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| Arguments Against "Once Saved Always Saved" |
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I'm not trying to cause trouble here. I promise. I would just like to take a look - Biblically - at this subject. If we are to take the warnings of the Bible seriously, we must know the consequence we are being warned of. I know there are different interpretations, but I wanted to briefly give my side of the story.
I often hear that there is no way that you can be saved and then not be saved. I hear from the Once Saved Always Saved crowd that the Bible mentions nowhere that it's possible to lose your salvation. I've debated this subject with some in other blogs.
I thought I'd start the dialogue - if anyone wanted to defend their position.
I strongly believe that salvation IS conditional, and I believe that my position can be defended against the strongest agruments against it.
Now I'm going to level some of my strongest arguments againsts Once Saved Always Saved.
If you want to have a discussion on the subject - you don't have to pick apart every argument I put forth (although you can if you wish).
I'll not go through this in any sort of topical order. I'll just present some scriptures that seem to indicate salvation can be forfeited....
First
Matt 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Jesus is telling his disciples that, who happen to be in the grace of God as they follow Christ, that if they refuse to forgive others, God would not forgive them.
If you aren't forgiven, you aren't under grace.
It's quite simple really - they were under grace and Jesus warns them of a situation which would leave them in a state where they would not be under grace.
Matt 18:23-35
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
The above parable illustrates Jesus point in Matthew. We are forgiven of so much. An incredible amount of sin has been forgiven, that we had no hope of paying the debt for. By Jesus Christ - our sins are forgiven. But if we turn on another and will not forgive, we will relinquish the forgiveness we have received.
If you take this parable to mean anything else - I'd be interested to hear your interpretation. Keep in mind, the forgiveness of the debt was reversed. If the forgiveness of your debt is reversed, the payment of it will not simply be troubles and trials on earth (all go through that) - it will be a different thing altogether.
****Paul stated (to Christians in his letter to the Romans) a warning against yielding to a life of sin...
Rom 6:12-16
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If we yield to sin. If we stop following Christ (even if we believe in Him, even if we told him we are sorry for our sin) and yield to sin. We are lost. We are the servants of sin. You are either the follower of the Lord or the follower of sin. Jesus said "Ye cannot serve two masters" - if you are following Christ - you have placed yourself in the grace of God. If you desert that - you are in line for eternal damnation.
Next - the writer of Hebrews gives a warning to ........CHRISTIANS. Not to sinners, but Christians. It should be intrinsically obvious that he is...
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
First, he calls them "brethren" - Then in verse 12 he tells them "take heed......lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the Living God"
* I would love to see someone depart from something they've never been attached to, but I've never seen it yet. I have never departed from Hawaii, because I've never been to Hawaii. These folks can't DEPART from the Living God, if they were never involved with the Living God.
In verse 14 he claims that we are made partakers of Christ "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end! IF is not a long word, but it is the one that jumps out at me. If it said "because" instead of "if" - it would more or less solidify the O.S.A.S. point, but the fact is that it rest on the individual to continue in their confidence in Christ. If you don't - you are no longer in the condition that meets the requirements for His grace.
next........
2 Tim 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
This is in a personal letter to Timothy. Paul quotes a famous (in that time and region) saying. He says that (v 12) if we (the 'we' : at least including Paul and Timothy) deny him - he will deny us.
That's pretty plain and simple to me. If you deny the Lord, you will be denied.
The next verse (often used by the advocates of OSAS as they ignore the previous verse) doesn't state that Jesus will accept you no matter what. It says he cannot deny himself. He will do what He's promised or warned no matter what. Our faithfulness or unfaithfulness will not affect his at all.
Verse 13 cannot mean that no matter what we are saved. If it did it would be a direct contradiction to the previous verse and be nothing but confusion.
I think Jesus made it clear in John 15 that we can abide (or remain) in him or we may not remain in him....
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. How can you expect to be a Christian while not remaining in Christ. And if it were impossible NOT to remain in Christ, why does he even exhort us to "abide" in Him?
And lastly.....
tell me A, B, or C.....how do I describe these people mentioned in 2 Peter....
2 Pet 2:19-21
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
A - sinners who were never saved and yet.......had one "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" who had to "once again" be "entangled therein""?
or are they
B - Currently Christians who's "latter end is worse than their first" - and would have been better off "not to have known the way of righteousness" who are described as a "sow returning to her own wallowing in the mire?
C - One time Christians who have returned to their former state of sinfulness and have left their faith in Christ for a life of sinful pleasure and a deathly consequence?
