Hello Donna

Thank you for your response. I Love your SMILE.

Peace will be in the homes of everyone who chooses not to yield to demonic forces, especially around the holidays.

Shalom to yu my friend

Goodmorning my friend Peston

Thank you for acknowledging and responding.  Thank you for the link. I will  check it out.  Have a Holy Spirit filled day.   

Heavenly Father, I pray that you bring CONVICTION and REPENTANCE to those who believe that serving alcohol or other mind altering drugs is okay with You, in the name of my precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, Amen. 

I'm wondering if maybe this applies... Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. (Rom 14:1) 

And perhaps this... For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. (Rom 14:17-18)

And maybe this too... So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. (Rom 14:22) With this scripture in mind, even if I did approve of an occasional alcoholic beverage, I would never try to convince others. Yet neither would I condemn those who do. God is far better at convicting people than I ever could be. Marcia, you have ably shared your convictions on this topic, thanks!

ps... I really love ch. 14 of Romans!

Brother Patrick

Here is the "whole" counsel of God's Word:-

Leviticus chapter 10/9 - "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou nor thy sons with thee , when  ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations. (Why? verse 10..And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; (Why? verse 11..And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statues which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.   Now we know that Jesus Christ is now the High Priest according to Hebrews chapter 11 (But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building..........let's jump to Hebrews chapter 11 verse 14, How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.  Verse 15, And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament by that means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.  Would you say that Jesus Christ drank and served wine or strong drink after reading what was instructed of the Priestly tribe?

Now if my body is filled with wine or strong drink would I be also filled with the Holy Spirit? Ephesians 5/17 Wherefore be ye not UNWISE, but understanding what the WILL of the Lord is. Verse Be not DRUNK with WINE wherein is EXCESS; but be FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.  1 Peter 2/5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.  1 Peter 1/13  Wherefore gird up your loins of your MIND, be SOBER, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. verse 14, As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lust in your ignorance;  verse 15 But as he which has called you is holy, so be ye holy in ALL manner of conversation (living).  verse 16 Because it is WRITTEN, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 

The First thing the Lord had me to do is put away ALL "mind altering substances".  I began to claim a SOUND MIND and a Healthy body.  Why?  because my body now belongs to the Holy Spirit who lives in me.  Would I offer my Lord a vessel that was unholy to live in?  Romans 12/1 I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.  Verse 2 And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.   

Brother Patrick would you please point out any scriptures that I have taken out of context, so that we can search for the truth?  I am not here to debate only to relate and further my Spiritual education.  Perhaps I have missed something?

Shalom to all my friends
Sister Marcia

Brother Patrick

You made the following statement:-

My Lord says this: "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed [to enjoy all things in God's Creation without excess]."(Jonh 8:36)

Brother Patrick,  The verse of scripture in John chapter 8 NEVER said anything about enjoying all things in God's creation without excess.  That is YOUR understanding of that verse of scripture.  You are saying that the born-again Christian and disciple (disciplined one) of Jesus Christ can enjoy ALL things WITHOUT EXCESS.  Therefore, you are saying that a little a little cocaine, a little fornication, a little adultery, a little of everything can be enjoyed without excess.

Brother Patrick it is my understanding that WISDOM must rule the board here.  I DO KNOW that I am to resist  (the devil of temptation)  so that temptation can FLEE from my mind.  In ALL of the scriptures I must use wisdom to rightly divide the Holy Word of the Holy God, who tells me I must be Holy in all manner of conversation (living).  I believe I have rightly divided the Word of the living God and have given many examples.

Shalom to all my friends
Sister Marcia  

I personally am not condemned by my own heart if I should choose to have a drink. However, I very, very seldom do because I do not generally crave it and if I do have a drink I do not drink to get high (that would be excessive).  Having said that, I recognize that a lot of people do have a problem with it and I seldom if ever offer a drink to anyone else either.

My interpretation of the scriptures is that one is not condemned for drinking a little, but scriptures also recognize and warn against those who drink to excess.   All in all, God gives us a free will in Him and tells us not to use our liberty as Christians for an occasion to the flesh (lust, pride, drunkenness, etc.) but by LOVE, SERVE one another. The Bible then goes on to tell us what the fruits of the spirit are...that is those that are walking in the Spirit,

Galatians 5:22-23, sets out these spiritual fruits/ attributes as: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.  Temperance is self control and could apply to anything we do (eat, drink, be merry, etc.). In all things we should have self control.

