Here is another mini-debate with a non-Christian (different from the last one). I stripped out large chunks of each exchange (over 75% in most cases), boiling it down to the main thread. I'm sharing this private exchange with you for three reasons: one, I want to show how logic comes into play in debate; two, to encourage other Christians out there that are in similar situations (yes, debates can be won, although it helps to have equal numbers on each side); and three, to show you how I used the philosophical teachings of several other Christians in the real world. Intersperced in the transcript are after-the-fact comments by myself [in square brackets.] A non-Christian wrote: I don't believe any human could possibly fulfill all of the laws that pertain to them personally... They might try and justify their behavior as being acceptable and within the law, but I don't think it is possible for anyone to follow the law to the letter for an entire lifetime. Eric wrote: Refreshingly well-phrased. I agree with you.... [I then outlined Jonathan Edwards' idea of "moral ability" and "physical ability" and pointed out that every law is physically able to be followed, but "nobody's perfect" and therefore nobody wants to follow God's law perfectly.] A non-Christian wrote: [He ignores almost my entire private message, but does agree that each one of the laws can theoretically be followed perfectly. But,] Where are the stories of Jesus's childhood? As a child he was pefect as well? [This is his own bait for me, but I'm about to use it against him. He knows about Luke 2 and expects me to say "yes," going by man's definition of "perfect."] Eric wrote: What of Jesus's childhood? I notice you subtly changed how Jesus was perfect. The prior statements were on Jesus perfectly following God's commandments. Now you are trying to say Jesus was a perfect child, which I will not agree to. The former has been objectively defined as adherence to the set of God's commandments. Can you objectively define what a perfect child is? I'm not sure I am able to do so. [My counter-bait.] A non-Christian wrote: In my opinion, perfection would mean no mouth, no hands, no ears, or eyes.... A perfect child? How about never once disobeying your parents, disrespecting your parents, etc... [He bit!] Eric wrote: Opinions are fine, but serve little purpose in determining what Jesus should and should not have done. I draw from the same objective source Jesus did: God's Word. According to God, perfection is nothing of the sort that you describe. Wouldn't you say that's a little unfair of you judging someone else by standards you've set without them knowing or even accepting yours first?.... [Regarding "A perfect child":] Now you are using God's Word and not your opinions, and I agree that those two things would constitute perfect obedience toward the child's parents. Can you cite evidence where Jesus disobeyed or disrespected God, Joseph, or Mary? If no evidence can be provided, you must admit that Jesus was a "perfect child," by your own reasoning. [Checkmate! :)] A non-Christian wrote: [He ignores the Checkmate above and almost my entire response. Regarding sources...] My arguments are based on my belief that if there is a God, a creator of the universe, no one knows him at all.... Eric wrote: Fair enough, and thanks for sharing. I just hope you realize that your beliefs are irrational, blind leaps of faith. But you are certainly entitled to your beliefs! For instance, you claim not to know if God exists or not. (If you do not accept the Bible as God's Word, then this is a good conclusion, in my opinion.) Yet you state with confidence that (if God exists,) God is not a vengeful God. How do you know this? You seem to have made up your mind on certain things. How do you know your logic is sound? You seem to have solved the problem of evil. Yet, if that is so, then how do you explain evil in the world today? (Philosophers are still wrestling with this. You might want to clue them in.) [This is bait.] A non-Christian wrote: [He picks up on "how do you explain evil in the world today?"] Man has free will. There are good and bad people and that has nothing to do with God or the devil. [He took my bait. :)] Eric wrote: What is this "good" and "bad" you speak of? Can you tell me? (For instance, how do you define "bad"?) [I'm "pulling a Ravi" here. See where I'm going?] A non-Christian wrote: My definition of a bad person is someone who is dishonest, and purposefully hurts others people either physically, or emotionally. While there are other ways to be bad, I feel those concepts best define a bad person. [Yes! He took my bait again!] Eric wrote: So, honesty is a good thing? Even when it can emotionally hurt someone else? [Check!] What about physical therapists who often (purposefully!) create lots of pain in their patients while straightening them out? [Check!] Certainly there are some grey zones, and one of your criteria can potentially lead to a contradiction. What's your justification for distinguishing between good and bad? [My lead-in for the Checkmate!]
Note how I was confident that I could take any arbitrary definition (apart from God's Word) and turn it against him. It didn't matter what it was, it was going to be self-contradictory in some way. This kind of assurance in the unbreakable nature of God's Word is my source of confidence. It doesn't come quickly, but trust like this builds with time, with incrimental, small trusts, and I'm filled with joy now to posess this confidence in my Lord! I wonder at how I may trust the Lord ten years from now! After a checkmate and two checks, I got no more responses from this individual, and in fact, he disappeared from the greater forum altogether for two weeks. Throughout that time I prayed for him. My close friend is familiar with this individual and believes he is a seeker who will eventually come to Christ. If you'd like to pray for him, you don't need a name. God knows who this soul is. My intention was to show how solid the Word of God is, and how absolutely essential it is to stand on His Word for the world to make any sense at all. If he sees this, he may put his trust in God's Word. The Gospel was shown to him at an earlier time. Stand on God's Word and you will win every time (even if you may appear to lose in debate). Stand on man's thoughts and you will lose every time (although it is possible to appear to win with clever words). 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. |