I choose C. I would like to know how either of the other answers can even be sensible.
I strongly believe against the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. I don't bring it up to start an argument (though I love Biblical debate) but to cause us to not brush the warnings of God's Word aside as not eternally relevant. |
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| I would have to agree with Mike. I was always taught that once you are saved...your saved and are a child of God for eternity. Of course none of us are perfect and we will all sin, saved or not. I don't believe that just b/c you sin in one way or another as you mentions your salvation can be taken from you. A lot of people believe it's necisary to be saved more than once...born again christians. I have done it, like I'm sure many others have, however I was also told that was not necissary. Once saved...Always saved. All you need to do is ask for forgiveness and have the Lord help you to live your life to be a better christian, not get saved again and start over. To make a long story short, I don't agree with your salvation being taken away. Like Mike said again, just BELIEVE, have FAITH and live your life how GOD would want you too. |
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I honestly do respect your decision to believe how you want to, but I think one thing we'll all agree on is that our beliefs should be grounded in Scripture. It's fine to believe that once you're saved you always are, but I've taken the time to point out a few places in scripture that seem to teach otherwise. If you can show me that I'm wrong, I could understand your belief that once you're saved you always are saved. But if your reason for believing it is that it's always what you've been taught, you might want a more solid basis for belief.
Thanks for the comments, guys.
And Mike, I wasn't really trying to beat it in the ground. I know we've all gone round and round with this. The blog you referred to was mostly those of us that believe the way I do defending our belief. I was just wanting to hear a good strong reason to believe differently given the scriptural arguments opposing the imposibility of apostacy.
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Aaron, when I teach my own children about the Gospel of our Lord, I would never think to teach them that a single confession of Jesus as Lord is all that is needed, thereby allowing them to live the remainder of their lives in the security that all future actions are inconsequential because all can be forgiven. Rather, I tell them to hold fast, to cling to Jesus as if their eternal life depended on it, to grow closer to Him each day, to work out their salvation (Phil 2:12) and to make their election sure (2 Pet 1:10).... Not because I think their salvation can be lost, but because the gravity of our eternal situation is simply too great to take anything for granted!! ...And I believe this point of view was the motivation for much NT writing on the subject of salvation.
BTW, you may want to reread Josh's blog, I thought both sides were thoroughly presented. ~mike |
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| Good points, Mike! Again, my defense of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security can be found in the prior blogs on this subject as well. The main "condition" is that you have to BELIEVE! The rest depends on God and His ability to keep His covenant... at which He is more than able to do! |
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Here's the thing. These arguments I've posted here have gone for the most part unanswered. I would just like to hear your arguments defended. I've seen some defenses to a couple of these arguments, but I've hardly seen anyone that believes in Once Saved Always Saved stand up to these.
I don't just bypass arguments and say "I believe what I believe because I simply believe it" - If you're right in what you say, then you will be able to squash my logic. I've yet to see it. |
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Aaron-
I, along with others, addressed nearly all of your points in the other blogs. I used scriptures in their contexts to make my points. I don't have the time to beat s dead horse... you made your points as well. |
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| I think this argument has been done and done over but I do have to say something. I've seen the point on if you "believe", so...what happeneds when you stop believing? |
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I have to agree with The WYATT here. Eternal Security, and that's what is being talked about, is about God's Persistance toward us. Also, I've never understood how one could be born again and then "unborn" again. Can you explain that, maestro, trouble causer..LOL. |
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A friend once told me that it was an everyday choice, not just a one time thing
You had to choose to give your life to God, sometimes multiple times a day |
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Matt. 614-15 is not speaking only to Jesus' disciples (see chapter 7:28-29). He is telling them not to be a hypocrite like the pharisees who say one thing and do another.
Matt. 18:25-35 Does not say we will lose our salvation. It says we will be tortured until we don't owe anymore. It doesn't say we will be cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.
For the passage from Romans, I submit another passage from Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you can lose your salvation then this verse ought to really scare you
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. I think this means something different than you probably do and would be glad to explain myself later :)
I would have a similar explanation of the 2 Peter passage.
