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...if any of you are interested...take a look at this blog.
I subscribe to a newletter called Off The Map which gives some great insight into evangelism and how to accomplish it in our everyday lives. |
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| More posts from Voice In Dc |
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| To add a comment to "Interesting blog..." |
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Angie Farquhar July 16, 2007
Sounds like something Neal Donald Walsh would say:( |
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Suzanne Taylor July 16, 2007
So, why did reading that completely annoy me? I guess because even a general perusal of the New Testament would tell this guy that Jesus was either God Almighty or a complete nut. As far as Jesus not wanting to be worshipped? I remember him saying something like, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. I believe that is pretty much the definition of worship. Walking around telling everyone you are God is the work of a crazy person or God Himself. He's not just a nice guy, a good teacher.
But maybe the point is, how do we communicate that truth effectively to people like the writer of this blog? Through loving them, I guess, and letting God do the life-changing work; just like He did with me. |
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Voice In Dc July 16, 2007
Soozanne, that is the exact reason for the link from the Off the Map folks. They reach out to people who have been turned off by evangelicals and ask why. When the people discuss these things, they document them and let us know. |
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Helen July 16, 2007
voice_in_dc thanks for posting the link. Soozanne, speaking of brief perusals, didn't a brief perusal of my blog tell you I'm not a guy? |
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Kathy July 16, 2007
Thanks, Voice. This blog has volumes to say to us as Christians. Not because we need to learn from the writer's theology, but because we need to learn from her honesty. Attacking non-believers and skeptics with all our rehearsed answers is not likely to have any impact on their lives. Actually it is not likely to show that we have anything worth wanting. This writer has given us a gift: an honest look at her view of the world without attacking anyone. Why is this valuable? Because she is looking for something besides our words. She wants to know if Jesus makes any difference in our lives. If so, shouldn't she be able to see that, even without hearing our rehearsed words?
Folk singer and agnostic Susan Werner recently put out a new CD on which every song is the "gospel" according to her. When a friend told me about it I didn't want to hear it, feeling quite certain that it would be offensive, but I listened. And I cried. It was a most honest CD. Filled with questions. No attacks. Imperfect theology, but a longing to "get it." A beautiful glimpse into an agnostic's mind and heart.
Helen, welcome to MyChurch. I can speak only for myself when I say in all sincerity that your questions, spoken and unspoken, are welcome here. And may we all be refreshed by your honesty and your attitude of respect. |
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Dave Buckingham July 17, 2007
interesting. I'm noticing that building bridges are way harder than tearing them down. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Thanks for the welcome, Kathy. I appreciate you noticing I am doing my best to be respectful.
Soozanne, how are you going to love me when you are completely annoyed by me? I think that will be hard. |
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Voice In Dc July 17, 2007
Helen, you are welcome...I checked out your post this morning and it has a lot more comments...need to go back when I have some time. I have always been interested in how others see me...not from a self pride perspective, but as one that provides introspect. That is one thing I found appealing about your post. Good introspect. I only offer this information here because you are not one of my frequent readers. Thank you for the comment.
As for Kathy, she may only speak for herself, but she reflects my heart as well. I know I have so little understanding and a passionate desire for more...which is one of the reasons I applaud groups like Off the Map.
Kathy...as usual...great comments. Thanks. |
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Voice In Dc July 17, 2007
Helen, looks like you and I were posting at the same time...
Soozanne is one who speaks what is on her mind, but when you get into her heart you will find a very loving person. Don't let her coarseness fool you. Her comment about Jesus, though, is one that many people have come to conclude - either He is who He says He is, or He is a complete nut. The assertion comes into play when one considers if the Bible is a worthwhile book, as I am sure you have heard many times already. Either it is a book with something to offer or a complete compilation of stories made to influence weak people. It is hard to play in the middle ground unless you take the Bible simply as a story book. For example, I liked Episodes 2, 4, and 6 of Star Wars the best. I didn't care for the rest, so I don't pay much attention to them. Some people approach the Bible that way, too. Dare I say many Christians approach the Bible that way, too. However, if we do take a look at Jesus and who He said He was, it is hard to accept it unless we accept it all, IMHO. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Thanks for your responses, voice_in_dc. I have studied the Bible a lot (I was an evangelical Christian for over 16 years, in lots of Bible studies, did my own studying etc) Jesus didn't go around telling everyone he was God. In fact the Bible never has him utter the words "I am God". I understand how Christians put verses together and believe John was inspired to say the truth about Jesus being God and that constitutes 'proof' that Jesus is God. But can we be honest and accurate and not say Jesus went around telling everyone he was God? I really appreciate you admitting that Christians also pick and choose from the Bible sometimes. I don't think they always do it on purpose - but what I've noticed is that when you try to squeeze the Bible into something called 'a systematic theology' you end up emphasizing some parts more than others. If you go read any discussions between, say, Calvinist and Arminian Christians you will see that this is why they disagree. They have made different verses key; they are saying "My verse predominates over yours". It's sort of like Rock Paper Scissors where both people look at the result and cry out "I won!" Who is right? Who knows. It depends if you are a Calvinist or an Arminian. Maybe rock does win over paper after all because it can blow a whole through it. And so the debates will go on forever I think, as long as Calvinists and Arminians exist. And meanwhile since they ALL believe in hell why are they arguing with each other instead of trying to snatch people from the fire. I don't understand this. There is soooo much I don't understand. So I left, rather than participate in something that didn't make sense to me anymore. I don't know Soozanne but here I am if she wants to love me and/or show herself to be a loving person. I didn't come here to be mad at Soozanne or fight with her. I hate fights and I hate being mad at people. It seems like you have a friendly group here on your blog - I can see why, because you are friendly, to your credit - and the last thing I want to do is interfere with that. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Uh-oh, sorry, I broke the formatting on here - can you fix that, dc? I don't know why my lines didn't wrap around. |
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Voice In Dc July 17, 2007
Helen,
Love your rock-paper-scissors analogy. I will check out your link later...have to go earn my keep today. We'll fix the formatting. No problem. |
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Mike N Laura July 17, 2007
(yes, fix the formatting, please please please!)