Now I just want to address Brother Patrick's tone with you sister Marcia. I think it is a serious matter to call another saint "contentious" when they are stating their beliefs based on the Bible. He also seems to suggest that it is because you are a woman that a great debate has been raised. *frown*.

I am well aware that there are many contentious women in Christendom but I am also aware of many contentious men.  I guess the thing we all need to remember is to judge not and not to "teach" or instruct others as if we are judging them. If we could all do that better, then perhaps there would be less contention all around. Having said that, we should all remember that Jesus himself was despised and rejected of men (this is the perfect season to remember the sorrows he bore on our behalf). If we follow in His footsteps, it is more likely that we too will be despised and rejected of men. But we should aim to be Jesus & God-pleasers more than man-pleasers, all the while endeavouring to exhibit the 9 fruits of the spirit.

Brother Patrick and others who share his distaste for women teachers might consider some teachings from a man on the subject of the role of women in the Church.  What follows is a good summary (I apologize in advance for the length of it):

J. Lee Grady is editor of "Charisma Magazine" and an outspoken advocate for women in ministry. His new book, 25 Tough Questions About Women and the Church (Charisma House), was released in April. This article is reprinted with the gracious permission of J. Lee Grady and the magazine "Spirit Led Woman" published by Strang Communications. For subscription information to this excellent magazine click  www.spiritledwoman.com.

FOR CENTURIES, A PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM OF CONTROL HAS KEPT WOMEN IN SPIRITUAL CAPTIVITY THROUGH DISTORTION OF THE SCRIPTURES.  IT'S TIME TO DEBUNK THE MYTHS. 

By J. Lee Grady

We live in the 21st century, but if we're honest we have to admit that in some ways the church is still in the Dark Ages--especially when we look at the way we treat women.

Even though the Scriptures never portray women as secondary to men, our male-dominated religious system still promotes a warped view of female inferiority.  Women are tired of this, and as a man, so am I--because such demeaning attitudes don't reflect God's heart. 

Jesus challenged gender prejudice at its core when He directed so much of His ministry toward women.  In a Middle Eastern culture that considered women mere property, He healed women, discipled them and commissioned them to minister.  Yet today we spend much of our energy denying them opportunities--and using the Bible to defend our prohibitions. 

I've identified 10 erroneous views about women that for too long have been circulated in the church, preached from pulpits and written in the study notes of popular Bible translations.  I believe we must debunk these lies if we want to see the church fully released to fulfill the Great Commission. 

LIE #1.  GOD'S ULTIMATE PLAN FOR WOMEN IS THAT THEY SERVE THEIR HUSBANDS.

How sad that so many Christian men view women from a selfish perspective.  This view is often promoted by misreading the account of Eve's creation in Genesis 2:18-25, in which Adam is provided a "helpmate."   The Hebrew word used here often is translated "companion," denoting intimacy and partnership.  But through the centuries it has been used to imply that Eve was some type of domestic appendage. 

We men have assumed that God gave Eve to fulfill Adam's sexual needs as well as to serve as his cook, laundress and maid.  But the Genesis account does not say this. 

After Eve's creation, God did not tell her: "You are Adam's helper; I command you to serve him well."   She was not created for servitude; she was fashioned to be a co-laborer with Adam so that they might rule together over creation as God commissioned them to do (see Gen. 1:28). 

LIE #2.  WOMEN CAN'T BE FULFILLED OR SPIRITUALLY EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A HUSBAND.

From the time she was released from a German death camp in 1944 until her death in 1983, Corrie Ten Boom taught the world about a Savior who could forgive the cruelest Nazi.  Yet she never married.  Did the fact that she did not have a husband make her less "complete"?  Some Christians would say yes. 

We have spent so much energy defending the concept of the biblical family that we are guilty of idolizing it.   We've preached that a woman's primary responsibility is to find a godly husband, have lots of babies and stay home to raise them for Christ.  

But marital status is not a qualifier for ministry.  The Bible does not even state whether certain key followers of Jesus, such as the 12 disciples, were married or not. 