6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
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8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Kurt |
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May 30, 2007 at 6:55pm |
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Belief. Faith. Two subtly different things. I can belive that there is a Loch Ness monster, hypothetically speaking of course, but to have FAITH in it is another issue. For my part I agree with Aaron on this subject. As long as we are alive we are neither above damnation nor below salvation. To belive that you will go to Heaven just because you are a Christian is an ignorance I cannot abide by. Those who belive such set themselves up for a fall. My argument against this misconception is usually thus: Remember that even the Devil itself was once, before it became the Devil, an angel of the Lord. In fact it was the highest ranking of all of God's angels and closest to God, but through pride, arrogance, and complacency that most holy of angels became the most vile of demons, the self-proclaimed "Prince of Darkness". Therefore I say to you: if even the highest ranking of God's angels, who does not have free will, can fall from God's grace and enter into Hell what, therefore, does that say about us who do have free will? Who can make any decision at any time and are free to change who and what we are as we see fit? Truth be told, I don't think anyone here is as close or as loyal to God as one of His angels. So, if anyone gets any ideas that they're in some kind of "safety zone" for spiritual salvation then I suggest you watch yourselves with sober judgement and hold yourselves accountable for your own actions. Actually, everyone should do that, not just the people who are complacent. The complacent ones should pull their heads out of their rear ends before they get blind sided by a world of trouble. As kind of a follow up note to my argument; if you belive in Heaven and Hell then you better not act as though The Fall, or the Rebellion, or whatever you want to call it is just a myth or a fairy tale. To me, it is a part of history. Not human history, but history none the less. And as with all events in history there is much to be learned from it... |
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It doesn't make any sense that fallen angels would be able to fall unless they had free will. Also, Jesus didn't die to save the angels...He died to save His people from their sin. Who are we to undo what He has done?
As far as us being able to change who and what we are as we see fit...I think you need to clarify. I cannot decide tomorrow that I am an astronaut when I most definitely will not be. That kind of thought doesn't change me, it just makes me delusional.
It is also not correct to assume that because someone doesn't agree with your particular viewpoint on this that they are complacent. That is an extreme generalization. I could say that all people who believe that they can lose their salvation live in constant fear that they will forget to ask forgivness for something, although I am sure that is not true.
Don't assume that the other side of the argument is stupid. |
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The question is that who secures or has secured our salvation. The answer is Jesus. God has his elect. Not only does God elect AND his election is SURE. IOW, it is God's choice NOT ours. No one has the power to initially choose salvation. We are totally lost in sin and not even able to seek him. We are lost sheep. Once the shepherd secures us we are secure. The devil can not rip us out of God's hand AND Christ intercedes for us. Is "our will" or the devil stronger then, than the intercession of Jesus and the election of God? No, if that is so, then God is not sovereign but He IS. So, can we fall from salvation, clearly not if we are the elect, IOW, NOT if we are saved! No way. This is a modern concept but goes against historic Baptist, Congregational, Episcopalian, Lutheran and Reformed Creeds of ages past to name a few. |
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dmmeans-
to say that Judas was "saved" then lost is a misunderstanding of Judas' role in being included in the 12. Listen to Jesus' words concerning Judas...
John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 17:9-12 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[b] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Your assertion that Judas was saved - then lost - is incorrect. Jesus' matter-of-fact statement on Judas being "a devil" is evidence that Judas was NEVER saved.
recon77-
great points! |
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Kurt |
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May 30, 2007 at 9:04pm |
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Free will is not simply the ability to make choices. If that were the case then all sentient beings would have free will. The true nature of free will is something that gets into the realm of an entity's true nature. Fallen angels live in constant denial of their true nature, bending all of their will and effort into being the exact opposite of what God made them to be. Humans on the other hand can change their true nature as they see fit. Although I made it sound easier than it is don't get me wrong, real change is never an easy process, nor does it happen quickly without the influence of a seriously traumatizing event. But I have seen people truely change from the inside out. Point of order though. I did not say a DA** thing about undoing what God has done! I can understand your misinterpretation of what I have said, but do NOT put words in my mouth! You may not have meant to, but be careful to look at what the I'm intending to say and not just what you would mean if it was you who used those words. I bring up the example of Satan's fall from grace as a counter point to the human condition. To show that even entities that are created in grace can fall from it. I'm not talking about Jesus dying for their sins. He died to bring us into grace. Angels were created in grace, so they are already there. If they who cannot change their true nature, who are created in grace can fall