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| Recycle That Tree |
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Recycle That Tree
It's been several years since I brought a Christmas tree into my home and decorated it. It's not that I think there is something wrong with it, it's just that I personally don't celebrate Christmas in that traditional fashion any longer. I want to remind you, if you have still not removed your tree from your home, by now I am certain that it has become dry and brittle, and because of that, it is an extreme fire hazard, My advice would be to get that tree out of your home and into a recycle center ASAP!
I mention this because while on my morning train ride today, as I was reading in Psalm Chapter 1, the thought occurred to me that it is God's desire for us to be evergreen. There really should be no time in our lives when we are dormant and bearing no fruit. Not only are we to be prosperous, but our leaves, our experiences, circumstances, and life situations, even life itself, are not to ever wither, yet they are to be green and full of life all year long.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Out of curiosity, I went to the dictionary this morning in hopes of getting fresh new insight into the word "evergreen". There are some very interesting definitions indeed, but the one that spoke most to my heart was as follows:
"having green leaves throughout the entire year, the leaves of the past season not being shed until after the new foliage has been completely formed."
Wow, to me that definition, particularly the ending statement, speaks volumes. There are so many ways to apply that directly to our walk with the Lord. Does that line also speak to you? I encourage you to read that last part again, only slower, and then feel free to share what the Lord speaks to you. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
The tree you see in the first photo is in pretty rough shape, would you agree? It's in a terribly risky state and in extreme danger of being burned to a crisp. What happened to this tree to cause it's leaf to wither, for it to dry up and die. The answer is ever so simple. It became severed from the vine. Chopped down at the roots. Jesus said it like this:
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
Throw away that dead tree as soon as you possibly can my friend. Your own life and the lives of all those around you are in extreme danger because of it's dry, brittle, and withered state. One little spark and your entire world could be up in flames, and I assure you, you do not want that to happen.
Speaking of your own life, I ask you, are you becoming withered, dry, and brittle? Is there a chance that you are on the verge of being burned? Does the thought of even one little spark frighten you and send chills up your spine? The answer to that problem is simple beloved. The answer remains in the vine!
In love,
Michael |
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| To add a comment to "Recycle That Tree" |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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| I said this before and it is worth saying again.When Moses came down from the mountain there was evidence he had been in the presence of God.He was radiating light,glowing if you will.Michael at the risk of using this illustration,I say it is obvious you have been in God's presence.The good blogs,information and insight you provide has been life changing,in my case to say the least.Thank you my brother!!!(if Lori resigns from being president of your fan club I'll gladly take the position)LOL |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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"the leaves of the past season not being shed until after the new foliage has been completely formed."
So in pondering that...to me at first it meant that the new foliage would push out the old but that wouldn't go with what it is saying here...the new foliage has got to be completely formed....For a while they share the same branch...I honestly don't know if I have ever seen that except in a magnolia tree....and maybe even that is my imagination but it seems to me those old leaved don't shed until the new ones are formed as well as the flowers for the new season...I know living in the south it was the mid-late summer when Mom had us out picking those leaves off the ground...and they seemed to shed pretty continually...
The other thing I think of is in our own strength we address "loosing our foliage" or our evergreen status in different ways, hair dye, plastic surgeries, persistent diet and exercise, dressing young instead of comfortable...BUT this is NOT what the Lord is talking about...our external beauty is indeed fleeting in this life, the Lord is talking here about something that comes from within, something where we draw from Him that sustains us forever...I love the character of OLD trees they are beautiful and majestic in a way new sprouts are not, there is nothing more beautiful to me than old apple trees, Burch trees, Willows, tall pines with pine-cones, Magnolias Banyans etc., and having worked in a nursing home I can say the same about people. There is nothing that seems to bless me more than an elderly woman who loves the Lord and softly drops nuggets of wisdom when she speaks or the kindness of an old man who has seen a couple of wars and has learned to truly love his enemies in this life. There is a deep deep kindness in their eyes that just makes you feel blessed to be in their presence...may I grow old like that...
