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| Apart from "me", "you" can do nothing |
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Hi everyone! In another blog on MyChurch about New Years Resolutions the blog author made the following statement: "The devil annually uses the ruse of New Years Day to entrap and discourage believers and non-believers alike. Every year millions optimistically list the bad habits they intend to cease, and the good practices they intend to start, as of New Years Day. When the effort to change eventually fails, we subsequently feel powerless, defeated, and depressed. The perception of another great opportunity to change ourselves lost, we resign ourselves and sink deeper into the pit of self-condemnation. Defeated, they cry, “It’s useless, I’ll never change!” The devil couldn’t be happier than when people, especially believers, become entrapped in a life of failure and futility!!" The person we were in "Adam" cannot be changed or reformed...that's why we were put to death in Christ. The miracle is: God transferred us out of Adam and put us into Christ! So that we can actually say that we were executed with him and have been raised a new creation with and in Him. God will do nothing with the Old Man except put him to death (all in Adam must die). Abiding "in Christ" means, among other things, that we believe that we have become partakers of the Divine Nature through Christ and that He himself is now our life. Christ does not sin and if we abide in him neither will we. Learning to do that is the great adventure! The above quoted "commitment" or "resolution" is exactly the same thing as law. It is an appeal to self dependence to change the nature of "the flesh." The flesh cannot and never will change...its deeds are put to death by walking by the Spirit. As it is written, if we walk by the Spirit we will not "carry out" the desires of the flesh. That is the only way out! It is a change of identity and a change of expectation! We do not expect "self" to be good, but we expect Christ in us to be good. If we are ignorant of the realities of who we are "in Christ" (what things we are dead to in him and what things we are alive to in him) then we will live as mere men and Paul would call us "carnal" or fleshly Christians (1 Corinthians). This adventure is made more difficult by the fact that most Christian teaching speaks to trying to reform the flesh rather than walk by the Spirit: letting the One who is good live through us. He was and is the only one who can actually live the Christian life. If we could live it (like following an algorithm or set of instructions) then we would end up having something to boast about...but "let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!" I am also reminded of something that Major W. Ian Thomas wrote in one of his books (probably in The Mystery of Godliness): [paraphrase] "It is not the activity itself that determines if it is a "good work" but the originator of the activity." Building churches, teaching, preaching, evangelism, giving, etc., are all done by every religion in the world. It is quite obvious, when we take the time to reflect upon it, that those things are being done in the flesh; in the strength and gifts that men have been given the first time they were born (e.g. who we are in ourselves). Jesus points out in many places that the flesh profits nothing; that apart from him we can do nothing. Obviously that means that anything we do from our own ability or from our own initiative is nothing! It is being done in vain! Paul likewise, in many places and in various ways points out the fact that what he did was not what "he" did...but what Christ "accomplished through me," as he wrote. It is so very important to understand that any given activity [or song for that matter], no matter how good it may appear to be in itself, will not affect a spiritual result unless it is being done at the initiative of, and in the power of, the Spirit. "'Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit', says the Lord!" Best regards,
Craig |
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| To add a comment to "Apart from "me", "you" can do nothing" |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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| How true.....the only thing we have to do is to reckon ourselves dead He does the rest. |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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I watched a video of Katheryn Kullman last night where she talks about knowing the spot, the time, the day she died and said all she had to give to the Lord was her love...pretty powerful stuff....why don't we have preachers like that anymore....?
Great blog Craig, In Him, Lori |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Kudos to you Brother Craig, the preacher man! And when will you be writting your book...I'll be one of the first ones to buy!!! This is truely what Galatians speaks about when Paul states that I make myself a transgressor when I try to do it on my on apart from Christ. This week the Lord has really had me meditationg on Gal 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." KJV
I just can't get away from it and here you are today reinforcing what the Spirit is speaking to my spirit. I'll be ministering next Wednesday on this topic so keep me in your prayers please, that I might allow Chirst to speak through me! God Bless! |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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That is a real good word my brother!
And the good news is.....that we are not apart from Him, therefore we can do all things through Christ who strengthened us!
And....
If all the good deeds I performed before I was born of the incorruptible seed couldn't make me righteous. Then likewise, now that I have been born of the incorruptible seed, none of the bad habits or negative actions I now perform can make unrighteous.
Life is not a one-sided coin! |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Hummm Michael, you wrote: ...now that I have been born of the incorruptible seed, none of the bad habits or negative actions I now perform can make unrighteous. This could lead to a lengthy discussion. :-) Hebrews 10:12-14 (ESV)
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Do you mean that the preceding verse means that other verses like 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." do not apply to believers; that there is no consequence for willful sins? What happens if we do not confess known sins? [Note that the verse is speaking of "sins" and not "sin" and is therefore speaking things that we've done.] Craig |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Hi Craig,
You're right, it could be a very lengthy discussion. But I'll have to say that it's not one I will be participating in. The point I was making Craig is that God doesn't move in our lives based upon our actions. Because in our spirit, all things have been made new, and because we have been reconciled to God, He is no longer imputing our trespasses against us.