from it, how much more precarious is our situation? We who are born into sin, who must be brought into grace? Furthermore, I am not assuming that O.S.A.S. philosophy is ignorant. I'm basing that assessment on observation. Too many people get it into their heads that good and evil are people, substances, or things that can be harmed or destroyed. As though good and evil are things that are created to begin with. Truth be told, and this is another lesson to be learned from the Fall, not even the Opposer is evil itself, but rather a fanatic of it (i.e. it decided to do what it did, which, I don't know about you, but in my mind that makes it an even more nasty SOB than if it was created to be evil). In reality good and evil are choices, decisions, intentions, or characteristics thereof. So, many people whom I have seen that adopt the O.S.A.S. jargin tend to get it into their heads that they are the "good guys" and they use that to justify so many wrongdoings that they perpetrate against other people. As if they are "good" and therefore they can get away with being cruel to people that they label as "bad". They son't even really look at who the person is inside, they just whip up some good ol' persecution. Then they act as if it was okay that they treated another human with cruelty (let alone the fact that it is usually unjustified cruelty) because they are "saved". I mean this even gets into the whole Christian cliq phenomenon. If you're not like that and you adopt the O.S.A.S. philosophy then I'm sorry for getting onto you for something that you're not guilty of (intrinsic guilt, not the subjective guilty feeling). You're right, I did make an extreme generalization. I apologize. And that goes to all others who adopt that philosophy and don't rationalize or excuse your wrongdoings just because you're "saved". What I'm going on about is not an absolute truth, but it is something I observe all too frequently. And anyone can disagree with me if they so chose, but the whole "I'm saved so it's okay if I act all stuck up, holier than thou, look down my nose at other people who aren't 'saved', and treat other 'non-saved' people with disrespect, cruelty, indecency, and sometimes outright hostility" attitude IS ignorant, and it IS wrong/sinful! And even if someone else is living in sin it does not give you the right to commit sins of cruelty and injustice towards them. Two wrongs don't make a right. God does NOT call you to sin against your neighbor. Where in the Bible does it say, "Vengance is MINE sayeth the Lord"? Does that mean that you should accept another person's sin? No. But your rights end where other people's rights begin. My right to swing my fist ends where your face begins, and that's where your right to defend yourself begins. Metaphorically speaking. If you don't like a person because they really are living a sinful life then find a non-sinful way to deal with it, but don't react with anger, beligerance, and bull-headed ignorance, or you WILL stumble and you WILL be in danger of falling from grace and ending up in the same boat as them. When you become obsessed with the enemy you will become the enemy, proverbially speaking of course. And don't get me wrong, I have just as many qualms about the people who sychophantically worship God. You know what I'm talking about. Me personally I neither fear nor focus on Hell, nor do I kiss God's butt in the hopes that He'll put me on the gravy train for the rest of eternity. That's not love. I worship God because I love God and not because of the fear of punishment or the hope of a reward. If my Master in Heaven would condemn me to Hell then I would apologize for the damage I have done, charge the gates of the damned, and try to beat down as many demons as I could before they took me down (yeah I know it sounds preposterous, but understand that I've done alot of "resisting the enemy" if you know what I mean, so when faced with a threat I stick to my guns). If the Lord should welcome me into His kindgom then I would gladly enter and rejoice in His name. Either way, it's Christ's decision, not mine. Such is my love for my Lord that I will accept whatever decision He makes at my judgement, and I will live life being a righteous person simply for the sake of being a righteous person and not because I'm brown-nosing. I can't STAND it when I find someone brown-nosing! I mean, they don't really love God, they just try to adhere so freaking tightly to this cookie cutter mold of what they think a Christian is supposed to be because they are so afraid of being damned if they do something wrong that they actually try to live a perfect textbook life! Either that or the people who just want their "crown", they don't really care about anyone else. They just want to recive glory in God's kingdom so they step on everyone around them and hypocritically lambaste people for their sins as though they themselves are sinless (once again the whole good guy-bad guy mentality). It's like these people wouldn't praise God without an alterior motive. My problem with it is thus: When you try to risk nothing you risk losing everything by default. I mean, the Bible makes it clear that you should love God and other people selflessly. Selfish worship isn't love, it's brown-nosing. |
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Kurt |
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May 30, 2007 at 9:11pm |
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| Oh and one last thing that I forgot to add to my argument. The whole motivation behind my shpiel is, and I can't remember the book, chapter, and verse for this quote, "By the fruits of their labors ye shall know them". That is the part that REALLY cheeses me off. If not for that, then I would have nothing to say. |
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Kurt |
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May 30, 2007 at 9:40pm |