Hi Helen,
Not sure why I am communicating with you on DC's blog, but hey, whatever works! Got to admit, I became frustrated as I read your blog. Do I/we intentionally keep Jesus locked up? No way! We want desperately to share with the world the source of our deepest joy, the reason we don't live for ourselves (anymore), working ourselves to death for neighbors and some folks we don't even know. Of course, the reason we behave like this is we have found Truth. Sorry if that sounds arrogant. And in a way it is arrogant. Truth is exclusive, by definition. Do I expect you to simply accept my bold claim to having found Truth? Maybe not. Doesn't change the fact (or you might say, my 'belief') that I've found a Truth that will carry me into eternity with the Creator. BUT... Doesn't mean we can't be friends either. And if you lived next door to me, I'd chat with you pleasantly whenever I see you. I'd offer to rake your leaves or cut your grass or get your mail or whatever else you needed but couldn't do yourself. We'd eventually get around to invite you to dinner. We'd also invite you to swim in our pool, hang out, just be friends. That's how we would share Jesus love with you, even though you don't understand the theology behind it. We're kind of limited over the internet like this, but if there's anything we can do for you, let us know.
Ok, now I ramble. Anyway.... welcome to MyChurch (I sense you're new, sorry if I'm wrong). Talk to you later, maybe even on your own blog! (haha) ~mike
ps... I never start a relationship with the in-your-face claim that I've got the Truth you need. That only started my comments this time b/c that's the topic you started with your blog. Well written too, I might add. |
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Rjmcglothlin July 17, 2007
Interesting blog, but it sadens my heart to read such a waterd down description of my Lord. Your right the Lord never demanded worship, but he does deserve it, and the love he gives fosters it. True he walked in humility and never boasted of His true idenity, but His life on earth tesified of who He really was. When he asked Peter who He was, he had no trouble identifing Him as the Son of God. Jesus responded by saying, upon the solid rock of the truth of that revelation I will build my church.
I'm sorry for the way Chistains may have treated you in the past. I have little tolerance for those who judge others harshly in the name of religion. I hope one day you can know and experience the love of Jesus as deeply as I have.
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Helen July 17, 2007
Mike and Laura and rjmglothlin, you are writing to me as if I never was a Christian, but didn't I say on this page that I was one for over 16 years? Go look on my own blog (see my profile) Love is the most excellent Way - click All Posts and read what I wrote in the 1990s when I was Christian. You'll see I was one, for sure. The blog still has its name that was based on 2 Bible verses combined. |
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Kathy July 17, 2007
Helen, the questions you ask are good ones, and important ones, especially the question of who Jesus claimed to be. Although I doubt that you hold the Bible in high regard historically, the fact is the four gospels give us our most comprehensive picture of Jesus and His teachings. If you are truly seeking truth, I challenge you to read the Gospel of John in its entirety. (It reads quickly.) In this Gospel, in several instances, it is clear that Jesus is identifying Himself as God incarnate and as the awaited Messiah (the Christ). A couple of examples:
In chapter 4, the story of Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well:
4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things." 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."
In chapter 5, the Gospel writer explains why the Jewish people were trying to kill Jesus, not that He broke the Sabbath, but that He "called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5: 18)
And one more example from chaper 8:
8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 8:59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple. This one is huge! Jesus responds to His Jewish taunters who asked Him, "Oh, you are not even 50 years old, but you have seen Abraham?!" His response, using the same "I am" that God used in Ex. 3:14, although not so clear in English, was very clear to His Jewish taunters. He was claiming to be the great "I am", God Himself! That they understood His words this way is clear, as they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.
The Gospel of John is filled with such evidence, Helen. I challenge you to read it privately and see where it takes you. Christians are not a perfect people, but Jesus is who He claimed to be, despite cursing that tree! (God the Father has His angry moments as well!) |
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Nee_Nee July 17, 2007
7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
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Jennifer Sharrer July 17, 2007
Helen, welcome! I found your blog to be rather interesting. I can understand not wanting the theological answers from christians. I have been in a church where people have the same questions as you right now. I would love to spend the time discussing them with you.
I found you questions about worhipping Jesus very interesting. I would respond with three things to keep in mind. 1.) Jesus humbled himself to come to earth, 2.) He was always putting the attention to God and not keeping it for himself, and 3.) We worship him for what he did (dying on the cross.)
