasn't a problem because there was NOT a radical disconnect between the old and new in this regard. To assume so is ludicrous and a trap of the devil, IMHO. After all, they met in the synagogues until they were kicked out. I will use them (instruments) because they are used in examples that we have in scripture concerning worship and praise and the most beautiful examples in scripture of praise DID use them...all of the Psalms.
|
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
And JoshMo is right. In order to stick with your principle, you'd better tear down the church building you attend, go back to family houses, eliminate pulpits, and oh yeah.... nobody can bring a fully completed New Testament. (the scriptures that Jesus read were Isaiah and other Old Testament stuff. The daily readings of the New Testament church, recorded in Acts were not the full New Testament Scriptures either... it had not been cannonized.)  These are great points and I would point out that false prophets such as Micahel Rood and the Moonies have been advocating removal of crosses and steeples and the like already...this is not as far-fetched as you think.. BTW, people that think Michael Rood is some sort of Jewish Prophet better check out his history. He was very high up in the Way International one of the most incidious cults of the last century... |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
| This is an extremely controversial subject, and I give you the star for even broaching it! Our church does use musical instruments. And while I agree, that at times they can be used in sinful ways, if they are used to glorify God, then I don't see how it is wrong to use them.. Acappella singing is beautiful, yet it would be boring to do it all the time. Not to mention, since I am a singer, musical instruments help us stay on key. Again, I think that any use of instruments that is used to glorify God is going to be fine with Him. |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
Of course, Christ and his followers wouldn't mention tv or anything like that but they would mention how to worship God and they don't mention instruments. If you add instruments into worship, you add on to God's commands; therefore, breaking one of His commands in Deut. I can't remember the exact verse. There are other verses that have the same context as that add nor subtract verse. |
|
|
| June 01, 2007 |
|
|
|
| The only ones I can think of are in Deuteronomy (which is in the old covenant) and Revelation (which, according to you, is metaphorical). |
|
|
| June 02, 2007 |
|
|
|
As I stated before All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be ( we have to choose to be like Jesus and walk in his footsteps) perfect throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Here is my prayer for you Bro.....If you are truly seeking the truth in this matter then let the eyes of your understanding be open, let the Light of Gods Holy Word enlighten your mind.
|
|
|
| June 02, 2007 |
|
|
|
The LORD Jesus Christ fulfilled all things in the Law, in the Prophets, and also in the Psalms. To fulfill means to accomplish, to complete, to carry out, to perform and its means to obey. | Luk 24:44 | ¶ | And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Jesus himself obeyed and fulfilled the Psalms! The LORD Jesus Christ obeyed to the last jot and tittle all of Gods commands in the Mosaic Law, in the Prophets, and in the Psalms. Yes!.........it is Gods will for us to become like his only Begotten Son |
and follow in his footsteps. If Jesus fulfilled the Psalms then we know that we too must fulfill the Psalms and worship with what you call mechanical instruments or instruments made with hands! Isnt that awesome Jesus fulfilled all of the Psalms including Psalms 150! God Bless! |
|
|
| June 02, 2007 |
|
|
|
Anthony, I just read Psalm 50, and I give you credit for finding this verse in Luke. Amen and Amen! 150:3 Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! 150:4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! 150:5 Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! 150:6 Let everything that breathes praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!
I think that God takes great pleasure when we make a joyful noise for HIM!!!! And using instruments that He gave us the knowledge to create, only helps to bring loud praises to His Name!!! |
|
|
| June 02, 2007 |
|
|
|
Huh? I don't remeber reading that anywhere. |
|
|
| June 03, 2007 |
|
|
|
The one thing that is being brought up is that adding to the commandment is sin.