The highest calling of all believers--married or unmarried--is to develop a relationship with Jesus.  Any other earthly relationship is secondary, and Christ Himself warned us never to allow people we love to become idols that distract us from Him. 

LIE #3.  WOMEN SHOULDN'T WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME.

Many evangelical churches have preached that women who work outside the home are breaking a scriptural commandment, but this conclusion can be reached only by distorting the biblical record.  The woman described in Proverbs 31 is often used to bolster a traditional view of the June Cleaver-style matron who spends her day baking casseroles while her husband is at the office.  But a careful reading reveals that the Proverbs 31 woman, in her ancient Middle Eastern context, functioned as a real estate agent and ran a textile business. 

Titus 2:5 instructs women to "take care of their homes" (New Living Translation).  But most scholars would agree that this passage simply exhorts married women not to forsake their children. 

It is true that, because of ambition or materialism, some Christian women neglect their children even though the Holy Spirit has urged them to put their career objectives on hold.  But rather than placing a legalistic burden on women by telling them that having a career is ungodly, we should tell both men and women to submit their career plans to the Holy Spirit's direction. 

LIE #4.  WOMEN MUST OBEDIENTLY SUBMIT TO THEIR HUSBANDS IN ALL SITUATIONS.

A distraught Christian woman who was regularly beaten by her husband finally gained the courage to seek counsel from her pastor.  After she told him about her husband's fits of rage, the pastor responded, "If your husband kills you, it will be to the glory of God."

The pastor reached this irresponsible conclusion because of a distorted view of "male headship." We often portray marriage as a hierarchy, with husbands on the throne and wives at the footstool, and we use Scripture to justify this view: "Wives...submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord" (Eph. 5:22).

We assume this verse means women have no say in family matters or that their opinion is second-rate.  In extreme cases, women have been told to submit to abuse in order to honor male headship.  But this is not a Christian view. 

Paul also told the Ephesians, "submit to one another" (5:21, emphasis added).  I have heard teachings by male clergy on the subject of male headship, but I've never heard a pastor encourage men to submit to their wives! Yet in a loving marriage, a man and woman will defer to one another as they make decisions. 

In my 16 years of marriage, my wife and I have had plenty of disagreements.  But when we reach an impasse, I don't announce, "I am the head of this house, so what I say goes."   Rather, Deborah and I either agree to pray about the matter, or we choose to defer to one another. 

The point is never who is in charge.  I view my wife as an equal.  I am not "over her."   We function as one. 

LIE #5.  A MAN NEEDS TO "COVER" A WOMAN IN HER MINISTRY ACTIVITIES.

This idea came from a distorted interpretation of the apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 11:3, "the head of woman is man" (NKJV).  People have used these words to bolster the idea that women are subservient to men or that they cannot approach God without a male authority figure in their lives. 

Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 about head coverings is a difficult passage, and Bible scholars don't agree on its meaning.  However, most teach that Paul is addressing specific cultural concerns in first-century Corinth and that he is calling for propriety and order in a society where immorality and paganism had blurred gender distinctions. 

Paul was not placing men in a position of generic rulership over women.  Because there is "no male or female in Christ" (see Gal. 3:28), women can pray, worship, study the Bible or minister without a man present.  How silly to think that a man, because of his gender, could add credibility to prayer or Spirit-empowered ministry! To believe this would be to trust in the flesh. 

LIE #6. A WOMAN SHOULD VIEW HER HUSBAND AS THE "PRIEST OF THE HOME."

Search your concordance.  Scripture never describes men as "priests of the home."   This man-made concept was popularized in evangelical churches in the last century.  We have one priest, Jesus Christ, whose blood atoned for our sins.  It is a mockery of the gospel to suggest that any human being needs an additional priest apart from the Son of God.

The Bible says all believers are priests (see 1 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 1:6); there is no gender restriction.  Husbands function as priests when they pray for their families or when they minister the Word of God to them, and wives also function in this role. 

My experience in marriage has been that God speaks both to me and to my wife.  He doesn't say to me, "Since you are the head of this house, I'll tell you my plans for your family, and you can tell the others what I said."   Often God has revealed His plans to my wife before I heard anything!