I would encourage you to keep looking at Jesus life. As I said, I am always here for a discussion. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Nee Nee, so, can you prove Jesus is God from Matthew Mark and Luke? If not, don't you think that's a bit odd? I do. I know about Jesus saying "I am" in John and that's supposed to mean he is saying God's name. But why didn't he just say "I am God" - why be so indirect? And why did the authors of Matthew Mark and Luke NEVER hear Jesus say "I am God" or even "I am" in a meaningful "Guess what - that's God's name - get it?" sort of a way. Also, Jesus saying he was Messiah wasn't an acknowledgement he was God, to his hearers (the Samaritan woman, or whoever). They didn't have a belief that Messiah was God. Jennifer, thanks for the welcome. If you find answers which work for the people in your church then I'm interested to hear them - although I've probably heard them before. Sorry if that sounds arrogant - I was a Christian for 16 years and studied reasons to believe and answer to questions when I was one, and I haven't come across any new ones since those stopped working for me even though I have been on the lookout for them. |
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Jennifer Sharrer July 17, 2007
Helen, you don't sound arrogant. May I ask though, why the answers you had stopped working for you? |
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Kathy July 17, 2007
Dear Helen, I am not Nee Nee, but I think you meant to address me instead with your questions, which are challenging to follow, by the way, with this formatting! First, I want to say that I have no interest in debating you about Jesus' deity. I was/am uncertain whether you are trying to prove your point or whether you are truly seeking truth for yourself, and if in fact it is the latter, I am happy to give you some areas to seek. No, I don't find it "odd" that every writing about Jesus does not point as definitively to His deity. Every writing and writer has its own bent, and Matthew, Mark, and Luke are largely story tellers. They are relating eye-witness accounts of walking with Jesus on earth. They are recorders of historic events. John, on the other hand, is a writing that sets out to answer the question of who Jesus is. Thus, I recommended that as the best starting point for you, should you truly be seeking answers.
As for the "I am" statement, that was not indirect at all. If you have ever studied a second language in any depth you will know that much gets lost in translation, and this is one of those instances! The Jewish people who heard what Jesus said had no doubt what He was saying. Thus they began picking up stones to stone Him to death. Would they do this if He had just ambiguously said "I am" as a riddle? His meaning was not hidden, and they got it!
You are correct that the Jewish people did not expect the Messiah to be God. They were expecting an earthly deliverer, like a king.
Again, I challenge you, Helen, not to debate me or anyone else here, but to seek deeper, and to study more than you could have possibly done in 16 years, some of which may have even been childhood years? I have been a Christian for 45 years, and everyday I discover new depths, new connections, richer understandings, and more and more questions. To write off Christianity as an activity for the ignorant is to write it off too quickly. (No, I know you didn't say that, but many other agnostics have.) I have no interest in winning any debates with you, but if your heart is open, I have an interest in walking along beside you as you question. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Jennifer, ummm...good question. When I asked myself "How do I know these things are true?" I found that I didn't know, in fact I was very unsure and various things were making me suspect they weren't true. Like, when I looked at the behavior/character of Christians (I mean, Bible-believing Christians, indwelt by the Holy Spirit) and other people I couldn't see any significant difference. I know the Christian explanations - Christians still have a sin nature etc - but it occurred to me that a simpler explanation was, what I have been taught about the Holy Spirit was somehow wrong. Another biggie - I couldn't be sure it was Jesus talking to me, not me talking to myself. Anyway I've written at length about my changing faith on my blog - feel free to read whatever you like. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Hi Kathy, sorry, I thought Nee Nee posted the quotes from John. Yes, the format probably threw me off but now it's fixed - yay! :) Actually I have studied the Bible in great depth already - my years as a Christian were all adult ones - I accepted Christ at the age of 20 - a carefully considered decision - and right away started studying the Bible seriously, which I continued for the next 16 years or so. In those 16 years I would show the things I found to my pastors/leaders because it didn't seem like other lay people were as interested as me in them. The pastor/leaders often hadn't noticed the things I showed them - when I showed them they were interested too; it wasn't that I was trying to show them a 'different' interpretation that conflicted with what they believed. I am not actively questioning because I have done that for long enough and now I need to move on, having not found any new or different answers than the ones I had which had stopped working for me. I have not said Christianity is an activity for the ignorant. If you want to know more about my questions I have asked feel free to explore what's at the link in my comment above this one. |
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Helen July 17, 2007
voice_in_dc, can you give me any advice on not breaking the width - sorry, I seem to have done it again :( |
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Angie Farquhar July 17, 2007
Helen, I read several of your blogs on the above mentioned links. You have some really great questions. I would venture to say that most of us have battled with some of those same thoughts/questions. I guess the one that I felt like I have battled with is the "Is that me or God in my mind?"
I don't have a profound, well-versed answer for that question. I also accepted Christ as an adult. I asked a friend once "How do I know if it's my idea or the Holy Spirit?" THis answer was this:
If my wife calls my name from the other room and tells me something, I know it's her, because I know her voice. I know who she is and how she speaks...the kinds of things she says. That's how it is when the Holy Spirit speaks to my heart. I have read His Word and I know His voice. He is not going to say anything contrary to what it says in the Bible...it's God-breathed. Unlike my wife who may "fib" from time to time (haha), He doesn't lie or change His "position" on issues.
Round-about, that was his answer to my question. It I didn't really grasp that until I dove into the Bible. (I know you have also studied the Word)
You mentioned some health issues on some of your blogs. I am sure that this has made this particular question difficult for you (it is for most of us). I have not gotten to read all of your blogs to date, but will comment or email you on your "mychurch" space when I do.
Have a blessed day, and welcome to mychurch!
Angie (no Pangie, please)haha |
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Helen July 17, 2007
Hi Angie, yes, health issues have been a factor. I can't trust what I "know" because when I am ill I "know" crazy things. |
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Voice In Dc July 18, 2007
Helen, my guess is that you are using a Mac and the editor has, at times, caused problems for us here...note we are still operating in beta. If you are using a Mac, best to use word text editor or you can put in your own carriage returns - but this option stinks because you actually have to put in two carriage returns each time.
