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Hey Charlie .You know I have to say I have been saved for 29 years and sat in many churches,sad to say they all wanted to "build" their kingdom,as we know the division started in Pauls day when he exhorted them not be like so and so 1Cor 1, when man is in control with his ways and not God's then you will always get division,look at the story when the ark was given a new cart and Uzzah put forth his hand to touch it,what does that represent? well if we put our plans and our ideas forth without God we will have "our own establishments,what we call church. I believe the restoring of the "tabernacle" of David is in part of a restoring of people, man we are in such a mess,WE NEED GOD!!!! and we cannot even see it!! we warm our little
church pews" and "repeat" our sunday traditions,and we put Gods Name on it, God help us!! We need to cry out like David, david is our example of how the church should be , broken and contrite, He needed God!! He ALWAYS had a heart after God He ALWAYS did what God told him to do, We are the "tabernacle" of the dwelling of the Most High, we do not need "buildings" for him to dwell in but He is looking for a "people" Zion to dwell and a people who will move and have their being in Him!! God told me a while back that He has to deliver Zion OUT of Babaylon!!! She has gone into captivity there and now the deliverance will come to her whilst she is in bondage. I had not gone to church in some time and he has called me back into the system, I have gone , kicking at times, but he has me there as a voice crying "prepare the way of the Lord!! He loves his church and he will go to any lengths to save her, Oh dear I could go on and on but Ihave to get ready for work,Godbless, MIchele |
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Thanks once more for your comments Michelle. I believe with all my heart that Zion and the tabernacle of David are much more than just an interesting Bible story, but even at that, it really is an interesting and enlightning sudy.
It almost appears that God let David "break the rules." David was not from Levi, but Judah..yet he functioned often as a priest (also prophet and king). You mention Uzzah, yet God allowed the Ark to be dispayed openly at Zion..no holy place or holy of holies. David even fully changed the "worship format" designating singers, players, etc. and divided them up in courses to minister to the Lord before the Ark 24/7.
We could learn a lot about God's heart and desire for His people by looking into this time and history. But like all of "church" history, eventually decine comes. I find it extremely interesting that at the coucil of Jerusalem (when division was moving into the church again) James brings up the word about David's tabernacle which had fallen.
I just wonder if any others see this connection and maybe can see a needed application to this once more today. I'm afraid I'm not doing a very good job of conveying this to others. That's why I'm making an appeal for help! |
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In an ideal world, I think you are correct...and so it will be some day...in the meantime, I think there are a variety of churches because we have a variety of personalities. Some people like different things.
Be sure to divide your thoughs in two groups - individual and church (with a little "c"). As an individual, we should be worshipers like David was because...well, let's face it...it is ALL about our individual relationship with Jesus. However, we are also told not to forsake the gathering together of the saints and that is where the church with a little "c" comes in. Some people need free flow, some people need ritual...does it really matter if they are gathering together to seek Him? He says where two or more are gathered He is there in the midst of them...doesn't say they have to be following a liturgy or listening to guitar music or singing without instruments...just gather together. What "we" do during that time is relatively unimportant as long as we are allowing Him to do what needs to be done.
Tough topic to discuss, though, because the words don't do it justice, so I understand your concern above. |
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Well, there is one faith once and for all delivered. And there is one Body of Christ. Wherever the individual follower goes he/she carries the Holy Spirit. I've looked at this for years and here's what I have decided. It's people. A result of the fall. We divide over tertiary doctrines that don't amount to anything alongside the beauty of the bride. |
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I agree DC about "some day," but I also believe God wants us to have a foretaste of "some day" NOW so others can see. I know this may sound controversial, but I lean toward God viewing the church as each individual member. I think that's also how He enjoys worship, spirit to Spirit, one heart to His heart. The corporate side of church is man's idea so he can manage it. When it gets too big that's what happens.
I also agree that we should gather to encourage one another and enjoy our God together, and that can be 2 or 3 or two or three thousand, but still God receives our worship as each individual worshipper bows in spirit.
Dave, you are right WE divide. I don't think that pleases God. Like you said there is ONE faith, all the ONE's in Eph. 4, but most important is ONE God and ONE Spirit in which we have our oneness. To me Zion reflected this cuz it was all centered around the ONE Ark.
