Kathy
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Are Our Nativity Scenes Biblical?
||December 22, 2008|1369 reads
 

To add a comment to "Are Our Nativity Scenes Biblical?"
Mike n Laura
December 22, 2008
Amen Kathy. Though I've never studied the history of the popular interpretation of the manger scene, I've read the gospel accounts enough times to see some disparities. But that's never stopped me from smiling and inwardly worshiping whenever I behold another "factually incorrect" manger, :-)
Bill Stevenson
December 23, 2008

I am not for the Christmas traditions anymore. There is a reason why a specific day was not mentioned in the Bible for the most important birth.  December 25th was chosen by a Roman Catholic Pope.  Jesus Christ was probably born in late September or early October in accordance to one of the Jewish Feasts.  And the addition of Santa Claus influencing parents to lie to their children about someone who is supposed to have God-like attributes (remember the famous song about him). And the current President changed the White House Christmas Tree to the Holiday Tree so that non-Christians would not be offended anymore and he believes that God the Father and Allah are the same.  The possible next President probably agrees.  Most of the gift giving done is with hopes of receiving even better gifts.  But I still do a lot of intercessory praying during December because it is the best time for Christians and churches to evangelize.  Also during this month there are more news stories of compassionate actions done for others and so I pray each time I see such that others might be encouraged to do similar.  More about Christmas and other USA holidays can be found at http://www.box.net/shared/8vikemd3eb .

Bill Stevenson
December 23, 2008

When I was in my first Christian school teaching ministry, two parents got angry that I wanted to have a birthday celebration instead of Santa Claus and gift exchange.  Most of us have celebrated December 24th and 25th with the wrong attitude and purpose during our childhoods and after.  But we also have celebrated our own physical birthdays wrongly.  The main emphasis should be thanking God for another year of life.  Where in the Bible does it say that we should get congratulations and presents?

 

But the most important facts are: What a sacrifice Jesus Christ made for us.  He gave up wonderful Heaven and His power to come to Earth and begin as a baby in a poor situation.  And later He had to resist temptations, suffer ridicule and a horrible physical beating, and die for us.  He fulfilled the death penalty requirement of all who break God's Law and conquered physical death, so that all who believe in Him and the full Gospel can have eternal life with Him in Heaven and on the New Earth where there will be no sin and sicknesses.

Dennis Howe
December 23, 2008
Nice Kathy,
I myself have pretty much gotten over my self righteous indignation (referring to myself and no others) over things that might not be perfectly scriptural, or even perfectly traditional. Firstly, too many of us look at scripture, tradition, and even church history, and become judge and jury for what is accurate and orthodox. I've come to a point of knowing what I think about those things, but not taking myself too serious. I guess I've eaten way, way too much crow over the years. Instead, like Lewises Narnia, I think that when I get to heaven earth will be revealed for it's true self. All these questions will be shown in their fullness, all allegory explained, all confusions cleared up, and our own follies and falsehoods will be both exposed and healed.
So,
I revel in the truth of who St. Nicholas was, rejoice with the Wise men, and sing heartily about a star over Bethlehem, all the time knowing that the reality involves God being ever-begotten, true flesh of true flesh, fully God and fully man, born in a manger, yet born to die for our sins, whew, what an act of love. The act of love. The act of all acts. Whew, what a God !
Caleb
December 23, 2008

Our nativity scenes are orthodoxical wrong yet somewhat correct when compared to non-orthodox "gospels" or apocryphal books. Although this apocryphal books are not necessary accurate either, this particular one seems to contain or portrait our current secular version more "accurately".

"The Gosple of James, also sometimes known as the Infancy Gospel of James or the Protoevangelium of James, is an apocryphal Gospel probably written about AD 150. The Gospel of James may be the earliest surviving document attesting the veneration of Mary by stating her perpetual virginity (19-20) and presenting her as the New Eve (13)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James

 In analysing the different biblical accounts one finds many contradictions and myths. As concluded by R.C. Symes:

"It is as difficult to harmonize the Bible’s accounts of the birth of Jesus with the record of his adult ministry, as it is to explain the inconsistencies in these birth accounts themselves. Instead of taking the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke literally, and thereby doing a disservice to historicity and rational thought, we should accept them as religious myths. They are beautiful legends embodying faith in the supernatural and the efficacy of prophecy. They are attempts by these gospel authors to put into words their conception of a momentous, divine event. And they do so in a manner consistent with what credulous people in ancient times expected.

Although we shall never be sure about the exact circumstances of Jesus' birth, we do know that about two thousand years ago, there was born in rural Palestine an extraordinary Jew who was to change profoundly the course of human history."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_lib.htm 

 

Merry Christmas!!!!!!! 