The other thing I think of is we will all be tested with fire...it is inevitable and the scripture you posted tells us how we are to be sustained..."apart from me you can do nothing"
I love what Isaiah says about that..."...when you walk through the fire, you will not be burned or scorched, nor will the flame kindle upon you. for I am the Lord your God the holy One of Israel, your Savior:..." Isaiah 43: 2-3
I don't know about you but I do want to walk through life evergreen and never consumed by fire...I don't even want to come out smelling like smoke to be honest. To be honest fire is the one thing in this life that terrifies me. I worked on a burn patient early in my career and just saw the devastation it causes..it is truly consuming and I have never been able to work with burn patients after that, it is the one area I will not touch in nursing and that was only confirmed to me when I had to be treated with them when I had a terribly infectious cellulitis, I would go into the whirlpool area daily and every single time I would pass out, I could not stomach the smell, sounds, sights or the anguish, my mom went to keep my head out of the water...I never once went without loosing consciousness. I take it very serious when I see fire, God IS the only thing that could sustain me through fire cause I would just give up the ghost so to speak...
Well Michael great blog as usual, you started me off thinking already of the Lord and His ways...thanks for that... |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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| Jimmie can't agree with you more and THAT was too funny! I will never resign from that position.... I'd have to get fired.... BUT there is always room for co-president when I'm involved...I don't need position I'm just here to encourage and can't help it when there is a good Word that goes out... |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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God is good and FAITHFUL!! |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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Been bearing lots of fruit? Then comes the pruning. For what purpose? So we'll bear more fruit! Why does pruning cause more fruit rather than less? Pruning causes the branch to draw on the source of the fruit: fruit is the precursor for a more intimate relationship with the vine and pruning is the precursor for even more fruit! Happy New Year!
Craig |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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Craig,
Do you think pruning sometimes comes from others picking the fruit to eat? See so many times we look at pruning as negative/painful...I'm just wondering what your thoughts are here...Good to see you...Lori |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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Hi Lori! I'm thinking that if you asked the branch if pruning is negative it would say "Yes! It's negative!" That is, if it were only looking at its "self." I currently believe that the pruning mentioned in John 15 represents those times in the valley--after some mountain top fruitful time--where we are forced to turn from our "self" to who we are in Him. As a baby "fleshly" Christian we tend to try to pump it up, work it up, and get into striving to make the "fruit" experience come back again instead of turning from the "wind and waves" and setting our minds on "the vine." The exposure of weakness is pruning in my current understanding. We are forced to turn to the One who is our life and strength and He produces the fruit. 4:11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad and buffeted and homeless, 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; 4:13 when slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become, and are now, as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things. One might attempt to argue that Paul lacked knowledge or faith because if he were really walking in the Spirit then we wouldn't be hungry and thirsty, homeless, etc. But my view is that this must be "and" with all those other "faith" verses to get a genuine and true perspective on what walking by faith, in the Spirit, actually is. This verse has to be taken in the context of what he writes later about glorying in weaknesses so that the power of Christ might be made perfect in him. That's why it doesn't just reduce to a simple "things that are positive are always good and are always from God" and "things that are negative are always bad and always from Satan." That, to me, is merely the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil understanding. Pruning may appear to be negative but it is actually required for fruit to increase and is therefore good. That was Paul's attitude toward weaknesses and persecution. How else could a person go to a city by the command of God, get 39 lashes and be put in stocks, and yet be singing and praising God? Most of us would fall apart like a $2 suitcase (as Andrew likes to say) if something like that happened to us. We would be wondering if our faith failed or we had missed God, etc. 15:1 " I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 15:3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 15:6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. There is a cost that must be counted to be a disciple! 14:25 Now great multitudes accompanied him; and he turned and said to them, 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 14:29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 14:30 saying, 'This man began to build, and was not able to finish.' 14:31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 14:32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace. 14:33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Dieing to all hope in self, family, position, and possession is the beginning of discipleship. It is only at that point the we begin to actually live the Christian life in all its fullness. Jesus was not and is not seeker friendly; He does not pander to the greed of man and offer us a way to control all our circumstances (and God) through our faith. He brings us the to place of humility where we believe that God causes all things to work for good. Therefore we do have admonitions from Paul to praise God for [Eph 5:20] all things and in [1 Thess 5:18] all things. Whether something is painful or negative does not determine if it is good or not; God determines if it is good or not. Some things we know are never good: the flesh, sin. But circumstances or even sickness can never, in itself, be always said to be good or bad. Sickness is always of the Devil but it may also be discipline (e.g. judgment: the Corinthians who were sick and some even died). The Corinthian man who had his own fathers wife was delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh by Paul. Was that deliverance good or bad? It was good because the result was that he would be saved in the day of the Lord by being judged in the flesh. There are other examples, in the scriptures, of things that look negative but aren't. We tend to reduce everything to back and white because we want to be in control and understand all our circumstances. Understanding comes from and depends upon the Lord, not a simplistic algorithm that hangs on some of the scriptures to the exclusion of others. Bible study alone is not the answer...a relationship with God through Christ is. ;-) Sincerely,
Craig |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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Wow, what a great discussion we have going here....I guess my question really was about how we perceive the experience of pruning "fruit" vs branches. I don't see in scripture where God says he prunes our fruit, I do believe he prunes our branches so who is the fruit for? (someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I said that without diving into the Word it is just a distinction I have noted before)
I think it is for the body honestly...Is that painful, not to me? When I share my fruit with the body and they are either enlightened or closer to God because of what I have said, I am so charged over that.. for example I LOVE it when my kids really get a spiritual principal I am trying to get across...I also love it when my girlfriends come back and say...WOW, that really helped me! For me it is actually heavy and painful when fruit is not plucked off of a branch that is bursting forth from it...I also really hate to see precious fruit laying decaying on the ground...