I have said this 3 times already... If the "Old Covenant" says we should do it, and Christ doesn't mention instruments, then its is left as an ok to use instruments. |
|
|
| June 09, 2007 |
|
|
|
Ok. Well, you know how we aren't supposed to use animals as offerings anymore? Why don't you explain that. I don't think the book of Romans (i think that's the book) is a list of do's and don't's. I think that there is more behind it all. I think that it showed the dividing line between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I think that this kind of revolves around Christ's death, burriel and resurection. This makes more sense because it revolves around Christ like everything else in the Bible (though sometimes that's harder to find than other places). Now then, we could talk about instruments all day long and never get anywhere with this and giving people knowledge of the Bible (without a single possibility of someone getting saved) or we could preach instead of debate on something like this. Yes, it may be a hot topic, but I think that we need to talk about God's love more than this topic right now. May God bless you! In Christ, Robert |
|
|
| June 09, 2007 |
|
|
|
Robert,
I agree with your last comment on love. As I was reading this blog, it caught my attention because I was a Christian during the time I was also a music major, I had one recuring thought, "where is grace in this process." Firstly, I think that Peter's example of food not being unclean, and the subseqent act of his going to the gentiles, sets out an example of Christs perspective on making things like instrumental vs. non instrumental a new law. I think there may be a better way to look at this area. If your preference is not to use instruments, then don't use them. To try to create a theology to back up the issue already tells me that your knocking on the wrong door, this is another area where the church cannot come to a "theological" conclusion. That doesn't mean you can't take a stand, it just means that any conclusion you come to is going to be based on a variety of conflicting interpretations of tradition and scripture. Sometimes it's just better to say, let's try this for us, and leave it at that. |
|
|
| June 09, 2007 |
|
|
|
Well, the thing is, in the churches of Christ today, we constantly (and have always since the beginning of the 1900's) been debating on this. The way we worship is so important because we have to ask the question on whether or not this or this or this please God. That's why it's controversial when it comes to this. The New Covenant doesn't mention instruments which we are under but the Old does but we aren't under it and then there are all these verses that create a great deal of unnecessary arguments. That's why I made this so there could be some common ground for those who take neither side on this issue.
|
|
|
| June 09, 2007 |
|
|
|
Robert,
I applaud you for having the strength to follow your conscience and to tell the community about the process by which you are discerning. I believe the Lord is speaking to your heart, and you should be obedient. Something we must all keep in mind is, for some people something might be wrong (though NOT explicitly stated in scripture) while for others it is ok. Romans 14 is case in point. Paul's conclusion:
14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.
He's speaking about food, but same applies elsewhere in life. God calls some to give up TV, driving cars, drinking beer, betting, etc., whereas for others it is ok.
Overall I've appreciated the tone of this blog, despite the strong opposing convictions. ~mike |
|
|
| June 10, 2007 |
|
|
|
Robert,
I'm going to agree with Mike here, congratulations on wrestling. Just a bit of history on myself will tell you why this is an area I also have had to consider. i was part of a Jesus People Church. We started in the mid 70's and were involved in music. As a Church we were on John Michael Talbot's album, The Lord's Supper. Our music was being used by churches all over the world. During the nexy 20 years we moved through the house church movement, shepherding, charismatic, and then fulll steam into what I call,"neo-Orthodoxy". In our foray into Orthodoxy we found that they were also looking for the "perfect worship service". That one form that was being done in the heavenlies. Theirs was called liturgy, and was most often based on one fo the early liturgical forms from the first few centuries of the church. They also didn't believe in instruments, but they also went a step farther and limited each part of the liturgy to a specific style and scale musically. I could never but into the thinking and eventually moved on after 25 years of investment. I can also tell you that evven though it wasn't a place I could stay, there were times when the worship was like being in the heavenlies.
Your quest for pleasing God is the right and only true response to all worship. If you stay this course, I truely hope to get into the heavenlies and hear how your love for the Father is being expressed in the midst of all the other ways He's allowed worship to be recieved.