That too requires a lot of explanation and I have two blogs that I discuss these things in detail, the way I understand them. Hence, I will not be participating in a lengthy conversation here.
The first: A Can Of Worms With The Lid Popped Off
And this one: Spirit, Soul, & Body
Much of what is in those blogs won't be new to you Craig but I am sure it will be to many. They do represent what I believe, or at least believed at the time I wrote them and for now I am sticking with it.
As far as your verse 1 John 1:9, I honestly believe this is speaking of our human righteousness. I think there are two types of righteousness. One that we have to live by in order to get by with other people, and then our spiritual righteousness that comes not through those things which we do, or don't do, yet resides within our born-again, joined to the Lord spirit.
Our acts of sin are indeed horrible. They hurt us and the others around us. They give the devil an inroad to wreak havoc in our lives. Sin is not good. And we need to be cleansed from then for our well-being and the well-being of others. I truly believe that this verse it referring to cleansing us from the sins that so easily beset us. Like weights they slow us down but they do not keep us from running the race. Or, cleansing us from our earthy unrighteousness so that we can live more fully for God.
Confessing them is important. It's like us giving God the invitation to perform that cleansing for us. He is a gentlemen, He stands at the door and lightly knocks. He won't kick the door down. When we ask him, by means of confessing and admitting our weakness, it is then that He is able to work from within and make us strong.
What happens when we don't confess known sins? The devil will have a field day planting thoughts of unworthiness into our minds. Once those thoughts have been planted, he can just sit back and watch us torment our own selves from guilt and shame. However, the devil cannot hold us in bondage to that which we willingly and openly admit. The power is instantly gone out of his scam once it has been brought to the surface, confessed!
Anyway, lunch is over and in order for me to keep my right standing (human righteousness) with my employer, I need to get some work done!
Have a great day folks!
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Craig,
Let me say that I didn't intend for my comment to come across as rude. It's not that I don't want to participate in a conversation with you. You are a wise man and I value your opinions. And I enjoy reading what you have to say. It's just that I feel as though I have stated my views not only in those two blogs but others as well.
And quite frankly, I don't really have the time in the next few days to get into a long discussion. I am studying in some other areas right now and don't want to crowd my thoughts. I have a thinking problem remember?
You can be sure I'll be reading what others have to say though.
Michael |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Michael, thanks for elaborating! You wrote: As far as your verse 1 John 1:9, I honestly believe this is speaking of our human righteousness. I think there are two types of righteousness. That's a perspective that I haven't heard before. I know some exchanged life folks that think 1 John 1:9 doesn't apply to believers. I'll also just say--for other readers--neither is a place I can go in my current understanding; as far as I know the two types of righteousness the scripture speaks to is the righteousness based upon law and the righteousness based upon faith. Further I believe I really understand why you believe this, and it's because Andrew Wommack seems to imply it, although I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe in once-saved-always-saved in the sense that a genuine Christian can't ever fall away from the Lord. I'll just say--for other readers--that I can't come to the conclusion that Andrew does about it being impossible to affect our regenerated spirit man because of verses like this: 2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. And even an earlier verse in 1 John 1: 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. In this verse "sin" is being spoken to and not "sins." As Watchman Nee so effectively points out in his book The Normal Christian Life, even Paul divides the earlier chapters of Romans that speak to "sins" from later ones that speak to the source, "sin." This will just be one of those areas where we'll agree to disagree. :-D I'm sure we're all convinced in our own hearts before the Lord and that's what counts! Blessings!
Craig |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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2 Cor 7:1 is an interesting verse indeed. And now, that I am participating so to speak, I'll spend some time on that one.
I am not a OSAS advocate either. Hebrews 6 talks in great detail of how we can definitely lose our salvation.
What's your take on this verse?