Christian men need to stop being defensive and recognize that God has called us to function in unity with our wives.  We need to listen to their counsel, consider their opinions, and pray together for the mind of the Lord rather than putting our foot down and shouting, "I am the leader of this family, and what I say goes!"  

LIE #7.  WOMEN ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO ASSUME LEADERSHIP ROLES.

The most common mistake we make in biblical interpretation occurs when we take one isolated verse and build a doctrine around it--even if the verse seems to contradict other passages.  This is often what we do with 1 Tim. 2:12, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man" (NASB).

Most theologians believe that this passage was addressing an isolated situation in Ephesus.  They came to this conclusion after studying the myriad of references in the Bible to women in spiritual authority.  The Old Testament records that Deborah was a judge over Israel--and God blessed her leadership in battle (see Judg. 4-5).  Other women who held authority over men include Miriam, Huldah and Noadiah. 

Jesus issued His first gospel commission to women (see Matt. 28:1-10), and both men and women were empowered to preach on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).  Priscilla, Chloe and Phoebe were leaders in the early church, and one woman, Junia, is called an apostle by Paul (Rom. 16:7).

The promise of the prophet Joel was that "sons and daughters" would prophesy after the Holy Spirit was given to the church (Joel 2:28, emphasis added).  Yet we have taken one misunderstood verse from Paul's writings and used it to negate hundreds of other passages that support the full release of women into ministry.

LIE #8: WOMEN MUST NOT TEACH OR PREACH TO MEN IN A CHURCH SETTING.

Since 1 Timothy 2:12 obviously contradicts the overall biblical endorsement of women in authority, how are we to understand it? What is Paul actually saying in this passage?

In their book I Suffer Not a Woman, Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger explain that certain cultic worship practices involving female priestesses of Diana had invaded the first-century church.  These priestesses promoted blasphemous ideas about sex and spirituality, and they sometimes performed rituals in which they pronounced curses on men and declared female superiority.

What Paul was most likely saying to the Ephesians was this: "I do not allow a woman to teach these cultic heresies, nor do I allow them to usurp authority from men by performing pagan rituals."   He was not saying, as some Christians have assumed, "I do not allow godly Christian women to teach the Bible."   In his day, Paul would have been thrilled to have had more skilled women who could teach the truth!

LIE #9.  WOMEN ARE MORE EASILY DECEIVED THAN MEN.

This idea has been taught by twisting the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:14, which says, "It was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (NLT).  Some have suggested that because Eve was tricked by the devil, women have a stronger propensity toward deception.  Others have gone so far as to insist that women are to blame for all the evil in the world and are therefore under a greater curse than men. 

No respectable Bible scholar in the church today would promote such a view.  The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were both held guilty by God for their disobedience, and they were both punished.  In 1 Timothy, Paul cited the creation account not to place extra blame on Eve but to refute a bizarre teaching that was circulating in Asia Minor. 

In the first century, Gnostic heretics were mixing Christianity with paganism.  One of their teachings stated that Eve actually liberated the world when she disobeyed God and gained secret knowledge from the devil. 

Paul was not teaching that women are more prone to deception.  He was explaining that what Eve did was not right, and that the Christian view of the creation was that Adam and Eve sinned when they listened to the serpent. 

Women are certainly capable of spreading deception because they have a fallen nature as men do, but there is no evidence that they have greater gullibility.  That view is rooted in demeaning stereotypes and prejudice. 

LIE #10: WOMEN WHO EXHIBIT STRONG LEADERSHIP QUALITIES HAVE A "SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL."

Once I was listening to Bible teacher Cindy Jacobs speak at a prayer conference in Colorado.  When she approached the pulpit, two men who were sitting in front of me turned to each other and began to pray softly. 

"Lord, we bind the power of the devil from bewitching this audience," one man said, adding, "We bind the power of Jezebel in the name of Jesus."   These men believed that the crowd would automatically come under a spirit of deception when Jacobs taught them--simply because she was a woman. 

How absurd! Was Barak "deceived" when he took orders from Deborah? (See Judg. 4:14.) Did baby Jesus come under a harmful influence when Anna prophesied over Him? (See Luke 2:36-38.) Was Apollos spiritually emasculated when he submitted to the teaching of Priscilla? (See Acts 18:26.) Of course not!