Now, of course there are always those people who will try and gorge on what you have never trying to bear their own fruit or cultivate their own relationship with Christ...those people will "suck you dry" and I have found in life to be weary of them....I kinda feel like the apple tree that slapped Dorothy's hand in the Wizard of Oz to be honest when it comes to those kinds....So I was asking the question with this idea forming in my brain which you could not have known....
As far as the good and bad in things, I have learned and I'm sure I will continue to learn (I believe it is a lifelong process) for the rest of my life how to see the good in a perilous situation....I mean I talked about my perspective up above in a way that fruit picking I think can be negative vs. positive and I could probably write a paper on that topic alone but I think one of the keys for us as Christians is to always look for God and what it is He is doing in our life no matter where we find ourselves...What happens on earth can happen to Christians and pagans alike it is how Christians handle things to me that should be different. I have learned that not everything comes down to something being good or bad, or negative vs. positive BUT I have also learned WHO to attribute the blatant negative to...And I think all to often God gets held accountable for what Satan has done...you also bring up an excellent point as to looking for or seeing God work the positive out of even a negative situation...
It makes me think of Paul when we get to the point of saying...to live is Christ and to die is gain how can you hold anything over someones head like that? I mean that is the bottom line isn't it? The attitude of require anything you want of me...if will be for Christ, or even take my life then I will live with Him...Ah now that is sweet release...
I agree, it isn't about works but relationship and to me it is quite clear exactly where peoples relationships are with Christ often times out of what they say and do...out of the heart the mouth speaketh...and you know people by their "fruit". Man two statements couldn't be more applicable to "blog world" because those things to me are very evident here... |
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| January 05, 2009 |
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Absolutely fantastic comments my friends!
Listen, I really do appreciate your compliments and even moreso do I appreciate having you as readers. I honestly cannot boast about the things the Lord gives me to share. I am reminded of this verse: For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
But anyway, I do indeed thank you.
I am at work and unable to respond in detail or even read all of the above in it's entirety, but I wanted to throw the following into the mix of conversation. I hope this is not a repeat.
Consider these verses:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Many people will preach that this verse is speaking of some sort of literal clipping or chastisement. Like some illness gets placed upon us or some tragedy occurs for the purpose of teaching us a lesson so we will then begin to bear more fruit.
But if you look up the word "purge" in the dictionary it will define it as "to clean". And, if you look up the word "clean", one of the definitions is "to purge. I find that very interesting, especially considering the verse that follows:
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Based on this understanding, it becomes apparent to me that the way the Lord "purges" us is not through some devastating circumstance, or some supposed God-given tragedy. Yet we are clean, and continue to be cleaned by a wonderful washing of the Word!
Hey, gotta go!
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| January 05, 2009 |
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For scripture to call God the husbandman is interesting to me too, that word in itself makes me want to look it up....
I love how you followed those verses with the reason you do...you know it just doesn't make sense to me as a parent to think your going to teach your kids something by putting a disease on them, or sending them a hard circumstance, letting one of their children die, or for them to go broke and be busted and disgusted. I know there are so many ways to learn something and I believe God really tries to teach us things the loving way, I just do. I also know scripture says a few more things on this topic, like we love Him because he loved us first AND it also says we who are even evil know how to give our children good gifts HOW MUCH MORE does God give us...I think we can all agree that although we might learn something from a circumstance God doesn't wish true hardship on us (like the death of a child for example), I just will never believe that...
Michael, the reason I respond to you the way I do IS because of your genuineness and how it is apparent you know and love the Lord....I love your perspective and wisdom...It is just that simple...