1 Corinthians 6:17 KJV:
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
If you believe this verse, and we are one spirit, as in to the exclusion of another, with the Lord Jesus. Then I ask you, can your spirit sin? |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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:-) Michael, you wrote: If you believe this verse, and we are one spirit, as in to the exclusion of another, with the Lord Jesus. Then I ask you, can your spirit sin? I believe it. No Jesus cannot sin and He is our life. For me it isn't a question of whether He sin's or not but whether my spirit--even though it is one spirit--can be defiled as 2 Cor 7:1 is saying. In the first place I accept all these verses as being absolutely "true" but they must all be taken together to be "truth." Even then a new rehama may impact my current understanding. Admittedly, the fact the our spirit has been saved, our soul is being saved, and our body will be saved tension all fits in. Some state that you cannot fall away because you cannot become un-one with the Lord or un-born-again. But, for me, this clearly doesn't line up with the follow: Romans 11:17-23 (ESV)
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. At the same time I had a genuine born-again experience when I was in the 11th grade but when persecution arose I fell away. For the next 8 years it was like that had never happened, it was completely removed from my memory. When I came to the Lord 8 years later it was only then that I remembered the first experience. That isn't scripture of course...but it sure does line up with it in my understanding of it. :-) There is so much here (Paul turning people over to Satan for judgment so that they wouldn't perish, etc.) that I'll say I'm sure open to further revelation! I just know that all these various things are "true", and the Lord has not shown me anywhere where I am trying to explain away any scriptures because they don't agree with what I currently and sincerely believe to be the "truth." I'll say that there are more places where I can go with Andrew Wommack than not...but I've never found but One Man who has a corner on the Truth. :-) Best regards,
Craig |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Thank you for this great teaching. "The flesh cannot and never will change...its deeds are put to death by walking by the Spirit." is so true. I have never been able to kill my own fleshly needs by will power...God has to help me and help me every day. |
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| January 09, 2009 |
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Craig,
Have you read Andrews commentary for 2 Cor 7:1 by chance?
Since we have brought his teaching into this conversation, I am going to post it here for all to decipher. Feel free to delete it if you choose.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Note 11 at 2 Cor. 7:1: On the surface, this verse looks like it is in contradiction to other scriptures that present the born-again spirit as being perfect and complete (see note 3 at Mt. 26:41, p. 507; see note 11 at Rom. 8:23, p. 800; see note 9 at Rom. 12:2, p. 826), with no filthiness to be cleansed of. However, closer examination will reveal that this is not speaking of our born-again (see note 2 at Jn. 3:3, p. 92) spirit having filthiness.
The word "therefore" links this verse to the previous verses. Paul's statements about cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit are a continuation of what he had said in the previous verses about separating ourselves from unbelievers.
Notice also that Paul did not say, "cleanse yourself OF all filthiness of the flesh and spirit" but "FROM all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." This is speaking of separating ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit of others. All the previous promises were dependent upon separation from others' ungodliness.
Someone might say, "What does it mean to separate ourselves from the filthiness of others' spirits?" The word "spirit" not only describes the innermost part of our being, but it also is used to describe an attitude (see note 6 at Rom. 12:11, p. 830; see note 5 at 1 Cor. 16:18, p. 971). Strong defines the Greek word "pneuma," which was translated "spirit" here, as meaning, "mental disposition." When people speak of "school spirit," they are not referring to a spiritual personality, but rather an attitude. Likewise, Paul is saying we need to separate ourselves from the defilement of unbelievers, not only physically, but in our attitudes, or way of thinking, also.
Paul now states that since we have these promises of the indwelling of God's presence, the promise to receive us, to live in us, to be our Father, to be our God, and we His people (6:16-18), we should purge ourselves away from any defilement caused by walking after the flesh, or defilement caused by ungodly spiritual unions (6:14-17). We are to walk separated unto God in godly reverence and fear (7:1).
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I agree with you in that I don't buy everything that Andrew teaches, but I do a majority of it. This commentary here is going to drive me to do some studying of my own I assure you!
Doesn't Romans 11:23 speak of unbelief which is THE sin? (John 16:9), and that's how we could become cut off?
I honestly do believe that we can denounce the Lord, or I guess you could say fall prey to unbelief. And this is rather difficult to harmonize with being joined to the Lord. I just don't believe that our actions are what cause this. I am believing for a greater revlation in these things as well.
But anyway, if our actions are what saves us, and are acts of sin can take that away, then in essense don't we become our own saviors?
I am catching an early train home today! YOu have gotta love Fridays!
See ya Craig!
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| January 09, 2009 |
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The problem I have with Andrew's interpretation is that it almost entirely depends upon the words "from" and “therefore.” The translation of the Greek word in the text associated with this English word is entirely a matter of language interpretation rather than language translation.
From the Greek-English dictionary:
ἀπό preposition with genitive case from; away from; by means of; of; because of, as a result of; since, ever since; about, for; with; ἀπὸ μᾶς πάντες one after another, one and all (Lk 14:18)
The translator's could just as easily have translated it "of."
2 Corinthians 7:1 ( ESV )
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
“Since” is one of the choices for how the Greek word interpreted “therefore” can be interpreted. So it is not cut and dried whether the Greek “Therefore” is pointing to “these promises” or the preceding Chapter. I don’t think it points back because it does not then fit with 1 Corinthians 5, which makes it clear that those we are to especially separate ourselves from are “believers” who are in gross sin, not unbelievers.