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recon77, as a counter argument to what you are saying I would like to offer 2 counter points. 1)Once again, "By the fruits of their labors ye shall know them". The idea that you have thrown out on the table, in my own observation of people's behaviors, generally fosters attitudes of hoplessness and defeatism when people accept that idea. Not ALL people who accept that idea, just most. I know, it doesn't inspire hoplessness if you believe that you're one of the elect. But you do realize that you are asking quite a few people to accept that they are condemned to eternal torment and suffering no matter what they do? Think for a minute why that idea doesn't fly very far with most people. I know if I believed that nothing I did really mattered then I would just sit on my parent's couch watching TV, playing video games, and eating potato chips for the rest of my life because nothing really matters, it's all going to happen the way it's going to happen and the universe can get along just fine without me. But because I know that for every reaction there is an equal yet opposite reaction, because I logically know that my thoughts control my actions and that my actions can and have made changes in the world around me that I am not just an automaton robot whose every twitch ,move, and thought is micromanaged by someone else. And that inspires me to evoke more changes. Of course you could rationalize that argument to fit into your argument. So I have a second one that I KNOW you aren't going to agree with, and will throw right out the window. But it's the way I view things so I'm throwing it out there. 2) God loves his children too much to force them to make the right decisions, but by the same tolkien He also loves those who make the right decisions too much to leave them defenseless. If God were to control every single twitch, movement, and brainwave of every single little thing that is capable of acting autonomously then that wouldn't be love, that would be obsessive-compulsive micro managing, which is completely selfish. Whether that's the way things are may or not be true, but that's the way I view it. And on that note I'd love to drop a rather apropos proverb, "The eyes with which you see God are the eyes with which God sees you." |
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Kurt |
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May 30, 2007 at 9:57pm |
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| Oh, and if it sounds like I'm contradicting myself I would like to point out that there is a difference in believing that whether you go to Heaven or Hell is completely God's decision, and believing that your every move and thought is remote controlled by a higher being. |
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Kurt-
you seem a bit "t'd-off" at the church and the world as well.... you sound like you're sick 'n tired of being sick 'n tired... your rants are a bit confusing as well... ?????????????????????????????? |
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Thank you to those that attempted to respond to the reasons I disagree with "Once Saved Always Saved"
I'll now try to respond as best as I can to your comments.
Zach and Jessica Snow said
Matt. 614-15 is not speaking only to Jesus' disciples (see chapter 7:28-29). He is telling them not to be a hypocrite like the pharisees who say one thing and do another.
I never claimed that he was only speaking to the 12 disciples (if that's what you mean by "Jesus' disciples" - He was talking to a large group, including the 12, his followers and some that were just interested to hear what he had to say.
But I don't see where you answered my conclusion. Jesus said "if we don't forgive others their trespasses, God will not forgive us our trespasses" - and how are you going to heaven being unforgiven?
Matt. 18:25-35 Does not say we will lose our salvation. It says we will be tortured until we don't owe anymore. It doesn't say we will be cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.
No, it doesn't say "we'll be cast into outer darkness" - but it does say that the fellow in the story who at one point was forgiven, because of his unforgiveness had his forgiveness reversed. He was at one point "forgiven" and at a later point "unforgiven" and expected to pay his debt. And the conclusion of the matter is in the final verse.... 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
I still see no reason to believe that we can enter Heaven "unforgiven".
For the passage from Romans, I submit another passage from Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. You have answered the problem you can't explain in the text I submitted by introducing another text. That's not explaining the intent of 6:16, but trying to imply contradiction and confusion....
I'll do my best to tell you what your implication means and then you can see that there is no contradiction as you seem to think there is......
Paul is describing his life apart from the regeneration of the Spirit. He in his own flesh could not live the life he needed to live in order to be a servant of God. When he began to understand the law, he began to understand that the nature to sin against it was more powerful and he could not overcome in his flesh.
But then came Jesus' resurrection power into his life, so that he could overcome his fleshly desires.
He states that if he lives according to the flesh - he will serve the law of sin in verse 25. And to live according to the flesh is death.....
Rom 8:13
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Notice what he says right after what you've quoted....
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(KJV)
There is no condemnation......to those who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH!
Notice verse 2 - Jesus made him free from the law of sin and death. He doesn't say from the punishment, from the law! Just like being in an airplane makes you free from the law of gravity, being in Christ makes you free from the law of sin. Remain in Him and live a life not dominated by sin. Sin will be an odd thing if you are in Christ. Sin will not be your nature if you are in Christ.
If you can lose your salvation then this verse ought to really scare you
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. I think this means something different than you probably do and would be glad to explain myself later :)
This is a difficult verse to explain. I have trouble with it. I would have trouble with it from your point of view as well.