To associate godly women with Jezebel, a wicked Old Testament despot, is unfair and offensive, yet men in the church today often pin Jezebel's label on strong, anointed women because they feel threatened by them. 

Let's stop the insults.  If a woman is using manipulation to usurp authority or if she is spreading heresies, then she certainly deserves the Jezebel label--as do men who do such things.  But women who walk in spiritual integrity and preach the Word of God with power deserve our respect. 

________________________
J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine, has enlarged on this topic in his book, Ten Lies the Church Tells Women.  It is excellent.

Hmm, I've never heard it called "gossip" when a person use your own words in comments to show what it is they are responding to...that is a strange definition of gossip.

 "Gossip is idle talk or rumour, especially about the personal or private affairs of others. It forms one of the oldest and most common means of sharing (unproven) facts and views...." We (I) have not discussed your personal or private views or unproven facts and views. Only taken your own words to respond to them.

I find it so sad that you cannot have a discussion or debate on issues pertaining to our christian walk without being judgemental and bombastic. It is okay to have strong views but I don't think it is okay to be overbearing.  We need to love one another being able to "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

If everything was as black and white as you seem to think it is there would be no need for preachers and teachers, evangelists, prophets etc. and we could all be in unity through the leading of the spirit. Even in early Christianity, these men and women of God were there to help the saints to grow in their walk after God sent his comforter the Holy Spirit. 

I have seen too many christians give up their walk at a time of weakness and need for faithful friends and exhorters because ONE christian told them off in a haughty manner or refused to dialogue about issues because they knew the Word best. Brethern let us love one another and rebuke in love as well as exhort with all longsuffering.  " By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35

BTW, I don't know if you caught the fact that I share your views on the issue of alcohol.I have the freedom to imbibe but I seldom do it or serve it.

Shalom and God bless 

"Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: ..."(Leviticus 10:9)

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." (Proverbs 31:6)

"And be not drunkwith wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; ..." (Ephesians 5:18)
 

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake andthine often infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23)

"The aged [oldr] women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given [habitual] to much wine, ...; ..." (Titus 2:3)

"A bishop [elder] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife [at a time], vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given [habitual] to wine, ..." (1 Timothy 3:2&3)

"Likewise must the deacons [men workers in the Church] be grave [honorable], not double tongued, notgiven [habitual] to much wine, ..." (1 Timothy 3:8)
 
As It is also written: "And in all your getting, get understanding."  (Proverbs 4:7)  "... let God be true but every man [and woman] a liar - as it is written: That you may be justified in your words, and may overcome when you are judged [righteously]." (Romans 3:4b)

My Lord says this: "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed [to enjoy all things in God's Creation without excess]." (Jonh 8:36)

Blessings to all.

Oops, lol!  I should have made it clear that "I share the interpretation of the  biblical views  on the issue of alcohol. I have the freedom to imbibe but I seldom do it or serve it."

God bless

Geographically, there are many places that the water is not fit for human consumption, and if visiting them as an ambassador of Christ, you tell them they are sinning against the Lord, you drive them away from the Lord.

Historically, they had the same problem, much of the water was contaminated.

Culturally, many cultures in the world have wine, but don't abuse it, as it is like having a soda, or tea with their meals.

I am a recovering alcoholic, (sober 13 yrs) so I don't drink it, as I know that for me, it will lead to bad problems, and separating me from the Lord.

If invited to a home of someone that is drinking, I will not refuse to eat with them because they drink though, because that is not what Christ did, He came for the sinner, if we take up the attitude of the Pharisee's, that those that drink are unclean, how are we to spread the good news.

If a person calling himself/herself a follower of Christ is drunk, then I will rebuke/reprove him/her.

But as to a believer taking a drink from time to time, if done in moderation, I don't see a problem, as long as they do it privately, and in moderation. But to serve it to others, as a drink after meals, I think would be ok, as long as it was just A drink, but to drink it just to get drunk or to get a buzz, I think is wrong.

Hello Marcia,

I had forgotten that I had posted a comment here, so I never checked back for your response, lol. I just wanted to thank you publicly for writing this, and encouraging others to wrestle with this issue. God bless you sister!