I know the development team is aware of the problem. Sorry for the inconvenience. |
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John Cummins July 18, 2007
Helen, Maybe I'm not following all of this but are you saying you were a Christian but are not now? Does that mean that once you were born again but now are unborn again? If so, please explain. For that matter, anyone on this blog explain HOW this is possible? I'm waiting... |
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Helen July 18, 2007
voice_in_dc, I got an e-mail from someone I assume is on the development team. I am using a PC and usually use Opera. But I will post this in IE7 instead to see if that works better. [Ah, I think it will because the box is wrapping my text now instead of letting me go wayyyyyy across the page - yay!]
recon77, my beliefs have changed - I used to be a Bible-believing Christian and now I can't affirm those beliefs - now I 'dont know' and I have a lot of doubts. I know this to be true of me - I cannot explain it in theological terms. You might believe it's theologically impossible - but that doesn't change what I know to be true of me. If so, you will probably conclude I either never was truly born again (I think my pastors and close Christian friends would disagree with you - they know I was - and if you read what I wrote in the 1990s on my site I think you may think I was too) - or you will decide I am sinfully backslidden, that for some reason I have deliberately abandoned what I once knew/believed.
Whatever you think, presenting me with your theology doesn't change what I know to be true of me any more than you showing me a weather report saying it's sunny where I live means anything if I am standing outside getting wet in the rain.
I didn't intentionally change my beliefs; they just changed, as life experiences forced themselves in on me....I was at a crossroads - do I shut my eyes and ears and brain and cling to what I believe no matter what, or do I let them be open and deal with the reality that what I see hear and think is causing me to question aspects of my theology? I had always said I was a truth-seeker; if I closed my eyes ears and brain I would have proved that to be a lie. So for honesty's sake I couldn't do that; I kept them open, I asked hard questions and....here I am.
You have a choice - you can ignore what I am saying and force a theological construct on me even if it fits worse than Cinderella's glass slipper fitted the elder sisters.
Or you can say "Hmmmm...I don't see how that's possible" - but nevertheless choose not to invalidate my experience.
It's up to you. There are lots of people like me out there but most likely you will not hear about that in church because we don't go to church. OSAS ("once saved, always saved") churches would rather not know about us - our existence raises difficult questions. Such churches usually deal with us by forcing us into the 'you were never saved'/'you are still saved but in denial' construct. If you do that I won't even be surprised.
Anyway have a nice day :) |
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Voice In Dc July 18, 2007
Helen, I love your ability to express yourself in words. Glad someone from the staff contacted you and it looks like Opera was the issue. Got that one, Carebear?
All, please note what Helen has said here in her last comment. This is why I posted the link. The lady has some really good points that we should understand. We all talk in our everyday jargon, putting limitations on our faith which, in the end, put limits on our God (see her post). She has not hidden herself away in some cave and denied what her experience has shown her. Rather, she has allowed herself, through her blog, to be open to discussions. I like that. There is an integrity there that is seldom seen and even rarer walked out. Given that openness, ask her questions. I don't care if you do it here or on her blog. She has been gracious enough to stick with us here, and I truly appreciate that.
One other thing I have mentioned on other threads...my home machine is down right now, so I have very limited time to check my blog through the day. I apologize for that because I think this thread is very valuable. Hopefully this weekend I will be able to resolve my problems with my network at home. |
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Kathy July 18, 2007
Helen, despite my Baptist background, I do agree with you that one can lose his/her salvation. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" serves its purpose in the church. It assures Christians that sin, even unconfessed, does not steal our salvation, and that's a true assurance. However, there is this thing called apostasy, the unpardonable sin, which is the exception. Exactly what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit has been debated long by minds 1000 times greater than mine, but imho, here is what it means:
6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6:6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. I believe the unpardonable sin is making the conscious decision, once already enlightened by the Holy Spirit, to turn away from Him. Thus, we cannot really lose our salvation (accidentally), but we can consciously decide to turn away from it, which is blasphemous to God, and unpardonable.
Is it also possible that one could study the Bible and live the "Christian" life without ever really having or understanding intimacy with God? Yes, in which case, turning away is not apostasy, but rather there was never a relationship begun from which to turn away. I suspect our churches house many who fit this category, unaware that they are involved in a Christian culture where they have learned head knowledge, but do not personally know Jesus as Lord and Savior.
We can read and study for years and still miss the whole spiritual realm that surrounds us. This is not unpardonable. The door is open to all who knock, and those who seek with open hearts will find. The Christian life is a lifelong journey. We never arrive in this lifetime. We never understand fully, but our questions change as we grow in closer fellowship with God. To believe without having all the answers is the definition of faith. |
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Helen July 18, 2007
Thanks voice_in_dc. I appreciate the kindness and respect you've shown me here. In turn I'm using IE7 in order not to break your blog format :)
Kathy, we didn't turn away. What happened was, we found ourselves unable to believe what we used to believe.
What we find is, we get chastised for turning away rather than wooed in grace like those who never-believed. (Or, that is evangelism at its best) There is no grace for us because we 'should know better'. We are condemned by 'from those who knew much, much is expected'. Even though we didn't choose to stop believing.
Kathy I cannot believe. And if he exists, God knows - Jesus knows - I am telling the truth. I cannot push the elephant in the room - which is all my questions - under the rug and then pretend it isn't there. It makes a huge bump I can't ignore. And if I could I would be a liar and a hypocrite - two things God - according to the Bible - hates. So please don't ask me to be a liar and a hypocrite. |
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Kathy July 18, 2007
Hi Helen. Ghandi is credited with saying "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." It is true that many Christians misunderstand the abundance and the essence of God's grace. Thankfully, however, that doesn't stop God from offering it! I am grateful that He is not confined to the boxes into which we try to put Him. He is a God of amazing mercy and grace, desiring that every human being should come to Him.