 

Donna S
December 23, 2008
Our Pastor told abou this 2 weeks ago, Great info and we must not only remember jesus lying in the manger .....
God Bless
Tom
December 23, 2008
   Question Kathy:

   If the wise men saw the star in "the east", they would have to have come from the west of Bethlehem, and not Persia, which is East of Bethlehem. So they came from the Mediterranean Sea direction, right? From Persia, going East to Bethlehem, they would have to circle the globe, going East all the way.

   Keep it accurate Kathy, don't go with tradition !  :0)  (just teasing you)

                                                                                      Grace and Peace to you and yours Kathy!
DarkRadiance
December 23, 2008
I have always liked this story:
It happened in the third year before his death, that in order to excite the inhabitants of Grecio to commemorate the nativity of the Infant Jesus with great devotion, [St. Francis] determined to keep it with all possible solemnity; and lest he should be accused of lightness or novelty, he asked and obtained the permission of the sovereign Pontiff. Then he prepared a manger, and brought hay, and an ox and an ass to the place appointed. The brethren were summoned, the people ran together, the forest resounded with their voices, and that venerable night was made glorious by many and brilliant lights and sonorous psalms of praise. The man of God [St. Francis] stood before the manger, full of devotion and piety, bathed in tears and radiant with joy; the Holy Gospel was chanted by Francis, the Levite of Christ. Then he preached to the people around the nativity of the poor King; and being unable to utter His name for the tenderness of His love, He called Him the Babe of Bethlehem. A certain valiant and veracious soldier, Master John of Grecio, who, for the love of Christ, had left the warfare of this world, and become a dear friend of this holy man, affirmed that he beheld an Infant marvellously beautiful, sleeping in the manger, Whom the blessed Father Francis embraced with both his arms, as if he would awake Him from sleep. This vision of the devout soldier is credible, not only by reason of the sanctity of him that saw it, but by reason of the miracles which afterwards confirmed its truth. For example of Francis, if it be considered by the world, is doubtless sufficient to excite all hearts which are negligent in the faith of Christ; and the hay of that manger, being preserved by the people, miraculously cured all diseases of cattle, and many other pestilences; God thus in all things glorifying his servant, and witnessing to the great efficacy of his holy prayers by manifest prodigies and miracles.
Caleb
December 23, 2008

Tom, your point is pretty good for most people normally do not question the accuracy of the star story.

"The star of Bethlehem is also most likely a fabrication, consistent with legends of the ancient world that had heavenly events portend the births of great men. In first century Palestine there was no concept of astronomy and natural law as we know it. In reality, as anyone who looks up in the nighttime sky can verify, no star high in the heavens can shine only on a particular town, let alone on a specific house as the Bible claims (Matt. 2:9-11). The Christmas star, rising in the east, moving west to Jerusalem, and then taking a jog south to Bethlehem and finally remaining stationary, would have defied the laws of celestial motion." http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_lib.htm

Biblical you can see the lack of astronomy knowledge in Mat. 2:1-2 and 9-10:

"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." 

"After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed."

I like the the story of a celestial body announcing Jesus' birth even if astronomically faulty. We humans like a good story, don't we? 

Kathy
December 23, 2008
Woman, Mike, and Tim, so great to see you!  Thank you for reading, and may you and your families have a peaceful and joy-filled celebration of Jesus' birth!

Bill and Caleb, thank you for sharing your perspectives.  Merry Christmas!

Dennis, I believe you are one of our "wise men!"    :)

Donna, you are right that the Immanuel story doesn't end with the manger.  "God with us" came with a purpose.  As a former pastor used to say, over the manger there is always the shadow of the cross.

Tom, grace and peace to you as well.  A rereading of the 2nd chapter of Matthew in its entirety I think will change your perspective.  Verse one says, "behold, wise men came from the East, came to Jerusalem . . ." The verses you are remembering are probably verses 2 and 9, which refer to the wise men having seen the star in the East, meaning in context, "having seen the star when they were in the East."  Told from Jerusalem's perspective.  In grammatical terms, the adverbial phrase "in the East" is not modifiying the star but the seeing.  That said, I am sure I have not escaped tradition's hold and that there is much I have accepted without questioning it.  Thanks Tom, and Merry Christmas!
Tom
December 23, 2008
   Yes your right Caleb, sounds more like a UFO with floodlights than a "star", don't it ?
Tom
December 23, 2008
   "k" Kathy, I sit corrected !  :0)
Kathy
December 23, 2008

Malleus, a gentle story of St. Francis and the Baby Jesus.  One I have not heard.  Is it generally known and shared among Catholics?