Robert I pray that God will not only bless you, but give you insight into the depth of His love , and how to worship Him from the depths of your being! |
|
|
| June 10, 2007 |
|
|
|
Thanks for the encouragement. I just want to remind those who have instruments at their church and who don't listen to the words being sung: instruments are a distraction for many and if that is the only reason why you go to a certain church-not because of the love of God-then you are probably distracted. If instruments are the only reason you became a Christian, then you are distracted. If you listen only to the music (as entertainment) and don't listen to what God is saying through the songs, you are distracted and I ask that you will go to an acappella church in fear of displeasing God and feeling the wrath of God. In the end, everything will be made right and Christ will come as judge and he will save his church and condemn all others with no mercy to the many people who will be damned. (Yes, I'm meant to say that last word. To damn someone is to send them to hell. Only Christ has that power and he will damn those who aren't saved. So I'm not saying a cussword-I'm using it in context.)
|
|
|
| June 14, 2007 |
|
|
|
I'm going to stop posting in this blog because I do not see the point in it anymore. I find it pretty amazing that anyone would base there doctrine on, “If Christ didn’t command it, its sin." If that is so then there should be no more pulpits, or pews, or crosses, because Christ never commanded it. The one thing I have said this entire time is, If it says in the old testament to do it, and Christ never said anything about it, then it there was no need to do anything about it, the old testament had it clear enough. And if we were to go by the "Christ commands only" doctrine, then what is the point of all of the other things that the Old Testament commanded that Christ never touched? So in my opinion, if you are putting your belief system on the uses of mechanical instruments, you might be sinning because, the Old Testament says you should use instruments in worship. I am saddened that some people will never receive the blessing of worship with instruments, because the blessing of the words and the music is so amazing.... it’s too much to miss out.
God bless |
|
|
| June 14, 2007 |
|
|
|
"I am saddened that some people will never receive the blessing of worship with instruments," Are you saying that this entertains you? Also, we do use our hearts in our worship-that is our instrument for it says in Ephesians 5:19: Sing and make music in your heart. We don't use mechanical-worldly, manmade- instruments. That's all I've been trying to say through this whole thing. Thanks for reading my blog and the comments though. I really enjoyed the debate. May God bless you! In Christ, Robert |
|
|
| June 14, 2007 |
|
|
|
Robert,
I admire your convictions. What it would be like if we were all able to be that consistant. This whole discussion fascinates me because my ministry started as a worship minister. I'm not much for debating someone on the subject. You are very clear in your statements that this is your true belief. (Just the same I believe that worship can include instruments and other forms. My study tells me that the biggest concern is the heart, not the method. That's my side.)
I will say this, though, in reference to any future discussions. Above you have the response:
"Rita, the book of Revelations is more metaphorical than literal. And just because the angels in heaven have the authority to use instruments, doesn't mean we do have the authority to use instruments in worship here on earth."
I have to say that I'm a bit taken back by that statement. Your arguments and conclusions throughout have been based on the idea that the Bible is a literal document. In other words, stating that you're not to use mechanical (as you call them) instruments because the bible doesn't give an absolute on something that didn't exist yet leads to the implication that you believe that what we read should and must be taken literally. That being the case I am surprised that you then refer to the book of Revelation as metaphor so quickly.
I'm not arguing whether it is or not. I do find, though, that if you are going to base your beliefs on something so strongly that it doesn't strengthen the argument to choose what should be an absolute and what shouldn't. I've been in the same basic spot that you are now with my discussions. At one time everything for me was "literal or nothing". I was not able to sustain that, though, because I found situations like you refer to with Revelation that I saw as metaphor and eventually found that I could not state "absolute" in one book but "literary license" in another. I state this just so you might look at it and reflect.
One thing I will say is that you seem heartfelt about your worship. Whether that be with instrumental accompaniment or if you sing accapella your whole life always make your heart what God hears.
Take care,
Andy |
|
|
| June 15, 2007 |
|
|
|
Thanks for the comment Andy!
It's okay, Rita. We all can sound a little harsh sometimes.
This is for everyone: Out of curiousity, how many of you have cried while singing a song with worldly instruments? How many of you listen to the words of the song?
If you haven't, then it is a distraction as I said before. I was brought to near tears once with a cappella singing when we sang How Deep the Father's Love For Us.
Just figured, I'd add that.
Thanks for everything! May God bless you all!
In Him,
Robert |
|
|
Follow this blog