9:17 they refused to obey, and were not mindful of the wonders which thou didst perform among them; but they stiffened their neck and appointed a leader to return to their bondage in Egypt. But thou art a God ready to forgive, gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and didst not forsake them. 9:18 Even when they had made for themselves a molten calf and said, 'This is your God who brought you up out of Egypt,' and had committed great blasphemies, 9:19a thou in thy great mercies didst not forsake them . . . 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 145:9 The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made. Helen, I would like to sit down with you over coffee (actually a smoothie is more my speed) and hear your story. I have not yet had time to read any of your other blogs, as this has been quite the busy week between work and Vacation Bible School, but I am praying for your peace and am glad to have "met" you! As for wanting you to be a hypocrite, remember it was your honesty and openess I first commended you on! Love to you, Helen! |
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Helen July 19, 2007
Hi Kathy, It takes a long time to tell my story - you're welcome to read my various attempts here on my blog:
Changing faith
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Helen July 19, 2007
oops, sorry, I had more to say...
After you're up to speed on my story, I'd be up for coffee or a smoothie as long as you could respect my experience and not judge me or label me or put me in a box. I say that not because I know you would but because others have and I don't enjoy it. I love meeting interesting people; I hate being pushed around.
Hey I took your Bible quiz and got 100% - I added it to my profile. I'm not actively reading the Bible except to check I am being accurate if I discuss a passage. But I guess I still remembered enough (plus some of the questions were easy - only one plausible answer :)) |
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Sword_In_Dc July 19, 2007
In retail, we talk a lot about the 'gift of the Customer's complaint' - the Customer doesn't have to take the time to tell you what you did wrong, and without that information ya can't fix what you don't know is broke. For anyone serious about truly serving their Customers, no business can afford to ignore this precious gift.
Bringing it back to your blog, Helen, - thank you for the gift of telling us what we're doing wrong. I pray we have enough sense and maturity to receive it, consider it, and do something about it.
When I read your blog about 'keeping Jesus in a box' away from people who might not talk about Him 'correctly', all I could say was, "Ouch!". The Jesus I know is there for everyone. In fact, when the Pharisees got on His case about hanging out with 'the wrong crowd', He told them they were the ones He had come to get - those who were healthy didn't need the doctor - only those who were sick. In fact, the only 'requirement' to receiving the Savior seems to be the willingness to admit that you just might need one. God forbid we get so 'professional' in our Christianity that we forget how needy we are and how little we know!
That brings me to a thought that I'll throw out for discussion: as far as why Christians can come off so distant, self-righteous, and 'preachy' about ideas that aren't in keeping with what we believe. Speaking for myself, I know that before I experienced Jesus, my moral beliefs were somewhat 'squishy'. Not that you had to hide the good silverware if I came over to visit, but more like I had few-or-no beliefs in any absolutes of right/wrong. Morals were fluid, decisions were situational, and theology was unimportant, so that no opinion on these isues mattered enough to care if I was right or wrong (let alone have time to care if someone else was right or wrong). Enter Jesus Christ. For the first time in my life I had something/Someone who mattered to me more than anyone or anything else - Someone worth living and dying for; Someone worth my all. For the first time, there were things that I could know as absolutely true - there was revelation knowledge that I could know and experience personally, and there was Scripture that I could hold as a beacon, consistent, unchangeing, and right. There were things that were non-negotiable dealing with life and death and eternity and relationship with Almighty God, and these things really mattered.
I think the mistake many of us as Christians make, when we find that there are absolutes and we can know them, is to assume that all things are absolutes, and we know them all. Looking back I can see where was one of them. I made many more assumptions than I should have about how much I 'knew' and which things were important. Chalk that up to basic immaturity. As I 've gotten older, I've gained much more willingness to admit how much I don't know - we're not required to know everything, or to have an answer for every single objection, or to be 'right' and 'score points' for Jesus (I don't remember reading that anywhere in Acts). Personally, I have a lot more respect for someone willing to admit, "I honestly don't know," and I've found a lot of liberty in being able to say it, myself.
So forgive me for being one of those who 'preached' and 'scored points' over every disagreement. The bottom line is that I hope there is enough willingness to forgive and accept on both sides that we can even have a conversation about experiences and ideas where we disagree. I would love to chat with you more about ...... stuff. I get excited about what God's doing in the world, and about who He is. I really enjoy hashing out ideas with others - 'iron sharpening iron'; one throws out an idea, another adds a small piece of the puzzle, we all grow and explore. I truly hope we can do things like that here, on the blogs, without coming across like I think I know it all or like I'm preaching.
I'll give you an example - I read your blog regarding Jesus not demanding people worship Him, and I got excited about the topic because I had noticed that I couldn't find anywhere in Scripture where God Almighty actually demands worship. I found lots of places, especially in Psalms, where believers encourage each other to worship God, and places throughout the Bible where people worship God as a spontaneous response to his goodness, but the closest I found to a command was in Psalms 50, and it was addressed to those same Pharisaical types we were talking about before - the ones who enjoy making rules for other people to live by. (I'm actually reading it right now in the English Standard Version, which is my new 'favorite Bible translation', which I highly recommend, if anyone's interested.)
So, yeah, I get excited about things-Biblical (more excited about 'things-Jesus-iful'), and I would love to talk more about them, if you'd like (as long as you can put up with long posts and lots of typing). There's something about throwing out ideas for others to comment on and add to that I really believe helps us all. |
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Suzanne Taylor July 19, 2007
I thought I'd jump back in and publicly apologize to Helen for offending her. I have already sent you a private note, Helen, although I am not above a long public apology if that is necessary. I've stuck my foot in my mouth more than once, so I'm used to the process!