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| January 06, 2009 |
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| Michael, Lori and everyone: All very interesting points and my only question would be, and is, how does this all line up with everything in the scriptures—especially the New Covenant—that speaks to the subject. The context of John 15 defines the type of cleansing that is taking place. Jesus grew up in an agricultural community and spoke using idioms that are clearly understood by farmers and vinedressers. Have you ever had a grape vine? I have and I can assure you that the cleansing isn't the picking of the fruit but the pruning of the branch…not the removal of the branch. Lori, I was not speaking to God teaching an individual a lesson by putting a disease on them, but to the fact that for a Christian judgment and disciple are the same thing…they serve a purpose. One disciplines a disobedient child not just for his sake but also that the other children might avoid the same mistake. Do we see any examples of this in the New Covenant? Yes! Plenty! The bottom line is that anything that is "true" in the scripture is not necessarily the "truth" when it is taken to an extreme by completely disregarding all other things that speak to the same subject and are also "true." Luther's hatred of James is a perfect example: faith apart from works vs. faith with works. One of those true things taken alone as being the truth is an error. Taken together they are "truth." One taken to the exclusion of the other is a deception and leads to error. Why did Jesus tell Peter: "Satan has demanded that you be sifted like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith will not fail?" What lesson was Peter to learn from that? What did he learn? Was the "lesson" for him alone or for every believer who would ever read the account also? Who shifted Peter like wheat and what was the result? Why did Peter confront Ananias and Sapphira? Did the lesson benefit Ananias and Sapphira? Did the lesson benefit the Assembly? How? Why did Paul deliver a number of people over to Satan? Was that a benefit for them personally? Was that also a "lesson" for the assemblies? How? Here are the various scriptures associated with the first example: Luke 22:31-34 (ESV)
31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." 33 Peter said to him, "Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death." 34 Jesus said, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me." Please note Peter's response to the revelation! Peter is self confident! Peter is saying to Jesus that although everyone else may abandon Jesus, he will be the exception! Now who was it that actually went in with Jesus when he was questioned? It was John. And do we see any statements from John about how he would never abandon the Lord? So what was the result of this sifting? I believe John shows us: John 21:15-19 (Amplified Bible)
15 When they had eaten, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these [others do--with reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion, as one loves the Father (Craig: agape)]? He said to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You [that I have deep, instinctive, personal affection for You, as for a close friend (Craig: phileo)]. He said to him, Feed My lambs. 16 Again He said to him the second time, Simon, son of John, do you love Me [with reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion, as one loves the Father]? He said to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You [that I have a deep, instinctive, personal affection for You, as for a close friend]. He said to him, Shepherd (tend) My sheep. 17 He said to him the third time, Simon, son of John, do you love Me [with a deep, instinctive, personal affection for Me, as for a close friend]? Peter was grieved (was saddened and hurt) that He should ask him the third time, Do you love Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know everything; You know that I love (Craig: phileo) You [that I have a deep, instinctive, personal affection for You, as for a close friend]. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep. 18 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, when you were young you girded yourself [put on your own belt or girdle] and you walked about wherever you pleased to go. But when you grow old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will put a girdle around you and carry you where you do not wish to go. 19 He said this to indicate by what kind of death Peter would glorify God. And after this, He said to him, Follow Me! [Craig: Isn't it here that we would say: "Get behind me Satan! Jesus has already been crucified for me, I'm not going to be crucified!"] The sifting broke Peter's self confidence. He came to know that in his self all he would ever be capable of is the best that a human being can do and that is brotherly love not God's love! So who did the sifting, how was it done, and for what purpose? We belong to Christ there are no secondary causes for us. Watchman Nee calls this an example of the breaking of the outward man. I interpret it as delivering us from our self. Sometimes God does it with a word only and at other times more than words are required, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. In my understanding they were judged in the flesh that they might not be condemned along with the world but the lesson was for the other believers. The end result was: Acts 5:11-14 (ESV)
11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things. 12 Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. 13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women Great fear, respect, reverence for the truth. Do you think anyone else attempted to walk in the steps of Ananias and Sapphira? What was the practical result of this negative event? Was it a benefit for the believers? Do we have this same fear today? Why or why not? The bottom line is that sickness is, sometimes, discipline [judgment] and it has a purpose, not only to those who are sick [or fall asleep] but also for the rest of us. Where is this in the scripture you ask? Here: 1 Corinthians 11:29-34 (ESV)
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another— 34 if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come. It isn't the truth to say that all sickness is discipline! But neither it is it truth to say that sickness cannot be discipline. Most faith teachers take things to an extreme and for that reason we must be careful to look at everything that is being said in the whole New Covenant. [I could keep going…but who would read it all. LOL!] Yours in Him,
Craig |
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| January 06, 2009 |
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Craig...WOW I just love all your commentary...I'm going to first address this and how I view it...