I think if means one of two things. (so far as I can understand it) -
#1 - That if you have been immersed into all the blessings that God intended for his children. You have experienced the best God can offer you and yet you turn from him - you will never turn back to him. You have rejected him as fully as you possibly can. You have been stubbornly adamant about not serving him in the face of all his goodness, promises and warnings.
#2 - That if you are in a backlidden state you cannot find repentance as you are in that state.
(#2 seems to me to make little to no sense admittedly - which is why I tend to think, as far as I can understand, that #1 is a better interpretation)
So - what do you think it means?
I would have a similar explanation of the 2 Peter passage.
What is your explanation of the 2 Peter passage??? I can only see 3 conclusions, and only one sensible one. Please explain further what you mean.
6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. In your first text - you must understand that it is the one's that are believing on Jesus that will never perish. Only those that believe on him. Not those that at one time believe-d on him, but the verb is an active verb.
Look at this verse.........
John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
According to the way you understand present verbs...anyone at the point of time that Jesus said this - that did not believe on him, would never ever believe on him. What he was saying is that anyone that believeth not AT THAT TIME would not see life. They could change their status by believing on Him, and then they would fall into the first category of those that believe on the Son (from clause 1).
So long as I am a believer in Christ and walk in the Spirit (Rom 8:1) then there is no condemnation awaiting me. But if I remove myself from that state and do not "abide in Christ" (John 15:1-6) then I can not expect to receive the promise that was directed to those that believe.
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Also Zach and Jessica Snow said
8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the first part of your argument (which was not articulated into your interpretation of the verse -I can only work on assumptions here)-
God foreknew who would be his child. I don't disagree with that - That's the basis of the whole thing. It starts off with"For whom He did foreknow" - But to foreknow is not to foreordain. He did not pick me to be saved and someone else to be lost.
WHOM HE FOREKNEW - HE PREDESINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.
That isn't predestination regardless of anything at all - that is that those that God knew would be his were preordained to become like Jesus (glorification)
....and so he "CALLED" them..
Are they the only ones that were called?? Evidently not - if so this verse (below) would seem to contradict the erroneous assumption that all that God calls will irresistably come...
Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
For the last part that you underlined - where is our disagreement? I don't think any of those things can separate us from the love of God - or from salvation. I think this great promise is so often used to defend something that it wasn't intended to.
The Lord (through Paul) is writing to the Romans, as well as us, to comfort us. To allow us to understand that there is no one and nothing that is strong enough to wrestle our salvation out of the hand of God. But that salvation is based upon our faith in Christ, and our repentance of our sins....
Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
If we (for lack of a better phrase) "repent from our repentance", and once again walk according to the flesh - we have another promise - or should I say warning...
Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So we can walk away from our salvation. We can choose to no longer follow the Lord. We can walk according to the 'law of the flesh' and receive the wages of sin: death. If we do so, then the promise no longer applies to us because we aren't in the place where we are saved and need to be reassured. We are in the place where we need to come back to the Lord.
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Joel said -
Your assertion that Judas was saved - then lost - is incorrect. Jesus' matter-of-fact statement on Judas being "a devil" is evidence that Judas was NEVER saved.
I can't say for sure that I know if he was or wasn't. But I don't see how Jesus calling him a "devil" means he never was truly following him. I really fail to see your point. If there is a point, it's got some leaky spots.
You used this to prove he was never saved, but it almost seems to me to do the opposite of your intentions...
12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
The only one that was LOST is the son of perdition!?!?! He got LOST? How? If he was never really with the pack to begin with - how could he be lost?
I just don't see a whole lot of evidence for us to examine to see the true state he was in at the beginning of his journey and at the end. You may be right, Joel, I just don't think it's provable. |
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Sally |
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May 31, 2007 at 4:50pm |
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| What is saved?? To me that is when we make to heaven (if we make it) down here on earth it means repent. Something so simple we make it so hard but that is what the devil wants us to be confused and argue with one another. God is not the author of confusion. If i debated like this back and forth I would just ask God to show me someway somehow about anything that may l cause my soul to burn in hell. But is funny out of all of this no one ever mention Acts 2:38 and before any of you say anything about that, pray first even if this is what you were talking about or not.. LOVE YOU ALL ... |
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Our salvation is a state. Grace never fails us. We always have grace made available to us until there is no more breath....then there is no more hope, or fear, whichever the case may be.