I agree with you that the lives of professing Christians look no different from most people we say are "lost." I don't think that is a shortcoming of Jesus, I think that is a shortcoming of people who have lied to themselves about their salvation. We are known by our fruit. If we are producing bitter fruit, He is not in us. I do believe Christians are going to be very surprised at who's missing from our 'club' when we all meet up in heaven.
Helen, it sounds like you have already made your conclusions. I pray somehow God will step into your life and show you how much He loves you. I pray you encounter some people who call themselves Christians who really are. And I pray you will find some peace. Blessings. |
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Helen July 19, 2007
Hi Sword - wow, you really get it! That's just what I'm hoping for - people who actually go back to the Bible and study it and notice things like "Hmmm...God never demands worship - isn't that fascinating???" The one I really want to discuss is the Sheep and Goats - why did Jesus make that judgment entirely works-based??? No hint of having to have faith. The answers I've heard seem too complicated - that it's a special judgment only for certain people - how would his hearers have known that? Or that faith was implied - why would Jesus risk such indirectness on such an important topic as 'how to get to heaven'???
Hi Soozanne, I just got your apology and responded. (I am happy with the length of it - you don't need to send more :))
I came here to say that you apologized in private because I wanted people to know that, if you didn't mention it here.
I haven't exactly made my conclusions. It's more that...well, I need to live my life and have a 'current working hypothesis'. When I go buy milk I can't go check every shop to see who has the cheapest milk every time - I simply don't have time. It's the same with my beliefs...I need to live my life...but if someone manages to get my attention with a big/creative/different "MILK ON SALE HERE" sign, hey, it would be silly of me to walk right past because for some reason I can't ever change my mind/beliefs/habits...
For the record, I have more peace than when I was a Christian. Life is always challenging but I have more ways of dealing with it than I used to..
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Sword_In_Dc July 19, 2007
Helen-
Again, I don't want to come off like I 'know' the answer to your Q about the sheep and the goats, but just to throw out one more small piece of the puzzle for discussion....
Many years ago I heard a comedian talking about different denominations/movements within Christianity. He was discussing the things (good, bad, downright silly) that made each unique when he dropped the comment, "Then there are those Christians who are so fundamental that all they do is sit around and BE right." Have to admit I laughed. A lot. Probably repented, too.
Perhaps one reason works was so stressed in Jesus' parable was that practical works had been completely ignored (or at least put on the back burner) by the religious leaders of the time. Certainly, the Pharisees were more impressed with doctrine and right thought about God than in people and how to reflect God's unconditional love for them. In keeping with the current discussions about 'winning debating points' rather than loving people and accurately representing Jesus, it gives a good pause for thought. It also adds new meaning for me to Jesus' warning that, unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.
Anyone else have some thoughts on it? |
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Kathy July 19, 2007
Hi Helen! I finally read a little of your story and saw nothing that shocked me. I have had many close friendships with people who think as you do, and I respect and love them. God has not called me to judge and condemn, but to love and to walk alongside. Congrats on the Bible Quiz! I posted it in January, and it has been taken about 175,000 times! An interesting side note to that is that a large number of those takers came in from atheist and agnostic websites, who often discussed their feeling that they know more about the Bible than most Christians, a sad commentary that I find to be too often true. Thus my blog here encouraging my Christian brothers and sisters to read and study.
I have noticed in your writing a recurring question: If this is what Jesus was saying, why did He say it so indirectly? For the sake of dialogue, here are some of my thoughts on that: First, Jesus was not writing "the Bible." (Nor were any of the actual Biblical authors, for that matter.) What we have record of are snippets from His day to day conversations and teachings. His favored teaching style was by parable, similar to what we modern day speakers and writers call "word pictures." Often even His twelve disciples didn't understand what He was saying. Why would He choose to speak this way? I offer two answers I believe to be true: 1) so people would understand, 2) so people would not understand.
Jesus' teachings, although familiar to us, were new and shocking to His first hearers. He spoke in stories from their daily life so they could grasp the radical new concepts. However, His teachings were so different from the accepted religious teachings of the day that He also had to protect Himself, until "His time was come." He often told those he healed "Go and tell no one what you have seen." Those who were ready to understand did, but for those who were not ready, He left Himself an out. He had a mission here on earth, and much teaching to do before being killed.
I understand this because to a much smaller degree, I do the same thing. I often blog in word pictures for clearer understanding of concepts, and when I blog about something extra controversial that I know many readers are not ready to hear, I am purposely and carefully a little vague, allowing those who are ready, to "get it," while leaving others a possible alternative interpretation. Why? Because I believe God has called me to write for a season, to challenge some popular Christian ideologies, and my season is not yet ended. (Example blog: The words or The Word? )
Coffee? Unfortunately a very long drive! Should you find yourself in NC though, the coffee is on me, and until then, I'd love to continue to "have coffee" here! Love to you, Helen! Grace and Peace! |
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Helen July 19, 2007
Thanks Sword - you raise some excellent points.
Kathy, I like word pictures too (maybe you've noticed :)).
I understand about Jesus' teachings being shocking then, but I wonder if they shouldn't be more shocking today than they are. What popular Christian ideologies do you challenge?
Yes, it's a long drive. But maybe we'll be in the same place one day. I'm just outside Chicago. |
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Kathy July 19, 2007
lol Helen! You're trying to get me in trouble! :) Here are a few of my more controversial blogs, and I have a heart full of others!
Women, Shut Up!
Where Is God When I'm Hurting?