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers” is, in my understanding, referring to covenant relationships. Clearly it couldn’t mean an existing spouse who is an unbeliever [1 Cor. covers that] or people in general because of the what Paul also taught in 1 Corinthians 5 and all the other verses that speak to believers who are walking by the flesh, such as:
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 ( ESV )
This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them—since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
Or even:
Philippians 3:17-18 ( ESV )
Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
All these types of verses seem completely inconsistent with the concept of our having a spirit that cannot be defiled. What is the point? So I can say that my bad habits don’t concern God? Or that I shouldn’t be concerned about them? Confession takes care of that fear; as long as I call sin what it is then God will be faithful to cleanse me! I can only think that that concept leads to what you said in your first statement: “...now that I have been born of the incorruptible seed, none of the bad habits or negative actions I now perform can make unrighteous.”
Does God have a problem with believers continuing in sin? It’s obvious that He does from Romans 1 all the way through the warnings to the churches in Revelations. If my spirit cannot be defiled then the Holy Spirit cannot be grieved—how could he be?
All that being said, I’ll say that Andrew’s interpretation is completely logical and appears to make perfect sense, until you include more than the immediate context (Paul wrote more than one letter to the Corinthians for example). He is completely logical in his interpretation of 2 Corinthians 7:1.
For me, this just points to the fact that we all can find a completely reasonable and consistently logical explanation for anything that appears to be a contradiction to our theology. This of course very definitely includes me. I have absolutely no fear of being wrong because I am not a worshipper of my current understanding, but of the Person who the Truth; and His Father! I’d also like to point out the fact that even Andrew himself has had many experiences where his understanding has changed. What I appreciate about him is the fact that he has a reason for what he believes and that he is completely committed to walking in the light of it. It’s just a fact that he had that same approach when he held beliefs that he now believes are completely wrong [Demonology, power of Satan, etc.]! And that is what I really appreciate about Andrew!!! He is not afraid to tell you about his past mistakes and errors in thinking! That being said, I don’t believe that he or anyone else has arrived and has a corner on the truth.
I just can’t buy into the fact that a perfect sacrifice and our perfection in Him means that we can willfully sin and not come under judgment. If perfection in Christ means that God is not concerned with how we walk that perfection out then there would be a great many passages of the New Testament that Paul and company would not have penned.
Michael you reasonably ask:
But anyway, if our actions are what saves us, and are acts of sin can take that away, then in essense don't we become our own saviors?
Faith is an action so I may reasonably argue that our deeds do save us as some of the writers in the New Testament do.
1 Peter 1:17 ( ESV )
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile
So we know from everything else that is written that these “deeds” are “good deeds” and “good deeds” are God initiated deeds performed by God, in Christ, through us, by faith. There are no contradictions. But neither is there a genuine faith that does not result in “good deeds!” :-)
The admonition to be really concerned with really is 1 John 1:9. What is the danger of having a perspective that removes its significance?
1 John 1:7-9 ( ESV )
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
From can always also be interpreted as of. But look closely at how “sin” and “sins” are spoken to in the scriptures. Something to ponder! :-)
The one sacrifice that was made for all time will “cleanse” [not cover] us from [or of] all unrighteousness if we confess or sins. If we will not confess our sins then we will be disciplined [judged] by God, in this life [again 1 Corinthians 10] and we can even get to Hebrews 6 and/or Hebrews 10. The first part of 1 Corinthians 10 is also an admonishment not to depend the fact that we have been put in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit and therefore don’t have to be concerned with whether we sin or not. That chapter ends with the explanation about why some were judged in Corinth and about how we are to judge ourselves so we will not be judged! All of these things are ‘true’ and must therefore fit with those things that are in Hebrews 10 [10:14] about: those who are being sanctified He has made perfect forever by one offering. Don’t you find it curious that right after that statement he tells us about the danger of falling away [10:26-31] and about God’s vengeance!
You know, it sounds exactly like Romans 6 [How can we continue in sin?] followed by Romans 7; the first verses of 1 John 1 followed by the latter verses!
I think the bottom line is: we are perfect in Christ and therefore we must walk out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who is in us both to will and to do of his Good pleasure. That perfection is not an indication that we cannot be judged or that God is unconcerned with our carnality. The perfection statements are always followed by warnings to encourage us to “abide” in that perfection. We tend to rationalize our sins and justify them in advance. If we have truly been set free from “sin” as Romans clearly teaches then there is no justification to continue in “sins” and therefore we have the very serious warnings of Romans 8!
Romans 8:12-13 ( ESV )
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Grace includes not only our cleansing from sin but also our freedom from it: in this life. Any doctrine that ends up justifying our continuance in known sin is a deception. How can we who died to sin continue to live in it: ignorance or deception!