1 Corinthians 11:29-34 (ESV)
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
To me the answer is right there...if we eat and drink without discerning the body...what does that mean to you? To me it means we don't perceive what Christ did on the Cross, we just miss the totality of Christs sacrifice..If we don't have the understanding that Christ died on the cross not just for our sins to to heal sickness and diseases in us...then guess what we can get weak, ill and even die, but it doesn't change the fact Christ died still atoned for those things....it is our lack of understanding or discerning that ends in weakness, illness and death even. Now, are those hard words for some to swallow, yep they are...and some will never discern them to me it still doesn't change the facts of what Christ did....Further more if a statement is absolutely true (and lets just say we believe the Bible to be absolutely true for the sake of argument) then the converse of that statement is also true...in saying that you could rephrase the above statement to say:
For anyone who eats and drinks with discerning the body eats and drinks no judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are not weak and ill, and dying.
The other thing I will address is the understanding that as Christians and acting as such we are equipped to learn from whatever situation we find ourselves in BUT I truly don't believe God intends for many of us to find ourselves in some of the situations we have, we bring things on ourselves many times and then expect God to swoop in and fix it all...To many that is what being a Christian is all about...it is about God fixing our messes...well guess what we all have some responsibility to bear and if we are to grow as Christians we better figure out what that responsibility is and stop the mess from happening...I think that is when we indeed come off the bottle and begin to eat solid food....
I totally agree with looking at the WHOLE and esp the New Covenant, the body has gotten into lots of trouble by taking one scripture and running with it, in fact that is generally how cults can form, but I think what needs to be adjusted for so many is just their view on God our Father in general. Do you believe he is sitting on the throne anticipating your mistakes then bopping you over the head for making them or letting Satan reek havoc in your life because you did make mistakes, or do you know Him to be someone who truly equips the saints to live a righteous life to begin with. I personally believe he has already equipped me for EVERY GOOD work....BUT if I want to I can trust in getting weak, and ill and dying sick but I think everyone who reads me knows...I'm not going down that road...
Now I'm going for the rest here...
Why did Peter confront Ananias and Sapphira? Did the lesson benefit Ananias and Sapphira? Did the lesson benefit the Assembly? How? Once Christ died and imparted to each of us the Holy Spirit we have the ability to discern things, people can look up spiritual gifts and such as they desire but I'm not going into a lengthy discussion on that right now. The bottom line is Peter knew the truth of Ananias and Sapphira's deception through the Holy Spirit. At that time the church was going through upheaval in the society it was in...congregations were giving up and selling all they had and pooling their resources for everyone sake, the message here is don't think your going to do something in secret and not have your sins find you out, and sometimes those sins will cost you your life...did it benefit Ananias and Sapphira? Doesn't death benefit all Christians? Did the lesson benefit all that assembly? Hopefully....it was a pretty clear message... Why did Paul deliver a number of people over to Satan? Was that a benefit for them personally? Was that also a "lesson" for the assemblies? How? God himself give us guidelines as to not even sit down and break bread with certain people, and many of those people are "in" the body of Christ today...The Word clearly tells us turning someone over to Satan allows them to turn and repent...see it is not the same serving Jesus and Satan, Satan is strictly here to kill, steal, and destroy there is no grace or mercy in his dealings, there is no lesson learned hard enough, for Satan wants your soul...sometimes we need to be reminded of that...no one can turn someone back to Christ better than Satan that has gone astray...How is that a lesson to the assemblies? It is a painful one but the truth is life can NOT dwell with darkness. I know this lesson all too well...and I will share a personal story here. My real father was truly a menace as a father and as a man. I can't tell you the countless stitches, broken bones and injuries I suffered at his hands when I was a little girl...BUT through Gods grace I learned forgiveness...and man I really learned it too..he now suffers from metastatic colon cancer, he was given six months to live in April of last year at the most, he is now on borrowed time. He came to visit during Christmas...Now, I am a nurse and and nurse practitioner, I have worked with the dying for many years...in fact I developed a "good death" protocol at a nursing home and hospital I worked in as it seems this was just an area I was gifted in...I go in and talk to the dying, I help them to tie up unresolved issues with family, themselves, and God...I asked my father a simple question..."Do you have any regrets" and he said to me, "NO, I was a PERFECT father, employee and have done lots of things others never get to do in life, I have lived a good life" OK admittedly I was taken aback, no one is a perfect parent ever or an employee for that matter...so then I asked him how are you sitting when it comes to your faith where do you stand with God? "I don't believe in God, He never did a damn thing for me to help me out so how am I to believe He even