Let's Not Put Prayer back into our Schools
It's not that enjoy controversy! I just cannot sit back and silently watch Christendom drifting farther from God's plan. I see many churches worshipping the Bible more than the God it points us to (although fewer people are actually studying it), and I see many churches following church tradition more closely than they are following Christ Himself. Why? Because we all like something we can put our hands on. We can touch the Bible. We can argue over words. We can record tradition. Following Christ is much harder. Faith: Believing (and building our whole lives around) what we cannot physically see. |
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Voice In Dc July 19, 2007
Helen, I have just spent a couple of hours reading through your blog. I read your ten questions as well as the two poems you point to. By the way, both poems are great. I have to admit, I really like God of My Dreams. I ask the same questions and think the same thoughts.
I need to ask you a couple of questions. Forgive me if they are somewhere on your blog...I didn't see them answered anywhere.
1. Do you have a belief in God?
2. Wherein does your faith lie?
You mention that your husband is an athiest and I see where you call yourself "almost an athiest". Does God exist for you in some form or fashion?
It doesn't seem like, based on my macro understanding of your writings, that you have faith in yourself alone. You seem to have an inner strength that comes from somewhere. What drives that faith? What gives you hope for tomorrow?
I ask these only to get a better understanding of where you are right now. If you have answered these on your blog somewhere...please point me there.
Oh, and you call Kathy not controversial?? Hehe...Yeah, and rain isn't wet. When I first met her she made my head hurt because she challenged me in so many directions. It wasn't that I didn't agree with her or disagree with her. She made me get out of my comfort zone. I think I yelled at her a time or two, too.
Sword, great stories from your life that are "ah ha" times. They encourage me that I can and will continue to change.
Thanks to all for continuing here while my machine is down. Very good dialog. I really appreciate it. |
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Marybeth Lynn July 19, 2007
I've been reading so many comments here and where Helen has blogged. I honestly get embarrased by my family sometimes, and am saying family as much to remind myself...
Helen, thanks for being real. Sorry for the blah, blah, blah you've had to deal with in the flesh and in writing, but truthfully think I'm guilty of some of the foolishness you point out. You ask some great questions and do a good job of giving us a mirror for some of the blind spots. Sure wish I could hear God's take on all of this in a really big voice we could all hear together. |
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Helen July 21, 2007
Hi Brian, thanks for your comment.
Voice_in_dc I don't know whether God exists. I don't assert that God either does or doesn't. I don't think in terms of faith. I'd like to help make the world a better place; I hope I can. Or maybe that's the faith you're asking me to affirm - that I hope I can make the world a better place. I don't know if I can but I'd like to try. My life is lived in communities - I'm not a 'lone ranger' even though I quit church.
Why wouldn't I have hope for tomorrow? That question confuses me a bit. We all have a will to live don't we?
I missed where I said Kathy wasn't controversial - maybe it was a typo :-)
MaryBeth thanks for the welcome and the compliments. Nice to meet you :-)
Hey everyone I am going on vacation July 25-Aug 4 so if I drop off the face of the earth for a while soon that's why.
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Voice In Dc July 21, 2007
Helen, Thanks for the response. OK. So to respond back with what I think you are saying...you don't have a belief in God. If he exists that is ok, but if he doesn't that is ok, too. His existence is nonconsequential to your life.
You are uncertain how to answer my second question about faith. I stated it in a very vague manner. Let me go a little further, but I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me here.
You ask "We all have the will to live don't we?" I think the answer is really "no". Elminating those who are suicidal, and looking at the population in general, I believe that many would agree that they have an inate desire to "get through the day". Many are not motivated because they do not see any higher calling in life (I am not referring to God here, but simply something greater than self), so they engage in dangerous behaviors which are destructive to them and the ones they love.
I have a hope that my life has a higher purpose than just putting food on the table and a roof ovre our heads. Some days it "feels" like that is the epitomy of my life, but I know, through my walk with God, that there is some greater purpose that I may or may not see. That realization hmbles me in the highs of life and motivates me in the lows.
So, to restate my question...wherein does your faith lie? Based on my macro understanding of your life, you seem to have a higher calling mentality. Where does that come from?
I hope I haven't stated too many words here only to confuse the subject more. |
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Helen July 21, 2007
Hi voice_in_dc, I am content not to know where the 'higher calling' mentality comes from.
It makes me happy to do things which make a difference for other people and it makes them happy too so it's a win-win proposition as far as I'm concerned.
Many are not motivated because they do not see any higher calling in life (I am not referring to God here, but simply something greater than self), so they engage in dangerous behaviors which are destructive to them and the ones they love.
I think people engage in dangerous behaviors because they are unhappy and are trying to find a way to be happier. Based on my experience, 1) not all people who aren't Christians are unhappy 2) believing in Jesus is not the only way to resolve unhappiness. |
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Voice In Dc July 21, 2007
Thanks Helen. I think I understand where you are coming from now.
Yes, I agree with both of your numbered items, too. IHMO, I would go so far as to say that many Christians are unhappy...not without joy, but unhappy.
So, my next question comes to the one of standards. Society drives a standard of living and a standard of morals. What is your daily approach to living up to that standard? What I mean by that is...you say you like to do things that make a difference for other people. Pardon the comparison, but so did Dr Kevorkian. Didn't make him right. I use an extreme there only to show my point in the question and not to say you are like that at all for you aren't. Can you share some thoughts there...of if you have already, point me to them.
Thanks Helen. Good thought provoking ideas here... |
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Helen July 21, 2007
Hi voice_in_d.c.
I guess I have two responses:
1) Society doesn't drive my morals - I'm not sure what you mean by that. Society is tolerant of a range of morals.