Very long story short Michael, I just can’t see a way to reconcile what Andrew believes concerning this particular subject, with all these other things. It is not a condemnation of Him! I don’t believe everything that Ian Thomas, Malcolm Smith, Derek Prince, or Andrew Wommack says…but that list of men have been used by the Lord more than any other in my life! He’s not going to let us boast in MEN! All are servants of Christ but God gets the glory; only one Man is the Truth! :-)
Sorry it’s so long! Couldn’t think of a way to make it shorter; I’m not trying to be right, I’m trying to explain where I’m at in this. ;-)
Your brother in Him,
Craig |
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| January 10, 2009 |
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You make a good point Craig and I admire that.
And, I understand the things you say, that's important. I, nor Andrew, in any way, advocates a lifestyle of wilful sins. For if we are walking in, empowered by, and cognizant of the life force, the perfect and incorruptible spirit of the Lord within us, then we will not sin.
The argument we seem to be having is whether that incorruptible seed within us, is truly incorruptible. I suppose I would have to say that if we are living life in the reverse order of faith, then we could and more than likely would be at risk for "falling away"..
It's easy to see why Paul presupposed this question 4 times in the book of Romans, as to what then, shall we continue to live in sin? I agree with Andrew in the fact that if people are not asking you that question, then you are not preaching the same Gospel that Paul did.
When I speak on things of this nature I am not merely relying on Andrews teachings alone. You see I walked this Christian walk on my own for the first two years of my born-again life. Just me and the Word. God showed me some great things in those two years and truly changed my life. He did it. Not me. I could compose a list several lines long about the things, desires, habits, thought patterns, behavior patters, etc., that have dropped from me. Jesus truly changed my "Want To". Andrews teachings for me only add confirmation to what the Lord has already been speaking to me.
I don't think most people realize just how often they really do sin. We tend to place sin into categories. Big sins and little sins. We, as Christians, are way too often comparing ourselves amongst ourselves and by ourselves. I have been set free from sin. Not set free to sin. It no longer has any power in my life. And I can tell you that it certain did at one time, in a big way.
If we truly were sin conscious, we would be spending an awful lot of time asking for forgiveness. We break the speed limit, we gossip, we don't always love others the way we should. We don't help the poor like we should,we don't lay hands on sick people every-time the opportunity presents itself. We tell little white lies. We don't worship each time in spirit and in truth. That list could go on for days. Sins are not just those things we do but also those things we fail to do. Anything that we know to do that is right, and then we don't do it, that's a sin.
If we really, really payed close attention to all those things, then it would not be long at all before we would develop an overwhelming feeling of unworthiness and we would definitely begin to doubt that God could or would ever use us. That's not being free from sin. That's being sin conscious.
Anyway, I have to run out for a bit and I am not supposed to be participating in this discussion anyway! :)
Believe with your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and then don't commit any sins, and you shall be saved. That's not good news!
Michael |
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| January 10, 2009 |
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Oh, and unless I missed it, you did not address the word "pneuma" as it applies to Andrew's commentary. I think his explanation of that term also plays a big part in support of his theory.
It makes me really, really curious now as to how many times the word spirit has different definitions, or was used differently. Considering all the times that word is used in the new testament alone, that could be a very lenghy study. How would one go about deciphering all that Craig? Is it true that the word spirit has different applications and means different things in different places? Of course I understand that any time the word is capitalized, it is referring to the Holy Spirit, but what about all the lower case usages?
Any thoughts on that? |
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| January 10, 2009 |
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Sin consciousness is a big problem and it happens because we focus on our self. Watchman Nee speaks to this problem very effectively in his book The Normal Christian Life. It was a problem that affected me for a quite a few years because I was aware of those little things (like the speed limit, my response to a beautiful women jogging, being in front of me at church, etc.). Very long story on all that.
I'll just say that I do not believe the answer is a doctrine that allows me to be comfortable with those "little" sins; and it isn't a bad thing to recognize where we are falling short. The problem is that, in our heart, we do not believe that the blood of Jesus, the sacrifice of God's Son, is sufficient. We can get to the place where we get tired of confessing those little sins (a sin is anything that we believe to be a sin as it says in Romans 14). Anytime we become conscious of sin the answer is not to discount it and sweep it under the rug in effect saying that it doesn't matter because of who I am in Christ.
There is definitely a struggle we get into if we don't justify our little sins...but the fact is we also come to realize that we do not really want to be doing them. We learn about what the difference is between flesh and spirit, we are also brought into a place where we realize that if Romans 6 isn't true and other verses aren't true, then there is no hope of ever being free from actually performing all those things that we believe are sins. [e.g. is speeding always a sin? What about going with the flow of traffic? These are all questions that get answered for us as we wait before the Lord with respect to what our conscience might be saying to us...long discussion...not going there now. :-) I don't put Christians stickers on my car so I won't be a stumbling block to those who think I'm going too slow or for those who would condemn me for going too fast. Peace rules!]