exists" So when you die dad where will you go? "I won't go anywhere...we just die" Craig all I could do was say OK and turn him over to Satan (not that he hasn't already been with him for a while) but I can also pray that in this last part of his existence somehow he will come to repentance...I can do no more. Do people really know how horribly painful it is to do that? This man is my father and I have never been so convinced anyone was going to hell like I am him, I can't tell you how shaken I was or how much I have cried over his peril because unlike him I know there is a heaven and therefore a hell, eternity is a long time to suffer....all I can do is hope and pray he comes to repentance....see no matter what someone has done to us if you have Christs heart towards them you still wish they would not perish...it is a painful reality...it is just heavy... BUT does what Paul says somehow comfort me, yes it does, because it would be easy to make myself sick literally with worry over this mans soul and I would always trying to intervene...sometimes people need the knife stuck in and turned for them to cry out for mercy...Satan is the best at doing that...and all I can say is God help you and I hope that if this man does cry out for the Lord one day I find out about it...and that is where this is left....so you have my how in real time...
Alright for now I'm done, lunch break is over but those are my thoughts on what you have posted....Craig I love your insight and your depth...In Him, Lori |
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| January 06, 2009 |
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Lori, everyone: Lori you wrote: To me the answer is right there...if we eat and drink without discerning the body...what does that mean to you? Well, I didn't include the whole context of 1 Corinthians 11. :-) I believe the key is the following verses: 11:20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 11:28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. So in this particular case it was the "manner" in which they were eating the break and drinking the cup. This is described in first verses; they were stuffing themselves and getting drunk! [This also is a very clear indication that the Lord's Table was a complete dinner and not just some crackers and an individual portion of wine]. The verses that follow my previous quote in the other blog comment make things even clearer [to me]: 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another-- 11:34 if any one is hungry, let him eat at home-- lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come. In my current understanding it wasn't the elements of the meal that they did not discern...it was the physical body of Christ...which is the other believers! We are the body of the Lord and the physical members of His body [the earthly one]. So, the reason they were judged [disciplined as Paul said] was because they were thinking only of themselves in partaking of this meal. The other verses you didn't speak to were verses 31 and 32 which clearly place the responsibility on us to judge ourselves. The other thing that fascinates me about this whole event is the fact that ignorance was no excuse; although I would have "and" the various extremes of the discipline (weakness, sickness, death) with the level their understanding (e.g. the amount of light they had been given). That would square with the following: 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 12:48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. As for turning someone over to Satan...it seems clear that if someone doesn't know the Lord then he is already under Satan's authority [see Ephesians 2]. Every person that Paul delivered up was delivered as a believer and for the sake of discipline [judgment] so they wouldn't be condemned along with the world. There is a lot to think about here too. First, their own sin didn't deliver them up; second their relationship with Christ did not mean that they wouldn't be condemned along with the world otherwise Paul wouldn't have thought it necessary to deliver them up in the first place! [Another blog, another time. :-) Too long already! LOL!] Yours in Him,
Craig |
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| January 06, 2009 |
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Craig to make a long post shorter I will just say this I still think discernment of the body of Christ is understanding what he did on the cross....if you understand that you won't partake of it in a glutenous manner for example, you won't just swallow it down without thinking, and you should remember what that death on the cross did for you... Although this scripture gives candid real life implications here and tells us how to not partake in the "body" (and I believe it is referring to communion not the body of believers) I think there are deep spiritual insinuations here that are applicable to us all today. BUT that is how I see this scripture...
As far as turning someone over to Satan....my Dad at one time was a professed Christian and lead others to the Lord...and your right no need to turn them over if they have already turned themselves over, which to me it is clear he has done. He is among MANY "Christan's" who were in it for what they could get and when they don't get what they think is due them then they go their own way....God also eventually gives people over to their perverse way of thinking...My Dad has heard the Word, many times...he has had multiple opportunities, he is not a man going to hell because he never heard the Word in that case I would be preaching to him, he is a man choosing hell because he denies Christ and our Father...which is right along the lines of that other blog your talking about...wow...so now talking about needing to stay evergreen... |
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