The fruition of being saved is ultimately realized in glorification with Christ. But as I am here now, I can say I am saved, because I have placed myself under the conditions that are needful to be in His grace. Should I remove myself from those conditions, my salvation status may change. I am saved as a repentant believer. If I am an unrepentant, former believer, I am not in the same condition I was in.
I honestly don't like to argue just to argue. I like good Christian debates, but for a purpose. I want to convince those that believe once you're saved you're always saved that there may be some warnings that they may be taking too lightly. I think this is a subject of utmost importance. Eternity could rest on how important you make this very subject.....
If you think, "oh well, I don't have to really repent of all my sin. I can keep this one little sin in my life, it's okay, I'm still under his grace" - I am only trying to make you rethink that. I'm not going to tell you that you can't deviate at any point from the thin line of God's will. But I do believe strongly that the Word of God is giving some warnings that people are sugaring down, so that the consequences of disobedience are not so grevious. |
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Sally |
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May 31, 2007 at 5:39pm |
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The bible tells us to repent daily, we all sin daily, so that is repentance, again not the term of being saved, I understand your argument and why you do it, I do not believe in once saved always saved, I don't think if I repent 1 time and then go back out in the world and live a ungodly life then when I die I will go to heaven, that will not happen, I might as well not repent in the first place continue to live a ungodly life, that is crazy, and shame on people that think that way. |
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Aaron-
Your reasoning makes NO sense... Judas played a role that was predestined in prophecy, and Jesus alludes to this in the statement as he calls him the "son of perdition." Show me a "saved" devil in scripture... salvation ONLY applies to mankind. Not angels, animals, or any other creation by the Creator... Show me someone who lost their salvation - and it was a direct reference to the fact that they were saved, then lost out with God - and the scripture specifically states this. Your argument just became weaker with this assertion... |
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| again... we played this out in two prior blogs... both points were expounded upon. You quote, we quote... you make a statement, we counter that statement... this is like a cat chasing its tail... we'll just have to agree to disagree... |
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Sally |
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May 31, 2007 at 6:02pm |
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Oh by the way I loved the simple words of "gearshift" up above. |
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Your reasoning makes NO sense... Judas played a role that was predestined in prophecy, and Jesus alludes to this in the statement as he calls him the "son of perdition." Show me a "saved" devil in scripture... salvation ONLY applies to mankind. Not angels, animals, or any other creation by the Creator... Show me someone who lost their salvation - and it was a direct reference to the fact that they were saved, then lost out with God - and the scripture specifically states this. Your argument just became weaker with this assertion...
Joel,
If you'll read what I said, I didn't claim that Judas definately was saved at any point, I just said your explanation didn't prove that he wasn't. I actually kind of agree with you that he probably never was saved, but I'm not sure.
You claim that he was just simply fulfilling a role in prophecy. Yes, indeed he was, but it did not necessarily have to be him. Jesus chose 12 disciples, guided by God the Father, I'd imagine. And the Father probably knew that Judas would be a good candidate for the role he would play. The Father knew the heart of Judas, and knew that it was hard. If it wasn't - he foreknew it would be.
But when Jesus said - he was a "devil" - at that point - he was. He had been taken control of by a spirit that wanted to see Jesus destroyed. That doesn't mean he was always controlled by that. He didn't say Judas had always been motivated by this 'devil'.
Joel, I know you're a smart guy. I've seen it in your dialogue on here. And the fact that you won't clear up my alleged misconceptions makes it even clearer to me that my belief is rock solid.
I can show you scriptures of those that left their salvation, but you'll just say "they were never saved in the first place" without backing it up. It is only a convenient phrase that fits into your view.
I'll do it anyhow just to appease you, but if you're gonna tell me they were never saved, please do so exegetically.
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
Demas loved the world and John tells us that if any man love the world the love of the Father is not in him (he doesn't say 'it never was in him', only that it is not currently in him)
Matt 24:9-10
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
(KJV)
Jesus warned of those that would be offended (or fall from his first confidence) and betray his brothers.
John 6:66
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
These folks were called 'disciples' - learners of Christ. They turned and walked no more with him. They once walked with him.
1 Tim 5:14-15
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
(KJV)
They turned after Satan. They can't still be Christians and turn after Satan can they?
James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(KJV)
I can't give you the names of many of the unnamed that are spoken of in the Word of God that are said to have turned from Him, or that may turn from Him, but the examples are everywhere.
How can you explain the person that is called a "brother" (v19) that needs conversion. He says if "ANY OF YOU". That's the "brethren"!
If they err from truth and are restored, they are 'saved from death'.
How about the guys that no one wants to talk about. The A, B, C question...