I don't want to speed, I don't want to lust after women walking down the road, I don't want to lust after a women sitting in front of me at Church, etc. The answer is not denying or justifying the acts that are prompted by the sin that dwells in my members...the answer is to remain focused on the One who dwells within, the One who is good...He does not lust after women, and He knows when it's God's will to speed or not, etc. :-) It's just a fact that the scripture also say that those who have ceased from sin have suffered in the flesh. There is a battle, and it is intense at times, and we do fail at times, but the battle is a battle of faith and it is about renewing our mind. I do not have to sin. I am dead to sin. But if I do sin, I confess it and God is faithful and just to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. The answer is not to somehow ignore the little foxes that spoil the vine!
I believe, that as we focus on God and who we are in Christ that all these big, and little sins fall off because God changes our "want to." [Great teaching by Andrew Wommack on that!] We become aware of Him in us and we identify with Him rather than the sin that is still there in the members of our bodies. Of course we do enter a really bad time if we get focused on the sin that is in our members and then upon our "self" as being the answer to try and deal with it. Our conscience may tell us not to beak the speed limit...the answer to that is not to make a commitment not to do that any more (because obviously we don't want too break it in our heart!)! If we do that then we will break it more than we ever did. The answer is to turn to the Lord and acknowledge the fact that, in Him, I have been set from from having to break the speed limit and that He doesn't want to break it and that He is my life. We let our conscience direct us to the Lord and what is true in Him, not to our self!
I hope you see the concept rather than some formula. Sin consciousness is due to a self focus rather than a Christ focus. The answer isn't to ignore the little sins, the answer is to let them be something that further drives us to Christ and into the freedom that is ours in Him.
I really don't have anything jumping out to me with respect to "pneuma" right now Michael. I would just look at every one of them and say "Yes!" to each, acknowledging that each use is "true", and then ask the Lord what is the "truth." :-) As far as capitalization is concerned it is an interesting fact that all the original Greek manuscripts were all written in capital letters with absolutely not punctuation or spaces between words (remember when they were written! Paper was gold!). The current capitalization is dependent upon the interpreter not on the Greek text used. [See Mounce's Beginning Greek book]
Anyway, have a great weekend Michael! Everyone else too! Thanks for [not LOL!] having this discussion with me. I appreciate you taking the time Michael! I love to add pages to the book in Mal 3:16!!! I consider this a discussion that comes from our hearts and not a debate! ;-)
Yours in Him,
Craig |
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| April 03, 2009 |
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Dang, you guys do go on...
I think this is a fascinating subject and I'd love to get my two-cents in. So here goes:
Craig: Your statement that sin consciousness happens because we are focused on self makes me wince a little. Here's what the bible says on that subject: 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Focusing on law gives us a sin consciousness. You can see it in your conversation (above). As soon as you got on the subject of sin, you immediately went to the law (civil law in this instance and not the Law of Moses). Going 70 in a 65 was equated with sin. Why? Because you have a knowledge of the law.
The grace message is always countered with the challenge, "So you're saying it's alright to sin?" Trust me on this, you guys, I've been seduced into this discussion many times before. MichaelATL43 said it best when he said:
"I agree with Andrew in the fact that if people are not asking you that question, then you are not preaching the same Gospel that Paul did."
To the person under law, the grace message sounds like hedonism. So be it. Do NOT let them drag you into a hair-splitting discussion determining what sin is or how often (if ever) you commit it. That is not a profitable discussion. Jim Richards (of Impact Ministries) taught me how to answer the sly question: "Do you sin?"
"I don't know if I sin or not. I'm the worst one to answer that question because if I knew whether I sinned or not, I would have to be under law. Since I'm under grace, I don't know if I sin."
In a very real sense, to sin or not to sin is not the question. The real question is whether you have accepted Jesus as your righteousness. If you sin and Jesus is your righteousness then you're covered. If you've never sinned but Jesus is not your righteousness then you've got a problem.
Some will take that message and live their lives in sin. So what? It's the truth. Just because that's the reality is no justification for telling them a lie - or God forbid - putting them under law. 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: If we really understood or accepted the fact that law gives power to sin, we would give law a very wide birth indeed. The church, I'm afraid, is not so convinced.
Rob |
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| April 03, 2009 |
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It is so very important to understand that any given activity
[or song for that matter],
no matter how good it may appear to be in itself,
will not affect a spiritual result
unless it is being done at the initiative of,
and in the power of,
the Spirit.
"'Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit', says the Lord!"