2) My experience was that Christians who all say they believe the Bible is true don't agree on what is right. So, that problem isn't resolved by being a Bible-believing Christian. |
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Voice In Dc July 21, 2007
I agree with your #2 item. Totally.
Regarding #1, though, societly does indeed drive a moral standard. We can choose to comply or deviate from it, but it is there. Example would be slavery. In the 1700s and most of the 1800s society in the US accepted slavery. That standard started to change in Europe - mostly England in the late 1700s and eventually, now, slavery is not accepted as a moral standard in the US. Other societies still consider it acceptable. Even if I personally thought slavery was ok, the society I have chosen to live within, the US, has determined that practice morally unacceptable.
So, in a way, society does indeed drive one's morals...or society, at the very least, sets the standard from which we choose to deviate. When you say you like to do things that make a difference to other people, how do you decide? Is it because of what they would like you to do for them? If I have an eating disorder and can't eat chocolate, but love chocolate and would really like chocolate, would you get it for me because it would make me happy? If not, why not? |
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Helen July 21, 2007
I won't say society has no influence - but society can't make you think slavery is wrong if you think it's right. What society can do is have a legal system that punishes you for doing certain things it deems immoral. It can't make you agree they are immoral.
I disagree with your definition of happiness, which gives me my answer to your question about chocolate. Addictions don't make people happy. They enslave people and make them desperately feed the addiction. Doing so brings short-term 'relief' i.e. alleviation of symptoms, not happiness. So, no, I would not enable your addiction, because that would not make you happy - it would only make you more enslaved and more unhappy.
Anyway I'm not claiming to have the right answers to everything. If I did have those I would be God. I would say Christians who claim such certainty are committing blasphemy by standing in the place of God.
I just do my best, that's all. I try to make wise decisions based on what I know. What more can anyone do? So, no, I can't prove I'm right. But I've seen over and over again that certain things work better than others. Listening and respecting people makes them happier than making them listen to me all the time, trying to control them, put them down, etc. I've seen that proved true in practice so I feel confident in
Have you read Jim's (Jim of Off the Map) book about evangelism? It's all about evangelism as the act of giving our attention away to others - it's a gift we are short of in our society. A cup of cold water isn't something most people who live around us need, but people in our society do tend to be starved of attention.
Paying attention to these small things helps other people be happier. Not by feeding addictions but by offering loving relationship. |
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Voice In Dc July 21, 2007
Well stated Helen.
In my case, when I am making decisions on moral values, I tend to fall back on the Bible. When I don't have an inner conviction one way or the other, then it is easy. When I do and it differes from the Bible, then it is very difficult....and, by the way, I have stated here and other places many times that taking God's name in vain is saying He says something when He doesn't, so I totally agree with you on that one, too. Nobody can claim to have all the answers. That puts God in a tidy little box that is totally knowable and predictable.
No, I haven't read Jim's book. Sounds like it would be a good read. I will check into it.
Thanks for the dialog here Helen. I appreciate it. At this point I have no other questions for you. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. |
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Angie Farquhar July 21, 2007
Helen,
I have been trying to keep up with this conversation every few days or so...so forgive me if you answered this already and I missed it. When DC asked about a hope for tomorrow, I thought (and I could be wrong) that he meant after you "kick the bucket".
Bottom line, if you died today, where would you spend eternity?
Sorry for being so blunt, but I am just being real and I appreciate that you have done the same on this blog.
One thing I have learned from reading all of this is to stop using "Christian saying", like you would find on a $10 T-Shirt. I kinda got into a bad habit of that. I want to know what He really said and did, not what others have said. I do believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God, so if It says Jonah was in the whale...then he was in the whale!
I know I am rambling a bit, but those are just some random thoughts/questions.
Thanks for being here. |
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Helen July 22, 2007
voice_in_d.c. thanks. I appreciate the respect you've shown me here.
Angie, here are my real answers :). I don't know what happens after people die - I don't know if there is such a thing as continued existence after death. If there is, none of us know the answer to where we would spend eternity. I expect you have a belief about that, but since it hasn't happened yet I would respectfully suggest you don't know for sure whether you're right.
It stopped making sense to me a few years ago that there were only two options for after-life existence: eternal bliss or eternal torture. Most things in life are more complex than that. Why would the afterlife be so simplistic? Not to mention that in my view, infinite punishment for a finite crime is unfair and therefore unjust. I don't see how any human can have committed an infinite crime, although I wouldn't rule out that they might have committed a finite one. (Yes, I know the Christian answer - sin/unbelief/rebellion is a crime against an infinite God so it's infinite. But I don't think that is a fair way to analyze the human condition)
So, I don't know what happens after death or even if anything does. And I actually like not knowing because it prevents the problem I see so often with Christians who believe eternal bliss is guaranteed to them: it prevents me de-emphasizing this life or just 'getting through it' while I wait for my blissful eternity to begin.
I'm not saying Christians deliberately de-emphasize this life, but it's always an option, isn't it, with eternity being so much longer than this life? I think it's something Christians can slip into. (Just as they can slip into sin more easily because they will be forgiven, than they would if they believed they would receive the death penalty for sin at the end of the day. Our beliefs affect us by taking away the need to be as careful as if we expected a severe near-term consequence for our behavior)
I don't have that option of de-emphasizing this life, since this life might be all I get - and I'm glad I don't.
If what I said makes you think of Pascal's Wager - I think he was wrong since there are not just two options. If Islam is true then surely Christians are all going to be in hell even though they believed in God like Pascal recommended. So believing in Pascal's God does not guarantee people a way to avoid hell. |
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Kathy July 27, 2007
From my Bible reading today, Jesus speaking to His disciples:
14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
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