These guys..
2 Pet 2:19-21
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
A - sinners who were never saved and yet.......had one "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" who had to "once again" be "entangled therein""?
or are they
B - Currently Christians who's "latter end is worse than their first" - and would have been better off "not to have known the way of righteousness" who are described as a "sow returning to her own wallowing in the mire?
C - One time Christians who have returned to their former state of sinfulness and have left their faith in Christ for a life of sinful pleasure and a deathly consequence?
I think it's abundantly clear. I don't know how it can be denied that salvation is contingent on continuing to walk in the Spirit (Rom 8:1)
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Kurt |
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May 31, 2007 at 6:34pm |
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"The DOC", is it? Are you good at reading between the lines, or am I that transparent? My arguments may be a bit confusing because I was half asleep at the time that I wrote them. I'm not miffed at the whole world, no. Just a part of it. Nor am I angry with quite everyone in all churches, but that requires an explanation. Understand that I do not speak as one who was a victim of injustice, but rather a perpetrator of it. I am one who has noticed the log in his own eye and I have removed it that I may see clearly. Every grievance I have that I have put forward, and then some, are sins that I committed and see others committing. Let me ask you something. Do you know what it is like to wake up one day and realize that not only have you been committing sins agianst your neighbor in God's name, but you have also accidentaly beaten people screaming away from God with a stick? For a time in my life I was one such ignorant person who believed that I was "saved" and that somehow made me special, or better than other people in such a way that I acted like I had the right to look down on people whom I didn't "think" were saved. Of course back then I didn't "think", I believed I KNEW. Ignorant people just don't realize that they are ignorant, and you can't tell them anything, they just rationalize, justify, and excuse their actions to the Nth degree. When I finally humbled myself (which took some major effort on the side of my family) I realized that I had judged so many people. When I was doing it I didn't think it was judgement, but that was because I had my head up my rear end. "Judge and you will be judged. Condemn and you will be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven." I won't go into a full list of things I did, but suffice to say I came to find out that not only had I convinced people that weren't already Christian that they definitely don't want to be Christian, but I had unitentionally persuaded someone who was already Christian that they didn't want to be Christian anymore! Now don't nobody tell me that their faith was already weak or some crap like that because I KNOW what I did. And belive me it doesn't bear repeating. But, DOC, that is the kind of guilt that I live with. Now I've had plenty of people (especially in church groups) try to tell me not to feel guilty, or that what I was doing was somehow right. But this guilt is the least I deserve and I know that the things I did were wrong. I WILL hold myself accountable for my actions and I WILL try to make right what I have done wrong. There are no prayers, hymns, or sermons that can absolve me of driving people away from Christ. Now you know what I mean by, "If God should chose to send me to Hell then I would apologize for the damage I've done and..." Now here's the worst part of it all. My sins are not unique to me. I have seen them and confronted them time and time again in my life in other Christians. And this is not a remote or isolated thing. I have been around the country and I have seen these elietist attitudes in Christians that I encounter in real life all the time. It's like people aren't proud of God, they're proud of the idea that what they believe is right and everyone else who doesn't believe what they believe, how they believe it, the way they believe it will burn for all eternity. And that somehow gives them the right to treat people who aren't in their "in" groups like a piece of dirt. I try bringing this up to people when I see it happening in real life. I try reminding people of the parable of the Good Samaritan. I try telling them that Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself", and not "Love thy neighbor as thyself-unless they are not in your denomination" nor did he say "Love thy neighbor as thyself-unless they are not Christian." I even try giving a testimony of my account and how I came to realize my own sin. But it never made any difference. They always rationalized, justified, and excused their actions. I don't know, maybe I'm just not good at talking to people. Maybe people will believe what they believe. Perhaps no one can truely change unless they are humble. But whatever the case I don't know what I was thinking by bringing my qualms on this blog. Mr. Disney (if that is in fact your actual last name, no offense), I'm sorry for bringing my excess baggage into your blog. I know you were not looking for people who already agreed with you and that I probably didn't help anything. It was a convenient venu to bring up an issue and I did it rather than making my own bog. Once again, I apologize. To the people defending the O.S.A.S. idea, I don't know you individually which means that I really don't know what you have and haven't done. I'm sorry for automatically assuming that you were like me. Do know, however, that I once believed that "once saved, always saved" and I came closer to damnation than I thought possible. The realization that I was actually judging people and that God condemns those who have the audacity to do so, which is to question His divinity, was a big wakeup call. The first of many. |
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