I will have to come back & view all the good comments.
stars to the discussion |
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| April 03, 2009 |
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If we walk in the Spirit, we don't sin. If we walk in the flesh, we sin. Questions? lol |
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| April 04, 2009 |
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Rob, you wrote: In a very real sense, to sin or not to sin is not the question. The real question is whether you have accepted Jesus as your righteousness. If you sin and Jesus is your righteousness then you're covered. If you've never sinned but Jesus is not your righteousness then you've got a problem.
Some will take that message and live their lives in sin. So what? It's the truth. Just because that's the reality is no justification for telling them a lie - or God forbid - putting them under law. I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding of justification by grace and the subsequent sanctification by grace. Here is the statement by Paul: Romans 3:5-8 ( ESV )
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. You, Andrew, Michael, and many others seem to be saying that when we properly preach justification by faith then it doesn’t matter if we sin or not…sin is no longer an issue. Looking at the preceding verse it is absolutely clear that Paul is saying that people are slandering us when they say that we are preaching that it’s just fine if we continue in sin. And you seem to be agreeing with the slanderers that we can continue in sin that grace might increase. That is a logical conclusion but it is not the truth. If we look ahead to Chapter 5 of Romans then we see that sin came through one man, Adam. We were born dead because we were born of him. Righteousness and justification came through one man, Christ. We died with him and are now also alive with him; because we are in him we are justified and righteous. This can lead to a slanderous conclusion: since it is all by grace it does not matter if we sin. That is completely false and a wrong conclusion. And, by the way, Paul tells me that, that condemnation is just. Right after explaining, in five chapters, that we are justified by grace alone Paul puts the nail in the slander coffin: Romans 6:1-2 ( ESV )
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Well, Paul…justification comes as a gift, we don’t and can’t earn it; so why aren’t the slanderers correct? Why, not continue in sin that grace may abound? Why not, since we are not justified by what we do or don’t do! Paul, answers: “Don’t be ridiculous! No way! How could that ever be! We have died to sin there is no way we will continue to live in it unless you are ignorant of the truth.” You seem to be saying that it doesn’t matter! He’s saying that, that is a totally wrong conclusion. It matters because we are not only justified as a gift, we are also set completely free from sin as a gift! There is no excuse to try and earn righteousness and there is no excuse to continue in sin or to try and overcome it, get victor over it, or do anything at all about it, because it has already been done for us in Christ! There is no excuse to continue in sin and, in fact, looking forward to Romans 8, we will die if we refuse the grace of God and continue to walk by the flesh! Rob: To the person under law, the grace message sounds like hedonism. So be it. Do NOT let them drag you into a hair-splitting discussion determining what sin is or how often (if ever) you commit it. That is not a profitable discussion. Jim Richards (of Impact Ministries) taught me how to answer the sly question: "Do you sin?" "I don't know if I sin or not. I'm the worst one to answer that question because if I knew whether I sinned or not, I would have to be under law. Since I'm under grace, I don't know if I sin." Rob, dear brother, this just makes me throw my hands in the air and shake my head. :-) The attempt to keep the Law (or as Romans 7 makes clear by leaving off the definite article “the”, the general principle of law) will bring us to a knowledge of sin. The word knowledge doesn’t mean “shall know about sin” it means you will experience sin’s power in an intimate way. It isn’t saying that if you know something is a sin then you’ll sin! Romans 6:15 ( ESV )
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! And, knowing that some are going to say “We are dead to the law so now it doesn’t matter!” he goes on to say: Romans 7:4-6 ( ESV )
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. Romans 8:12-14 ( ESV )
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. By grace through faith…righteousness and freedom from the flesh and sin; we cannot use justification by grace as an excuse or justification to continue to live in sin. That is a complete deception and results in death because we are no longer walking by the spirit but by the flesh. We are no longer abiding in the Covenant of grace realized through the sacrifice of Jesus. Oh, by the way, Paul said in Titus that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust so yes we do “know” what missing the mark is and that “intellectual, head knowledge” is not the “knowledge” that comes through trying to attain righteousness or sanctification by keeping rules. I really don’t completely understand why this seems to be so difficult for people to see, other than we must be making the words of men trump the words of scripture. We see the “words” but don’t seem to comprehend what they are saying. <Perplexed> Best regards,
Craig |
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| April 04, 2009 |
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Craig,
Obviously, none of the people mentioned on or participating in this discussion is advocating a sinful lifestyle. Neither are they saying that it's alright to live a life of sin.
Sin destroyed my life. I know what sin is. I'm sure Michael would say the same thing. I don't know your personal testimony but you don't talk like a person who goes to church because your mommy went to church. In other words, I discern that God has saved you from some sin and you are glad that He did.
