Fr Vincent
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Saint Nicholas: the man, the myth
||December 08, 2008|226 reads
 

To add a comment to "Saint Nicholas: the man, the myth"
Gary Robison
December 09, 2008

i knew some of this, but interesting facts. here is a question though.

why is Christmas now celebrated on the 25th.

I have read that it was moved to help bring the pagans into church due to them celebrating winter solstice, but as is a usual custom, the church allowed the pagan to bring their customs and idolatry (tree decorating, miseltow, ect) with them into the church.

Patrick
December 09, 2008
Fr. Vince,  Thanks for the lesson.  I plan to share it tonight with my boys at dinner.

God's Blessings,
pa
Fr Vincent
December 09, 2008

Pa - hope your boys enjoy the thoughts.

Gary - right, Christmas (Christ Mass) is on 12-25 and the earliest known history is that the Nativity was commemorated on the Philocalian Calendar which represents the Roman practice in 336.  I spent some time explaining the history in Advent (Coming), previously posted.  And right, almost everything we now identify as Christian was originally pagan.  At Christmas, the trees, wreaths, mistletoe etc. all originate with the Germanic, Scandinavian & Norse tribes.  They represented Druid belief but were "baptized" through Christian thought and practice.

Have a great day, v

Gary Robison
December 09, 2008

but is it "right" to adobpt pagan practices and then call them Christian.

Did not the Lord say to obstain from the practices of the pagans.

Ancient Israel was always getting into trouble for adobpting the practices of the nations around them.

 

Fr Vincent
December 09, 2008
Hi Gary, good question. 

The first commandment says to have no strange gods, no graven images, the OT kings mostly got in trouble for worshipping the neighborhood gods, and the prophets always warn against worshipping those gods.  On the other hand the early Church took a by-whatever-means attitude in winning converts and they did it by christianizing their symbols.  I am inclined to think that if they had not done that Christianity might not have made the same in roads into the barbarian and tribal people of Europe, and without their conversion there would not have been the missionary endeavors in the "new world". 

By definition, churches are the offspring of pagan temples so do we dump churches?  (Actually I support that notion in favor of home communities) 

And then if we were to go down that path how do we define what's pagan or not?  In Judaism there is a prohbition of all images, period, and if we adapted that then we could not make any images of Jesus or pictures of doves as the Holy Spirit.  In Islam there is a prohibition against anything in nature so they don't even draw leaves or vines.  Given modern culture is a computer the product of pagan society?  If so, then we could not use one for church work but we have christianized it to teach Christ.

I'm just thinking out loud.  What do you think about this?
Gary Robison
December 10, 2008

This is what I think.

Christ is more interested in quality than quantity. What comes to mind is the teaching He gave on His flesh and blood. When He told the followers that they would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood, there was a big falling away. John 6:53-56

If the Lord calls us to be holy, then are we not to be holy, and separate? We are to be a particular people, set aside.

When He said to worship no other gods, then their symbols should be put out and we should have nothing to do with them.

I will be a back-seat driver here.... How much better would the church be now, if the early church would have been stronger, and NOT have had the attitude of "by what-ever means?" I think we would have a stronger impact on the world, and even now the church is more of a stumbling block than a step up to Christ. The world looks at as and asks themselves why should they convert, the Christians are no different than the world, or at least a lot of it is.... I look at the Muslim religion and wonder why they grow at such leaps.. it is I believe because the world sees them as different, the Muslims ,make their followers live differently then they did before they converted...  Where as the church says, you can stay the way you are..  (I know that not all churches teach this way, but the attitude is there, being a church nomad (going to many different denominations) I have seen this personally.

Do we dump the churches because they are off springs of pagan temples... I think "yep". I have gone to home church for about 15 years now, have visited other buildings in that time though. Why would the churches want to move into these lavish temples? What comes to mind is that the Lord looks to the heart and motives.

If the Word says not to have ANY graven images, why to we think we know better than the LORD. To go down that "road" is truly a deep subject, but remember what Christ said, narrow and straight is the path to salvation, and wide is the path of damnation.. Matt 7:13-14..

 

Any ways... my thoughts..... 

Fr Vincent
December 10, 2008

As I read your comment I was reminded of the Church from the Apostles (33 AD) up to the Edit of Milan (313 AD).  Throughout that period believers were exactly what you said:  different.  That was their great attraction because the pagans the Greco-Roman Empire saw them living a joyful and fulfilled life without buying into the culture of the day.  It was after 313 that Church and State were wedded, and the two have been odd-bedfellows ever since.

Anyway, going back to different.  There are several early works that identify just how different the Church was in those days and I read them a lot.  Among the prohibitions was that no Christian could work for the government, join the military, or otherwise be involved with the State.  Wow - how would that change American Christianity today? 

One reference is "The Faith of the Early Fathers" Volume One by William A. Jurgens.  That is actually a three volume work but only volume one covers that timeframe.  Its amazing to me how different the Church is today than then - those people were on fire for Christ.  You and they would be fabulous friends :)

So yeah, I'm rethinking what I said about the by-whatever-means thing.  Maybe they should have taken a different approach.  Interesting.

Patrick
December 10, 2008
Gary and Vince...if I may join in here...

Various learnings I have done over the years suggest a slightly different take.  I don't believe it was an issue of adopting pagan practices as Christian nor was it an issue of 'by whatever means'.  It was a simpler matter of education and practical limitations.

The education was to explain that prayers or sacrifices to the Sun god where not the reason for the sun starting to appear again, but that instead it was the season of the beginning of the rebirth, given us by the birth of Christ Jesus.  Messages at that time and among those hearing it were passed mostly by word-of-mouth.  So the winter solstice becoming a remembrance of His birth rather than a time for Sun god became an educated transition from a pagan practice to a Christian practice.  And I think any time we can replace one of 'theirs' with one of 'ours', that is a good thing!

The practical limitations are akin to the reason that students in America today still have a 9 month school year.  That practice began when we were largely an agricultural society and kids were needed in the summer to help on the farm.  If we look at most holidays and holy-days in our society today, they evolved around often practical matters and timing that fit the seasons.  With no modern transportation, travel even in a local region was a multi-day event.  So how many holidays/holy-days do we have in the summer months?   Virtually none ...and the few we have are more recent (4th of July, Memorial day).

all just thoughts and personal opinion...worth every dollar you spent on it...lol 
Fr Vincent
December 10, 2008
Thanks Pa -

hey, the more the merrier!  Yes, the notion of practical limitation is a very different take.  I hadn't thought about that, ever. Thanks!