Thank you both for your comments. I believe Zion and David's tabernacle are not only possible today but what God is seeking among His people right now to bring us back to the simplicity in Christ and the intimacy in relationship (vertically & horizontally). |
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Those of us who are optimists can see the church in a more unified fashion in the future. I've been in several different denominations and ALL of them had different things to offer that the others were missing...ALL....I believe they will be more one in the future. I don't know how, but I believe it because Jesus prayed for it in JN 17 and his prayers WILL be answered, period. Corininthians was written to a church that had the sin of pride. This usually is at the bottom of the probs. with division. I have a book on denominations at home and in each case the denomination was begun by a church that followed a certain man and divided over on certain issue. At least that is what I recall! |
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| As to buildings there is much argument over this issue buildings v. home churches, etc. Scripture certainly depicts both as acceptable, contrary to the premises of MegaShift. Large churches have the advantage of being able to do TV, modern multimedia, etc. Small churches and groups have the advantages of closeness but we must remember the church began as a megachurch not a small house church. |
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Hi reconn, I agree the Lord added thousands at Pentecost and later, but they were there for the feasts and many would be returning to their homes, so I don't think Jerusalem was ever intended to be a mega church. It did blossom out quickly and caused dessention among the saints in how to distribute things in a balanced way. I personally don't believe God desired a large church in Jerusalem nor for the temple to be the centerpiece.
Right before Jesus ascended He told the disciples there to wait in Jerusalem, but He also said to GO out from there (after being empowered from on high) to all Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8), so the idea was to GO spread the good news, not build up Jerusalem. I find it interesting that in Acts 8:1 these same areas Judea and Samaria are mentioned as where they were forced to scatter. It almost seems like God had to use persecution of the church to get the saints out of Jerusalem and into where He originally told them to GO.
You are so right, Jesus' prayer in Jn. 17 IS and will continue to be answered. That prayer was that they may ALL be ONE. I believe the tabernacle of David is rising up again to bring that about.
Demz my thoughts :) |
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"The corporate side of church is man's idea so he can manage it. " Have to know what you mean by corporate to comment. |
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| An amazing thing about corporate (group/congregational) worship... even though we raise our voices together, each voice is also raised individually to God at the same moment, since the Spirit resides in each individual. I believe I sense this duality each Sunday as I thoroughly enjoy the sound of many voices all around me, while at the same time deeply sensing the Lord's interaction within my own spirit. If this sounds like mumbo jumbo, it's b/c I struggle to put the experience into words. Great discussion Charlie! btw, I like what Voice in DC had to say. ~mike |
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Dave to answer your question, I see the corporate side more like how a business is run. It could be large enough to have a headquaters, hierarchy, established administrative procedures, etc. or just a single office with a more abreviated organizational structure. Zion is gathering around a tent (symbolically) to minister directly to the Lord (signified by the Ark). There are no programs, theology, agendas, or leaders, just those ministering to the Lord (alone or with a few others).
Mike, have you ever noticed that in Eph. 5:19 and Col.3:16 it says we "speak" to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, BUT our singing is to the Lord through the melody of our hearts. Like DC said there is both the individual worship and edification toward one another. The worship part can happen in/at the same time and place, or alone privately, but we gather together to encourage one another.
I think of it like this, the music, beat, voices, acoustics etc. are part of what WE enjoy, but God loves the worship that comes from each individual heart. I don't know if He hears the music and voices, etc. but He sure enjoys the melody we offer to Him in our hearts. That's not to say we can't or don't enjoy the music, voices, harmony, etc...I certainly do!! But regarding God, I think it has to do with "God is spirit and we MUST worship Him in spirit and truth/reality." |
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It's resurrect old blog entries day! :> And yes, I would care to discuss this.
Ya know, people really like to know what's going to happen next!
(Yes, even me!)
With building churches, people can have that desire fulfilled.
Even within the really crazy and fun building churches,
there is still somewhat of a predictable format to plan around.
"Just" fellowshipping with one another is scary for a lot of folks.
The Good Shepherd has to be the One that leads them into it. |
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