Grace is another word for strength or ability. Although grace includes forgiveness and favor, somewhere in the definition of grace is the concept of supernatural ability. "My grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is made perfect in weakness." God's grace gives us the ability to do what we, in our own strength, cannot. (I'll refer you to the book - Grace - The Power to Change by Jim Richards (Whitaker House publisher)
8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. I lived the horror of Romans 7. I knew the right thing that I was supposed to do (and NOT do) but in my own ability (my flesh) I could not carry it out. There is nothing good that lives in me (that is, in my flesh). In my mind, I knew it was stupid to drink that much - nearly every day. I knew I shouldn't touch that 14-year old girl who was not my wife. I scolded and reprimanded myself. I tried as hard as I could but then when the opportunity presented itself, I had to obey my master.
I'm glad to be saved from that lifestyle. On a daily basis, I use the grace of God to live the life I am not capable of living in my own grace - a life free from sin. I'm happy that God has given me such power. I proclaim it to everyone. When I tell church people, however, this is their typical response, "You mean you don't sin?"
Then I get all the opposite testimony. In fact, an elder of the church on Sunday morning once said that he was going to sin several times more before he went to bed. Furthermore, he spoke for the entire congregation by saying that everyone in that auditorium would sin as well.
I wonder what sin was so strong that this spiritual head of the church could not resist committing it before his head hit the pillow. Why was he so emphatic about his need to sin and include his entire congregation in that same boat? What is wrong with people?
This elder along with most Christians I have talked to are under the wrong impression that God wants them to fight against sin with all their might. This is a recipe for disaster. I fought against sin with all my might and only proved that I was helpless against it. The elder is under his own grace and does not even acknowledge the grace of God that would be at his disposal if he would only acknowledge it. God's grace is infinitely stronger than sin but everyone believes that God wants them to keep themselves unspotted from the world. (Oooo don't get me started on the theology of James! If I could keep myself unspotted from the world, I certainly wouldn't need Jesus.)
This is what's behind the "Life is hard" theology. They mistakenly believe God wants them to have a difficult struggle against personal sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. God made total victory over sin available in Christ but we have, by and large, rejected that grace in favor of our own struggling - and failing - and more struggling - and more failing.
This is what's behind the "Grace means forgiveness" theology. Because we fail against sin all the time, we think Paul is describing God's forgiveness when he writes: 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? We mistakenly assume that the answer to sin is forgiveness. Nothing could be further from the truth. The answer to sin is grace - victory - freedom from sin. Being "in the flesh" and being "under law" are the same thing. Being "in the Spirit" and being "free from sin" are the same thing.
"Free from sin" does not equal "free to sin". The "grace = forgiveness" theology lends itself to such a conclusion. This is the state of the modern church.
Under the Law, the Jews had forgiveness but they did not have the ability to live free from sin. Most of the church is living as though the Law of Moses were still in effect. They assume that our Unblemished Lamb merely satisfied the requirement to go to Jerusalem every year to offer sacrifice for sin. They don't know that the rules have changed. Sin has indeed been forgiven (once for all) but now we have been given the ability to keep from sinning. This is the good news.
The modern church is not saved from her sin because she's still not free from her sin. Someone has convinced her that sinning is a fact of life. Therefore, God has to forgive her every day. The cycle repeats tomorrow. Since living above sin is impossible, this gave rise to the doctrine that "grace = forgiveness" because surely the antidote to sin is forgiveness (and not victory).
Craig, this is the saddest thing possible. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness but we would rather reject His grace and live under the law of sin and forgiveness until we die. We choose the sin unto death over the victory God has provided in Jesus. If you're going to be perplexed, be perplexed over that. God knows I am.
Rob
P.S. Since He was offered "once for all" that includes all sin (past, present, and future) for all people (past, present, and future). Sin is not a problem for God. On the other hand, sin kills us because of the damage it does to our hearts. Sin damages us psychologically. It's difficult to go to the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace to help in times of need when we're under the condemnation sin puts us under. If we sin after we've been set free from sin, we have to invent theologies to justify our error. If we believe we have to sin after we've been set free from sin, we have to invent theologies to codify our error. |
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| April 04, 2009 |
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OK, that's what I thought you believed, but I was confused by what you wrote earlier. :-( My bad. :-) Thanks for the clarification! And yes, I've been in all the place that you're talking about and done all the things that you've done...only I didn't get caught and they didn't call it sexual assault for an 18 year old to be messing with a 13 year old who looked 16; nor when I was 21 and seeing a 16 year old who was the slut of her high school. Her Mom asked me how old I was, I told her and she said "Good!" Guess she was hoping to get her daughter off her hands. I was in the Army and unsaved at the time. That is only the tip of the iceberg and God saved me!
So I know what you're saying and I've felt what you are feeling [about false doctrines]...I'm just no longer in that place of frustration and anger, and don't think you will be either...eventually. :-)
Yours in Him,
Craig |
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