Caleb, certainly defying all natural laws.  To believe such phenomena is a choice, and I choose to believe.  An omnipotent God can make anything happen that He wishes, and surely, given the greatest event in history, this would be a time for such.  I agree with you, however, that supernatural stories were an expected part of the ancient religions and that some religious groups even now substantiate their faith with continual supernatural sightings.  A tourist trip to Israel, for example, is filled with objects which are claimed to be "the ___ that ____ used when he ____  . . ."  As long as there are humans, there will likely be the embrace of tangible miracles, whether real or invented.
 

DarkRadiance
December 23, 2008

It depends Kathy. If one is raised in a Franciscan parish or school, then it is definitely a story that is known and shared. Catholics raised among other orders, such as the Benedictines or the Jesuits, would probably know of Francis and the creche, by may not know the specifics.
If you are interested in the story check out Francis of Assisi: The Saint: Early Documents, Vol. 1
One of my professors edited and translated much of it.

Benne Patat
December 25, 2008
Manger its almost right,the Bible does not say,how many wisemen,just they were some..The star was where ever Jesus was. Manger is the key,where the star was.....Animals yes,and doesn't say what kind,we just take for granted,what they had in their day.Camels., Cows...Sheep...Donkeys..etc..That's how these kind got put in.. Imagination,carries..But,little did not destroy the scene..Merry Christmas....
Kathy
December 26, 2008
Thanks Malleus!

Benne,
"Manger is almost right . . ."?  I'm not sure what you are saying.  Please explain.  And Happy Day-after-Christmas!
Voice in DC
December 26, 2008
Kathy, great dialog.  As our traditions evolve (how many of us have seen the Santa bowing to the Christ in the manger?), it is so important to separate fact from myth.  There is no doubt that the Christmas event is one filled with great mystery...why would God come to this world as a baby and not as a great king?  It is a mystery pondered through the generations and never fully understood. MD's story of St Francis shows how the hearts of all so strongly seek to know why He would come this way. We have all heard the stories, the preaching, the "explanations" that offer reasons and rationale for the Creator entering the womb of a young lady...yet it remains a mystery.

Perhaps it is simply that the story is one that captures the imaginations of all - from the youngest to the oldest - a baby born amidst the chaos of the day...almost unnoticed except for some shepherds.

As an aside, it was census time in the House of David...can you imagine the hundreds and possibly thousands of people in that town at that time? Also, I wonder what the stories were about Joseph and his pregnant wife-to-be.  And, with all of those people who should have been expecting the Messiah, I find it amazing that only Simeon and Anna knew what was happening.

One final note...We have one other traditional belief that comes to us through a song Away In a Manger. I can't for a moment truly believe that "no crying He makes".
Joyce
December 28, 2008
I always love it when someone gives us food for thought.  Thanks, Kathy, for the insight.
Kathy
December 28, 2008
Excellent commentary, Voice!  Thank you!!

Thanks, Joyce!  Great to see you!  You might also enjoy my blog #91 - about a Childress great-uncle!
Barb
December 30, 2008
I'm not sure if my previous comment went through so I'll respond again. 

Did you see the movie "The Nativity Story" that came out a couple of years ago?  I thought it was very well done until the very end when suddenly all the shepherds and the magi arrived at the stable at the same time and lined up under the twinkling star above the manger!   It was still quite moving though and the point, for me, was that God came to earth for common folk (like shepherds) as well as for the seekers (such as the magi).

Thanks for that post!
Kathy
December 31, 2008

Barb, I really enjoyed that movie, much more than I expected!  I too thought it was very well done, bringing to light some of the first century customs that help us to add perspective to the wondrous story!  I saw it last year and would love to see it again anytime!

MaryBeth Lynn
January 01, 2009
I enjoy your blogs when I get an extra moment, (usually when I should be doing something else, like sleeping or cleaning) Kathy. I find myself in a head debate with myself as I notice how things are done versus what might be more accurate, and, like you, decide to focus on what really matters. And yet I still comment at times, and my children know that it isn't Jesus' actual birthday, but the celebration of His birth and life that matters. And Voice, I too, have no doubt Jesus could wail along with the best of them!!! lol! I really enjoyed an article in Charisma about "The Nativity Story" movie back when it came out and the things we hold as traditions compared with what was probably true... again, appearances versus heart issues.
Kathy
January 03, 2009
Good to see you, Mary Beth!  I agree with you.  There will always be hundreds of things to disagree about, and I enjoy an intelligent debate, but more important is that we concentrate on the essentials.  Happy 2009 to you and your family!
Judith McGee
January 17, 2009
I think our Pastor spoke on this very point this past Advent/Christmas season!